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• WP:RFC/J

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This is a discussion to decide the content of the lead section of the Jerusalem article. It was mandated by the Arbitration Committee by motion in January 2013, and its result will be binding for three years. The structure of this page was arrived at through a moderated discussion conducted by Mr. Stradivarius. The RfC began at 11:00, 23 May 2013 (UTC), and will end at 11:00, 22 June 2013 (UTC). It will be closed by a panel of three experienced editors: Keilana, RegentsPark, and Pgallert.

The dispute over the lead of the Jerusalem article is one of the oldest on Misplaced Pages, having first been debated in 2003. Since then it has generated more than 2784 KiB of wikitext in 149 discussion threads, including at least three previous RfCs. The dispute focuses on whether or not it is neutral to say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Detailed information on legal and diplomatic positions held about Jerusalem by the international community can be seen in our article Positions on Jerusalem. — Mr. Stradivarius 11:00, 23 May 2013

Discussion structure

We have included two general discussion questions for you to answer, and seven drafts for you to comment on. Please answer the general questions using the "yes", "no", "other", and "threaded discussion" subsections provided. Similarly, when commenting on the drafts please use the "support", "support with revisions", "oppose", and "threaded discussion" subsections. Also, please note that the drafts may not be intended to be the first sentence of the lead, and that you may support as many drafts as you like.

In order to keep the general discussion questions on topic, we ask you to please refrain from asking new numbered questions after the two we have already worked out. However, you are of course welcome to ask new questions in the general discussion section. Also, regarding the drafts, we agreed in the moderated discussion that we would like editors to bring in fresh opinions. So you may add new drafts using the mechanism provided below. However, to keep us from having many similar drafts, we ask that you add a comment in the "support with revisions" section if you are only suggesting a minor improvement of an existing draft. New drafts should be reserved for major changes from existing drafts.

Finally, rather than include a detailed breakdown of all the talk page arguments made over the years, we have opted to include a summary of what reliable sources say about the subject of the dispute. We hope you will consider the positions of the sources carefully, and make informed comments based on both the sources and on Misplaced Pages policy. — Mr. Stradivarius 15:03, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Source summary

The capital status of Jerusalem is complex, and there have been many different views expressed on it in reliable sources. The participants of the moderated discussion have collaboratively created a summary of these views:

• Jerusalem is the capital of Israel under Israeli law.
• Few or no countries recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
• The capital status of Jerusalem is controversial. It is controversial to refer to Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and it is also controversial not to refer to it as the capital of Israel. It is also controversial to refer to Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine.
• Some reputable sources use "Tel Aviv" as a metonym, as shorthand for 'Israel', and some reputable sources refer to Tel Aviv as the capital of Israel.
• East Jerusalem, which our article treats as part of Jerusalem, is in the Palestinian territories and is occupied by Israel.
• Many sources list Jerusalem as the capital of Israel when there is little room for nuance, but in prose, sources often use qualifiers which show that the status as capital was achieved unilaterally.
• Palestine aspires to make Jerusalem its capital.
• The Israeli government made Jerusalem its seat of government and declared it its capital.
• There is very little support for the Israeli view regarding the sovereignty and capital status of Jerusalem (especially East Jerusalem).

General questions

Question one

Is it compliant with WP:NPOV to state 'Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.'?

Please answer either "yes", "no", or "other" in the relevant section below, giving a detailed rationale for your choice.

Question one: Yes

1. Yes, Israel has a capital and it is in Jerusalem. There's no "point of view" involved here, just simple fact. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Yes, it is strictly compliant with NPOV, although the wisdom of stating it without any reference to those who reject this fact is worthy of discussion. --GHcool (talk) 16:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Yes, all three branches of Israel's government are based in Jerusalem, so that makes it the de facto captial. Jerusalem is considered capital of Israel under Israeli law, so that makes it the de jure capital as well. --PiMaster3 23:28, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Yes, because of the facts PiMaster mentions. This isn't a matter of some group claiming as its capital a place that it doesn't control, or a matter of a country officially making one place its capital while putting its government in a different place; Israel controls and operates its government out of Jerusalem. Nyttend (talk) 05:05, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Yes, (a) Jerusalem never served as the capital city of any other nation, except for the Jebusites from whom King David has conquered the city according to the Bible. (b) Inter alia, Jerusalem indeed serves as Israel's governance hub since 1949, where most high ranked foreign officials arrive for meeting with their Israeli counterparts. Even officials of countries that do not officially acknowledge Jerusalem as Israel's capital do attend such meetings. Thus, not mentioning Jerusalem as Israel's capital is not less than misleading information for layman readers. Instead, it will surely be mentioned that the city serves as a disputed piece of land. ContraApion 16:14, May 24 2013 (UTC)— ContraApion (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
6. Yes, despite what international politics might say, Jerusalem is the capital of the State of Israel, fullstop. 50.140.166.14 (talk) 09:05, 26 May 2013 (UTC) — 50.140.166.14 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Question one: No

1. The statement is too simplistic. A more nuanced statement composed from the sourced statements above would be better. Jehochman 12:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. No. Too simple, no room for details.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. No. Agreed that it is "too simple" and that details or qualifications of that statement should be appended to it. Sure it is a truth, but it's a qualified truth, so logically a qualified truth that doesn't explain the mitigating conditions associated with its truth is a lie by omission. --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. No, that ignores the POV of nearly the entire world. nableezy - 14:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. No, since sources say most of the world doesn't refer to Jerusalem as Israel's capital. --Dailycare (talk) 14:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. Clearly not. --Wickey-nl (talk) 15:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
7. No, too simple - Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
8. Echoing about oversimplifying a complex topic. Collect (talk) 15:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
9. No. It implies East Jerusalem is in Israel, which in international law, it is not. It is not treated as such either in many spheres of Israeli law. The apparently innocuous proposition is, implicitly, territorially appropriative and therefore violates WP:NPOV. Nishidani (talk) 15:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
10. It needs to be neutral and not simplified. Ramaksoud2000 15:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
11. Per WP:V : it does not because East-Jerusalem is part of Jesuralem but is a Palestinian occupied territory. More, WP:NPoV require all reliable points of views are taken into account and this option doesn't take into account the Palestinian point of view and more important the UNO and international community point of view that reject or refuse to validate that de facto situation. Pluto2012 (talk) 16:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
12. No, as per others here. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
13. Capital status is unrecognized by pretty much the entire world save Israel so no.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:30, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
14. "X is Y" reads as a definitive statement of fact, and while that is fine for almost all situations, e.g. "Boston is the capital of Massachusetts", it is controversial here, as it represents a point-of-view that is a distinct minority. Tarc (talk) 17:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
15. No. I didn't dig deep on this topic, but I usually read on news websites (Arabic and English) that Tel Aviv is the capital, but Israeli leaders keep referring to Jerusalem as "the eternal capital of Israel". So I see this as reflecting the Israeli POV in Misplaced Pages words, which is not acceptable. Mohamed CJ (talk) 20:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
16. No. While I agree with the general principle that states are permitted to decide their own capital, this is a special case. The fact that multiple sovereign nations claim the city as their capital, as well as the UN declaration of corpus separatum, means that a large number of references do not treat the statement "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" as an unqualified fact. WP:V and WP:NPOV require that we do the same. Evanh2008  20:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
17. No, too simplistic. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
18. No, because what must follow is: "but it is complicated..." Fylbecatulous talk 20:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
19. No. WP:NPOV says: "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts." Sources do contest that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel or indicate that the matter is in dispute. Sovereignty over Jerusalem, both East and West, is also disputed. After Israel passed laws regarding the sovereignty and status of Jerusalem, the "international community", through UN motions, affirmed that no country had sovereignty over Jerusalem, that no country could unilaterally alter the status of Jerusalem and that any such acts, including laws regarding Jerusalem passed by Israel, were invalid.     ←   ZScarpia   03:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
20. Although legally recognized by Israel as its capital, the eastern portion of Jerusalem is claimed by the Palestinians. To say unequivocally that Jerusalem is "the capital of Israel" within the lead sentence will inevitably give the impression of bias. Kurtis 04:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
21. No. This is a special case that requires qualified language. Otherwise is it not NPOV. Kaldari (talk) 08:30, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
22. No, far too simplistic and partially false. --Felisopus (talk) 12:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
23. It is misleading without appropriate qualifiers and caveats. Oncenawhile (talk) 13:11, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
24. No, without further qualification. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
25. I agree with everyone else, without some sort of qualifier this statement cannot be considered neutral. The lack of qualification implies that the "capital" status is undisputed which is clearly a POV. AgnosticAphid talk 21:06, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
26. No. Oversimplified to the point of being misleading.—S Marshall T/C 22:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
27. No. Capital city is not much like "largest" or "smallest", it is a matter of politics rather than clear facts. Considering the dispute over east Jerusalem, we should definitely not make such a controversial statement --aad_Dira (talk) 08:03, 28 May 2013 (UTC).
28. No. The city called by the state of Israel "Jerusalem" is indeed the capital of the de jure state of Israel according to international law, but it is also true that the boundaries of this city are determined de facto by that state in contravention to international law. This de facto determination extends the area to include land that is not only not part of Israel, but is also militarily occupied by that state in contravention to international law. In addition, most Muslims (and some others) regard the city, not as Jerusalem (a religious term specific to Judaism and Christianity), but as Al-Quds (which refers to the mosque in the city, and to the revered stories about the "night visit" there by the Prophet Muhammad). Furthermore, many millions of people - including the millions who belong to the now internationally recognised "observer state" of Palestine - regard the city of al-Quds as the capital of Palestine. Finally, it is important to recognise the fact that, at present, the search term al-Quds being only used to redirect users to the "Jerusalem" article is in itself offensive to millions of people. Therefore, given the huge and enduring conflict over, not just this disagreement, but also the illegal occupation, and the status of the whole land west of the Jordan in this area, it would be wrong to continue to refer to "Jerusalem" as the capital of Israel. Indeed, in order to be neutral on the subject, it would be far better also to rename the article "Jerusalem" to "Jerusalem or al-Quds". D Dayus (talk) 16:08, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
29. No. As the sources summary shows, saying that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel is a "seriously contested assertion" and therefore a violation of NPOV. Neljack (talk) 03:36, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Question one: Other

1. Is one statement with no context NPOV? Generally, not how NPOV works, but could it be in context, sure. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. This question is irrelevant. During the discussion that led to this RfC, some editors wanted this question alone (rather than also Question 2) to be asked, because if this sentence here didn't comply with NPOV, no sentence including it could comply with NPOV. On the other hand, I (and others) argued that the whole "sentence", including the key phrase though not internationally recognized as such, should be queried, as that's what the article says. The compromise was what we have now -- asking about both. Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Considering a number of people have said "no" to Question 1, but "yes" to Question 2 -- and others have explicitly mentioned context in their remarks -- the idea that this phrase needs to satisfy NPOV in order for any sentence or paragraph that includes this material to satisfy NPOV is far from universal. No one is arguing to remove though not internationally recognized as such from the article, so there is no reason we need to discuss a sentence like this one without the added context in Question 2. -- tariqabjotu 01:13, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
3. It can be NPOV, but it's not helpful. It would be a very bad idea to include the first sentence without following it up with more context, if for no other reason than that it's a complicated situation that readers should understand. Nyttend (talk) 05:06, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
4. It can be NPOV if it is stated that it is the official capital of the State of Israel. It is factual if stated in that manor IMHO.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:26, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Question one threaded discussion

Question two

Is it compliant with WP:NPOV to state 'Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.'?

Please answer either "yes", "no", or "other" in the relevant section below, giving a detailed rationale for your choice.

Question two: Yes

1. Yes. A country decides what it's capital is going to be, and that decision is usually recognized by other countries. When it isn't, a statement is required to explain the issue. Jehochman 12:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Yes, I have no problem with this statement, It is de-facto capital of Israel, not recognized by the majority of countries.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Yes. Agree with the two comments above, though the sentence could be written more accurately and more explanation is expected to follow.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Yes. This is clearly accurate - capitals are self-determined (so even if no-one recognised Jerusalem as the country's capital, it still factually is), but as it isn't widely recognised, it's worth pointing it out. Number 57 14:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Yes, per User:Jehochman. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. Yes, in fact, The Continuum Political Encyclopedia of the Middle East begins its article on Jerusalem in almost exactly the same words (p. 491). --GHcool (talk) 16:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
7. Yes. Jerusalem is Israel's de jure (if not entirely de facto) capital. Israel exercises direct jurisdiction over the city, whether or not that jurisdiction is legitimate or legal. Skimming over the definition of the city as capital, with deference to Palestinian claims of sovereignty, ignores nearly fifty years of status quo. If the current diplomatic standstill continues for another thousand years with Israel in complete control of the city, will we still be dodging the issue of capital status? Evanh2008  20:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
8. Yes. Israel has declared Jerusalem its capital, and Israel's government is located in Jerusalem. Therefore, Jerusalem is Israel's capital. I also see no evidence, nor have I ever seen evidence, that the lack of recognition by other countries or the fact that part of the city is occupied territory (or "not within Israeli territory") affects that. The absence of another capital city located on occupied territory is not proof that a city on occupied territory cannot be a country's capital. This is a statement of an indisputable fact -- that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel -- followed by an acknowledgement that the rest of the world doesn't like it (for reasons noted here and detailed in so many other places on and off Misplaced Pages). That position from the rest of the world can be elaborated upon elsewhere -- and it already is: elsewhere in our current lead, in a footnote linked in the lead, in the body of the article in a dedicated section, and in a separate article. Sufficient context and information is given about this issue for this statement to be in the lead. And making this statement does not mean we'd also be saying Jerusalem is indisputably Israeli; yes, the Israeli government does believe that, but the fact that one agrees with them on one thing (that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel) does not necessarily mean one agrees with them on everything. -- tariqabjotu 02:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
9. Yes, per what I said to the first question, and it shouldn't be that hard to show that lots of governments refuse to acknowledge it. Nyttend (talk) 05:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
10. Yes, but Palestinian claim deserves the same consideration in the incipit. --Felisopus (talk) 12:53, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
11. Yes. Each nation determines its own capital so Jerusalem is Israel's capital, but since the issue is so contentious it can be clarified that most countries doesn't recognize Jerusalem as the capital. —Ynhockey 17:39, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
12. Yes. This is the current wording which is the result of consensus, has been in the article for years and survived multiple RfCs. It is also accurate and supported by sources. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:13, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Question two: No

1. No. Much of what Israel calls "Jerusalem" is not in Israel. By giving the Israeli claim to it being the capital, we imply that it is "Israeli". The overwhelming majority of sources reject that position, and nearly every state on the planet considers East Jerusalem to be in the Palestinian territories, not in Israel. To call it the Israeli capital, even with the condition given, implicitly supports a position that the majority of sources reject. nableezy - 14:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. This is not neutral since sources describe Jerusalem's alleged capital status as a major controversy and Misplaced Pages shouldn't take sides in those, rather we should describe the sides' arguments. Many sources say that Israel claims/considers/proclaims/etc Jerusalem to be its capital, but that this isn't accepted internationally. That should be the gist of our message. If most of the international community don't say Jerusalem is Israel's capital, neither should we.

   Here are a few sources that describe the issue:

   Israel (...) claims it as its capital

   Israel considers all of Jerusalem (...) as its capital, a position not accepted internationally

   While Israel calls Jerusalem its (...) capital, few other states accept that status

   "Jerusalem is Israel's capital and will remain as such." That position is universally rejected by other countries

   page 87: "most States (...) do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, as claimed by Israel"

   Mr Romney referred to Jerusalem as Israel's capital, something the current US administration and most of the international community do not do --Dailycare (talk) 14:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
   

3. No as the first half of the sentence states as a fact a widely rejected fringe position. Something like "Israel and Palestine view Jerusalem as their capital, though its not internationally recognized as such" would be npov. Sepsis II (talk) 14:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. No. People have said countries get to define their own capital. True, but in the modern nation state system they do not get to unilaterally define their own territory. Israel has designated its capital outside of its internationally recognized territory - which is why there is so much controversy over the issue. The statement under discussion assumes the minority Israeli position at the expense of the overwhelming majority opinion and is therefore inconsistent with WP:NPOV. For a fairly standard account of the issue see eg (P R. Kumaraswamy 2009): "The international community, however, does not recognize even West Jerusalem, let alone the post-1967 unified city, as Israel's capital. The United Nations and various other international forums and organisations have adopted innumerable resolutions condemning Israel's policy on Jerusalem. With the exception of a few Latin American countries, most states that have diplomatic ties with Israel consider Tel Aviv to be its capital."

   Israel has declared Jerusalem its capital and moved its government buildings to Jerusalem (these are facts), but what this means for the status of Jerusalem, both in terms of Israeli sovereignty and capital status is not decided. There is a significant divergence of opinions in WP:RELIABLE SOURCES on this and therefore per WP:NPOV we should not be stating it as a fact. A sample of viewpoints diverging from the Israeli opinion of the capital/sovereignty status of Jerusalem can be viewed here.

   Neutral, balanced sources such as the Encyclopaedia Britanica use language that is careful to state only the agreed facts without adopting the opinions of one of the parties ("Jerusalem is the seat of government and the proclaimed capital, although the latter status has not received wide international recognition.") We aim to be a neutral and balanced source and we should be taking a similar approach. Dlv999 (talk) 14:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

5. No ... still misses the point Collect (talk) 15:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. No. The UN has rejected this. Ramaksoud2000 15:49, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
7. No rmally, I would say: "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and Palestine", but this case is not normal. If the whole world except Israel says "Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel", then stating that it is the capital, especially in the first sentence, is simply not true.

   You can only say "Israel has declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel, although this is internationally not recognized", and only combined with the Palestinian counterpart "Palestine has declared Jerusalem the capital of the State of Palestine". Whereby noticed, that the Palestinians speak of Jerusalem and not of East Jerusalem, even when it is East Jerusalem de facto. The whole point should preferably not be mentioned in the lead, but in the body, just because of its controversial character. --Wickey-nl (talk) 15:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

8. No.' A country decides what its capital is going to be' (Jehochman). True, but no country, except Israel here, has decided its capital is outside of its legally defined, internationally recognized and sanctioned borders. That is the problem. You cannot stake your claim on both ground you own but include in the stake another man's contiguous patch. It is therefore, intrinsically, a contested claim. Nishidani (talk) 15:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
9. Jehochman is right that a country decides where to establish its capital and he is right that this choice is then recognized or not by the international community but this solution does not comply with WP:NPoV because it doesn't give the Palesitnian point of view and because it forgets to remind that East-JErusalem is an occupied territory as widely reminded in all UN resolutions regarding the topic. Pluto2012 (talk) 16:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC) 16:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
10. A country can choose its capital within its own undisputed borders or, only with agreement, elsewhere. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
11. Gives insufficient context for this statement to be neutral, though it is better than just saying it is the capital.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
12. Per Nableezy, Sepsis II and Wickey-nl. Mohamed CJ (talk) 20:18, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
13. No, it is still too simplistic, because it leaves out too much context and nuance, and it seems to imply that the lack of recognition is a lesser dispute than it actually is. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
14. No, because 'Jerusalem is the declared capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.' This sentence still cannot be neutrally stated without a modifier or caveat. Fylbecatulous talk 20:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
15. No. The sentence is asserting as a fact that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel when that is something under dispute and therefore breaches WP:NPOV. Many of those voting Yes are using the argument, as the Israeli government and its supporters do, that states have the right to nominate their own capital. That argument is irrelevant as far as WP:NOV is concerned; it doesn't change the fact that the status of Jerusalem IS disputed and therefore should be presented in terms of points of view. The argument is an attempt to bypass WP:NPOV; it's using an "Israeli" argument to argue that the "Israeli" point of view is a fact rather than a point of view. That is, it is pushing a point of view. If there was agreement that Israel had sovereignty over Jerusalem, nobody sensible would object to Israel nominating it's own capital. The point is, though, that there is widespread agreement that Israel does NOT have sovereignty over Jerusalem, nor the right to unilaterally change that city's status, which is why Israel's choice of capital is rejected. Simply, that view could be expressed as that Jerusalem is not Israel's capital because Jerusalem is not Israel's.     ←   ZScarpia   07:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
16. Per my rationale directly above, outright ignoring the Palestinian claim to East Jerusalem creates the perception of a pro-Israel bias. It also flies in the face of international consensus. Kurtis 04:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
17. No. Unless Palestine's claims of Jerusalem as national capital are given equal weight (which I have done in version of the draft) with Israel's, I absolutely and vehemently oppose this, as per Nableezy; This leads to all sorts of problems regarding what's been appropriated, what's been illegally settled, etc. So I think the only possible solution is to list it as capital of both cities, and any article on Jerusalem which doesn't include it as capital of both states is extremely dishonest in my opinion, and also, most likely an attempt to politically rebuke Palestinian statehood on the part of editors.

    Even if Jerusalem is primarily administered by Israel, Palestine still is entitled to it's share of the city as laid out by numerous UN resolutions and propositions, and so it may be the ipso facto capital of Israel, but it's still the de facto capital of Palestine, and almost the whole world save Israel, including the United States, Japan, and United Kingdom recognizes this, not just Iran or Cuba. Let's not forget this. Solntsa90 (talk) 06:33, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

18. No. It still has Misplaced Pages taking a definite stance in the controversy rather than neutrally reporting all points of view according to their weight. Kaldari (talk) 08:34, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
19. No. Our article Capital city says "Although many capitals are defined by constitution or legislation, many long-time capitals have no legal designation as such: for example Bern, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London, Melbourne, Paris, and Wellington. They are recognised as capitals as a matter of convention... " To my mind, it is this word recognised that is the key here - to be able to say that Jerusalem IS the capital, it needs to be recognised as such - so the sentence as proposed is an oxymoron. Oncenawhile (talk) 13:20, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
20. No, I don't think that works either. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:05, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
21. No, this adopts the Israeli position as fact. It needs to say something like "Israel considers Jerusalem to be its capital, although the international community doesn't" in order to be a neutral appraisal of the situation rather than the adoption of a point of view. AgnosticAphid talk 21:09, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
22. No per User:Agnosticaphid. When tied to land disputes, "capital" is not just a term meaning "seat of government"; it implies legitimacy. Marechal Ney (talk) 06:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
23. No.—S Marshall T/C 22:10, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
24. By qualifying that other countries don't recognize something that is normally a domestic decision it interjects other POVs into the lead; such things as recognition of a domestic decision can be carried out in the body of the article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:29, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
25. No. For the same reason I voted against question 1. The problem is not in including how it is internationally recognized, the problem is in trying to classify a point of view as a fact --aad_Dira (talk) 08:06, 28 May 2013 (UTC).
26. No. The city of "Jerusalem" is recognised internationally by some parties. However, the issue isn't one of international recognition, but of a) the debate over its boundaries, b) the fact of the illegal occupation of parts of the city, c) the fact of the long and violent conflict over the status of the city, and d) the fact that one side of this conflict is using the reference to "Jerusalem" as being "the capital of Israel" as an ideological tool to continue and finalise that illegal occupation. D Dayus (talk) 16:26, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
27. No. This is stating as fact that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, which is a "seriously contested assertion" and therefore contrary to NPOV. Stating it's not internationally recognised does not change that - the first part of the sentence states Israel's position (opposed by the international community) as fact, whereas the second part states the international community's position (opposed by Israel) as their opinion. The claim that this meets the dictionary definitions of "capital" does not change the fact that whether it is the capital is "seriously contested"; evidently most states do not agree with Tariqabjotu that a state can use (what they regard as) occupied territory for its capital. Dictionary definitions cannot be expected to deal with this unique situation. Neljack (talk) 04:57, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Question two: Other

1. This has more context then the first but still not enough to determine NPOV. Also, probably too weasily (eg. "generally") to serve in this article well, from a "due" standpoint, or from a three year lockdown standpoint. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Question two threaded discussion

I agree that there are valid objections to this statement. It needs to be expanded to explain that "Jerusalem" is only partly within Israel, as recognized by the world, though Israel asserts that it has all of Jerusalem. This is the very heart of the dispute between Israel and the Palestinians, and it should be clearly explained. Jehochman 20:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this question is proving problematic. "Insufficient context", "too simplistic", and "still not enough context" are among the phrases used to describe the sentence queried here. So, it seems some people are evaluating this sentence as if its in a vacuum. Yes, if this sentence were the only thing the entire article were to say about the capital status of Jerusalem, it would be woefully insufficient. But, I do not see that as the idea being queried; rather, I see this more as the question Do you think an article with this sentence included could possibly satisfy NPOV? In other words, we must assume that further elaboration and detail you would like would be provided along with this statement. This is not an unreasonable assumption because, let's recall, this sentence is currently in the article in the lead. And, as you can see in the article, there's ample context farther in the lead, as well as in a footnote linked from the lead, in the body of the article in a dedicated section, and in the associated article Positions on Jerusalem. All of the information you provided, for example, is explained in the article and, in fact, in the lead too. This question was not intended to override the information already provided in the article. -- tariqabjotu 02:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I object to any such wording regardless of context. If it stated that Jerusalem is the declared/claimed capital of Israel or any other wording that avoids giving it as a fact (i.e. using Misplaced Pages's neutral voice "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel"), then that would've been different. Mohamed CJ (talk) 07:20, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Yes, I know some people would object to this sentence, no matter what information is provided in other nearby sentences. Those people are understandably answering no. I wasn't talking about those people. -- tariqabjotu 15:52, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Mohamed CJ. Let's imagine a parallel, say "Man-made climate change is a hoax". Now we wouldn't say that in an article, since while sources exist that say so, many high-quality sources attribute this view to so-called climate change sceptics. We wouldn't say "Man-made climate change is a hoax, although most climatologists disagree" either, since it suffers from the same problem, namely we'd be presenting as simple fact something that many high-quality sources choose to attribute. Now saying "Climate-change sceptics say man-made climate change is a hoax, although most climatologists disagree" would be perfect. --Dailycare (talk) 16:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Again, I wasn't talking to people like you and Mohamed, who don't believe this sentence could be included in a neutral paragraph or article. You are entitled to your opinion; I've got that. I'm talking to the people who say the problem is that it doesn't give enough context. It is possible they are saying that context must be in the same sentence, but I don't know because they don't say. But having the information in a separate sentence may be able to suffice. Note that though your third sample sentence includes the phrase man-made climate change is a hoax, although most climatologists disagree, I can't think of a neutral paragraph or article where "Man-made climate change is a hoax, although most climatologists disagree." is included as a complete sentence. That's the question here. Do you feel that a lead could be neutral if it included the sentence "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such." in full? I think yes, as I don't consider this analogous to the climate change point, and you think no, because you believe it is analogous. Maybe some people would say no because it is imperative that it include the Palestinian claims in the same sentence (rather than just an adjacent sentence). Fine, and they can believe that.

Either way, I should point out that you were one of the people before the RfC suggesting that we ask about just the phrase Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, even though the words even though it's not internationally recognized as such immediately follow that in the same sentence in our article here. I am very curious to know why you felt that way, even though you have just explicitly acknowledged that adjacent words in the same sentence change the neutrality of a sentence. -- tariqabjotu 16:46, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

My point is precisely that there exists a large set of phrases that cannot be present in an article that complies with WP:NPOV, no matter how much "context" is provided, unless they're attributed. These are phrases like "man-made climate change is a hoax", "The Earth is flat", "the Apollo moon landings never happened", "Bill Clinton was a great president" and "Jerusalem is the capital city of Israel". (for the record, I consider Clinton to have been a great president) In each of these examples, there are sources that support the statements however a large number of reliable sources present these claims in the context of certain specific groups making them, usually also mentioning that these are not generally accepted. Most of the world doesn't refer to Jerusalem as Israel's capital. We shouldn't either. Most of the world doesn't refer to the moon landings as fake. We shouldn't either. However in both cases, we can present these views, attributed to the groups making them. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:33, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

You avoided my second paragraph entirely, as I expected. Anyway...

It is your opinion that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is equivalent to "Bill Clinton was a great president". It is your opinion that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though it is not internationally recognized as such" is equivalent to "Bill Clinton was a great president, but many people disagree." But what is your reason for approaching me in an irrelevant thread to say that? If that's the way you feel about this issue, the No section above is there for you to say that. As I don't feel that way, the Yes section is there for me to state my position. As I have tried to explain, this thread was not about convincing anyone they were wrong, but to consider the question in the way it was intended (i.e. not consider this phrase as if it'd be in a vacuum). There was no reason for you to butt into this thread and repeat your opinion as if it were dogma, just as I'm not using this threaded discussion section to do that with mine. -- tariqabjotu 16:41, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Concerning your 2nd paragraph - clearly if we change the words in a sentence, a non-policy compliant sentence can be transformed into a policy-compliant one. For example, "The Earth is flat" can be so transformed: "the Earth is not flat" Likewise, if we add "Israel insists" to the beginning of the sentence in question, I'd be OK with it. Essentially changing the meaning of a sentence is different from placing it in a different context. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 17:34, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Just... never mind. My question is irrelevant to the outcome of Question 2, and I already have a good idea as to why you wanted to exclude Question 2 earlier anyway. -- tariqabjotu 18:36, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

To Tariqabjotu : I just copy/paste your reasonning : "(...) has declared Jerusalem capital of the government is located in . Therefore, Jerusalem is 's capital. I also see no evidence, nor have I ever seen evidence, that the lack of recognition by other countries or the fact that part of the city is occupied territory (or "not within Israeli territory") affects that. another capital city located on occupied territory a country's capital. This is a statement of an indisputable fact -- that Jerusalem is the capital of the -- followed by an acknowledgement that . That from the rest of the world can be elaborated upon elsewhere -- and it already is: elsewhere in our current lead, in a footnote linked in the lead, in the body of the article in a dedicated section, and in a separate article. Sufficient context and information is given about this issue for this statement to be in the lead. And making this statement does not mean we'd also be saying is indisputably ; yes, the government does believe that, but the fact that one agrees with them on one thing (that Jerusalem is the capital of ) does not necessarily mean one agrees with them on everything. -- tariqabjotu 02:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)"
As a consequence, on the article Israel, you reasonning would be right to argue the proposal is NPoV but on the article Jerusalem, you own reasonning proves it is not WP:NPoV. (This can be discussed on other talk pages.) Pluto2012 (talk) 08:46, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Huh? Are you trying to suggest that my statement is just as applicable to the Palestinian claims to the city as their capital? Your supposedly analogous rewording is drastically different in many key areas. For example, I said "Israel has declared Jerusalem its capital, and Israel's government is located in Jerusalem". How is that comparable to " has declared Jerusalem capital of the government is located in ."? The key word here is despite. Israel declared Jerusalem its capital and its government is there; Palestine declared Jerusalem its capital and its government is not there. How are those analogous at all? And then you've invented this idea that the rest of the world recognizes East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine. Since when? Really, can you just say what you want to say rather than make transparently false equivalences. -- tariqabjotu 16:13, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

The Palestinian Authority didn't declare Jerusalem the capitol of Palestine, the PLO did prior to the PA even existing. nableezy - 16:20, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Tariqabojotu,

this is perfectly the same or at the advantage of the Palestinian claims because many (and I didn't write "rest of the world" - strawman argument) states recognize East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine :

• China supports establishment of Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as capital: special envoy
• We supported and will support the inalienable right of the Palestinian people to an independent state with its capital in East Jerusalem

To this we can certainly add the majority of the Arab and Muslim world and several among the countries of Latine America that also recognized the State of Palestine. We are not far from the representatives of half of the population of the world...

Pluto2012 (talk) 21:14, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

From your comment, That from the rest of the world. You obviously didn't read the corruption of my comment that you generated. But, even if you meant to say some of the world... it seems wholly illogical for a country that doesn't have a blatant axe to grind with Israel to support something for Palestine on the eastern half of the city and not that for Israel on the western half of the city. And I see no evidence that that has occurred. Your links demonstrate that China and Russia support the idea of East Jerusalem as being the capital of a Palestinian state; that does not mean that they believe it is so now. Charles de Gaulle also supported the idea of an independent Quebec, but I doubt anyone would argue that he actually believed it was independent.

And you never address the dissonance between Israel having its government in Jerusalem and Palestine not, which is a key point when we're talking about capital status. The amount of evidence to support the statement Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine and Jerusalem is the capital of Israel will never be equal until either both or neither have their governments in the city. When you made the claim that my remark supporting the neutrality of this statement supported a similar one about Palestine, you glossed over this difference -- and this is and always has been (as if you didn't know, because you've participated in a great many discussions of this type) a key point, as reflected in nearly every definition of a capital city. -- tariqabjotu 22:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Tariqabjotu,

• I didn't mean to say some of the world, I said so ! And precisely : "many countries acknowledge this despite the Israeli occupation (...)". Again, avoid straw man argumentation.
• You wrote that a state can chose where to establish its capital and that it is enough for it. Now, you change your argumentation and say : Israel established its governement there and not Palestine. So you change your argumentation to make as if a fact should strengthen the claim in order to valide it. What you forget is that you argued that the proclamation was enough to admit the capital status to avoid to discuss the fact that East-Jerusalem, part of Jerusalem, is an occupied city that is not Israeli ie the fact that no country can claim her property (her capital) a city that doesn't belong to her.

You have to chose : whether a claim is enough or it is not.

If it is, both situations are equivalent. If it is not, both situations lack consistency because there is no Palestinian institutions in East-Jerusalem and because Israel cannot make her own what doesn't belong to her.

• Regarding the definition issue, if was the real arugment you wanted to put forward, you should have done so immediately either. I just copied/paster your argumentation. Don't add more. You didn't use this before because you know from former discussions that : 1. a definition can have expections and the current case is typically one ; 2. there are other deifnitions ; 3. it was agreed in the RfC discussion that it is WP:OR to make the link between the dictionnary definition and the situation on the ground because if was so obvious, a reminded in WP:V all sources would state that Jerusalem is Israel's capital. If they don't it means that it is because it is not so obvious that the situation complies with the definition.

Pluto2012 (talk) 08:52, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

There is absolutely no point in arguing with you. You and I both know we don't agree on this question, and we never will, and that's why I have made no attempt to convince you to change your mind. But apparently discussing anything with you is a wasteful chore, as you have demonstrated time and again, just as you did now, that you read what you want to read and respond to that. My comment explicitly said Israel has declared Jerusalem its capital, and Israel's government is located in Jerusalem., a statement that cannot be said about Palestine without negating the second half of the sentence. Therefore, the original assertion that my comment is just as applicable to Palestine as it is to Israel is baseless. It's as simple as that, and if you could restrain yourself from putting words in my mouth, this thread -- which is basically you putting more words in my mouth -- would never have started.

As you have before, you've resorted to playing word games. You denied saying rest of the world, but I could point out those precise words in your comment; you claim you didn't mean to say "some of the world", but meant the allegedly completely different "many countries". As you have before, you've ignored counterpoints presented to you. While you were busy distinguishing between tom-ay-to and tom-ah-to, you conveniently neglected to follow up on my rebuttal of your interpretation of China's and Russia's declarations. As you have before, you've pretended I never said something I did actually say. You alleged that I'm changing my argument, although I have referred to the location of government in every remark under this section, including my original supporting statement. You've claimed I've dodged the point about the occupation of East Jerusalem, even though, yes, that too is mentioned in my original comment, with the context that there is no evidence that its illegitimacy affects the capital status. As you have before, you've thrown around irrelevant policies to avoid acknowledging a basic point. It's original research to use dictionary definitions to suggest that location of a country's government has any relevance -- not necessarily is the defining factor; I'm just talking about having relevance -- to a country's capital? Really? And what do you think the idea of a capital is about, if it has nothing to do with the site of a country's government?

As I said, there is no point to this discussion. My comment stands alone, and those who are willing to read it (not you, apparently) can do so, letting it affect them in whatever way they allow it. Meanwhile, you are free to believe whatever fantasy you choose about what I believe and say and what motivates me, and you are free to stay rigid in your views about what is and is not relevant to capital status. Believe it or not, I don't give a damn, as the point of this RfC is not to prove someone right (although I have no doubt someone will arrogantly use this in such a manner), but to find the optimal approach to discussing the capital status in the lead. I have much better things to do than argue with someone who resorts to nonsense tactics to reinforce his point-of-view and who can't even respond to comments as presented. So, I will therefore exit this exercise in futility. -- tariqabjotu 16:23, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Pluto's first language is not English, but he is an excellent and highly knowledgeable (amateur) historian of key I/P events, and deserves better. I suggest toning down your impatient contempt, esp. since you are an administrator, is advisable.

I will answer, briefly, one of the points, or questions you posed, in any case.

"Israel has declared Jerusalem its capital, and Israel's government is located in Jerusalem". How is that comparable to " has declared Jerusalem capital of the government is located in ."?

:::::::Have you never heard of a Government in exile or Rump state? We have a curious mixture of both here (Gaza is a classic rump state, as Joel Peters puts it), and if this mess causes conceptual problems, you should not dismiss other editors who happen to be sensitive to, and unintimidated by, complexity. The Palestinian Authority has an administrative area called the Quds Governorate, and has appointed since 2008 Adnan Husseini as their governor of Jerusalem. He is called precisely that by the New York Times's resident correspondent in Israel, as recently as March 16, 2013. The State of Palestine cannot exercise its 'legal power' in East Jerusalem because that area is under military occupation by a foreign power, as the highest authority in international law has noted. Many on the opposite side of this question have long emphasized that capital city status does not require foreign recognition. Well, I think Pluto is arguing, the Palestinian state does not require Israel, a foreign power, to recognize its claims as a prerequisite for their legitimacy either. These points are reasonable, entertained by numerous scholars, and deserve respect in an encyclopedic venue which demands of editors that they do not allow their personal passions to interfere with the obligation to be neutral, esp. where two nationalisms, as here, are in conflict, and we must represent their claims and positions impartially. No need to reply, of course.Nishidani (talk) 17:30, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh. My. God. How can I say this more simply? Pluto asserted that my comment supports the idea that Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine if you essentially replace "Israel" with "Palestine" and make a few minor changes. Except that's obviously not true because you can't change "Israel's government is located in Jerusalem" from my statement to "Palestine's government is located in Jerusalem" . That's it. End of story. There's no equivalence. The assertion he raised is baseless. And so the matter is done. While the italicized comment he modeled after my statement may (or may not) be valid -- and I don't care to argue about that -- it is obviously incorrect to say that that's my reasoning; it's his. You can say how you feel about the actual question under No, as I will say how I feel about it under Yes. You can pontificate about rump states and governments-in-exile in your own thread, and I won't care. I will not argue with you about that, because I know I won't change your mind, as I'm not changing mine either. This thread here was not an invitation for you to come to the aid of one of your friends and again lecture me about how right you are. -- tariqabjotu 18:33, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Let's try to keep God out of it- he, or more probably his soi-disant representatives, have done far too much mischief in Jerusalem as it is:) If you read what I wrote, there was no 'lecture about' how right I might be. I wasn't asserting I have the truth: I was asking you for some flexibility in understanding that other people are not always wrong, and therefore should be taken seriously when, as here, they are serious. Perhaps you might mull Montefiore’s remark on the city whose status we are trying to define, which I cited above (‘each of which believes the city belongs to them alone; a city of many names-yet each tradition is so sectarian that it excludes any other.’) Israel's position is that the 'city belongs to 'them' alone. Your position supports that, and, as per Montefiore, has a long history at its back. The name Jerusalem is not a rigid designator operatively, to abuse Saul Kripke's term. But, fine, that's it.Nishidani (talk) 19:21, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Israel's position is that the 'city belongs to 'them' alone. Your position supports that

Oh, you want to get the last word in so you can say that? Again, do not put words in my mouth. I have never said that, nor do I believe that. The last sentence of my comment under Yes even explicitly says that I don't. Stop projecting what you believe agreement with this particular sentence implies with what people who actually agree with it state. It's not that hard. -- tariqabjotu 21:19, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

An inference ('your position supports') is not a quotation (putting words into someone's mouth). 'Jerusalem is the capital of Israel' entails' East Jerusalem' is part of the capital of Israel. The entailed proposition is the official position of Israel. On this simple issue the community is divided: one group found no entailment implied by the formulation, the other sees this implication as violating WP:NPOV. 'Beliefs' are not the problem, but what otherwise simple sentences might or might not imply. This ambiguity is endemic to natural languages, and the reason why editors have to wrestle with otherwise ostensibly innocuous sentences to hone a neutral text. Goodwill should be able to find a fair compromise. Nishidani (talk) 10:14, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

East Jerusalem and West Jerusalem are not separate cities at this time, so, yes, when I describe Jerusalem, I'm describing the whole city. What do you want me to instead say? West Jerusalem is the capital of Israel? That makes no sense. West Jerusalem is now just a concept, an area that is part of the unified (legitimate or otherwise) city of Jerusalem; it is not its own city. I also would not call West Berlin the capital of Germany for similar reasons. Acknowledging that West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem operate together as one city of Jerusalem is not pushing the Israeli point of view or suggesting that this is how things should be; it's simply recognizing the reality that has been in place for decades now. -- tariqabjotu 03:42, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Drafts

Drafts at a glance

We have created seven drafts for you to comment on. Please note that not all of these drafts are intended to be the first sentence of the lead. Some are intended to come later on in the lead, so please bear this in mind when you comment. Also, you may support as many drafts as you like. If you think a draft has merit, then please support it regardless of whether you have also supported other drafts. This will help us to judge what features of what drafts have the widest support, so that we can create new composite drafts if desired. And finally, please give detailed rationales for your choice of draft, based on Misplaced Pages policy. Some applicable policies and guidelines include:

• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view
• Misplaced Pages:Verifiability
• Misplaced Pages:No original research
• Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lead section

Below is a list of all the drafts constructed for easy comparison. To comment on a draft, please use the discussion sections further down the page. — Mr. Stradivarius 15:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

1. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such. (discuss)
2. Jerusalem is a city in Israel and the Palestinian territories. Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Palestine has designated Jerusalem its capital, though neither the Israeli or Palestinian claims have gained international recognition. (discuss)
3. Jerusalem is the seat of the Israeli government, but its status as the capital of Israel has been unrecognized abroad. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians, who also see the city as the capital of a future independent state of their own. (discuss)
4. Both Israel and Palestine claim Jerusalem as their respective capital, but the city isn't recognized internationally as a capital. (discuss)
5. Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital and seat of the Israeli government and the proclaimed capital of Palestine, though the international community does not recognize either proclamation or ownership of the city. (discuss)
6. Jerusalem has long been a point of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, with both Israelis and Palestinians seeing it as capital of their respective states. Although the Israeli government operates out of the city and has called the city its capital for decades, most nations do not recognize this status. (discuss)
7. Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally. (discuss)
8. Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The status of Jerusalem has long been a point of contention throughout history and in recent years in the context of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians, who also see the city as the capital of a future independent state of their own. (discuss)
9. Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The status of Jerusalem has often been a point of contention, most recently in the context of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions in the city and considers East Jerusalem, which it controls since the Six Day's War, as an integral part of its capital. The Palestinian authorities however claim Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state. Neither claim is widely recognized internationally. (discuss)
10. Jerusalem is a disputed municipality within the region of Palestine. It is one of the oldest continuously inhabited municipalities in the world, considered holy by each of the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The city is currently divided between the state of Israel and the Palestinian National Authority, both of which officially recognize Jerusalem as their nation's capital. (discuss)
11. Jerusalem is a city located in Israel and Palestine, and is claimed as national capital by both states. One of the oldest continuously inhabited urban areas in the world, Jerusalem is considered holy by each of the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It is located in the Judean Mountains (also known as the Hebron Hills), between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea. Jerusalem is both Israel and Palestine's largest city in terms of both population and area, with a population of 801,000 residents over an area of 125.1 km2 (48.3 sq mi). (discuss)
12. The Israeli government considers Jerusalem to be its capital. The Palestinian Authority considers Jerusalem to be its capital. (discuss)
13. Jerusalem is the ancient capital of Judea, and is a "holy city" to three major religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Modern Israel claims it as its capital, although this is not generally recognised by other nations. Palestinians have also said they wish it to be the capital of a future Palestinian state. (discuss)
14. Jerusalem is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world. Nestling in the Judean Mountains, between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea, it straddles Israel and the West Bank and its combined population makes it the largest city in that region. It is deemed sacred by the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam-each of whose traditions single it out for a foundational event: the chosen seat of David’s kingdom, it became successively the hearth of Judaism, the site of the crucifixion of Jesus, and of Muhammad’s visionary ascension. Powers-pagan, religious and secular-have vied to conquer and reconquer it intermittently for millenia, and each has left its mark on the city's monumental architecture, rich mosaic of cultures, languages, ethnic groups and identities. Both Israel and the State of Palestine claim the city as their capital, the former maintaining its primary governmental institutions there, while the Palestinian National Authority foresees Eastern Jerusalem as its seat of power. Neither claim is widely recognized internationally, and its ultimate status is to be determined by peace negotiations. (discuss)

Draft one

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft one

1. Factually correct - capitals are self-determined, so what the international community thinks is irrelevant to that fact. However, that it is a controversy is also worth mentioning. Number 57 14:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. The Continuum Political Encyclopedia of the Middle East opens its article on Jerusalem in almost exactly the same way (p. 491). it is is incredibly succinct and accurate on Jerusalem's status. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. As I expected during the discussion leading to this RfC, this draft is handicapped by the fact that it doesn't explicitly elaborate with the additional information that would be included along with it. But, we need to remember that this option is basically just the status quo. And when you look at that status quo, you see an entire paragraph in the lead (Today, the status of Jerusalem remains one of the core issues in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The international community has rejected the latter annexation as illegal and treats East Jerusalem as Palestinian territory occupied by Israel. ) that includes some of the same information explicitly stated in other drafts that people like. This draft was never intended to be a request to excise that additional background information. -- tariqabjotu 02:27, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

   That being said, my support of this draft doesn't mean I believe it's the best. The way the lead is written now is definitely not perfect, if only because this sentence does not work well as the first sentence of the article. But I would support a version of the lead with this sentence and some of the same points already included elsewhere in the lead, even though I believe there may be better options presented here (i.e. more descriptive drafts, like Draft 7). -- tariqabjotu 19:10, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

4. assuming this is just the first sentence, and not the entire intro paragraph. It is factual, and is the way Jerusalem is described in many sources, per above, and assuming this is just the first sentence, the lack of recognition can be mentioned in a subsequent one. Prague Drinking Team (talk) 18:24, 24 May 2013 (UTC) — Prague Drinking Team (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
5. Factually correct and succinct, and this is what we've had for a long time and there wasn't a problem with it. I support further clarification, as detailed as the community determines, but it shouldn't be right there in the leading sentence, which should be short, accurate, and should include the most important points (in this case the two stated points). —Ynhockey 17:42, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
6. As mentioned above, this wording is factual and supported by the sources. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:15, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft one with revisions

Oppose draft one

1. Oppose as the first half of the sentence states a widely rejected fringe position as a fact in violation of NPOV. Sepsis II (talk) 14:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" shouldn't be stated in wikipedia's neutral voice since most countries don't refer to Jerusalem as Israel's capital. --Dailycare (talk) 14:49, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Oppose because of the NPOV statement (per question 1 vide supra). This draft lacks all context that would adequately summarize and explain the issue.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Per comments on if it is NPOV above. nableezy - 15:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Oppose, while it might be viewed as being technically correct by some, there are so many better choices that we might as well eliminate it. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. As explained above, not the whole truth. Thus factually not correct. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
7. A country decides where to establish its capital and this choice is then recognized or not by the international community but this solution does not comply with WP:NPoV because it doesn't give the Palestinian point of view and because it forgets to remind that East-Jerusalem was chosen as capital of the State of Palestine as well and also is an occupied territory. (This last point is widely reminded in all UN resolutions regarding the topic.) Pluto2012 (talk) 16:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
8. Per reasons here and responses to question about NPOV above. Significant omissions are made.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
9. This is the third question out of three in which my objection is about the statement that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". My rationale is as above. Mohamed CJ (talk) 20:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
10. Oppose, as being too simplistic, and thus inferior to other draft options that are below. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
11. Oppose, echoing what I said above in answer to question one re: NPOV. The first half remains POV and with the additional text, the entire statement now becomes paradoxical. How can Jerusalem be an unrecognized capital? Complications alone make it so, which leads one down the garden path of POV explanations to give context. Fylbecatulous talk 21:26, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
12. Per my answers to the two questions in the above section. Kurtis 04:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
13. Oppose, per NPOV discussions above. Kaldari (talk) 08:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
14. Oppose, far too simplistic. --Felisopus (talk) 12:54, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
15. Per comments above. Oncenawhile (talk) 13:31, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
16. Oppose. Not particularly good wording, and its overall effect is impossible to judge here given the lack of context. Surely this is not going to be the whole intro paragraph? Without knowing what's going to be in the next sentences, I certainly can't support this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:27, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
17. Oppose without further qualification. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
18. Oppose on NPOV grounds. It doesn't mention who claims the first phrase, and denigrates the second phrase with 'as such'. Nonetheless, it is the most succinct lede statement, and easily corrected with further qualification and improved wording.CasualObserver'48 (talk) 08:41, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft one threaded discussion

Draft two

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem is a city in Israel and the Palestinian territories. Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Palestine has designated Jerusalem its capital, though neither the Israeli or Palestinian claims have gained international recognition.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft two

1. This draft actually says where Jerusalem is and how it functions. 3rd choice. nableezy - 14:21, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft two with revisions

1. This sounds good, although it may be read as endorsing Israel's universally rejected claim to having Jerusalem as its capital. Suggest to re-phrase this to " (...) has included it within its proclaimed capital city. Palestine has designated Jerusalem (...)". Further, saying the Western half is "in Israel" is also something that't not accepted by any country aside from Israel itself. Saying the city is "in the Middle-East" or similar would work. --Dailycare (talk) 14:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. I think this draft does a good job of neutrally summarizing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (and ongoing international situation), but elements of political facts (i.e. defining the nature of the capital status) and historical context is lacking. I proposed a combination of these elements in Draft 8.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Jerusalem is before all one of the oldest city in the world and the most symbolic one. The current Israeli-Palesitian conflict should not hide this per WP:Due weight. Anyway the presentation of the other facts is precise enough and consice to comply with WP:Due weight and complies with WP:NPoV. A merging in draft 7 would be good. Pluto2012 (talk) 16:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Could use some clarifications and noting the historical status of the city would be important in the opening of the article. It's mainly notable for being an old-ass city that a bunch of people can't stop arguing about.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. This is more of a provisional support in the absence of anything else which better captures the issue in its entirety. One important addition to make is the fact that the Palestinians only claim East Jerusalem as their capital, rather than the whole city. Kurtis 05:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
6. With draft five: Jerusalem is a middle east city and the proclaimed capital of Israel and Palestinian territories, though the international community does not recognize either proclamation or ownership of the city. --Felisopus (talk) 13:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
7. I found myself oscillating between support and oppose on this, and both were weak. I think it could work, but it gives kind of a muddy picture compared to some of the other options imo. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:15, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
8. This deals best with the controversies, ie it is most balanced and includes all the main points re both claims, but is perhaps too focused on them. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:20, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
9. Includes valid perspective, but the city predates any borders it now straddles. Its significance to Abrahamic religions is older and more broadly based than heavily weighted post 1967 happenings. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 09:20, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft two

1. Jerusalem is occupied by force and formally never recognized as Israeli territory, even West Jerusalem. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. I don't like the Palestinian claim over Jerusalem (there's no way they'll ever get West Jerusalem in any peace agreement). --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. I think that the official British position is that in neither such place as it was meant to be a Corpus Separatum. "Straddles the border of" or some such might get round that problem.--Peter cohen (talk) 18:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. This is only a weak oppose. I know what is meant by saying that it is a city in two places, but that's a really awkward way of saying it. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. This version introduces the status of Jerusalem as Israel's capital as being with aggression (Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem... and now ...and included it within its capital city). I don't see that as a neutral way to introduce that point. Further, it doesn't make clear a key difference between the Israeli and Palestinian capital claims: that Israel's government is actually located in the city. -- tariqabjotu 02:35, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
6. Awkward and too much focussed on the wiki-conflict and on striking a "balance" about it at the expense of simplicity and clarity. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:29, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
7. Unclear, because it does not say that Israel considers all of Jerusalem, including West Jerusalem, its capital. DGG ( talk ) 20:28, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
8. Violates Misplaced Pages:NPOV by stating that it is in both Israel and the PT. Taking a moderate position is still taking a position. The draft is also terribly unwieldy. Marechal Ney (talk) 06:14, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
9. Lots of problems with this draft. For one, its "facts" are actually what is in the heart of the dispute—where East Jerusalem is in the Palestinian Territories, or not. The very term "Palestinian Territories" is largely an Israeli term, and it officially does not include East Jerusalem (but this is disputed, therefore POV). Many countries, on the other hand, refer to the territories as the Occupied Territories, a term that clearly includes East Jerusalem is in itself disputed (and therefore POV). This brings me to the next point, the term "occupied" is another term that's loaded and disputed. It is not therefore POV. The final point, also a clear factual error, is the linkage between anything 1967 and the status of Jerusalem as capital. Before 1967, East Jerusalem was ruled by Jordan and its status as capital of Israel was exactly the same as it is today (official, but disputed by some). So any information about 1967 is not relevant to the status of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. —Ynhockey 17:33, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
10. I might be missing something obvious, but where's the source that says "Jerusalem is a city in Israel and the Palestinian territories"? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:17, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft two threaded discussion

GHcool, what does not liking the claim have to do with it being the claim? And to that point, I dont know that Template:Rtl-lang (al-quds al-sharif, commonly translated as simply Jerusalem), which is what was proclaimed as the capital, even refers to West Jerusalem. nableezy - 17:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

GHcool. When Ben-Gurion declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel, in 1949, he was referring to the Jerusalem within Israel, on Israel's side of the armistice line. When Palestinians in their declaration of 1988 declared Jerusalem as their capital, they were mimicking the same device. The positions of the negotiators for Israel and the State of Palestine have been, since 1993, when the Oslo Accords relegated the final status of Jerusalem to the end of the peace process negotiations, consistent and are as follows:-

• Israel: All of Jerusalem, West and East, is Israel’s eternal, undivided capital. All of Jerusalem must remain under Israeli sovereignty forever.
• PLO: All of East Jerusalem (the area beyond the Green Line) is the capital of the Palestinian state. All of the territories of East Jerusalem must be under Palestinian sovereignty forever. This includes the Jewish “neighborhoods” in East Jerusalem.
• This has been confirmed as recently as 2011 by Saeb Erekat, who went on the record as affirming that by Jerusalem as its capital, the Palestinians mean ‘East Jerusalem’ within the 1967 borders, just as Ben-Gurion, in declaring Jerusalem the capital of Israel in 1949-50, was referring implicitly to Western Jerusalem.

So, the Palestinian position is that they do not intend to take over West Jerusalem, as Israel took over and cleansed the Palestinian Arab suburbs of Katamon and Malha in that sector in 1948-9. History moves on, and we do well to follow in its wake, picking up the details thrown overboard, rather than raise fearful spectres of awesomely undocumented claims. Nishidani (talk) 19:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

All of the proclamations, etc, should be in the body of the article. The lead should succinctly and clearly summarize the facts. As of this writing, Jerusalem is (both in theory and in practice) the capital of no country other than Israel. --GHcool (talk) 19:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I.e. the fact you like should be in the lead. The fact you dislike, that part of Jerusalem is not in Israel, should be swept down the page, to some note in the body of the article. That too fails WP:NPOV, by selectively privileging one fact over another. Nishidani (talk) 22:05, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I think Nishidani was right in saying that the PLO merely claims East Jerusalem as their capital and they do not intend to take over West Jerusalem. Two things have to be said. 1: Parts of West Jerusalem are still claimed, although not as part of the capital; 2: Large parts of municipality Jerusalem were actually not Jerusalem at all before Israel captured them. --Wickey-nl (talk) 09:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

@Tryptofish, would saying Jerusalem is a city split between Israel and the Palestinian territories be better? Or is there some other phrasing you would find better? @DGG, would rephrasing the sentence to say Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within an expanded Jerusalem municipality, which it has designated its capital satisfy your objection? Or do you have some other suggestion? nableezy - 01:58, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

For me, yes that would help. However, I still prefer some of the drafts below, overall. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:07, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

On second thought, I think there might be a problem with implying that there is some kind of border running through the city, with Israeli Jerusalem on one side and Palestinian Jerusalem on the other, which is what that sounds like, and which is clearly not true. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

It is true, though it isn't a border. The Green Line separates the portion of "Jerusalem" that is in the Palestinian territories and the portion that is in Israel. nableezy - 01:01, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

The Green Line separates the two territories occupied by the two respective parties at the time of signing. It does not recognize any Israeli territory, especially not Jerusalem. Actually and interestingly, this also means that East Jerusalem is neither in the oPt nor in Israel, despite all UN resolutions! --Wickey-nl (talk) 10:45, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, I must add, unless you define the oPt as the Palestinian side of the Green Line. But that is not the original meaning of it. In fact, UN resolutions did include East Jerusalem in the oPt, but AFAIK there has never been a resolution that says that Jerusalem or even West Jerusalem is Israeli territory. --Wickey-nl (talk) 11:04, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

You know, very soon after I said that, about no border, it occurred to me that I would get called out on the Green Line. However, I think that the very fact that we have to go back-and-forth on how to word it indicates a shortcoming of this draft. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:18, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, thanks for your comments. nableezy - 17:34, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft three

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem is the seat of the Israeli government, but its status as the capital of Israel has been unrecognized abroad. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians, who also see the city as the capital of a future independent state of their own.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft three

1. Excellent. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Reads fine to me. Historical context would be provided in the lead, just as it is now. -- tariqabjotu 02:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Seems ok to me. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
4. I think this is OK and policy-compliant, although draft seven is stylistically superior. --Dailycare (talk) 19:16, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft three with revisions

1. Support, but would replace "with Palestinians" with "with the Palestinian authorities" - the Jerusalem case won't be negotiated with the Palestinian people(s) as a whole. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Support as closest to the actual state of affairs. Collect (talk) 15:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. I like this a lot, but its less succint than Draft One. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. With the revision suggested above this would also be a suitable addition.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. I could live with this but I would prefer one of the options below that mention the historical and religious context.--Peter cohen (talk) 18:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. I feel the same way that Peter cohen does. It's also rather simplistic in treating the view of the international community as monolithic. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
7. I think draft 2 is best so far but i could live with this subject to the base tenet that a good draft must include all the key points in Mr Stradivarius' "Source Summary" at the top of this page. In this draft the missing point is East Jerusalem - e.g. "East Jerusalem is internationally recognised as being in the occupied Palestinian territories". Oncenawhile (talk) 23:24, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
8. Other than the stated NPOV problems, I agree with GH; I also agree with Peter. But mostly I agree with Trypto and the simplistic treatment of the international views in all iterations. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 10:48, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
9. I think this needs a copyedit but, in terms of the information it coveys, it does the job. Formerip (talk) 11:19, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
10. Very good. I would just note that the state of international recognition should be more clear --aad_Dira (talk) 08:22, 28 May 2013 (UTC).
11. This is a reasonably good starting point, but there are a few issues. The word "also" doesn't make sense, as Israel does not see it as a "capital of a future independent state"; Israel already exists as an independent state. Also, I think it would be helpful if the lead section mentioned the city's status as capital under Israeli law, maybe between the words "status as the capital of Israel" and "has been unrecognized abroad". I also agree with Skäpperöd's point above. An effort should probably be made to make this less wordy, perhaps by removing the word "Instead, ", replacing "the status of Jerusalem" with "the city's status", possibly switching "has been" with "is" if that makes grammatical sense (?). --Yair rand (talk) 07:58, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft three

1. Not clear enough. Everybody will not make the link between the "seat of the governement" and the capital status; even less that according to some definitions, the capital is where the embassies stand and not where the government seats... Pluto2012 (talk) 16:53, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Too much focussed on the details of the conflict. There are more important things to say about Jerusalem than these details about what functions of a capital it has or doesn't have. This should not be the first sentence. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:30, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft three threaded discussion

• The phrase "has been unrecognized" doesn't make sense. Do you mean "is unrecognized" or "has not been recognized"? — This, that and the other (talk) 01:52, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  I don't think it makes a difference. They all read as meaning the same thing, even if one of those formulations may (or may not) be incorrect. -- tariqabjotu 02:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Concerning the "too much focused on details", this RFC is largely about how to express the capital/seat-of-government point. The article itself naturally does cover also other ground.--Dailycare (talk) 19:18, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft four

^ view all drafts

Both Israel and Palestine claim Jerusalem as their respective capital, but the city isn't recognized internationally as a capital.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft four

Support draft four with revisions

1. More succinct then suggestions above, but "isn't recognized as a capital" is a bit confusing. Noting that the claim is what is not recognized would be better. We should also mention the de-facto control of the city by Israel.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. For one thing, please change "isn't" to "is not". I recognize that this draft would not be the opening of the lead, so how well it would work depends a lot on what comes before it. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. My suggested revision: "Both Israel and Palestine claim Jerusalem as their respective capital, but the city is not recognized internationally as such". Using "capital" twice reads awkwardly and is redundant. If "as such" would have worked in earlier drafts or questions, why not now? Otherwise, I like this as being rational and well stated. Fylbecatulous talk 22:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft four

1. Oppose: "Palestine" is a virtual and/or future state/concept. What there is now should not be described as some "Palestine" claiming a capital. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Jerusalem actually is the capital of Israel right now and not the capital of Palestine at the moment. The article ought to reflect this reality. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Probably my last choice. Like Draft 2, but in a more overt fashion here, this puts the Israeli and Palestinian claims to Jerusalem as capital on an (unnecessarily) equal level. Israel's government is located in the city, Palestine's is not. That is a key difference when we're talking about capital city and that needs to be noted, or at the very least implied with slightly different language referring to the two claims. -- tariqabjotu 02:43, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Too simplistic - ignores most of the key points in Mr Stradivarius' "Source Summary" at the top of this page which are critical to a reader's understanding. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:26, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Other contenders are better, and the second phrase needs a 'for either' at its end. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 10:59, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
6. Although a decent starting point, it doesn't give enough context to the city, or its historical and cultural significance.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:38, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft four threaded discussion

The view that "Palestine" is not a state is something without any basis in the sources. Palestine is a state that has been recognized by the vast majority of other states. It isnt a country (it doesnt control its territory, it doesnt exercise a monopoly on violence, ...), but it certainly is a state. nableezy - 16:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Two countries vie for the city, so 'Israel and Palestine' is fine. The problem is stylistic. I.e.capital in 'but the city isn't recognized internationally as a capital,' is repetitive, since the word was already used in the preceding sentence. I suggest reformulating as 'Both Israel and Palestine claim Jerusalem as their respective capital, though neither claim is internationally recognized.}} or something like that (there I go, objecting to repeating, and replacing one type with another (viz.claim).Nishidani (talk) 16:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand this proposal. Is this supposed to be the first sentence of an article? If yes, it clearly doesn't work. It might work as a sentence somewhere within a lead paragraph, but that's impossible to judge without context. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:32, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft five

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital and seat of the Israeli government and the proclaimed capital of Palestine, though the international community does not recognize either proclamation or ownership of the city.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft five

1. Neutral, informative, with no room for misinterpretation. Sepsis II (talk) 14:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. This one seems fine in its current state, at best one could switch "seat of the Israeli government" with "the proclaimed capital" to be clear that it is de-facto the seat of the Israeli government and not just proclaimed as such.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft five with revisions

1. Question of ownership was missing in draft 3. either should be both. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Another acceptable option thay could be merged in draft 7. Pluto2012 (talk) 16:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. With draft two, simple and clear. Jerusalem is a middle east city and the proclaimed capital of Israel and Palestinian territories, though the international community does not recognize either proclamation or ownership of the city. --Felisopus (talk) 13:03, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Meh, I dunno. Too many "proclaimed" and "proclamations" for my taste. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft five

1. Oppose: "Palestine" is a virtual and/or future state/concept. What there is now should not be described as some "Palestine" claiming a capital. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Jerusalem actually is the capital of Israel right now and not the capital of Palestine at the moment. The article ought to reflect this reality. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. I think the language about proclamation and ownership creates more problems than it solves. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. The word "proclaimed" is so forced in this draft and makes this sentence read terribly. -- tariqabjotu 02:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Too simplistic - ignores most of the key points in Mr Stradivarius' "Source Summary" at the top of this page which are critical to a reader's understanding. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:27, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
6. Oppose for the reasons stated by others. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 11:27, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft five threaded discussion

The first two opposing !votes are detached from reality and should be ignored as such. Sepsis II (talk) 18:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

'Jerusalem actually is the capital of Israel right now and not the capital of Palestine at the moment.'

GHcool. Well, in what capital of the world do you find the utilities divided nationally? East Jerusalem's predominantly Palestinian sector has its water and electricity supplied by the Palestinian Authority's grids; the allocation of 'Jerusalem' municipal funds runs 92-94% overwhelmingly in favour of Jewish residents, to the West or in the encircling settlements. Sewage and road infrastructure idem: they're 'their problem'. The Jerusalem muncipality refuses most applications for building permits for Palestinians in East Jerusalem: 33% of its housing infrastructure is thus illegal and can be bulldozed on court order. The whole curriculum of Palestinian East Jerusalem schools is based on the curriculum established by the PA in the West Bank, by another country. The fact is, while Israeli law applies to East Jerusalem's status as part of Israel's unilaterally declared 'eternal and unified Jerusalem', in de facto terms it is abandoned to its own resources, and the equal application of the laws of Israeli does not apply. That is a very peculiar state of law(lessness) for a putatively united capital city, incongruent with all other cases I am familiar with.Nishidani (talk) 19:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Jerusalem was the capital of Israel since 1948. It remains the capital today. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel despite any injustices Israel may or may not have committed against Palestinians. I will accept that it is the capital of Palestine only when Palestine's seat of government actually exists in Jerusalem. --GHcool (talk) 19:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

West Jerusalem, not Jerusalem, was the capital of Israel since 1948. The use of Orient House as an official office of representation in East Jerusalem by the Palestinian Authority was denied by the occupying power under Ariel Sharon (the wiki article doesn't tell you the full story). The State of Palestine cannot have its government in East Jerusalem simply because the occupying power refuses to allow it to host diplomatic functions there, its role being limited to supplying its Arab residents with the water, electricity etc., that the occupying power doesn't worry about.Nishidani (talk) 22:18, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

As with proposal four, please clarify if this is meant to become the actual first sentence or whether it should be placed somewhere else (and if the latter, what will the first sentence be?) As a first sentence, I'd oppose it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:34, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft six

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem has long been a point of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, with both Israelis and Palestinians seeing it as capital of their respective states. Although the Israeli government operates out of the city and has called the city its capital for decades, most nations do not recognize this status.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft six

1. I'll give this draft weak support because I strongly disagree with the oppose rationales that have been given prior to my timestamp. However I would definitely prefer some of the more nuanced and detailed versions below. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. I can't for the life of me understand what some of the opposers are talking about. Too pro-Palestinian. The Government of Israel is based out of Jerusalem. Ok... Are you reading the correct draft? It says that. Afaik, the Israeli government operates in the city. Saying something operates in a city and out of a city is functionally equal. Some of the others seem equally puzzling. -- tariqabjotu 02:51, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Not my first choice, but I could live with this, as long as it's not the 1st sentence of the Lead. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft six with revisions

1. I think this draft does a good job of neutrally summarizing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (and ongoing international situation), but elements of political facts (i.e. defining the nature of the capital status) and historical context is lacking. I proposed a combination of these elements in Draft 8.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Should not be the first sentence, but is a helpful clarification. It would need to be broadened though, as the drafting suggests that the capital status is the main bone of contention in the conflict over Jerusalem, which it is not. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:31, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
3. I overall support with three wording changes. First, put "Control of" at the beginning of the sentence to clarify. Second, I would suggest changing "Israelis and Palestinians" to something less sweeping; perhaps "many Israelis and Palestinians" or "Israel and the Palestinian Authority". Third, at the advice of one of the opponents, "out of" should be changed to "in", not to avoid bias, but because the latter preposition makes more sense. Marechal Ney (talk) 06:21, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Agree with not being the 1st sentence. Its 2nd sentence suffers from the missing 'because' phrase at its end. Without reasons included, it is incomplete and seems overly lachrymose. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 02:25, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft six

1. Too pro-Palestinian. The Government of Israel is based out of Jerusalem.Chris Troutman (talk) 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. "Israelis," "Palestinians" and "most nations" do not hold unambiguous collective opinions as if they were borgs. Also, the Israeli government is not claiming J. as "its" capital, but as the capital of Israel. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Afaik, the Israeli government operates in the city. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. As of this writing, Palestine does not operate out of Jerusalem and therefore cannot reasonably called its "capital" right now. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Seems too POV in its description of the Israeli claims. Seems to be trivializing Israeli control when that is actually a significant detail.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. Dispersive. --Felisopus (talk) 13:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft six threaded discussion

The rationals behind opposition votes 1 and 4 doesn't seem to match this draft. To Wickey-nl, yes it does operate "in", but it also operates out of (out over the nation) Jerusalem too so the grammar is fine. Sepsis II (talk) 18:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft seven

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft seven

1. I think this is my favourite of the various original seven drafts though there are interesting developments below. Jerusalem was fought over long before the modern State of Israel was thought of, let alone the State of Palestine. The religious context explains a lot of the modern dispute and avoids WP:Recentism. (Equally I think that there are problems with Rome where the city being the core of an ancient imperial state and its role as the base of the largest branch of one of the major religions are more important than its being the capital of a medium-sized modern state.)--Peter cohen (talk) 13:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. SecondThird choice, almost a perfect draft, though I would like to see something on the city being in Israel and the Palestinian territories. nableezy - 14:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. This is a very good draft that manages to both comply with policy and present the situation dispassionately in deep context. --Dailycare (talk) 14:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. 1. Per WP:due weight : the religious history of the city touches several billions people and is thousands years old ; the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict and its political impacts touches a few millions people and a hundred year old. -> That is totally in compliance with wikipedia principles to start talking about this and discussing about the capital issue later 2. Per WP:NPoV, both claims should be placed on the same level because : both Israelis and Palestinians claim Jerusalem as the capital of their State (max. 10,000,000 people each) ; both are supported by their allies (of course for a political question) but all neutral countries and the majority of the internatinal community (the remaining billions people) do no recognize one claim or the other and ask the problem is solved through peace negociations. Pluto2012 (talk) 16:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Factually accurate and NPOV. Religion has to be mentioned as it is the main cause of the disputes. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

   I disagree with you to a certain extent. Yes, it is an important aspect of the dispute, but I think the clash between Zionism and Arab nationalism is the primary factor in the decades-long conflict. Although this is the best wording proposed so far, I'm working on a newer revision that will begin with Jerusalem's present-day status. Kurtis 04:54, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

6. Enthusiastic support. I strongly prefer this general approach. Beginning with the historical and cultural context is very helpful, because of the role of religion in the geopolitical disputes, and the description of the Israeli and Palestinian positions is a balanced summary. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
7. As stated below, I think this the most of the first seven. Jehochman 21:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
8. So far, this is my first choice. Mohamed CJ (talk) 21:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
9. This reflects everything that is needed and nothing more. Fylbecatulous talk 23:05, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
10. This is an excellent draft and my personal favorite of the ones submitted so far. It's clear, to the point, and not too wordy. --Septagons (talk) 05:32, 24 May 2013 (UTC) — Septagons (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. — Mr. Stradivarius on tour 06:55, 24 May 2013 (UTC)— You're correct in the I signed up for Misplaced Pages recently. I was not aware that I am not allowed to comment on discussions or these type of things.--Septagons (talk) 02:38, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
11. I would say this is the most appropriate choice, though I second Nableezy's concern for an inclusion of a mention that Jerusalem is located both In Israel and in Palestine. Solntsa90 (talk) 05:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
12. I feel this version best summarizes the various points without casting unnecessary aspersions on reasonable positions. It also directly acknowledges that the city's storied history and religious importance is more significant than, and therefore should be placed before, the recent conflict. -- tariqabjotu 06:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
13. Factually accurate and neutral without being too verbose or convoluted. Also does a good job of succinctly explaining the context of the respective claims. Kaldari (talk) 08:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
14. Very good. Pithy. Puts politics in the backseat by highlighting first of all its religious-historical importance. It needs a few stylistic fixes, however.Nishidani (talk) 11:03, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
15. This works well for me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:36, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
16. First choice. I read through all the choices above before I looked down here at the votes, and recorded my impressions on paper. This is the only one I wrote "yes, yes" by. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:23, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
17. Seems to cover all the major points in a neutral manner. --Carnildo (talk) 00:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
18. This draft seems to cover the most important points better than the other options, and is less verbose than the new options below. - tucoxn\ 22:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
19. A truly neutral description. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 20:22, 27 May 2013 (UTC) — 85.167.109.26 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
20. This is my preferred draft.—S Marshall T/C 22:14, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
21. I like this draft. I actually like draft 14 more, which is similar to this draft. --Sm8900 (talk) 17:11, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
22. Support. Somedifferentstuff (talk) 20:01, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
23. Support as a distant second preference to draft 14. This version suffers from recentism in a way that draft 14 does not, and in that aspect I think it does our readers a grave disservice. Whether or not Jerusalem is the capital of either state is a minor issue in its history and should be de-emphasized by including other important aspects. This draft is at least more balanced than the others and includes more than the others do of a historically conscious overview. If draft 14 is rejected, this is my second choice.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 14:03, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
24. Definitely the best of the available options. Best of all, it both balances the rival claims and also alludes to the fact that some countries do support one claim or the other. --Dweller (talk) 20:20, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft seven with revisions

1. I think this draft was the best of the original 7 as it begins to draw the discourse by setting the historical context adequately, but needs to provide political/international relations information as presented in other drafts above. I proposed a combination of these elements in Draft 8. --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. I would suggest that the revisions Skäpperöd mentions with regards to "Israelis" and "Palestinians" would be a good idea, but keep State of Palestine per nableezy's comments on Skäpperöd's draft. Even if not formally established as a state given the occupation, it is a partially-recognized state.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. This seems the best to me. Though I would want to add the following rather pertinent information: it is currently fully under the control of Israel; the western part is within the internationally recognized borders of Israel; the eastern part is within the areas that have been occupied by Israel since 1967 and are claimed by the State of Palestine. (Apologies for any factual inaccuracies, but this is the sort of thing that readers would expect to be told.) Victor Yus (talk) 06:50, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
4. I indicated above some stylistic adjustments. Some possible tweaks.

   Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is considered holy by the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Both Israel and the State of Palestine claim the city as their capital, the former maintaining its primary governmental institutions there, while the Palestinian National Authority foresees Eastern Jerusalem as its seat of power. Neither claim is widely recognized internationally, and its ultimate status is to be determined by negotations. Nishidani (talk) 11:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

5. I think draft 2 is best so far but i could live with this subject to the base tenet that a good draft must include all the key points in Mr Stradivarius' "Source Summary" at the top of this page. In this draft the missing point is East Jerusalem - e.g. "East Jerusalem is internationally recognised as being in the occupied Palestinian territories". Oncenawhile (talk) 23:32, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

It states only Jerusalem as the capital, not East Jerusalem. (according to the Basic Law of Palestine, Title One: Article 3) 2003 Amended Basic Law. Scroll down to Article 3.

Somedifferentstuff (talk) 20:16, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

1. Only if the revision by Nishidani, which excludes the inappropriate references to people groups as having collective views, is used. If the version to be adopted includes the phrase "Israelis and Palestinians", rather than referring to the two states, this is an oppose. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 00:33, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Support with tweaks provided by Nishidani above. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 02:59, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Per Nishidani, "...as Israel maintains..." is poor syntax because it implies causation where there may or may not be any. Also, "one of the oldest cities in the world" is vague and unnecessary. Formerip (talk) 11:24, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft seven

1. Oppose, as the shortcomings of this proposal outweigh its benefits. The additional information of draft eight is missing, and "Palestinians" and "State of Palestine" should be replaced with "Palestinian authorities," and "Israelis" with "Israel." We can neither proclaim some opinion/legal claim as being held by a whole non-borg people, nor should we imply that the "State of Palestine" is, atm, any more than a concept. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Long winded and confuses more than it clarifies. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Too much focus on religions and archeology. --Felisopus (talk) 13:09, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
4. The word "major" seems POV to me. I would support if it said "to the three oldest Abrahamic religions" or something similar. Pass a Method talk 19:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft seven threaded discussion

I wounder how is this draft confusing? (By the way, is it just me or do other people have to click "save" twice for edits to go through too??) Mohamed CJ (talk) 21:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if this is the cause of your needing to double-save, but ... if you've activated the gadget to remind yourself to put an edit summary ... and then don't put an edit summary ... then you'll have to save twice. StevenJ81 (talk) 03:17, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, I think this draft is fine in most respects but the reference to communal, borg-like views held by "Israelis" and "Palestinians" is a huge stopping point for me. It's not that it's not neutral; it's that it's not accurate to ascribe views to an entire group of people. And it's enough that I'm unwilling to support this draft and very much considering opposing it. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 07:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree with your concerns about ascribing views to an entire group of people. I hadn't noticed that. Perhaps it should just say Israel and Palestine. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:30, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more. However I thought I'd fixed that obviously loose and misleading phrasing in the tweak I provided above (support for the draft with revisions) ('Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital' ='Both Israel and the State of Palestine claim the city as their capital,'). The change required is minimal. Nishidani (talk) 10:33, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

OK, but is that the one I'd be supporting if I comment in favour? It still looks to me like the original is still in the big box and attracting support. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 14:33, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

The procedure is to express one's view, with the motivation for or against. But, if there is some merit generally in a draft, one can choose another option, expressing approval if certain modifications are made. You'll see that option in the Support draft seven with revisions section two sections above this. One can do this for all drafts, of course, not just this. Cheers. Nishidani (talk) 15:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

That's a nitpick if ever I've seen one. I wouldn't care about the replacement of Israelis and Palestinians with Israel and the State of Palestine, but for the fact that those same terms are used later in the sentence. The sentence reads better without such repetition, and the reference to groups in such a fashion is completely normal and appropriate given the context and the prevalence of the ideas within the groups. And this is well-understood in the English language; no one would allege that someone saying (for example) "Americans are so friendly" believes every single American is friendly. The assertion that the use of groups in this manner is "borg-like" would necessitate qualifying many mentions of "Palestinians" and "Israelis" in this article, to say nothing of groups mentioned all across Misplaced Pages, with already-assumed words like "most". -- tariqabjotu 15:52, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

A way to avoid the repetition even with the words Israelis and Palestinians replaced with Israel and Palestine is by replacing the second mentions with the former and the latter. I still don't think it reads as well as it does currently, but I do think it reads better than a version that has Israel and the State of Palestine both repeated. -- tariqabjotu 15:57, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

You certainly have a stylistic point there, but I don't think Heimstern Läufer was nitpicking. The point he made reflects a very substantial scholarship which advises against referring to any population as though it shared an homogeneous political, cultural or social outlook. It's a hangover from German Romanticism: Herder started it and rather persuasively, nicely, democratically, but we ended up with ranting about Blut und Boden and Victor Klemperer's immortal study of what can happen when we don't pay close attention to the otherwise little incremental changes in our everyday idiom. Given his name I guess this is what HL has in mind. Most countries, and especially democracies like Israel certainly here, don't have a shared outlook on anything. Indeed it goes against their proverbial wisdom (Tsvay yidn, drei meinungern: two Jews, three opinions) It may be completely normal in conversation, tourist guides or that variety of fiction which writes about The French, the Russians, the Japanese, the Chinese. Area scholars, if they note such books, usually brush them off as amateurish and, at worse, dangerously close to stereotyping. I note this at length because it is a problem on many wiki articles. I.e. see the subject of every event in List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2013 and a dozen related lists, where 'Palestinians' is used for the actions of an extreme minority of militants.Nishidani (talk) 17:59, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Seriously, you think it's a nitpick to object to ascribing views to an entire group of people? Doing that is exactly what leads to all the wrong stereotypes I'm stuck fighting on a daily basis, so yes, it is wrong. And even if it is understood as a "most of the group" thing, and even if that really were how people would understand it (and no, I don't think it is), it's still not a representation of the facts. It is states we are talking about here, not people groups, and substituting one for the other ought not to be done. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 00:27, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

You've done nothing but exaggerate -- no, fabricate -- malice in the use of groups in this fashion. And, again, if you choose to interpret the use of groups in this manner as "inappropriate", "borg-like", and something that "leads to all the wrong stereotypes", you have quite the mission ahead of you concerning ridding acceptance of such from Misplaced Pages articles and the English language. Godspeed. -- tariqabjotu 19:02, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

What a completely rubbish assumption of bad faith. I assumed no malice in this wording; I just think it's horribly misguided. You can call me wrong as much as you need to, but accusing me of fabrication, that is to say, dishonesty, is a personal attack that neither I or anyone else ought to be subjected to here. And as for your implication that I'm some lone voice in the wilderness saying this wording isn't good, did you not read Nishidani, Skapperöd and Sean.hoyland's comments? This is not some fringe position. But in a way, that's beside the point, since my beef with you now is that you've wrongly ascribed dishonesty to me. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 00:00, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

What a completely rubbish assumption of bad faith. I assumed no malice in this wording; Yeah, why would I think that? I just think it's horribly misguided. Oh.

You didn't say I think it would be better to say Israel and Palestine instead of Israelis and Palestinians because the latter might be misunderstood as suggesting each and every person within those groups agrees with their government's actions. No, you called the current wording "borg-like" and "inappropriate". You put forth an ultimatum, twice stating that you'll oppose this wording if the change you want isn't made. You made it sound like you were championing the greater good, opposing a "horribly misguided" wording that "leads to all the wrong stereotypes stuck fighting on a daily basis". You asked me the loaded question, "you think it's a nitpick to object to ascribing views to an entire group of people?" And yet, I'm a dick for believing you thought there was anything other than the best of intentions (and the obvious understanding that not every Israeli and Palestinian is the same) with this wording? If you're so concerned that your words might be misconstrued, perhaps you should choose your words more wisely.

And, I know you're not a lone wolf, which is why I suggested a wording that addresses your concerns, as well as my stylistic concern, even though I don't see eye-to-eye on what's wrong with the current terminology. But on the other hand, there are a dozen and a half people who supported the wording as-is; presumably they all read the wording, and presumably very few -- if any of them -- believe every Israeli and every Palestinian thinks alike. -- tariqabjotu 02:06, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft eight by ColonelHenry

^ view all drafts
I chose to combine the important elements from the 7 previous drafts to make one comprehensive stand-alone paragraph.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The status of Jerusalem has long been a point of contention throughout history and in recent years in the context of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians, who also see the city as the capital of a future independent state of their own.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft eight

1. First choice - I don't understand how anybody could say that their POV is not included here, which ultimately is what NPOV is all about. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. First choice; more than fair to everyone concerned. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Also first choice for me.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:10, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

   Support; this is clear and concise, represents all POVs, and places the issue in historical context, all in just a few sentences. -- Ypnypn (talk) 19:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC) changed to support with revisions -- Ypnypn (talk) 19:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

4. Seems NPOV to me. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft eight with revisions

1. This is also a very good text, I'd leave out the "and has included it within its capital city" wording as Israel's claim that Jerusalem "is" its capital is universally rejected internationally. Otherwise, I'd be ready to support this. --Dailycare (talk) 15:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

   Support, but "Palestinians" and "State of Palestine" should be replaced with "Palestinian authorities," and "Israelis" with "Israel." We can neither proclaim some opinion/legal claim as being held by a whole non-borg people, nor should we imply that the "State of Palestine" is, atm, any more than a concept. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)Switch to oppose. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

2. FirstSecond choice, with one modification. The part Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power is a bit repetitive. So get rid of and has included it within its capital city and that would be my first choice. But thanks for putting this together. Hits everything as far as I can tell. nableezy - 16:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. "throughout history" is rather sweeping. I would be happier with an explicit mention of the crusades and "often".--Peter cohen (talk) 19:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

   See History of Jerusalem. This issue extends far beyond the Crusades. -- Ypnypn (talk) 19:43, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

4. Support, but change "...and in recent years in the context..." to "...and, more recently, in the context..." The two ins are confusing. -- Ypnypn (talk) 19:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. I actually like this draft just as much as draft 7, which it resembles. However, I think that it should indicate that the resolution has to be reached with both Israel and Palestine, as opposed to the language that only names the Palestinians. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. ... and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians... Make a cut in the middle of this first sentence at "however" and incorporate "neither claim is widely recognized internationally" into the next sentence...somehow. Or just make the statement neither claim is widely recognized internationally a separate sentence. Otherwise I support, although I'm more in favor of draft seven because I really prefer a succinct style. Fylbecatulous talk 22:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
7. Good progress. Two problems: (1)"The status of Jerusalem has long been a point of contention throughout history and in recent years in the context of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict." => this jars a little, as it's not really the "status" which has historically been in dispute, more "control"; and (2)"Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city" => this also jars as we say they've included it within their capital, and then contradict it with the next sentence. This latter point would work if we said "declared capital". Oncenawhile (talk) 23:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
8. Progress yes, but my problem is with 'recent years' or similar wording. How long has this trouble existed? The plan is over a century old, with initial fruition and violent objections nearly so. With an appropriate vintage year, I feel things have only morphed over time, little has changed and there is no suggestion of resolution. What has changed recently to justify using those words? Oslo Accords and the treaty with Jordan are nearly two decades old; what justifies 'recent years'? CasualObserver'48 (talk) 04:21, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft eight

1. Per WP:due weight in comparison with draft 7. First I consider very important the that is suggested in draft 7 and that lacks in draft 8 and which means that the political status of the city should be moved farther in the article. Second, even if what is written in draft 8 is more accurate than in draft 7, I think it is too much for the lead which must remain a summary and not explain everything. If the capital controversy deserves these 4 lines on my screen then the history and symbolic weight of the city would deserse 20 and not just half one... (Anyway Draft 8 is much better than drafts 1 to 6 regarding my reasonning.) Pluto2012 (talk) 16:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Oppose. ColonelHenry did a good job combining the relevant pieces of the first seven proposals, but I see a need for further improvement. First, "Palestinians" and "State of Palestine" should be replaced with "Palestinian authorities," and "Israelis" with "Israel." We can neither proclaim some opinion/legal claim as being held by a whole non-borg people, nor should we imply that the "State of Palestine" is, atm, any more than a concept. Second, the paragraph can easily be condensed without loosing any information. See proposal nine below. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Too long for lead. That is why I proposed to place in the body. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:39, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Long winded and confuses more than it clarifies. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Way too much detail for the lede. Summary style should still be a priority.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. Too much detail for the lead, especially in succession. The way it's worded shifts the focus too strongly and abruptly to the recent issue, being almost dismissive to its historical and religious importance. -- tariqabjotu 06:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
7. Oppose, as per Pluto2012. It gives very little information on Jerusalem, and seems to be giving undue weight to the political upheaval and status of Jerusalem, while ignoring other crucial figures such as geographical location and religious status. Solntsa90 (talk) 06:58, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
8. Oppose, useless informations in the incipit. --Felisopus (talk) 12:58, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
9. Oppose, the implication that the current Israel-Palestinian conflict is somehow part of a larger narrative of a history of "contention" reeks of OR to me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
10. Oppose, in part because it just doesn't seem like a lead, and in part because one line ("and has included it within its capital city.") implies that West Jerusalem is the legitimate capital of Israel. Marechal Ney (talk) 06:28, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
11. Oppose. It's far too focused on recent events and ignores myriad aspects of the importance and meaning of Jerusalem. Roughly per Solntsa90.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 13:54, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft eight threaded discussion

One thing I'd add, though this could go elsewhere in the lead, is that the city is split between Israel and the Palestinian territories by the Green Line. Yes I know many states dont recognize any part of Jerusalem being anything other than a corpus separatum, but in practice it is widely understood that west of the Green Line = Israel and east of the Green Line = Palestinian territories. nableezy - 15:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Concerning Palestine, the State of Palestine has been recognized by more than 100 countries and has been admitted to the UN as a non-member state, so I'd call it more than just a theoretical concept. Israel hasn't been universally recognized either, yet we have no problems saying "Israel" here, instead of "Zionists". --Dailycare (talk) 16:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Even though I tend to be on the side of Israel in the conflict, I would disagree with any euphemism (i.e. "Palestinian authorities") that denies the statehood of Palestine. An independent Palestinian state is inevitable. It is here to stay and not just a "concept"--as it is both recognized by a sizeable portion of the world's countries, and working towards evolving into an established entity/presence. It won't go away and to diminish the status of Palestine and the Palestinian people by reverting to denial of it or calling it just an "authority" is POV.--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:05, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

On claims that Draft 8 is "too long", I ask what should be revised or left out? I do note there is a tautology in that the latter sentences are repetitive and can be condensed. However, WP:LEAD advises a lede should "briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article" While concise implies brevity (as an attribute), concise does not equal brevity. We're at no impelling need to be austere. The concepts have to be discussed to make it stand on its own, we have before us the task of summarizing historical context, political context, international context, and cultural context in one brief section. If we do not address these four areas in the lede, it can't stand on its own, and we do so by omitting essential summaries of the reality of Jerusalem. While it refers mostly to article size, it can apply adequately to the scope of a lede, WP:SUMMARY states: Opinions vary as to what counts as an ideal length; judging the appropriate size depends on the topic... and specifically regarding ledes...make a concise intro that works as a standalone. Per WP:LEAD: The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies.--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I admit that some subjects need longer summarizes than others. It is more the question, what to summarize and what not. You cannot all. If a bad summary of medium size is the compromise between a short and a long one, I choose for the minimal one instead and leave it to the article body. --Wickey-nl (talk) 09:50, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

FPS Reeks of OR? Actually, the violence often characterizing Jerusalem's spectacular history (not its long periods of wallowing in a listless doldrum) was a point Ravpapa made eloquently some time back in his proposed lead draft, and reflects a common topos in the serious literature. We tend to softpedal this aspect out of respect for religious sensibilities, though even fine sensitive writers on the city, like Simon Sebag Montefiore remind us that 'Jerusalem is a Holy City, yet it has always been a den of superstition, charlatanism and bigotry; the desire and prize of empires, yet of no strategic value; the cosmopolitan home of many sections, each of which believes the city belongs to them alone; a city of many names-yet each tradition is so sectarian that it excludes any other.'(Simon Sebag Montefiore, Jerusalem: The Biography, Hachette UK 2011 p.24). To respond however specifically:

• Victor Davis Hanson, reviewing Eric H. Cline's appositely titled Jerusalem Besieged: From Ancient Canaan to Modern Israel, (University of Michigan Press, 2004) wrote that:'Besieged is a fascinating account of how and why a baffling array of peoples, ideologies, and religions have fought for some four thousand years over a city without either great wealth, size, or strategic importance.'
• Serge Schmemann, reviewing five books on the city in his ‘A Symbol on a Hill,’ New York Times. December 8, 1996, wrote: ‘Three great monotheistic religions deem it sacred, yet no city has a comparable history of carnage, destruction and strife.' (This is uncannily close to what is objected to as WP:OR in our draft.
• |James Carroll, Jerusalem, Jerusalem: How the Ancient City Ignited Our Modern World, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2011 p.307:'Jerusalem is the cockpit of violence, and within its precincts, for three thousand years, humans have pushed and pulled to the point of blood against their own inbred tendency to push and pull: the solution to violence was more violence.'Nishidani (talk) 19:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

It is to me a tad PC-ish to studiously refrain from following the remark about its sacredness to Abrahamic religions by a brief half sentence, easily sourced, noting that violent contentiousmess, religious or imperial, has often riven the city, with its record number of invasions.Nishidani (talk) 19:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft nine by Skäpperöd

^ view all drafts
Rephrased and shortened draft eight per concerns there.

Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The status of Jerusalem has often been a point of contention, most recently in the context of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions in the city and considers East Jerusalem, which it controls since the Six Day's War, as an integral part of its capital. The Palestinian authorities however claim Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state. Neither claim is widely recognized internationally.

Support draft nine

1. Support as nom. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:30, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft nine with revisions

1. I can support this draft as taking a similar approach to drafts 7 and 8, but I can also agree with some of the opposition, that the wording about the Authority should be corrected. There's something to be said for the greater concision, although I expect that 7 or 8 will prove better able to satisfy competing concerns about neutrality. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft nine

1. As draft 8, too long. Plus the POV of Skäpperöd, that the Palestinian authorities should be mentioned instead of the Palestinians or the State of Palestine. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. It is not Palestinian authorities that have claimed Jerusalem as a capital, it is the State of Palestine. Somebody can believe that such a state does not exist, but that person is wrong. A state exists when other states say it exists through the act of recognition. Palestine has been recognized as state by other states and as such it exists as a state. And it was the State of Palestine that declared, in its declaration of independence, that Jerusalem is its capital. The draft also uses euphemisms in place of factual content on the status of East Jerusalem. In sum, this is, in my view, a considerable downgrade from either 7 or 8. nableezy - 16:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Long winded and confuses more than it clarifies. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. While I like the excising the tautology present in the latter sentence of Draft 8, I disagree with the POV in downgrading the Palestinian state to "authorities"--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Per Nableezy, it is a partially-recognized state and it is appropriate to acknowledge it as such.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. This rephrasing has strayed into something that reads like an essay. As I've said above, I prefer my encyclopaedic style to be succinct. Although this draft covers pertinent facts, it needs to stand up straight and look sharp! Fylbecatulous talk 03:43, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
7. Too long and dispersive. --Felisopus (talk) 12:56, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
8. Same objection as with draft 8. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
9. Doesn't hit the points as well as 7 or 8. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:41, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft nine threaded discussion

Draft ten by Kurtis

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I propose that the following text be considered as the introduction to the article's lead paragraph.

Jerusalem is a city located within the southern Levant region, and serves as the administrative capital of Israel. It is one of the oldest continuously inhabited settlements in the world, considered holy by each of the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The sovereignty of Jerusalem is a matter of significant dispute between the Israeli state and the Palestinian National Authority, both of which officially recognize the city as their nation's capital.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft ten

1. I think I am fine with the current revision.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:26, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft ten with revisions

1. It would have my complete endorsement if not for that troublesome opening sentence. Palestine is indeed the generally accepted, historical name for the region; my fear is that many Misplaced Pages readers may see the word "Palestine" and immediately assume political bias. I would instead use Levant, although that word is a bit outdated. The other issue is the use of the term "de facto". The term is usually only used when something is de facto, but not de jure. In the eyes of Israel, Jerusalem is the de jure capital; in the eyes of the international community, it isn't. Marechal Ney (talk) 06:35, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

   I've fixed the first sentence as per your suggestion. Kurtis 09:18, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft ten

1. Sorry, but this is quite off the mark, perhaps due to lack of familiarity with the conflict. The first sentence is, for lack of a better term, jarring. If one thinks it's bad to start the article by saying Jerusalem is the capital of a particular state, beginning it with Jerusalem is a disputed municipality in the region of Palestine is worse. Is that the first thing people (should) think of when they think of Jerusalem? Absolutely not. "Municipality" (which I see is repeated further on) is quite clinical; what's wrong with city? And nobody talks about cities being in regions rather than political borders, especially ones that share names with states. Farther on, it's not clear "State of Israel" and the "Palestinian National Authority" are appropriate counterparts, and the city is not really divided between them anyway; the PNA has no control over the city. And then, I don't think it makes sense to equate the Palestinian and Israeli claims to Jerusalem as their respective capitals, as it misses the crucial distinction that the Israeli government is located there and the Palestinian government is not. -- tariqabjotu 06:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

   But Israel's claim to Jerusalem remains heavily disputed. I don't think it it would be sufficient for us to flatly state that "Jerusalem is the capital city of Israel"; it would certainly comes across as biased. Also, if it seems as if my knowledge of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is limited, perhaps this bit of context will change your mind. I wrote that myself back in late 2011. Kurtis 07:08, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

   I don't like that you completely changed the draft after I commented. Nevertheless, I still object. My point about saying "region of Palestine" still stands. Now, we also have the capital point oddly stated twice but broken up by another point. And I believe the use of the term "recognize" in the last sentence is confusing, given how they're not "recognizing" another state's actions. The reason I assumed you weren't familiar with the conflict was because I found it surprising you'd write a draft with some notable issues (particularly the one that suggested control of the city was split). -- tariqabjotu 16:26, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

   I won't argue against your rationale, but to make one thing clear, I changed my original draft by a large because of your comment. If you'd like me to link to a prior revision that contains the first draft for reasons of disclosure, I'd be glad to do so. Kurtis 06:15, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

2. I oppose because I think that the lead would lead to too many problems. Also, municipality is a political term, and thus it leads to confusion as to which state's municipality it is. Also, It's called The State of Palestine, as the Palestinian National Authority has given way after the latest UN vote which granted Palestine observer status. Solntsa90 (talk) 06:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Referring to Jerusalem as being in the Region of Palestine is arbitrarily POV. Why not refer to it as being in the biblical Land of Israel? --GHcool (talk) 16:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

   The name "Palestine" is very ancient and refers to the region itself; the biblical Land of Israel was one state that existed within the area. Kurtis 06:15, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

4. Weak oppose ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:26, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
5. This is a genuine effort, but the wording (e.g. "administrative capital") isn't very strongly in-line with sources that describe the situation. --Dailycare (talk) 19:24, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft ten threaded discussion

I borrowed some of the text from draft 7 above and expanded on it so as to include what I hope will become the introductory sentences of the article. If anyone has some suggestions on what can be changed, I'd be glad to hear it. Kurtis 05:36, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I've made some revisions per Tariqabjotu's oppose rationale. Kurtis 07:34, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

You clearly have a gift for lucid and succinct summary. I am still minded to express a preference for option 7 or 8 (Colonel Wilson and co), but they need the quality of paring you show here. What to keep, and how to pare will of course depend on further editorial input.Nishidani (talk) 10:17, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Heh. Thanks! :-) Kurtis 11:24, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft eleven by Solntsa90

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Tell me what you think. I used the current revision as a template, tweaked it a bit, and created a scenario that should be mostly satisfactory to both parties, or at least, international law:

Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim  ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds  ) is a city located in Israel and Palestine, and is claimed as national capital by both states, though most of the land area (except East Jerusalem) is under Israeli administration and operates as Israel's de facto seat of government. However, almost all Israeli foreign embassies are located in Tel Aviv. One of the oldest continuously inhabited urban areas in the world, Jerusalem is considered holy by each of the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It is located in the Judean Mountains (also known as the Hebron Hills), between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea. Jerusalem is both Israel and Palestine's largest city in terms of both population and area, with a population of 801,000 residents over an area of 125.1 km2 (48.3 sq mi), though Palestine only administers East Jerusalem, with most of the population living within Israeli administration.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft eleven

1. I obviously support my own draft. :P Solntsa90 (talk) 06:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft eleven with revisions

Oppose draft eleven

1. This version equates the Palestinian and Israeli claims to Jerusalem as their respective capitals, missing the crucial distinction that the Israeli government is located there and the Palestinian government is not. -- tariqabjotu 06:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Clear pro-Palestinian POV.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:29, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
3. 'Most of the land (except East Jerusalem) is under Israeli administration . . . though Palestine only administers East Jerusalem.' Statements like these are wholly unfactual, and make the text unacceptable.Nishidani (talk) 12:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
4. The claim that Jerusalem is located in Israel and Palestine is highly contestable (as can be deduced from this very discussion)! --GHcool (talk) 16:20, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Factually incorrect ('Palestine only administers East Jerusalem.'). Shouldn't be considered a serious proposal in an encyclopedia. Prague Drinking Team (talk) 18:28, 24 May 2013 (UTC) — Prague Drinking Team (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Draft eleven threaded discussion

Have revised, as per Tariq's concern. Solntsa90 (talk) 07:00, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

It's not Israel's "de facto" seat of government; it very much is it's seat of government. There is no doubt Israel's government is in Jerusalem. -- tariqabjotu 16:58, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

That is actually what "de facto" means. --Yair rand (talk) 07:41, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft twelve by Sm8900

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The Israeli government considers Jerusalem to be its capital. The Palestinian Authority considers Jerusalem to be its capital.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft twelve

Note: see discussion on this page, in section Jerusalem#Suggestion_by_Sm8900. --Sm8900 (talk) 15:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft twelve with revisions

1. The sentence is correct, but it's hard to tell if it's NPOV without knowing where it will be in the article and what kind of context will be given. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:29, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft twelve

1. The lead should start with 'Jerusalem per MOS:LEAD. -- Ypnypn (talk) 14:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Missing information on location, function, occupation, sovereignty, and the entire Palestinian side. Sepsis II (talk) 15:11, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Too weasel wordy. --GHcool (talk) 16:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Insufficient information to judge this draft option. -- tariqabjotu 23:11, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft twelve threaded discussion

Draft thirteen by Collect

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Jerusalem is the ancient capital of IsraelJudea, and is a "holy city" to three major religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Modern Israel claims it as its capital, although this is not generally recognised by other nations. Palestinians have also said they wish it to be the capital of a future Palestinian state."

I suggest this is accurate, neutral, and avoids the pitfalls of adding religion details, and war details. Collect (talk) 22:05, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft thirteen

1. Collect (talk) 22:05, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
2. GHcool (talk) 17:45, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
3. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:39, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft thirteen with revisions

Oppose draft thirteen

1. The current state of Palestine claims Jerusalem as its capital, not a future state. The "ancient capital of Israel" bit is quite a random fact which could be read in more than one way. Missing information on the occupation, location, sovereignty, and function. Sepsis II (talk) 22:43, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
2. As far as I understand, "Jerusalem is the ancient capital of Israel" is true only according to the Bible. Samaria (ancient city) is the capital of Israel as far as otherwise recorded history goes. Formerip (talk) 23:02, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Mentioning the theory Jerusalem was anciently capital of Judea sounds like undue weight, and IIRC archaeologists aren't convinved that "capital" is an appropriate word to use in that context. Jerusalem was also capital of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, for example. --Dailycare (talk) 19:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Per WP:Due weight.The fact it was the former capital of Judea is certainly not the most important fact regarding the city so the lead should certainly not start by this information. More, the weight given to the information linked to the symbolic value is too little. Per WP:NPoV the Palestinian and international point of view on the capital controversy are not properly given. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft thirteen threaded discussion

Per comment about Samaria, change to "Judea" as being correct by all accounts - Biblical and Roman etc. AFAICT, the PLO does not claim that Jerusalem is the effective capital - the concept of "future" is in accord with the PA texts. This is not the article to have the interminable P/I wrangling. Collect (talk) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC) Collect (talk) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft fourteen by Nishidani

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Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim  ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds  ) is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world. Nestling in the Judean Mountains, between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea, it straddles Israel and the West Bank, and its combined population makes it the largest city in those regions. It is deemed sacred by the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam—each of whose traditions single it out for a foundational event: the chosen seat of David’s kingdom, it became successively the hearth of Judaism, the site of the crucifixion of Jesus, and of Muhammad’s visionary ascension . Powers—pagan, religious and secular—have vied to conquer and reconquer it intermittently for millenia, and each has left its mark on the city’s monumental architecture, mosaic of cultures, languages, ethnic groups and identities.Both Israel and the State of Palestine claim the city as their capital:the former maintains its primary governmental institutions there, while the Palestinian National Authority foresees Eastern Jerusalem as its seat of power. Neither claim is widely recognized internationally, and its permanent status is to be determined by peace negotiations.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft fourteen

1. I like this approach the best. It is a masterpiece of evasion: it touches on all the points of contention without making them sound at all contentious. It presents a four-thousand year old battleground drenched in blood and makes it sound - well, normal. And that, it seems, is the Misplaced Pages way: take a pit filled with hate and misery, like Pristina or Colón, Panama, or Damascus and write an article about Valhalla. I say this with a touch of cynicism, but I really do think this lead does the best job. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:41, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
2. This proposal complies with WP:Due weight between the different facts that should be reported regarding Jerusalem : symbolic value, geographical situation, size and population. The capital controversy is dealt in compliance with WP:NPoV : both claim are given with the minimum precision that is required to understand what they consist in exactly adn the international community's point of view is finally given. Excellent compromise and sysnthesis of the different comments that were made on this talk page. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:55, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
3. I strongly support the part about the capital. All text above it is in fact irrelevant for the discussion; it only says that the capital-statement should not be in the first sentence, which I also strongly support. --Wickey-nl (talk) 11:37, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
4. I like this approach. I am pleased to see other editors viewing this positively as well. a worthy effort. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 17:06, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Like some of the other longer, more nuanced drafts, I think this one is quite successful. A quibble: the third sentence is a run-on sentence. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:23, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
6. First choice, though the easter egg links should be removed. I really dont know why the words Green Line are verboten, saying straddles the Green Line between Israel and the Palestinian territories should be fine. nableezy - 17:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
7. Not my preference, but I can live with it.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:32, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
8. Comprehensive and gives due weight. Mohamed CJ (talk) 17:06, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
9. I strongly support this version. Jerusalem is a very old city that's very important for very, very many reasons. The recent situation is of short duration in proportion to the city's history and significance. This version gives due weight to the various aspects of the long history of Jerusalem itself rather than undue weight to recent issues while, at the same time, acknowledges the fact that the recent issues are important to our current readers and (probably) to the long-term history of the city. Nishidani has outdone his usual fine work here.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 17:18, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

   (*I hope you don't mind if I strike that out, ALWL. Actually, I had and have reservations about identifying the drft as mine. It is a synthesis of months of discussion here and elsewhere, and two parts at least are wholly the work of other editors, whose excellent work I have incorporated. I should have acknowledged this. Mea culpa)Nishidani (talk) 17:41, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

10. Support--bravo for putting together this synthesis, Nishidani. I strongly support this. --ColonelHenry (talk) 05:35, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
11. Support. As draft number seven, this draft is admirably neutral. Either would do 85.167.109.26 (talk) 23:09, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
12. Strong support for this draft, as well as its dynamic and collaborative genesis on and off the page. Thank you all. I do not share the concerns of excessively cocky prose threaded below. I see a very uncommon bird, duly weighed, neutrally worded and served with prose that presents our subject's notability in the world's space and time; it describes the forest in which other things have grown. I consider this iridescent prose commensurate with Jerusalem and fully justified. Kudos. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 05:26, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft fourteen with revisions

1. It's reasonable, but there are a couple issues. I'm not sure if they're significant enough that this is actually an oppose, but here they are:
   • ...its combined population makes it the largest city in that region? Combined with what? It exists as one city today; it should be discussed as such. And "Israel and the West Bank" doesn't really bode well as one region. If you're not willing to say it's the largest in the Israel (and I know you're not), or at least the largest in those regions, you should just drop the largest city bit. Jerusalem is not a particularly large city anyway, with a much larger city (Amman) just 70 kilometers away.
   • The foundational events referenced do not need to be listed in the lead. (Also, the link you're looking for is Isra and Mi'raj.)
   • Powers - pagan, religious and secular - have vied to conquer and reconquer it intermittently for millenia, and each has left its mark on the city’s monumental architecture, rich mosaic of cultures, languages, ethnic groups and identities. That sounds a little PEACOCKy. Also, "religious and secular" are probably enough.
   • ...as their capital, the former maintaining its primary governmental institutions there, while the Palestinian National Authority foresees... So, this speaks to your rewrite under Draft 7 as well. The way the sentence is constructed sounds a bit confusing. In the first part of this sentence we say that the State of Palestine claims Jerusalem as its capital. Then in the second half, we say that the PNA foresees the eastern half of the city has its capital. I don't think most people are going to understand the distinction -- I'm not even certain what it is -- and so it sounds repetitive. If the "while the PNA..." bit is intended to clarify the statement about the State of Palestine claiming Jerusalem as its capital, the comma between there and while should be dropped. Either way, as or with should also be added before the former.
   • There are also a few Easter egg links: straddles pointing to Green Line (Israel), monumental architecture pointing to Jerusalem stone, ultimate status pointing to Oslo I Accord. These should be removed.

   -- tariqabjotu 16:47, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

   Thanks, Tariq. That's very useful. It's late here, and I'll reply in detail tomorrow. Briefly though, if I took out the bits you think peacocky, or problematical, the text would suffer ( and this is the eternal problem here), from WP:Recentism and an WP:Undue focus on the modern political aspect, which I think is the problem that has plagued us for yonks. I've tried to thematize in chronological order the major points, as succinctly as possible. The article lead must give a thumbnail synthesis of 5,000 years, history and culture included. But, I'll sleep on it, and hope to do justice to your careful construal tomorrow. Thanks.Nishidani (talk) 18:54, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

   I don't think the sentence should be removed entirely, just perhaps toned down. It makes it sound like the city is some cosmopolitan city with people from all over the world (like New York or London), but this isn't true. Maybe cutting out some of the adjectives would help: Powers -- religious and secular -- have vied to conquer and reconquer it intermittently for millenia, leaving their marks on the city's architecture, culture, and identity. -- tariqabjotu 19:23, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

2. I don't like "it straddles Israel and the West Bank." I'd prefer if it said something like "it exists on Green Line" or something to that effect. --GHcool (talk) 17:49, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

   The reason that was (a) Nableezy mentioned the need to put something in explicitly on the Green line. A few others objected to that, so I had to avoid Green line inside the text as a compromise, but since I had sources which used 'straddled' specifically, which is absolutely neutral to both sides, I linked it to Green line. A city isn't, surely?, on a line (most cities are financially 'on the line', though:)). Lines divide. There's a heck of a lot of RS that mention a divided city, as well as the unified city. I've tried to avoid both. Thanks.

3. I'm not sure we need a fourteenth draft, especially as this seems to resemble draft seven which we already have. I don't have many gripes with this, except for the notion that West Jerusalem would currently be "in Israel", which is a fringe view and should go. --Dailycare (talk) 19:32, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

   The peace negotiations are mentioned here. I don't see an implicit recognition of territory. --Wickey-nl (talk) 11:53, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

   I think "straddles" comes across as suggesting West Jer would be in Israel. However this is maybe a relatively minor flaw in an otherwise good draft, along with draft seven this is the only one with real style. --Dailycare (talk) 19:33, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

4. Per most of what Tariqabjotu says above. But this would otherwise be my first choice. :-) Kurtis 02:16, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
5. I think this does a pretty impressive job of covering the important historical elements of the history of the city, as well as fairly stating the political controversy. I agree with Tariq's concerns about the peacocky writing, though, and think that his rewrite thereof would be very good. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 00:46, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
6. Best draft so far, with one problem: the sentence "Powers—pagan, religious and secular—have vied to conquer and reconquer it intermittently for millenia, and each has left its mark on the city’s monumental architecture, mosaic of cultures, languages, ethnic groups and identities". Will true and excellent writing, I don't see how it contributes to the introduction. I would replace it with a sentence which more clearly states that it has been fought over throughout history; as User:Tariqabjotu pointed it, it's too peacock-y. Marechal Ney (talk) 03:20, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

   hmmm, I would suggest we start the sentence as "Various powers..." Just makes it more readable, in my opinion. --Sm8900 (talk) 14:45, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

   Vague. 'Great powers' was what I had in draft, but ever-conscious of the need for brevity and the rule against adjectives, I truncated it. It has good RS support for the concept. Come to think of it, 'Powers' alone, makes one think rather biblically of 'dominions, principalities and powers', and probably needs the more geopolitical concept of 'Great Powers' Nishidani (talk) 15:10, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft fourteen

1. This would require a very large amount of changes to be acceptable. The facts that the city is currently administered by Israel and functioning as Israel's capital/seat of government are both much more noteworthy and essential to the topic than either Israel's or the PA's international claims. The former is not mentioned in this draft at all, and both should be mentioned before the dispute. The statement "its permanent status is to be determined by peace negotiations" is the position of the international community, and should be stated as such, instead of being presented as simple fact. I agree with the concerns above about the statements "it straddles Israel and the West Bank.", "combined population", and "pagan ", as well as WP:PEACOCK issues. I'm a bit apprehensive about the general approach of delaying the political situation explanation after the religious, geographic, and historic background, at least to the extent of throwing a kilobyte of text before mentioning about the city as it exists today at all. Also, the lead should probably mention the city's status under Israeli law. --Yair rand (talk) 04:33, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
2. "Nestling" sounds somewhat like a travel brochure. "Straddles" doesn't work well. "Powers—pagan, religious and secular—have vied to conquer and reconquer it intermittently for millenia", reads somewhat like a tour advertisement, not an encyclopedia, which is also the case for, "and each has left its mark on the city’s monumental architecture, mosaic of cultures," -- It also gives undue weight to its location, which would require swapping the second and third sentences to alleviate. Somedifferentstuff (talk) 09:08, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Per the arbitration committee "the result of this structured discussion will be binding for three years" and per the top of this page " The dispute focuses on whether or not it is neutral to say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". We need a focused solution, not a lead re-write with superfluous modifications and purple prose that we won't be able to change for three years. The result of the RfC should not bind the hands of the community any more that is necessary and it should remain possible adapt the lead to reflect the changing contents of the article. Formerip (talk) 09:32, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft fourteen threaded discussion

The text is consciously (I hope not unconscionably) based on the principle of three in order to overcome the divide that tends to reduce every edit, and editor, in the eyes of her fellows, into a paladin for one of two positions, pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian. I wanted to avoid the use of the law of the excluded third whose unwitting application as a premise, in my own humble view, afflicts this editing area. That is why (a) three geographical points are mentioned (b) three Abrahamic religions cited (c) three foundational events noted (d) why the word ‘pagan’ is added to ‘religious and secular’ , and why (e) the recent conflict breaks down into the two positions, Israel vs the Palestinians, with ‘international’ dissent added.

1. 'Combined population . largest city in the.region’

City articles characteristically have current population data. So I retrieved this point from the article. For several years, chronic squabbling has invested precisely this. If you say ‘the largest city’ it has to be qualified either by ‘in Israel’/Israel’s’ or in Israel/Palestine or in the region. If I mentioned ‘unified’ I would have, per WP:NPOV, to mention ‘divided’ as per, to cite just a few of many sources at hand. ‘Combined’ implies both unification (Israel) and divided (Palestinian and international sources. See these refs, which I had withheld, but which influenced my decision, after much mental scrounging, to opt for ‘combined’.)No agreement seems possible with the first because it identifies the whole city as lying within Israel, which is a legitimate but partisan POV. ‘in Israel/Palestine’ is possible, but many dislike the combination. I chose ‘region,’ which as the source notes clarify, means Israel/Palestine, not the area and the contiguous Middle East. One could resolve the issue by saying in the ‘Israel/Palestine region’ or ‘in those regions’, which you suggest and is fine by me.

(2)

‘the foundational events need not be listed’

I introduced it (a) to fit the rule of three (b) because the historical sentence which follows it requires a set of key events to contextualize the rivalry over the city from past to present (c) In the two drafts which so far have the most support (7 & 8) the post 67 section has either 2 or 3 sentences (in CH’s one very long sentences) that create a WP:Undue tilt towards WP:Recentism. There was no history, therefore two sentences covering 5,000 years in synthesis seemed to provide the balancing solution. (d) I specifically had in mind your own two comments, on drafts 7 and 8.

Draft 7. Approved: It also directly acknowledges that the city's storied history and religious importance is more significant than, and therefore should be placed before, the recent conflict. .

Draft 8 opposed: Too much detail for the lead, especially in succession. The way it's worded shifts the focus too strongly and abruptly to the recent issue, being almost dismissive to its historical and religious importance. ]

I share a lot of ground on these two judgements, with the difference that I think draft 7’s reference to three monotheisms and nothing more is religious, not historical, and thus the passage neglects history. I agree wholly with your criticism of draft 8 which focuses too strongly on recent history, at the cost of ignoring the larger historical picture. (3) (a) Thanks for the heads up on the proper miraj link, have adjusted.

(b) Powers - pagan, religious and secular - have vied to conquer and reconquer it intermittently for millenia, and each has left its mark on the city’s monumental architecture, rich mosaic of cultures, languages, ethnic groups and identities. That sounds a little PEACOCKy. Also, "religious and secular" are probably enough.

I read PEACOCKy for the first time. I strove to keep evaluative adjectives out of the text, and on examining the guide, elided, as per your own advice below, ‘rich’ from ‘rich mosaic’. But I fail to see colour or puffery in the line. It is, I believe, a neutral statement of the Longue durée in terms of the seminal elements over time, the wrestling over who controls it, and the impact of numerous occupying powers on its culture and architecture. A minimalist statement. You suggest dropping 'languages'. I don't know why, but as a philologist, I'm fascinated by the way, at every 20 or 30 yards as one walks around, the language I've just been keyed into is lost as a new one comes within earshot. I needlessly embarrassed a bus-driver a few years ago. Devout Muslim, he was sitting with another bus-driver waiting for his Christian tour-group to end their mass inside a church. Since I was the only pagan in the group, I also sat out those moments, and religiously sucked on a Marlboro or two in his company. I couldn't help but note how his Palestinian Arab was peppered with Hebraisms, a fascinating Mischsprache, e.g. tov for quais, and asked him about it. (c) Are ‘religious’ and ‘secular’ enough? My principle of three suggested no because (a) ‘religious and secular’ alone would echo strongly the rift between religious and secular Zionism (b) ‘secular’ is modern, and the struggle over time hasn’t been between ‘religious’ and ‘secular’ powers or empires alone. ‘Pagan’ alludes to the pre-Israelitic history (2,000 years), including the Pharaonic period, but also to the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman invasions and meddling. These were fundamentally non-religious, non-secular, empires, outside of the logic and fold of the three Abrahamic faiths, and often strenuously, violently opposed to them. Apart from my editorial design based on three, this summarizes as per WP:LEDE the three central events which account for a large part of the history. I might add that other editors might well challenge two other pieces of phrasing here you didn’t mention, from a different POV, as PEACOCKy, namely ‘Nestled’ for ‘located in’ and ‘hearth of Judaism’. ‘hearth’ took a lot of time: I had thought of ‘cradle’ of Judaism, ‘crucible/cradle’ of Christianity, for example, but couldn’t come up with a balanced, adequate and familiar metaphor for Islam (‘golden bowl/goblet’ in Al-Muqaddasi was unacceptable, with its scorpion inside: he in any case, attributed this saying to the Torah) and so dropped the experiment. Others might object that two phrases for Judaism, compared to one for Christianity and Islam, overeggs the sparse pud in the first’s f(l)avour infringing WP:NPOV. Per WP:IAR, I ignored here the rule, because I think some consideration is due to the historical fact that the sacrality of the city, and its contended history among creeds, flows from the peculiar and germinal role it assumed in the first of the three creeds, Judaism, and it’s not pointy to phrase things that give it more than merely a chronological priority. These bits, I freely admit without embarrassment, were also intended as a ‘trade’: let’s lower the temperature of the recent conflict in our editorial room in exchange for recognizing that the city began its religious significance with Judaism.

(4)...as their capital, the former maintaining its primary governmental institutions there while the Palestinian National Authority foresees...(a) I write that both countries claim the city, but then specify the PA identifies East Jerusalem. This you argue, gives rise to perplexity. The facts are Israel’s position is that the city is one, eternally unified. The PLO declaration claims Jerusalem as its capital, and then modified this in talks to say it meant ‘East Jerusalem’. As of now, Israel asserts its claim to the whole city, the PA has restricted its claim to one part. I intended to stick to the facts, and maintain nuances. Perhaps I haven’t phrased this adequately, but I can’t see it, honestly. The slight adjustments and punctuation you suggest appear to overlook the fact that, technically in rhetoric, the clause ‘the former maintaining its primary governmental institutions there while the Palestinian National Authority foresees Eastern Jerusalem as its seat of power’ is ‘epexegetical’ .

(5) Easter egg links (neat phrase by the way, I was unfamiliar with it).

• ’straddles’ links to the Green line. Yes, but (a) it’s a well-sourced idiom, and one that gets rid of all sorts of complications by admitting two areas (per Shlomo Hasson) without denying the conurbated unity of the place (b) that’s in to respond to Nableezy and some others’ comments. It is an implicit (hidden), not overt reference to an historical fact that still affects much discourse, legal and negotiational, on Jerusalem.
• monumental architecture links to Jerusalem stone. We need an article on the architecture of Jerusalem, it’s lacking I believe. But the stone-work is distinctive for the quality, especially the light effects, of the locally quarried Jerusalem stone. I think it’s a neat link, but if people dislike it, it’s no big deal to remove it.
• ’ultimate status’ points to Oslo 1 Accord. I would defend this simply because it is a fact that in the Oslo 1 Accords, borders were to be determined at permanent status negotiations (Article V), an undertaking still on the table. ‘ultimate’ might be adjusted. I first thought of ‘permanent’ as per the Oslo protocols, but nothing there is ‘permanent’, and that goes for the wide world itself. ‘Ultimate’ sounded (tongue in cheek) like the apocalyptic ‘end of time’, i.e., never. That’s my only private joke, I own up to it. But some link to a wiki page noting Article V is required, surely? Nishidani (talk) 12:41, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I've removed two of the three Easter eggs. I'll remove on a larger consensus the third because I still don't personally think it fits that characterization. What one personally thinks however is irrelevant.
  • For those editors who, regarding draft 8, this version and some others, see a problem in long drafts not dealing specifically with the key status issue (i.e. not concentrating on the one (of several) conflicted lines, I should clarify that (a) I take arbcom's remit literally, at the top of the page:'This is a discussion to decide the content of the lead section of the Jerusalem article.' This not only does not restrict the scope of drafts to the status issue, but calls on us to iron out the lead generally. Like several here, I'd like to see something that more or less gives us if not 7, then 3 years to compensate for the seven years of fallow (Gen.41 somewhere), which has strained all our nerves. The second point is that the excellent draft 7 most approve have two dots signifying material lacking. My draft accepts it, and leavens out the missing part between the overture and the political end. At least that is the purpose. Thanks. Nishidani (talk) 19:14, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Dailycare. On 'straddle' implying Jerusalem is in Israel, I'll repress my own primary image of what the word evokes (seeing one of my heroes, Valeriy Brumel, winning Olympic Gold in 1964), for another early association which really does fit the sense intended (apart from source support).

'this standing captain is all alive to the importance of sustaining his dignity by maintaining his legs. Nor is this any very easy matter; for in his rear is the immense projecting steering oar hitting him now and then in the small of his back, the after-oar reciprocating by rapping his knees in front. He is thus completely wedged before and behind, and can only expand himself sideways by settling down on his stretched legs; but a sudden, violent pitch of the boat will often go far to topple him, because length of foundation is nothing without corresponding breadth. Merely make a spread angle of two poles, and you cannot stand them up. Then, again, it would never do in plain sight of the world’s riveted eyes, it would never do, I say, for this straddling captain to be seen steadying himself the slightest particle by catching hold of anything with his hands; indeed, as token of his entire, buoyant self-command, he generally carries his hands in his trowsers’ pockets; but perhaps being generally very large, heavy hands, he carries them there for ballast. Nevertheless there have occurred instances, well authenticated ones too, where the captain has been known for an uncommonly critical moment or two, in a sudden squall say—to seize hold of the nearest oarsman’s hair, and hold on there like grim death.' Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Dell ed. 1959 pp.273-4 (chapter 53).

Takes the poles, front and back as the two realities. (Recalling this, I'm beginning to feel like Ahab in here:) Nishidani (talk) 19:55, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

• Pass a Method, in raising an objection for his oppose vote on draft 7, comments that major in 'major Abrahamic religions' is POVish, and suggests oldest as more neutral. I actually thought of the Bahá'í Faith while copying this sentence in from draft 7, but dismissed it out of a purely numerical calculation (the 3 major religions having more members). 'Oldest' puts the antiquity of Judaism, Christianity and Islam on a par, which is not true, but other considerations are possible. But it is certainly worth our attention. Any suggestions? Nishidani (talk) 20:21, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

With all due respect to Pass a Method (talk · contribs), Judaism, Christianity and Islam always clear the bar (based on reliable sources) when one describes religions as "major". See, for example, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Religion#RfC on weight given to religions. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:37, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

That clarifies much, thanks.

• Marechal Ney. The sentence that worries you (as peacocky also) is part of the balancing act. If we take out the dual reference to the history of great power contention over the city, and the aspect of its cultural importance, we get WP:Undue problems with the final part: recent political claims would emerge as 1/3rd of the lead. The problem of snipping out this or that in any drastic way must be handled, I guess, with this overriding concern for structural side-effects. The way the great power bit is phrased also is intended as giving an historical gloss on the religious element in the preceding sentence, while priming the reader for the last item on the I/P conflict. Thanks (also for the compliment). Nishidani (talk) 09:03, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
• User:Yair rand. Fine but note that the part you question most severely is exactly the section which in draft 7 has overwhelming bipartisan consensus (30/4), and which, on that basis, I adopted with minimal tweaks into this version. Nishidani (talk) 07:08, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
• Tryptofish. That's a fair quibble. One could, if one dislikes the much misunderstood functions (also musical) of colons and semi-colons, replace the colon after 'foundational event' with a full stop, thereby lengthening the reading pause by a factor of a quarter, and convert the succeeding clause into a sentence of its own. Belonging to the coelacanthic generation, I have fossil instincts and prejudices however on that :)Nishidani (talk) 09:34, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
  • You could just put a period and start a new sentence after "David's kingdom". No big deal. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:07, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

one of the oldest cities in the world

Telling it is one of the oldest cities, is not only a dull unencyclopedical statement. It is also unapprovable. Refering to the Bible is not so convincing. Old, yes. One of the oldest, just PEACOCKy. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:16, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

It's not saying it's one of the oldest cities, it's saying it's one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities. This is not only true but easily sourced from archeological information irrespective of what the bible says. It's neither dull nor "unencyclopedic," whatever that means. See, e.g. List of cities by time of continuous habitation. What part of WP:PEACOCK do you actually think it contravenes? It's not at all obvious.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Tariq made some excellent points, apropos WP:PEACOCK, but I think we should be wary here of abusing the term to erase any hint that the city is anything but a politically contested place. Peacockery refers to 'puffery' and the promotional (or denigratory) use of adjectives, which have been studiously avoided in this draft. It does not mean 'avoid writing anything that might smack of a sense of literary style,' or 'sensitivity to readers' expectations of enjoyable prose'.

If we compare our drafts to what is actually the practice in city articles, we will see that it is almost punitively conservative and astringently bureaucratic if corrected on all points against any tint of style. Count the number of times a superlative or a first, or most, (famous, noted, major, largest, reknowned, opulent, powerful etc) is used in the leads of the following articles London, Los Angeles, New York, Madrid, Rome, Paris, Athens, Beijing, Tokyo. For that region compare Tel Aviv ("party capital" due to its thriving nightlife, young atmosphere and famous 24-hour culture'); Haifa (most, major, largest, oldest, liberal atmosphere, respected academic institutions important,); Beirut ('one of the ten liveliest cities in the world':'best city in the Middle East') the Palestinian city (like Damascus, for example) articles are far more astringent -Hebron, Nablus (my own addition to this draft was influenced there by the lead summary:’ Nablus has been ruled by many empires over the course of its almost 2,000-year-long history.’)

My impression, therefore, is that WP:PEACOCK is not a problem here, and should not be waved around like a red flag, if we compare what we are writing with puritanical caution to the general style of other major city articles. Nishidani (talk) 10:54, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Fully agree. WP:PEACOCK doesn't mean "WP:Never use an adjective" (sic). Writing without adjectives is dull. The key is to get the right balance, both here and elsewhere in WP. StevenJ81 (talk) 12:48, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

1. ‘The geography of the city closely reflects its ethnic division. The Palestinians occupy the Eastern part of the city, whereas the Jews occupy the Western part and some eastern enclaves created after the liberation/annexation of East Jerusalem. The separation is almost total, and there are no areas of mixed population.’ Shlomo Hasson , ‘A Master Plan for Jerusalem :Stage One-The Survey,’ in Moshe Ma’oz, Sari Nusseibeh, (eds.) ‘’Jerusalem: Points Beyond Friction, and Beyond ,’’ BRILL/Kluwer Law International 2000 pp.15-24 p.20
2. After decades of brainwashing regarding the fictitious entity known as the “unified” city, it’s time to admit the truth. There is no unified city, only a double one, with two cities − a Jewish one in the west and an Arab one in the east. Arab Jerusalem is not a genie that one has to keep in its bottle but a reality. There is an Arab Jerusalem, not an imaginary one, right around the corner. . . . Anyone crossing the dividing line between the two parts of the city, a border that was erased from the map but is still as tangible as ever, notices at once that he is in a different country. This is the East, an Arab country in all its aspects, manners, smells and customs, its cultural and human landscape. This is an Arab city just like Amman and Damascus. One should therefore not talk about dividing Jerusalem, but about looking at reality as it is. The reality is that there are two cities, and we should face up to this reality unflinchingly, since the danger lies not in this recognition but in turning a blind eye to reality. After decades of blindness, one should face reality bravely, with eyes wide open, in order to avoid lurking dangers.’ Eyal Megged ,Jerusalem, a tale of two cities at Haaretz, May.27, 2013.

Draft 15 by Ravpapa

^ view all drafts

Friends: I offer you this option of a lead, not because I believe it will ever receive any support, but just because I like it (it has already been discussed extensively on the Jerusalem talk page, and roundly rejected):

Jerusalem (Template:Lang-he-n (audio), Yerushaláyim, ISO 259-3 Yrušalaym, "Abode of Peace"; Arabic: القُدس (audio), al-Quds , "The Holy Sanctuary"), an ancient and modern city in the Judean Mountains, between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea, is, as it has been for the last 2,000 years, the focus of conflict: the seat of Israel's government, and claimed by both Israelis and Palestinians as their exclusive capital; holy to Jews, Muslims and Christians alike; divided in space between national and religious groups living in wary and sometimes violent proximity, and divided in time between modern skyscrapers and ancient stone dwellings, still inhabited after hundreds and thousands of years.

There is little about Jerusalem that isn't contentious, starting with the most basic facts: what country is it in, and how many people live there. The western sector of the city has been part of Israel since the country was founded; the rest of the municipal area, including the old walled city, Arab suburbs like Shuweifat and Silwan, and outlying Jewish neighborhoods like Gilo and Pisgat Zeev, are on land annexed by Israel after the 1967 war - an act that is central to Israeli policy but which is almost universally rejected by the rest of the world. The Israel census bureau puts the population of Jerusalem at 763,800, making it the largest city in Israel. Yet that, too, is debatable: it includes many Arab residents who were annexed along with the territory and who don't consider themselves part of the Israeli-run city; and it includes many neighborhoods which, before the annexation, were independent municipalities. So, while it has the largest municipal population, it is far behind Tel Aviv as the largest urban center.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft 15

Support draft 15 with revisions

1. Tightened up,(for for example the comment thread below) this is exactly how I'd wish it to be written, even on wikipedia, since it looks at the often brutal realities of historical Jerusalem directly without camouflage, addresses the conflict, adds that it has a modern dimension, which we lack, etc. It's an excellent realist sketch of the city, as opposed to the dour realism of versions that must cope with the pressures, self-censure, compromises, inhibitions and restrictions, of writing both for wikipedia and within wikipedia.Nishidani (talk) 06:57, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
2. I agree with Nishidani above. If it were more concise, I'd support it whole-heartedly. --GHcool (talk) 16:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
3. I like the ideas here, but I see some problems, in my opinion. --Sm8900 (talk) 19:56, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft 15

1. This doesn't seem to comply with WP:NPOV since "the western sector of the city has been part of Israel since the country was founded" is also a claim that is "almost universally rejected by the rest of the world", since no-one except Israel considers West Jerusalem to be Israeli. On stylistic grounds this seems to bring up the conflict quite often. Prefer draft seven or fourteen. --Dailycare (talk) 20:08, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft 15 threaded discussion

Yerushaláyim, ISO 259-3 Yrušalaym, "Abode of Peace"; Arabic: القُدس (audio) (help·info), al-Quds , "The Holy Sanctuary")

• I think this is taken from a draft which precedes the exhaustive discussion that led to its removal because 'Yrušalaym, "Abode of Peace",' was shown to be a false etymology by User:Zero0000 and myself, and perhaps others. Since 'abode of peace' is an unacceptable folk etymology passed off as the real meaning in Hebrew, the literal rendering of Al-Quds, the Arab term, also was removed on the grounds of 'parity'. Such are the workings of wikipedia.Nishidani (talk) 06:50, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
• Nish is correct. There is no evidence whatever that "Yerushalayim" means "Abode of Peace". Actually there is no etymology of the name that is accepted by most experts, though the clear majority favors a derivation from the name of the Canaanite god. Zero 08:00, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

• "The western sector of the city has been part of Israel since the country was founded;"

My reading of the sources is that the divergence of significant views goes back to 1948. That West Jerusalem has been part of Israel since its founding is certainly a significant view, but it is not one that is universally held in RS. See e.g:

The key citation is probably the last one. There is "broader agreement" over "the future control" of West Jerusalem, but its sovereignty status, both today and historically since 1949 is not something that is agreed upon in reliable sources. Dlv999 (talk) 08:45, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Not quite cogent I think with respect to Ravpapa's wording. If you read The Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice, (2004), the highest authority on international law in this regard, you will note it somewhere says that West of the Green Line is 'Israeli'. All contending parties understand this, except Hamas and Neturei Karta (:). That questions remain unresolved concerning the technicalities of the Corpus Separatum doesn't really change this specific consensual understanding. I'm quite aware of course of the technical literature over 'sovereignty' as dlv notes above. It's just that 'western sector' is a rather clever way of stepping round this. Ravpapa is speaking (a) spatially and (b) by the subtlest of nuances, even with a military allusion ('sector' is also used of cities whose land is split up between contending occupying powers. Berlin earlier etc.) Nuance is everything.Nishidani (talk) 21:25, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Maybe my mind is not quite subtle enough to see the nuance, but when I read: "The western sector of the city has been part of Israel since the country was founded", what I understand is that western Jerusalem has been part of Israeli sovereign territory since 1948. That is what it means to be "part of Israel". When I turn to the sources, that is not something over which there is agreement. One of the core principles of our neutrality policy is that we don't state things as facts that are not agreed as facts in reliable sources. I understand that Israel has a lot stronger claim over west Jerusalem than East Jerusalem, and that there is a "broader agreement" over the "future control" of west Jerusalem, but this does not alter the fact that its historical and current sovereignty status is disputed. I'd be interested in the exact language used in the ICJ opinion. I searched the document ( 8.1MB) for a few different terms, but I could not find the relevant statement. Dlv999 (talk) 23:24, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I've absolutely no disagreement with what you're arguing.

Para.83. According to the report of the Secretary-General, in its northernmost part, the wall as completed or under construction barely deviates from the Green Line. It nevertheless lies within occupied territories for most of its course. The works deviate more than 7.5 kilometres from the Green Line in certain places to encompass settlements, while encircling Palestinian population areas. A stretch of 1 to 2 kilometres west of Tulkarm appears to run on the Israeli side of the Green Line.'

Every word in those documents is parsed and combed for weight and nuance. It's the nature of legal prose, for to slip up will cause consequential profit and damage for parties. It hooked itself on the memory when I read it years ago precisely because I am familiar with the literature you quote. I don't however think that here the judges or their clerks are making a legal point: they are writing clear narrative prose. That's the distinction we risk losing. If we can all agree on the strict legal lay of the land, we shouldn't hold every jot and tittle of text to a test of juridical fidelity where the wording is innocuous. The real objection to that line is historical, not legal.Nishidani (talk) 07:03, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft by InsertUsernameHere

^ view all drafts

If you wish to offer another draft, please place its text here. If it is very similar to another draft, please indicate that you support that draft with revisions, rather than offering a new draft here.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft ___

Support draft ___ with revisions

Oppose draft ___

Draft ___ threaded discussion

General discussion

Aspects of drafts

I think all seven drafts are accurate and neutral. It comes down to what aspect (holiness, power, recent history) should be emphasized. Perhaps the last one, number seven, is the best initial sentence for the article because it provides the broadest context about what's going on with Jerusalem. Some of the other statements, or pieces of them, could be incorporated into the lede as well. This should not be so contentious. The situation is that both sides claim Jerusalem as their capital, and Misplaced Pages has no business deciding who's claim is superior. Jehochman 12:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Can we get a draft that unifies the key aspects of the other drafts. Each draft has great points but is inadequate stand-alone. A proposed paragraph that combines those points in a single statement would be much preferred, and far more comprehensive.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

• I took a few moments and combined several elements of the first seven drafts and propose Draft 8 (vide supra).--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

This came up in the prep for the RFC. The people that put together the drafts were focused on the capital issue and how it should be described. That is to say that content being lacking in a draft should not be read as saying that such content should not be included in the lead of the article. nableezy - 15:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for providing some backstory. I agree on the content inclusion issue as well. It is a complex issue, and the more comprehensive we approach it in the view of concision, we can get as close to a clear, neutral and factual statement. Without content/context, a simple statement is inherently controversial.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Participation

Not sure whether this belongs here, but I created the item on Jerusalem on Wikidata, and added the description "city in Israel". It was immediately changed to "capital of Israel", and when I tried to make it more neutral I was harassed by a number of Israeli participants. A thread was open in Hebrew Misplaced Pages, where I was called "antisemitic" (if the Google translate gives it right) and some other unpleasant and ungrounded names. The participants of this thread subsequently came to Wikidata to accuse me in God knows what. I am not sure how harassment of participants of this discussion can be prevented, but for me it was certainly less then pleasant experience.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Source Summary

There are numerous problems with the source summary section.

• First, just before this RFC went live an editor decided he wanted to remove an extremely important point, then went on to make the usual I don't consent, therefore no consensus argument. The point was

No news agency with a guideline for neutral reporting allows Jerusalem to be reported as the capital of Israel.

• Second there are many problems with the "source summary" of "Many sources list Jerusalem as the capital of Israel when there is little room for nuance, but in prose, sources often use qualifiers which show that the status as capital was achieved unilaterally."
• The problems are, "many sources" is actually only a single source so this violates WP:WEASEL. Second, there is no mention at all about the numerous sources which leave blank the capital of Israel when there is no room for nuance, meaning there is no balance and thus bias. Third the statement that "the status as capital was achieved" is from a POV held by less than 1% of the world and disagreed with by the other 99%, meaning it should never be stated as a fact like it has. Sepsis II (talk) 14:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

1. http://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=J#Jerusalem
2. http://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=T#Tel_Aviv
3. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/middle_east/israel_and_the_palestinians/key_documents/6044090.stm#jerusalem
4. http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/j
5. http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/propaganda-or-news-associated-press-names-jerusalem-israeli-city
6. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/11/16/ap-issues-correction-after-calling-jerusalem-isreals-capital/
7. http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/STYLEBOOK.20041110.style_1775/Stylebook/National/

Just to set the record straight, the statement you quote is untrue, which might explain why it was removed. For example, the Associated Press has guidelines for neutral reporting, but the only reference in its style manual to Jerusalem is that it is used alone in datelines. Associated Press articles refer variously to Jerusalem as the capital, the declared capital, and other terms. The New York Times style guide has several references to Jerusalem, none of which specify how its articles are to refer to the capital-noncapital status of Jerusalem. The UPI style manual also does not specify how Jerusalem is to be referenced. (Fair disclosure: I am looking at versions of the manual from previous years. These manuals are constantly updated, and may today include guidelines in this matter. But I doubt it.) --Ravpapa (talk) 05:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

AP is contained in sources 5 and 6; stands alone in dateline plus a revision where they corrected an article that had stated Jerusalem was the capital of Israel. If you have the NYT style guide I would appreciate a quote as it is not free. UPI, like the Economist is irrelevant here as it's for grammar not for advising on political nuances, and I think the AP stylebook is the same. So in total, nothing you stated disproves the source summary. Sepsis II (talk) 04:29, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

You are wrong about just about everything. It is true that AP issued a correction to one article in which Jerusalem was cited as the capital; however a spokesman later said it should not have been released as a correction, suggesting there is no consistent policy in the matter; on the contrary, I have seen AP articles referring to Jerusalem as the capital, as the disputed capital, and have even seen an AP article referring to Tel Aviv as the capital (erroneously). UPI's guidelines are not irrelevant, because UPI does have standards for neutral reporting, and does not have a style guideline in this matter. Same is true of AP. You completely ignored the New York Times, whose manual I cited.

But, more to the point, it is clear from your response that you have not made a comprehensive study of style guidelines of all the syndicated news agencies of the world, and therefore have absolutely no basis for making such a blanket statement. "So in total," you write, "nothing you stated disproves the source summary." No, my friend, the burden of proof is on you, not on me, especially when you make such a blanket statement that encompasses all the major news outlets of the world. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:00, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

As I have already stated, AP and NYT are behind pay walls, since you claim to have accessed them can you please add them as I have twice previously requested. There are two types of guides for papers those that say whether to use "e-mail" or "email" like the Economist and others that I did not include and those that describe how to report politically contentious topics. If AP has " no consistent policy in the matter" as you claim then they would not be considered a "news agency with a guideline for neutral reporting". I will state again, besides AP and NYT which are behind paywalls (and likely just grammar guides anyways), I have compiled a complete list of major news agencies' style guides, none of which allow Jerusalem to simply be reported as the capital of any nation. Sepsis II (talk) 15:06, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Offensive remarks

While I'm all for free discussion, I feel there are a few things that should not be tolerated. For example, I already see one user spewing out denial of the existence of Palestine. I do hope we can all agree that offensive falsehoods like this should be erased as they do nothing to further this RFC and can only detract from it. Sepsis II (talk) 16:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree that denial of the existence of Palestine is very inappropriate. Nevertheless, this procedure is for collecting views. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The best way to deal with extreme views is not to draw attention to them. I am sure they will be ignored in the final outcome. Jehochman 21:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Can someone also deal with GHcool, his !vote rationals like "I don't like the Palestinian claim over Jerusalem (there's no way they'll ever get West Jerusalem in any peace agreement" are ridiculous while his other comments go against the source summary. As an aside, isn't is against policy for GHcool to use his user page to host offensive original polemics? Sepsis II (talk) 17:33, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Can you not do this here? Pretty please? People are going to have opinions you dont like, just as you will have opinions that others dont like. If you think he is wrong refute them. nableezy - 18:00, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Say what you want, and don't focus on what other people say that you don't like. Try to be positive rather than negative. Jehochman 21:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with everyone telling Sepsis to "ignore it". How would hate speech otherwise be tolerated in any other context? What if what was being said was anti-semitic in question? It'd be reported and the user would most likely be blocked. What if it was towards blacks? Hispanics? But anti-Arab sentiment usually seems to get a pass, so I encourage some form of arbitration on this matter, because denying the existence of Palestine is akin to Holocaust revisionism in terms of outright falsehood. Solntsa90 (talk) 07:03, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Hyperbole generates hyperbole. Jehochman and Nableezy are right. We're all grown up here, can interpret bias (which is a pretty normal feeling), without getting on our high horses and making a distractive issue of it which only derails editors from their obligation to focus on the various proposals. Drop it.Nishidani (talk) 10:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Solntsa90, not a single reasonable person takes Holocaust denial seriously as an academic, historical, or even responsible mode of thinking. In contrast, the existence of Palestine is essentially a legal fiction combined with wishful thinking. I am not speaking of the existence of Palestinians or of the Palestinian Authority or of the Palestinian Territories. I am speaking of an independent nation called Palestine that has its own government recognized by its own citizens and by the world that occupies a territory with undisputed borders and all of the other accouterments to which the Palestinian people aspire. This aspiration is just in my opinion and I would appreciate it these rather moderate views would not be compared to Holocaust denial. I must join Nishidani in asking us all to take a chill pill and keep editing with good faith. --GHcool (talk) 16:35, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

denying the existence of Palestine is akin to Holocaust revisionism

No, it's probably more akin to, I don't know, denying the existence of Israel. No one would be blocked on Misplaced Pages for saying that, and it wouldn't be characterized as hate speech. If anything, it'd be characterized as silly. People would then give that person a hard time, devoting countless hours and precious bandwidth fruitlessly trying to show him or her the error of the position, but nothing of value would be achieved. And the same goes here. -- tariqabjotu 16:51, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

More sources on status

Had I come to this discussion earlier, I would have added a few more sources to the source summary above. I've decided to take Mr. Stradivarus's suggestion and give the sources here:

The Continuum Political Encyclopedia of the Middle East is incredibly succinct on Jerusalem's status: "apital of the State of Israel though not recognized as such by most of the international community" (p. 491). This is the first sentence of the encyclopedia's entry under "Jerusalem." Other reference books that explicitly denote Jerusalem as the capital of Israel include The World Almanac and Book of Facts 2007 (p. 785), The Statesman's Yearbook (2005 ed., p. 939), TIME Almanac 2005 with Information Please (p. 797), The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions (p. 285), The World Book Encyclopedia (Vol. 11, p. 94a), Atlas of World Geography (Rand McNally: 2000, p. 44), Webster's New Explorer Desk Encyclopedia (2003 ed., p. 628), and Britanica Online Encyclopedia. Many of the above state that most countries' embassies are in Tel Aviv, but most of them simply identify the capital of Israel as Jerusalem just as they identify the capital of the United States as Washington, D.C. --GHcool (talk) 21:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Well I only have access to the one online source you presented, Britanica, which states that "Jerusalem is the seat of government and the proclaimed capital, although the latter status has not received wide international recognition." So that source has obviously made sure NOT to call Jerusalem the capital of Israel. Sepsis II (talk) 21:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I know this is not a source, but a google search for "capital of Israel" reveals, unambiguously, Jerusalen: Israel, capital. -- Ypnypn (talk) 22:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Google's source for that is...Misplaced Pages. Sepsis II (talk) 22:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The link to Google above doesn't work, thanks to bugzilla:707. -- Ypnypn (talk) 22:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

An ideal lead sentence would look something like Continuum or Britanica's lead. --GHcool (talk) 22:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi GHcool, looking at the Continuum and Britannica' leads I think there is a significant difference in approach:

• "apital of the State of Israel though not recognized as such by most of the international community" (Continuum p. 491) - I did not check the source, I am transcribing from your comment above
• "Jerusalem is the seat of government and the proclaimed capital, although the latter status has not received wide international recognition." (Britanica)

My view is that Britannica states as fact what is fact: that Jerusalem is Israel's seat of government and Israel has proclaimed that it is it's capital. But it does not state opinion as fact: i.e. that the Israeli actions have had a definitive effect on the city;s status (which is disputed).

Contrariwise continuum adopts the Israeli position on the status of Jerusalem: that it is the capital of Israel. My view here is that there is an important distinction between the two approaches and that the Britannica is more consistent with our policies such as WP:NPOV and the principles on which we write the encyclopaedia. Just a brief note on the continuum source. It appears to be an encyclopaedia of the Middle East written entirely by Israeli scholars. This is not to say it's not a good source or that we shouldn't take it into account. Only that it is not necessarily a source that would be entirely representative of the totality of global views in RS on the topic. Dlv999 (talk) 05:59, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Why should we care about it being unilaterally declared? That sounds rather anti-Israel in POV as long as we say that about Jerusalem but not about other countries' capitals; I doubt that there was much multilateral input about having Thimphu, Bogotá, or Abidjan become or remain the capitals of their countries. Nyttend (talk) 05:11, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Why ? Because much of the spatial object called "Jerusalem" described by the Misplaced Pages article Jerusalem is not inside the spatial object called "Israel" described by the Misplaced Pages article Israel according to anyone but the State of Israel. The situation is not similar to Thimphu, Bogotá, or Abidjan at all. It is more like the Democratic Republic of the Congo ignoring the existence of the Republic of the Congo, treating Brazzaville as part of Kinshasa and unilaterally declaring the combined spatial object as Kinshasa, the "complete and united" capital of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. "anti-Israel in POV" ? I think not. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:35, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Repeating what has been explained before, the significance is that the UN decided that no entity had the right to unilaterally alter the status of Jerusalem in any way. All Israel's unilateral moves, including annexation of territory and the declaration of Jerusalem as its capital, are therefore viewed as being invalid and of no standing.     ←   ZScarpia   12:37, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd just like to say to Sean.Hoyland, that's an excellent analogy, considering the status of independence of both Congos from France and the fact both capitals face each other across the River Congo. Solntsa90 (talk) 07:05, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

To answer Div999, I'd support either Continuum's or Britanica's approach. The difference you point out is significant, but either one would be acceptable to me on Misplaced Pages. --GHcool (talk) 16:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I just checked The World Book Encyclopedia again. This is the first sentence of its article on Jerusalem: "Jerusalem is the capital and largest city of Israel and one the world's holiest cities." It is only 3 paragraphs later until the geopolitical concerns revolving around Jerusalem are addressed. Food for thought. --GHcool (talk) 04:32, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Which of course, as a glance at out lead shows, makes an egregious error in stating categorically, 'the largest city in Israel,' without the neutral, very precisely documented clarification our 'if' clause' has added ('if East Jerusalem is added'). One reason wikipedia has the potential to be better than such works in encyclopedic terms, is that the number and variety of its editors compel us not to overlook crucial nuances and things standard works of the kind customarily miss. Even the donkey I once rode in the Old City's streets would have known that - it stuck to the Old City.Nishidani (talk) 06:40, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The World Book Encyclopedia is '"designed to meet the curriculum needs of elementary through high-school students." It is not the kind of source we should be giving too much weight to in our deliberations. Dlv999 (talk) 07:12, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion by Sm8900

I suggest that we simply say "Israel considers Jerusalem to be its capital." that statement seems to me to be fairly accurate. --Sm8900 (talk) 13:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

If so, then per WP:NPOV, since two parties vie for the city, one would write "Both Israel and the State of Palestine consider Jerusalem to be their capital." Any other statement, eliding the other party, privileges one to the disadvantage of the other. Nishidani (talk) 14:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

well, in my opinion, the problem with that statement's phrasing is that the Palestinian Authority currently has its headquarters in Ramallah. I agree that the Palestinian Authority states unequivocally that it is allowed to establish its capital in Jerusalem. my point is that no one, not even the Palestinian Authority, would claim that its capital is currently located in Jerusalem at the present time. Here is an article which describes their current use of Ramallah as their administrative headquarters. Article, jpost.com: 08/20/2010, Fancy restaurants, five-star hotels and new construction sites. Welcome to the new Ramallah, the de facto capital of Palestine. I am open to other phrasing to address the points which you mentioned, of course. --Sm8900 (talk) 15:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Of course, the Palestinian Authority works out of Ramallah, yet it considers East Jerusalem its capital. I fail to understand this persistent difficulty in recognizing that wikipedia's core principle of WP:NPOV must apply to a conflicted situation like this. You simply cannot elide one party or single it out as the only subject of a generalization without prioritizing one of two interests and violating core policy.

The PNA is forced to do work from Ramallah because of a fiat imposed by military and political dictate: the occupying power (the standard international term for Israel's presence across its borders) has forbidden the Palestinian Authority from operating in East Jerusalem at Orient House, which was the headquarters for the Palestinian delegation to the Madrid Peace Talks. served as the PA office to represent East Jerusalem's Arabs interests in negotiations with the Israeli government, Israel refuses to allow them to be present in East Jerusalem despite calls by the EU to revoke the 2001 closure edict.Nishidani (talk) 17:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

okay. then how about, "Israel considers Jerusalem to be its capital. The Palestinian Authority considers Jerusalem to be its capital."--Sm8900 (talk) 17:06, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

In prose style manuals, or at school, it is advised that where two clauses share the same predicate, they should be combined by making one clause, headed by 'both', introducing the two subjects defined by that predicate. In any case, The P(N)A considers East Jerusalem its capital, not Jerusalem. Only Israel claims total sovereignty over the divided city.Nishidani (talk) 17:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

how about, "Israel considers Jerusalem to be its capital. The Palestinian Authority considers Jerusalem to be its capital. The two entities differ significantly over what is geographically considered the borders of 'Jerusalem.' " --Sm8900 (talk) 17:28, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Revised my draft

I revised my draft wording. is that ok? --Sm8900 (talk) 17:04, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

indicate favorite draft

crossing out my own section. right now this seems premature. maybe we could revisit this idea later in some form. --Sm8900 (talk) 01:06, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I thought it might be helpful to set up an informal section here where editors can note what their favorite draft is. I am doing this simply to make things easier for the closers. it seems to me that this could serve as an informal straw poll of sorts. I hope that sounds like a somewhat workable path of action to others here.

you can comment here if you wish. I will make a subsection for folks to actually note their favorites. --Sm8900 (talk) 17:17, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

• draft 14. --Sm8900 (talk) 17:17, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
• draft 1. --GHcool (talk) 23:23, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages requests for comment