Misplaced Pages

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Trigger Happy

Dear Administrator:

I, like you, am an editor; I create articles and make edits. But, many, I am sure many other people out there, are tired, frustrated and angry with the behavior of many Administrators. I am certain that it is appallingly easy to revert an article, that someone has undoubtedly spent allot of time and effort writing. I have, in the past spent hours, researching, planning, writing, checking and revising an addition to an article only to have the whole lot deleted forever three minutes afterwards.

I know that deletion of material is essential in a free-to-edit encyclopedia, but if you see an article that someone has anonymously devoted their time to writing, why could you not revise it, change it or give a reason for you action? They deserve one.

I know all Administrators are not all Drunk-With-Power-Trigger-Happy-Nazis, many of you do an excellent job and you know who you are.

In closing: Create, don’t Destroy. Make a distinction between “what is right, and what is easy”. Be enriched and enrich others with the knowledge of other people.

And keep that finger off the trigger.

Dfrg.msc 01:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Seconded. You've expressed very concisely my dissatisfaction with a number of editors over the past, not only administrators. Obviously the admin who is most guilty of this is Tony Sidaway. THE KING 15:38, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • KING, consider this a warning: stop making personal attacks. Even when I'm not the subject myself, I still get rather tired of seeing you wage your campaign against Tony every opportunity you have. You've had numerous people tell you your conduct along these lines is unacceptable; now knock it off or be blocked. Postdlf 01:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• First, in addressing administrators you are addressing the wrong people. Anyone can do the edits that you are upset about, not just administrators. Second, I've taken a brief look at some of the contributions that you feel have been unfairly removed. They tend to sit in the area of literary criticism and the counter-arguments to your contributions seem to be 'please don't add your personal critique' or 'please no essays' or 'POV', that type of thing. When I first read your post here I thought "gee, someone is doing deep research, dotting i's and crossing t's and getting dumped on". As it is, your additions are on the borderline of acceptable encyclopedic content, sometimes crossing over that border; the surest way of ensuring the content 'sticks' is to contribute content that is notable, verifiable and supported by citations/references. You'll find that additions which have those three properties are very seldom subject to questionable removal, though they will be 'dry' compared to essays and critiques more appropriate for other venues. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• If THE KING is guilty of making personal attacks here, then the arbcom is guilty of the same thing everytime they make a ruling of someone with bad behavioir. And everyone who has ever left a {{test2}} message on talk page is also guilty of personal attacks. Saying that someone is not behaving appropriately is not a personal attack, especially when there is merit to the claim. Please review WP:NPA before you make accusations. Chuck 02:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  I agree with Chuck. Criticism of someone's actions, provided it remains civil, isn't a personal attack. Whether Tony is actually guilty of these offenses, I won't comment on. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with Chuck, and I agree that there are many people who abuse the ability to revert. In my experience it is almost always admins, or people who have enough experience to be admins, who do it. In some cases I see people who have lots they want to do, and rather than take their time to do them well, quicken their pace to the point of incompetence. Editors, and especially admins, should be reminded that they are not wikigods, but are equal editors. I myself have been told that admins are above regular editors, with a note I believe was "don't kid yourself" or something to that effect. I won't mention names, cause I've done it in more appropriate places enough. Fresheneesz 00:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• • You must be mis-remebering the exact quote (certainly possible), or it was told to you off-wiki, as a google search for site:wikipedia.org "don't kid yourself" comes up with nothing like that. I'd appreciate if you would "mention names", at least of whoever told you that, because it would be good to hear why they think that, and we can't if we don't know who they are. JesseW, the juggling janitor 08:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
• Please try to stay on topic here; it is quite easy to tumble off the reservation in short order. Being an avid contributor, I share the sentiments expressed by Dfrg.msc; as such, I would appreciate it if the conversation is centered around the initial concern which was expressed about a fortnight ago... --Folajimi 14:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps instituting something like a three vote rule on reverts? That would prevent unilateral action, and bad edits would still get reverted soon enough. RandomIdiot 14:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

A three-vote rule might work for other things, but that seems like a bit too much red tape for something as useful as a revert. For example, there are many people (I have been one) that did not understand the rules to Misplaced Pages and have made awful edits that simply needed to be removed immediately. If it had waited for three votes, some of the articles were sufficiently lacking in traffic that it would've taken weeks. Also revert wars would end with the side that had the most people on it, and just because more people argue for something doesn't mean it's correct. --Stellis 08:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Truer words have never been spoken; there is a redirect which I wanted to remove so I could create an actual article from scratch. This was over four months ago, and nothing new has occured in the interim. The additional bureaucracy is unnecessary. Folajimi 10:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Metric versus American/Imperial measurements

See also Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style#SI/Imperial measurements --Philip Baird Shearer 22:36, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Since this language's version of Misplaced Pages is the only to cover a country which does not use SI measurements (and in fact, a supermajority of native english speakers do not), it should be the policy of Misplaced Pages for all articles to include both metric and American units in all pages where measurements are used. If there is a page lacking in this, it should be noted by a template. R'son-W 07:14, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to very reluctantly agree. As horrible as the customary units are, Misplaced Pages can't change popular usage. On the other hand, I think that there are large categories of articles that do not need customary units (even if this proposal were implemented), such as those in astronomy. Ardric47 07:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with people adding adding a conversion, but I don't want a new template, as it would just be needless clutter. People wishing to add conversions, can easily do so themselves. I don't want to see hundreds (even thousands) of pages tagged with a new template. --Rob 07:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

To clarify what I said above, I'm agreeing with the policy to include both units, not to have a template. Ardric47 07:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Since when did the US not use metric units? What is habitual and what is actual policy are two different things entirely, and the US government deisgnated the SI system as the preferred one 18 full years ago. Further, go right ahead and tell me the speed of light in feet per second. We all know it moves at 300.000km/s, meaning 300.000.000m/s, meaning 300.000.000.000mm/s. Now, equally swiftly, without a calculator, tell me what this is in miles/sec, yards/sec, feet/sec and finally, let's not forget the smallest (and my, how accurate it is too) unit available; inches/sec. To put some more emphasis on the great accuracy of the CUs, how many inches is an average sinarapan? Over a span of 3 unit denominators, it's 12,5mm, 1,25 cm, and 0,125m. How many inches, feet and yards is this? My points are; 1: If you want to trawl all Misplaced Pages articles for occurances of units not provided in customary units, go right ahead. However, the sheer volume of Misplaced Pages, and the complete lack of logic in finding the lesser unit of what you currently have, means you've got a nice life's work cut out for you. Enjoy. 2: In an encyclopedia, accuracy - not the habits and quirks of one user group (which by the way happens to claim majority (which is equally false, as you clearly know, and that cleverly adjusting your statistics to show native English-speakers won't change the fact that most of the world still uses BrE, having been, as it were, under British rule or influence for longer than the US has been a country.)) - should be priority. --TVPR 08:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually it's 299,792,458m/s. Fagstein 17:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

That's not the only thing (s)he's wrong on. Actually, the US gov't has supported the metric system since La Convention du mètre. But, the government isn't the same as its people, and only a negligable minority of Americans want to switch to metric. Also, "everyone" knows that the speed of light is 300,000,000 m/s? One, I didn't know that (and you were wrong about that anyways), and I doubt if you stopped anyone on the street, in a metric country or in America and said, "Hey! What's the speed of light?" I doubt they could respond. But that's beside the point. No, Americans don't use the metric system. R'son-W 00:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The term "American units" is a misnomer. Most British people still use them in everyday usage as well, despite Britain being "officially" (and generally reluctantly) metric. And many things in the UK, including our roadsigns, are still officially in imperial units (it's actually illegal to use only metric units on roadsigns), so let's not have any false claims that it's only the United States that uses these units. -- Necrothesp 09:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Does Britan use US customary units? I realize they're similar, if not identical, but still. Starting 3 years from now, any product marked with non-SI units will be banned from import into the EU. That ought to help. --TVPR 09:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The one thing Britain is is confused. I measure distance in mm, cm, m and mile... However, back to the point - Britain is very much a metric country, imperial units have not been taught at school for decades. The mile and pint really are the last remaining official uses...

Imperial units are taught in British schools, including conversions between metric and imperial. I know because I have taught it, and it is still on the National Curriculum. Captainj 21:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

However the Imperial units in Britain are different to "American units". Our pint isn't your pint (20 vs 16 fl oz), our gallon isn't yours, our ton isn't yours... Get the point? If not take a read of Comparison of the Imperial and U.S. customary systems/wangi 09:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Britain, as I said, is officially metric. But in practice it is not, even for those (like myself) who were taught metric units at school, but wouldn't dream of using them unless forced (the only people I've ever heard using metric measurements in day-to-day life have been scientists). Those who claim otherwise are usually evangelical (and rather delusional) metric fans who don't want to accept that their beloved system isn't popular. Also note that Imperial measurements of length, area and basic weight (the ounce and pound) are identical to the American. My main point, however, was not to claim that British and American systems were identical (although some parts of it are), but to counter the arguments that the United States is the only country that retains non-metric measurements. -- Necrothesp 10:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Well I guess It's personal/generation issue. I'd just like to make it known we're not all imperial unit monkeys ;) As for being evangelical or delusional, I personally couldn't care - I'd measure my height in feet and inches; my weigth in kilos; the distance to my house in miles; the size of a room to the nearest unit (e.g. 8ft x 6m); liquids in litres, unless I'm drinking a pint; and when shopping metric... /wangi 10:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm British. I accept that my beloved metric system (?) isn't popular in Britain. I think in the metric system. If I add some figures to an article, I'm not going to bother with non-metric units. If somebody wants to add a non-metric "translation", that won't bother me. If on the other hand somebody wants to give priority to his or her beloved antique metrology, thereby relegating my own beloved metrology to parentheses, I shall get annoyed. But of course I mustn't show my annoyance, must I? -- Hoary 11:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm always amused when people describe the Imperial system as an antique while favouring a system developed in the 18th century! -- Necrothesp 11:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Point taken. Me, I'm amused when the more antique mishmash is referred to as the "Imperial system". But then I reflect that there's some truth to it, as we're all under pax (?) Americana these days. -- Hoary 12:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Blah, common sense should prevail. We don't need Imperial units (or US Standard for that matter) in all articles, anything science related should be in SI, anything else should be in whatever people decide on the page. I'm 22 and from the UK, and I still use feet/inches, pints, stone etc. The decision of what to include should be worked out on article talk pages, but I would strongly object to a blanket policy of having Imperial or US Standard in parentheses. - FrancisTyers 22:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Units should be dealt with on the WikiProject level. A universal policy could never account for all the idiosyncracies you get in specialized fields. Melchoir 10:08, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I think all articles should use metric. The English WP is available to billions of English speakers around the world, often speaking English as a second language. SI is international - that is its point. If people would like to add their own local units too (particularly when referring to local issues), I won't mind that. Stephen B Streater 12:33, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

How about:

Where the original form of a measurement is known it should be specified first with conversions in brackets. Where the original form is not known and there are no other overriding considerations (e.g. local conventions in local articles) metric should be placed first with the conversions in brackets. Ambiguous units like the ton and the gallon should be avoided where possible and when they are included they should always be clarified.

-- Plugwash 13:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Plugwash 13:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

All articles should use both metric and American units (in the case of ambiguous units such as gallons, clearly designated as being American if you can't use a more commonly-used non-SI unit). This provides maximum information with minimum clutter. Many of our readers are not familiar enough with the metric system to understand units given only in metric, and many (probably most) are not familiar enough with American units to understand units given only in American units. What governments say is completely irrelevant; it's our readers that we're here to serve.

As for specialized fields, Misplaced Pages serves a general audience, not just specialists. Even if American physicists always use the metric system for physics, other Americans/Brits/Canadians/etc. (almost no former British colonies are fully converted to SI) will also want to read and understand the article.

The only exception to this rule is when the units involved are so ridiculously beyond what we use in everyday life that normal units are insufficient or the differences are negligible; our readers don't need to be told that 1.41679 × 10 K equals 2.55022 × 10 °F, or that 130 light years equals 7.6427 × 10 miles—nothing is gained in comprehensibility from that. But the density of mercury, that's something that should be in both metric and American/imperial units. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, a number of former British colonies such as India (AFAIK), Malaysia, Singapore are IMHO more or less fully converted to SI. What non-SI usage exists is predominantly not imperial either. I expect it's the same in other African former colonies as well (not sure about South Africa). Even here in NZ (although it'd difficult to say since I spent most of my life in Malaysia and I'm a scientist) I would say we're mostly metric. True the older generation may still prefer imperial but by and large, I would say the younger generation uses metric almost exclusively. Perhaps body weight and height might be one exception although even that probably not that great (common) an exception. I believe Australia is similar as well. Also, significantly I expect you're far more likely to find someone who understand metric in most instances but not imperial then someone who understand imperial but not metric. And as others have point out, our readers likely includes a very large number of non native English speakers (such as many of the Indians, Malaysian, Singaporeans that I pointed out as well as Chinese, French, Spaniards etc etc). These by and large will understand SI but not imperial. I'm not rallying against the inclusion if imperial but simply pointing out that SI in fact probably has much more merit then imperial and SI are probably preferred by most of our readers. Nil Einne 04:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

By "fully converted to SI" I meant that generally imperial units of some type remain in use at least in certain limited contexts (such as height and weight, or of course older people). I certainly agree SI would be the preferable system if we had to use only one (Americans are taught SI in school, so most could probably do conversions with some thought), but thankfully we don't. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 23:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Two points. I reinforce the plea that if a unit like the pint (which differs between the US and other countries) is used, it should be explained which is meant, ideally with a conversion into the other sort. And there is often more than one metric unit. The density of mercury is about 13.6 grammes (grams?) per cubic centimetre in cgs units and 13,600 kilogrammes per cubic metre in SI units; probably, most people would prefer the former, although scientists usually use SI. The official unit astronomers use to measure distances to stars is the parsec, although common usage prefers the light year; neither is strictly an SI unit. Runcorn 19:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd love to use American or Imperial units but they get so complex once you get beyond basic stuff - working with measurements trying to work out if they are eights or twelths, long or short tons, and how many pints to the quart anyway? Not to mention fathams and furlongs, bushels and chains. But I'm an adult, and most of the time I've got a fair idea what people are talking about. If I want to know what the exact converion is, I'll pull out the calculator. I can cope with whatever anyone writes. One point though. English is the international language with probably more ESL speakers than native speakers. And SI is the international system of measurement. --Michael Johnson 14:35, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the preceding discussion is well meaning, but short on facts. When people say things like "most of our readers" I wonder where the numbers are to back up these claims. Note that we have guidelines on this topic at Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Scientific style and Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Units of measurement which say sometimes SI units are mandatory and that conversions should not be removed. If you want to add conversions to articles, I suggest adding them as you find them or organizing a wikiproject to do so. -- cmh 15:39, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Just two points to add: all packaged goods in Britain are labelled in metric, although loose goods can be ordered in Imperial. I drink pints of beer but buy milk in litres, I think in Fahrenheit, but everybody else I know thinks in Celsius. Secondly, as Michal Johnson implies, Wiki En probably has a large ESL readership. In fact judging by many of the contributions, Wiki En is frequently written by non-native speakers (look at any article concerning a non-English speaking country). Recipe books can manage multiple measurements, why limit Wiki En to one continent?

The presumption that SI units are not widely used in the USA really applies to the household. Many industries have converted to SI, especially industries engaged in international trade. On the other hand, there is one area of high technology where inches are in common use, computer printers, with terms such as dots per inch and pixels per inch. Gerry Ashton 21:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that in every place it is relevant that we should use both metric and American measurements. Metric may be used in the majority of the world, but a large percentage of people on the English Misplaced Pages are from the United States and have no sense of scale in the metric system, no matter how much they see it in their life. Foreign articles as well as American articles should use it. Finding conversion calculators online is ridiculously easy, so look one up, convert the two measurements, and put it into the article. And the wide availability of these things shouldn't be an excuse not to put them on here, as this is an encyclopedia and should be as NPOV as possible, and should accomodate as many people as possible. I don't want to look up a conversion calculator every time I see "163 kilometers" or "26 degrees Celsius" or whatever. I want to be able to know what the American measurement right there, and if I used metric measurements and it only had Imperial on the page, I would want to see the Metric conversion. bob rulz 23:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that Misplaced Pages should explicitly favor metric measurements, as they are universal and (despite what Bob says) more easily understood and converted. As has been pointed out, there are significant divergences within US/Imperial units, in particular liquid measurement, but also the long/short ton, and not all units are widely understood (stone, furlong). I'd have no objection to customary units being given alongside metric ones.  ProhibitOnions  11:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem with favoring any one system of measurements over another is that no single system is appropriate for all possible topics. The dimensions to Noah's Ark are specified in cubits, Hadrian's Wall used roman miles to space its milecastles, the National Maximum Speed Limit is specified in Miles per hour, and there is no Jules Verne book titled 111200 Kilometers Under the Sea. Other articles depend on sources that use acres, fathoms, hands, li, or picas. Trying to shoehorn these dimensions into SI units is not only elitist, but in many cases will violate Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. Instead of forcing everything into a single system, each article needing to list some type of measurement should use a measurement appropriate to the subject's nature, place, and time in history. It is only when this is done that conversions to aid the reader should be added. --Allen3  13:58, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

No, this is the same anti-metric argument given by people who think we'd have to sing "I'd walk 1,609,300 kilometers for one of your smiles"... Of course, articles should use non-metric units if the article is a) about those units b) about something that frequently uses non-metric units (such as, say, pipe widths, or certain sports, although metric equivalents should be given), or c) uses historic material or direct quotations that refer to such units. But if none of these criteria are met, then metric units should be the primary ones used.  ProhibitOnions  22:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Your statement that metric units are "more easily understood" is quite simply wrong when it comes to a large percentage of our readers. Americans, as well as to a substantially lesser extent Brits/Canadians/Australians, do not understand metric units as well as they understand imperial units. You were born in Britain and currently live in Germany; if you were born and lived in America, you would not think metric units are more easily understood. The only thing that's easily understood by all our readers is metric plus imperial, and that's why we should always use that. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 04:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I'm a US citizen, and know well how "confusing" many Americans wrongly assume the metric system to be. However, starting from a position of unfamiliarity, metric units are more easily understood, as they are far more logical, are interrelated, and are based on multiples of ten, and are likely to be understood by a far greater number of the billion or so fluent speakers of English, including a good number of educated Americans. (Thanks for reading my biography, but I never make it clear how long I've lived anywhere. It's a little like the userbox debate.)  ProhibitOnions  08:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

In the UK, we are increasingly using metric units. Food has to be sold in metric units now, except in important cases (eg of beer). Petrol (!) is sold in litres. Energy is measured in kW hours. However, precious metal are still in $/Troy Oz. Are people in the US becoming increasingly metric as they get more internationalised? Stephen B Streater 08:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

There are exactly two metric units in everyday usage in the US: multi-serving bottles of soda are sold in liters, and electricity is measured in kilowatt-hours. Everything else is US Customary. --Carnildo 09:50, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

A large reason for the shift in the UK is due to European Economic Community's packaging regulations. Although European trade regulations have some influence on American companies (it's easier to make one package that is salable both in the EU and in the US, and the EU's regulations are more strict), the influence is not nearly so strong as in the UK. — Saxifrage ✎ 05:33, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

American packaging regulations mandate metric units alongside non-metric units. See Fair Packaging and Labeling Act and the US government fact sheet. bobblewik 00:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget that vast numbers of British people still prefer traditional units, and in many cases traditional units are generally used even by young British people, eg human heights in feet and inches and speeds in miles per hour. To a great degree SI has been imposed against the will of the British public, but Misplaced Pages is a public resource and does not have to defer to official dictat. "English as she is spoke" is just as valid as "English as Big Brother would have it spoke". Piccadilly 18:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I strongly agree that SI and imperial units should be used alongside one another. This is simply for the benefit of those people who are not able to understand both systems easily, and there are a great deal of these. Many Canadians, for example, particularly the younger generation, associate no particular meaning with Faernheit temperatures. However, many Americans I have communicated with are extremely confused when I report thirty-five degrees Celcius as boiling hot, thinking it quite near the freezing point of water. Neither system is at all universal and therefore both should be used. Falcon 22:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Both systems, no tag. Conversion tools are widely available; use them. Don't tag problems; fix them. John Reid 06:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me a similar issue occured with users preferred date format. In this case Misplaced Pages automatically displays the date in the users preferred format (assuming the date is wikified). Could we do something similar here. Set everything up in metric but use templates (or something) to either do the coversion on the fly or to provide a link to a page that gave the conversions.--MarkS (talk) 17:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Given that Misplaced Pages prohibits original research, most "measurements", I would think, would be taken out of other published sources. In which case, the appropriate thing to do is to provide them in the units in which they were originally presented--if the source includes SI units, so should the Misplaced Pages article, and likewise for the "traditional" units. Go ahead and provide conversions, but the conversion should be listed second and it should be clearly indicated that it is a conversion performed by Misplaced Pages editors. (If a source includes a measurement in multiple systems, then Misplaced Pages should take both measurements from the source).

Given that any measurement will have an uncertainty, and that unit conversions will often add to that uncertainty (the alternative is reporting the conversion with more significant digits than is warranted), publication of the unconverted values is key.

One place which might warrant presenting converted units ahead of unconverted units is the case where measurements from different sources (in different systems, and/or with different uncertainties) are compiled and aggregated into a single Misplaced Pages article. Displaying them with the same units, for presentation purposes, is appropriate. However, it should be obvious when conversions occur.

--EngineerScotty 17:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Without intending any disrespect, I'd suggest you don't fully understand what "original research" was intended to apply to. I find the largest problem among many Wiki-Police is not comprehending the intent of rules and regulations rather than the practical applications. On the other hand, I agree with using the original measurements (ie distances given in yards rather than metres when discussing, say, First World War battles) but the conversion of units from one system to another hardly constitutes "original research." Michael Dorosh 21:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

You might have misunderstood what I meant by "original research". I'm not suggesting that multiplying inches by 2.54 to arrive at centimeters constitutes "research" (and therefore Misplaced Pages editors ought to refrain from doing such); I'm merely observing that most quantities reported in Misplaced Pages are (per WP:NOR) necessarily taken from some other source; and suggesting that the units present in the original source ought to be preserved. I'm all for adding conversions for the benefit of the reader (in both directions, when appropriate). Quantities which aren't taken from external sources (or trivially derived from other sources, or patently obvious) would need to be justified as to their origins. Measurements taken by a Misplaced Pages editor clearly would be OR; calculations performed on existing data to derive new data may or may not be. As to what level of calculation on the part of an editor constitutes "research", I don't know. Certainly, units conversion, simple averages, and other stuff like that doesn't rise to the level of "research", though more advanced statistcal analyses of raw data, especially from disparate data sets, might well be. --EngineerScotty 17:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Just have to throw in my 2 cents: I learned the speed of light on the Imperial system, and it's easier to remember it in six digits rather than nine. I have to start doing lots of multiplication when I convert it to km/h, since all I remember 186,282 miles per second. I'd say, don't use a template, but convert when you see it so that both systems are in evidence. Sacxpert 08:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Userbox collectors

This is the 2nd time I run into a case of this. Can't remember the first user. But I would likt to mention User talk:Wootking. It seems this person is adding himself to any type of WikiProject he can find, and collecting userboxes of projects and other UBX. However he has not made ONE single edit to an article. His account was created only 2 weeks ago. Now the fact that he collects userboxes i can care less about, but the fact that he is adding himself to all those WikiProjects is annoying, in that it clutters up the Project. It's not a real problem, but I was wondering if other people have seen similar problems lately. It almost seems like a bot (considering the bad formatting of the page). - The DJ 14:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• • Not to mention that the user also claims to have six batchelor's degrees, five masters', a doctorate and a law degree, and is studying medicine. Completely bogus, all of it. Misplaced Pages is being invaded by the mentally ill, the stupid, and the sociopathic. \ Fnarf999 \ talk \ contribs \ 20:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I've not seen this particular problem. From looking at this user's page and writings, it appears that he may actually think he has to sign up as a participant in a WikiProject to make use of the articles. He mentions his research and doesn't generally seem to be going anything in bad faith. This may just be an opportunity for communication and understanding. Aguerriero (talk) 22:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe he's the Walter Mitty type. ♥ Her Pegship♥ 03:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Looks completely harmless to me, unless it's significantly increasing server load.--Runcorn 19:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

he collects userboxes i can care less about, why do you care whether they collect them or not? What's it to you? Markb 13:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

"Avoid needless interference" Stencil it on your wall, if necessary. --Wetman 15:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Tell him that Misplaced Pages is for people to cotribute to writing an encyclopedia, not for lamez0r userbox hogging. -- Миборовский 20:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

set minimum age limits

Some users are so young they have not been around long enough to be able to accurately perceive the short or long term consequences of their actions. Therefore I think a minimum age limit needs to be set for users and sysops and bureaucrats, etc. so we do not have to waste so much time having to educate them on our positions that have years and years of experience behind them like the portion of an iceberg below the surface. ...IMHO (Talk) 05:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Um, no. "Not been around long enough to be accurately perceieve the short of long term consequences of their actions"? That's a massive and absurd overgeneralisation.--Sean Black 06:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Not that massive and not that absurd, I should think. --LucVerhelst 07:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It is true that some young people have difficulty perceiving consequences, however we already require people to demonstrate suitability for sysops, etc., so why is this a problem? As for users, there are vandals at every age and people with good intentions at every age, so again, what's the problem? Brian Jason Drake 06:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Moreover, how would you institute such a thing? Based on having a credit card? There would be no other way to enforce it. Not even worth considering IMO due to the impossibility of implementing it.Michael Dorosh 06:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I can think of one user who frankly we would be better off without. He's in elementary school and pretty much incapable of any real contributions (his grammar, spelling, et al are on an elementary level, understandably). He does a lot of goofing off and needs a bit of babysitting ... literally, babysitting. He's not violating any particular policies but an age limit would help to remove kids like him. --Cyde↔Weys 06:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

And I'm sure one can come up with a long list of people of advanced age who have also shown themselves to be unable or unwilling to make productive contributions here. What would be the point? *Dan T.* 14:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The most exceptionally annoying and time-wasting contributors I can think of offhand have been middle-aged... Shimgray | talk | 15:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

How would you verify a person's age? Blaise Joshua 07:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

We've had respected members of the community at least as young as 13, so any bar would seem to need to be lower than that, at which point there is almost no one left to exclude. Which is not to say that I would want to anyway. I welcome any child who can make productive contributions. Dragons flight 07:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I would go so far as to say that it is one of the wonders of the modern Internet that people so young that you'd never trust them face-to-face can be judged on their merits and actions alone. We are enabling these people to take responsibility for something that matters. If a minimum age limit were set for Misplaced Pages, I would quit the project in protest. Besides, it's technically infeasible. Deco 08:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Definitely a non-starter for users. Firstly, it's absolutely unenforceable. Secondly, each editor and indeed each contribution can be assessed on his/her/its merits. I've seen rubbish from people who seem to be mature adults. Admins and bureaucrats are different, but it would require careful identity checks to enforce, and again being 18 or 21 is no proof that you are mature and sensible.--Runcorn 08:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Strong agree. We've had very young respected admins (I've actually been surprised when I found out their age), and we've had fully grown and elderly assholesnegatively productive users. Moreover, if we want to collect all the world's knowledge, a kid's perspective can be rather useful, I think. --Stephan Schulz 08:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Not that this should have any weight relevant to our goals on Misplaced Pages, but allowing youth to take responsibility and contribute to projects in society gives them a stake in society and helps build good character and habits to support it. Rather than hiding from the destructive actions of a portion of irresponsible children, we should engage as many as we can in our project, because in the end it will do both our project and those involved a lot of good. If we aim to help society with our project, the more people that have a stake in our project, the better off we are, even if we have to deal with some roughness along the way. --Improv 14:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear people from Misplaced Pages,

I wrote an e-book about the War in Yogoslavia and some of the historical facts exposed in the book ( may be visited at www.peev.org ) I wanted to share with you. I started the edition on the Bosnian page, and I gave the historical facts about the Vatican implications at the Balkans (also to see im my e-book), but there is a 16-years old boy who accused me for vandalization ?! Please, I want that my message be re-examend by the people who knows and loves history and not by those who have a hobbis like this 16-years old boy. And I want to hear excuse, because I wrote you with all my respect and love. I just wanted to share the knowledge with you...nothing else..

Dr. med. Jasmina Peev —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peev (talk • contribs) .

You raise various issues here, but I'll stick to the accusation of vandalism. A 16 year old or a hobbyist is no more or less eligible to accuse you of vandalism (a serious charge, of course) than is a 56 year old or a historian. If you specify the diff (or at least the article) in question, then somebody here will take a look at the accusation and judge it on its merits (if any). -- Hoary 14:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It appears Peev is peeved that this nonsense/attack/vandalism was reverted, and then a (self identified) 16 year old left a message on the user's talk page properly warning them to stop vandalizing, and gave some constructive advice on how to participate. That probably shows the value of having a 16 year old. --Rob 14:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

A 16-year-old who cleans up vandalism is certainly more useful to this project than an older person who creates it. *Dan T.* 14:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• There are going to be no age limits on Misplaced Pages. --Osbus 15:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I would have been an amazing contributor if Misplaced Pages had existed when I was a kid =). I oppose any general criterion to exclude editors; it should always be done on a case-by-case basis. Ardric47 23:36, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• There are numerous examples of flame wars involving apparently middle-aged adults. Likewise, there are teenagers who contribute much to the project, especially technically. --JChap 03:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

This question has me wondering... for US users, doesn't COPPA prevent anyone under the age of 13 from posting on a wiki? It provides the same sort of communication capabilities that any message board would, and PhpBB "requires" US users to be over 13 to register in compliance with COPPA. Of course, that legislation is a terrible piece of crap, and I wouldn't consider advocating that WikiMedia follow it, but... just wondering. ~ Booya 00:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Most forums require an email address, which could be considered personally identifiable information. Misplaced Pages doesn't require you to provide any information at all to edit. --Carnildo 07:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

COPPA does not apply to nonprofits such as the Wikimedia Foundation. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 00:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• Although it is in theory possibly easier to prevent people who are exceptionally immature from editing in Misplaced Pages, this is neither practical nor really justifiable. The latter is very simply because Misplaced Pages is no exclusive community. The former is because there is no real direct correlation between an editor's age and their intelligence, capability, or comprehension of consequences. Surely you are aware of the number of adult criminals, or perhaps terrorists? I, for example, am only 16 years of age. Clearly my intellect is greater than some absurd commonly-held stereotypes, most particularly that of the essentially selfish, oblivious, loudmouthed, aggressive brute. I strongly feel that the same should go for any administrative priveleges regardless of magnitude: these are decided on merit. If someone is obviously lacking the maturity necessary for such a position, regardless of age, as much will show up quite clearly to those who have interacted or observed that user. It may be overly idealistic of me, but I don't think that it is in anyone's interest to destroy what ought to be a community of equals by adding ageist policies which restrict users in any way due in any part to their age. Falcon 20:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

As much as I'd like some of the more childish users to be kept from editing, it's an unfeasable proposal that would only hurt the project by removing decent contributors, such as Falcon here. It's about as stupid as any webpage that asks if someone is above above a certain age, as if that person would somehow be prevented from lying to the page. There's no way to verify someone's age over the internet unless you're charging them for access, and Misplaced Pages certainly isn't going to be doing that any time soon. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 20:39, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Childish does not = child. I would argue that there are just as many childish and idiotic 30 or 40 year olds, as 12 and 13 year olds. Perhaps that statement is more for rhetorical effect, but my point is that children can be good contributors, and banning them is just a way to discourage people from comming back. My roommate for example thinks all of you are pompous assholes, so he refuses to edit! Fresheneesz 00:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought this was an OPEN project, allowing EVERYONE to contribute. marc4991

• I think that the problems that "Age Limits" tries to address are more significantly related to mental maturity rather than physical maturity. We have some excellent contributors here who won't be able to drive legally for several years...and some editors who are old enough to vote but couldn't be trusted with a goldfish, much less an encyclopedia. The good ones get better, the bad ones get bored and drift away. IMHO, of course (YMMV) Doc Tropics 04:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Are fonts notable?

I recently tagged Everson Mono Unicode for deletion per WP:NOT, writing "Misplaced Pages is not a font catalog". Should it be? Realistically, the trouble with putting fonts into Misplaced Pages is that you probably can't show font samples without having copyright problems, and a font catalog without font samples is worthless. --John Nagle 05:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm Michael Everson and I didn't know that Tarikash had put up an article about my font until today. There are a number of other Unicode fonts which do have articles (Arial Unicode MS and Gentium for instance), also adding mine wasn't a new sin by any means. I'll be happy to improve the article, if you'll remove the tag for deletion. As far as notability goes, Everson Mono was one of the first fonts to try to have a large repertoire of characters, and in glorious monowidth. Evertype 07:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

If the font author will add an image with font samples, it will probably be an article worth keeping. --John Nagle 07:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not necessary for the font author to make such an image, in fairness; any user of the font could do so. Shall we take this up on the article's Talk page? Evertype 07:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Scalar font samples would be legal to use in the United States, because of the rather insane fact that typefaces are uncopyrightable here. (Vector-formatted fonts may be different.) Fonts can, of course, be encyclopedia-worthy (I don't think anyone argues Times New Roman shouldn't exist); as an opponent of notability standards, I wouldn't have much problem with even non-notable fonts having well-written and -sourced articles here. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 07:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely! Of course; many fonts are worthy of articles. This is a question that could only be raised in an unthinking, teevee age. Fonts are the soul of the printed word. It is only in this brief time we now are forced to spend so much time staring at text on low-resolution screens that render fine type so poorly. Our fathers read and respected the word printed lovingly on paper; our sons will read from high-resolution screens. Only our debased generation is ignorant of the immortal beauty of fine typography. John Reid 06:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

If a particular font is not notable itself, surely it is a fit component of an article on fonts, or fonts of a particular sort. Midgley 21:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

People with knowledge and opinions on fonts can come to a consensus on whether a particular font merits an article. What's the problem? patsw 01:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Interwiki references inline

There are a few articles (most likely translated) that include an inline 'see also' or 'references' link to other language Wikipedias, for example François Cavanna, Wolfgang Schäuble, and Peter Harry Carstensen. Normally I'd just remove them per WP:ASR, but discussion on the talk page of one of those articles suggests that they serve a useful function. I can't find any specific policy information on the appropriateness of these links (specifically as it relates to ethics of citation and translation procedure), but hopefully someone here can clarify this point. Ziggurat 21:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

These actually aren't really self references - they're linking a Misplaced Pages as a source or reference, which I should hope is something we don't mind people doing. Of course it shouldn't be their only source or reference, ideally, or given excessive weight over other references. It's still seemingly redundant though, when there's already software support for specialized interwiki links with a standard interface. Deco 23:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, WP:RS indicates that "Misplaced Pages itself does not currently meet the reliability guidelines." On the other hand, there's also a section that says "Where editors use their own English translation of a non-English source as a quote in an article, there should be clear citation of the foreign-language original, so that readers can check what the original source said and the accuracy of the translation." Whether that applies to translated Misplaced Pages articles, I dunno... Ziggurat 00:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I support this kind of links. We should give the source of translations in a way that is as obvious as possible, to not violate the original-language authors' copyright. Kusma (討論) 00:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think interwiki links should still be kept in their place. Crediting the original language version is better done in an edit summary. Misplaced Pages shouldn't be its own source, and any mere translation from another Misplaced Pages article should be seen as temporary. It needs, sooner or later, to be checked with reliable sources. I have seen articles translated into English which were uncited and not that great in their original version (heck, I've probably done it myself a couple of times), but this should not be seen as a permanent solution. At some point every language version of an article has to become directly reliant on external sources; at least for the English Misplaced Pages, where we have people reading a large variety of languages, that shouldn't really be a problem. Otherwise we risk ending up with circularity, where different language versions are "improved" based on the assumption that another version is better. People should not assume that the "native" version of an article is correct just because the authors presumably have access to good sources – far too often the good, native sources haven't actually been used. Tupsharru 01:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

As a minimum, the translation can surely copy over the reference list from the original. --Runcorn 21:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

If an article is present in two languages, couldn't the other language's article be referred to in a "further information" or a "see also" section? This would prevent circularity because it would allow each article to be developed independently. Yet it would allow a reader who uses both languages to read (or edit) both sets of information. Some topics are viewed quite differently in different areas of our globe. Terryeo 16:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

There are interlanguage links at the left of every page that has equivalents in other languages, below the toolbox. This page, for instance, is linked to pages on the ko, zh, and zh-yue wikis. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 04:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Left-Right dichotomy

Does the adherence to the Left-Right dichotomy constitute any POV on part of wikipedia editors? Clearly there have been alternatives posed, such as a 2D political compass or other variants. Since wikipedia editors cannot ascertain truth to any of these variants, but only verify that they indeed exist, the use of the left-right dichotomy is simply biased. Intangible 05:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Whatever is best at conveying the necessary information to the reader should be used. "Left" and "right" are statistical realities; social, fiscal, economic, and environmental conservatism are linked, say, as are their liberal counterparts. If a political party, say, tends to support 1) imposition of traditional moral standards, 2) a free-market economy, 3) comparatively low levels of civil liberty, and 4) comparatively great funding and use of military forces, it's simplest and most succinct to summarize it as being "conservative" or "right-wing". If something or someone doesn't neatly fit the mold, another term (such as "libertarian", say) should preferably be used.

If it's relevant to note correlations with political affiliation in an article, that would be fine too; "proponents of measures designed to counteract global warming are disproportionately liberal" would be a succinct way of saying "those who support measures designed to counteract global warming disproportionately support such goals as reduced military spending, international aid, strong government regulation of the economy, and the securement of civil liberties". The terms are pretty well understood and not at all POV, although they may not always be useful. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 08:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not against using labels such as conservative, libertarian, royalist or any of that. My criticism is more against the ambiguous definitions present in right-wing or left-wing. How is a wikilink to those articles NPOV if the definitions set forth in those articles contradict each other? Intangible 17:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you'd get a better response regarding this concern on Talk:Right-wing politics and Talk:Left-wing politics. Deco 20:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll give an example: "Frederic Bastiat is a left-wing politican." Intangible 21:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The labels are usually neutral because they're pretty vague. I don't think much of anyone would dispute that Ralph Nader is left-wing, say. If people might object to the label, it shouldn't be used; Dennis Kucinich should be described as libertarian, not right-wing. The definitions are ambiguous, but that doesn't make them worthless. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 23:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It is essential that any categorization is not ambiguous. Saying that Ralph Nader is a left-wing politician would conflict with saying that Frederic Bastiat is a left-wing politican. Actually they are pretty much each others opposites. Although the addage can correct when looking at each individual article when no wikilink is used. This all of course is easily avoided by saying that Ralph Nader is a green politican and saying that Frederic Bastiat is a classical liberal politician. This is what all wikipedia editors should do. Intangible 04:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, fair point. More specific characterizations are generally available. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Certainly in British politics, left and right wing are getting increasingly muddled. Some people feel that the Labout (or New Labour) Party is beginning to be to the right of the Conservative Party in some respects. Also, many policies are completely outside the simple left-right continuum; some right-wingers oppose immigration on "Keep British values" grounds, while others support it on free market grounds. --Runcorn 21:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

In some countries, though, it's very different; in France for example, the terms "la gauche" (the Left) and "la droite" (the Right) are extremely common in news reporting, common discourse, and parliamentary debate; politicians are identified as being on the Left or Right as often, sometimes more often, than as being a member of a particular political party. Most politicians openly identify themselves as "right-wing" or "left-wing," whereas this is relatively rare in the UK or the U.S. I believe France's situation also holds for countries like Spain and Italy. My point is that this sort of thing should be settled on a case-by-case basis rather than by setting a universal policy; calling Ségolène Royal or Romano Prodi a "centre-left" politician is more justified than applying the term to Hillary Clinton or Tony Blair. Andrew Levine 00:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

How about defining people based on how they define their opponents? Folajimi 00:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

How to enter measurements

Does anyone know of any previous discussion which lead to a consensus of how to state measurements. I've seen it done many ways. It seems that the majority of articles use the metric system first (either meters or metres) and then have English units in parenthesis. I am also aware of articles having the cited measurement first and a mathematically converted measurement second in parenthesis. I'm sorry R'son-W did not like the comment on his talk page. I was truly trying to find out if there has been previous discussion on this topic. -- Samuel Wantman 09:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Use the system provided by the source you are citing as the primary measure, then provide a conversion in parentheses if desirable. This ensures that the first figure given is the most accurate representation of the source being referenced. Christopher Parham (talk) 06:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Qualifiers

Currently, there is a serious discussion going on about the use of qualifiers in titles, especially (epithet) after various political loaden terms, such as:

• Islamofascism (epithet)
• Wall of shame (epithet)
• Israeli apartheid (epithet)

I do not yet have an opinion about it myself, but I would like neutral input from editors and admins not involved in those pages on whether these qualifiers violate WP:NPOV. Thanks. -- Kim van der Linde 03:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation policy specifies that qualifiers should not be used except where necessary for disambiguation or clarity. We have plenty of articles with names offensive to their subjects - if it's the common name, that's what we use, and they really just have to live with it. Deco 17:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Word. Islamofascism (epithet) has already been moved back to its correct title, Islamofascism. The others, I expect, will follow soon as well. -Silence 18:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd have said that all these violate NPOV. --Runcorn 21:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Parenthetical qualifiers should not typically be used except for disambiguation. It's unambiguous, so leave it at the correct title. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

See the page Misplaced Pages:Naming_conventions_(slogans). This page is inactive and kept for historical reasons, but there was discussion about the idea (and I can't even figure out from it what the final decision on the subject was, if there was any). I think there's some support for using qualifiers in such cases. Ken Arromdee 16:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a slave to Google

I have seen the arguement so many times for a title, or even a word, be used over naming conventions because of the Google hits. What does Google hits have to do with Misplaced Pages and its policies? As far as I know Misplaced Pages is an independent entity from Google. It doesn't matter if the American spelling gets a billion hits while British spelling only gets a quarter billion. Misplaced Pages does not need to be shackled to Google searches. Google searches should get shackled to Misplaced Pages and other sources instead. And like other search engines, Google is biased, per their article here. Misplaced Pages tries not to be biased, so that means that Misplaced Pages articles and categories should not have to adhere or even take into account Google searches.

Using this argument in any name procedure or word choice seems to be a last stand move. Take it away so that the real issues over a name or word choice can be handled.
—Lady Aleena talk/contribs 14:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Moreover, due to the number of sites like answer.com that gobble up wikipedia's information and cut and paste it, you can hardly google anything anymore (unless you disallow wikipedia as a search term) without finding the first 25 hits made up of wikipedia clones. So you have a bizarre chicken and egg situation where you google up a term, and because it is already on wikipedia, even if incorrectly, the clone sites boost up the hit count dramatically.Michael Dorosh 15:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Michael, can you provide an example? I have not observed that behavior on Googel SERPs (Search Engine Result Page) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It may be limited to arcane topics; I just did a couple of searches on general knowledge military history stuff and while both wikipedia and answer.com come up, they were not overwhelming. I'm at a loss to provide the example I was thinking of - but the open source license is an interesting byproduct in that regard, as webmasters looking for easy solutions to content problems can perpetuate articles at wikipedia and in some cases skew search statistics. I'll see if I can recreate the search over the weekend - can't remember the specific topics I was researching at the moment when that behaviour exhibited itself most obviously.Michael Dorosh 15:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I've got one. On the Eric Clapton page there's a bit about when, during a gig, he said something about voting for Enoch Powell to stop Britain becoming a "black colony", which has now got a {{fact}} tag after it. I googled a few different things along the lines of Clapton "Enoch Powell" "black colony" and couldn't find anything substantial that didn't refer to Misplaced Pages as a source. MightyMoose22 17:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Google is one tool to demonstrate the popularity of one term or expression or another. It's not perfect but then neither is taking a poll of your friends. --JeffW 16:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

A search of that nature is might not fulfill WP:V, but it could be used to demonstrate to another editor that a word is in use ("informations", for example). Terryeo 17:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the issue here is a position that google is biased in favor of American usage. This is a problem in discussions that involve naming choices when two different usages exist. Vegaswikian 17:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Google is biased, it just relfects what's happening online. What's biased here is the world of english speakers. It's just simple math...

Almost 75% of English speakers are North American. This means more american english is on the internet, and more people use american english to communicate with each other. -Quasipalm 17:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

That chart refers only to native speakers. Not to the billions of people who speak English as a second or third language. It does not represent "the world of English speakers" in any way, shape, or form. 81.178.65.121 16:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Point of order - Canadian english is still closer to British than American, but 68 percent is still respectable.Michael Dorosh 21:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't you mean "Point of information?" Besides, there are many Canadian spellings which use the British and American versions interchangably. Google, interestingly enough, is in fact biased to return local results - therefore, the version which any residents of the United States happen to be using is in fact biased significantly to American English spellings. But I still don't see why this matters: both spellings are quite legible, and this is the English wikipedia, not the American wikipedia. Falcon 22:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ref Misplaced Pages:Google test. It's just a heuristic. Don't take it too seriously. Deco 17:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"Slave to google" Misplaced Pages returns only 6 hits. So clearly, this idea is non-notable.  :-) Dragons flight 17:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

See Talk:3 (Soulfly album). It was renamed (from what I can tell) purely because most people don't know how to type ॐ, and I still disagree with that decision. MightyMoose22 17:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It is customary on WP not to use peculiar fonts and capitalization because some advertising executive has decided they are the "official look"; the company might change ad agencies tomorrow. While this is a weaker argument in the case of an already printed album, the album might be reissued with new artwork; so I think it applies. Septentrionalis 15:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but you're assuming that the actual title is 3 and that ॐ is just a fancy font (or whatever). I'm saying that the title is ॐ (as in aum) and that 3 is just the ignorant/simplified version. It's like claiming that the greek letter sigma ( Σ ) is just a fancy way of writing E, etc. etc. MightyMoose22 02:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Widely-unreadable fonts are not used in article titles, even for official names. Otherwise, any number of pages would logically have to be in totally incomprehensible writing systems; People's Republic of China, for instance, would need to be at 中华人民共和国. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 04:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

If this was the reason given I would've agreed, but the argument for renaming was that Google (or iTunes, or whatever) gets more results from typing "Soulfly 3" that from "Soulfly ॐ" because to the ignorant masses it kinda looks like a 3. As I said on the talk page, I don't care about the actual move itself, but claiming that 3 must be the correct name because Google says so is equatable with the idea that "probly" must be correct because it gets 2,070,000 hits (try it). MightyMoose22 02:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

That rationale, if indeed it was the one used, is faulty. That doesn't change the fact that apparently everyone agrees the page should be moved. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

As a post-script to my opening remarks, I have to say that I prefer the links provided by Misplaced Pages articles more than I do the search results from Google. If every article had an external links tab, like the talk page tab, and that was filled with all of the external links imaginable relevant to the article, I would never have to use Google again. - LA @ 20:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

But if every article had all of the external links imaginable, it would wind up being a lot like Google (or dmoz.org, anyway) and it would lose whatever it is you like. FreplySpang 21:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point FreplySpang, so let me qualify that statement. If every article had all the best of the external links imaginable. I can live without some of the pages out there, like those which are so bad grammatically they are hard to read.
—Lady Aleena talk/contribs 16:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Mmm, then we'd be a link directory, which is a good and useful kind of thing, but not the purpose of this particular project (i.e. Misplaced Pages). Keeping a good link directory going is a lot of work. FreplySpang 22:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the stats on this pie-chart are remarkable. It says that only about 1 in 20 people outside Australia, Canada, the US and the UK speak English. I work outside these four countries. English is the official language at work. We usually work with our partners in India, China, Philippines, Singapore and KL. The official language is still English. I would also be suprised if 94.5 pecent of contributors to English Misplaced Pages are from these four countries too. Wallie 12:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The chart is of native speakers only. Most English speakers are non-native, including a large percentage of contributors here. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly right.

• Also, many Americans speak three native languages, i.e., Spanish, English and Italian, which means these people are counted three times.
• If you are a Canadian, and live in Germany, you are also not counted.

All this makes the chart absolutely irrelevant and misleading. Wallie 18:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

As a post-post-script to my opening remarks, I say that Misplaced Pages naming conventions should trump Google searches every time. The naming conventions are there for a reason and should be adhered to. Also, I was not only referring to the Americanization of Google search results. I was also referring to the fact that Google will censor out searches depending on the locality. According to the article here, Google censors out all sites that show any political unrest in China from the Chinese people using the local version. If they do that there, what are they censoring elsewhere?
—Lady Aleena talk/contribs 16:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Google only censors content in China. It was quite controversial when they agreed to start doing it (obviously the alternative was to be blocked, as we are), and they may eventually decide to stop. (By the way, it's best to use — for an em dash, not a numerical entity, and certainly not a Windows-1252 numerical entity.) —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Usage is an important part of Misplaced Pages naming conventions, and Google is one (but only one) evidence of usage. Reliable secondary sources in English are more important; the consensus of native English-speakers, knowledgeable in the topic, is as good as any.

While I am on the subject, the problem of Misplaced Pages mirrors (like answers.com) is vastly reduced by the simple method of including -wikipedia in the search command; also, there are other search engines than google. If they agree on a distinction, it is almost certainly web usage. Web usage may not be English usage as a whole; but there should be evidence and argument to overrule it. Septentrionalis 15:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The names of articles and categories should be what most people expect them to be. If "Misplaced Pages naming conventions" result in non-obvious titles then they should not be followed, at least in that case. (BTW, I'll respond to your comment on my talk page when I have time to gather my thoughts, but probably tomorrow). --JeffW 22:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

This is probably all based on the User:Lady_Aleena's failure to get her way on category:Disaster movies. She's American and she wants it to be films because that's Misplaced Pages standard for film categories. But Misplaced Pages should be flexible and a good number of users, some of them British like me, think that writing in normal English is more important, and disaster movie is normal English in the UK. Piccadilly 00:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The phrase is equally normal in the United States. In reference to theatrical motion pictures, the terms "film" and "movie" are used interchangeably over here. When applied to made-for-television productions, "movie" is considerably more prevalent. For that reason, combined with the fact that many commercial motion pictures are no longer shot on film, I disagree with our naming convention. —David Levy 16:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I just noticed the following section, in which it's indicated that apart from the phrase "disaster movie," the term "movie" is not commonly used in the UK. I was unaware of this when I wrote the above reply. —David Levy 18:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Since we're playing slam Google as a metasource, let me add my own issues:

• Google is biased towards now and many users really doesn't grasp the fact that a lot of history pre-dates the Internet, the web, etc.

• Google is subject to being gamed: see Google bomb, Googlebait, Argumentum ad Google and the other articles in the Category:Google patsw 01:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Google is frequently used because it provides THE best ratio of effort to usefulness out there. It is very quick (far faster than saying "polling your friends") while also being extremely useful (way more useful than any "polling your friends" could possibly be). It is not perfect, so stop trying to attack for not being perfect. Perfection would take forever to reach. Rather recognise it for what it is, something anybody can easily use and very quickly use while at the same time provide information that is of some use (unlike "polling" your friends, which would provide inoformation of very little benifit. As would most other methods that you could try to come up with, I'd expect none would quite reach the powerful ratio google provides.). Mathmo 17:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Guideline on not changing one's comments after the fact?

I've been dealing with an editor who has forsworn use of the preview button - he sometimes makes talk/AfD/etc. edits in 5-minute-instalments, changing what he's written before. Also, he has no problem with heavily editing his own previous comments, e.g. just deleting incivil comments after they've been pointed out to him. Do we have a standard prohibiting this around somewhere?

And if it turns out we do not, you are all invited to comment on my proposal to add something to that effect to Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines. Sandstein 19:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Certainly seems a good idea, maybe we should have a set style for edits to comments (say strikethrough for removals and bold for additions). Plugwash 19:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

My advice on this is to be found at Misplaced Pages:Instruction creep. Editing a comment after a minute or two, when you see a grammar error, seems ok to me if your edit summary is clear—in fact, I've been known to do it myself occasionally. Hiding one's own uncivil edits is pretty obviously not ok, and I'm not sure we need a guideline to say so. -- SCZenz 19:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Erasing one's own uncivil comments after just a couple minutes is effectively saying, "I shouldn't have said that, I'm sorry." This seems like a positive thing to me. If it's been around long enough for anyone to read it, I would use strikeout (foo) instead. Deco 20:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that the dividing line is whether or not the comment has been responded to. It is a discourtesy (at least) to other editors to allow them to look like they are making irrelevant comments, and at worst may be a tactic for setting up an RfArb. That is the objection as I see it. Robert A.West (Talk) 20:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with all that's been said; strikethroughs are obviously ok. I can't speak for any of you, but my experience indicates that it needs to be written down somewhere, for the education of those new to the way of the wiki... Sandstein 21:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I note that if we had a real discussion software support, preventing edits other than strikeouts after a post had received responses would be easy. Oh well. Deco 21:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the deletion of uncivil comments is commendable, and should certainly not be prohibited. Do we want to maximise strife, or minimise it? The internet fosters more incivility than any other medium due to the lack of face to face or even voice to voice contact and the lack of time delays, so people need to be able to withdraw comments they regret and indeed they should be encouraged to do so. Piccadilly 00:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of uncivil comments would be acceptable, if the edit summary made that clear. However, I prefer strike through, as to me that says "I said this, but wish I hadn't", as opposed to "I never said that", plus simple removal is open to abuse by an offender adding and subtracting an uncivil comment to insult someone (who reads it/sees it on the diffs) but subsquently pleads that they had already "retracted" the comment. Regards, MartinRe 00:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this - actually deleting comments that others have already responded to just makes the whole conversation confusing. Like editing offensive comments, this can actually provoke the involved parties rather than help them settle their differences. If they really want to remove the comments from view, they can propose moving the entire discussion to someone's talk page - this works especially well for flame wars where just a couple people fill a whole page with back-and-forth. Deco 11:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I can kinda see both sides of that one. The biggest factor there is probably the motivation of the editor -- are they removing the offensive comments in a good faith effort to improve the situation, or are they removing them in bad faith, seeking to sneak a few jabs past other editors? Difficult to tell the difference, but on the bright side a guideline may not have to, we could just take notice of the apparent fact that many, but not all, editors may see such removals in a bad light, and suggest strikeout tags as a transparent alternative. Good idea? Luna Santin 17:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

AfD's of Current Events

I propose a moratorium on deletions of current event articles. Case in point How NOT to steal a SideKick 2. While this article may eventually be deleted (and or relegated to WikiNews); whether or not it is currently notable isn't the point (as the event and coverage is ongoing that is difficult to assess). What I believe the focus should be, is on Misplaced Pages's strengths. The long tail, not being paper, being up to date and relevant to what people want to research; and such articles serve as an ideal introduction to new users. To delete it quickly is unnecessary and contrary to those strengths, it also ignores that the article will be recreated, poorly, but other good faith new (potential) contributors. As such, they (new current event articles) shouldn't even be put up for AfD consideration, until such time as their ultimate notability – and their impact can be determined. - RoyBoy 16:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I would disagree. A subject has to be notable before it gets an article. You can't just create an article and argue that it should be kept because it might become notable in the future. We have to draw a line somewhere. What other criteria would you suggest on whether a current event is worthy of inclusion or not. Ydam 17:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say that WP:V would be a fair guideline. "Widely published", if an event is widely published and followed then it might be worthy of an article, whereas an event which is covered by 2 newspapers for one day would not be. Terryeo 22:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm concerned with "current events" not "an article"; the point of the not allowing an AfD is to avoid speculating on its future notability, which is exactly what people are trying to do by deleting it now. Once it is no longer a current event, then an AfD can be created. - RoyBoy 05:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

We are here to write articles. Even when something is part of a current event, we shouldn't be altering our standards or presentation because of that. Let Wikinews cover the news. Dragons flight 05:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages remains the first and typically only source the public will consult. If we linked/redirected the deleted article to its WikiNews coverage (assuming it exists), that would be fine with me, and is different from an all out delete. But I would add people come to Misplaced Pages for a summarized account; rather than another telling of the story from WikiNews; which is almost akin to another blog. Furthermore, I again see little harm in allowing the article to progress during the current event, then being moved to Wikinews. - RoyBoy 17:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

This won't do at all. If deletion of current events articles is banned anyone will be able to post articles about cats stuck up trees in their street. The best time to catch an inappropriate article is when it is new, and if a few errors are made, that's a small price to pay for clearing up a lot of bilge. Osomec 23:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with labelling them for future AfD consideration; based on verifiability... a cat up a tree simply wouldn't qualify as it couldn't be verified. - RoyBoy 13:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Why on earth should anyone be expected to take the trouble of noting them and then remembering to come back after a gap of time that suits you? It's a massive effort for people to nominate all the rubbish by a one-stage process, so switching to a two-stage process would be folly. Osomec 04:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

They don't have to remember. A bot can do it automatically, after a set amount of time, or when the current event tag is removed. - RoyBoy 15:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Even wikinews has standards. "People come here looking for this" does not mean "we should have this". Is there a demand for a wiki where you can post whatever you want? sure. Is wikipedia the place for that? no. Also, generally things can not be moved to wikinews because of licensing conflicts. Kotepho 13:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

You're right about licensing problems - the GFDL is much more restrictive than cc-by-sa - but I wonder, is it possible to move content in the other direction? I'm not sure if they're mutually incompatible or whether cc-by-sa is strictly more liberal. Deco 20:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

All sharealike schemes are mutually incompatible, unless they specifically exempt other licenses. GFDL works can't be redistributed as cc-by-sa, because that removes restrictions placed by the copyright holder; cc-by-sa can't be redistributed as GFDL, because that adds restrictions that the copyright holder has prohibited. Any sharealike license must prohibit the addition of restrictions beyond its own license, because otherwise it wouldn't be sharealike: a redistributor could just add restrictions saying no one could copy it, for instance.

In the case of cc-by-sa, the relevant passage is "You may not offer or impose any terms on the Work that alter or restrict the terms of this License or the recipients' exercise of the rights granted hereunder." No exemption is granted for GFDL. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Notability and deletion

I have noticed a decent amound of deletions happening because a subject is "not notable". There is no official policy about notability, but people seem to think there is. I have asked a few people about what is wrong with keeping non-notable pages, but noone seems to have any answer for me. One reason I read on the Misplaced Pages:Notability page, is that non-notable pages are hard to keep up to quality. But I can't imagine why that would matter, a simple tag or two would label the page as needing improvement, or mark it as generally a junky stub page.

Theres plenty of other tags to say what wrong with a page - but deletion isn't a tag. It removes history, removes information and work done on an article. How does it help the *readers* (thats who wikipedia is for) if we delete valid but "non-notable" information - a classification that is quite subjective.

Does anyone have a real answer for what is wrong with keeping non notable pages? I would like to propose that we actually make *policy* concerning non-notable articles - hopefully one that discourages censorship and allows wikipedia to become an encyclopedia that doesn't just contain a popularity-contest's worth of content. Fresheneesz 01:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The deletion of non-notable (and also poorly written) content is the center of the neverending philosophical debate between the inclusionists and deletionists. You can read about some of their rationales on Meta. A number of them seem to be intended to address notability. For me the motivation for deleting non-notable content is simply that it has limited impact on the world, and so relatively few readers will care about it. Since every article comes with a cost in maintenance and resources, it's best to focus our effort on the topics the most people will derive benefit from. Personally, though, I'm pretty lenient about notability and would happily accept a topic that affects only a few thousand people. Deco 01:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The question is where does one draw the line. I can document the existence of my mailbox with photographs, but should I write an article about it? Existence does not guarantee that an article should be written. And then there's the question of whether Misplaced Pages is being used for free advertising. A garage band might create a website which talks all about them and their goals and what songs they play, and they may get a hundred or so people to see them play at the local county fair, but do they deserve an article? What about a person who self-publishes his own novel? User:Zoe| 17:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I think vanity pages (like all the example you describe) are considered beyond non-notable and by definition POV. Thats a different issue. I think many people say that if something is non-notable, it probably will be POV, it probably isn't verifiable, it probably has OR. The thing is, those aren't always true, and my point is that non-notability isn't a fault in itself, but form a group of articles that are more likely to have faults. Just as unregistered editors are less likely to produce good edits, but many still do. Fresheneesz 20:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. A vanity page, despite the name, is not necessarily POV, although many are - you can talk about yourself or your obscure garage band in a neutral way, incorporating many references to verifiable sources. You don't see this much because most editors experienced enough to follow these rules also avoid writing articles on non-notable topics, but it's anything but impossible. This is just one potential justification; the link and discussion above lists some others. Deco 20:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Nothing whatsoever is harmed if we make Zoe's mailbox; no one will read it, and so it will just gather cyber-dust. What actual downside is there to permitting such an article? Server load isn't a valid reason; current Chief Technical Officer Brion Vibber (who now "maintain overall responsibility for all technical functions of the Foundation, including both hardware and software", although the position didn't exist at the time) has said: "'Policy' shouldn't really concern itself with server load except in the most extreme of cases; keeping things tuned to provide what the user base needs is our job." So what's the actual cost to us?

On the other hand, there are certainly benefits to having a very loose notability policy. (As loose as Zoe's mailbox, perhaps the benefits wane, but it's simpler to just not draw the line at all.) You need only compare Eric Burns' opinions about Misplaced Pages as of November 1, 2004 and as of November 20, 2005 to see how deletionism drives away contributors. No costs, nontrivial benefits: let's set the notability bar low, if we keep it at all. There's no point arguing over what's notable when there's no advantage to deleting things that aren't notable; it's a waste of time and effort. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Official policy on notability is contained in WP:NOT, which states that Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia, that Biography articles should only be for people with some sort of fame, achievement, or perhaps notoriety. One measure of achievement is whether someone has been featured in several external sources (on or off-line). Relatively unimportant people may be mentioned within other articles, that Misplaced Pages is not the yellow pages and that Misplaced Pages articles should not exist only to describe the nature, appearance or services a website offers. These points establish the concept of notability within wikipedia. However, no-one has managed to define it in policy beyond WP:NOT, since the term polarises debate and discussion of the issue becomes fractured. Steve block Talk 22:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I'm surprised that it's so old. Regardless, I think it is fair to say that consensus is currently in favor of notability requirements; WP:CSD shows that pretty clearly. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it might be a valid and interesting point to bring up the potential costs of *deleting* non-notable pages. I'm not talking about the hypothetical loss of information - but rather the huge waste of people's time arguing over *how* notable something is, and if its notable enough to keep, or non-notable enough to delete. I think its fair to say that hundreds or thousands of man-hours have been wasted over things that could have been completely avoided had their been clear policy to keep non-notable articles, if thats the only "issue". Fresheneesz 06:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

In that case though, some of these people would probably also quit the project, believing that it could not attain a worthwhile goal. Some have proposed a technical solution involving a notability level for articles such that readers can filter which ones they want to see, but this presents issues for disambiguation and would probably cause similar conflict over what notability level to make an article. Deco 08:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't answer the question of why those people will leave the project. And frankly, I doubt very many people would; they would just start ignoring non-notable articles instead of prodding and AFDing them. As for filtering, I don't really think that's necessary, provided the rule that links should only go to items of interest is maintained. (For instance, categories that include exhaustive catalogs of Dragon Ball Z stuff would be subcategories of Category:Dragon Ball, and anyone who browses to that category would want to see subcategories containing DBZ trivia.) —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

IMHO it is extremely important that there are some sort of notability guidelines and that these are adhered to. Without these Misplaced Pages becomes simply an indiscriminate collection of information. Above all else, if Misplaced Pages wants to be taken seriously in the academic world (and thus far I don't think it has been) as a reference tool, it must avoid becoming a collection of facts and trivia. (This is a multi-pronged problem, we need good articles on noteworthy topics.) As an example I could write a verifiable article about myself, as my university website has a page containing info on me. Would this add any value to Misplaced Pages? Or would it detract from its worth? WP:NOT is the only policy we have in this respect, but there are well-established guidelines (WP:WEB, WP:BIO, WP:MUSIC, etc) which are often used in deletion debates, and rightly so. Zunaid 09:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• I think if people couldn't use notability as a reason to delete they would start using something esle. You'd see the argument shift over to relaible sourcing, which is what, ultimately, notability boils down to; notability is somewhat shorthand for positing the question of whether there are enough reliable sources to write an encyclopedic article on a topic. It's all just a subjective debate, everyone has a different idea of what Misplaced Pages is. However, since Misplaced Pages is a work in progress it doesn't matter. Steve block Talk 13:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be excellent if people switched over to reliable sourcing, and verifiability. The problem now is that people use notability to mean those things, but when something is verifiable and reliably sourced, notability changes to mean something entirely different - importance. Notability is a term that is floated around and used to mean whatever the hell people want it to mean. Its a simple politicians trick. Fresheneesz 21:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that notability is a difficult term to use, as it implies subjectivity; a stated rather than implicit emphasis on reliable sourcing would be ideal, as it targets the editor/s involved to improve the article in a productive way (see my essay for my thoughts on the semantics of AfD). Ziggurat 22:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I wrote a proposal to shift the emphasis to sourcing. People appeared to be so opposed to even the mention of the word notability it died on its feet. Do you think there's much to be had from resurrecting it? Steve block Talk 23:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

All the better reason not to use the word; my essay is about the pragmatic problems with using 'notability', not the ideological ones (which have been boiled to the bone). I was sorry to see your proposal fail, but I think that this would best be covered by explaining the existing policies better. It appeared to be a restatement of the basic principles rather than an addition.Ziggurat 00:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Well, the proposal was mainly an attempt to restate the basic principles, since they seem to have got lost in the wordiness of WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. It seems to me Wikip

Yes, the fact that your proposal used the word notability was probably a large part of its failure. Notability has a very real definition in English, and changing its meaning in the context of wikipedia would be confusing at best. I think rather than resurecting that sort of policy, we should enforce the current policies of NPOV, NOR, and verifiability - not by adding a synonym, but by forcing people to use those policies to base their arguments, rather than allowing people to use such wishy-washy terms as "notability" and "importance". Fresheneesz 00:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that. Maybe I'll try drafting an essay sometime, but I'm dubious of the results it will get. Notability is ingrained in Misplaced Pages culture, whatever its validity. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Why do you think that an article on Zunaid or Zoe's mailbox would make an article on, say, Helium less trusted or reliable? Our respectability will come from stability and verifiability, thence reliability. If our information is reliable, we will become respected as a reliable source. No one will care that some of our reliable information is utterly worthless to them, provided that the rest is sound. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, add me to that group of noone. Misplaced Pages currently isn't reliable, and I wouldn't doubt that many think it can never be reliable because of the source of the information (us). Marking something as "not reliable" I think serves the same purpose as deletion, and is better because anyone interested can use a crappy article as a springboard to study or verify information thats in wikipedia, outside of wikipedia - and maybe even improve the article in the process. Fresheneesz 05:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't follow. If all information on Misplaced Pages were reliable, but some of that reliable info was non-notable, you would discard Misplaced Pages as a reference source just because of the non-notability of some of its content? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Part of our problem with reliability, however, is WP's fear of using anything primary in a NPOV fashion, as well as WP's general fear of things not printed on a dead tree. Reliability improves when our views on reliable sources improve. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Jeff's got a good point here. I can appreciate that when discussing scientific research the standards need to be higher, but when we're discussing cultural issues, there really needs to be some mechanism by which we can recognise certain commentators as reliable sources and not disregard them simply because their comments are posted on the web. Steve block Talk 14:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages can work if 2 standards are kept in place. One standard is about what powers editors and admins have. Another standard is about what consitutes a published, reliable source. As long as editors understand those and they are kept it place it can work. At one time, democracy was not okay, there was feeling that the common man didn't know enough to intelligently decide how he should be governed. When all publication was on paper in bound encylopedias, the subjects of articles were not decided by the common person. Here they can be. But we have to keep a bottom threshold for inclusion. Admittedly that is an arbitrary decision but it is the foundation of quality. Terryeo 23:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. We have to keep a bottom threshold for inclusion in terms of notability, because any article about something non-notable is of poor quality? Or we have to keep a bottom threshold for inclusion in terms of reliability, because any unreliable article is of poor quality? The latter I would agree with, the former certainly not. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

International versions

I have noticed that the international versions of Misplaced Pages articles are not just translations, but often completely different articles with different information. Is NPOV defendable when local Misplaced Pages version are significantly different? Obviously the FDL allows different versions, but I think it would be good if everything under the Misplaced Pages flag represented a single collection of facts, and not local interpretations. (I'm not sure if this belong to policy, so please redirect me to the appropriate discussion page if not) Robert John Kaper 16:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Each Misplaced Pages is a separate work, and that is the only way that Wikipedias in a wide range of languages can conceivably be created. The same fundamental polices apply to all of them, but each Misplaced Pages is the responsibility of its own editors. That's just the nature of the beast. Osomec 04:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be tremendously impractical to keep different languages in sync. Every single edit would have to be immediately translated to all other versions for it to work. It's just completely impossible, logistically speaking. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 04:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

What about weekly or monthly synchronization? ...IMHO (Talk) 05:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Even that would take a staff of thousands. If you're a billionaire maybe you could employ one. Otherwise, it just ain't going to happen. Calsicol 04:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

...IMHO (Talk) 06:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Assuming you "speak" n languages you might be able to keep a small number of articles in sync across that group, with collaborations across a larger group. But to some extent the language barriers stop POV warriors going across the whole set of projects. Having said that, both commons and interwiki links make it easier. Rich Farmbrough 08:59 14 June 2006 (GMT).

P.S. They are not "local" versions, although they will show bias towards there language group's locality, they are language versions. Rich Farmbrough 09:00 14 June 2006 (GMT).

I don't think you fully grasp the magnitude of your proposal. There are 229 Wikipedias; the English Misplaced Pages contains over a million articles. To keep it in sync with all others over the scale of a month, you would need to translate at least a hundred million articles per month. That's something like six orders of magnitude above the level of being remotely practical. Even syncing with one Misplaced Pages, such as German or Simple, would require hundreds of thousands of translations a month. Where are you going to get the translators? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest we use genetic engineering to create and breed a race of monkeys specially designed for translation. We then put them all inside a dark, cold room in Florida and force them to translate 22 hours a day with electric whips. Mmmm, burning monkey. Deco 10:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

On a less negative note, its worth mentioning the existence of Misplaced Pages:Translation into English. If you notice an article where it looks like an international version has more information than the English one, then placing a translation request can help in getting the English article improved. And as you'll see from the interwiki links, many of the other language projects have a similar translation request pages for translations in the other direction.

In the past I've had good success with translation requests, encouraging Marginated tortoise to be translated from the German article and Artemisia Gentileschi to be translated from the Italian. -- Solipsist 21:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Copyright Rules

Is there a table that lists the various copyright types according to the rules or sets of conditions that apply to and define each type? ...IMHO (Talk) 15:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

There is some good info at Misplaced Pages:Copyright_problems, and Misplaced Pages:Fair_use ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

As I mentioned on my talk page, the copyright status of various works (i.e., whether they're public-domain or copyrighted) is summarized in a handy chart here. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Categories of administrators by country

See: Category:Misplaced Pages administrators... Is it a good idea to have subcategories of administrators by nationality? What is that saying, exactly? Has this been discussed before, and if so where? Pointers gratefully accepted. Something just seems a bit "off" by doing this, even if it's been round a while... or maybe it's me. ++Lar: t/c 17:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this should be encouraged. Divisive and inflammatory? Oops - wrong debate. Stephen B Streater 18:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it not OK for admins to say on their user page where they're from? If they can say that, what's the difference if they add a category? Many users have categories saying which English county they're from.--Runcorn 19:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Why devisive and inflammatory? No one care where you are from these days. The internet is cutting down the big fish, and giving small fish a chance. Wallie 20:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I think they grew organically from the old lists we used to have, which then grew into categories. The australian one was first, coming off of the old Misplaced Pages:Wikipedians/Australia, where it was added without discussion in April 2005. Declaring bias as creator of Category:English administrators, I can't see how they are divisive or inflammatory, and they seem a logical intersection of Wikipedians by location categories and Wikipedians by Misplaced Pages status categories. What is it saying? That I'm an admin from England. What's the problem with that? Steve block Talk 21:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

What should it matter where you're from? Surely you should be impartial and neutral regardless. I think that's the the OP is hinting at. And i'd agree - I see no need to categorise where admins are from. I mean, should be have Category:White Misplaced Pages administrators, Category:Black Misplaced Pages administrators, Category:Christian Misplaced Pages administrators, Category:Muslim Misplaced Pages administrators... ?? /wangi 21:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It's called community building. You meet someone in a club or bar, you ask them, what's your name? Where are you from? Do you enjoy pumpernickle? Just getting to know one another. Don't worry about it. Deco 22:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• This is more akin to a workplace, in that with a bar you can decide not to get along with someone and you likely won't run into them, so you're more likely to say things that might rely on being on the same side of divides in society. In workplaces, people and workplaces typically try to avoid that kind of thing, which is why talking about salary, religion, etc are typical taboos there. While deeper ties with others on the Wiki is useful, it should be entered into carefully, with more care taken not to offend or emphasise difference. --Improv 22:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, maybe where you wrok is like that, but don't generalise. Where I work, that sort of stuff is the main source of conversation. Perhaps my workplace is more diverse and that therefore stimulates conversations on such subjects, I don't know, but those topics certainly aren't off limits. We just can't harass anyone for their views. However, it's unlikely your workplace needs categories like Black supervisors, since you can easily identify that. Why would you imagine categorising by race or belief would be such a problem? If they aren't mandatory, I don't see where the problem lies. Next we'll be told we shouldn't use our real names for fear of offending someone. Steve block Talk 23:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I wanted to know if it had been explicitly discussed before or not because I was curious. Just like with other things that let you find people quickly, there might be concerns if people were using a category as a way to unduly influence things... not sure that's really very likely? ++Lar: t/c 22:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if that's a legitimate concern. An admin who is going to abuse their powers is going to do so one way or another, and I don't see such categories increasing the liklihood, nor do I see the community solution being impeded by the existence of the categories. However, if this descends into another Userbox type mess I'll quite happily vote delete here and now just to settle the issue one way or the other. Steve block Talk 23:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't do that! I was just wondering about it and whether it had been talked about before... ++Lar: t/c 04:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The only issue I see with the categories is that unless some sort of 'bot is used to add people to them, being listed in under a category has to be seen as a voluntary thing, so the category can never really be considered complete. I'm an admin and I'm not listed under any categories (and wasn't even aware the categories existed until just now). One possible risk is that a vandal or someone with an axe to grind could decide to be juvenile and add someone to, say "Gay administrators" who isn't, etc. But that said the first page any Misplaced Pages editor should add to their watchlist is their userpage. 23skidoo 23:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

ISTR this was supposed to be a practical thing, helpful for finding admins who would be awake at a given time. FreplySpang 00:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Now THAT'S a great idea! but maybe time zones would be an even better way? ++Lar: t/c 04:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I think the best solution to "I need an admin right now" is to encourage more admins and users to participate in the IRC chatroom. Deco 10:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, Lar, "Why not use time zones" was my reaction too. Deco, God knows I like IRC, but I don't think it's feasible for everyone. It would be better to make the on-wiki admin request pages (WP:RAA, WP:AIV) more responsive. FreplySpang 14:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem with timezones is that it only tells you what time it is at the admin's location; without knowing what time that person is normally on, you're not any more likely to reach them, and even if you knew that you couldn't be sure something else didn't come up. At least on IRC the people who are there really are always there right now, and we could have an easy-to-use Java applet that connects up to a channel reserved for admin assistance. Too often we try to poorly duplicate other technology using wiki. Deco 00:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

A new policy/naming convention/directory tree/etc.

Offline I am currently typing up a proposal for a new policy which includes a naming convention, directory structure, and more. The proposal is getting long, so I don't want to post it here, as it would get cluttered with the more specific issues. Would it be acceptable to put it on its own page for discussion, expansion, contraction, etcetera? I would like to have comments and additions from various users interested in related topics and from users who are not that interested. It needs to be discussed at length before implimentation just to make sure that once done, all parties will be happy with the result.

Another reason I need to know where to put this is so that I can inform users through various articles talk pages. With a central discussion arena, a lot can be accomplished.

And in case anyone is interested, the subject of my propsal is Locations in fiction and Fictional locations. If you are not interested in the topic, but interested in the proposal, I will try to post the wikilink here too, once I know where to put it.

Its current length is 7838 bytes.
—Lady Aleena talk/contribs 22:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Put it in the Misplaced Pages: namespace, such as Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (fictional locations), or a less permanent name such as Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions change proposal, and add {{proposal}}. See Misplaced Pages:How to create policy. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It's important to note also that we probably should not have a lot of these articles because the fictional locations are, in themselves, not often encyclopedic. --Improv 14:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The proposal is much larger than just fictional locations, but also real locations used in fiction, and dismbiguating settings. Fictional locations is only a part of the overall proposal. I hope you participate when I put it up. It is hoped that a uniform system will be adopted from this, and many people from many disciplines will join in the discussion. The reason I would like a seperate place for it, is the fact that it is so large.
—Lady Aleena talk/contribs 19:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The proposal is at Misplaced Pages:Locations in fiction, fictional locations, and settings (talk).
—Lady Aleena talk/contribs 20:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Underage users

Do we have any policy on underage users? I mean, I know we allow them but it concerns me to see users who are 11 or 12 and list their age, gender, and full name on the Misplaced Pages. Do we have a page we could direct these users to in order to point out why it may not be a good idea? I'm also concerned that some categories make it perhaps easier than it should be to track down underage users. Please note that I'm not saying we should ban these users; many of them contribute quite productively to the Misplaced Pages. --Yamla 23:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so.Geni 00:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I would just drop a friendly note on their talk page concerning privacy and let them make the decision. They'll pay more attention to a friendly personal note than a boilerplate template pointing to a random page. Many of these users have prior Internet experience though, despite their age, and know what they're doing. Deco 00:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I might guess its possible they're giving support to young editors - but I would definately drop a note to those doing things like that, if someone hasn't already. Fresheneesz 01:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

This discussion has come up a great number of times, but in the context of protecting Misplaced Pages from them. Werdna (talk) 01:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

While it is certainly true that teenagers in general seem to commit rather a lot of vandalism (I am forever reverting it), I find that a number of younger editors also produce some very high-quality edits. They tend not to understand copyright and fair-use but as far as general edits go, there's often some good stuff. Deco's comment about hand-writing a friendly note is a good idea and probably right on the mark. --Yamla 02:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

We also have several teenaged admins, and even a former arbcom member (User:Grunt). User:Zoe| 16:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

And at least on 'crat who's younger than I am (I'm 15). Will (message me!) 21:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

wikipedia is one of the few places where those in their early 20s feel old.Geni 15:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Underage is in mind, not in birth. Well-bred people talking politics, sports and sometimes only religion show their age and nothing can be done. --DLL 23:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Deleting Articles without General Utility

Misplaced Pages:Utility is a new guideline/proposal, and an alternative to the Not Notable essay. Please take the time to review or edit it.—Pengo 01:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Linkification of Years and Decades in Articles

I'm not sure if there is already a policy on this, but I propose that the first instance of a each year and decade in an article should be linkified, and that the instances after should not be linkified. --Shanedidona 03:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Manual of style (dates and numbers). —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

New proposal about Music samples

Hello everyone. I made a guideline proposal about music samples used in music related articles in Misplaced Pages:Music samples, to regulate there use and prevent copyvios. But we need users who know enough about copyrights and fair use in one hand. and audio formats in other hand. Thank you. CG 07:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed change to MOS/Biography

I have proposed a change/clarification in the handling of royal honorifics at the MOS (biographies) page to state that honorifics should not be used inline (but should be mentioned) for royalty. Please comment at the link above. Thanks. --Improv 14:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

No Legal Threats-mitigation of damages

WP:LEGAL contains the following sentence:

"But, if you really feel the need to take legal action, we cannot prevent you from doing so. However, we ask that if you do so, then you do not edit Misplaced Pages until the matter of law is settled - one way or the other - to ensure that all legal processes happen via proper legal channels."

As I wondered on the talk page: wouldn't someone who needs to take legal action also be obligated to edit Misplaced Pages because of mitigation of damages?

(We don't seem to have a Misplaced Pages article on the subject.) Ken Arromdee 15:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• The "wherever possible" comes into play. We do not intend to make it possible for users who are taking legal action to edit the encyclopedia. --Improv 02:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the page is phrased as "we ask that you" and not "we don't let you", implying that Misplaced Pages doesn't prevent people from doing such editing, but rather considers such editing a violation of policy and punishes it after the fact. Moreover, that *is* the case. Someone who sues Misplaced Pages can still edit anonymously or through a sockpuppet. And it's quite possible for someone's lawyer to tell him that he's legally obliged to violate Misplaced Pages policy and mitigate damages that way. Granted, I don't think that anyone has done that yet, and the article would probably get edited via WP:OFFICE anyway, but something seems strange about a policy telling people not to do something that the law may demand that they do. Ken Arromdee 05:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• I can't provide legal advice, but I suspect that applying a "reasonable person" test might suggest that if we make efforts to block you, you won't be obligated to get around them. Phrases like "we ask that you" are part of an overemphasis on politeness that lead to lack of clarity on policy (which has grown to be a problem.. sigh). The law doesn't provide a must either though, AFAICT, although IANAL. --Improv 13:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not sure we should prevent people editing from editing Misplaced Pages while engaged in legal action... for example, if there's a violation of WP:LIBEL, why should we stop them from removing said libel? Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 00:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Because throwing legal threats around makes for a very unpleasant editing environment. And if you don't agree with me, I'll sue you for terminal boneheadedness. --Carnildo 06:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Disclosing "conflict of interest"?

I own a company that makes medical devices. In an article about a medical disorder I wrote a short summary of a scientific study that used my company's devices. The study was done independently by a university hospital and published in a peer-reviewed journal. I didn't specify the name of the device or the name of my company. Someone told me that I should have put in a "conflict of interest" disclosure. I'd be happy to do that, but a complete disclosure would specify the name of the device and the name of the company, which someone else might think was advertising. A vague disclosure, such as "a person who edited this article works in a field related to the subject of this article" would be so broad that half the articles on Misplaced Pages would have such a disclosure. People who work in a field tend to be experts in that field.

Is there a policy about disclosing a conflict of interest?--Tdkehoe 18:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

In all sincerity, who is "someone" and why are you listening to them?Michael Dorosh 18:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Policy may differ, but if the independent source was cited, and the article is not POV, I don't see any problem. BTW, it's generally good policy to leave a link to the article you're asking about when bringing it up on VP.SB Johnny 18:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's the article in question, and the "disclosure" someone named "Bardi" added: Stuttering.--Tdkehoe 03:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Nobody should be placing disclosures in article space (as was done, before I removed it). If something's bias, it should be fixed, or a {{POV}} tag placed, which gets other editors involved. Sometimes, a disclosure of bias on a talk page is appropriate. If something favors your company, you should ask for a change on the talk page. But regardless, this doesn't go in article space. --Rob 04:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for removing the "disclosure." I agree with you: if something is biased (wrong, out of date, whatever) then fix it. Don't disparage the author. E.g., if I saw something that was out of date, I wouldn't post a warning: "The author of this material hasn't kept up with the latest developments." If I saw wrong material, I wouldn't post a warning: "This author doesn't know what he's talking about."--Tdkehoe 18:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This is off-topic, but I have to say the graphics in that section are pretty awful. The 3-D nature of them distorts the numbers (in the first one, what's the actual comparison after 4 months?) and adds non-data ink (per Tufte), and the actual data comparison is trivial--two or three pairs of numbers. Way too much screen space is used for such a small amount of information. Just thought I'd point this out while people's eyes were on this article. · rodii · 18:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I would recommend that if there's a possible conflict of interest, you post the suggested addition on the talk page and ask if anyone thinks it merits addition, rather than adding it yourself. I don't think there was a strong conflict of interest here, but it's better to at least try that first. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

My feeling about using the talk page is that the disclosures might well be removed if the discussions are active and lengthy unless they are associated with some talk-page box that asks that such should not be removed. Two alternatives given available tools could be a subpage in the main article space (not a good idea, because disclosures are intrinsically not appropriate for main article space) or a subpage in the talk space (would be ok -- would effectively isolate disclosures from on-going discussions -- could be 'standardized' in title, i.e. Talk:Stuttering/Disclosures or Talk:Stuttering/Editorial Disclosures). User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 09:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Doubled stub tags

I am forever seeing articles with more than one stub tag affixed to them (usually two). I am wondering if perhaps this practice should stop, because they look terribly awkward and disorganised stacked one atop the other. My question, then, is twofold:

• (a) should we allow more than one stub tag on an article, and
• (b) if so, should we prohibit redundant ones (where one tag is a subset of another, eg. one for a politician stub and one for an Iranian politican stub)? Falcon 20:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Same as categories, the case is not rare, of a national politician that was involved in WWII, or a place related to historical events ... For subsets, it would be easier to ban them (just try to see if there is ordering enough in stubs to find subsets). --DLL 23:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

While I understand your frustration, it is helpful to have multiple stub tags on entries. As the entry is improved, those tags can be removed, and it makes it easier to find appropriate/relevant categories for the entry. Folajimi 14:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The best ever stub is this revision of Ambrosius Stub. Kusma (討論) 15:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Excellent example, Kusma! I'm suprised that it even passed for a stub.

However, I do wonder why the other categories are left out of the current revision... --Folajimi 15:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

There used to be a general feeling in the stub-sorting community that use of multiple stubs (say over two) was a no-no. I don't know if that sentiment has changed, but I don't agree with it in any case. Stub template addition should be treated in the same way that categorization is ... you use as many stub categories as you need. Note that stub categories do not replace standard categories - if you find a stub that lacks a standard category (i.e. a category other than the stub categories it finds itself in as a result of bearing stub templates), add appropriate standard categories. There are two reasons to do this. First, standard categories are often more specific than stub categories. Second, the standard categories should be persistant and their presence will allow removal of stub templates without the removing editor having to simultaneously recategorize the article. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 09:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I can see a few arguments to support either side, here. It could clutter up things, I suppose, both for stub categories and the article itself. But, I think it's very probably worth it -- since the whole point of a stub is to be expanded, I'm not sure if it would be an entirely bad idea to offer more than one route for expansion. Granted, past a certain point it gets excessive, but I'm not sure where that point would be. If a particular combination of stubs comes up pretty frequently, it seems an argument to consider creating a new stub type. Luna Santin 10:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:WIAGA rule 5

I was part of a debate over that rule about wether constant vandalism qualifies as instability or not. Thoughts? False Prophet 02:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

No vandalism per se doesn't mean an article is unstable (it probably means it is just popular). A threat to stability would be the addition or alteration of a substantial part of the prose - that would qualify as instability. Davodd 04:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Question about external links

Yes, I read the page about ext. links, and my question was not answered there. My question: I originally placed a ton of ext. links to videos on the internet in the Brokeback Mountain parodies article. They have been removed, the remover arguing that my links violate the rule that says 'Misplaced Pages is not an Internet directory.' I understand that, and I've read all the rules on it- I understand that, whenever possible, Misplaced Pages should only link internally. However, in the case of these videos, that is impossible; and furthermore, I absolutely believe that this data- a brief descrip. of each vid, with a link to each one- is absolutely relevant to the article and worthy of Misplaced Pages. Here's a link to the page as it looked previously when my links were still in it: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Brokeback_Mountain_parodies&oldid=55259986 . Let me know what your consensus is.

And, if indeed you do decide that such linkage is improper, my other article, re-cut trailers, will have to be changed as well. Andrewdt85 18:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• A half-dozen links is usually appropriate; any more than that has a tendency to raise eyebrows. --Folajimi 18:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Without bothering to take tpo much time and look at each of these links, I'll just quickly ask instead if there is a webpage out there (other than wikipedia) that gives a listing of these parodies? If so then you can exclude all of those ones listed and just link to that page instead. Alternatively, another alternative is to create yet another seperate page in wikipedia that is a listing of these links. And then link to that in the main article. Which makes the main article appear cleaner. Also you could try breaking up the links into sections acording to type if that is at all possible. Again it will appear neater if it has some organiisation like that, rather than one big jumbled up heap of links. So think about these ideas and try applying whatever mix of them you feel will work best in your case. Mathmo 18:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

"I'll just quickly ask instead if there is a webpage out there (other than wikipedia) that gives a listing of these parodies?" - yes, there is a page that lists all the Brokeback ones- well, all but a few. Still though, I haven't heard any good reasons yet why my data can't stay on the page. Andrewdt85 20:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Reverts to remove inflammatory comments?

I'm helping keep things calm on a controversial topic that was listed on the front page. Someone just put an obviously inflammatory anonymous comment on the Discussion page. Is there any policy on reverting to remove flames, or do we just let it all hang out? I have no problem either way, I was just curious if this is ever done. I can imagine a controversial article drowning in flames otherwise... :) Anon Y. Mouse 19:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I would personally let it stand if it provides any constructive criticism. It's on the discussion page, not the article - readers understand that it's just the opinion of one person. But others disagree with me. Deco 19:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Em and en dashes in article titles

I have noticed that a large number of articles with hyphens in the article title were recently moved to titles using em or en dashes. The relevant MoS entry about dashes in article titles indicates that em and en dashes in aritcle titles are to be avoided (unless it's absolutely necessary to use them for some reason).

Policy issues aside, is a move request for the affected pages necessary, or is moving the pages something that can be done by an administrator without going through requested moves? – Swid 19:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Moving pages can be done by any editor who has had an account for more than four days. User:Zoe| 22:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing in the linked MOS entry that I read as a desire to generally avoid en-dashes in titles. Jack-in-the-box ought to be typeset with hyphens (as the MOS wishes), but Hasse–Minkowski theorem is correctly titled using an en-dash. The MOS entry simply says that in this context, there needs to be a redirect from Hasse-Minkowski theorem. Arbor 20:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, using em and en dashes in article titles should be generally avoided, as the use of dashes in article titles provides a very small increase in the "perfection" of an article's title over the same title using a hyphen, while sharply increasing the probability of linking to a redirect page. The vast majority of casual (and a sizable percentage of experienced) editors will see that using a hyphen creates a valid link and won't bother to see if that link is being redirected. For an article that has a lot of articles pointing to it (for example, the University of Nebraska–Lincoln), using an em or en dash guarantees that most of the links to it will be made to a redirect page. While I'm a fan of tpyographic accuracy, I believe that this is one situation where the tradeoff between absolute accuracy and ease in casual/everyday use should be resolved in favor of the latter. – Swid 15:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I generally agree with Swid on this. I use en- and em-dashes in the article body where they seem called for, but using them in article titles should be avoided. It wouldn't create a great burden if they were used, though, as someone could compose a bot to conduct routine maintenance to resolve redirect references in articles, but the benefit gained seems kind of small for the overall cost. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 09:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Getting a Barnstar for good work

If a user has made many contributions to an atricle or project in particular in a very good way and also helped it get improved should the user get a barnstar for good work or do they have to do something major that has improved the article such as adding new tasks for the project or coming up with a great idea for the project. I am not being greedy or anything but I feel I can get something like this. Anyone can look at my contributions and see I have made MAJOR contributions particularly for the Misplaced Pages EastEnders and Indian Cinema projects and feel sometimes I am not being appreciated for it. (Shakirfan 20:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC))

I assure you that your work is appreciated. Frankly, Barnstars are little more than a friendly gesture made by people who know you that has become rather out-of-style. I've never gotten one and I've been an admin since 2003 and have many thousands of edits and dozens of new articles under my belt. Also, Barnstars are generally given for cleanup work, rather than writing new content. Deco 20:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Barnstars are handed out at the giver's discretion. They could be given to anyone, by anyone, for anything, so long as the giver feels it's justified. I suggest you visit WP:ESP if you're feeling unappreciated. There are plenty of good people there who are more than happy to help. MightyMoose22 20:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow. I've never seen that before. Deco 20:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I only stumbled upon it when curiosity led me to click on a random little green thing in someone's signature a few months ago. That's why I've got one in mine now. MightyMoose22 01:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Date formats

As a resident of the United States, I am used to seeing dates as month/day/year and they tend to be formatted on Misplaced Pages as such (which, I admit, is rather counter-intuitive.)

But I also know that many other countries (most?) use the day/month/year format. Is there any set Misplaced Pages policy on it? An example of an article with many dates formatted like this is A_Bigger_Bang_Tour. I think there should be a policy such that dates have to be formatted to avoid ambiguity, with perhaps even the use of a template so that users could have a personal setting or so that they could all be changed easily in case of a future policy change. --Stellis 00:59, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

If you wiki a date, like so (10 February), it'll be formatted according to the prefences you have set. In other words, what you suggest exists.

Of course, wikifying every date isn't done because it's irrelevant to most articles, so in general consistency should be kept throughout a certain article. Dates are understandable in any case, since the format is to use actual month names, making each field unique regardless of placement. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 01:04, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Where all-numeric date formats are concerned, my own preference is YYYY-MM-DD, like 2006-06-18. That has the advantage of sorting correctly in a pure ASCII sort, and can be extended with time like 2006-06-18 00:47:06 (using 24-hour time; time zones can still be an issue, however, if UTC is not used). *Dan T.* 04:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I too prefer the YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS format, for the very same reasons. By the way, why did the default date used with "~~~~" end up being the way it is? One can always change the format afterwards, but it's irritating to have to do that. --Cultural Freedom (Talk) 2006-06-18 07:13 (UTC)

Probably because by specifying the month name, it's impossible to confuse it with anything else. But with your format the day and month could be mistaken for each other. For example, is 2006-03-08 the 8th of March of the 3rd of August? I think it would be better not to change it, because it goes away from the standard format, makes more work for you, is slightly more confusing and it might cause problems for bots that are expecting dates to be in a certain format. Icey 18:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever seen YYYY-DD-MM, so it's probably not very common at all, which means it's unlikely to confuse people. But we could also change the format to 2006 June 18, at least (very) automatic sorting would get the years right, and with a slight tweak for the months, the whole date and time would be easily sortable. And note that "the" standard format is not at all standard for a lot of readers.... --Cultural Freedom talk 19:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

My choice of words was a bit dodgy, by "standard format" I meant a format that can't be confused with anything else. "18 June 2006" can only refer to one day. I like the YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS format as well, but it could be mistaken for something else. If it would be useful to you, I could write a PHP script that will sort lines based on various date formats. Icey 23:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I can just modify the ancient Word macros I use for things like sorting (I do almost everything in Word, oddly enough).

But wouldn't it be relatively easy to modify the software so that the dates created with "~...~" commands were wikied, and thus their appearance could be determined by a user setting? That capability already exists in other contexts, right? (I'm new here, so pardon my possibly not quite correct use of the relevant terms to describe this stuff.) --Cultural Freedom talk 08:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it does. An example was posted earlier in this thread. I agree though, I think that would be the best option, because we could have dates in our chosen format. It would lead to a whole lot of date links in comments, but I suppose the idea is to change them to the chosen format, so they wouldn't need to be linked. Icey 12:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

<-- How can one try to make this happen? (Unfortunately, I'm an expert in neither Misplaced Pages policy formation nor Wikimedia software....) --Cultural Freedom talk 09:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Would this be canvassing?

I am planning on filing an RfC against a user and was thinking about going back through their edit history and contacting users (most likely through email) whose talk pages he has edited to ask them to contribute to the RfC. Would this be considered canvassing against Misplaced Pages policy? I'm perfectly willing to contact ALL such users without regard for the details of their interaction if that makes any difference. Ideogram 21:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• The following is an excerpt from WP:RFC:

"A user-conduct RfC informs the community of a dispute between editors and invites comments from the community."

The act of issuing an RfC in and of itself is a sufficient site-wide announcement. Attempts to contact "allies" to your cause may be perceived as "campaigning", or an underhanded attempt at ballot-stuffing. Either way, your actions may be deemed excessive... --Folajimi 02:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I Don't think it is uncommon for, say 2 or 3 editors of a common view about an editor to communicate via email and thereby, more or less at the same time, create an RfC. The one brought against me, User:ChrisO posted that he had created an RfC on the several editors Discussion pages whom he felt was sympathetic to "his" point of view. Like, prepare the RfC and prepare the standard post that will go on several "sympathetic" editor's discussion pages. Post the RfC, go down the list of pre-prepared "sympathetic" editors and post the same notice to all of their discussion pages. Efficient, and it isn't quite canvassing because those editors are of course, interested parties. Terryeo 05:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest you don't; it is likely to provoke at least one of the users you contact into considering that you are unduly canvassing. While it is certainly true that often RfC don't generate massive interest, attempting to stir up interested parties is, currently, heavily frowned upon. It's a delicate balence. JesseW, the juggling janitor 08:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Direct to video films

Is there any sort of notability policy on direct-to-video films? Should they have a different notability from those that actually show in theaters, or does it matter? I'm specifically referring to Chubby Killer, which, according to imdb, is direct-to-video. User:Zoe| 23:42, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Notability. Currently, we don't seem to have guidelines for films at all, just fiction in general. Deco 23:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

There has to be some kind of guideline, since we can't have every student film in the world on here. A $15k budget, no notable actors, no notable director, having an article notwithstanding (and could probably be AfD'd), and according to the IMDB it's not even out yet? Yikes. We need a film answer to WP:MUSIC, which has served us quite well. --Golbez 23:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:MUSIC isn't *that* great, it's got a whole pile of flaws that need to be addressed. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't know if there's anything set in stone, but ones that are distrubuted by major houses should be fine, as Chubby killer is distributed via Lion's Gate. That should be worth something. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Remember that wikipedia is not paper, and although we might think its ridiculous to have "every student film in the world on here", we might be surprised to find out that wikipedia can handle that sort of load. Fresheneesz 07:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Request for clarification

On the page which explains policies and guidelines it states that guidelines are "actionable." Does this mean that users must follow them or face blocking? Is it ever permissible to refuse to comply with an official guideline? Exploding Boy 00:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

....Anyone? Exploding Boy 02:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

no see WP:Block#When_blocks_may_be_used.Geni 02:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of the blocking policy. I'm looking for something specific about guidelines. For example, what, specifically, does "actionable" mean if not "blockable"? Exploding Boy 02:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Who knows. It isn't covered by blocking policy so admins can't block you for not following it. I supose arbcom could wack you but they can pretty much do whatever they like.Geni 02:55, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not true either. Users can be blocked for things not covered by the blocking policy. Exploding Boy 02:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

• Do you have any records of such occurences? If so, could you please provide such? --Folajimi 03:01, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Of which? Blocks for things not mentioned in blocking policy? No. People refusing to comply with guidelines? Yes, but I'd rather not identify them at this time. Exploding Boy 15:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Users can be blocked for "disruption". Persistently going against generally accepted guidelines without good reasons can sometimes be considered "disruption", and thus might be a reason for a block. There's also the "exausting the community's patience" clause on another page. --cesarb 21:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

AFAIK, "actionable" means "unlike essays, or random notes people put in their user pages, it is generally considered a Good and Sensible Thing to take action to follow guidelines", i.e. if take action in accordance with a guideline, you are more likely to have more support from the comunity at large than if you act without one. It has nothing to do with blocking at all. Make sense? JesseW, the juggling janitor 08:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

When a user is probably never coming back...

Hi, I was wondering if there is any sort or deletion policy for users who have abandoned Misplaced Pages, but whose userpages are still taking up space. For example, User:Billcica was here for a total of three days back in early April, broke just about every rule in the book, was subsequently blocked for 48 hours, and never came back. Is his usepage just going to stay for an indefinite amount of time, being modified now and then by bots and other automatically generated changes, or is there something that is usually done in such cases? Thanks, romarin 01:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

• Can you say with absolute certainty that said user will never return to the project? There is a list for "Missing Wikipedians"; it might be appropriate to include that user's name on the list. --Folajimi 01:33, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that inactive accounts have almost never been deleted before. There's a proposal to delete inactive accounts, but that's only if they've never edited at all. So deletion in the case of an editor who was once active probably won't happen for a long time. --Allen 01:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I question the notion of "taking up space." Space in some notional "login space," file storage, what? It's a vanishingly small number of bytes in the larger scope of Misplaced Pages, and it uses zero bandwidth or close to it. But it's a potentially useful addition to the history--if someone says, hey, this case reminds me of that Billcica thing, or wants to investigate an incident that Billcica took part in, the information is there. So the cost of keeping seems almost infinitesimal, and the benefits are potentially real. This question seems to come up on every site that allows users to login, as if there's a risk of running out of accounts. · rodii · 01:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses, this information helps clarify things. As for the "taking up space" thing, you have a good point, but I was only bringing this up because there seems to be a lot of argument lately about using space, bandwidth, etc. (such as the policy against unnecessary images, the importance of subst'ing templates, those who want to delete userboxes based on their taking up template space, just to name a few). I just wasn't sure if unused userpages were important enough to become a part of this dialog as well.

Regarding the list of missing Wikipedians, as i mentioned, this particular user broke just about every rule in the book (vandalism, personal attacks, page blanking, using wikipedia for advertising, uploading unsourced images, among others) in a matter of three days before disappearing, so I don't think he really warrants a place on that list! Thanks again for the comments, romarin 02:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

A user involved in conflict we have all the more reason to retain the page of, for the purpose of documenting that conflict. A user page is not a shiny reward they get for good contributions and that we revoke if they misbehave; everybody gets one and they help keep track of users and information about them, bad or good. Hell, even User:Willy on wheels still exists. Deco 06:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Anyone who cites space or bandwidth concerns for anything whatsoever should be thwacked. Virtually none of us know what effects anything will have, since we haven't run benchmarks (or have you?). There's a Chief Technical Officer appointed to make decisions like this, and he's said we shouldn't generally worry about it. There is no policy against excessive image use for space reasons (as opposed to fair-use or aesthetic reasons), there is no policy to subst anything on the basis of server load (except signatures . . . but there, you'll notice, the developers installed a hack themselves to make it outright impossible to transclude them, something they're perfectly capable of doing without much effort for high-use templates if they felt it was important), and anyone opposing userboxes on the basis on server load deserves to be smacked with an enormous cluestick. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Around 6,000 accounts are created each day now, and that will probably continue to rise. Deleting a few to save a miniscule amount of space would be a total waste of time and effort. CalJW 06:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Google Earth screenshots

Do we have a policy on using Google Earth or Google Maps screenshots to illustrate place articles? --Ludraman 13:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. They're copyrighted, therefore we cannot use them. User:Zoe| 20:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Bear in mind, however, that it may be possible to obtain a freely-licensed shot of equal usability through NASA World Wind... Shimgray | talk | 21:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

New essay

Hi. I just wrote Misplaced Pages:On assuming good faith (terrible title, I know, please feel free to move it). It's a wiki-essay I've been mulling over for a little while about the relation between WP:AGF and WP:VAND. Feedback and constructive edits are quite welcome. Thanks! -GTBacchus 20:07, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

verifiability, not truth

I am having difficulty in an argument over differing points of view regarding some definitions.

I have provided two citations from textbooks directly supporting my definition. My opponents are primarily reasoning from indirect sources to support their definition.

The problem is compounded by the fact that they all know more and are smarter than me. One participant in particular has repeatedly stated his disrespect for me.

My point is that their reasoning, while perfectly valid, is not as important as providing citations, since citations can be used to improve the quality of the article. So far all my opponents have been unable or unwilling to provide citations that directly support their definition.

Nevertheless, since I am alone, I am prepared to yield the point and try to reach some compromise wording that accomodates both definitions. My problem now is that no one seems to want to discuss with me. The wording as it presently stands is in line with their definition and I am frankly afraid to edit it due to the history of conflict. But I also cannot see why my definition, with two directly supporting citations, should be completely ignored. Ideogram 05:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide some context, like what article are you talking about? -GTBacchus 05:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the article is programming language but I wouldn't recommend trying to read the (archived) debate as it is very long and tedious.

If you are familiar with computer science, the debate is whether we should say that programming languages are by definition those that are all equally powerful in a mathematical sense (Turing-complete) or whether less powerful languages like SQL and HTML are also programming languages. Ideogram 05:52, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I have never heard it asserted that a language must be Turing-complete to be a programming language, but if you have two citations, you have two citations. On the other hand, I can see your fellow editors' point: the term, "special purpose programming language" is often used for non-Turing-complete languages, as well as languages whose Turing-completeness is not obvious, and the term would be purposeless if your point were universally accepted.

Technically, their proper response should have been to cite sources. On the other hand, I can sympathize with their response, "Come on now! We use these terms every day and that is not how the term is used on a daily basis." A simple check of some tertiary sources would have confirmed that they are not talking nonsense. For example, the Brittanica lists SQL and HTML among its programming languages, and AbsoluteAstronomy.com lists several programming languages whose Turing-completeness is not known.

Verifiability is one of our three touchstones. It is non-negotiable, and tertiary sources are not normally considered reliable sources. On the other hand, the policy wasn't created to make people run around finding secondary sources for statements that can readily looked up in obvious places. My view only. Robert A.West (Talk) 06:42, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I have long since abandonded any attempt to favor my definition over theirs. My points are:

• They really should provide citations for the good of the article.
• We should be working towards a compromise that accomodates both points of view, not ignoring my citations.

Thank you. Ideogram 06:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

As I read the current lead, the Turing-complete point is mentioned, but I haven't gone through the citations. Perhaps more "For the good of the article" and less "verifiability, not truth" might get more cooperation? Robert A.West (Talk) 06:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

At this point I am feeling very timid and avoiding the article, but when I return I will keep your point in mind. Ideogram 07:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

One point about html (or xml). A markup language is not a programming language as VB. You need yet another program - a browser, using parsing and rendering (?) subprograms -, to use html, and you can't do much with it alone.

Some languages deal with information and data and metatext. Others with calculation, true information processing and "things to be done" which is the core of programming. Such distinction could be first clearly explained, then one may enter into Turing properties. What do you think ? --DLL 19:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

X massacre vs. X Massacre

Currently there is no policy on capitalising of "massacre" in article names (see google). I think there should be one. I don't see how one article can have capital M, and the other lower-letter m. Now, my question is, is there a right solution and a wrong solution, or are both solutions correct, and we should conduct a vote? --Dijxtra 13:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

From a practical point of view, some 3/4 or more of articles have lowercase "m", so (unless there are prevailing arguments for the opposite), it would be far easier to move uppercase ones. I'm far from an expert on English orthography, but I don't see why would uppercase be justified—most of those names were given "ad hoc" and/or "post-festum". And further, when in doubt, there's WP:NC#Lowercase_second_and_subsequent_words. Duja 15:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Something like the Boston Massacre probably deserves capitals, as it refers to a specific event bearing that name, not just a massacre which occurred in Boston. Generally speaking, if you can't capitalize it, I think you should rename it, because "massacre" isn't a very neutral word if it isn't part of the name. Deco 21:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

For comparison, something that would not have capitals would be Watergate scandal, because that's not the "official name" of the scandal, it's just a scandal involving/called Watergate. Deco 21:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Point of Information: Vote hawking or pawning

Are there any rules regarding the bartering of votes on AfDs, RfAs, etc? How about guidelines? --Folajimi 03:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• I don't know of any precisely on point, though the observation that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy is clearly relevant. We function through discussion and the building of concensus and for that reason, I am sure that admins will agree that the buying/selling/bartering of "votes" is not appropriate. Dragons flight 04:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Generally speaking, any type of vote coercion would be strongly frowned upon and likely justification for administrative action if repeated. I can't cite the relevant policy, but you might ask on Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for deletion. Don't panic too much though - if it comes out that such coercion occurred, just note it on the nomination page and the closing admin should take it into account. Deco 04:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Thanks for the constructive feedback. My greatest concern is relating to those who are trying to pull a Duke Cunningham with their votes. Should such incidents be addressed in isolation, or is it more expedient to have a notice included in the appropriate templates? At least it will not be said that the project failed to acknowledge the appearance of impropriety relating to such conduct. --Folajimi 13:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Rules have long since been established in the real world to deal with such activities as conducting a meeting or voting on an issue. Yet the Misplaced Pages does not seem to want to embrace these solutions for one reason or another as if these problems might somehow be new. Ask yourself how the bartering of votes would be handled in the real world. The answer should be not different when asked about the Misplaced Pages. Yet it seems that as with many, many other issues the policies that are followed on the Misplaced Pages and the policies that are followed in the real world do not always jive. Perhaps the Misplaced Pages needs to look seriously at its system of governance and consider ideas that exist in the real world like parliamentary procedure and the like. Otherwise I fear the Misplaced Pages may be in for some very serious trouble ahead. ...IMHO (Talk) 05:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• Personally, I am disgusted with politics and governance as it is implemented in the "real world", and I shudder to think that this project would adopt parliamentary procedures. I can't speak for anyone else, but where I'm from, you'd be hard pressed to find a more odious lot than those who run for office. Misplaced Pages may be in need of reform, but the idea that this project will look to the 'Politician's Playbook' for how to deal with the bartering would be asking "for some very serious trouble ahead." --Folajimi 14:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The point that is being made here is not that parlimentary procedure is best but rather that many of the issues of governance like the selling of votes have long since been addressed in law in the real world. Why rehash all of this stuff for no reason? ...IMHO (Talk) 16:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• The "real world" has all kinds of approaches to governance and meetings besides voting and "parliamentary procedure". Many organizations run on a consensus basis--a far truer form of consensus that Misplaced Pages, in fact, which rarely lives up to its advertised values in this regard--and active facilitation as a meeting model. We should be moving *toward* a true consensus model, not away from it in the form of vote-counting, campaigning, parties and all the other ills that your "real world" approaches bring. · rodii · 15:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree that the Wkipedia offers the potential to explore but not to the extent that it rejects any accomplishment achieved in the past in the real world on the grounds of other ills. I am merely saying you are failing to acknowledge that there is a baby in the real world bath tub which you should not throw it out with the proverbial bath water. Laws against vote fraud are quite common in the real world and should be quite common in the Misplaced Pages. ...IMHO (Talk) 16:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. · rodii · 16:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• I'm new here and it's possible that I've misunderstood the issue at hand, but I had the (strong) impression that our 'votes' are not really votes in the RL (Real Life) use of the word, since they are not intended to be binding. Rather, they represent an expression of opinion designed to help build concensus on a topic. When a decision is finally made, the 'votes' are taken into consideration, but they are not the sole deciding factor in making that decision. From what I've seen, this works out relatively well for the most part. No, it's not perfect, but no system is. One of the major differences between WP and RL is that in comparison to an on-line community like ours, most nations are actually rather small and quite homogenous. I'm not sure it's reasonably possible, or even desireable, to apply 'parlimentary procedure' to a community this large and diverse. These are just my impressions based on a relatively short period of observation; YMMV. Doc Tropics 20:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

impression

After extensive discussion on a topic and pursuing reasonable alternative solutions without success and having looked at the self posted credentials of some of those in opposition I am now left with the impression the Misplaced Pages is nothing more than a glorified grade, middle and high school teacher/student endeavor which has been exposed to the public without regard that the rules which the public are obligated to follow and the rules which students and teachers are obligated to follow are vastly different. For example: in the real world or public world it is perfectly legal to accuse anyone of anything without being in danger of committing an act of slander or libel so long as the accusation is true whereas in the Misplaced Pages any accusation is regarded in the same manner as would be talking back to the teacher in the school environment. What is truly disturbing about this is the effect on the content of some articles. It appears that some articles are being guarded by teachers from editing so that they might use them as a special online resource for their own students rather than permitting any edit that is not in line with their particular usage of the article. For instance: if a teacher wants to refer his students to a certain topic so that he can assign a task of say writing a basic computer program to perform the computation of the mathematical formula the article relates then he will naturally be opposed to anyone including such code in the article or on any other page or in an article of its own. The absence of a speller function tends to uphold this idea. I certainly hope that this is not the true nature of the Misplaced Pages and that conveyance of knowledge and truth is its ultimate goal rather than it’s serving as merely an online classroom aid for teachers and students in difference to the rules we must abide by in the real world. ...IMHO (Talk) 04:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

If a teacher wanted to reference a stable article for the purpose of a class, they would simply use a permalink to the desired version - there's no need to "guard" an article. Also, it seems clear that you're referring to some specific conflict and it'd be helpful if you could link it and tell us more about it instead of speaking in vague generalities. If you feel intimidated by a protective user, just remember that nobody on Misplaced Pages carries authority over content. Deco 06:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Again as in the past my concern is not so much for specific cases but rather for policy in general. Your comment assumes that a teacher would know about a permalink and their acknowledgement that they do not have authority over content. Although there is a specific case which relates to this discussion I am reluctant to share it with you since my experience has been that you likewise reject computational examples and data because they apparently clutter up a pristine presentation based solely upon mathematical notation although you have embraced publication of computer code elsewhere. Suffice it to say that I am highly disappointed in the Misplaced Pages for failing to require that articles include real world examples to the detriment of all users. I have the knowledge. My only concern is that others may have the knowledge as well. ...IMHO (Talk) 07:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I understand the need for a new policy; if a user is interfering with your ability to contribute Misplaced Pages, you can always seek out one of a many options for dispute resolution. You could even offer them a permalink; if they're unaware of the option, we can always let them in on the secret. If they ignore an article's talk page or just don't know it's there, placing a message on their user talk page will give them that orange box on their next pageview. Could any of those options potentially solve your problem(s)? Regards, Luna Santin 09:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

For one thing the user appears to be stalking me - showing up on every page I edit in regard to this problem (as disquised below). The issue is that this user has made the false declaration that a process which the article is about continues ad infintium for its primary real world application when in fact it is terminal. This indicates the need for clarification to be included in the article which the user refuses to allow. ...IMHO (Talk) 15:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

If another user is harassing you, it would make perfect sense to ask for some sort of intervention. If there's a serious content dispute, it makes perfect sense to cite credible sources and ask the other user to do the same; if they refuse to provide a citation and persist in edit warring and/or harassing you, there's always dispute resolution. Honestly, unless you're more specific, I'm not sure what else I can offer you here. Luna Santin 05:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

FYI see and related discussions/articles. 69.9.30.178 11:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you provide an example of a 'talking back to the teacher' type of problem? I've found that we generally have no problem with accusing article subjects of things, providing there is some sort of citation of sources. With respect to accuastions aimed at other editors, admins on Misplaced Pages are generally willing to intervene—again, as long as the accusations are clearly explained (diffs are very useful here) and civil. General complaints about 'some articles' aren't helpful, as such complaints don't indicate where the problem lies.

Please be aware that in general, Misplaced Pages is not a how-to guide or course textbook and it's not surprising that computer code, detailed methods and protocols, and classroom-type example problems are trimmed. (...With the exception of places where code is directly relevant, as in articles like bubble sort. Even then, we would be better off having an animation or flow chart rather than a lump of code.) That type of writing is more appropriate to our sister project, Wikibooks. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I can give you an example. When someone is loosing an arguement over an issue they start accusing the other person of personal attack when in fact all the other user has done is to have pointed out the truth and called attention to the other person's error. Its very similar to a classroom dicussion situation in which the teacher is wrong (if that were even possible) and the attempt is made to point this out and the teacher then defends his or her position not by addressing the issue but by accussing the student of talking back to the teacher and disrupting the discussion. There is an actual and more specific example but I refrain at this point from disclosing same. ...IMHO (Talk) 16:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Once again, in the absence of specific cases, there really isn't anything that can be done to remedy the situation. I will note that regardless of whether you're on the 'right' or 'wrong' side of an argument – and in general, often the participants in such a debate draw very different conclusions about who is 'winning' or 'losing' – it is imperative that the participants remain civil and refrain from personal attacks. Hostile editing tactics make it more difficult to edit with others in the future, and can turn off good editors from contributing. Incivility also turns discussions about facts and content into arguments based on personal animosity. If someone makes a baseless accusation of personal attack, you're usually best to ignore it—admins arent going to block you for an unsubstantiated claim. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

In this situation the need for an example and computer code could possibly be eliminated if the other user were to acknowledge that the mathematics, while capable of being applied using either decimal or integer variables, in the case of its primary real world application requires the use of integer variables only. Instead they insist the primary application continues ad infintium rather than being a terminal or a finite process due to their apparent misunderstanding of the process or possibly the entire concept. Consequently the computer code and data are needed in order to clarify this point for other users. Bottom line is that the process will in fact eventually terminate for any finite size sample since atoms are not divisible by the process and decimal numbers do not represent their numbers accurately where only integer variables do. ...IMHO (Talk) 16:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

If you're talking about half-life and you're adding material to bolster your argument, perhaps you should place the material on the talk page of the article. Discuss your interpretation and reasoning there. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Your extreme reluctance to be specific creates a very strong impression that you are generalising from a small amount of evidence. I don't recognise the alleged problem at all. Honbicot 02:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

IMHO refers to the conflict on the half-life article, though he won't state it directly. There's an ongoing dispute about adding a particularly long table about the various periods of decay, or whatever the proper term is since it escapes me at the moment, of a specific element (C-14). IMHO is trying to show that the process will eventually end with this table. Others have told him that the process could theorhetically continue indefinitely. That's the jist of it. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 03:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

What stops me from just giving myself a barnstar?

Hi,

I was just wondering, suppose I go to someone's page with a barnstar, and I copy the code,and put in on my page. I do change the name into evilbu of course.

Who will stop me?

And will the person who supposedly gave it to me ever find out?

Thanks,

Evilbu 20:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, personally, my own conscience would prevent me from doing that. ^_^ -- Grafikm 20:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, a peak at the page history of your userpage would reveal who really awarded the barnstar; giving yourself one would be considered silly. You might try and create a sockpuppet, but barnstars awarded by users who otherwise seldom edit, are also considered silly.

OTOH, I'm not aware of any rules and regulations concerning the awarding of barnstars; nor are there any rules granting special priveleges based on the number of barnstars. The issue might come up in an RfA, I suppose; but attempting to award yourself a barnstar (and getting caught) would hurt you far more than not having any.

--EngineerScotty 21:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Barnstars are nice things given to make people happy. They have no requirements and no effect. You can add your own if you want, but it's like buying yourself a Christmas card. Deco 21:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Although giving yourself one as described here -- from a third party -- is basically the same as forging someone else's signature, which is severely frowned upon. If you want to give yourself a barnstar, give it to yourself from yourself! —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Bunchofgrapes, did you know you just gave me a barnstar?

Just kidding you, but seriously one could really exploit this. Okay, so maybe giving yourself a barnstar attracts attention. But what about double account people??

I did not do it, I admit I tried it and made a preview, but I didn't submit.

Evilbu 21:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I have a feeling I'd hear about it pretty quickly, actually :-) As far as double accounts -- sockpuppets -- go, that's a harder problem, but there are a lot worse things a sockpuppet can do than award barnstars. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

It's true, you can forge barnstars for yourself. A little known fact is that your Misplaced Pages salary increases with the number of barnstars you have. Perhaps that explains why we're a bit casual about it.  :) Wikibofh_(talk) 21:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, my salary literally tripled the day I got a barnstar. Deco 21:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

To answer the question in the heading: nothing. See here, for instance: . --Dijxtra 21:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Non-notability guidleline

There is no policy or guideline that dictates anything about non-notaility - although there is that essay. Me and another person have co-written a proposed guideline Misplaced Pages:Non-notability, and I was hoping people could give us input, or help embellish the page. Thanks! Fresheneesz 07:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Why not just improve Misplaced Pages:Notability? Just zis Guy you know? 22:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Freshneesz I have a set of guidelines for notability in fiction. You want to come over and start a discussion Misplaced Pages:Notability (fiction). jbolden1517 07:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Why not? Well because its an essay - not a guideline. I don't want to cramp anyones style over there at the essay. I think my guideline proposal steps off in a very different direction than the essay does.

Perhaps I'll stop by notability in fiction. Fresheneesz 07:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

While the specifics of Misplaced Pages:Notability are not policy, that essay and citations to it on AfD and elsewhere stem from Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is fundamental, and Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information, which is policy. —Centrx→talk • 07:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

This is true, but the purpose of the guideline we have made is very different from the essay. I suppose I should have said that right off the bat - I'm in an odd mood this evening. Fresheneesz 08:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

But those all really beg the question. Given an article's subject X how am I to determine if the person notable or not? The discussion on AFD look like "X is notable" "X is not notable" and then for all but the most easy cases it just comes down to who shows up. We might as well flip a coin. What I think would make sense would be to write up some guidelines and try and build real criteria for notability. For example an article in Benet's means that a fictional character is notable. jbolden1517 12:00, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Poetry quotations

The guidelines on copyright don't mention poetry -- and certainly don't make it clear to me how much if any of a poem that is under current copyright I may include in an article. I would like to include some of a poem by Ko Chung Soo to illustrate his style, etc., but I don't know what is allowed. I have seen entire short poems cited in journals and reviews presumably with-out getting permission (certainly with-out indicating it), so? Kdammers 09:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Lyrics and poetry and Misplaced Pages:Don't include copies of primary sources talk about this and include some examples. Kotepho 09:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I suggest quoting a short portion, or several short portions that are not in order and/or contiguous. There is some leeway for quotes in reviews, but I don't think quoting the whole poem is allowed, even in a review. We remove complete song lyrics and long quotations of copyrighted text from articles, or delete the page if that's the only thing on it, and I think the same would be done for poems. I don't know about extremely short poems, but I would try to avoid quoting all of them, as well. See this, too. -- Kjkolb 09:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

No Virtual Majority

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:No_Virtual_Majority

Some people gathering around articles share the same POV. They are then able to create a "virtual" majority on wikipedia, disrespecting the viewpoint that is mainstream in the real world. ackoz 14:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Shall we understand that you submit a new policy proposal ? Also, think that plenty of mainstream viewpoints may still be POV and/or false. The criteria for an encyclopedia is definitely not mainstream, it is the state of the knowledge. Plenty of pleople may think that the earth is flat, that the world was created by way of speech, and may never have heard about atoms or quarks. --DLL 21:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Why do some articles use italics in the title?

Discussion moved to Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style. bobblewik 14:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Clarification of policy on Fair Use with regard to portals

Wikipedians in WikiProject Stargate and its associated Stargate Portal have recently been discussing the applicability of Point 9 of Misplaced Pages's Fair Use policy as it pertains to portals. To those unfamiliar with it, it states:

Fair use images should be used only in the article namespace.

As anyone can see, this poses a problem with regard to portals. It makes sense for templates, userpages, and even talk pages, but Portals are something different. User:Tango made this excellent argument about fair use on portals on the Stargate portal talk page:

" was probably written before Portals existed. A portal is part of the encyclopedia, it's not like the user space or the wikipedia space that are just there for behind the scenes stuff, portals are actually meant to be used by readers. I think fair use images ok here (assuming their use really is fair - make sure you give a rationale that makes sense for a portal, don't just copy it from the article)."

I think that, considering the purpose of portals, fair use images should be permissible in portals under rules similar to those governing pages in the article namespace. If the response is favorable, I'll draft it as an amendment to Point 9. Lockesdonkey 21:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

• I doubt that argument will fly; portals are useless without the article namespace. --Folajimi 21:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

What's your point? Of course portals don't have any meaning without associated articles, that doesn't stop the use of images on them being fair. --Tango 00:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The "article space" is an abstraction; the point alluded to encompasses all encyclopaedic content. Just because the content is in a so-called "portal space" falls short of what might be considered a suitable argument for exemption. Folajimi 12:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• In my opinion, the stargate wikiproject should not exist on this wikipedia. It suggests a fictional-perspective-centric perspective on all of the topics it would cover, and otherwise seems to encourage things that would be far more suited to a project-specific wiki (perhaps a stargate version of memory alpha?). In any case, fair use should not extend to portals merely for cosmetic purposes, and given what portals are, no other purposes seem valid. Someone should MfD the Wikiproject Stargate page too.. --Improv 21:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

• Could you clarify? You said you objected to the "fictional-perspective-centric perspective"? Isn't this something that could be solved with writing about, for example, the popularity (according to polls and other measures), and mentioning what critics have said (linking to the reviews)? Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 22:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

You say it suggests a particular perspective on articles it would cover. How can you know what perspective future articles will be written from? --Tango 00:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• First of all, if you have a problem with the way the stargate project is doing things then tell us and we will fix it. But we have a right to exist, as a perfectly lagitamate wikiproject. That however, is not the issue. The fact is that Tons of portals have pictures on them, in fact, The main page is not the article namespace but it has tons of pictures! Most portals, along with the main page have sections for featured pictures. Tons of user pages and talk pages also have pictures on them. Everybody is completely disregauding this policy already. It's a stupid policy, that everyone, including the admins are completely ignoring. (There's a pic on Jimbo Whales's userpage). I vote to Strongly, Boldy, and imidiately Delete Point 9 of the fair use policy so that the wikipedia community aren't a bunch of hypocrites. Tobyk777 22:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Much though I dislike seeming to undermine my own proposal, I must clarify:

1. Not all pics are fair-use.
2. My proposal does not call for the removal of Point 9; rather it calls for its rewording; on that point, my proposed rewording is:

'Fair use images should only be used in the article and portal namespaces. Lockesdonkey 23:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Under which conditions do you think the use of copyrighted images in portal space qualifies as fair use? Kusma (討論) 23:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

A picture within a selected article is fair use for the same reason it's fair use in the article itself. A selected picture could be fair use, especially on an art related portal (having a Picasso painting on a Picasso portal is almost certainly fair use, at least at a low res). --Tango 00:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest the policy be made more vague. Eg. "Note that the use of copyrighted images for decoration is not generally considered fair, which includes a lot of images outside the article namespace." --Tango 00:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The use of copyrighted images for decoration is considered not fair in all namespaces, including article space. Kusma (討論) 00:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

What reliable source says decoration is never fair use? Rjensen 01:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

See fair use and Misplaced Pages:Fair use. A use might meet the burden of fair use and be decorative, for example an attractive picture that also serves to identify the subject under discussion; however, a use that is purely decorative and serves no other transformative or informative purpose will not meet the requirements of fair use. Dragons flight 01:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Per Dragons flight—while decoration may fall under permissible 'fair use' under very narrow circumstances in copyright law, it is forbidden by our own policy. That policy is acknowledged to be more strict that the bare minimum requirements of law in some circumstances. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

What do you suggest for Portal:Pokémon, which has no images whatsoever. The portal is extremely bland with no images. It would be "nice", for it to use just one image in the introduction to give the portal some identity. All other portals have some "iconic" image. For example, see Portal:Geography, which with one glance you see the globe and might think "geography" before even reading a word on the page. I too would like to err on side of caution with fair use. But, do you think one image on Portal:Pokémon falls within fair use? -Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 02:00, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• Fair use is not something we negotiate on -- it's a legal matter. "Just one to make it pretty" isn't a line of reasoning that makes one bit of difference to making us compliant with the law or reasonable safeguards to keep us within it. --Improv 02:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Lockesdonkey,
Could you please give us a sample of what type of images to which you are referring, and why you feel that they should be allowed in Portals? What is needed to be known is what the context of the image use would be. I am an astriaportaphile myself, so would love to see the Stargate Portal look better with a good image or two, but let's not go to crazy, okay?
&#151;Lady Aleena talk/contribs 03:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• It seems to me there isn't really an "article" namespace. "Article space" is sort of imprecise shorthand for a vague concept. There's a main namespace, where most of the things we call "articles" live, but some things that really count as an article (for example, as someone pointed out above, the main page) are in other namespaces. The real point that needs to be conveyed is that fair use images are only appropriate for pages we think of as articles (defined somehow, and including some non-main namespace things, including portals). The distinction is between the "backstage" areas (talk, user, wikipedia, template, etc. namespaces) that are there to facilitate the work of the encyclopedia, and the "front" areas the public consumes (main, portal, and various other things). To me that makes more sense than getting legalistic about the fact that portal: technically isn't main:.

That said, it feels like concentrating too much on whether a page looks "bland" or not is losing the plot a little bit. The content is what matters. But if a fair use image can provide information, I don't see that the distinction between portals and "articles" should be a distinguishing factor. · rodii · 03:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I think visual appearances are very important. We want to attact people to WP with beautiful articles, not send them away with ugly ones. Someone said above that this is a matter of law. That's wrong. I don't think any countries copyright laws would allow us to use a pic in one part of a website but disallow us to use it in another. If you have permission to use a picture legaly, then use it whereever you want. If you put it on a non-article page that doesn't make it ilegal. This isn't about law, this discussion is about a policy that doesn't make sense. Pictures should be allowed to be used everywhere. (And they already are). Tobyk777 06:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

This discussion isn't about pictures that we have permission to use; it's about pictures that we are using without permission but under the aegis of 'fair use'. This is a much more limited concept than many editors on Misplaced Pages realize. From a legal standpoint, 'fair use' is very heavily dependent on specific usage and context. Misplaced Pages has many thousands of images which we are using under one fair use rationale or another, and which we may only use under a limited set of circumstances and on a limited number of pages.

Meanwhile, our own internal fair use policy (as distinct from the provisions of copyright law) is – under some circumstances – even more restrictive and absolute than the law's requirements. This added restrictiveness often is to make application of the policy simpler and more uniform, as most editors are not intellectual property lawyers (and don't wish to become them). TenOfAllTrades(talk) 08:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It also helps to preserve one of the two primary goals of the project, that we be composed of Free Content. Our allowance of fair use exists simply because one can't make a proper encyclopedia without sometimes quoting a contemporary work or using an historical image. We can, however, make a proper encyclopedia without maximally pretty pop-culture portals. I think some of these folks are starting to mistake Misplaced Pages for a fan site. :( --Gmaxwell 14:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It should be noticed that the above claim that the policy on fair use being only in articles is factually inaccurate. I'm tired of chasing the people who claim this all over the Wiki, as it's simply not true. --Gmaxwell 14:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair use criteria consensus discussion started

After quite a few months, I have kicked off Misplaced Pages:Fair use criteria/Amendment/Consensus. It is not a vote, but will give each editor the chance to support or oppose the amendment very clearly. I've got it going for a fortnight as obviously it needs to end some time, and there is a lack of guidance on how to amend policy. - Ta bu shi da yu 22:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Should I have included this link?

I just edited (rewrote, mostly) the article on the children's record Gossamer Wump. The spokesperson for EMI records (which bought out Capitol Records, the original issuer of the record) wrote me that the record has been reissued by EMI New Zealand, and sent me to a website where the record could be purchased. The website is NOT EMI New Zealand, but a private dealer (?) or perhaps an EMI affiliate who markets the record on the web.

I included the link in the article, because it came from an official source, and because I know that people who land on this article are most probably looking to obtain the record (just as, in fact, I had). On second thought, though, it seemed inappropriate to include what is essentially a plug for a commercial website in the pedia.

What say you all?

--Ravpapa 05:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I've been working recently on removing Amazon links from articles on books; it's generally inappropriate to link to one specific dealer IMO. Shimgray | talk | 09:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• I think we have a special link type using ISBN codes that leads to a page with automagic links to a number of vendors. I don't recall the syntax for it, but it's probably the most appropriate link of this type. --Improv 16:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Notable Family Member -- WP:AUTO, photo licensing, notability?

I was thinking about attempting to create one or two Misplaced Pages articles -- on my grandfather and grandmother, respectively. I believe they're notable because they were medical missionaries in China and India in the '40s and '50s, my grandfather being a doctor who was in China when the Communists took over (the whole family was, for a period, under house arrest), and my grandmother being not only there also offering medical care, but also a published author of books about their missionary experience and also several children's books.

I'm writing here to request some policy advice/clarification on three issues:

• First, a secondary opinion about their notability; sure, I think the above makes them quite notable, but before I start writing, I would like to get others' take on same. It's not precisely current history and she passed away before the Web really took blossom, so she doesn't have a large 'Net footprint, so I don't think they'd pass the "Google test," but I think the events as described are sufficiently notable for a person to have a Misplaced Pages article, especially with my grandmother's publication history.

As a suggestion, try embedding the material into another relevant article first. Then see if it would make sense to make a whole separate article about the person - is there enough verifiable material to work with? Are there books about them? At first glance, being a missionary and writing a book is not a particularly notable thing. Stevage

• Second, I know WP:AUTO forewarns against autobiography. As long as I'm being neutral in how I write the subject matter, and do not treat the article as if I own it, is there similar policy/guidelines against me writing this, as it's not autobiographical?

You should be ok. Stevage

• Third, with regards to an article photograph, if I have a photograph taken by a family relative, but of which I have a copy, do I need to obtain clearance from said family relative to use it? Or by virtue of being family, am I good? Not sure how, in other words, I should handle the licensing of the photograph of a relative. — Mike • 15:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

That's really between you and your relative - you would effectively be claiming to represent them. Stevage

Specific thoughts from the notability guideline: The Misplaced Pages:Notability (people) guideline makes me think that my grandmother's work would qualify as she was a "ublished author ... who received multiple independent reviews of or awards for their work." I'm not certain I can find the reviews or awards in question, but I could perhaps dig up specifics. As for my grandfather, I think his work in China and India would qualify as having "achieving renown or notoriety for their involvement in newsworthy events," but that might be to a lesser degree. Thoughts? — Mike • 15:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

You'd probably be best off either including them all in an existing article, or making one combined article for the lot of them. It doesn't sound like you have a lot of written material *about* them to work with. Stevage 16:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Naming conventinos for Portals?

There is currently a heated debate at Portal talk:Taiwan concerning the name of the portal. One editor believes the portal should remain Portal:Taiwan, though another believes it should be Portal:Republic of China. I filed a RFC, but I came here to ask is there any policy or naming conventions for portals that might assist in this matter? The argument is basically whether the portal should be the name of the geographic location or the government, and one editor proposed that two separate portals be created as well. If anything a wider consensus is all that's needed, so people are welcome to throw in their two cents as well. Cowman109 16:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

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