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Personal Attacks by HiLo48 against Collingwood26

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

HiLo48 has recently made several remarks against me on List of Prime Ministers of Australia in which he called me "f*cking stupid", "Lib-loving", "Abbott Fanboy" and "F*cking Moron". As you will see I did nothing to antagonize HiLo48 (I have mostly found him to be quite nice tbh). I edited something which he clearly told me he did not like so I asked him to discuss it with me at the talk page to resolve the issue where most of the attacks occurred. Nobody has seemed to have dealt with HiLo48 over this and I don't see why I don't deserve the same treatment as any other editor on here. Can someone please have a chat with HiLo48, thankyou.--Collingwood26 (talk) 02:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Guilty as charged re the naughty words. (And the apology for them.) For the sake of Misplaced Pages I reserve my right to treat with contempt repeated POV, incompetent and illogical edits from someone who can't even discuss a matter rationally. We must not let editing by incompetent, POV pushing trolls ruin this encyclopaedia. Had there not been such appalling contributions from this whinger, my response would not have happened. If anyone thinks sanctioning me is more important than doing something about an incompetent, irrational, POV pushing troublemaker, then smack my bum and send me home, and let the nominator go on his merry, destructive way. This MUST be a boomerang for this editor. Now, given my long-standing contempt for the processes allowed on this page (see my User page), I will say no more in this section. HiLo48 (talk) 03:23, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

HiLo, I understand what you are saying. God knows you say it often enough whenever anybody lodges a complaint. You feel that the best way to deal with those of differing opinions is to abuse and belittle them. Shock them into agreement, in other words. I disagree with you, simple as that. I'd like to see you acknowledge the hurt and disruption you cause, and to learn a different method of handling disagreement. One that complies with wikipolicy and good manners, for example. You're not stupid, and you do good work, but in this area, you have a way to go, I feel. --Pete (talk) 04:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

HiLo acts like this because he pretty much always gets away with it. No acknowledgement that he's aiming to hurt and harass other editors, no remorse. Differences of opinion can be handled politely, respectfully and effectively. But not by HiLo, who feels empowered to treat his fellow human beings with contempt. --Pete (talk) 03:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Awww :( I had written out a long paragraph and then when I went to save it came up as edit conflict ad I was unable to paste and lost my paragraph. Anyway gist of it is, I am upset that you think my edits are appalling. I never try to POV push and if it seems that way then you have my humble apologies. And to be completely honest with you HiLo48, no I don't vote Liberal. But there is really no need to criticize not only me (calling me "f*cking stupid and f*cking moron") but there is no need to call my edits "appalling" either as I generally make sure my edits are of high quality.--Collingwood26 (talk) 03:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

At worst HiLo48 can be accused of calling a spade a bloody shovel. However, Collingwood26's posts and edit summaries have been contradictory and illogical. Has HiLo48 come on a bit strong? Possibly. However, I share his frustration with editors that make nonsensical statements and then get all bent out of shape when called on it. There is no further point to this discussion, this is not something that needs admin attention. - Nick Thorne 04:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Dealing with differences is how Misplaced Pages became what it is today. I draw your attention to the fourth pillar in Misplaced Pages:Five pillars. Is it a pillar of our community or just a dog turd? --Pete (talk) 04:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. The edit summary I saw was extraordinary. WP:BITEY in spades (and shovels). I wish the two would kiss and make up so that a mentor/mentee relationship could develop. – S. Rich (talk) 05:10, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

My posts were contradictory? Please explain that one as I don't understand where your coming from there. So that's it, he is going to get off scot-free? I was banned for a month once because in frustration I told another editor to "f*ck off". I apologized to that editor, and was still banned for a month. Now this guy unprovoked calls me a "f*cking moron" and "f*cking stupid" and he gets no punishment whatsoever?? Am I the only one who sees a problem with this??--Collingwood26 (talk) 05:33, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I can't believe what I'm hearing here, he has refused to apologise to me and instead continued to harass me by saying things such as "appalling contributions" and yet you are all taking HiLo48's side??--Collingwood26 (talk) 05:40, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I am not taking HiLo's side. To the contrary, the edit summary I saw was extraordinary given HiLo's edit history and many Barnstars. But I will not get into the middle of this spat. Your contributions, particularly as to Aussie military history, are noted and worthwhile. So I'll urge you to step back from the ANI and continue to focus on building the encyclopedia. (Please note that many editors call these notice boards "drama pages". Getting into the thick of the drama usually isn't worthwhile.) Get back to your endeavor and you will be a happier editor. – S. Rich (talk) 05:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

But we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Everyone here has a right to edit without getting attacked like that - and we need a system to report these sort of attacks. So we need to make sure we don't blame Collingwood26 for reporting this. I don't think you are, but you're not exactly encouraging him to come back here. StAnselm (talk) 11:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• I've blocked HiLo48 for one month. I found HiLo's comment here to be a clear personal attack, and I also took into consideration that they continued making personal attacks on their talk page after being informed of this ANI thread. HiLo has been blocked for incivility before, so I do not think we can treat this as an isolated incident. The previous time HiLo was blocked for incivility there was a consensus at ANI that the block should be for one week, which is why I chose the relatively long block length this time around. — Mr. Stradivarius 07:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't want HiLo48 to be blocked, people on here hate me enough as it is, I don't want to give them another reason to hate me.--Collingwood26 (talk) 09:19, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

You don't want him blocked ... but you came here to a location where the typical ending is a block for either the reporter or reportee? ES&L 09:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I think that's unfair. I think we can assume that Collingwood26's desired outcome is that HiLo refrains from personal attacks. And the discussion alone won't do it, because (it would seem), there is somewhat of a tolerance for personal attacks, and the victim gets blamed. StAnselm (talk) 11:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, some wise people decised that WP:WQA was not required. If they wanted discussion then that would have been the place. Anyway, don't get me wrong: I always say that "someone else's incivility may explain yours, but it never excuses it" ES&L 11:52, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I know but there's no point blocking him for it, I only came here because I was angry at what he was saying about me and no other editor was helping me so I thought if I posted it here someone could help. I don't see a point in blocking him because as far as I'm concerned HiLo48 is a terrific editor, I would be happy if he says to me he won't do it again.--Collingwood26 (talk) 09:27, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I would likewise be happy with such an outcome, so long as it is founded upon acceptance and a genuine desire to work productively with other editors, especially those with differing opinions, skills or experience. --Pete (talk) 10:13, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Collingwood - please learn to indent properly. Pete: I'm currently trying to find evidence that HiLo ever formally requested to you that you stay off his talkpage as he claims. If he did, I'll be requesting further investigation/action under WP:HARASS - as a minimum, your posts on HiLo's talkpage recently merely inflamed a situation that was already bad enough. ES&L 10:53, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Note: Pete was very clearly advised to stay off of HiLo's talkpage here following the close of another ANI event. That type of poking and harassment is unwelcome, disallowed and was clear escalation of things ES&L 11:52, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Noted, but I did not take that to mean in perpetuity. And reviewing my two contributions there, I find it hard to see how a reasonable person could view them as other than positive. --Pete (talk) 15:13, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Of course it meant "in perpetuity"...what else does "go away for good" usually mean? When you're referred to by HiLo as a "stalker", and boom you show up...that's classic wikistalking and harassment. Unwatch his page. Don't ever go back there ... again, you have needlessly ratcheted up this situation ... the two of you shouldn't even be working in the same sections of the 'pedia from what I see ES&L 18:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

A reasonable person would realize that ANY contribution by YOU to HiLo's talkpage would not be positive. 205.166.218.65 (talk) 18:15, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Comment – Hasn't this been resolved? What is the point of these continuing remarks about talk page bans, indents, edit histories (or should I say "histrionics")? – S. Rich (talk) 18:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• With respect S. Rich, I don't think this is quite resolved yet. I fully agree with the block for HiLo48, not least because of his self-imposed non-swearing vow and my own promise to block him if ever he broke it. But that is only half the story and I think it's reasonable to consider whether Skyring was disruptive in posting on HiLo48's talk page following my own unequivocal request not to do so (with no indication that the request had any sort of time limit.) A second question (raised by HiLo48 on his talk page) is the one of whether civilly expressed incompetence is more disruptive than competent incivility - HiLo avers that it is. I presume he's referring to discussions here where Collingwood26 gets Iraq and Afghanistan mixed up and fails to win any support for his/her chosen wording.

My own view is that Skyring's posting on HiLo's talk page merits a final warning, which I'll be happy to give. I don't think in the absence of a warning that it merits a block this time round. On Collingwood26, I can understand why HiLo was getting frustrated with the discussion at List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Australia but on its own that's nowhere near enough to label Collingwood26 as disruptive. However there are discussions from September 2012 and March this year that suggest this may be a more substantial and widespread problem. It's odd that an editor with a couple of years experience and claiming several article starts still has trouble remembering to sign talk page posts and is seemingly incapable of mastering indents. I'm not myself arguing for a competence block but is there any other way of improving the situation and helping Collingwood26 shape up? Kim Dent-Brown 21:52, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I've asked Pete in no uncertain terms never to post on HiLo's talk page again. I have laid it on a bit thick but my earlier, more polite version obviously got overlooked. Kim Dent-Brown 22:10, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

is there any other way of improving the situation and helping Collingwood26 shape up? Not by swearing at and abusing him, for sure. I'll accept your warning, Kim, and voluntarily withdraw from Misplaced Pages editing for the duration of HiLo's block. Clearly HiLo - and others - are blaming me for stirring him up, and fair enough, my role was not disinterested - I'd like him to face up to the fact that it is not OK to abuse other editors when there is a difference of opinion, and I could see yet another complaint from a target being shrugged aside. This behaviour has gone on for years with no sign of remorse or admission of any error beyond swearing.

Looking at HiLo's post here, it seemed to me that a response was invited. Not to stir him up but to correct two errors. I don't hate anybody, nor do I want to see a heated or hasty response. I would very much have preferred to have a civil and reasoned reply. If that had been forthcoming, we wouldn't be discussing this now.

Nothing in this world lasts forever, and a year, ten years can make a world of difference. Living in the past is a particularly arid and pointless existence IMHO. We cannot change what has gone before, but we can always change our present selves as we learn and mature. Thank you for your contributions, and I'll take myself off for some reflection. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 22:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

To be fair, I think Pete has a point here. Whether or not a response was invited or there were errors, I've long believed if you ban someone from your talk page, you should avoid talking about them on your talk page unless absolutely necessary since despite the wide latitude we give to people to manage their talk page, it's not fair someone can't respond (for the same reason we have to take care when talking about blocked or banned editors). However perhaps a better way to handle it would be to make an explicit request, e.g. 'I believe your comments are unfair/in error but will not be responding because of your request not to post on your talk page but as long as your request stands, can you refrain from talking about me on your talk page?' rather than simply responding.

In any case, a warning is a warning so it doesn't seem that concerning justified or not. The fact that Pete was under the mistaken impression that the request was time limited suggests it's useful reminder in any case and maybe they will now know not to post ever except perhaps for essential notifications; or if they really think things have improved, to query whether the ban can be removed. (Clearly Hilo's comment suggest this is unlikely to be the case.)

Nil Einne (talk) 03:36, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Nil Einne, we recently had an ANI discussion about a user who was "banned" from an admins talkpage, but kept screwing around with a discussion about them on that admins talkpage - and yet another one who believed he had a right to be advised that there was a discussion about them on someones talkpage, and was pretty pissed about finding the conversation. Although maybe not 100% ethical to have that conversation about another editor without inviting them or allowing their input, I would bet it happens hundreds of times a day. ES&L 17:38, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I think this is how you indent? Sorry I only know the basics of Misplaced Pages editing, and yes I created all those pages. I'll leave it up to you Kim if you think a temporary block on HiLo48 is reasonable. I would have been contempt with him telling me it won't happen again. As for those other incidents involving me, one was entirely my fault of which I took the blame. The other latest incident was a misunderstanding between myself and Nick-D which went into an argument.--Collingwood26 (talk) 23:26, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think a block of HiLo48 is merited here, and as Kim knows I have urged sanctions in the past. I've had a fairly long history of interaction with this dude and over the years have come to see him as an unusual case with a short fuse, but a net positive by far. In this case he got salty and he has offered an apology above, though it is pretty minimal. The secondary issue of the post on his talk page has been dealt with. HiLo, I do offer this friendly advice regarding that fourth pillar... before swearing in print, try walking away from the computer for a bit. I should know, I have been doing it for years. Best Wishes, and Trick or Treat, all. Jusdafax 07:52, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
• I can only mirror the sentiments of Jusdafax here. This is like going after a police officer for using excessive force while ignoring the bank robbery he was trying to stop. Want to refer him to Internal Affairs? Fine. But don't ignore the original crime. The other editor here has a history of problematic editing and only just avoided a block during his most recent trip to ANI (in March) by promising to "behave", which he clearly hasn't. HiLo is clearly being punished for using coarse language (which for an Australian is actually not that coarse) while Collingwood26 skates on behaviour that really should be prevented (the actual purpose of blocks around here). Stalwart111 09:11, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
• I agree. But just so its crystal clear, I made the most recent report regarding Collingwood26's editing, here to ANI, three weeks ago.Nickm57 (talk) 09:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

My apologies - I'd missed that one. So, yeah, the one I was referencing was not his most recent. Stalwart111 10:16, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• I tried to offer a way out, toward an unblock, but I don't get much more than "they're totally incompetent and wrong" (without any diffs or useful pointers for me to start looking into it) and "you admins and your boards just enable the POV pushers and stalkers". That's not how to go about a. getting unblocked yourself and b. getting the other party or parties properly investigated. Instead of a "fucking moron" a list of diffs and a paragraph's worth of assessment would have been helpful, and then all of this could have been prevented. Now that I read the last ANI thread concerning Collingwood, yeah, I can see that there might be a problem, but I'm not a PI who can tease out every problem from a long list of edits over many pages. I offered HiLo two options, and he chose the self-fulfilling prophecy: not helping the admin means the admin can't really help you very well, and your opinion about admins will remain what it is. Drmies (talk) 17:36, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Just to make this clear: I offered to consider an unblock request, but even that garnered no more than a "meh". I will still consider such a request, and I gather I'm not the only one. On the other side, the conversation on Collingwood's talk page started by Stradivarius is plenty problematic, oddly in the same way as his opponent's: I'm being singled out, persecuted, nobody likes me. It's that passive-aggressiveness that I find so difficult to work with; at least HiLo doesn't exhibit doesn't really have the passive part, to his credit. In addition, Collingwood can't see where they were wrong in terms of content, and that's not a good thing either. So yeah, this could all have gone down very differently. Drmies (talk) 17:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• And should all have gone down very differently. A month-long block was handed out 5 hours after this thread was opened by an obviously problematic editor with a talk page full of edit warring warnings. Even the most basic overview (nobody expects PI-like investigation) would seem to suggest that while a block for HiLo might be warranted, a block for Collingwood26 would actually have prevented more disruption (his unrepentant POV editing being what prompted the coarse language anyway). The blocking admin clearly looked at previous ANI threads that pertained to HiLo's behaviour (he said so here) so why not the several more relating to Collingwood26's behaviour? HiLo's response to the block is exactly what I would expect from anyone under the circumstances. Why fight to be unblocked if the circumstances in which the block was handed out provide little confidence that a decision will be made in a reasonable manner? (And I suspect HiLo appreciates that a short "excessive force" block would be warranted either way, so why fight for a reduction when you can just take a holiday, let problematic editors edit and be proven right in the long run?) Stalwart111 22:28, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• There are some who say that if someone wants to block an established editor for something like a breach of decorum, they should get a consensus before blocking. Jus' saying. As for the rest of your comments, sure, but much of that is addressed on HiLo's talk page already and the ball is in his court, and has been for quite some time. Drmies (talk) 00:13, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Absolutely, and (to be clear) I'm not advocating the HiLo be unblocked so that Collingwood can be blocked in his place. Only that HiLo's month-long civility block be reconsidered (in its context) and serious consideration be given to blocking Collingwood to prevent obvious disruption by way of POV-pushing OR. Stalwart111 01:06, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• @Stalwart111: my block of HiLo48 wasn't intended to preclude investigation or possible sanctions of the other parties, and the block length isn't set in stone. If we find a consensus here to change the block length, then I'll be happy to do it myself. Also, if you want to have a go at gathering some evidence to support your proposed block of Collingwood26, that would be most welcome. So far, what we have to go on are the ANI threads here and here, as well as the things brought up in the current thread. Diffs and links, especially those compiled by a neutral third party such as yourself, would be most helpful for making the participants here make sense of things. — Mr. Stradivarius 06:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• No, I didn't think it was and I'm not trying to be critical of your block (especially given you seem willing to discuss length), more that the net result is that a productive editor with unproductive language is blocked while an unproductive editor remains free to disrupt the project. The two ANI threads you highlight are relevant but there was a third (which I can't seem to find in the archives, but it is mentioned above) only two weeks ago. In the intervening two weeks he hardly edited then a few days ago he popped up at List of Prime Ministers of Australia and quickly got to 4RR trying to include bizarre, political, POV, original research while at the same time arguing with a group of editors on the talk page, most of whom told him he was completely wrong. His MO (I've seen it three times so far) is to edit war OR into article all the while suggesting, "if you don't agree with it then take it to the talk page" which is a total distortion of WP:BRD. In March it was unambiguous copyright infringement which he responded to by suggesting other editors were "racist" because they dared call him on it (after which I left my own note on his talk page to which he didn't respond). Then there's his "current events" edits in August where he reverted the removal of his patently false original research not supported by references. How many times does someone get to edit-war original research into articles before we work out that someone isn't here to improve Misplaced Pages? Stalwart111 08:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I did some history-diving and found the ANI archive here. I saw the interaction at List of Prime Ministers of Australia, and I thought that a block might have been warranted had Collingwood26 gone over 3RR. However, I only count three reverts (one insertion here and then reverts here, here and here), so I didn't think that alone was block-worthy. Thanks to your links I do see a pattern of POV editing emerging, though, and I think a topic ban from Australia-related topics may be in order. Give me a little while and I will propose one below. — Mr. Stradivarius 05:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I have to take that last part back, as something has come up in real life and I'm not going to have the time to put a proposal together today. (I will also admit to being put in two minds about this by St. Anselm's comment here, which I think is an important point.) If someone else wants to suggest something in the meantime, though, then please go ahead. — Mr. Stradivarius 06:26, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I'm back. Before I start a topic ban discussion, though, it occurs to me that I should get some input on what exactly the ban should be on. From the links above I have seen problematic edits in the areas of Australian politics, Australian military history, and race. I'm thinking of a topic ban from "all Australia topics, broadly construed". I'm also considering adding language about "race topics, broadly construed", but I worry that it may be too broad. What do others think? — Mr. Stradivarius 09:42, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, he basically only contributes to articles relating to Australia so a ban like that would basically be a block. But he has inserted himself into a range of Australian topics in a disruptive manner so it will be hard to separate his constructive edits from his non-constructive ones for the purposes of defining a topic area for a ban. But the continual promises to "behave" only to quickly return to problematic editing reeks of WP:NOTHERE and WP:IDHT. Stalwart111 07:04, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Limited editing time precludes diffs, but I appreciate the willingness to look for consensus. Suggest an Unblock with time served being sufficient. Remember, I have in the past urged harsh sanctions, and Kim accused me of "grave dancing" on the occasion of HiLo's first block. At this point in November 2013 the situation is exactly reversed. Glad to see others agree with me. Let the punishment fit the "crime." Jusdafax 08:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not seeing anything on HiLo's talk page that suggests acceptance or remorse for the personal attacks on other editors. Including myself. A pattern of abuse, continued for years in the past and presumably into the future. When asked to provide diffs for the behaviour he finds so offensive, nothing emerges. This sort of behaviour is reasonably common here. A personality that cannot admit error and consequently all fault lies vaguely elsewhere. We have ways of dealing with incompetent and tendentious editors and I know of know wikipolicy that condones coarse personal attacks on such problem editors, though I see a number of attempts to excuse this in HiLo's case, usually focussing on the bad language and ignoring the personal attacks. We none of us are perfect, but we generally manage to get along and produce our encyclopaedia without biting each other's heads off. If we condone personal attacks, it makes a mockery of our fourth pillar and it dissuades editors from joining or remaining in our project when it gets too poisonous. As per my comments above, I don't think a block is the answer, but neither is turning a blind eye. I'd say unblock him and let him respond here, but he seems to have ruled that out with his one and only post in this discussion. --Pete (talk) 10:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Comment I have seen Mr Stradivarius at work and have immense immense immense respect for them. I have this whimsical vision of this not-so-whimsical situation. And that is that you take someone who is probably one of the most civilized, kindest people that I've ever seen in Misplaced Pages (Mr Stradivarius) and have them walk into a bar where the norm is that if somebody calls you two swear words instead of three it is considered a compliment, how would it look to them?  :-) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:35, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, an interesting question. My first thought, of course, is that Misplaced Pages isn't a bar, and that we probably shouldn't use behaviour in bars as a metric for how to judge civility. But on the more abstract level, I do see what you mean. I'm well aware that what one person can see as incivility another person can see as harmless, and living in Japan, as an ex-pat, I see this all the time. My situation brings me into regular contact with people from different cultures (which, yes, has included a fair few Australians), and I have seen this kind of culture gap first-hand.

I don't want this discussion to get too philosophical - that can be saved for policy RfCs, etc. - but my view is that this culture gap means we should actually make an extra effort to ensure that discussions are at an acceptable level of civility for all the participants, not just some of them. If some participants think that the discussion is less than civil, then they will be put off from contributing, which we want to avoid. An important caveat to this is that we should also overlook things that might have seemed uncivil to some participants, but where incivility was not intended. We are a diverse enough community that it is inevitable that some people will step on other people's toes without meaning to.

I don't think this caveat applies in the current case, however, as I could not see how HiLo48's comments could have been accidentally uncivil. This was a value judgement, of course, and as with all value judgements others may disagree. I'll be quite happy to remove the block or change its length if it turns out that the consensus is for something different than what I chose. — Mr. Stradivarius 04:50, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I think that the main points are that the criticisms of HiLo48 are accurate (and to that I would add mis-reading folks and situations and inability to absorb input/information) but that they are not as bad as them seem due to:

• If you understand HiLo48 they are a rough person and not a vicious person, and are not really meaning or doing harm to anybody. Plus the cultural translation that I described.
• An observation of flaws in the wiki system is that the most vicious people, the ones that are doing harm to other people or seeking to do harm to other people do it with immunity because they know how to use the system and hide their intentions. And the rules dictate that the ones that are much more benign, who are just rough and abrasive get smacked and the really vicious harmful people don't.

North8000 (talk) 21:04, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you North. I'd been trying to word a contribution to this discussion that said exactly that. Your well chosen words are an exact summation of what I wanted to say. I don't believe HiLo means any harm at all. In fact I believe the exact opposite. Your point is eloquent, apposite, and well-made - the tendentious and disruptive, and those who seek to harm our neutrality or our community, or use it for their own agenda, tend to learn the rules very well indeed in order to skirt around them, and often the well-meaning become so frustrated with this that their own behaviour can suffer in an attempt to defend what is proper. Been there, done that, and I suspect most of us have, or at least have almost... No, we shouldn't descend to their level - but gee, it's hard sometimes. Thanks again... Begoon  15:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• I would suggest that the block should at least be reduced in length (perhaps to a week, if Jusdafax's time served proposal does not have sufficient support). Hilo and I are both regulars at In The News, so I've seen plenty of him since he returned from his topic ban early this year. There haven't been any significant issues - he's still blunt and disagrees strongly with others sometimes, but there haven't been the personal attacks that used to be a problem. I got the impression that he'd been making a real effort. Given the history I understand Mr. Stradivarius's reasons for such a long block, but it seems a pity that an explosion in response to what appears to be a classic case of civil POV-pushing should undermine the good progress he was making. Neljack (talk) 05:20, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Neljack's point is well-taken. As another ITN regular, I have seen HiLo make significant progress on his interactions at the feature this year and has also been a contributor that assists other editors. Yes, I hasten to add, he can be blunt, quite blunt indeed, but I count my friendly relations with HiLo among the best I have on the 'pedia... quite spectacular, really, given the mutual hostility a few years back. I think Mr. Strad's block is well-meaning but he lacks the long-term perspective that Neljack and I have. Is our heartfelt testimony here not sufficient? A month is too darn long. And this has turned punitive, not preventative, in my view. Jusdafax 08:23, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Accusations against Collingwood26

• I thought the action against HiLo48 re Collingwood26 was over and done but I see HiLo is now calling Collingwood a white supremacist (both in content and edit summary.) I've asked HiLo to provide a diff or withdraw this, after counting to ten and avoiding my first instinct to withdraw HiLo's talk page access. I didn't do so because I feel personally involved and can't trust my judgement - a while ago I stuck my neck out for HiLo in an RfC and I now feel, frankly, betrayed by him. But if someone with a more dispassionate perspective would care to consider this I'd be grateful. Kim Dent-Brown 20:13, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

HiLo has now provided evidence, and I have to say his comment seems well-justified. Have a look at these diffs. Neljack (talk) 23:06, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

And then there's stuff like this, strange conspiracy theory stuff like this. Then there's bizarre historical revisionism like Manning River Skull (taking speculation from a single source and claiming it as fact) and claims like this and this which were immediately reverted as unsourced OR. We could likely go on. Stalwart111 03:35, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The diffs and linked previous discussions above certainly seem to indicate that what Neljack and Stalwart point out is a serious concern. Yes, accusations of this nature are dangerous without evidence, but it seems in this case the evidence does exist, and maybe has not been acted upon previously. Begoon  15:36, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to those above who have taken the time to flesh out HiLo's 'white supremacist' assertion. Your research is very convincing and I agree that at the very least a topic ban for Collingwood26 from Australian and race-related articles is appropriate. It would have been good had HiLo produced this evidence along with the assertion but I know that's not his style. Nevertheless I'm glad I resisted my first impulse. Kim Dent-Brown 20:03, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support site ban for Collingwood26; diffs provided above show racist attacks on entire groups of peoples black, Jewish, Asian australian. NE Ent 00:48, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support as per the Ent ... this is why WP:BOOMERANGS are so dangerous ... ironic, considering we're discussing problems on Aussie topics. Combine this remedy with the condition-based unblock below - and the IB below that - some degree of normalcy may appear ES&L 01:18, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support site ban for Collingwood26 - in case that wasn't clear from my comment above. Begoon  03:07, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support site ban - I really don't think we have a choice. We're not talking about a legitimate, scientific difference of opinion on race, culture and history - it's good old fashion racism. Stalwart111 05:04, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• Comment Looking at those diffs, they are nonsense and indicate an attitude few of us would support, but is racism or any other unsavoury or fringe opinion really something we ban editors for? In my experience these edits don't last because they are opposed by editors holding more realistic views. WP:WEIGHT and WP:RS make fringe views unsustainable. Just how far do we push Misplaced Pages as an enclave of political correctness, where everyone may edit so long as they share the same views? --Pete (talk) 06:23, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

No, we block editors for racism. We ban editors for recidivism. Stalwart111 07:04, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I see two blocks for personal attacks. What about warnings for (say) pushing a POV beyond consensus? Any information there? --Pete (talk) 07:23, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

If the many talk page warnings and multiple ANI threads (based on POV pushing, regardless of what the blocks ended up being for) aren't enough for you to support a ban, feel free not to support a ban. Stalwart111 08:30, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Are there any diffs? I don't edit the same pages as Collingwood26. --Pete (talk) 09:11, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not a white supremacist, and I have already been blocked for those edits.--Collingwood26 (talk) 23:48, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

We're not talking about another block, we're talking about a site ban. Stalwart111 07:04, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support site ban There is just no planet on which it is acceptable to ask: "Why do the Jews want to exterminate the White Race?" If it is "political correctness" to want to show the door to people who spout such racism, then I plead guilty. We are not obliged to allow racists to spew their prejudiced bile on Misplaced Pages. Neljack (talk) 10:43, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I was blocked for that, plus that happened years ago. I was told to stay off those types of pages and I have. Not really seeing what all the fuss is.--Collingwood26 (talk) 11:31, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure? The edit is less than a year ago and your block log shows no blocks since you made it. Euryalus (talk) 11:43, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Collingwood26, Misplaced Pages is working on a new discussion system, but until then we are stuck with what we have, which means indenting if you are responding to another editor directly. And leaving previous responses in place, as I have done here with Euryalus, who raises a point you should address. I have indented your comment, which I presume (judging by the timestamps) to be a response to Neljack. In discussions like this, it is immensely helpful if we can follow the various threads. There is a useful guide to indentation here. --Pete (talk) 15:35, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Neljack, when you say "We are not obliged to allow racists to spew their prejudiced bile on Misplaced Pages," while supporting a banning of someone you label a racist, just what subset of humanity are you referring to with your "we"? While I agree that some of Collingwood26's statements are indeed prejudiced racist twaddle, I would be interested to see the wikipolicy on banning editors solely for their opinions. This looks like a very slippery slope to me. --Pete (talk) 15:35, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

By "we" I mean the Misplaced Pages community. As for your question about policy, WP:Incivility refers to "personal attacks, including racial, ethnic, sexual, gender-related and religious slurs, and derogatory references to groups such as social classes or nationalities" as contributing to an uncivil environment. As that suggest, I think slurs against groups (such as ethnic ones) can be just as problematic as personal attacks. How do you think a new Jewish editor would feel on coming across that comment? Would they feel like staying here and contributing more to the encyclopaedia? Misplaced Pages must be an environment where everyone can contribute without having to put up with racism against their ethnic group. Neljack (talk) 22:41, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. It's the spewing racist bile that is objectionable, as opposed to being a racist per se. As a broad church, we welcome all editors to contribute, but require they not attack others on the site. This then brings us to wikiprocedure, and I wonder about how we have dealt with past instances of racist bile. I see a pattern of behaviour, but has Collingwood26 been appropriately warned for this specific behaviour? The usual pattern is a series of escalating blocks, with banning as a last resort when it is obvious that the warnings and blocks have had no effect. --Pete (talk) 22:57, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support site ban and following my concerns expressed here. However as with the example Neljack provides and the response to it, I think its a competence issue. Nickm57 (talk) 11:52, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes Euryalus I was blocked, also I am not racist don't have anything against anyones skin colour or eye shape I just don't believe non-Europeans can be Australian. I don't see how that is racist. Would you consider a white person born in China to be Chinese? No of course not, so why is it okay for vice versa??--Collingwood26 (talk) 11:51, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Best. Response. Ever. Kim Dent-Brown 11:56, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I suppose an aboriginal Australian would not be an Australian since they are non-European. Doc talk 12:00, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Like Kim Dent-Brown 12:02, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

No Aboriginals aren't Australians, Aboriginal is a made-up European word for them so even that is incorrect. Most identify with their nation group such as the Noongar or Dharug, etc.--Collingwood26 (talk) 12:03, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

"People born in Australia (including Norfolk Island, Cocos (Keeling) Islands and Christmas Island) on or after 20 August 1986 are Australian citizens by birth if at least one parent was an Australian citizen or a permanent resident at the time of the person's birth". From our article on Australians. Makes perfect sense to me. Doc talk 12:11, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

So then Doc if a European or African was born in China would you consider them to be Chinese? Same logic but I bet you will give a different answer.--Collingwood26 (talk) 12:15, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't know the laws in China. And I'm not discussing this any further with you. Doc talk 12:20, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support WP:CIR siteban per above diff. Kim Dent-Brown 12:08, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Kim have you found any proof yet?--Collingwood26 (talk) 12:09, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

This is sufficient proof for me. Kim Dent-Brown 12:26, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I feel that you are now deliberately delivering the statements knowing you risk a site ban for them. You cannot be this involved in race discussions and so ignorant of the impact of what you say. 192.76.82.90 (talk) 12:22, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Noting that he was already blocked in the past for the specific edits cited, it appears, and the purpose of any actions must be to prevent further disruption and not to simply punish folks for past misdeeds again. Draconian solutions are exceedingly rarely justified. The use of site bans for "having wrong opinions" is a slippery slope for sure -- who knows what legally held opinions will be next to be banned? - Collect (talk) 12:28, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• He was blocked in September 2012 for edits in December 2012 and 2013? NE Ent 17:49, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

You are ALL accusing me of racism and yet not ONE of you has put forward ANY evidence of where I have been racist. If this is the PC freedom of speech restrictions that Misplaced Pages imposes then good luck without me. --Collingwood26 (talk) 12:25, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not offer Freedom of Speech as guaranteed by the US Government via it's Constitution. Would you please address my concern above? Are you honestly unaware of the implications and impact of what you say having been so involved in race-related discussions? 192.76.82.90 (talk) 12:30, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• This says it all in a nutshell. Just, wow. ES&L 12:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

But where in that comment was I being racist towards any group of people? You still have no evidence.--Collingwood26 (talk) 12:29, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

This diff and the others brought forward are, in my opinion, racist and offensive. You may personally not believe this to be the case, if we took a vote, you would find yourself in a tiny minority. My position is that when a person, regardless of their ethnicity, is born a citizen or goes through the naturalisation process, then they are Australian. Personally, I find the sight of someone, whether they were born in Pakistan, the Congo or Tonga, leaving an Australia Day ceremony with their certificate and a sprig of wattle and a glorious smile on their face to be one of the happiest in the world, and we smile at each other and go on our ways, both very proud to be Australian. Saying that "non-Europeans" cannot be Australian is wrong. And offensive. If you wish to continue here, you will keep any such thoughts to yourself. --Pete (talk) 23:18, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per Collect. I don't see enough to warrant a site ban at this time. He's simply dead wrong about non-whites not being Australian, and it's laughable and offensive to most of us that this is his belief. He's best advised to keep that belief to himself and out of WP space. Blocks can be escalated to indefinite, and so a site ban seems like overkill with this editor. He's not even blocked currently and participating here. Someone that needs to be banned right now? Not so sure. Doc talk 12:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Pop over to his talkpage, Doc - and have a quick look around. I think it's moved on from "White Australia Policy" where it clearly states "Australia for the Australians" - not sure where it's up to now - but it's far more offensive than a simple misunderstanding or one tiny point he's "dead wrong" about, in my opinion. Begoon  12:53, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't see a block log even approaching the level of someone who should be site banned. Topic banned or blocked for disruption is one thing. The longest block, from over a year ago, was for a month; and now we're going to a site ban for a currently unblocked editor? I just can't agree with it no matter how foolish I think his opinions are. Unless I saw some major disruption. Doc talk 13:03, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Thankyou Collect and Doc, at least some sensible people here. And yes I can see where people may think I'm racist but in reality Im not. Am I a nationalist? Yes I am but I don't go sticking it out there. I was toldto stay off race-related articles and I have for more than a year now.--Collingwood26 (talk) 12:50, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose site ban, support topic ban. We shouldn't be in the business of banning people for their beliefs, even if we personally consider those beliefs to be reprehensible. I agree with Collect's point about the slippery slope. However, I have seen enough WP:CIR issues with Collingwood26 that I think some kind of sanction is warranted here. The sourcing/NPOV issues at List of Prime Ministers of Australia, the original research at War in Afghanistan (2001–present), and Collingwood's failure to recognise or address the issues that people have brought up in this thread - all of these point to the need for a WP:CIR sanction, in my opinion. I would prefer a topic ban to a site ban, however. A ban from all Australia-related topics and all race-related topics ought to curb the problematic edits, and would also give Collingwood26 a chance to prove themselves in areas where it will presumably be easier for them to remain neutral. — Mr. Stradivarius 13:02, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps tiered responses to that? A short term topic ban after which we can observe any changes in his behavior, followed by an extended topic ban if he fails to exhibit any improvement? The issue lies far more in his delivery than his beliefs. 192.76.82.90 (talk) 13:06, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

The logical next step would be to bar him from making edits specifically on "Australia and race" (that is - specifically dealing with racial issues connected with Australia) unless they have been discussed on the article talk page. The "broadly construed" sort of topic ban would result in him being barred from adding even a date of birth to anyone whose race is mentioned in a BLP <g>. Collect (talk) 14:23, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

@Collect: You're probably right - "all Australia-related topics and all race-related topics" is very broad, and would prevent edits such as the ones Collingwood26 has made to Gold Coast Marathon, which look unproblematic. On the other hand, the present discussion started because of a dispute at List of Prime Ministers of Australia, and there was another dispute a couple of weeks ago at War in Afghanistan (2001–present), and these wouldn't be covered by an "Australia and race" topic ban. Also, from the above discussion it looks like there are problems with race across the board, not just in connection with Australia. I am thinking of proposing a topic ban from "all Australian military history topics, all Australian political topics, and all race-related topics" - however, that will still run into your BLP problem. Can you think of a way to word this better? — Mr. Stradivarius 14:20, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

A narrowly worded topic restriction is better than any which use a sledgehammer on a flea. The "list" discussion did not appear to be any worse than many I have seen in many areas, and using a sledgehammer on it seems overkill. Why not stick to "on any controversial claims about Australian history or race, especially related to Australia, any edit should be discussed on the article talk page"? Collect (talk) 17:16, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

They are not being banned for their beliefs. Racists are free to edit here provided they comply with policy. What they are not free to do, however, is make racist comments because that is disruptive and contributes to an uncivil and hostile environment for people from the groups being targeted. Similarly, rapists and murderers are free to edit here, but if they started bragging about their crimes they wouldn't last long. We are not obliged to tolerate disruptive comments just because people sincerely believe what they say. Otherwise nobody would be sanctioned for personal attacks or incivility. Neljack (talk) 22:53, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Comment This discussion is running perilously close to proving HiLo48's point that naughty words count for more here than poor behaviour. Collingwood26 has shown just by his posts within this discussion that he does not understand the acceptable limits of free speech and has precious little regards for the norms of editing here. (eg: It would seem that he is completely unwilling to abide by the indentation rules in this discussion, although one of his previous edits in the HiLo48 thread demonstrates that he does actually know how to indent text. My only conclusion is that he is deliberately not indenting his posts and, at AN/I, I feel that shows a contempt for the other participants.) This behaviour is congruent with his ongoing statements about Australians of non-European extraction a position from which I note he does not resile. Collingwood26 has been given far too much leeway by admins who seem prepared to act as apologists for his appalling behaviour, but whose delicate sensibilities are offended by the use of the word fuck by an actually constructive editor. HiLo48 has not been inserting unsourced POV rubbish into articles, Collingwood26 has been. HoLo48's infractions against ridiculous and superficial rules of conduct have been confined to talk pages, whereas Collingwood26's malfeasance includes edits actually damaging articles. Am I the only one to see the misalignment of priorities here? I am not an admin, so I don't suppose I can add my !vote to the proposition, but if I were in such a position I would support an immediate and indefinite site ban for Collingwood26. - Nick Thorne 23:04, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

You don't have to be an admin to ivote on a community ban, as it's a community ban. Doc talk 23:50, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

You are not. NE Ent 00:13, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

An admin? Damn right I ain't. Never claim to be one, either. Doc talk 01:10, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I think Ent may have meant that Nick is not "the only one to see the misalignment of priorities here", in answer to that question. He is not. Begoon  05:33, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Then Ent needs to add an "@Nick" before the comment, or something to that effect. A little outdenting or indenting would help as well. There's less confusion that way. Doc talk 05:53, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

My indentation is per wp:indent. NE Ent 11:02, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Cool. "You are not", addressed to no one in particular, is confusing anyway. Doc talk 11:13, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

The closing admin of this thread should understand that those who usually procedurally oppose site bans such as this every time are conspicuously absent. I think it's because of the PC nature of this, and it closes the ranks. I's sad. No one can reasonably claim that this person will be site banned because of their actual disruption rather than their beliefs. Doc talk 09:00, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

And yet there's this, which to me basically says: I don't care who finds my postings offensive. That's disruptive, by definition. Collingwood has repeatedly said he doesn't see why the obviously racist things he has said are racist. He would also, it appears, prefer those who do see them that way to "eat concrete", than be willing or able to understand that such opinions are unwelcome. Until that approach changes, I honestly don't think you're right to say that action is being taken because of "beliefs". It's being taken, if it is, because of an ongoing inability or unwillingness to conform to the norms of polite and acceptable discourse. Or, we allow him to continue not understanding why what he does is offensive, and refuse to prevent the offense it causes. You may not find me reasonable, but I contend it is not about "beliefs" at all. He may believe what he wishes, that's fine - but if he continues to offend, when consensus is that he is offending - and refuses to accept there is anything wrong with that - hmm, not so fine. Begoon  10:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Site ban. We are talking about a site ban here. Not a block for disruption. Not that they are currently blocked for disruption. If this site ban passes it will be because of bullshit reasoning. Doc talk 11:13, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Well yeah, I was countering your argument that it was about "beliefs" - because I truly don't think it is. If I saw any sign that a block might prevent recidivism, I'd change my !vote in a heartbeat. If I believed the point was made, and the editor "got it", and was able to refrain in future - I might not even support a block. I'm not getting that from Collingwood, though. At all. And the collateral damage from allowing this stuff with no sanction or credible promise to stop is too much. Begoon  11:33, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

First you all wanted me banned because you believed I was a "racist", then when you couldn't provide any evidence of that you have decided to ban me for "disruptive behavior"???

What disruptive behavior? I follow the rules here on Misplaced Pages--Collingwood26 (talk) 11:33, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Collingwood, you really need to read what people say. The racist comments, and your unwillingness or inability to recognise them are the disruption. It's all explained above, in this very long thread. (I fixed your indent...) Begoon  11:41, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

But those are comments which are a year old, it's not that I'm unwilling it's just that you keep calling my comments racist when you haven't shown a single comment where I have vilified another race, WHY? Because I'm NOT RACIST!!!--Collingwood26 (talk) 12:12, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't going to reply - because, frankly, if, even after multiple requests that you show some respect for the people you are conversing with and the community, and make the minimal effort to indent properly, you still refuse to do that small thing, then a reply is undeserved, and you pretty much said nothing new anyway. However, I will say this: your continual "but it's a year old" etc... holds no water when the racist comments you have made in this very thread (Aboriginals are not Australians, Asians can't be Australian etc...) are, well, in this very thread. The ones on your talkpage were made in the last 24 hours - I diffed one particularly obnoxious one above. Excuse me now - I have concrete to munch.Begoon  12:50, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? By excluding a race from your definition of nationality you are being racist. Racism does not require vilification - it simply requires exclusion due to racial characteristics, or situation of birth. The Misplaced Pages community has significant jurisprudence in community-bans against those who spew their racist filth (aka disruption) on the project - whether KKK, Neo-Nazi's...or garden variety exclusionists like yourself ES&L 12:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Won't some admin mercifully block the editor already? Even indefinitely, if that's satisfying. For... continued disruption, shall we say? Then at least we can close this kangaroo ban court. I have never seen a ban discussion with flimsier evidence put forth to warrant a site ban. Doc talk 13:06, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Not at a site ban stage, and if we are talking disruption, then AN/I and an editor's own talk page are kind of exempt from the normal pattern of discussion anyway. Perhaps a warning not to persist in such behaviour now that a selection of editors have made their feelings known, and a five day block to reflect on the matters raised here? --Pete (talk) 16:58, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• • There are some strongly divergent opinions here about what to do, but virtual unanimity that something should be done. I'd support any bold admin who took a decisive step to end this uncertainty and make a ruling on what the sanction should be. Please will someone step up and close this decisively? Kim Dent-Brown 23:32, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• I suppose I would be comfortable with it being wound back to a topic ban but it would need to be broad and I disagree with attempts narrow it down. With respect to Collect, the most recent suggestion of "on any controversial claims about Australian history or race, especially related to Australia, any edit should be discussed on the article talk page" is way too narrow. He needs to be prevented from disrupting those topic areas where he has edit-warred and POV-pushed, being Australia and race, broadly construed. His attempts to edit-war the word mulatto into a non-race-related news item (thus turning it into a controversial claim about race) should be proof enough that this needs to be broad. There are millions of articles not related to either race or Australia and if he really is here to build an encyclopaedia (as opposed to pushing his fringe, racist rubbish) then he shouldn't have any trouble at all finding something else to edit for 6 months or so. He should go and write about vintage motorcycles or American science fiction or communicable diseases and demonstrate to the community that he is capable of functioning as a useful contributor. If he can't or won't then his intention to remain disruptive is clear and a site ban is appropriate. Stalwart111 00:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

• It's only "disruptive" if there's a possibility any of the 119,004 Misplaced Pages editors are of Asian, Jewish, or mixed European African heritage. Such espoused viewpoints are incompatible with 'Editors such treat each other with respect and civility. NE Ent 00:06, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps it's only disruptive if there is actual disruption? When the work of the community is impeded, rather than some unquantifiable and unrealised potential outrage. It's not as if every Wikipedian of X ancestry is going to line up to read and be offended by Collingwood's racial notions on his talk page or here in this police court or on the X article page. In any obviously race-related article there well may be racial viewpoints expressed, such as the normally alarming frequency of the N-word here. There has got to be some understanding of circumstances, and there has to be some actual disruption, otherwise we are placed in the position of attempting to measure the outrage of things as yet unsaid and as yet unread by people who are not ourselves. We are not the secret thought police.

There has got to be a formal warning not to make offensive racist statements, underscored by examples, and backed up by a reference to policy. Possibly a short block to allow reflection. And a clear understanding that if this behaviour goes on, it will not be tolerated. So far I haven't seen any reference to previous warnings along these lines. If there have been, perhaps diffs could be supplied? --Pete (talk) 01:34, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

A short block to "allow reflection" would be punitive in its nature rather than preventative. Trust me, if this editor screws up they will be "corrected". Doc talk 02:45, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

We're not just talking about an impact on editors, Pete - he tried to edit-war the word mulatto into Portal:Current events which is perma-linked directly from the Main Page. I'd suggest that is definitely a page readers and editors alike might "stumble upon". And surely you're not equating behaviour like that to using the word "nigger" at Talk:Nigger?!?. The "circumstances" are that Collingwood26 has continually and unrepentantly pushed his racist POV while claiming not to be racist (with which overwhelming consensus and common sense disagree). This is not a matter of editors being "secret thought police" because Collingwood can't seem to keep his thoughts a secret at all. Misplaced Pages doesn't exist to accommodate fringe racists who seek to promote that view rather than contribute worthwhile content. Stalwart111 03:00, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Then freaking block him. The fact that no admin has done that yet speaks volumes. A site ban leap is unwarranted. Doc talk 03:08, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Stalwart! I'm unfamiliar with the volume of his work. Was there any discussion over that edit, any warnings? The note at the top of this page requests diffs, and when the evidence is directly laid out for everyone to see, finding consensus may be a lot easier, than when it is filtered through various perceptions and summaries. --Pete (talk) 05:29, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

With respect, Pete, we're going around in circles. Many diffs have been provided above (including by you) and editors need not be individually warned for each problematic edit before the community is allowed to take action on the sum total contribution history. His talk page history is basically limited to two things - MILHIST newsletters and warning notices. Beyond that, having now had his whole problematic editing history laid bare, he refuses to accept there is anything wrong with his conduct, refuses to accept that his fringe POV is incompatible with constructive editing and refuses to accept that his constant edit-warring is disruptive. Beyond even that, if you are still not convinced by the diffs or by his attitude here then feel free not to support a ban. I think a block at this stage is completely pointless. This requires a longer-term solution to counter what is obviously a longer-term problem. Stalwart111 12:33, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

No disagreement that diffs have been provided for generally offensive edits, and I've linked to his block log showing blocks for personal attacks. But a close reading of discussion here shows no diffs for warnings or other expressions of community concern about racist edits. I feel that editors pushing a particular course of action should bring evidence forward, rather than invite their audience to go hunt for it. I'm not going to support a site ban without seeing that there have been attempts to resolve the situation through the usual wikiprocess, and that goes further than a few editors grumbling at each other on talk pages. --Pete (talk) 15:45, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Alternative proposal: Topic ban for Collingwood 26

User:Collingwood26 is topic-banned indefinitely from the following three topic areas: 1) Australian politics, broadly construed; 2) Australian history, broadly construed; and 3) race-related topics, broadly construed. The ban is subject to the usual exceptions, and can be appealed to the Misplaced Pages community after six months by a discussion at the administrators' noticeboard. Violations of this ban will be enforced by an indefinite block.

It is not really clear to me why anyone is working hard to keep this editor here. I think there's a very good chance of disruption down the road. But since several editors seem to think a site ban is too harsh, I'll enact the topic ban instead, in spite of the fact that there is a very good case to be made that a there is consensus for a site ban. It is 100% clear that a topic ban is the least that people want, so there's no need to keep this thread open forever. After re-reading Collingwood's many race-related comments, I've made the topic ban on race broadly construed as well. I'll also note that if Collingwood starts to disrupt any other topic area with POV pushing and nationalistic/bigoted crap, I'll simply indef block him with no further warnings, and no fanfare. He's on his 9th life.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I propose the following topic ban, as an alternative to the site ban proposed above:

User:Collingwood26 is topic-banned indefinitely from the following three topic areas: 1) Australian politics, broadly construed; 2) Australian history, broadly construed; and 3) race-related topics. The ban is subject to the usual exceptions, and can be appealed to the Misplaced Pages community after six months by a discussion at the administrators' noticeboard. Violations of this ban will be enforced by blocks of increasing length.

This proposal aims at finding the middle ground between topic ban proposals by Collect and by Stalwart111. I have deliberately left "broadly construed" out of the definition of the third topic area to try and satisfy Collect's concern that a topic ban on all race-related topics would be too broad. I realise that this proposal might not satisfy everyone, but I hope that it will gain enough support to avoid the need for a site ban. — Mr. Stradivarius 02:35, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. — Mr. Stradivarius 02:35, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Comment - it would need to be specified that "racist" applies to discussion of Jews or Jewish people, as the outrageous comment "Why do the Jews want to exterminate the White Race?" shows, I can't believe that comment has been allowed to sit there for nearly a year, it should be removed. Collingwood26 says above "I was blocked for that, plus that happened years ago" but that is incorrect, that comment was made on 13 December 2012 and his last block was on 4 July 2012 .Smeat75 (talk) 03:12, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I mean "race-related topics", not "racist", should be specifically stated to cover Jews / Jewish people for that topic ban to be an acceptable sanction.Smeat75 (talk) 03:17, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

• Maybe I'm the last one who should open their big trap here, but I do think it's time for bold admin action (it won't be from me). Another topic ban suggestion is fine--but how long does that take to attract enough interest for a consensus to be established? (This thread has been here so long that most visitors probably don't even look at it.) I think rather that the above thread should be closed, in the appropriate manner: there is a consensus, and the participants gave their opinion in good faith with the expectation that something be done with their opinions. If Collingwood wishes to do something about it (ie., a ban) they can apply for a modification on AN--along the lines you suggest above, for instance. What else do we gain by that, except for a decision? The need for complete realization of the problem on the part of the editor, which I still think is lacking. Drmies (talk) 03:52, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Au contraire, my good Doctor, this is the one you're reading very well and should be the one you close :-) ES&L 10:13, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

There's some merit to that statement too, MrMies - but shit, I wouldn't do it either, rewards in heaven may be real but they don't pay the lawnmower man - it's not worth the paperwork (and I can't even imagine, and don't want to, your Inbox) Isn't it just crap when we all know what we should do, but we have different ideas about the best way to do it? Or is that just life? answers on a postcard please...Begoon  15:04, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

No, it should not be closed. There is no rush to ban this editor. Or is there? Where's the disruption to warrant the ban? ivotes? Where's the disruptive socking? And where are the folks that deride community bans without good process? Absurd is what this is. Doc talk 03:58, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I cannot understand how anyone could look at everything from here back to the top of this page and suggest that there is no disruption. Mentioning socking is also a very strange thing to do, because nobody has accused Collingwood of that. So why the red herring? As for whether there a need to rush, I guess he's only been messing things up for around two years now, so another year or two shouldn't matter. (Do we have a sarcasm emoticon?) HiLo48 (talk) 07:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I mentioned socking because that is typically the type of thing that should be considered when advocating a site ban. We don't site ban people just because we don't like the cut of their jib. We do it to prevent disruption in the most extreme cases. At least that's how we should handle site banning. Doc talk 07:34, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support The fact that some editors simply wish to use a "Wiki-oubliette" does not mean that such an act would be right, as I have laid out above. Such a delimited topic ban makes sense - although I think a "set term" of one year would be sufficient indeed. BTW, a "site ban" which as a !vote of 7 to 3 at the end of three days or less is not a mandate for action on this noticeboard. IMHO, it does not reach a consensus sufficient for a site ban of any editor. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:47, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - Oppose, as written. I would switch my support to this proposal iff the wording was altered to "Australia, and race, broadly construed", as suggested above. No set term. That makes no sense. The editor realises, or does not, what is required. This is not determined by a calendar. Begoon  14:05, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban, either per original proposal or Begoon's amendment. NB to closer: this section is not independent of the one above, where several people gave an opinion on a limited topic ban as opposed to a site ban. The two need to be read together. Kim Dent-Brown 14:37, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Way forward for HiLo

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Way forward At this point, I would be willing to offer HiLo a simple unblock condition, mostly centred on what would normally be considered in the old days as "civility parole". I recommend this:

"Although swearing is permitted on Misplaced Pages, that which is used as a direct or indirect personal attack is not. Any edit that breaches WP:NPA, whether including swearing or not, will result in escalating blocks, beginning with 1 month. Any admin implementing the block has wide lattitude in determining whether the edit appears to be a personal attack or not. Although civility is not optional, this specific restriction is in effect for 6 months. This restriction will be listed at WP:RESTRICT"

Feel free to modify, and once it's acceptable to the community, propose it to HiLo and unblock immediately once accepted. ES&L 15:24, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Seems eminently fair and reasonable to me, and presents a way forward that benefits the community and the editor, in that it sets clear conditions which they may easily adhere to, and which may be straightforwardly "enforced". I'd support that without alteration. Begoon  15:36, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support an uninvolved admin offering to unblock HiLo with those conditions attached. Stalwart111 06:52, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• I support this in principle, but given HiLo's comment here, I doubt it will be effective in practice. Specifically, I mean the parts where HiLo says "what you insist is unacceptable (the swearing) is actually, again, making this a better place", and "yet again, my view on what works here has been vindicated". If HiLo is of the attitude that incivility is an acceptable way to solve problems on Misplaced Pages, then this proposal will just be delaying the inevitable and we may as well keep the current block in place. — Mr. Stradivarius 09:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

WP:ROPE? It's not about the swearing, it's the NPA's ES&L 10:53, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, perhaps my wording above wasn't the clearest. I do support this proposal - it makes sense, it will allow HiLo to edit while also stopping the personal attacks, and I am also a believer in WP:ROPE. It's just that HiLo's comment doesn't give me high hopes for its effectiveness. — Mr. Stradivarius 12:34, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

HiLo has said on his talk page that I am misquoting him here. This wasn't my intention - it was a long post, and I like to keep things to-the-point - so let me give a fuller quote, and offer my apologies if I misled anyone. This is the second half of the post:

So, as I've now posted in both the threads above and below, I'm no Superman. I was confronted by misdeeds clearly now identified as unacceptable, not being handled effectively by the community. My frustration was at both. And the situation is STILL not resolved! (So my frustration still exists!) Similar events will obviously happen again, at least partly because I try to stop the bad postings here. I cannot guarantee that I will not again over-react when put in that or a similar situation. I'm just human. (And from a culture where swearing simply IS part of many people's behaviour in such situations.) Had my swearing been towards a well-behaved editor, all criticism of me would have been valid. It wasn't, and it wasn't. My swearing was directed towards a very poorly behaved editor the community was doing nothing about. Just delivering warning after warning after warning after warning after warning after warning.... Obviously pointless. Where was the escalation in Collingwood26's case? Then I swore at him. Now something might be done about him. So again, what you insist is unacceptable (the swearing) is actually, again, making this a better place. You haven't convinced me of much at all. All I know is that the trigger fingers are for naughty words, no matter what the circumstances, and the far worse, incompetent, irrational racism can insidiously go on forever. But those naughty words can actually achieve good things. I know you don't want that to be true, but it is, isn't it? (I didn't do it deliberately this time, but yet again, my view on what works here has been vindicated.)

To get the best picture, I encourage people to read the whole thing. — Mr. Stradivarius 08:08, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support in principle, although I doubt that HiLo48 will want to humble himself (as he would probably see it) to make such a request. Moreover the diff posted by Mr. Stradivarius just above here leaves me feeling that it is only a matter of time before we have another episode. HiLo is happy to agree not to make personal attacks against people he perceives as behaving reasonably, but reserves the right to do so against people who do not meet his standard of reasonable behaviour. He has previously agreed not to swear again on Misplaced Pages, a voluntary agreement which I thought was a noble gesture and which, when adhered to, kept him out of trouble for a good while. But he can't resist adding aggressive language to his attacks and his defence is that "it's OK in my cultural setting" which is odd for someone who complains about the culture-bound biases imposed from other parts of the world on Misplaced Pages... Well, that's a pretty poor way of me making a case for support to an unblock request, but I'm afraid my supply of AGF is all but used up in respect of both HiLo and his interlocutors! Kim Dent-Brown 11:49, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• What would be an "indirect personal attack" with swearing? Saying an idea was bloody daft? Or would it have to be something more like "I'm going to be blunt: if you haven't got a fricking clue as to what is civil and what is uncivil, stop accusing others of it"? NebY (talk) 16:37, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• FWIW I think this edit might be an example (see edit summary) - not actually very sweary but unnecessarily hostile. I certainly wouldn't block anyone making that kind of edit for the first time, but after all the warnings HiLo has had I personally would see such an edit as blockworthy now that we are where we are. YMMV. Kim Dent-Brown 17:35, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, that's clear and direct, and I quite understand the desire to ban indirect attacks too. We've seen enough right here, such as this (see the edit summary only for what it doesn't say). But I worry about including "indirect personal attack" in the unblock condition. Those who phrase their criticism carefully can equally see any criticism as an indirect personal attack. Worse, I fear that some would seize on any swearing as a clear indication of an "indirect personal attack", declaring it literally offensive. NebY (talk) 18:25, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• I agree indirect attacks are harder to pin down and I share your unease about them. We have to go hypothetical here: my take would be that "You are a fucking moron" is both direct and swearing. "That edit was fucking moronic" would be indirect and swearing. "You are a spectacularly stupid editor" would be a direct attack but with no swearing and "That was a spectacularly stupid edit" would be indirect and not swearing. IMO the first two would merit a block under the proposed scheme of things, and the third might do so, whereas the fourth would not. The threshold is a subjective one but my own feeling is that the first three exhibit a degree of direct aggression that the fourth does not, which strikes me as disruptive. Kim Dent-Brown 20:16, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Comment The proposed block lengths seem a bit inflexible. Should an indirect personal attack (e.g. Kim's examples of: "That edit was fucking moronic") really get a month-long block? The sanctions need to be proportional to he seriousness of the conduct. I don't see why we can't trust admins to use their judgement in evaluating that and determining how long the block should be. Neljack (talk) 23:29, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Um, he's currently blocked for 1 month for personal attacks. Because of that, his first block would simply replace the currently existing block and escalate from there as per standard processes. He doesn't get to go back to square 1 with block lengths ES&L 23:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• I've seen enough, and have unblocked HiLo. Now, I don't believe in escalating civility blocks, and I don't really see a consensus here for some kind of detailed 12-step program. Y'all can go semanticize about that if you like. Suffice it to say that next time HiLo loses his temper he'll be blocked. May I suggest to the next blocking admin that longer civility blocks (like, longer than a day or two) are in my opinion totally counterproductive? Thanks, Drmies (talk) 04:01, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I have immense respect for Drmies and Mr. Stradivarius and they should be thanked for their excellent work, (and enjoy interactions with HiLo). I think that Mr. Stradivarius being one of the most civil and nicest Wikipedians made the behavior look rougher to Mr. Stradivarius than it does to me. North8000 (talk) 04:15, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree that civility blocks that are longer than a day or two may be counterproductive for one-off incidents; but if a user has shown a long-term pattern of incivility then I think longer blocks fall under "deter the continuation of present, disruptive behavior" in WP:BLOCK#DETERRENT. If we do not deter incivility and personal attacks, then it seems obvious to me that the occurrence of incivility and personal attacks will increase. There doesn't seem to be anything in the blocking policy to suggest that civility blocks are exempt from the principal of escalating blocks. If you wish to see such an exception, then you should probably seek to change the blocking policy rather than asking people here. — Mr. Stradivarius 05:16, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think a consensus yet exists to unblock, especially for a no-strings-attached unblock such as the one Drmies has made. I have left a longer explanation on my talk page. For here I will just say that I don't support an unconditional unblock, especially given the diff I included in my earlier post in this subsection, and that I urge Drmies to reverse his actions. — Mr. Stradivarius 05:00, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Your proposal didn't single out HiLo; it read as a general policy. Furthermore, I think it's clear that this isn't a "no-strings attached" unblock: HiLo knows very well, and I indicated, that further incivility will result in further blocks. Now, the principle of escalating blocks was not brought down by Moses on a stone tablets; perhaps WP:BLOCK should be cited in full, esp. since the suggestion is made that I propose changing policy:

    Blocks serve to protect the project from harm, and reduce likely future problems. Blocks may escalate in duration if problems recur. They are meted out not as retribution but to protect the project and other users from disruption and inappropriate conduct, and to deter any future possible repetitions of inappropriate conduct. Administrators should be familiar with the circumstances prior to intervening.

    Last things first: it's clear to me, and to many of the participants in the discussion immediately following the block (before "the way forward"), that there were in fact circumstances--in fact, mitigating circumstances. I have yet to see proof that escalating civility blocks have any effect on "deter any future possible repetitions of inappropriate conducts". Now, one can easily argue that my unblock still resulted in an escalated block; HiLo's last block was indefinite but was changed to six days (total) after ANI discussion, and his latest block was about seven days. But keep in mind that this is HiLo's third block (or fourth, depending on how you count), but the last one was eight months ago.

    Stradivarius also pointed at a previous diff--I hope I got the right one. For the record, there is an argument in that diff, and I don't agree with the meat of it. I think that HiLo could have handled the situation much, much better, and they could have prevented themselves from being blocked. I also don't agree that it's HiLo's cussing that led to possible action against Collingwood; it's rather the willingness of contributors here that led to it, despite HiLo's comments. In other words, HiLo was wrong and wrong, and my unblock should not be seen as an endorsement of their comments. I tried days ago to help them out, and my efforts failed spectacularly. My unblock is not the result of my being friends with HiLo--I doubt that we are--but of the comments placed in this entire thread, not just this subsection.

    Be all that as it may, I made a decision to unblock HiLo because I think that, for now, the project is better off with him than without him. There is an interaction ban between Skyring and HiLo, and I have hope that this will prevent at least some of the hullabaloo that led to the current situation. I also await another admin (I asked Stradivarius) to close the Collingwood section, which I think has reached critical mass. I don't think that any decision there will necessarily prevent HiLo from losing his cool again in the future, but if you think he's irredeemable you might as well block him indefinitely. I don't think he is. Now, though I disagree with Stradivarius, I continue to respect him as an editor and an admin, and though I disagree with HiLo's comments that led to the block (including the almost interminable complaints about the inefficacy of this board and the admins that make decisions), I think he's a net positive who got blocked righteously and unblocked reasonably. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 05:50, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

    • Correction: the unblock proposal's terms were proposed by EatsShootsAndLeaves; my apologies for ascribing it to Stradivarius. ESL, I don't know if you can live with my unblock; I hope you can. Drmies (talk) 05:59, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
• Misplaced Pages should be free from CIVIL violations, and should foster a pleasant environment focused on building the encyclopedia, and editors who cannot comply with reasonable standards of collaboration should be removed. However, even more important is that Misplaced Pages should be free from contentious and misguided contributors who exploit Misplaced Pages's open structure to push their POV. Such contributors suck time and energy from good editors who have to play all the rules—AGF, BRD, CIVIL, CONSENSUS, consensus-can-change, ad infinitum. I support strong blocks for uncivil behavior provided such blocks occur after any underlying problems are removed. The real problem is that Misplaced Pages's procedures for handling editors like Collingwood26 are very weak, and it is not helpful to leave that problem unattended while knocking out good-but-uncivil editors who have exhausted their patience. Johnuniq (talk) 07:28, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• Whoa whoa whoa ... what happened here? We have consensus that the unblock conditions stated above be presented to HiLo...if he accepted them, then unblock was to be done ASAP. There is zero consensus to unblock in any other manner. Again, unblock without conditions has zero support ES&L 10:23, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

That's not true. Jusdafax and I called for an unconditional unblock. Neljack (talk) 14:28, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Neljack is absolutely correct. To repeat: both of us are familiar with HiLo from WP:ITN, and have the background to understand that this case is complex. I fully support Drmies unconditional unblock. Jusdafax 20:51, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• I can't view a consensus for removing the block on HiLo, so am a bit surprised that Drmies unblocked HiLo. This is not to take away credit from Drmies who has worked really hard on attempting to resolve the situation. So all I'll perhaps suggest to Drmies is to reverse his unblock, wait for a clear consensus to develop for the unblock, and then unblock HiLo. Wifione 16:50, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Thing is, I can't even see much of a consensus for the month-long block on HiLo. I see a very clear consensus for measures against Collingwood, even a consensus for a site ban, but no one has seen fit to act on it. (And I'm not going to--I'm deep enough in panda shit already! :) ) So no, I don't see why I should reblock, though I appreciate your comments. Look, what we've seen in this thread is a. there are problems with HiLo's style and comments; b. there does not appear to be a consensus for such a long civility block, esp. since there is no evidence whatsoever that their other edits are problematic; c. it has been established (despite HiLo's unwillingness to really help out in that area) that a talk page provocation and a pattern of disruption by two other editors was instrumental here. In addition, HiLo had a week-long block.

    Why don't we just move on, get someone to resolve the Collingwood thread, and wait and see what happens? It is obvious that further infractions on HiLo's part will be followed by blocks, and those will probably be longer (again, I disagree that this is helpful, but that's just me). ROPE and all--ROPE, no pun intended, is the attached string (that is always the attached string, by default: it's human nautre). Let HiLo get back to editing and see if he can maintain some decorum. If he can't, we can handle it easily: a block is just a matter of pushing a button. And doesn't this thread prove that blocking is so much easier than unblocking? and aren't there enough editors here who think that HiLo, for all his potty talk, is a net positive and should get back to work? Drmies (talk) 19:02, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• Agree with Drmies. Further discussion is moot in this venue, as I see it. Suggest we close. Jusdafax 20:51, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I fail to see how putting one's fingers in one's ears and saying "I CAN'T HEAR YOU" is the right way forward. I have to admit, I'm shocked - Drmies is one of those people AND admins I have a lot of respect for and faith in - but this one-sided unconditional unblock has me right flabbergasted. As can be seen from HiLo's talkpage, I've been trying very very hard to get him to understand how means does not justify the ends, and to actually get them unblocked. However, this unconditional unblock was wholly contrary to the intent of this sub-thread, and similarly contrary to consensus. The fact that 1 or two of you say "it's ok, great" is literally unbelievable ES&L 21:23, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• Interesting developments - been at work all day so couldn't comment until now. I'll try and make this succinct! I disagree with Drmies' assessment of the consensus here and I also think he was wrong to unblock HiLo. (For which you can read "I wouldn't have done that myself".) My reading, FWIW, is that there was no consensus to unblock but that there may have been one to reduce the length or to unblock if HiLo accepted certain conditions. However. Now that Drmies has unblocked I'm going to support his decision, argue against any reblock and move that we close this discussion. Call it a good use of WP:IAR if you like - the unblock was a way of cutting the Gordian Knot that this had become. Almost any decision is better than no decision at this point, and I don't think we were near a decision. Or call my response an example of WP:FUCK - viz. : "Suffering (conflict and stress) is caused by attachment (giving a fuck) and can be relieved by detachment (not giving a fuck)." So, Drmies has enacted something I would not have done. Meh.
  

So why are we in a better place now? Drmies has told HiLo that "I've argued repeatedly that there was a context (here and in other high-profile incivility cases), but the community is less interested in your disclaimers than they are in a promise from you to tone it down." HiLo can be in no doubt about the future consequences of poor behaviour, and in case he is I'm going to be bad cop to Drmies' good cop and spell it out for him. I've long since given up expecting HiLo to like me or respect my views so I have nothing to lose. But HiLo does seem to respect Drmies so maybe out of that respect he may behave better. In the worst case, a further, longer block is only a button away and I'll happily press it. We don't need to wait for HiLo's acceptance of that - it just is the case. In the best case, we retain an able editor with a voice that is very often productive and represents a viewpoint away from the US-Euro axis which is good to have. I will close this part of the discussion in about 12 hours if there are no further contributions; if anyone argues against me closing it with the status quo, I'll leave it open. Kim Dent-Brown 23:18, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: Interaction ban between HiLo48 and Skyring (Pete)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Note: This discussion was originally started inline, but I have split it into its own subsection for readability. — Mr. Stradivarius 03:56, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Propose interaction ban between HiLo48 and Skyring (Pete). This has become fricking ridiculous. Pete, you need to stop talking to and/or about HiLo anywhere on this project. Your comments througout this thread - and of course the dumb idea of posting on HiLo's talkpage - have merely poured oodles of gasoline on the situation, where the main goal is to prevent fires. As you seem to fail to recognize this, and indeed show so damned little "remorse" yourself, then it's time to formalize this with an WP:IB. Your hypocricy is sickening ES&L 11:20, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Be fair. Shouldn't that cut both ways? Am I not allowed to respond to some of the bile being poured in my direction? --Pete (talk) 14:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support Don't poke bears, it never ends well. Wee Curry Monster talk 11:27, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you! Sound advice from the voice of experience. --Pete (talk) 14:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Of course it was HiLo's "one and only post here"; he was blocked within hours of the thread being opened. Despite that (and with the agreement of the blocking admin to gauge consensus here with regard to length) I don't think anybody has suggested that the block shouldn't have been applied. Nobody is "turning a blind eye", except when it comes to Collingwood26. Your attempt (Pete) to try and focus this thread on an already blocked user and claim no diffs have been presented with regard to Collingwood26 (when HiLo couldn't and I already had in the comment immediately above yours) borders on disruptive. Stalwart111 11:40, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• It was his one and only post, not because he was blocked just three hours and eight minutes later and he didn't have time to craft his usual careful response, but because he chose not to participate further. He said so in the diff I provided. Which you appear not to have read.
• Several participants in this discussion have suggested a block was inappropriate. Including myself.
• My comment above was aimed at responding to the post from Mr. Stradivarius about consensus. I think that consensus-forming activity requires that all participants in a discussion have the opportunity to contribute.
• I didn't say anything about Collingwood26, let alone claim no diffs had been presented. My comments were more general. This is the usual practice. A tirade against other editors without presenting any specific diffs. Which makes the job of admins difficult if no evidence is ever actually presented.

Wouldn't it be nice if we all stepped back, read the whole discussion, actually read what others wrote, took our time, and responded thoughtfully and accurately? Jumping in, all guns blazing, unaware of the facts, is not generally regarded as a model for calm and reasoned discourse. --Pete (talk) 14:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

"When asked to provide diffs for the behaviour he finds so offensive, nothing emerges" - knowing full well he was/is prevented from doing so here and only lines after I had done so. He is effectively prevented from interacting with anyone right now, and yet somehow your "relationship" continues to be disruptive. What does that tell you about your contributions? Stalwart111 22:19, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

My comments, as noted, were more general than the present instance. The pattern of behaviour has persisted for years, rather than a couple of hours. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 10:11, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

As has yours, it would seem, and there are now eight people (and counting) telling you as much. Probably time to drop that stick. Leave all this well alone, go and find something more productive to do (which we both know you are capable of doing) and allow participants here to move on to a discussion about how best to deal with Collingwood. Stalwart111 07:04, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

You may care to check exactly who those eight people are. You may get a surprise. Funny, isn't it, how nobody is able to provide any diffs of disruptive or offensive behaviour on my part? You talk of my pattern of behaviour, but you haven't checked to see, have you? Nor has anybody else. Not that I'm harping on about it, of course. :) --Pete (talk) 08:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• SupportStrong Support per Q.E.D. right here. Begoon  15:09, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Non-sequitur, I think you mean. Look, right up the top of this page, see where it says, Please include diffs to help us find the problem you are reporting. What do you think that means? We just make stuff up? Or we use the power of the wiki to present, you know, actual facts? --Pete (talk) 18:50, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying the situation. I amended my !vote in the light of your reply. Cheers. Begoon  05:32, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

And thank you for your response. What I'm hoping for by continuing a dialogue is to discover whether I'm talking to someone who has put some thought into their !vote, or whether they have just made a superficial response - whatever passes over the the surface of their discursive mind - without truly understanding the situation. I'm looking for thought and thoughtfulness here, rather than a quick emotional rumble. --Pete (talk) 20:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support - so long as it applies to both parties equally and fairly. --Pete (talk) 15:48, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Snarky responses to everyone who is !voting? Just making it worse...and of course it was applying to both parties. Ridiculous to suggest otherwise. ES&L 20:22, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you see my contributions as "snarky" - certainly not my intention to be offensive. My comments are aimed at eliciting facts and diffs, rather than more emotional responses. If I have said anything a reasonable person might regard as offensive, for instance, then that would certainly be something to bring forward here. I've already mentioned the lack of diffs. For example, if I should ask for a review of any outcome, I'm sure that we'd be looking for useful evidence rather than general comments. Of course, editors are entitled to be as vague as they like in their !votes, it's a personal choice, but good satisfactory wikiprocess would be more factual and less emotional, surely? --Pete (talk) 10:11, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Originally I thought that the final warning that Kim Dent-Brown left on Pete's talk page might be sufficient, but Pete's subsequent posts here have led me to believe that this is necessary. — Mr. Stradivarius 04:15, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Again, given the torrent of unsubstantiated abuse aimed at me - on a continuing basis, I note - I ask what would a reasonable person do? Make a polite request for details, as per the directions at the top of this very page, perhaps? --Pete (talk) 10:11, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support as a very minimal sanction for behaviour that is essentially blockable. Pete, you've been clearly and categorically told to stay of Hilo's talk page; and you've failed to do so. You've been incredibly snarky in this thread, and generally disruptive in other areas, by jumping on any perceived misdemeanour by HiLo. Enough is enough, and trying to Wikilawyer your way out of this with statements like "Nothing in this world lasts forever" and "Noted, but I did not take that to mean in perpetuity" is also disgraceful. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:55, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

"behaviour that is essentially blockable". You astonish me. Care to give an example? A diff, so that I may understand and mend my ways? Yes, I posted on the talk page of HWMNBN some days ago. It was not my understanding that admins issued dooms in perpetuity, I was responding to comments aimed directly at me, but in any case, Kim Dent-Brown has issued a stern warning, I've acknowledged it (and by your above quoting from my acknowledgement, I see that you have read and apparently understood this), I've observed it and that would seem to be an end of it. If I'm told to stay off YKW's talk page and I do precisely that, a reasonable person would take that as acceptable behaviour. But you state that it is blockable, and my attempts to find out why are seen as snarky. Well, goodness me! Excuse my bewilderment. --Pete (talk) 15:31, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support I have seen Pete turn up at various threads about Hilo, and his presence has invariably been unhelpful and disruptive - as is his presence on his Hilo's talk page, which he apparently will not voluntarily avoid despite being asked to. Neljack (talk) 05:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

This space reserved for Skyring's next badgering of !voters, which is merely turning the screw tighter ES&L 09:50, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. Pete, in your own interest, shut the heck up. There is no way posting anything further is going to do anything other than damage your interests. You are making HiLo's point for him (as he has done for other people in his turn). Kim Dent-Brown 20:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

User:Lobsterthermidor

I'm very much anti-drama and try hard to be a self-sufficient admin, but I've finally run out of steam in my interactions with Lobsterthermidor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Would someone have a look before I do something I'll later regret, please?

The problem involves his ownership of articles, original research, incivility, bullying etc. My attempts to explain these problems to him over the last year or so have resulted in him claiming that I'm obsessively stalking him. My belief, based on extensive examination of his edits, is that despite the superficial appearance of reliability exhibited by his work it is riddled with errors which he fails to acknowledge. This, coupled with his bullying behaviour means that he has crossed the line into disruptive editing, is not an asset to the project, and should be persuaded to leave permanently (he's already "retired" twice). I believed for a long time that he had the potential to be a valuable member of the team, which is why I've been so patient with him. But he's stopped listening to me so I've taken it as far as I can on my own.

Our latest exchange on his talk page is relevant as are many earlier messages on that page and my previous AN/I report. I'll happily provide any further information required if anyone is willing to help. Thanks in anticipation. —SMALLJIM  15:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

This user has been engaging in edit-warring with me for at least 2 years. He attacks on many and varied fronts, OR is just one of his weapons in his continuing war. He is an interested editor in the sphere of Devon articles, in which sphere the warring generally takes place. His modus operandi is generally to spark pedantic debates about immaterial statements where I have "said it my own way" as required by WP, rather than parrotted the author's every word. Thus he argues ad infinitum about which parish a manor is in, even though I give him a totally unambiguous source, and calls my common sense reading of the source "OR". He has become increasingly obsessive about waging this edit-war (if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a Special:Duck), and broke his 2 month wiki-break specifically to rewrite, or attempt to rewrite 3 of my brand new articles submitted. That occupied almost all his time for 2 days, and counting. I feel like the victim of an obsessive. These total rewrites, in the middle of an edit-war were actions of further and continued edit warring, and amounted to effective reversion of my text, without any discussion beforehand on talk. That was bound to be inflammatory, and as an admin he should know that and be above it. He then tried to slap an official warning on me (mixing his role of admin with interseted editor) when I reverted his work for the reason of drastic editing with no discussion on talk. See Dunsland. He continues to give me his master-class of how to write for WP, which even involves him chasing me onto the talk page of persons in totally unrelated areas and suggesting I use more paragraphs in my talk page submissions.

He popped up when one of my new articles, nothing to do with Devon, was nominated for deletion due to copyright infringement, see List of licences to crenellate and fought tooth and nail to suppress it. That seems to me to be evidence of playing the man not the ball. He used every argument in the book, but lost. He clearly is in the long-term habit of following my contributions log and, it feels to me, of extirpating all trace of me and my contributions from WP. He has recently taken arbitrarily to deleting images contributed by me, even though well-sourced (see Thomas de Berkeley, 5th Baron Berkeley just because of my involvement. That was vandalism, it cannot be described as anything else. I have recently made positive suggestions to him as to how to end the edit-war, I don't know whether he will take the chance or persist in his actions. My talk page history, going back two years or more, provides evidence of the overwhelming mumber of critical messages I get from this editor. I should add I have never knowingly edited a single one of his own contributed articles, the traffic is all one way. A very fresh example of his modus operandi in Dunsland: Source Lauder wrote that the estate had been occupied continuously by the same family since 1066 to 1947 (paraphrase). I wrote in the article: "It is remarkable for having been occupied by the same family since 1066 to 1947". He accused me of breaking WP rules by not parroting the source. this is the sort of argument I am continually dragged into. If Lauder remarks on the fact in her article, it's remarkable. It's very tiresome. There are thousand of articles on WP with no sources at all. Mine generally have several dozen. But it's never enough for this person obsessed with "teaching me a lesson" and being "right", "better", "more in touch with the sources", and just generally a superior human being to myself. I ask him to step back and end the edit-warring now.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 17:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC)) Hot off the press: a classic example of his edit-warring modus operandi, see Talk:John Arscott (1613-1675) 29 Oct. You can still sniff in the air the gunpowder of his last salvo. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 18:16, 31 October 2013 (UTC))

Anyone looking at this? I'll happily justify/correct any of those self-selected minor issues if anyone considers it would be helpful. The main points that are damaging Misplaced Pages remain un-addressed. —SMALLJIM  20:39, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not an admin, sorry, and I don't know either of you, but I saw your appeal at the beginning and have taken a look. A few things seem rather obvious to me:

@Smalljim: it seems perfectly clear from your recent contributions that you are following LT around. I'm not accusing you of hounding, because WP:HOUND says "with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor", and I don't think you have that aim. But you are having that effect, and it's rather easy to see why when you post things like this, which really reads as quite personally hostile, after unilaterally splitting off that content with zero discussion. You don't have the right to appoint yourself as someone's mentor against their will. Other editors exist, and you don't have to manage him single-handedly. And bringing this frustrated but good-faith editor to ANI after that isn't good.

@Lobsterthermidor: now that the above has been said, I think you need to cool it too, and to learn what can be learned from the edits that have frustrated you. Talk page section headers like "Reverted vexatious excessively pedantic revert" really raise the temperature. Above, you have accused SJ of vandalism -- I don't agree with the removal of those images without discussion either, but that comment is too confrontational. Some of the edits that SJ has made to your work are very good, and you could benefit from them. Please take more care over fact checking (between Woodbury and Newton Abbot there is Exeter), and if you're ever accused of OR, the right refutation is to add citations.

Good luck, both of you. --Stfg (talk) 14:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Stfg, much appreciated. Just a few points from my side: Yes, I've been watching Lt's contributions for some time. I feel a responsibility to do so because no-one else is correcting his errors, which is understandable considering the extremely specialised topics. The message at Talk:Manor of Bratton Fleming is one of a series of similar ones that I started posting after Lt had retired (see User:Smalljim/Pages I have tagged with OR). However, we'd already agreed that the split of extensive Manor details from articles about villages was acceptable (see here) – this was one I'd missed earlier. I must point out too that Lt didn't add 'Newton Abbot' to that article, it had been there for ages.

It would be great if some other editors looked at the content that Lt has added, but I'm pretty sure no-one does, not in the depth needed to check the content. And I've found so many errors in the small amount of his work that I've checked, that despite knowing that he's working in good faith, we cannot accept, without checking, what he adds. That's too big a burden for WP to support, so, I (reluctantly) believe that he needs to be persuaded to publish his research elsewhere.  —SMALLJIM  15:18, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh and regarding my removal of images from Thomas de Berkeley, 5th Baron Berkeley, here (back in July, not "recently" as Lt claims), if you look at the footnote to the top image, Lt corrected the source he used (now found online here) which said he was the 4th Lord Berkeley. Well, despite this coming from a check of Monumental brasses of Gloucestershire where another cited source also says 4th and gives his date of death as 1392, I must admit that was not one of my best edits - a talk page query would have been better; but remember this was selected by Lt from dozens of corrections I've raised. He says nothing about these , (see Talk around the collapse box of 9 July), , (where he's accepted several of my queries), for instance.  —SMALLJIM  17:50, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Your edit-box comment on removing the well-sourced image of Baron Berkeley was "Rm graphics - appears to be OR that they are of this person". Perhaps next time don't guess. I only came across your edit when working on Baron Lisle, a related topic, and was surprised to find the image of the brass (which I travelled over 200 miles to photograph at great time, expense and some danger - climbing up and leaning off a 6 foot ladder - in order to donate under free licence to WP) casually deleted. Not one of your best edits, true. I accept your apology.

Let's understand what you seem to be asking support for here: to have me kicked off WP for saying "Arscott, now South Arscott Farm" instead of "Arscott, which Hoskins says is now called South Arscott" and similar. Hardly a disciplinary matter surely? Are you serious? I could explain why I added "Farm" (OK, because it's a farmhouse not a village or town like South Tawton, South Molton or a hundred others in Devon, which it would sound like to a non-Devon, even non-UK, reader: in Devon farms are often, if not generally, known by just the name, i.e. "Arscott", without the word "Farm" added, as is usual elsewhere), but life is too short. Blenheim Palace is generally known as "Blenheim". I never thought someone would nit-pick about that immaterial use of editorial judgement, but this person does just that, all the time. I'm not a copy-typist, and WP does not demand that, despite what Smalljim repeatedly tells me.

Thanks Stfg for the above "You don't have the right to appoint yourself as someone's mentor against their will. Other editors exist, and you don't have to manage him single-handedly". But he did recently inform me: "If your work was of an acceptable standard, I wouldn't have to keep correcting it: as an admin I feel a particularly strong responsibility to do this, since it's unlikely that any other active Wikipedian is in a position to be able to do so". From Smalljim Talk:Dunsland, 28 Oct. How smug: Only I can save the world! Only I read Devon history books like Hoskins (paperback available at Waterstones, sell like hotcakes I'm told). The classic attitude of someone who is becoming delusional. Remember he cut short his 2 month holiday just to spend two solid days, and counting, in heroically manning the barricades against the "threat to the project" of three of my brand-new articles. Where is the threat? Smalljim you are no William Pitt defending England from a French invasion. I think you are actually defending your self-appointed role as acting (and rather bossy) head of the Devon articles user group, which I have opted not to joined. How do I opt out of this person's smug master-classes? (Lobsterthermidor is having log-in issues) (212.104.155.43 (talk) 21:05, 1 November 2013 (UTC))

I'm sad that you've chosen to use what I said to him as a weapon against him, instead using what I said to you as a way to help you. You really need to avoid such inflammatory language. And I'm sorry that my attempt to pour oil on the water has instead added fuel to the fire. I don't know what you guys think ought to happen or how you plan to make it happen, but I wish you both luck. --Stfg (talk) 22:24, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think his post provides good evidence for why he should not be editing WP. Apart from the contempt with which he treats anyone who disagrees with him (his treatment of User:CaroleHenson was heading the same way before he retired for the second time ), he persistently ignores the main problems and tries to deflect attention into minor issues. The two issues I identified at John Arscott (1613-1675) are minor points in themselves which anyone else would either just let go or easily refute, but he's kept harping on about them without answering them. Do have a look at Talk:John Arscott (1613-1675), someone and please tell me if I'm wrong. Yes, I know how trivial this example on its own is – the problem arises because this misinterpretation of sources, this failure to WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE, happens over and over again in his contributions. And that's one element of his behaviour that neatly matches those listed at WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. What I feel now is the same as when CaroleHenson and I posted on his Talk page when he first retired, back in June.  —SMALLJIM  23:04, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Your examples are indeed trivial. The "South Arscott" vs. "South Arscott Farm" one I've answered above, I hope. Not a misinterpretation of the source, but a clarification of the source, it's a farmhouse for pity's sake with a thatched roof and the house is in Ashwater parish, just within the boundary. Look at the OS map. I explained Hoskins's inaccuracy in a note. Hoskins sometimes gets things wrong, and I'm not going to parrot something I know is wrong. WP says I have to give a line ref for anything with "more than a 50% chance of being challenged". I did not imagine anyone would demand a source for that minor issue. You should have added a cn note, not reverted.

As for the Arscott family of Tetcott, they "epitomise all the ancient Devonshire squires" (p.493) for one reason, which would be familiar to someone who has understood Hoskins' point intelligently not mechanically. See p.79: "It was a matter of some three centuries or so; ten or twelve generations for the ancient freeholder to establish himself in the ranks of the squirearchy - Acland, Furse, Monk, Edgcumbe, Arscott, a whole host of them succeeded - and marriage was the greatest single cause of their advancement". What the Arscott family epitomised, the Tetcott branch no more than the Dunsland one, both were grand mansions on estates only a few miles apart, and near Arscott itself, was this particularly Devonian phenomenon of the rise from the humble mediaeval freeholder into the county gentry over time, which Hoskins describes. He takes the reader forward to page 493 with that point having been grasped. Unlike the Norman or French warrior class in Devon who were already members of foreign nobilities or gained nobility or gentry through martial deeds, the Fortescues, Bourchiers, Giffards, Dinhams etc. I understood Hoskins to mean this, a return to an earlier theme of his in the book, you thought he was talking literally about "wind-flung rooks on December afternoons" and "branch strewn parks"(p.493). I would guess that on a December afternoon there were as many noisy rooks at Dunsland as at Tetcott, and lots of branches on the grass at both places. That is to miss the real point he was making. The Arscotts were a family which all originated as humble freeholders at Arscott, now a thatched farmhouse. They rose to the gentry by this process so notable in Devon. That's what they epitomise. I think my interpretation of Hoskins's text is the better one than yours - yes you got the words right, but the true import and significance of Hoskins's insight escaped you. Perhaps it might have been better had I quoted as a ref p.79 instead, but passages like this one do need intelligent reading and interpretation. The Rothschilds in all their European branches epitomise something too, a certain forward progress, one successful branch of the family no more than another. It's similar with the Arscotts. I think that's what Hoskins was saying. Some passages in sources are black and white, i.e. "John Smith died in 1501", but others are not, like this one. Not a failure to WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE, just a proper non-mechanical understanding of this unusually florid passage in this book. Lobsterthermidor (212.104.155.43 (talk) 02:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC))

Thanks for replying at last, though to have done so where these questions were asked would have been far better – people trying to follow this (if anyone has got this far) don't need to plough through such detail. Both explanations go far beyond what the sources say, of course, and your failure to understand this shows once more that you still don't get WP:OR, despite assertions to the contrary . Or maybe it's an inability to say "sorry, I was wrong". Either way you need to publish your research somewhere else, where such constraints don't apply.  —SMALLJIM  08:52, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I think my above "Perhaps it might have been better had I quoted as a ref p.79 instead" comes pretty close to saying "sorry, I was wrong". Please take it as such. --Lobsterthermidor (talk) (212.104.155.43 (talk) 11:19, 2 November 2013 (UTC))

One other point that needs to be raised: According to WP:Administrators, "Administrators should not use their tools to advantage, or in a content dispute (or article) where they are a party (or significant editor), or where a significant conflict of interest is likely to exist." Did you think it was wise for you to embark on a (very) BOLD edit to my new text at Dunsland, actually a series of rapidly consecutive edits which could not easily be unpicked, all amounting to a BOLD? It was so BOLD my text and format were virtually obliterated. I suspect you knew I would revert it as allowed under BOLD rules for discussion on talk. That's exactly what I did, but I had to revert as a block, as my main contention was not the additions, always welcome, but the complete change from the format I generally use for this type of manorial history article, as you know. Instead of treating my revert as a chance to discuss on talk you slapped an admin's warning for disruptive editing on my talk page and stated "reverting is not an option". Effectively you attempted to use your authority as an admin to impose your format and text on my contribution, and to set it in concrete. And then you called me disruptive for objecting. You are a significant editor in this sphere who has been engaging in an edit war with me for at least two years. Comments please. Lobsterthermidor. (212.104.155.43 (talk) 02:39, 2 November 2013 (UTC))

No. I refuse to get involved in further side issues, unless anyone else asks me to explain my actions. This is about you – I suggested five times that you could raise a DR process about me (three at Talk:Dunsland alone), but you didn't. I'll just say that I've very carefully avoided using any admin tools in my interactions with you. Templated warnings are not only for admin use, as most editors here know (another of your failures to properly interpret our rules), and I carefully weighed the pros and cons before issuing it. Oh and since you've repeated it so many times now, please provide evidence that I've been edit warring with you for "at least two years".  —SMALLJIM  08:52, 2 November 2013 (UTC) (I won't be here for the next 12 hours or so.)

Not a side issue. My revert of your BOLD to Dunsland (which obliterated in a consecutive series of inextricable edits my format and much of my content, including the very important Domesday Book section) was the issue which sparked this whole matter of your bringing me to this ANI. It was what you called "disruptive editing" - see your first post at the top of this section. (My wording explaining my action on the talk page may have been somewhat intemperate I now admit). You attempted to use your authority as admin to prevent me following the 3RR cycle. Slapping templates on editors who revert BOLDs for good reason is not part of the 3RR process. Did you or did you not follow up your warning template on my talk page with your own words: "Reverting Dunsland again is not an option". That sounds to me like someone wearing his admin's hat to kill the 3RR process. --Lobsterthermidor (talk) (212.104.155.43 (talk) 11:19, 2 November 2013 (UTC))

As for all the OR accusations you have made about my text stating that Arscott was now a farmhouse, you should instead just have requested a source. I give it to you now: , the authoritative listed buildings text for: "Arscott Farmhouse and Barns Adjoining at West and East, Ashwater, Devon EX21 5DL. Date Listed: 21 January 1986 English Heritage Building ID: 90703". I await your apology, perhaps we could then move on under more amicable terms and you could henceforth be persuaded to assume good faith in regard to my future work on WP. Perhaps you could also remove some of the dozens of defamatory banners you have posted to many of my articles, referred to above by Stfg. It has the effect of blackening my name in the WP community, which isn't nice.Lobsterthermidor (talk) (212.104.155.43 (talk) 12:40, 2 November 2013 (UTC))

Well, I must admit that from the map that place looks more like somewhere that would have originated in the time of Henry III than the South Arscott I found on the A388. But what should I apologise for exactly – for listening to you and wasting my time looking for a place called "South Arscott Farm" that doesn't exist? And must I believe that had I just added a {{cn}}, you'd have quietly corrected it instead of ranting on about "immaterial pedantry"? And if you knew of this britishlistedbuildings reference before, why did you not simply add it at the time? And why did you revert my edit, which although incomplete was at least properly referenced, to reinsert wrong info that there's a South Arscott Farm in Ashwater parish? And finally I should now take it that your production of this one reference more or less invalidates all the questions that I've raised or might raise about your work? Wow!

Moreover, let's get the facts straight in your above post: I changed one sentence and a reference - I didn't make lots of OR accusations about this as you claim; and your article text doesn't state that "Arscott now a farmhouse", it says "(today South Arscott Farm)". Further, although this looks like the right place, there's still no reference that definitively links it with Hoskins' South Arscott where the family originated, so there's still an element of OR here, though this time it's not an unreasonable inference. Maybe you have another undisclosed reference that fills that gap (I haven't checked this time).

Anyway, that's a great job you've done in distracting me into minor matters again. It's the last time here...  —SMALLJIM  00:41, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Nobody forced you to look "for a place called "South Arscott Farm" that doesn't exist"(sic). You took it upon yourself to amend the text submitted by me regarding Arscott, when you might have been better either taking my text as "good faith" or by asking for a source or by looking for your own sources before launching into your edit. Your action was typical of your habit over the last 2 years of following me around WP and changing minutiae in my text as part of your on-going "master-class" directed at me, to purport I'm breaking WP rules. I have to defend myself. South Arscott Farmhouse does exist. I've given you 2 sources now, Hoskins (1954) p.411, under the heading "Holsworthy" (sic): "Arscott (now called South Arscott) was the original home of the Arscotts..."; and the listed buildings text "Arscott Farmhouse and Barns Adjoining at West and East, Ashwater, Devon EX21 5DL". You need to use sources intelligently, that's not the same as OR or SYNTH. You now seem to be retreating from your original position, and now term my text "an element of OR here, though this time it's not an unreasonable inference". I make reasonable inferences elsewhere, which you constantly condemn as OR. It's OR infringements you've been accusing me of in the past, so this is something I'm going to respond to, its not "distracting (you) into minor matters again".

It is the place you have identified 2 miles to the east of the A388 road, situated 3 miles SE of Holsworthy and 3 1/2 miles due north of the village of Ashwater, in which parish it is situated. (A-Z Road Atlas, & Google Maps, esp the one linked from the listed buildings web-site). I trust the following will end this thread as you wish.

Speaking off-main-space I'll elaborate: Hoskins called it "South" Arscott because sometime before 1954 another house was built on the farmland north of the old house. Look at the Google satelite map. That place now operates as a Llama/Alpaca? Farm visitor attraction. Hence for the sake of the postman and visitors, "South Arscott" (the old one) and "North Arscott" (the new one) were adopted as names. This is extremely common with Devon farms, when the farmer gets short of cash he converts a barn or builds another house on his land and sells it. Hence differentiating names are needed for practical purposes. As an experienced editor on Devon matters you might have known that. The farmer generally often however retains the main name for reasons of pride, and will often continue to give his address as "Arscott". It is confusing. I know of one case where a farmer has built a bungalow for himself, sold the adjacent grand "barton" (Devon manor house used as a farm) to someone else and then re-named the bungalow "The Barton". I dare say the Alpaca operation markets itself as "Arscott farm Alpacas". You need to have a certain basic WP:COMPETENCE in the subject area to write well, and some of that I do have in this geographic area. Not OR. In fact this operation repeated many times is how hamlets grow into being. Who knows, one day Arscott may be a big city. Watch out for a paragraph on this historic estate in page Ashwater some time soon. End of off-mainspace talk.Lobsterthermidor (talk) (212.104.155.43 (talk) 13:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC))

Enough of this bickering, more input requested

Well that's been useful, but it's gone far enough. We both know where we stand and there's plenty of evidence here now for some helpful advice from other admins to be given (which is why I posted here in the first place). Would someone please do that now and if it involves censure of me too, so be it. But please – no accusations of stalking etc unless Lt is found to be completely in the clear. I repeat what I said elsewhere: if I hadn't spent the time to look into his work, no-one else would have, and the problems would continue. I can understand why Lt is cross with me, but I don't think that providing enough evidence to show disruptive editing can ever be a friendly process.  —SMALLJIM  01:00, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

"Enough bickering"? You don't come to ANI enough ... this is the home of endless bickering, and attempts to steer the conversation back on-track are usually met with loud cries. By the way, you're right, there's plenty of evidence...for an WP:RFC/U :-) ES&L 11:38, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

There is no evidence for a WP:RFC/U, the basic requirements have not been met, please look at the guideline. WP is not the home of "endless bickering", "endless bickering" is destructive to WP. Your input is not helpful or constructive.

I think the mature thing to do now is indeed to stop this to and fro and to get on with building WP. If I have made any minor errors in any of the articles I have submitted, I apologise and I will try to do better. I think my work is constantly improving. But I'm never going to be the perfect WP editor, if such is even possible. I'm not going to provide line refs for every word, every fact or sentence I contribute where I consider, under WP guidelines, there is less than a 50% chance of one being asked for (anyone's still free to ask, and I will provide such of course). I'm not going to parrot sources, but "say it my own way", as WP allows and often requires. And I'm going to say it my own way in an intelligent manner, not as a robotic and mechanical rendering. As for my complaint regarding Smalljim's behaviour I do not wish to make an official complaint on the DR board, as he has urged me to do, I'm not a fan of litigation. The words Wikihounding and stalking may have been mentioned above, not by me, I can't guess at what burning motive drives him with such force and vigour to break his 2 month holiday to recommence chasing me all over WP, but I'd like to notify him here on this public forum that his actions are perceived by me as distressing, threatening and intimidating, which makes editing Misplaced Pages unpleasant for me, undermines me and discourages me from editing entirely. User:Lobsterthermidor User talk:Lobsterthermidor(212.104.155.43 (talk) 14:09, 3 November 2013 (UTC))

Thanks for making me smile, Eats - at least your touch of humour wasn't wasted on me. But Lt has highlighted my plight here, which I haven't previously spelled out to avoid his inevitable allegations of canvassing (so thanks, Lt for allowing me to loosen my tactful British reserve). Yes, I need another editor to help certify an RFC/U – will anyone take this on? I can make a prediction though: he'll apologise profusely, claim complete understanding of our rules, scrupulous adherence to them in the future, probably disappear for a while, then return substantially unchanged. Like last time.

Please, Lobsterthermidor, accept the inevitable. Leave now permanently and save us all, yourself included, a great deal of hassle. I'm really sorry that I upset you: I've tried hard to help you understand how WP works, but it's evident that it's not the right place for you. You should go and publish your research elsewhere: it's too clever, contains too much of your own knowledge and opinion (and, I have to add, errors), for a mere encyclopedia.

I need another editor to help certify an RFC/U. Thanks,  —SMALLJIM  18:46, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

"My work's too clever". Right. If I'm nowhere near expert in the topics I write on, which I'm not, I'm just a keen amateur who consults a wide range of sources, I take it Smalljim will be calling for a policy of banning all history professors and phd's from contributing to WP history articles. "Sorry sir, you're a doctor, you're too clever to contribute to WP on medicine! You there Mr Hawkins! we don't want any of your sort tarting up our astro-physics articles!" That's actually what a lot of people involved in the WP project want to encourage, a dream scenario for many, more expert involvement and input. What a ridiculous accusation! "Too clever for Misplaced Pages", sorry only room for dunces here, we don't really aspire to excellence. Not only have you just insulted your own intelligence but also the intelligence of every wikipedia contributor.

There's not a snowball in hell's chance of me allowing you to bully me off WP again. Full stop. I think you should now consider whether your desperate appeals for outside help, the above is I think your third, constitute evidence of a lack of support for your position.User:Lobsterthermidor User talk:Lobsterthermidor((212.104.155.43 (talk) 10:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC))

I dunno, the tone of pretty much every comment you've made not only here, but in a random selection of your contributions has me rather convinced that you believe it's your way or the highway, even when shown that your way is incorrect. I don't care if Mr Hawking edited astrophysics stuff...he's not allowed to act like a) a jerk, or b) like he owns the place ES&L 11:56, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

(ec) And furthermore, if Lt actually read what I wrote (it's a similar process to carefully reading and understanding a source document, actually) I didn't say anything about anyone's intelligence, I said his research is too clever for WP. He needs to correct his error in interpretation himself this time, since I'm not allowed to edit his comments :)  —SMALLJIM  12:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

My research (no quote marks required) before writing my article on the history of the Devon manor Dunsland (the location of what Smalljim called my disruptive editing) was nothing special. I informed myself about the subject, which involved finding sources, (4 or 5 I think, plus a map and a web-site, all permitted by WP), reading them, comparing them, assessing them. Then this research completed I engaged my brain to use the sources intelligently and wrote the article, often "saying it my own way", and provided several line refs where in my opinion there was more than a 50% chance of a source being requested, per the WP guideline. I made sure I was if anything over-profusive with line refs, often giving 2 in a single short sentence. The text was very well populated with line refs. I used two very standard works covering the history of Devon: Hoskins, still in print (reprinted twice in 1954, and again in 1959) and available today as a paperback in Waterstones stores in large Devon towns, which is the entry level overview book for anyone embarking on a study of Devon history. I also used as a source Vivian's Heraldic Visitations of Devon (1895), a standard work of a more detailed nature, a secondary, reliable, published work, comprising the exhaustive annotated research, presented in pedigree format, of Lt-Col Vivian into the descents of the armigerous families of Devon, from which pool of people were generally selected local government officials. Vivian is relied on heavily by very many Devon historians, and is available in paperback photo-reprints from the USA at very reasonable cost, and is available in original bound copy in the larger Devon free public libraries and also on micro fiche. I also relied heavily on Rosemary Lauder's "Vanished Houses of North Devon", a highly accessible but still authoritative paperback book which has proved extremely popular with the Devon book-buying public and has been issued in a 2nd edition. It is available, often in several copies, in Devon's public libraries. I also used Thorn's 2 volume paperback work on the Devonshire Domesday Book, again a standard work, perhaps requiring some more effort from the reader, but possibly the clearest and most reliable exposition of the subject available, clearly set out with notes. And I used the 1811 edition, with 1810 additions, to Tristram Risdon's ever popular and well known 17th.c work "Survey of Devon", a standard work still forming the essential basis of many Devon historical articles and works. I fail to see how my research based on a handfull of solid well recognised sources, an A-Z Road Map (Geographers' A-Z Map Company Ltd's 7th edition 1994, p.6, West Devon) and a couple of easily accessible websites was "too clever for Misplaced Pages". User:Lobsterthermidor User talk:Lobsterthermidor(212.104.155.43 (talk) 20:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC))

What's all that supposed to explain?  —SMALLJIM  23:56, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

What it says. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 15:09, 5 November 2013 (UTC))

You see that's one of the main problems. You veer from severe incivility to complete misunderstanding. I don't know why you think it's of any benefit here to list, with extensive commentary, all the sources you've used in one article. The problem has never really been about the sources you use, but what you do with them between reading them and using them in articles. I'm certain that the dozens of other interested editors who are avidly following this discussion (joke!) spotted that ages ago.  —SMALLJIM  15:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Between reading a source and writing a WP article comes an important stage: "saying it your own way" (unless quoting). That's actually a requirement of WP. That involves using one's brain. Your editorial style can be, in my experience, overly conservative in the extreme, which actually damages WP articles: in the Dunsland article (the site of your allegation of disruptive editing) you deleted the whole of the highly important paragraph on the Domesday Book, because some doubt existed. That was even though Rosemary Lauder (a source you are very familiar with), possibly the leading authority on this manor, said "The records of ownership are incomplete but it seems certain" (that implies 99%?) "that Dunsland passed in unbroken line down the long centuries from the days of William the Conqueror until it was sold in 1947". She said that for a good reason: the DB tenant was called Cadio (the only example of this extremely rare name amongst the many hundred Devonshire DB tenants (see Thorn, part 2, appendix "index of persons") and Risdon (c.1630) states (p.250, per my line ref) that the manor remained for 8 generations held by the family of Cadiho: "After 8 descents in that family Robert Cadiho, the last who inhabited here, left these lands to Thomazin his daughter wife of John Daubernon". Lauder accepted this (Risdon is a solid source and had access to documents and charters now lost and frequently quotes from them), and even added from her additional (undisclosed) source that "The name crops up intermittently and is last mentioned in 1428 when the male line apparently died out and John Dabernon, husband of Thomasine Cadiho, inherited".

Your response to this tiny bit of uncertainty (1%?): Delete the whole paragraph and make no mention of DB at all, generally the vital starting point for any manorial history. Thorn's note (part 2, 16:16) said of the DB entry Donesland: "probably in Bradford parish" (i.e. the subject of the WP article Dunsland). An intelligent and informed and WP:COMPETENT use of that source would have assessed the probability referred to as 99%, and hence would not have felt it worth mentioning in the text, maybe just possibly in a footnote, but your response: a total deletion of any mention of DB whatsoever. Overly conservative editing which destroys a valuable part of a WP article. And when I tried to use the 3RR process to revert your BOLD, inextricably tied up with a series other BOLDs in the same vein, to discuss your deletion on the talk page, you slapped a warning template on my talk page for "disruptive editing" and then warned me with your admin's hat on that "reverting is not an option".(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:50, 6 November 2013 (UTC))

Sure, miss the point and pick at a tiny spot again: anything to avoid looking at the open sore of your disruption to the project. I won't bother trying to reason with you about the above – your research both on the subject matter and the procedural issues is faulty. Just look at the edit page for Dunsland . Did I leave myself a comment there? If you hadn't been so unreasonable I'd have got round to doing the necessary bit of research days ago and re-added something.

And since you've wailed about it several times now, the full appropriate quote from that level 3 warning (following on from the level 2 issued on 9 July) is "This templated warning sets out the things you can do now. Reverting Dunsland again is not an option." Though you reverted it again anyway...

You've quoted Misplaced Pages:Competence is required twice on this page now, apparently without reading or understanding it. I suggest you should read it carefully and see how it applies to you. Is that too forthright? No, nothing else is getting through.  —SMALLJIM  16:33, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

And if you insist on discussing Dunsland, how about explaining your error regarding William Bickford ? And all the other issues that I sorted out and documented in the edit summaries, such as my removal of 9 level-two headers in only 700-odd words, (a problem discussed here in our very first - and friendly! - interaction in July last year) and the time I spent cleaning up the referencing which despite making some 15,000 edits, you still can't be bothered to do properly. So let's hear your explanation for why it was reasonable to revert all that.

And this is just one article. Look at the annotated version of Manor of Molland where I tagged as much of the original research as I could find (you can imagine how long that took). Or all the edits to Heanton Satchville, Petrockstowe and Annery, Monkleigh where CaroleHenson and I went to great lengths to clean up the articles. Then what about all the other articles that no-one's found the time to even look at yet (list here) - are we to believe that they are by some miracle free from error?  —SMALLJIM  15:03, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Shortage of third party comments

How are we going to resolve this? With no other input for three days, it's just degenerated into bickering between the two of us again. Hey, you can trust me - I'm an admin with an unblemished record: I don't make allegations lightly and without undertaking lots of research and making extensive efforts to fix things myself. Lobsterthermidor is disrupting WP - I reckon that he meets five or more of the eight main indicators in WP:DISRUPTSIGNS and its subsections. Sure, his damage to article space is confined to a subset of obscure and difficult to research topics that hardly anyone reads, but I don't think that's relevant.

This advice that I posted on his talk page back in June (which he has ignored despite being reminded of it) is relevant. Since I raised this report he seems to be treading carefully in what he's adding to articles (from what I've checked at least), but it can't last because he doesn't understand, or doesn't agree with, our policy on original research. He also persistently misunderstands or misrepresents all queries made about his contributions and other questions put to him (not just by me), as shown by his extensive responses above. And he's extremely tendentious and has extreme ownership issues. Apart from the photos he contributes to Commons, he's not a benefit to the project.

Maybe I'm not very good at pursuing this sort of action - we all have our shortcomings - but my concerns warrant more than being ignored, surely.  —SMALLJIM  16:54, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Sea salt

Tarhound21 (talk · contribs), apparently a single purpose account, is involved in an edit war on Sea salt. Several editors, including myself, have attempted to communicate with Tarhound without success, both in edit comments and Talk:Sea salt#Where sea salt comes from. Tarhound has been confronted with a number of arguments against inclusion, including reliable source, off-topic, original research, undue, and failed verification. I've posted a {{edit war}} warning on Tarhound's talk. --Fama Clamosa (talk) 13:36, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Wow, editor looks like a poster child for WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Topic ban? --cyclopia 13:57, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest a short block for edit warring first with a stern warning. If that doesn't get their attention ... then more drastic measures. Vsmith (talk) 14:39, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Vsmith and Fama Clamosa have been reverting my edits. I have reached out to both of them on the talk page to discuss the edit which is backed by multiple references. This noticeboard discussion seems to have been prompted by Fama Clamosa reverting my edit and not discussing it. I have posted on his talk page in the past asking him to please discuss his objections to my edit and have received no response from him. --Tarhound21 (talk) 14:50, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Tarhound21, the objections are on the talk page, loud and clear, including mine, which you should take as a final warning. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 15:30, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I left a response to you on the talk page Drmies--Tarhound21 (talk) 15:36, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Talk:Sea salt#Where sea salt comes from. clearly shows that Tarhound21 is either incapable of or simply refuses to follow basic Misplaced Pages policies such as WP:V and WP:RS. I suggest a short block followed by an escalating series of blocks if the behavior continues as having the best chance of converting Tarhound21 into a productive editor. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:34, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
  • NE Ent is trying a different tack on the talk page, one with a better chance of success. Tarhound is not fighting over anything right now so I don't see any reason to block. Drmies (talk) 16:45, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
    • Edit war ended two days ago - a block now would be punitive, not preventative. Talk page discussion is (hopefully) now headed back toward the actual article content (thank you NE Ent for the addition of sources on the talk page). Suggest this thread can be closed as "no further action" at this time. Euryalus (talk) 12:15, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I can see no indications that Tarhound221 understands the "last warnings" forwarded to him/her. The last edit from this contributor is less than convincing. I fail to understand how this lack of edits or comments from this contributor is an argument for "no further action". --Fama Clamosa (talk) 18:28, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Because blocks aren't usually punishment for past misdeeds. Tarhound attempted to insert material to the article, and then unsuccessfully edit-warred to keep it there when the consensus was for it to be removed. They could have been blocked at the time for edit-warring, but they weren't and the disruptive conduct has since stopped. What we have left is a content dispute, which is best resolved on the article talk page. There's presently no consensus for including Tarhound's California factoid in the article. If they argue their case and achieve a change of consensus on the talk page, good luck to them. If they don't bother with that and instead resume edit-warring to force its inclusion in the article, that will again be disruptive and action taken. In the interim there's no immediate action required. Euryalus (talk) 21:58, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. We're not going to block because an edit on a user talk page gives you pause. They haven't edited the article and now they know where the talk page is. I suggest someone close this, since there is no admin action required at this moment. Drmies (talk) 17:42, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

User:ProudIrishAspie and Infobox flags

I don't like having to come to this board for any reason, but due to the continued actions of the user listed above, I find myself with no other options. For several months, I've noticed that User:ProudIrishAspie has gone on long tears of adding flags to military history info boxes - generally for biographies, ships, and battles. The problems are that a) I don't think WP:INFOBOXFLAG supports such wholesale use of flags, but more importantly, it doesn't support the use of ahistorical and fantastical flags. For instance, this user has added the Gadsden flag to numerous articles as the flag of the Continental Army; this flag simply was never used in any such capacity. See an example of this here. In another set of instances, s/he has added a template with the Red Ensign to symbolize the Royal Navy during the American Revolutionary War; this is also incorrect, as the Royal Navy was also represented by a White Ensign and a Blue Ensign, and there is no consensus that the Red version ought to represent the Royal Navy as a whole. See an example of this here. Not all of PIA's flag additions are inaccurate, but enough are that a whole lot of reverting will need to take place. Even if accurate, as I expressed on his/her talk, I don't believe they add any more information other than what the words say.

• A look at his/her recent contributions will show you the extent of this user's single-mindedness. I would guesstimate that the user has made over 1,500 infobox flag edits since October 1; in my opinion (based on my knowledge and frequent work in and around American Revolutionary War issues), nearly all of his contributions to 18th century military history articles will be inaccurate. Even if not, he's cluttering up thousands of info boxes.
• I attempted to converse with the user three times, once in May, here, and twice more in the past week, here and here.
• This user has previously been blocked at least once because of this same issue this year; that discussion is at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive797#ProudIrishAspie.
• I understand the user has self-identified as being a person with Aspergers Syndrome; while I would in no way ever denigrate or "pick on" another user because of his disability, I do not believe a disability should allow a user to continue to edit disruptively - and to avoid talking about it. If he thought I was wrong, all he'd have to do is answer my multiple comments.

I am willing to answer any questions or concerns, particularly about the subject matter, which I know is unfamiliar to many. Cdtew (talk) 07:25, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Notice left on the user's talk here. Cdtew (talk) 07:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Cdtew, I was involved in the discussion last time that led to the block, which I fully supported. I have a few questions for you and for the general audience: 1. WP:INFOBOXFLAG seems to support no flags at all in infoboxes in biographies, except for sportspeople in very specific contexts. I know it's customary to have them in military people's infoboxes, but I don't even see that supported. Did I misread? What does MILHIST have to say? 2. Can you identify (for the non-specialist) incorrect flags after your second recent note? 3. Do you (and others) think that the ratio of incorrect vs. correct is high enough to warrant mass rollback? It's a drastic step, but it may be legitimate if there's simply too many incorrect flags.

  I'm going to leave another note for them, a kind of cease and desist note, though I don't anticipate any answer--this is one of the things that make working with the editor so impossible. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 13:55, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

  • I'm struggling to remember the last time I even participated in a thread at ANI but I think it's worth doing so here... I agree that INFOBOXFLAG appears to support not using flags in infoboxes as a general rule. I don't know if this was always the case. When I started editing military articles (primarily biographies) in around 2007, infoboxes always used little flags for nationality/allegiance and service, so I followed suit. Sometime in the past year my attention was drawn to the guideline and I stopped using infobox flags in my new articles and removed them from existing articles that I was improving. The world did not end; several other MilHist editors have adopted a similar practice. I don't think the issue is necessarily bad enough to systematically remove all flags in all articles, but I'd strongly discourage systematically adding flags (whether they're 'correct' or not) to articles -- it's imagecruft at best, misleading at worst, and is one of those WP behaviours that strikes me as plain obsessive. I'd have no issue with a mass rollback in this particular case. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
    • Thank you Ian, for that useful narrative. (I always like stories.) I'm hoping for a bit more input from your fellow editors there. Drmies (talk) 23:35, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
      • The issue of flags in infoboxes in ship articles was recently discussed at WT:SHIPS and it was consensus that for them it was appropriate due to flag variations, ensigns, etc. I think it was discussed awhile back at MILHIST that flags for battles and such in infoboxes were not, but I'm drawing a blank on finding it. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:32, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
        • @Drmies: I think you have most of an answer for (1) - I'm with Ian, but my position is that because a nation/kingdom's name is generally found in the "allegiance" and "service" fields, the flag adds no additional information, and serves to disproportionately emphasize the importance of those sections, which is contrary to INFOBOXFLAG. As for (2), here are some examples of edits that came after my recent warnings:
          1. Theophile Aube - This edit ignores the actual article, inserting the Kingdom of France's flag and the white French Navy flag for an admiral who served only under the Tricolour; PIA relied solely on the apparently incorrect dates in the infobox to add the wrong flag; this is emblematic of this editor's modus operandi: in previous discussions, he's stated that he makes these edits quickly, and acknowledges this leads to mistakes.
          2. Armand Blanquet du Chayla - Here, the editor removed the tricolor and replaced it with the Kingdom of France flag and the French royal naval ensign; this ignores the fact that the article expressly mentions du Chayla's service in the post-revolutionary navy, thus under the tricolor.
          3. Frank Matteson Bostwick - This is another systemic issue; throughout an untold number of articles, the editor has placed the Flag of the United States Navy (which was adopted in 1959) in infoboxes of people who died before 1959. This is ahistorical and should be rolled back.
          4. Samuel Hood - Here's one showing the Royal Navy flag issue.
          5. George Little - Another U.S. Navy flag issue, but this also includes a US flag issue; the reason flags are so messy for this period are that there were multiple U.S. flags between 1775-1800. So, this subject served in the American revolution under the 13-star flag, but also served in the U.S. navy under the 15-star flag (adopted in 1795); PIA has only chosen to put one, which is misleading. Multiple flags, though, will be too much.
          6. Francis Nash - This one is what initially caught my attention; note this was before my warnings. In this one, a U.S. flag issue appears (Nash would have in theory served under the Grand Union Flag of 1775-6, and the 13-star flag of 1777). Most importantly, though, this is an appearance of the Gadsden flag issue, which is now in a multitude of articles about Continental Army soldiers.
        • That's just some, for now. Admittedly, the last one came before my warning, but I wanted to explain to be clear. Cdtew (talk) 03:03, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
• Warning given: I will block if there's any more flag edits pending this discussion. Drmies (talk) 13:58, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
• Such edits were indeed made since the warning was given: here, for instance. That warrants a block, unfortunately. In addition, there is enough doubt here about the editor's competence that I believe mass rollback is warranted, as painful as it is: this probably undoes a large number of valid edits, but taking samples from the last 500 edits confirms that many of these edits are problematic, especially since none of them come with any kind of explanation. Drmies (talk) 04:02, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Instead of an outright block, is there a way to topic ban the user from the narrow point of adding flags, rank insignia, or other images and icons to the infoboxes of military history biographies? Cdtew (talk) 14:06, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Sure--the moment they start talking. Drmies (talk) 14:58, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Sadly, we can open a discussion and even enact it without their discussion input - which appears to be necessary ES&L 15:06, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I happened to see this section heading pop on my watchlist, and bells went off. I can't put my finger on anything specific, but this first edit to the user page stands out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh my. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• I've seen equipment - ships mostly, but occasionally other military vehicles if there has been a long enough history of said vehicles being in operation - use flags to denote operators or allegiances, but in most cases save for specific ships the use of flags in such an article is limited to a section on foreign use and is not in the infobox. In most cases battle or war articles will use flags to denote the allegiance of the military commander in the battle or the faction that fights the battle in the infobox, but again this is only done in a limited capacity, particularly since we get anal about citations and verifiability at MILHIST for articles on such material. Personally I think it a bad idea since most of the flags used have long since fallen out of use by a nation and the addition of flags to infoboxes A) unnecessarily increases the size of an infobox, B) can be said to violate POV by assigning a specific nation or allegiance to the subject of the infobox, and C) adds nothing to the infobox that could not be expanded upon in better, more accurate, and well cited way within the article body itself. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:32, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• @TomStar81: Tom, I agree that there are instances where it appears flag use has become acceptable. I personally don't use flags in biography infoboxes, as I think the flag places undue emphasis on allegiance/branch of service. For instance, I think we can all agree that Elvis Presley shouldn't have a portion of his infobox with flags for allegiance and branch of service, as those were minor factors in his life. My main problem with the flags that PIA is putting in infoboxes is that many of them are erroneous. In the 18th century, flags (aside from naval ensigns and those flown from fortifications) didn't have much consistency or official backing.

To further confuse issues, there are a ton of flags that were adopted in the 19th/20th centuries that people want to impose on 18th century conflicts and figures. Look at the Seven Years' War article as an example, where the infobox will occasionally be littered by things like the Iroquois flag (a 20th century creation), the Russian flag {not made official until the 19th century), or variations of the Austrian/Holy Roman Empire/Austro-Hungarian flag (all either 19th century creations or representative of something larger than "Austria"). Or, on the other hand, look at problems with Civil War articles like 7th Arkansas Field Battery, where, despite constant warning, another editor continues to create articles on Arkansas confederate units featuring the Arkansas flag (for the record: not even thought of in concept until 1912).

So, in short, there's a huge issue with Misplaced Pages's credibility at stake because of something as silly as flag icons, and users like ProudIrishAspie, who appears to be a single-issue (or dual-issue, along with the subject of mass killings) editor undermining that credibility. That being said, Proud made a note on his talk page here, calling Drmies a prick and asking why he'd been blocked. Drmies and I both responded here asking for him to please talk with us, but since then Proud has not attempted further contact. I'm not an admin, but I would ask for a narrow topic ban now that Proud's edits have been rolled back. Cdtew (talk) 15:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• I just removed the flag at 7th Arkansas Field Battery; as I said in my edit summary, today's Arkansas is not that of 1865--at least I hope not. "Prick"--ah well, I've been called worse, and since I blocked the editors and rolled back a bunch of their edits a bit of anger is understandable. Mind you, I did not roll back all their edits: it's like drowning puppies, it gets to one after a while. (And it seems that mass rollback only rolls back one screen--I went 50 edits per screen to try and prevent my browser from crashing with 100 windows open.) A topic ban is fine with me, as I said before, but the unblocking will have to come after an unblock request--or perhaps someone can volunteer as a kind of mentor, at least initially. But since the editor doesn't wish to communicate there's little to go on right now. Please note that I derive no pleasure from rolling back good-faith though erroneous edits, or from imposing this indefinite block. Drmies (talk) 16:58, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

3 more paid editors?

I came across Ireneshih (talk · contribs) when I was responding to a request from User:Antiqueight for the use of a navbar I'd borrowed from another editor. I helped Antiqueight with a speedy deletion and also noticed Ireneshih, whose article creations stood out as promotional (and with hyped and badly sourced content. I deleted Christiane Wyler as obvious copyvio. I did some editing at Murray Newlands and Online Marketing: A User’s Manual and took one of her articles to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Performance Marketing for Professionals. On October 14th BillingTracker was deleted as a G11, then on the 17th Duncan Law Group was deleted as a G11, obviously promotional, all by User:Jimfbleak along with DataNumen Zip Repair as an A7. SEOZEO had been deleted earlier as an A7 by User:RHaworth who deleted Icansia yesterday as G11. User:DGG has taken TeenzFAV and Yliana Yepez to AfD, possibly after I posted something about paid editors to his talk page.

The icing on the cake was a post by an IP to my talk page today at User talk:Dougweller#Deleting the entry for Christiane Wyler about Ireneshih's article on Christiane Wyler, signed by Christiane Wyler and asking why the article was deleted and saying the copyrights for her photos registered on Commons (although it was the text that I was concerned with). This establishes a link between the editor creating the article and the subject of the article.

I am also getting anonymous tips about paid editors, see User talk:Dougweller#Paid page creation of non notable artist and User talk:Dougweller#Paid creation of Carter Hargrave page naming or pointing to Khocon (talk · contribs) (some promotional articles already deleted) and BiH (talk · contribs) (with the accusation that this user has multiple accounts). Again this editor has had several articles deleted, one as a G5 by User:Mark Arsten which I need to investigate. Real life calls and I don't have time to deal with all the deleted articles by these two editors and must go off and notify everyone! Dougweller (talk) 06:35, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

BiH responded at User talk:Dougweller#Advice. Dougweller (talk) 07:39, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I had one or two deleted articles a few months because I used sources I thought are reliable, but they were not and I complied with it, because I was indeed wrong. Since then, I tend to use reliable sources and write and update things I find interesting and useful to Misplaced Pages (I tend to patrol random pages and improve them visually and with references or just tag them for later improvement), and I had no issues with the rules when I was told what can be used for sourcing. As far as "I have multiple accounts", please make sure that your triple check that, and I assure you that I use only one account. --BiH (talk) 08:31, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• I don't know about the paid editing issue but I am very puzzled as to why the edits to Icansia and its talk page seem to have completely disappeared. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 09:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The only explanation I can think of is that they have been oversighted. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

That's very weird indeed. If I remember rightly, when all deleted edits to a page have been the subject of oversighter-only RevDel, we still get the "___ deleted edits" link under the title of the page. Oversighters haven't been using the Oversight extension very much for the last several years, but that's the only reason I would expect the link to disappear entirely without a total removal of all deleted edits project-wide by server admins. Let me ask for the input of an oversighter. Nyttend (talk) 16:33, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Same with Geoffrey Said which was deleted successively by Jimfbleak and myself. I wonder what oversight policy applies. DGG ( talk ) 18:04, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I have now also listed most other of BiH's articles for deletion, by AfD, MfD, and speedy. One or two seem acceptable, and I do not like to delete acceptable articles no matter who writes them. Most paid editors make a few edits to establish their legitimacy. BiH has made a fair number of decent contributions, and a good deal of valid Wikignomeing, along with a fair number of references for political figures worded in a rather promotional manner. The best course to take with editing of this sort is to hunt out the questionable articles for deletion. Not all were in his edit history marked with N; for many, he wrote them in user space, and I found them in his move log. Doing it this way evades NP, (I'm not sure if it evades NPP) but it is nonetheless legitimate, & in fact a technique we have often recommended, especially before the rise of AfC. (Personally, I think the concentration on sockpuppets less important than being careful to remove all the bad articles in the first place, though of course sockpuppet identification does permit speedy deletion of anything subsequently written DGG ( talk ) 18:08, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I can see the deleted revision just fine, and no indication of oversight or revdel. Special:Undelete/Geoffrey Said and Special:Undelete/Icansia both show the deleted revisions. My guess is that this is just a server hiccup. T. Canens (talk) 19:02, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I too can see all the deleted revisions just fine. "Old-school" oversight, which disrupted the history of a page, has been disabled for several years now; current oversighters can see the edits that were oversighted using the old tool (if they know what log to look at) but have no access to use the old tool. All revision-deleted or suppressed edits remain in the page history of the article. I agre with Timotheus Canens that it's likely a server hiccup; I've had problems all day with (a) logging in and (b) navigating via links when I do manage to log in. Risker (talk) 19:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Confirming that there's no entry in the old oversight log for either Icansia or Geoffrey Said. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 20:03, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I couldn't see anything here this morning but it's showing up fine for me now. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:59, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello everyone.

It looks like these temporarily missing deleted revisions is part of a bug which was previously thought to be fixed. The issue was reported originally in this bug. A similar issue to the one above that happened on frwp is documented in this bug. I've added the above information to the bug report so it can be looked in to.

Best regards,

--Dan Garry, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 22:53, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I did not want to comment anything is discussions, but most of my articles have at least possitive opinions from other users regarding notability and reference coverage. Also, one article in my userspace is tagged for deletion? That is MY userspace and my work, which is not in mainspace, so it should not be a subject of your concern.. I am really disappointed by the way you treat me as an editor. --BiH (talk) 11:48, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Even in your userspace, they are not "your" articles. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:04, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Back to the discussion of paid editors, it does appear that User:Ireneshih is a primarily promotional account, and the number of poorly sourced articles created by this user are taking up other editors' time through multiple afd's. I am not familiar with the policy for dealing with probable paid editing, but from Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest, it looks like the next step is a warning about promotion followed by a possible block.Dialectric (talk) 18:49, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

She is denying promotion saying there isn't a line of promotion in the article at AfD, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Advanced DBF Repair (software), whose nominator sees it quite differently. BiH has not denied being a paid editor. And Khocon, like Ireneshih, hasn't responded here. Sure, we can keep an eye on their articles, spend a lot of time making sure they meet our criteria (although forged sources are hard to detect and we know they are used) - but is that really all we can do? I've given Ireneshih an only warning for promotion, I guess the other 2 should have similar warnings? Dougweller (talk) 12:03, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I am working on Misplaced Pages for more than 8 years, because I enjoy it and I never had similar issues. Normally, I deny all accusations from that anonymous user. Sometimes I patrol random articles and tag some of those being without references or having some other issue, so I must have caught someone's attention. Otherwise, he/she would use him/her username instead of IP. That is my opinion. --BiH (talk) 13:07, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Persistent edit warring without discussion

I reported Olde Hornet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) at the edit warring noticeboard three days ago because he or she has been reverting edits made by multiple editors in one article without making any attempt to contribute to the discussion in the article's Talk page or on his or her own Talk page. Although he or she was blocked for 12 hours, he or she has returned from that block to continue edit warring without any attempts to communicate aside from using the same edit summary over and over. I updated the notice at edit warring noticeboard but I'm afraid that it may have been lost there since it's not a new report and there seems to have been some edit warring or frantic editing on that noticeboard. Can someone please look into this and perhaps issue a longer block to this editor or take other appropriate actions (I'm not sure what else would be appropriate since it's one editor edit warring with others without discussion or communication despite our best efforts)? Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 20:54, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I would say looks like a reasonable indef-block considering this user has been warned many times on his/her talk page and has never edited any articles in the talk or User talk namespace. In fact he/she has only edited the Alabama State article ever. Andrevan@ 20:59, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

They have a handful of edits to other articles, but recently it has just been to Alabama State. Indef might be harsh, for someone who has been blocked only once, no? Besides, it seems to be one passage they are most upset about. It'll be easy to tell whether they have removed it. I say give them a week to read the relevant guidelines. --Jprg1966  21:08, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

You're right, I was wrong - they have a few other edits, but not many. Here's the one user talk edit. Andrevan@ 21:12, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I have indef. blocked him. Though I now wonder if indefinitely protecting the page may be a better way to force concussion. Thoughts? John Reaves 22:41, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it's good practice to protect articles when a problem is being caused by a single editor (although if you can truly force concussions on particular editors by doing so I might change my mind!). ElKevbo (talk) 23:42, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Right. Andrevan@ 23:59, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I think there's too much coddling at ANI. Forced concussions should be just the first in a series of increasingly forceful... persuasions. See this discussion of "uses of lobotomy at ANI". EEng (talk) 12:53, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• I've been wondering whether that article was going to be updated anytime soon. The mess at ASU is much more than just a news blimp, and there's a lot more that happened since mid-October. For instance, the governor has called for the search for a news president to be halted, the university won't speak to the governor expect through their lawyer, the newspaper and many others have accused the university of stonewalling, and the current investigation has depleted the state government's fund so there will have to be extra funding to investigate $200 million in recent building activities. Anyway, protection is not necessary at this time since I hope the article will attract some editors (not me--I don't really want to write up this mess since it infuriates me, this alleged (!) waste of taxpayers' money), but I'll keep my eye on it. Drmies (talk) 01:32, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

The account who was already deleted keeps reverting my source.

I was adding a source where Mind Your Manners was played on an episode of Sons of Anarchy. All of sudden it was deleted. BTW the person, who took out my proof, once had his account deleted. The person I'm referring to is Koala15. I was just adding in the truth and some person threatened me to block my account after refusing to let it go. That person thinks I'm childish. No I'm not. A childish person on Misplaced Pages is mainly someone who harrasses people and adds fake sources without proof. S_hannon434 (talk) 8:20, November 4, 2013 (UTC)

There is no Koala15. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:31, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

There is no Koala15, only Zuul!--Shirt58 (talk) 10:22, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Read WP:3RR. And then, if this really matters so much to you, discuss it on Talk:Mind Your Manners (Pearl Jam song). Though you should probably bear in mind that the mere fact that a song has been played on a television program is probably going to be regarded as trivia - unless you can cite an independent source that explains its significance to the program. (And as for Koala15 being 'deleted', we seem to be having technical problems - Koala15 is still here, and has never been blocked.) AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:50, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I see that not only have you not discussed the problem on the article's talk page, you have also not attempted to discuss it with Koala15 on his/her user talk page, nor did you notify Koala15 of the fact that you were raising the topic here at ANI. You need to read the clear notices at the top of this page. - David Biddulph (talk) 13:57, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "having their account deleted" - this is, in fact, technically impossible. Someone's user page can indeed be deleted - and there is absolutley nothing wrong, unusual, or suspicious about that. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:02, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

IP Sock of User:BBBAAACCC

Can we throw a block at the Ip found User talk:212.174.135.194. It's a duck test, is

Although there are an another source except my sources, he vandalising the page Zarrine Khan without any explanation or using talk page. And also he should be blocked because of 3RR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.174.135.194 (talk) 13:45, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

It's not vandalism to revert an obvious sock and poorly sourced material. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 13:47, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Yup - the IP seems to think that Pashtun is a nationality. It isn't. It is an ethnicity. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:59, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

IP blocked due to the deafening quacking, and the block of BBBAAACCC extended by 24 hours for the blatant block evasion. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:01, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Help needed

As I mentioned above, I extended the block to 48 hours from the original 24 on BBBAAACCC, but I just noticed, while checking his talk page, that the block expiry time is currently set to 22:46:42 GMT on the twelvth, even though I put the 6th, and when I just tried to change it to the correct time...it still says an expiry time on the 12th. What da heck is going on, and can anyone fix it? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:25, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Never mind; it was a brain burp, although I set the correct date I forgot to change the day in the string from "Tue" to "Wed". Fixed. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:26, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

And indef

As the user has continued to IP sockpuppet blatantly with continued racist personal attacks, the block on User:BBBAAACCC has been extended to indef. In addition I've rangeblocked 212.174.135.192/26 for a week, if this causes collateral damage then modifying it is A-OK. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:16, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh, no, another edit war

There's an edit war going on at Americas, with editors reverting one another even as they snipe at one another on the talk page. As near as I can tell the bone of contention is all of two words in the article. Could someone please protect the thing until the editors are finshed duking it out on the talk page; it's cluttering up my watchlist. Deor (talk) 23:12, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Sure. Done. Can I give the onlookers a piece of advice? When you see these edit warriors at it, slap an EW or 3R template on their talk page. Blocking is so much more satisfying than protecting, and the WMF doesn't actually pay us for protection. Edit warriors, you have a day to figure it out. Deor, would you be so kind as to liberally spray the place with EW or 3R warnings? It's homework time here. Thanks for bringing this up, Drmies (talk) 00:06, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I actually did; he removed it... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:20, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
    • I just left a general comment, addressed to everyone, in the discussion thread on the talk page—seems better than singling particular editors out. There seem to be signs that as long as the editors will focus on the discussion rather than on reverting one another, the matter can be amicably resolved. Deor (talk) 12:05, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
      • My apologies, Bushranger; I hadn't seen that though I think I looked. The one-eyed man is admin. If I had, I would have considered blocking the editor since they reverted again afterward. (I wouldn't do it if the user hadn't been warned explicitly, at least at some point--and if I see that warning, of course.) But discussion is happening, so it's alright, I suppose. Thanks Bushranger, and thanks Deor, Drmies (talk) 17:08, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Rms125a@hotmail.com

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It is believed that usernames cannot be an email address which is personal and cannot be shared to the public. --] 23:56, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Did you read the note on his talk page? Deli nk (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I did. It said that this user is watching this page and cannot be vandalized. --] 00:02, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

His talk page. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:04, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Tariqmudallal, I know that this is closed, but there are so many things wrong here... I must comment.

1. If you believe that email addresses shouldn't be shared publicly, you shouldn't post anything about it on the most widely-viewed noticeboard on the project, let alone using the email address as the title of the section.
2. As it says in the edit notice for this page, "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page." You didn't do that.
3. Before dropping a warning template on someone's talk page, particularly if they are an established user, please try to learn something about them first.

Thanks. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 12:34, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

JasonsSamuels / JewishRabbiInNY

A couple of days ago an IP editor/new editor (JasonsSamuels (talk · contribs) / JewishRabbiInNY (talk · contribs)) started adding names of what he considers to be American Jews who are "criminals" to the List of American Jews, apparently as a "tit for tat" retaliation against some list of Muslims that has criminals in it - see this comment, this edit summary, and these comments. When List of American Jews was semi-protected, he turned his attention to American Jews, adding the same material there. It's hard to communicate with this individual as he's used at least two separate IPs and three Userids to make these edits, and doesn't appear to respond to comments (as an aside his claim to be a "JewishRabbiInNY" appears dubious at best). Since he seems to hop to new articles when his original targets are semi-protected, I've brought the issue here, as I think the behavior is disruptive enough that it warrants more serious action. Jayjg 00:17, 6 November 2013 (UTC) P.S. His latest edit summary is Zionists can do what they want in the apartheid state of Israel, but not in the USA. Jayjg 00:52, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• Blocked the two and their latest IP, semi'd American Jews for a few days. I also plan to delete the "Crime" section of List of American Muslims, semi-protect that too, and will full protect it if someone adds it back before a thorough discussion somewhere. --Flo quenbeam (talk) 01:07, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
• Well done, der Floquenbeam. Jay--why didn't you put your magnificent 9-year old tool to use? Drmies (talk) 01:16, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I do not see cause for adulation. I am certain that the matter afore could have been done well, but I don't think it was.—John Cline (talk) 04:42, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Strat, I don't understand what your objection is, or what you think could have been handled better, and in which way. Drmies (talk) 05:29, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what alternative would have been better. I think it was a good block—and the other measures were called for, were they not? The editor stated a specific purpose to their edits in contravention to editing from a neutral point of view. I would want to hear a clear reason from this user why they should be allowed to edit again. --Jprg1966  06:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Drmies, I apologize for the delay in responding to your question. My initial response was a bit "knee jerk", which I have stricken. I think I confused hoping for a better outcome with a better outcome being possible. An objective review shows that Floquenbeam did in fact handle this as well as possible in accordance with policy, and I retract the unwarranted criticism. Best regards.—John Cline (talk) 10:59, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

No apology necessary, Strat (if I may still call you that--we go back a long way, you with your Strat and me with my PRS). I only just learned that this was you; good to see you again. And I see you haven't given up on seeing the glass as more than half full; I'm only a half-full kind of person myself. Drmies (talk) 16:49, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Drmies, for lending kindness in your prose. Strat is a valid nickname for me and you are most welcome to use it whenever you like for referencing me. Cheers.—John Cline (talk) 08:02, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I hope I'm not showing my ignorance, but are there any non-Jewish rabbis? EEng (talk) 13:58, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, it all depends on who you consider Jewish. --Jprg1966  15:15, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm. Good point. After all (though I personally think he's a good guy) there are some people wondering openly whether the Pope really is Catholic. EEng (talk) 06:53, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Fix your pointer

AEgis Technologies article posted by Tolsonbeerd

An article on this topic was among numerous articles posted on the Simple English Misplaced Pages from an account believed to be used by the banned company Wiki-PR. —rybec 00:33, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Probably worth a CU; It is the users only contribution, and they seem fairly familiar with commons and infoboxes. --Mdann52talk to me! 13:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Block request

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I request that User:Onorem be blocked from editing on the basis of blatant personal attacks both to myself and fellow editors, and for disruptive edits. See the edit history of Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Science‎#Why does ice do more damage than liquid water?, including the relevant edit summaries. Plasmic Physics (talk) 02:49, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Blocked for what? Defending myself? I reverted claims that I was trolling because I dared to suggest that off-topic chatter on a ref desk question should be hatted. --Onorem (talk) 02:51, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

When you show up at a ref desk page for the sole purpose of ordering other editors around, that tends to escalate whatever problem you think you're trying to fix. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Sole purpose? WTF are you talking about? I've explained my purpose for having the page on my watchlist. Your comment is completely false. What is your purpose on the page? Do you think your responses are useful to the person asking the question? --Onorem (talk) 03:02, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

What part of your comments on that page were not for the purpose of hassling other editor? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:10, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I have no interest in Plasmic Physics being blocked. I would request after review that their again changing of the hatting of a ref desk question be reverted. I'm not trolling, and I would appreciate it if they weren't allowed to close the conversation with that hatnote. --Onorem (talk) 02:59, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Coming to a ref desk for the sole purpose of hassling other editors qualifies as trolling. ←Baseball Bugs

I could say that it was hatted due the exhibition of the sowing of discord by posting inflammatory, with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response, but 'trolling' is a shorter word; and it seems that you were quite successful, based off Bugs' replies in the hatted discussion. Plasmic Physics (talk) 03:09, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Both of you should relax a bit. I'm surprised and somewhat disappointed that something like this has made it to ANI so quickly. Just my 2¢ Ross Hill 03:14, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• The {{hat}} with an insulting editorial has been replaced with just plain {{hat}}. Please don't bring this silliness here, don't call people trolls, don't say "fuck you", don't imperiously tell people to "take it to your talkpages", and in general, act more maturely. --Floquenbeam (talk) 03:11, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I would be happy to drop it if the claim that I was trolling would be removed from the record. I didn't bring this here. --Onorem (talk) 03:12, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Look, I didn't call anyone a troll, I said that trolling behaviour was in effect. That is a simple definition of the situation. I don't care much for political correctness, I call a spade a spade. Plasmic Physics (talk) 03:15, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

You edit warred over making a specific note that it was due to the exhibition of trolling. I tried in edit summaries and your page to say it wasn't, and you kept on with warring to replace that wording. It wasn't trolling. If that is the 'simple definition', please come to my talk page to discuss it. --Onorem (talk) 03:19, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

You are the cause of this problem. You went to that page looking for trouble, and you got some. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:21, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I go to that page to see if I can help answer questions. I didn't go looking for trouble. I just saw worthless chatter when I got there...and I commented on it. (I know I did make a stupid response to a stupid question at some point this last week.) --Onorem (talk) 03:24, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

And just how did your comments help improve the situation? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:28, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

They tried to keep the reference desk a place for people to ask questions where reasonable answers might be expected... What do you think the point of the reference desk is? --Onorem (talk) 03:31, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Why is it that those who don't care for political correctness (whatever the hell that may be--I think they mean stuff they don't like) also don't care for, like, syntax and semantics? You don't call a spade a spade, you called spading spading. Unless your "I didn't call anyone a troll" statement was incorrect. Drmies (talk) 03:22, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Being politically correct means to fluff around with synonyms or vague language, with the objective of not causing offense and being socially acceptable. It is associated with politicians, hence political correctness. Plasmic Physics (talk) 03:37, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

PS Floquenbeam, I don't appreciate being threatened with blocks when my edits are in done good faith. Plasmic Physics (talk) 03:23, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I was just calling a spade a spade. --Floquenbeam (talk) 03:25, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

What is that supposed to mean, you have no way knowing whether the hatting reason was intended as an insult? You were just assuming, and rather incorrectly. Plasmic Physics (talk) 03:37, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

What is good faith about demanding that a discussion is closed with a label that says it was trolling? Just fucking accept that the discussion is closed? --Onorem (talk) 03:27, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not responding until you are decent. Plasmic Physics (talk) 03:37, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposal

• First, leave the hats there. The content within does not help the questioner at all.
• Second, Plasmic Physics & Baseball Bugs, accept that Onorem will not be blocked for this "incident". They have no signs of long term abuse, nor a record of personal attacks.
• Third, Onorem, and in fact all of you, avoid making comments that will just make people angry at you. Can you all agree to this, and move forward? Ross Hill 03:29, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Retaliation against me

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Atethnekos has tagged here and here without demonstrating actual problems with the content of the articles. Dennis Lo went through a DYK review, which checks for sourcing an NPOV, and my COI was fully disclosed. METC was also reviewed for B-class (which includes a check for citations and accuracy) and my COI is publicly displayed on my user page. Atethnekos told me to remove the tags myself, though I am not going to take the bait and give anyone ammo to use against paid editors.

Misplaced Pages:LEAD#Elements_of_the_lead says that only maintenance templates are to be used in article space on top of articles. A maintenance template declares that there is a problem with an article (NPOV perhaps) which needs to be corrected. Atethnekos' template doesn't do that, it simply puts a black mark on an article for no content-based reason. Atethnekos has refused to revert himself despite ample opportunity. I would like these templates removed unless someone can determine a POV issue in the content (in which case, they should simply fix it).

To be frank, I feel this is retaliation for disagreeing with his POV on Jimbo's talk page and for defending the opposing POV. This kind of action stifles open discussion and has a chilling effect on other editors being open and honest. He's gone after two of my articles and only one other.--v/r - TP 04:33, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I've removed the tags as no justification for the tagging was given on the talk page. There's no reason to be putting tags on the top of a page if no one can identify actual problems with the article. Mark Arsten (talk) 04:48, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I want to make a few responses to things said. I've never meant to be aggressive against paid editing. I know that I've been calm myself, but if I haven't given the appearance that I am calm, I apologize. I've also tried to be thoughtful, and several users thanked me for my contributions to the discussion , . Now, I'm probably not at the intellectual level of most contributors here, so if I have not communicated thoughtfully enough, I do apologize. I know incompetence is not an excuse, so if there is consensus that I am not competent enough to grasp these discussions, I shall bow out. Also, I've never had a complaint against me here, so if what I say is uncouth, please correct me.

As I said first and foremost when the question of retaliation arose , I never meant for anything to be a retaliation. The reason I included the tags was so that there would be effective disclosure to readers of the articles of a conflict of interest. When I first included the tag , I said I was being bold. I also believe I was being WP:BOLD when I included the tag the other two times. If the next step in the cycle is a revert, then I would start a discussion. It seems the discussion has already started, although I am surprised it is already at ANI. TParis has explained to me why he thinks the tags are inappropriate. I, with all due and much respect, disagree with his reasoning. I still think the tags are a good idea because an important purpose of disclosure of conflict of interest is so that readers of the articles know about the conflict.

A statement of disclosure on a talk page is not likely to be seen by the reader, so it does not fulfil this purpose. Although the consensus is that most disclaimers are not supposed to be included, I believe this normally applies when there is already a general, or site-wide, disclaimer which makes the article-specific one redundant. In the case of disclosures of conflict of interest, there is no such general disclaimer.

I am open to any discussion to convince me otherwise. I also think that TParis may be convinced of my position. Even if there is no change of my mind, and the consensus is against my position, I would go along with this consensus. I do not believe that I have ever edit-warred in the past, and I have no intention of starting now. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 05:14, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm convinced you didn't intend to bait me, I believe I posted this before your last response on your talk page. But I'm not convinced your right overall and I'm not convinced someone else wouldn't take the opportunity to use such a thing against me. Thank you Mark for removing the tags. Atethnekos, if you want my opinion, let me know when you do open that RFC. I think we're done here.--v/r - TP 05:29, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Repeated copyright violation at Sibur

94.25.115.124 (talk)‎ has twice added copyrighted material to Sibur, for the first time in March for which they were warned, and for a second time, today. User:Petchem2013 (talk | contribs) also added the same copyvio material here in June. I know there is quite a time gap between the two edits the IP made buy it is clearly the same person due to the fact that they added the same material to the same page, and since they have already been warned and ignored it, it would be pointless to just warn them again. Sarahj2107 (talk) 13:54, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Might an SPI be useful? It's conceivable that two different users decided to copy and paste from a website about the company. I agree it is suspicious, but I'd think verifying the link between the IP and the account could give a clearer idea of what steps need to be taken. --Jprg1966  15:29, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I know an SPI would probably be need to prove a connection between the IP and the account. My main concern, and the reason I am reporting it here, is the IP has twice added the same content despite being warned. Sarahj2107 (talk) 16:20, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Protected admin talk pages

I've always taken a view that, as an admin, my talk page should be accessible to isps and newbies since they are the most likely to want to find out why their articles were deleted. If that means that I occasionally get some petulant/angry/death-from-cancer postings, that goes with the mop. I stumbled across a permanently semi-protected admin talk page today (no name needed), which to me seems against the spirit of being an admin. However, I don't know if there is any policy regarding letting anyone edit our talk pages. Any ideas? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:03, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I semi my page once in awhile because I get a lot of spam for some reason. When I do it, there is an automated template that detects my protection and directs folks to an unprotected subpage. I don't think there is a reason for an indefinite protection but sometimes semi is helpful.--v/r - TP 14:19, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

(ec)Have you checked how much vandalism (harassment, whatever) there was prior to the protection, and how long the protection has been in place. While I agree with you in principle, I don't believe there is a specific policy requiring our talk pages to be unprotected, and in some cases I can very well understand the need to (semi-) protect the page anyway. If it's just an "I don't like IPs and newbies" attitude, then it is a serious problem though; and if the problems are long ago, then asking the admin to try unprotecting may be a possibility, sometimes people simply forget such things. Fram (talk) 14:21, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:PROT#User_talk_pages. It should not protected unless there is recent, extreme vandalism. John Reaves 14:55, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

In this case, there had been persistent offensiveness and the page was protected by an uninvolved admin, I was just concerned that the the protection, now removed, had been in place since January. The subpage suggestion in the policy link above makes sense. Thanks to all Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:14, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Possible COI / edit war at Tom Six

I just reverted an edit at Tom Six (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and noticed a slow motion edit war involving the addition of uncited peacockery by 77.170.6.222 (talk · contribs) on October 1. A number of other editors, including 192.64.61.15 (talk · contribs), 82.73.4.192 (talk · contribs), and 173.174.248.191 (talk · contribs) have removed the material owing to BLP/peacock concerns. IP 77.170, who originally added the material, responded multiple times to these reverts by restoring the material in question. Additionally, this IP claimed in an October 28 edit summary that they represent Tom Six professionally (or that they received this information from his management). The IP I reverted today is 62.194.162.138 (talk · contribs), who had not previously edited the page but seemed familiar with the edit war (edit summary: "this is checked and accurate information, please stop deleting this").

Due to the multiple concerns involved (edit warring, IP hopping, COI) and the long time scale, I wasn't sure how best to untangle it other than to bring it here. --Jprg1966  16:08, 6 November 2013 (UTC)'

Anybody? --Jprg1966  15:22, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Help. Quick.

Our future is at stake: User:Sitush tells me he's been hit by an autoblock, related to User:Scottsdesk. Sitush emailed me something to copy, an unblock request, but I don't understand the syntax of the request and this may be quicker anyway. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 17:17, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

A lot of users caught up in this, see User_talk:Jimfbleak#Block? Obviously a technical issue which has been mentioned at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(technical)#Autoblock_checker_down Valenciano (talk) 17:20, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

And it's being fixed, right? If the caste warriors find out that Sitush is out of action we'll run out of server space in a day. Drmies (talk) 17:29, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I brought this up a couple of weeks ago . There's a replacement here. There is no autoblock showing on Sitush's account, but if you send me the email I can look deeper. --Jezebel'sPonyo 17:34, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Nevermind, I can see this is a wider issue than simply an autoblock affecting Sitush. --Jezebel'sPonyo 17:37, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I cant use my usurped Warrington-Hafspajen account adress (the one with the 10 000 edits, ask WritKeeper about that) . You are currently unable to edit pages on Misplaced Pages due to an autoblock affecting your IP address. Somebody got in an autoblocked me. It says Elockid blocked me. Autoblocked because your IP address was recently used by "NoahS24fgtp". The reason given for NoahS24fgtp's block is: "Spambot". And take a look at the post I posted om vandlism, my edits on that. I think somebody blocked me away because I did that. (this is the global Sw account, that is still working, there was a difference since the usurpation, the old one was different from the global. ) And I was the one to suggest that? Never did that. Crazy. Or what is THIS all about? a joke? Hafspajen (talk) 17:10, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

No, as above, it's clearly a wider technical issue. Admins like Elockid and Jimfbleak are reliable people who wouldn't do things "for a joke." This appears to be a technical glitch rather tha any admin error. Valenciano (talk) 17:45, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

...and now apparently fixed. If anyone is still experiencing issues they should note it at VPT to ensure the techs/devs see it. --Jezebel'sPonyo 17:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm ok now. Thanks all. - Sitush (talk) 17:59, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• I can think of one obvious solution to stop Sitush from having autoblock problems in the future... Mark Arsten (talk) 18:58, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oh, imagine the turnout we'll get for that. I would support it, though I doubt that he'll want to put himself through it. Drmies (talk) 19:07, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. (Yay, in before the nominators!) Kim Dent-Brown 00:15, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I suppose so, but I just thought I'd mention it. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:51, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• • • Will be a great to see POV pushers of every caste finally working together and voting in unison at Sitush's RFA. :) Abecedare (talk) 20:27, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
      • I think it might overload SPI also ;) - Sitush (talk) 21:36, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
        • Heh. The other annoying thing is that the one subject area where it would be most useful if you had the mop is also the one where the same crowd would wave at WP:INVOLVED if you ever used them, causing endless more rounds of a discussion that already feels way too iterative. :) MLauba 00:26, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Admins using user page as talk page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A couple of admins that should know better are quite obviously using User:Mcdragonsi as a talk page (see history). Despite being clearly told on the same page "Any admin trying to poke their nose in here can duly fuck off.". The two admins are: Anthony Bradbury and EatsShootsAndLeaves who have been notified. PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 21:37, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

So, why is this at ANI? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:46, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Quite simply because the TL;DR of their communication with me was "I am admin, you are user, I am smart, you are dumb, I am big, you are little, I am right, you are wrong" and clearly they are unwilling to negotiate over their errors. PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 21:52, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

What communication? I don't see any. (hint:edit summaries don't count) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:54, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

this communication. PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 21:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Anthony Bradbury's comments (which were actually constructive in my opinion) on the user page were from three days ago, and Mcdragonsi is more then capable of removing the comments if they don't want them there. I don't see why you've felt it necessary to insert yourself in the middle and then bring it to the drama boards, nor can I imagine what kind of action you expect us to take. --Jezebel'sPonyo 22:00, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

A simple question. What has any of this got to do with writing and maintaining an encyclopaedia? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:57, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, AtG, I was trying to subtly hint that PL is blowing this way out of proportion and should drop it, particularly as he hasn't actually talked to the people involved, but I guess it didn't take. I've been told my deadpan is too much. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:59, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• Every intelligent, long-term, established editor knows that there are the occasional times that someone - not just admins - actually has to post on a userpage as opposed to the user talkpage. Considering the content of Mcdragonsi's userpage, this was one of those rare times that a wise, friendly message from an admin under those comments was the best way forward.

The more obvious question is this: why the hell does PL keep sticking their nose into areas where they should not be sticking their noses, and why the hell to they not pay close attention when they are advised as to why things were done the way they were. PL has to stop their absolutely clueless behaviour - they're rapidly going beyond what the community will put up with, and this ridonculous situation he CREATED, and now brought to ANI is a perfect example ES&L 22:06, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Sure; I created this situation by misusing a user page(!) PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 22:30, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you did. You had no policy-based reason to revert AB's post there, and no logical or intelligent reason to do so either, considering the content of that userpage before you even got there. The when AB explained it to you, you simply removed his explanation from your talkpage and re-reverted. Smarten up; really ES&L 22:33, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Not until you WP:AGF and remove your obviously heavy bias towards your admin "friends" PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 22:42, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I think the community as a whole is past WP:AGF with you ... and your accusation that I have "admin friends" and any form of bias is a personal attack, and laughable. I see that rather than address the substance of my message, you're simply resorting to attacks. Brilliant tactic. ES&L 22:45, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

It takes two to tango ES&L. Please provide proof of YOUR accusations and personal attacks against me. PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 22:48, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) this and this readily spring to mind as clear examples of you resorting to personal attacks against me. Care to explain? PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 22:58, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I would say you never should have reverted the post on that user's page. Why did you feel it was necessary to do so? AutomaticStrikeout (₵) 22:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

And yet despite the personal attacks against me I still do not have any explanation as to WHY it is acceptable to use this user page as a talk page! If somebody could provide it to me that would be much appreciated PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 23:06, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Why do you think it's a significant problem? It's a minor error at most. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 23:09, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

PantherLeapord, Anthony Bradbury gave you a perfectly valid explanation in this very dif you provided. You need to drop this, several uninvolved editors have told you that there are no grounds for your complaint, no great wrong to right, and you're creating a tempest in a teapot. If I hadn't already expressed an opinion I would close this myself before you dig yourself deeper or poke EatShootleaves into actually doing some of the things you are repeatedly accusing them of. Take a break and leave the stick you're wielding at the door. --Jezebel'sPonyo 23:34, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I've already closed it once. PL reverted me. Black Kite (talk) 23:37, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you linked to two things, neither of which contain a personal attack. Have you read WP:NPA? How about reading WP:WIAPA. I have never violated NPA against you ... although I'm pretty close right now. And how about next time stop accusing me of failing to respond when I was offline for about 20 fucking minutes to pick up my child from the Doctor's office - you're smart enough to know how to check my contributions to see that I had made none since my last post to this noticeboard. WP:CIR around here, PL. ES&L 23:21, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

You insist you never violated it yet in that very post you violate it. PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 23:33, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I think you need to go and read WP:NPA. I closed this section to save any more time being wasted on this complete and utter non-issue. Now, I strongly suggest you drop it. Black Kite (talk) 23:35, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to post below the closed archive, but since Bencherlite, BlackKite and I have all grossly abused our powers, could someone delete the WP:POLEMIC-violating User:PantherLeapord and User talk:PantherLeapord, and then block immediately if they get re-added. Anyone brave enough to actually explain WP:NPA to them would beneficial as well. Cheers ES&L 00:25, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I've dealt with it. I'm sure he understands NPA, let's just give him a bit to calm down.--v/r - TP 00:40, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for step 1 ... don't blame you for not trying to tackle step 2...I'm sure you've read the above archive? Do you really believe that he has the slightest inkling of what WP:NPA actually says? ES&L 00:44, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:CALMDOWN what would have really been beneficial would to ignore it per User:Heimstern/Ignoring_incivility. Given the panther is only a 20%, 267 mainspace editor I'm sure ya'll can ensure they're gone in no time. I find it truly sad that so many admins could react so quickly to a lame removal of a lame post on a user page and this lame thread, while an editor stating Asians can't be Austrailian et. al. (see current thread #1) doesn't seem to concern ya'll sufficently to comment. NE Ent 00:53, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Personal attacks need to be redacted

• Writegeist (talk · contribs)

I've been in a discussion on User_talk:Jimbo Wales about paid editing and talking to editors about my experience. This user has been spreading ad hominems. They've said that defending myself is a crime and then went on to insult me and assume some serious bad faith. It was pointed out to them that they've crossed the line and their response was to throw more personal attack at that user. Writegeist's comments should be redacted.--v/r - TP 21:43, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I note this paid-to-edit administrator takes my comments as insulting etc. I think my points were well made, I totally disagree with his pejorative labels, and it's absolutely no problem to me to strike the comments to satisfy him, so I shall now do so. I have already struck my reply to attacks--unfounded, in my view--by another editor, as that part of the discussion was off topic and threatened to become disruptive if continued. Writegeist (talk) 22:14, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

It isn't "well made" when you assume bad faith about some attribute of them that you don't like, poke them about it, and they defend themselves. As I've already said, that's circular reasoning. You are the cause of your own conclusions. It is wrong to expect someone not to defend themselves and to assume that the act of, not even the content of but the act itself, defending oneself is in itself evidence of wrongdoing. If you have a problem with me, show a policy I've violated. Otherwise, keep the personal comments about me to yourself. You're not going to get a WP:CIVILITY free pass just because I got paid once to write an article for which even User:Smallbones, as one of my sharpest critics, said was a good article.--v/r - TP 22:18, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I looked for my comment, but the best I could find was "the article is ok." I might have said "good" somewhere, I guess but it would have been a somewhat inflated "good". Smallbones_(smalltalk) 23:03, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

...and yet Writegeist, you used the edit-summary for your post above to take cheap pot-shots? That's pathetic behaviour, and unbecoming of anyone on this project. Based on that, I think action needs to be taken - this BS has to be stopped for the protection of the project and its editors ES&L 22:21, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh please. The project and its editors don't need protection from paid-to-edit administrators being openly referred to as paid-to-edit administrators. The project and its editors need protection from paid-to-edit administrators. Writegeist (talk) 01:04, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Nice opinion, unfortunately the two relevant policies WP:NPA and WP:COI don't support it. When you use paid-to-edit as a pejorative, it is a personal attack.--v/r - TP 01:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

...and you do it again here? Wow, I could tell you what you are, but that would break WP:NPA ES&L 22:24, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

The editing is indeed getting a bit hot over at Jimbo's talk page. The topic is naturally quite incendiary. Who would have thought up the idea that administrators should be allowed to accept pay for writing Misplaced Pages articles? It just astounds me that anybody would think this proper. But another admin is minimizing the practice, and TP admits it, and I'll say that he aggressively confronted me with the accusation that I was assuming bad faith by saying that this is improper. With such a hot topic, it is easy to see offense where none was intended. In 2 cases where I was involved, I was sure that the other admin was intentionally patronizing me, but TP pointed out the misunderstanding. Of course I noticed that TP had just been on the other side of a misunderstanding and had in effect done the same thing as I'd done. The only problem is that TP started waving around talk of banning, accusations of bad faith, NPA, etc. It's a lot worse when admins do it, and TP has been the worst of the lot, IMHO. I think if everybody calms down a bit, we'll all be ok. But I don't expect that this will ever be a friendly topic to discuss. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 23:03, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

It is a hot topic and there are a lot of editors who are throwing around assumptions as fact because there is no "face" of paid editing. I'm arguably a paid editor, arguably not but I've taken the position that I am to demonstrate that the assumptions are far worse than reality. But being bombarded with those assumptions, which are actually quite poor and exaggerated, and being the only one defending a position (and then being told that defending that position is itself a bad thing, including by you) is quite a bit taxing. You've stated even here that "It just astounds me that anybody would think this proper" which to me says that not only do you disagree with me, but you don't think anyone should even be defending this. Which then begs the question, are you even open to discussion? You should expect that others, on a project as large as this, won't all share your opinion. You really shouldn't be astounded that some don't. There is no consensus against this and harassing an editor, by going around and calling me a "paid-to-edit administrator" at every chance like Writegeist is doing, is unacceptable behavior. That needs to be stopped. A lesson should be taken out of Jimbo's book. Jimbo does not always agree with everyone, but you'll never see him tell someone they arn't allowed to make a counter argument to his views. He gives folks' arguments an objective assessment before he writes them off. For example, in your earlier comment to me, you said "I'll then go over them and show you examples of what I think is wrong." That's a pretty bad assumption. Without even looking, you assumed you would find something wrong. (ps, when I said you said it was "good", I didn't mean the positive "it's a good article" but the more mild "there are no glaring problems, we're good here.") I want an objective ear, not a predisposed one.--v/r - TP 00:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I officially ask that his edit of "Um -- someone might point out that it's no surprise to see you swing by to misrepresent my comments. Someone might point out ignorance of a well-known Shakespeare quote; and further, that "parasitic practices" really rather clearly describes practices, and not any individual editor, as parasitic; and that the words "awareness of venality" do not, in fact, say "User:So-and-so is venal." So someone might point out your comments imply a level of comprehension that's on a par with the example already noted. But thank you for your contribution to the topic at hand. be actually excised instead of cutely struck out. WG used the edit summary of struck at the request of paid-to-edit administrator at 22:17 6 Nov, which I think is a bit beyond snarky. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Yet another misrepresentation from this user. The edit history clearly shows that when I struck my response to the attack in which he recast and thereby misrepresented my comments to TParis, my actual edit summary said: "striking, as off-topic conflict with this user is unhelpful". Writegeist (talk) 00:49, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the edit history clearly shows "struck at the request of paid-to-edit administrator" ES&L 01:01, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Read Collect's comments here again. They clearly refer to my comments to him, not to TParis. These are the comments he wants "excised". He misrepresents my edit summary on those comments by claiming I used a summary which in fact I used on comments to another user. That's about as clear an example of misrepresentation as I've ever seen here. I'm slightly surprised to see an administrator going along with it. I even gave you a link to the actual edit summary on my comments to Collect. "Wow, I could tell you what you are, but that would break WP:NPA" Writegeist (talk) 01:13, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

No, Collect says outright that the edit summary comment was in the "22:17 6 Nov" edit.--v/r - TP 01:21, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. The time and date were dropped in devoid of the link that would help clarify—to (most, I bet) readers who don't go ferreting around for the quoted summary in the edit history—that this summary, contrary to the clear impression given, was not the one used on the comments to which Collect devotes the entire preceding substance of his complaint. And by juxtaposing the words "...struck out", which close his complaint about my comments to him, with the words "WG used the edit summary of 'struck at the request...,' which open the sentence immediately following, the totally false impression is given that the struck comments he is complaining about carried the 'struck at the request...' edit summary. Smallbones's incisive comments aside, I'm finding this all rather tedious now, so I'll leave you to it. Writegeist (talk) 03:36, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I noticed something that is interesting (at least to me). I would normally think that a personal attack would need to require some negative element. However, consider the following in a hypothetical discussion whether some user should be blocked. user:xxxx Is opposed. In the discussion one editor remarks:

As we discuss this, it may be relevant to note that user:xxxx, who is opposing this block, has been blocked three times.

In contrast, consider the following:

Multiply -blocked user:xxxx is opposed.

In both cases, an editor is sharing the information that some has been blocked. Yet the second form seems more negative. Usually a term as a modifier seems a message that it is a pejorative, even if the underlying facts aren't all that negative. TParis appears to have admitted accepting pay for editing, and is an admin, yet in a discussion, I think there's a difference between:

As we discuss this, it may be relevant to note that user: TParis, who is making this point, is an admin and has received payment for editing.

Versus

Paid-to-edit administrator user: TParis, who is making this point

I'm no semantic expert, and it seems like the factual content is the same, but the second sounds like a personal attack. I don't think we should permit it, although I'm not sure it fits squarely into our definition of a personal attack.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:03, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

United States

We need some admin intervention at United States article please. We have one of our most high profile article having a long edit war that despite the page being locked a few time just this week alone wont end. The editors involved are talking things out - but as all can see they just cant some deleting and resorting stuff over just taking things out. Started a few weeks ago with this being done with +809 of data...but as time has gone we are at the point that +29,077 of date is begin edit, as in deleted then restored etc.. - Moxy (talk) 21:58, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

User:WilliamJE

I started an article on the recent mid air collision involving two planes carrying skydivers. Within a short while WilliamJE prodded it, and the prod was removed by another wikipedian. WilliamJE then sent it to AfD, and later removed a fact whilst I was looking for a good cite. None of this so far I have a problem with.

However after demanding everything be cited, WilliamJE is now removing cites that verify information in the article, e.g. the ownership of the skydiving club and its location. . WilliamJE asserts that he has written many articles on crashes, but that does not excuses his editing and attitude to new articles. Removing cites after sending it to AfD and complaining about lack of cites is laughable.Martin451 22:19, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Having gone through the entire history of that article, I cannot fathom how it meets basic requirements to even have been created as a userspacedraft, let alone a live article ... no comment on the behaviours of WJE yet ES&L 22:30, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

How is this an issue for ANI, as opposed to, say, WP:DRN? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

This being brought to ANI is as preposterous as the two citations I removed neither of which have anything to do with the crash. Lets examine them

This gives directions to an airport. What that has to do with the crash I don't know.

This is a newspaper article from 2010 which M451 is using as proof for the 2nd paragraph of the article. It fails it on two points. First- Whether Chuck Androsky still owns the aircraft cited in the article but whether they are the crash aircraft is not known. I did a google news search Mr. Androsky hasn't been mentioned in the news accounts of this accident. The article says Mr. Androsky and the company operate the exact same two types of aircraft that were involved in the crash but it is WP:OR to draw the conclusion that they ARE the aircraft involved. OR reads 'Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.' M451 is taking news accounts of this crash plus a 3 year old newspaper article to come to the conclusion Mr. Androsky still owns the company and that his cessnas are the aircraft involved. That's OR and these are not proper sources and I removed them.

Lastly the first information I removed from the article was due to M451's edit summary when he put it in 'tale number from facebook page. Company only had two Cessnas'. M451 should know that Facebook fails WP:RS. M451 isn't a newbie around here. He should know both RS and OR....William 01:02, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

It is not preposterous bringing it here when you have asked me to take your removal of cites to another place rather than discuss them on the talk page. The skydivesuperior link cites the location of the club. The Superior Telegram cites the founder and owner, and yes the aircraft are still registered in his name. Removing sources, then removing text supported by those sources is petty, especially after nominating the article for AfD. I could add other sources saying the two Cessnas are those involved, but would WilliamJE then remove those sources?Martin451 07:51, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Editor harassing real life sex abuse victim by adding her name to the article on the person she accused

So I check my watchlist and discover a suspicious edit adding the name of one of his victims to the article Bob Filner. I reverted the edit with an edit summary that said "that is harassment." --Bigpoliticsfan (talk) 22:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Why is that harassment? It's published in reputable third party sources, and thus it can also be included in an encyclopedia if it's useful/beneficial information to the article as a whole, without WP:UNDUE ES&L 22:43, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Bigpoliticsfan, in the future please use this form to request suppression of a revision. It is also linked in the edit notice of this page. Ross Hill (talk) 22:47, 6 Nov 2013 (UTC) 22:47, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Quite the sensational title here. The name is sourced, I see no issue. John Reaves 22:53, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Proper sourcing is a necessary condition for inclusion, but it is not sufficient for inclusion in and of itself. (Otherwise, reductio ad absurdum style, everything published in any reliable source could just be entered into Misplaced Pages.) Other policies and guidelines, such as the undue weight policy and the bio of living persons policy must be considered. Without some other justification other than "it's sourced!", I don't see why including the name of a victim wouldn't be a BLP violation. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 00:09, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

• Comment it's not a violation of BLP to include names of people who are included prominently in reliable sources. It most definitely is not harassment. Now whether or not its a good idea or even notable to include the name in the article is a basic content dispute and not up to the level if this notice board. JOJ 00:33, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

...and in fact there is already a section to discuss this at the article's talk page: Talk:Bob Filner#Names of victims. This did not have to be brought to AN/I, although input from any of you is welcome at the talk page. --MelanieN (talk) 00:43, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

• I think it is very much appropriate to bring it here, for this is in my opinion an outrageous violation of the principles of BLP -- do not harm. WP is not a tabloid, and although other publications may report it, and although the information may be in reliable sources and we can give a reference to it, this is exactly the sort of information that should not be made more prominent in the web. I am frankly amazed that editors I respect I would say otherwise. DGG ( talk ) 07:01, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
  • "Do no harm" is an impossible standard to live up to and, if taken literally, would seriously harm the encyclopedia.

    Like it or not, facts, encyclopedic facts, may well be harmful to some living people: criminals, corrupt politicians and avaricious businesspeople, just to name a few. Any additional broadcasting of the activities of these people will be harmful to them, their reputations, their court cases and their families - but that's hardly the point. The point of BLP is not to try to avoid doing harm to anyone, it's to avoid doing harm to living people if the facts are not extremely well supported by citations from the very best of reliable sources. When that happens, when impeachable sources -- not tabloids, not scandal sheets, not TMZ or E! -- report something, and those reports are corroborated by other equally reliable sources, then it's out of our hands. Not to include those facts is a distinct disservice to our readers -- the people we are supposed to be serving here -- and an abrogation of our responsibility as encyclopedists in the modern world. That those facts will have a harmful effect on a living person is regrettable, but the additional effect of our including them when unimpeachable sources are reporting them is minimal.

    We are not a social services agency, here to make everyone feel better about themselves, we're here to write an encyclopedia in a neutral, straightforward, non-judgmental manner, with our information supported by citations from reliable sources. When we fulfill those requirements, we have fulfilled our obligations to our readers and to the subjects of our articles, to whom we owe nothing more than that: accuracy and neutrality. To say that we have another, overriding obligation, a blanket proscription to "do no harm" is a egregious misreading of the intent of the BLP policy, one that, if widely believed, would cripple our ability to do what it is we're here to do. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

    • WP:AVOIDVICTIM (part of WP:BLP) is explicit: Misplaced Pages editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization. That's irrespective of the quality of the sources and embraces our simple human responsibilities. NebY (talk) 13:33, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
• This one could go either way. Policies go both ways but lean towards leaving it out. My thought (from just a superficial look at this thread) would be to leave it out. The person's name is not essential to the usefulness / encyclopedic informativeness of the article, and moving it from the obscurity of aging sources into eternal prominence (Misplaced Pages) is certainly a change in the degree of privacy afforded. North8000 (talk) 13:53, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
• Move to close. This is a content issue not requiring administrator intervention. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 14:48, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
• Can I just note that the discussion points toward a certain US-centrism, where everyone is named in the press (and thus often here), victims and not-yet tried and convicted suspects alike? Fortunately the policy cited above by NebY is more globalized than that. And BMK, I'm sorry, but I agree completely with DGG. One can write perfectly decent Misplaced Pages articles without naming (and often shaming). The desire to include names is one that should be countered, not endorsed. Often, naming does harm; claiming that we're not a social services agency misses the point twice: Misplaced Pages's "don't do BLP harm" (to paraphrase DGG) was not intended (nor could it have been) to change anything in the outside world, and inside Misplaced Pages's world there would be no need for soothing any victim of an AVOIDVICTIM violation if we hadn't named them in the first place--as you yourself suggest, it is entirely possible that harm can be done by our edits here. Shouldn't we avoid that, even though other outlets don't have such policies? Or, why should I not beat my dog if others beat dogs? And please don't hit my little Sadie just to make a point. She's the best dog in the world. Drmies (talk) 16:03, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Well, we are discussing a US topic. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 17:37, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Personal Attacks by DrFleischman against Attleboro

I've reverted his attacks on me here. Please intervene. Attleboro (talk) 18:49, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I agree we need immediate intervention. I just requested temporary full protection here. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:05, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll admit it, I called Attleboro a troll. Do persistent disruption, edit warring, and sockpuppetry qualify? Not to mention possible block evasion going back for years? He appears to be an old friend once known as Mbhiii. Evidence here, here, here. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:27, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand what it is you're looking for. You're running an ANI thread here while exchanging peace offers and soup on the user's talk page? Let's wait and see what the conclusion of the SPI is, but regardless of that, decide what it is you want, and on the basis of what evidence. Drmies (talk) 16:09, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not running any ANI thread; Attleboro started this one. I made the peace offer in good faith but Attleboro rejected it. There's nothing wrong with making a context-appropriate Seinfeld reference. I want the SPI to run its course. The evidence is presented there. Meanwhile Attleboro and his socks continue to edit war and otherwise disrupt, even after temporary full protection and a short block. Hence the request for full protection. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:50, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I see. My apologies. This is a fine mess: I applied full protection for three days to put a complete stop to the edit war. Mark Arsten's semi-protection (for a year) should probably be re-applied when mine runs out. I hope the SPI delivers something useful; right now it's not providing me with anything I can use, or I'd be the first one to block. Dr. Fleischman, you have been brought here on civility charges and that's bad, of course. Please play nice. to Attleboro: your hands are not clean, and that's all I'll say.

Now, the edit warring thing, that history gives me an instant headache, but I don't need ACA to help me there; some tylenol will suffice. Perhaps someone like Bbb23, whose mind has been trained for discerning who's right and who's wrong in an edit war, can help out, or perhaps Mark will. I see you filed at ANEW but it led to the aforementioned semi-protection, not blocks. Whether any of them are interested in blocking now that it's fully protected remains to be seen, but there you have it. Good luck, Drmies (talk) 19:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Drmies, you mentioned that you put Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act under full protection for three days, but the edit summary suggests that it lasts through November 14; is this an error (or perhaps I am misinterpreting it somehow?) –Prototime (talk · contribs) 19:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Correction: seven days. My apologies. I was thinking of three but made it a bit longer since SPI is a bit understaffed, it seems, and the matters are complicated and controversial enough. If some kind of agreement is hashed out on the talk page on this narrow issue, it can always be shortened. Thanks for the question, Drmies (talk) 19:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Harold E. Varmus deleted

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The entire talk page, including the history, at https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Harold_E._Varmus was deleted, with no reason given. What happened? Can an admin restore it? --Nbauman (talk) 23:51, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I see a talk page and a history dating back to 2006. --Jezebel'sPonyo 23:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

(ec) That does not appear to be the case, actually. There are no deleted revisions, and the page history shows the talk page has never exceeded 462 bytes - aside from project banners, there has never been anything on this page other than an anon's statement that the talk page was deleted, left in May 2012. Resolute 23:59, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

user 86.157.181.7, likely just incompetence

• 86.157.181.7 (talk · contribs)

A goodly percentage of this user's edits require reverting, but if I take this to AIV I suspect it will be turned aside. Lots of unnecessary tweaking of headings and mistaken 'improvements'. The user may be well-intentioned, but needs someone to ride shotgun. If anyone else wants to try to engage them, please feel free. I don't want to chase them all over Misplaced Pages. Thanks, JNW (talk) 01:33, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Might it help to actually talk to the editor rather than chasing them around the enyclopaedia? Unless I missed it, no one has actually tried that yet. All I see are three templated messages plus finally some more specific comments when telling them about this ANI. Templates are fine when appropriate, but in a more complex case where the edits are not clearly bad, some actual explaination of the problems with the edits would help.

I have started that, but I'm a lot less sure than you appear to be about the problems with the IP.

To start with, I looked at the 3 warnings. One was for changing the DOB without a source at Roh Moo-hyun. This is the sort of thing which looks like vandalism. Except that if you look in to the case, there is no clear source for the 1 September figure. There is a source used in the early life figure but it requires subscription and I'm not sure it actually shows the DOB (see Talk:Roh Moo-hyun). And a simple search find plenty of RS for the IP's 6th August date, not many for our 1 September date (edit: although there is a suggestion it's 6th of the 8th month of the lunar calendar).

The next warning was for changing the cause of death to "suicide by hanging" from "suicide". I don't know if it's normal for the infobox to go in to such detail, but the article itself already suggests the death was suicide by hanging (it's a bit uncertain on the suicide aspect in general).

The final warning from you but as it wasn't directed at anything in specific, I don't know if it's clear to the IP what you're complaining about particularly considering the earlier 2 warnings don't seem to be that justified.

Next, I had a look at 3 of the IPs edits from their contrib history. They were which was changing a section heading from "Death" to "Illness and death", the section does somewhat cover an illness so whether or not it's necessary, I don't see anything obviously wrong with it. (In fact, IIRC, the illness and death is probably more common for a section like that.)

The next edit is . This does look to be problematic as it's changing the name to a longer name without a source, and it doesn't seem to be supported by the source used in the article nor does a search find any evidence for the full name.

is next, which is a self revertal of tributes to the subheading . Since the section contained no tributes, the revertal was proper (perhaps the IP misread the section or intended to add tributes but then changed their mind). Either way, considering the quick self revertal, if the IP isn't regularly doing stuff like this I don't see it as a problem. However from looking more there, the IP also removed "suicide (gunshot)" from the infobox earlier . This came before changing the Stephanie Parker article so it doesn't seem to be confusion from them being reverted/warned there, so it does seem to be a bit of a inappropriate and strange change. Particularly as the IP doesn't seem to be squemish about death or suicides (most of their edits seem to relate to that).

P.S. It would of course be helpful if the IP sought clarification themselves. On the other hand if many of their edits are not clearly blockable stuff, just following them around reverting and templating them often does not achieve much. Particularly as no one is likely to block them in such cases. Even a simple message will I suspect help a lot since even if they don't respond, people will take much more kindly to blocking them when it's clear they're not going to respond to problems raised with their edits.

Nil Einne (talk) 07:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it might be helpful to address these issues with the editor, and I thank you for attempting to discuss this with them. But I'm never encouraged by editors who don't use summaries, and don't attempt to respond to warnings with an explanation, preferring to continue on the same path. I think that path is a pattern of little more than test edits, adding 'death' or 'personal life and death' headers, punctuated by the occasional unsourced change or head-scratcher , . I suspect there's a competence or language issue, and am dubious that the user will communicate. But maybe I'm quick to predicate my interpretation on previous experience. You're correct to make the effort. Thanks, JNW (talk) 12:26, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/31.53.139.112 appears to have been the same editor and is currently blocked. Peter James (talk) 14:57, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

No surprise; thank you for the note. Should this account be blocked for evasion, and are there any more where that came from? JNW (talk) 15:12, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Reporting User:DIREKTOR because keeps reverting sourced edits but refuses to discuss

I reported User:DIREKTOR for edit warring noticeboard about ten days ago because he or she has been reverting a sourced edits refusing to discuss about the materiality and the grounds of the revert. The page was protected (with the last version, i.e. with my edit reverted as I moved away from the issue to keep my hands clean).

I insisted with several requests to participate to the discussion and I showed extreme patience but this has proven to be useless. The editor declares "to be disgusted by my conduct", "qualifies my proficency in English insufficient to participate to the discussion", "that my only intention is to enter spicy sentences", "that I enter nationalist edits" and so on. The user replied (I quote): Get other people involved, or find someone who understands English at a reasonable level to discuss for you. Otherwise, I say openly: I will just revert everything you do to this article. It is NOT my job to spend time "policing" your attempts at fraudulent referencing, and not a single user can be asked to discuss with someone who reads every other post because he barely understands the language. It is also not my job to fix your faulty grammar: if you don't understand English up to a certain level - you're not supposed to edit articles on enWiki..

I have the feeling that the issue is rather that, I just participated bringing a view that is different from his views but that is equally well sourced. The edit I posted was literally copied (I am sorry for that) from a English book from a Reputable institution but even this did not work: the edit was reverted without any reason. All all my requests to know why did not work.

I requested a 3O but this could not be processed because no discussion had place before. So I found myself between a rock and a hard place. For this reason I report this incident. My primary concern is to find a solution. Useless to say, if the community confirms that Direktor has behaved in conformity with WP's rules I will accept the judgement. For what I could see on other discussions, Direktor usually talks like that. So may be this is normal and acceptable.Silvio1973 (talk) 11:25, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

• At a glance it seems User:DIREKTOR (Silvio1973, please note you linked another user above - user names are case sensitive apparently) has WP:OWN behaviour on Talk:Istrian exodus. Refusal to comment on what seems a decent source-based addition looks disruptive to me. I suspect there is some pro-Yugoslavian POV on the part of DIREKTOR, but I am the son of Istrian exiles, and as such I'm quite biased on the issue, most probably.--cyclopia 11:48, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

That is most certainly not the case. I have not expanded that article in any significant way and absolutely do not consider myself the "owner". As for "refusing to comment", I have filled an entire talkpage archive and more trying my best to work this out with Silvio. Then we rolled back to an old version and basically agreed not to edit without consensus... until the user typically disregarded all agreements and started another edit war. I explain my position in detail at the talkpage . The bottom line is that, whichever way you look at it, Silvio and myself certainly seem unable to discuss properly - and discussion is very much required on this complex, sensitive, and highly controversial issue, which is in fact the subject of something of an international dispute.

What is required is neutral input. More users. Someone who's willing to help and work with us (or perhaps against us :)) towards a neutral representation of the source material. And yes Cyclopia, while I certainly do not mean to say this "disqualifies" you somehow, it would indeed obviously be better if the input (if any) would come from users who aren't personally connected to this issue, especially actual victims of these tragic events. For the record, I am a "Yugoslav" (Croat) of Italian ancestry myself, hailing originally from Veneto. -- Director (talk) 13:05, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. I further commented on the talk page, but I fully acknowledge I have a bias -also detailed in the talk page. I'll see if I can maintain restraint or if I should leave, and for sure neutral editors should be encouraged there. However, regardless of Silvio1973 previous edits/behaviour, which I didn't analyze in detail, the last edit seemed at least worth of discussion, and not of such blunt dismissal -and you yourself actually half-acknowledged that on the talk page. In any case, I am asking there just if you can both list what are the points of contention and the sources you both use; then probably it becomes easier for editors uninvolved in the issue to see what to do.--cyclopia 14:15, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

No DIREKTOR, it's not the case. You are a responsible person and I am an incompetent, aggressive and nationalist user. And on top of that, as you correctly say my English is very poor. OK, now the entire community knows what a bad editor I am. But now please tell us what is wrong with the sources provided in support of the edit. We have been all extremely patient. Yes this issue is controversial and you do very little (if anything) to contribute to make things running more smoothly. But this time you have passed the limit. And quite a long time ago. Silvio1973 (talk) 14:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Please note that the above editors are currently at DRN concerning a related page (See Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Republic of Kosovo). I believe both pages are covered under Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia --Guy Macon (talk) 16:55, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Personal Attacks by Rockysantos against LTblb

I've reverted his attacks on me here and here. Please intervene. --LTblb (talk) 12:20, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

"You come across as a Spanish fascist trying to give false propaganda about history" is the closest thing to a violation of WP:NPA I see there, however, rather that simply redact that you are removing the entire contents of their rather valid post. This is not enough for any form of block ... if WP:WQA still existed, I'd point you there. However, can you please show us where you have engaged the editor to ask him to tone down his rhetoric before coming here? ES&L 12:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, my English is not very good , and I don't know well the mechanisms of wikipedia in English, but that user has gravely insulted me repeatedly. So I requested intervention of some Adminstrator.--LTblb (talk) 12:34, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I have printed what was the potentially improper words from your first link above, but it's nothing that requires administrator intervention because it most certainly is not a "grave insult". The second link shows nothing that is a personal attack whatsoever. Again, I'll ask - could you tell me where you approached the other editor first? ANI is a last resort for interpersonal tiffs ES&L 12:44, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Excuse, I do not understand exactly what you try to say to me; I think it means that I should warn before Rockysantos about his insulting tone? I should not have come to this page? The discussion is about a substitution of a map in Spain. --LTblb (talk) 12:52, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

1. I see one possible insult, and I have removed just that from the article talkpage - it wasn't blockable anyway
2. I fail to see "repeated" insults, let alone any "grave insults"
3. Please don't ever remove the entire post when you try and remove something that clearly violates WP:NPA
4. You are supposed to try and resolve your differences between yourselves, not bring it to ANI
5. Dispute resolution exists for a reason

ES&L 12:59, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

In this edit summary, he also called me a fascist.

I appreciate your advice and your patience. Best regards.--LTblb (talk) 13:08, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

No he doesn't. "...to support his fascist re written history..." Actually, there are two ways to read that link:

1) in usual English, it means history that was re-written by fascists (possibly other than you) that you are putting forward ("his fascist-re written history")

2) it could mean history that was a type of re-written history that is fascist in nature, being put forward by you

In neither case are you being called a fascist, you're merely putting forward something that was written by a possibly fascist point of view ES&L 13:19, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Please, I request you if you can follow up on this discussion in anticipation of possible outbursts, WP:PA or misunderstandings, thanking again your comments and your attention.--LTblb (talk) 13:45, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Since the subject of personal attacks has come up, I'd like to take the opportunity to explore LTblb's conduct. This recent issue is a content dispute on which he seems to be the losing side, again. However, rather than discuss and follow WP:BRD he seems content to edit-war and hurl accusations at others. I dropped a template warning to his talk page which I felt was adequate given the situation and his previous disruption. He immediately accused me of harrassment in his reversion and again in a hostile message to my own talk page. I find it interesting that he chose not to address the content dispute - at all - and instead focused on me, an editor. That is a violation of the maxim "comment on content, not contributors." He regularly comes up with edit summaries like this when there is no vandalism, no NPA, no edit war but his own. His previous edit war involved the Good Article Antoni Gaudi in which he betrayed an anti-Catalonia, pro-nationalist Spain bias and edit-warred to keep Catalalonia information out of said article. For this he was blocked 24 hours. I am not an expert in 16th century Spanish history, but to me this current dispute about the maps looks like more POV-pushing. It would be a logical conclusion at this point. Elizium23 (talk) 15:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Rockysantos ought to receive a warning for using loaded terms like "fascist" and for commenting on LTblb's motives instead of actions. That said, ANI is not a first resort. Per WP:NPA (emphasis mine), "Lesser personal attacks often result in a warning, and a request to refactor. If a pattern of lesser personal attacks continues despite the warning, escalating blocks may follow. However, administrators are cautioned that other resolutions are preferable to blocking for less-severe situations when it is unclear if the 'conduct severely disrupts the project'." The first step for you, LTblb, is to remind Rockysantos to focus on the content while you resolve your dispute. --Jprg1966  15:38, 7 November 2013 (UTC) (edit conflict)

I have again been accused of obsession, harrassment and non-neutrality by LTblb in a discussion that is supposed to be about content. His complaints about WP:NPA are very weak considering his own tactics. I request warnings and sanctions if his behavior continues. A WP:SPAIN topic-ban would be appropriate. Elizium23 (talk) 16:41, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Can I used this page to report the harassment obsessive that Elizium23 is committing against me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LTblb (talk • contribs) 16:56, 7 November 2013 (UTC) --LTblb (talk) 16:58, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

You can, but you are likely to find a WP: BOOMERANG, along with wasting everyone's time. Admiral Caius (talk) 17:14, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

The tone of your response I do not like at all, Admiral Caius, is arrogant, dismissive, and unworthy of an administrator.

The only reason I decided not to do it because my English is not remotely good to defend my ideas. --LTblb (talk) 17:24, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I am proud to detail my history with LTblb as I already have outlined upthread. Yes, I have been following his edit history. In contrast with a campaign of Wikihounding, I have only intervened where I saw disruption, which is quite often, since he was only blocked two months ago for his edit-war and this is yet another major incident; he does not appear to have learned his lesson. I have tracked his edits "carefully, and with good cause" to correct violations of Misplaced Pages policies. I have not overstepped the bounds of harrassment or hounding in any way. On the contrary, this is an editor who likes to take accusations leveled at himself and turn them around to the accuser, whether or not it is warranted. Elizium23 (talk) 17:18, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Yourself, with your own words is denouncing and evidencing the harassment against me, Elizium23. --LTblb (talk) 17:32, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

1. User:Admiral Caius is not an admin
2. In order to even claim harassment, you'd better read WP:HARASS, and provide very detailed links (WP:DIFF) or else it's considered WP:UNCIVIL
3. Are you 100% certain that your hands are "clean" in this situation? Are your actions 100% correct?

ES&L 17:37, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

My problem is my bad English, I can understand most, but it is much harder to explain.

Elizium23 harassed me, leaving messages on my talk page unjustified on numerous occasions, and reversing my edits without justification. That is very easy to check seeing the history. He has acknowledged himself.

Also, Elizium23 is involved in the project 'filo-Catalan' Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Catalan-speaking countries , for their supposed good intentions is completely compromised.

My editions were not malicious in any way, and I have resorted to the discussion page, as shown. Yes, my capacity and ability to explain my point of view is limited.--LTblb (talk) 17:57, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I am a member of the Catalan WikiProject. What are you trying to insinuate based on that fact? You are happy to discuss away as long as your edits stand, but you have not observed WP:BRD, you have edit-warred to keep your preferred version of the page until other editors, including myself, unwilling to sustain the edit-wars which you start, cease to revert you, even though you are on the wrong side of consensus. Elizium23 (talk) 18:02, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I try to show that this factor may be a cause of your intimidations and obsessive harassment against my edits, not because you believe that my edits were bad, but it may go against your own and intimate convictions or ideas. --LTblb (talk) 18:17, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

My membership in a Wikiproject is a factor in what way, exactly? Why would my membership cause me to do these alleged things to you (which I deny). (Footnote: I have joined WP:SPAIN (which LTblb has not) as my interest in Spain transcends the region of Catalonia. Elizium23 (talk) 18:36, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Not only yours memberships, but yours serious disturbance when I argued that Antoni Gaudí's nationality -who was born in 1852- was Spanish.--LTblb (talk) 18:49, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

This thread is not for discussion of content disputes which happened 2 months ago, but since you mention it, I will point out that you were blocked for edit-warring in that dispute, while nobody else was. I am the person who helped raise this article to GA status and so you'll perhaps excuse my personal feelings about it. In recognition of Spanish-Catalan nationalism issues and past edit-wars, there was a compromise phrasing in the lede paragraph which had a delicately worded balance that both sides seemed happy with, until you came in to upset that balance and erase Gaudi's Catalan identity from the article. I disagreed and the compromise was restored to the article after your block. Note to outsiders: LTblb chose September 11 to start this war, this date is known in Spain as the National Day of Catalonia. So his bias is clearly apparent. I have no pro-Catalan bias, as LTblb seems to be implying by his accusations against me; I am merely standing up for both points of view in a hotly contested nationalistic squabble. My primary and overriding objective is to uphold Misplaced Pages policies. LTblb's edits to the Gaudi article were in fact inviting future edit wars as Catalans came to reset the balance in their favor. Misplaced Pages seeks a middle ground here, but we need to seek low levels of dispute resolution in order to defuse these arguments before they become heated because nationalistic disputes are often so intractable that they must be resolved at WP:ARBCOM. If LTblb wishes to uphold Misplaced Pages policies then he will seek to resolve the current dispute by presenting WP:RS and upholding WP:V and WP:NPOV. I would suggest reading WP:No angry mastodons as a guide to calm dispute resolution. If LTblb feels that he must wage war against other editors then perhaps Misplaced Pages is not the best place for him right now. Elizium23 (talk) 19:26, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

For the last time: stop using "harassment" unless it meets the clear definition. Just because you disagree with a warning, does not make it either invalid, or harassment ES&L 19:21, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

It's absolutely false that I eliminated the Catalan identity of Antonio Gaudi article see here.

I will better read WP:HARASS, and try to provide very detailed links (WP:DIFF). Thank you. --LTblb (talk) 19:37, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

What's this edit for then? And you edit-warred with it, here and here and here (where you accused the others of WP:EW and then you were promptly, unilaterally blocked.) Elizium23 (talk) 19:42, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Only after you do this.--LTblb (talk) 19:51, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

LTblb you are the one attacking editors, not me, I suggest that if you feel your English is not correct, to not make anymore edits like the ones you do, as what you have edited is factually incorrect. As I have told you before and you have ignored. You seem to use your "My English is not remotely good to defend my ideas" when you are losing an argument......selective hearing of sorts and you are right they are ideas not facts.

The image you created of the Spanish Empire is factually 100% wrong, you have no references and will find none as it is wrong, you basically edited the image showing the Portuguese and Spanish Empires and made it all Spain's empire, doesn't change the fact it never was.

Me correcting your edits is not an personal attack, you are just factually wrong and I suspect you know it.

example of past encounter:-

Costa del sol article on the talk page:-

And you Rockysantos , is the least likely to speak, probably being a Portuguese who lives in Gibraltar, which is dedicated to improving tourist items of Portugal, like here or here, and come here, to enact defamatory information about the Costa del Sol, something that might be reportable .... Shame.--LTblb (talk) 18:45, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

My responce was

talk for the record facts are facts, I live in Spain but I fail to see why where you live or are from should matter, the information regarding the name is factual, this is an Encyclopedia and it's not meant to be a political propaganda platform for you to twist the truth to improve tourist numbers. Do you work for the Spanish tourist board? are you being paid to remove facts that you perceive are damaging to tourism?--Rockysantos (talk) 19:10, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

LTblb responded with:-

Rockysantos, your actions betray you, I will not answer to you, not worth it. And Valenciano, I already know your opinion about it, with which I am not agree at all .. So I will seek others opinions ...--LTblb (talk) 19:19, 11 August 2013

You didn't like the facts so on Valenciano's talk page you convinced him to enlarge the article to not be so focused on the costa del crime remark (article needed expanding I agree), (translated into English as LTblb wrote it in Spanish)

I warn you that after this his last contribution to the discussion I will be absolutely uncompromising , and no one except a librarian may amend Article onwards. Any minimal introduction of information will have to be carefully discussed and agreed , or will take the plank for breaking the rules of discussion and solicit the full protection of the article. - LTblb (talk) 10:25, 12 August 2013 ( UTC )

(notice how Costa del crime is still in the article LTblb?? Because it is a fact that it is known as such and as I said, it doesn't reflect the crime rate in the area but for the facts I stated......no crime figures exist as far as I can see also) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockysantos (talk • contribs) 19:46, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

How about this edit to Spain, where there were several representations of Catalan culture which LTblb removed? It is as if he did not want to acknowledge that Catalonia exists. Elizium23 (talk) 19:54, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Irom Chanu Sharmila

The BLP Irom Chanu Sharmila (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is a bit of a mess; but I am bringing it here specifically for additional review of one specific edit summary:

• 15:10, 7 November 2013: "request it stand for 24 hours to keep her alive then undo when some have had the chance to read her plea."

I had removed the content due to a lack of a WP:RS. Can others please take a look and weigh in on the appropriateness of the content? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:25, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

It is unsourced. Given that it contains negative assertions about at least one named individual, it must be reverted, under WP:BLP policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:33, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the policy is clear. It can even be an exception to 3RR. Content is easy to restore later if an individual can find an RS. --Jprg1966  15:44, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

K6ka

Inappropriate warnings;

IDK what's going on, but I think their contribs show someth "a bit weird" is going on.

Script fail, or someth. 88.104.29.216 (talk) 18:13, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand how these users received messages. Their talk pages don't even exist ... --Jprg1966  18:19, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what's wrong either. I don't warn users randomly, so it isn't a fault on my end. K6ka (talk) 18:22, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

No idea, but, you're making stuff like User talk:2620:0:862:1:91:198:174:67 so maybe just... stop and work out what's going on? Please, thx. 88.104.29.216 (talk) 18:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

But this revert left a message on the talk page on the very user who edited the page before him ... so what's the problem? --Jprg1966  18:33, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea why it is happening; all I can report is that I, and apparently several others, got 'warnings' inappropriately - as seen on User talk:2620:0:862:1:91:198:174:67. 88.104.29.216 (talk) 18:41, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

• I recall something like this happening a few days ago with different editors and it was certainly not something the editor did. AGF first. Let's look at one of the edits. At Honoré Daumier it wa an IPv6 editor. Judging from that page though, numerous IP editors are seeing a warning. This looks like a clear error on Misplaced Pages's part and not on K6ka. 209.255.230.32 (talk) 18:47, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
  • It is; it's a technical issue that's been discussed a bit on VPT already this week. Here's the thread; there might be others. It's been reported to Bugzilla, too. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:50, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Meanwhile, IPs are being wrongly warned. That might or might not be important, depending on ones POV. 88.104.29.216 (talk) 19:06, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

• Of course it's important, but I don't think it's particularly fair to be sanctioning people for a technical issue over which they have no control, and I don't think it's a good idea to tell people to stop reverting vandalism either, so IMO, we're kinda caught between a rock and a hard place. Your mileage may vary. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I guess we'll have to wait for the issue to be fixed. In the meantime, users that were incorrectly warned will just have to flood the talk pages of the editor that reverted vandalism :( K6ka (talk) 19:45, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

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