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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by P-123 (talk | contribs) at 22:19, 24 October 2014 (→Request). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

About David Attenborough

I saw your message on ro.wikipedia. Unfortunately, sites like YouTube often have copyright issues. For this reason, we can't allow them in the articles or in the article's talk page. Anyway, next time you can skip automatic translation. Everybody on Romanian Misplaced Pages knows English. Cheers. --Winter (talk) 00:00, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I almost forgot. The documentary was really interesting. Thank you for the message. --Winter (talk) 00:03, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for dropping by :), and for taking an interest It's been a big interest of mine for I guess a lot of reasons. Noroc! I hope that translates. Gregkaye (talk) 00:24, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

It does :D --Winter (talk) 16:13, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Gregkaye. Unfortunately, these days my spare time is very limited. I can give you a proper answer as early as Wednesday. Thanks, Winter (talk) 16:46, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

TY for reply

Thanks for your reply, in re: Hum. Sexual. article review. The sources there are in miserable shape, and I believe I was drawn to your work because of a shared commitment to good sourcing. Understand the need for priorities, but I have done all I can (as scholarly, but outside, non-expert). Any time you might wish to give a bit of time, can only help the article. Look to talk for the long list of issues with the sourcing (and consequently, likely the content). Cheers. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 19:56, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank-you for your kind comments. I've made my gaffs along the way and will try to be worthy of them :) Gregkaye (talk) 20:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Discussion of London images

I've started a discussion about images in the London article at Talk:London#Images in body of article. I'm suggesting we reduce the number of images and that would include some that you've added, so I'd be glad to hear your views. Hope to see you there. NebY (talk) 09:42, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

PS I'm taking the great liberty of changing a header level above so that your table of contents doesn't show everything after 15 July as a subsection of "Talkback". If this isn't appropriate then please accept my apologies - and do of course revert me at once! NebY (talk) 09:53, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Re: Population Matters

I started a Vietnamese translation of the English article. Note that, at the Vietnamese Misplaced Pages, we tend to keep the native name of an organization unless a Vietnamese name is widely or officially used. Thus the article is named "Population Matters". We have plenty of organization articles with English names, and I've yet to see any indication that users avoid such articles. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 11:57, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Minh Nguyễn whatever works will be most welcome. Many thanks for your interest. Gregkaye (talk) 12:21, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

reversals

You're supposed to talk, or give a link. -DePiep (talk) 22:57, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• as are you, my changes had explanations attached Gregkaye (talk) 23:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

"Mentions" decides? E.g. in ? -DePiep (talk) 23:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I was thinking more of the Jimmy Carter books. All books are better described as critical of Israel that I can see. Gregkaye (talk) 23:23, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Which single one of your first edits had an explanation -- at all? -DePiep (talk) 23:34, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Changing Category:Books critical of Zionism to Category:Books critical of Israel - the books, as far as is visible, fit better in the new category. Gregkaye (talk) 23:39, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• I declare this change controversial, as you already see. I propose you revert (into pre-situation), and you write a proposal to be discussed. -DePiep (talk) 23:41, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• How controversial? Do you think that a "Category:Books critical of Israel" does not apply? In which cases? Gregkaye (talk) 00:54, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

• DePiep, re: above questions, please substantiate or else withdraw the declaration. Gregkaye (talk) 11:27, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

'controversial' as in: the edit is not uncontroversial. So that statement alone is enough to require create consensus before editing. Note that for these pages WP:ARBPIA applies, including 1RR. So I invite you to revert the edits, and start a talk. -DePiep (talk) 11:41, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

• Category:Books critical of Zionism was created on 21:51, 3 November 2005 with comment "(started category, with categories)" by User:Morning_star with, as far as I can tell, no consensus discussions being involved. Items have been added into the category that seemed to me to have contents more related to Israel than Zionism and, copying the format of "Category:Books critical of Zionism", I created Category:Books critical of Israel. Instead of doubling content I choose to change the categorisation of books from ...Zionism to ...Israel. I initially placed "Category:Books critical of Israel" into Category:Israel but, on finding an alternative, changed this to Category:Politics of Israel. I have provided cross referencing links between the two categories. In reply to my question how? you replied: "'controversial' as in: the edit is not uncontroversial". I don't see any controversy within my actions. I would argue that there would be more controversy related to the categorisation of Jimmy Carter's writings as "Critical of Zionism". Again I ask How? pinging:DePiep Gregkaye (talk) 12:29, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

The very fact that I disagree and reverted says it is controversial. From there, you are supposed to find consensus in a talk - from the pre-situation. -DePiep (talk) 12:40, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

• DePiep In regard to the Jimmy Carter books, the only controversial thing was your reversal. Gregkaye (talk) 12:54, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Your level of involvement at Talk:Antisemitism

Looking over the talk page history at Talk:Antisemitism, , I see that you are replying to nearly every editor that posts to the page move discussion you started. Can you please consider backing away from the discussion and letting others state their opinions and reasonings? Thanks! VQuakr (talk) 03:10, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

• I started four discussions, one due to a flagrant disregard to Misplaced Pages guidelines regarding archiving, two due to the poor quality and misuse of citations in the article, three due to a form of article title that is unjustified by any content in Misplaced Pages guidelines and four perhaps an overreaction to your accusation that one of my clearly intelligible comments was incoherent. I was also the only editor to offer a defense of Israel in the discussion: Are anti-israelites considered anti-semitic? Along the way I have corrected a number of factual inaccuracies while receiving a bit of fair correction myself. I have no regret in regard to my content. At no point have I been involved in misrepresentation of content and have contributed to the veracity of the whole. Gregkaye (talk) 07:27, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

As noted above, I was referring specifically to the page move discussion. You have nearly as many replies there as all other editors combined. This is a good indication that you should listen more and write less. And yes, that post was and is incoherent in the Paulian sense. It is an outlier even given your extensive history of producing non sequiturs on that talk page. VQuakr (talk) 07:53, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

If you have arguments to make regarding the topic feel free to make them. However the position that you have so far taken in the discussion already seems strange for someone who declared support. Gregkaye (talk) 08:14, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

You have made exactly one valid argument (that most similarly-titled articles use hyphenation) and diluted it with a bunch of nonsense. I agree with the observation regarding hyphenation and consistency, and reject the nonsense. It is very simple. VQuakr (talk) 16:39, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

This is rich VQuakr for someone whose whole argument depended on red herring and erroneously applied references to "Lady Gaga" and "Guinea pigs". Your use of weasel statements in the discussion has similarly been deplorable.. Worst your long standing insult of incoherence. If you meant it in the Pauline sense (as stated above, with a link that in no way mentions incoherence), why did you not say so, or were you just trying to score points?

Oh, boy. I doubt any further attempts with you are going to be productive, but here's an attempt. Lady Gaga and Guinea pigs are both examples from the policy that you linked. They are therefore relevant - you introduced them. I pointed them out to illustrate how you were incorrect in stating that WP:COMMONNAME applied. You appear to not understand what the terms "red herring" and "weasel word" mean. My observation that your argument was incoherent was not an insult - it was directed at your argument, not at you. I piped the adjective "Paulian" to the article on the phrase "not even wrong," which is commonly attributed to Wolfgang Pauli. In retrospect, simply copying the dictionary definition of incoherent for your reference probably would have been less likely to cause excusable confusion. VQuakr (talk) 06:35, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

You insultingly described my "justification" as "incoherent".

What's your justification for the insult?

Gregkaye (talk) 20:31, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

The word incoherent is a criticism, not an insult. I said it was incoherent for the reasons I gave. I see no point in repeating myself. Please don't talk nonsense. You didn't just say "The use of..." you said theft, which is the same thing as stealing, so don't be dishonest. In any case the analogy is absurd. It is not and never was theft, because there is no loss of anything and there is no ownership of words. I have to say that I find your argument utterly disgusting and I am embarrassed to find myself in agreement with you on this issue, since your motivation is so distasteful. . Paul B (talk) 21:51, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Paul B no-single group can claim exclusive use of an ancient terminology. My family are the Britons. The name does not apply to anyone else. That would be nonsense. Gregkaye (talk) 22:02, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, it is not nonsense. Everyone in Britain is a Briton. We use do, of course, use Briton in the older sense when talking about the sub-Roman period, but often alternative spellings or other identifiers are added to avoid confusion (hence "ancient Briton" or "Brython" etc; or even the spelling Breton, when referring to the continental branch of Britons). Trying to "own" the term is both fruitless and, to my mind, displays a desire to control ethnic identity which has very unpleasant associations. Of course Jews are Semites, so you can't steal something you already have. Language does what it does, and inevitably includes ambivalance, polyvalence etc. People use it in the way that it has evolved, because we have no individual choice over usage. Paul B (talk) 13:24, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

@Paul Barlow: he knows that already. After all, he piped Britons (Celtic people) to read "Britons" because Briton is a disambiguation page, the first link from which is British people. But of course, just linking to the natural link (the disambig) would completely destroy his own argument. Interestingly, this also fits the 2nd definition of "incoherent" that Greg kindly linked above. VQuakr (talk) 06:42, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes @Paul Barlow:, I would agree that: a British person in Britain is a Briton. Those are just three of several words that make reference to a common British linguistic root. My point stands. It would be ludicrous for one group to claim sole use of British terminology and yet this is exactly what has happened with the prefixed usage of terminologies with Semitic roots. The inevitabilities of language do not include specific use of misnomers. Anti-Semite, anti-Semitic and anti-Semitism are all forms of misnomer that references a larger group of people in describing issues relating to a smaller group of people. These terminologies all do this with versions of Semitic terminologies that are in common modern day usage with several usages of the word root being involved. "Briton" is a word used in modern contexts. "Semite", "Semitic" and "Semitism" are words that are used in modern contexts. Your argument, as stated above is (in the second sense of the word), incoherent.

Sad to say though, language may inevitably do things when sufficient POV pushing is applied and, looking at loaded replies to the recent move discussions, I think that it is reasonable to suspect that this is exactly what has happened. The British have a principle: "call a spade a spade". Its a principle that I endorse. There is no reason why language should have unnecessary ambivalences or some such. Language is best used to facilitate clear communication. Gregkaye (talk) 08:37, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

It would be ludicrous for one group to claim sole use of British terminology and yet this is exactly what has happened with the prefixed usage of terminologies with Semitic roots. No, it isn't. Jewish people do not control the evolution of the English language or the definition of antisemitism, and it is quite insulting of you to claim otherwise. The inevitabilities of language do not include specific use of misnomers. Patently, demonstrably false. English is rife with, as you say, misnomers (ie, look up the etymology of "apologize.") Antisemitism means prejudice against Jewish people, even though the logical construction of "anti" and "Semite" would apply it to a larger people group. There is no reason why language should have unnecessary ambivalences or some such. Please be reminded that Misplaced Pages is not a place to promote your ideas. Good luck finding any forum that gives you enough voice to prescriptively control the definitions of words. VQuakr (talk) 15:38, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Antisemitism → Anti-Semitism : related moves

--jpgordon, Red Slash, User:Arvedui, Paul B, Pluto2012, VQuakr, Bus stop, Fleenier, Emphascore, NebY,

Pinging contributors to Talk:Anti-Semitism#Requested_move to let you know that there is a discussion related to proposed moves of similarly titled pages at Talk:3D_Test_of_Antisemitism#Requested_moves.

Gregkaye (talk) 19:11, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum reads at its website: "Antisemitism": "The word antisemitism means prejudice against or hatred of Jews." This being the case, there is little reason to title this article "Anti-Semitism". You are in fact not using as precedent the best quality sources. Many more examples exist. Bus stop (talk) 23:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• And every political decision made by the US establishment is right yes? Gregkaye (talk) 23:16, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Deletion of userbox templates

Hi, regarding Template:User still believes in handshake agreements: when you put a {{subst:tfd}} on a template, you should also create an entry on the relevant day's section at WP:TFD. You've not done this at Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 September 1; there is more info at WP:TFD#Listing a template - you've only carried out step I.

But this is academic, because it's a userbox, which are not processed at WP:TFD, but at WP:MFD. If you don't want to go through all of that, you can get the template speedy-deleted, under WP:CSD#G7 - just put {{Db-author}} on the template page, and it'll be gone in a few hours at most, rather than the several weeks that MFD seems to take. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:16, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

• Redrose64, thanks for your direction. I was under the assumption that some content might automatically appear at Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 September 1 and was wondering why it wasn't happening. I'm still learning and appreciate you pointing the way. Gregkaye (talk) 06:51, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Link and heading format

@Anomalocaris:,@Red Slash:,@Emphascore:,@Bus stop:,@NebY:,@Geofferic:,@Lisa:,@Jpgordon:,@Pluto2012:,

Pinging contributors to the discussion Talk:Anti-Semitism#Requested_move_mishandled to ask whether you would want a link placed at the end of Talk:Anti-Semitism#Requested_move so as to link to the new discussion: Talk:3D_Test_of_Antisemitism#Requested moves. How should this be correctly handled?

I would also like to suggest changing the format of the title:

 ==Requested move mishandled==

to a third tier heading as:

 ===Requested move mishandled===

This is both because the discussion directly relates to the content of the requested move and in response to the insertion of the "Requested move mishandled" discussion out of the normal chronological sequence of discussions.

Gregkaye (talk) 07:26, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye: I think it would be a good idea to place a link at the end of Talk:Anti-Semitism#Requested_move so as to link to the new discussion: Talk:3D_Test_of_Antisemitism#Requested moves. I don't have any suggestions on how to do it. I also agree that it would be good to make the "Requested move mishandled" heading a third-tier heading. —Anomalocaris (talk) 05:46, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Please do not ping me again. I have zero desire to discuss anything with you in your personal WP space. I'm sure a better place can be found for this discussion. Geofferic •_C✡ 19:43, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

September 2014

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Prefixes

Please stop adding prefixes that do not have their own article to disambiguation pages. Those pages are meant to list existing Wiki articles that a user might be looking for, not all possible meanings of a term. Also, please do not add additional links to entries that already have a blue link. Each entry should have exactly one blue link. If you intend to keep doing so much editing of disambiguation pages, you should really read through all of MOS:DAB. -- Fyrael (talk) 02:50, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I also see other issues such as primary topics and punctuation as I undo all of these. Please, please read through MOS:DAB before making any further edits to dab pages. -- Fyrael (talk) 03:04, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Move review for Anti-Semitism:Requested move

I have asked for a move review, see Misplaced Pages:Move review#Anti-Semitism, pertaining to Anti-Semitism#Requested move. Because you initiated the discussion for this page, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the move review. IZAK (talk) 08:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the thanks

...on IWBB. SeattliteTungsten (talk) 05:47, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

ANB discussion

There is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive265#Move War at History of the Jews in Nepal, and RFC review that concerns you because you were recently involved with one or more of the related Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/History of the Jews in Nepal, Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30 (History of the Jews in Nepal), Talk:History of the Jews in Nepal#RfC: Should we change article name to 'Judaism in Nepal'?. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 07:48, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• I think the question is a little moot since the Talk:History of the Jews in Nepal#RfC: Should we change article name to 'Judaism in Nepal'? is closed.

All the same I totally agree with reference to a term such as "Jews" in the title and would further approve that all article titles be this straightforward in description. In Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/History of the Jews in Nepal I saw "history" as a stretch. There is a seasonally large Jewish presence in Nepal and I have had some great moments trekking with some of these people. This presence is clearly a recent phenomena. The article History of the Jews in Nepal cites a recorded visit in 1898 as a single exception.

Perhaps the strongest argument for the title History of the Jews in Nepal is that of consistency.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant

Did you change many "ISIS"s to "ISIL" in the text today? Please would you go to the Talk page at #"ISIS and ISIL" if you did, as there are problems with this. Thanks. --P123ct1 (talk) 16:55, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

When you changed ISIS to ISIL at 2.53 UTC today the 14th, not only did you not change all the ISIS to ISIL, but you altered at least one ISIS inside a quotation to ISIL. Quotations have to be copied strictly verbatim into text. It is not clear whether you altered any ISIS to ISIL in the footnotes, but if you did, it would have resulted in broken-link footnotes, meaning readers would not be able to read the citations. An editor has gone to a lot of trouble to revert the ISIL to ISIS in the text. Please would you check to see whether you changed any footnotes or any quotations and rectify. A change as major as this should always be proposed to editors on the Talk page to get agreement first. Editors work by consensus on large changes. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:49, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello, Gregkaye, and thanks for your thanks. Hope you like the lead now. Rothorpe (talk) 17:37, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

1RR violation at Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant

Could you please revert yourself? I can see a "remove" and then an "undid" in your edit summaries, so you know what you are doing. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 20:13, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Hi Dougweller, Thanks for the 1RR info but, if the edits you contest include these two, it seems to me that you pick some strange battles to fight. Re edit: "Removed: "colloquially" from: ... DAʿESH (Template:Lang-ar Dāʿish). These names continue to be used." Can you explain? The word is not only used colloquially. Isn't this a biased misrepresentation? Gregkaye ✍♪ 07:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

You miss the point. 1RR, 3RR, a revert is a revert. Right or wrong. Dougweller (talk) 09:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The 1RR

If I dare mention it again, Greg, be careful about the 1RR. It has caused a lot of problems for editors since it came into force on the ISIS page. As the warning on the Edit page says, flouting it can lead to bans and blocks, although I don't think anyone has been sanctioned yet. Much of the trouble for us editors stemmed from not knowing exactly what a revert was (the WP guidance is not very clear), so after getting it sorted out with others on an admin's page, I added this guidance to the ISIS Talk page here. Hope it helps.

NB: Although it does not say it there, we learned that admins are allowed a certain amount of leeway in interpreting what a revert is, as much depends on the exact circumstances surrounding a revert, which is an extra problem for editors. It's awful working in a straitjacket, I know, but that's how it is. I guess it comes from ISIS being a very controversial page which is getting lots of hits from readers at the moment. All Syrian War-related pages are currently labouring under the 1RR restriction. Best of luck. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:35, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant

The hatnote to Isil (disambiguation) rather that ISIL (disambiguation) was on purpose, as the uppercase was broken (pending a move to fix a botched move). This was described (out of sight) at Talk:ISIL (disambiguation) so you probably didn't see. All fixed now, but for hours it was broken. Widefox; talk 18:42, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Widefox, I think I need to apologise for earlier suspicions. I had noticed a few instances in which a preference for ISIS had taken place so as to overshadow ISIL and Da'esh (both more accurate interpretations of the 2013 terminology). Sorry for the directness of comments. Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what suspicions you're referring to, but that seems like it might be a separate issue, as this was not ISIS vs ISIL, but the change of the hatnote from "Isil" to "ISIL" which broke it for readers for a few hours (I believe as the subsequent move (I requested) has obscured the history, but it was broken when I set the hatnote for the lowercase to workaround the temporary breakage). Widefox; talk 19:05, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Greg. I would like to point out to you the xTools analysis page for ISIL here. First, take a look at the number of Pageviews. It varies day by day (more on weekends) however there's 3.5M pageviews in last 60 days which comes to an average of almost 60k views/day. Next take a look at "Month counts". As you can see since June, there's an average of 1000 edits/month. Also there's 900+ total contributors and 283 "watchers". Also you can see the list of top contributors and when they first and last edited the page. I bring all this up to help you understand why it's not advisable to make major changes to the page (like changing ISIS to ISIL or changing to tone or meaning of the lead). I would like to ask that instead of making bold changes that you instead take your ideas to the talk page first. I've been mostly involved with trying to maintain the structure of the page (like suggesting page splits for older historical sections) and participate more in talk page discussions rather than editing the page directly. User:P123ct1 primarily copyedits the page, and other editors like User:Gazkthul are "subject-matter expert"s who help advise and correct factual details. All editors need to work together as a team. I bring this up not to discourage you from editing, rather to help you understand how to better contribute to the project without causing unwanted disruptions. Also, as you've already been warned, there's 1 revert per 24 hour rule, which is much stricter than the general 3R rule. This is strictly enforced. Now that you've been warned you are expected to follow this rule carefully.~Technophant (talk) 22:46, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

@Dougweller:, @P123ct1:, @Widefox:, @Technophant:. Please let me apologise for disruptive edits that started with the ISIS to ISIL changes with which you are familiar. They were due to my misunderstanding of coverage of ISIS which I had not checked and I should have made additional checks before making changes. I had simply looked at the 2013 Arabic title of the group, seen that "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" was the most accurate translation of the text and, on this basis assumed that this translation would naturally have wider usage than is the case. I also assumed, with I think some justification, that the acronym ISIL would be in wider usage than it actually is. While I still think that the use of ISIL still has merit on the basis of accuracy I realise I should have checked actual usage.

I appreciate that the result of my edits was disruption. This was far from my intention and I willingly admit my mistake. Gregkaye ✍♪ 08:59, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Hi again, I just happened across this edit and reverted it. All those entries were already listed, and we never pipe links per WP:MOSDAB. Please familiarise yourself with the style guide MOSDAB before editing the next dab page. Widefox; talk 01:42, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Widefox, I think that in this case I was confuse by existing content on Islamic state (disambiguation) and its several links to redirect pages.

The link labled Islamic State of Azawad redirects to Azawad; the link labled Islamic State of Waziristan redirects to Islamic Emirate of Waziristan; the link labled Islamic State of Indonesia redirects to Darul Islam (Indonesia) and the link labled Islamic state in Palestine redirects to Hamas Covenant.

I later did some searches on "Islamic state" and found articles for Azawad, Darul Islam (Indonesia), Hamas Covenant and Islamic Emirate of Waziristan. Not realising repetition I added information in "See also" in the form:

*]	
*]
*]	
... 	
*]

My links generally conformed to What You See Is What You Get principles. The link labled Azawad goes to Azawad; the link labled Islamic Emirate of Waziristan goes to Islamic Emirate of Waziristan and the link labled Darul Islam (Indonesia) goes to Darul Islam (Indonesia). I made an input error with the link to Hamas Covenant which was intended to go via the Islamic state in Palestine redirect page. This was another mistake.

In each case it was intended that users might click on a link presented with a description and arrive at the location that matched the description used but with the addition of, I thought useful, Islamic State redirect information on the page. This is a similar result as is provided by existing content. For reasons mentioned I did not realise that there was a repetition.

The Islamic state (disambiguation) page was recently brought to my attention when visiting: Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 September 7 and I made this edit. In the edit I declared: "I added some links in See also: of Islamic state (disambiguation) in this edit. If any of these links are inappropriate then that may indicate that the associated redirect namespace should be deleted."

In all this I was genuinely trying to present useful content while raising potential issues that might be gainfully clarified by people who understood the subject area better than me.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 08:59, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks very much for this. There's been a lot of talk page discussion with little resolution. Dougweller (talk) 09:23, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks too, appreciate you were trying to help. I'm not sure from your reply if you've understood that on dab pages we never pipe links. (that's links at the start of the entry, apart from style - e.g. italics). Just want to confirm that point is understood by you because you mention how WYSIWYG you feel they were. Here's an overview Misplaced Pages:Disambiguation dos and don'ts (once you're OK with that, as I've suggested try to at least checkout WP:MOSDAB so you know how to in future). Hope that helps, regards Widefox; talk 13:29, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Widefox, I knew the ruling but, in this case (and wrongly), I chose to ignore it. I considered it to be a form of "auto-correcting-piping" although I hadn't invented that fanciful terminology at the time. My knowledge of the piping ruling was one of the reasons that I made the link from the other discussion. I wasn't sure of its validity and was happy for another editor such as yourself to check. I, myself, stand corrected. Gregkaye ✍♪ 13:38, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

September 2014

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Misplaced Pages. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been reverted or removed.

• If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor then please discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page. Alternatively you can read Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant notice boards.
• If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, please seek assistance at Misplaced Pages's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

Please ensure you are familiar with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive, until the dispute is resolved through consensus. Continuing to edit disruptively could result in loss of editing privileges. Please be aware that several of us have warned you about these disruptive edits, so rolling them up into a caution seems apropriate. Widefox; talk 01:45, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive editing, as you did at Talk:Islamic state (disambiguation). Your edits have been reverted or removed.

• If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor, discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page. Alternatively you can read Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant notice boards.
• If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, seek assistance at Misplaced Pages's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

Do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive until the dispute is resolved through consensus. Continuing to edit disruptively may result in your being blocked from editing. and other edits. Did you read MOSDAB as requested before you start editing / making any more suggestions? Your suggestion indicates you haven't read the dos don'ts or MOSDAB. Suggesting big formatting errors for dab pages, when you've been asked to stop disruption on dabs seems like WP:IDHT. You've also change the hatnote and many of your edits are getting reverted. Stop now, listen to what other editors and style guides say. Widefox; talk 18:43, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• Widefox. Talk:Islamic state (disambiguation)? What disruptive editing are you talking about? What reversions? Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:31, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the technical side of editing, but on regular edits Gregkaye is no longer being disruptive, as far as I can see. --P123ct1 (talk) 17:37, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm seeing continued talkpage discussion, without indication of listening, IDHT. Specifically about the desire to change a high importance dab page (again the ISIL topic) without reading / or by ignoring WP:MOSDAB. This is repeated above. Widefox; talk 00:50, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Seriously? Widefox, you have been ignoring sound arguments offered by Mr. Granger through a talk page discussion now reaching considerable length. See: Talk:Islamic state (disambiguation)#Redirect. I agree. The use of the redirect discussed is unjustified. It presents the existence of a phantom Islamic State (militant group) page which does not exist. Gregkaye ✍♪ 05:43, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

The suggested edit at the top of that page has several uncontroversial style problems, as detailed (and not just the one controversial one you've mentioned). I'd only just asked for you to read dos and dont's (and MOSDAB) before making more dab edits, and those large errors indicate you haven't read either WP:IDHT. Did you? That is disruption. When you say there User_talk:Mr._Granger#Sorry_not_to_have_joined_the_discussion this is "unsubstantiated accusations", the context is all those issues. Widefox; talk 07:22, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Widefox, Please don't overlook the section in WP:MOSDAB on Piping and redirects. There is no justification for the use of the phantom Islamic State (militant group). Please look, listen and hear? The page Islamic State (militant group) does not exist.

WP:DABREDIR says:

"Where redirecting may be appropriate

A redirect should be used to link to a specific section of an article if the title of that section is more or less synonymous with the disambiguated topic. This indicates a higher possibility that the topic may eventually have its own article. "

Note: The disambiguation page link does not make link to a specific section of the article but to the main content of an article that should be so named.

It continues:

Linking to a redirect can also be helpful when both:

the redirect target article contains the disambiguated term; and

the redirect could serve as an alternative name for the target article, meaning an alternative term that is already in the article's lead section.

Note: MOS says "can also be useful". It does not say, as it seems you are reading, "must be used". In the current case it is a toss up between "Islamic State (militant group)" and a proposed use of "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" which was presented in a way that made direct mention of "Islamic State".

The current content of the page Islamic state (disambiguation) begins: "An Islamic state is a type of government, in which the primary basis for government is Islamic religious law."

My suggestion was also to place this text below the line to indicate: "Islamic state or Islamic State may also refer to:" and to place the related Caliphate reference as an indenture of the above.

This had the effect of tidying content and, I think, produced an improved result.

Your unjustified repetitions of unjustified accusations are reaching the point of abuse.

Please read the guidelines and also recognise that this is exactly what they are. Please read WP:PILLAR

Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:20, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I will continue to discuss the dab on that talk page (in the open thread) not here, thank you. Please stop pinging me to talk about it in many places (here, and User talk:Mr. Granger or elsewhere) and repeating and spreading suggested edits that fail basics of dab page formatting, it is disruptive. While I'm here, it's good that you're quoting MOSDAB. Did you see WP:PRIMARYTOPIC? That should help you with formatting. I suggest you seek more opinions, and compare with my comment at the top of the dab talk. What do you mean by "phantom"?

Note that I'm not the only editor that has complained about your talk page disruption. "This is a good indication that you should listen more and write less" by User:VQuakr, User:Geofferic has told you they don't want to discuss content issues on your talk page. I'm looking for an indication that you not only acknowledge that this behaviour is disruptive WP:IDHT, but realise that continuing to repeat over and over may eventually lead to a block to prevent this disruption. The warnings are there to draw a line, and I hope you will reflect, OK? Widefox; talk 10:39, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Your complaint relates to my edit to Talk:Islamic state (disambiguation) on 17 September. You have made an unjustified accusation of disruptive editing here. I am justified in making my reply. The first line of text of the disambiguation page currently relates to Islamic state. If you have issues regarding this sequence of presentation as related to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC I suggest you make them there. For goodness sake. I asked a question on a talk page. Another editor has taken up a similar theme in the discussion that follows. There was nothing wrong. Gregkaye ✍♪ 11:40, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• I see no indication of disruptive editing from Gregkaye, so I agree that Widefox's warnings seem entirely unjustified. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:57, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Several editors above disagree with you (for similar reasons above about talk page / listening). Widefox; talk 07:02, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• Widefox, Intentionally or not your recent actions have had the effect of WP:gaming the system.

You issued a warning at 18:43, 18 September 2014 with the claim of disruptive editing at Talk:Islamic state (disambiguation).

This "warning" came after: 1) your previous warning had already proven to be unsubstantiated (you even stated: "Thanks too, appreciate you were trying to help."; 2) after I asked a question on a talk page (THAT'S ALL I HAD DONE) and 3) after a discussion on similar issues raised by me had also been raised at Talk:Islamic state (disambiguation)#Redirect.

Your false accusations here have been continually reasserted despite lack of substantiation. They have also had the effect that I did not make fair contribution to the parallel discussion in which you presented lone opposition to Granger as well as other contributory editors.

In this discussion you have made irrelevant mention of editors comments.

You irrelevantly quote User:Geofferic. I pinged him once, was asked not to do so again and haven't.

You also mention VQuakr. Please understand that "Its arguments that matter in Misplaced Pages. My encouragement to VQuakr was: "If you have arguments to make regarding the topic feel free to make them." He is justified in presenting his own arguments but is as unjustified as you in any attempt to prevent other editors from presenting theirs.

User:Widefox I am pinging you now because I would like a response. You have continued to push an unsubstantiated accusation. I have demonstrated an example above in which I made apology following a situation when I had mistakenly got things wrong. Your response is up to you. Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:11, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

"Use of the term "gaming the system" should be done with caution, as it is inherently an accusation of bad faith editing." -WP:gaming the system . Of course, you may want to back this lack of WP:AGF accusation with diffs or withdraw it.

Repeatedly insisting that you want the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC styled incorrectly per WP:MOSDAB is disruption. It is up to you to seek further opinions for your controversial edit, rather than continuing WP:IDHT and creating further disruption. In any case, as others have said above, I will not discuss further on your page, thank you. Widefox; talk 07:27, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Widefox I stated: "Intentionally or not your recent actions have had the effect of WP:gaming the system" and I view this as fact. This was the effect. See explanation above.

You first placed a Template:Uw-disruptive2 warning on my talkpage following which you said, "Thanks too, appreciate you were trying to help" but, following this, you added a Template:Uw-disruptive3 warning because I asked a question. The warning stated: "Please stop your disruptive editing, as you did at Talk:Islamic state (disambiguation). Your edits have been reverted or removed". My edit was neither reverted or removed due to the very clear fact that THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. You have placed an unjustified / unsubstantiated warning on a talk page and pursued it even while losing the argument that it was based on elsewhere.

"styled incorrectly"? My suggestion was to use of a link without piping, without redirects and without parenthesis. The disambiguation term was directly presented but without the unnecessary parenthesis. Other editors took up a similar argument with similar effect at Talk:Islamic state (disambiguation)#Redirect. with the effect of an adoption of similar wording as that I had originally suggested.

MY EDIT WAS VERY CLEARLY CONSTRUCTIVE. Other editors were building on it even from before the time of your second warning.

One of those editors even came to this page to comment: "I see no indication of disruptive editing from Gregkaye, so I agree that Widefox's warnings seem entirely unjustified".

Given this context I find it astounding that you are quoting: WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT when WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT rightly applies. You may not have liked that I asked a question and you may not have liked an answer later given. This does not mean that either are wrong. Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:09, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Breed RMs

The Talk:Canadian Speckle Park and Talk:Black Hereford (hybrid) RM discussion raises similar issues to the other ones you commented in. Curious if you think there are any unclarities in the proposals; it's odd to me how severely some editors are misconstruing the nature of the proposals, and I wonder how they can be clarified to avoid this problem. Any thoughts?  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  07:28, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

•  SMcCandlish ☺ I hope that my comments have in some way helped. I am always ready to fight the cause of the use of clear terminologies and find it quite ridiculous when people would see clarity whittled away. I presume you saw the discussion on English Carrier pigeon. Gregkaye ✍♪ 08:22, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I hadn't actually, and only just now noticed the one at Talk:Strasser pigeon. I don't see this as a cause to fight, it's just proper encyclopedic treatment. We have a WP:SSF problem going on here, where specialists deeply steeped in the names of these breeds cannot fathom that they could be confusing to anyone else, and resent "outsider" interference with "their" articles, a clear WP:OWN problem. I think RM and similar processes, since they involve the entire editing community, are the only way to address this (unless it gets worse, in which case there's WP:RFARB).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  08:54, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

It annoys me that editors use loaded language against you such as "your unreflected moves" and "apparently unable" or whatever when, as far as I can see, you have consistently argued for sensible titling of topics that may not be generally known by the average reader. That gives me a thought :) be well. Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Madonna Talk

Dear Gregkaye, I have initiated a new discussion on the Madonna Talk page. I need editors to weigh in and decide if Madonna's article should follow guidelines usually followed by articles on artists known mononymously. Some discussions tend to be overlooked; this is why I'm telling you about it. Thx! Israell (talk) 17:47, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

sounds interesting :) Gregkaye ✍♪ 18:52, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Isil

Hi! You participated in the move discussion that closed this week on ISIL (disambiguation). There is currently a discussion on where the title this was redirected from, Isil, should link to located at Misplaced Pages:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2014_September_24#Isil. Please feel fee to participate in the discussion. Thanks!--Yaksar (let's chat) 07:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Israeli West Bank barrier#Names

Hi. Your edit to IWWB in the introduction that explained the Hebrew name and provided translation was a good change. It was moved down to #Names because that seemed like a better section for it. If you feel strongly, move it back... no hard feelings. Thanks. Keep on rockin'! HonourYoMama (talk) 00:33, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• TY, However I don't see why reference should be removed to Separation barrier and wall by the now barred SeattliteTungsten as well as others and why wall should be relegated to names. It is a used description. In the majority of locations where people are likely to see it, it's a wall. Gregkaye ✍♪ 14:56, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

1RR rule, re: SeattliteTungsten

Hi, 1RR is a "bright line" rule that has to be obeyed by all editors in the Israel-Palestine part of Misplaced Pages. Arguments that edits are "reasonable" have never been accepted by the administrators as an excuse. If you look at the archives of WP:AE, you might find examples where reasonableness gained a lower penalty but I think you will not find examples where it prevented a conviction. I think it is good this way, even though it causes anomalies. Having the rule as simple and exception-free as possible helps everyone to understand what they are allowed to do and reduces disputes over the boundaries. ST's penalty of 48 hours block was quite lenient and all he/she needed to do was wait it out. But instead he/she decided to commit suicide by creating a whole army of very obvious socks. This is a much more serious offence. Btw, I'm an administrator but because I'm "involved" in the I/P area I'm just an ordinary editor with regard to this case. Regards. Zero 05:12, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• Hi Zero, I hope pinging is appropriate. (Conversation relates to the very clear case of: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/SeattliteTungsten. First thing to note is that I find any case of false identity to be abhorrent. It is a case that I dispute in relation to the use Semitic in anti-Semitic when the issue is anti-Jewish and in the absence of the word professional when referring to professional wrestling when there is no sport of a competitive nature involved. I think clear presentation of identity to be amongst the most hightly important issues in Misplaced Pages and personally use my real name as my user name. Under no circumstances am I endorsing the use of a sock puppet or the breaking of a clear 1RR rule. My understanding is that the rule is there to oppose both bad edits as well as good. My query was to get the quality of the edits into context. My experience on this page in User_talk:Gregkaye#September_2014 started as a reaction to a genuine mistake of mine and then an editor chose to apply procedure to an unjustified and ridiculous extent.

It would present a very different start to the story IF User:SeattliteTungsten had originally made the right edits but just at the wrong times.

I don't think that the my comments are misplaced. As far as I can see User:SeattliteTungsten has not logged on or at least edited in the time during the procedure. As you mention the WP:AE is closed. My question related to original behaviour and the original context of this behaviour and I have added the note "Comment relating to context:" This type of information is as a matter or procedure in normal trials and my comments were added, again while not agreeing with various of the editors contibutions, out of a sense of justice. A fair representation of context is worthy of inclusion. Perhaps any response to the query on context can be placed in a collapsible box or something like that. Gregkaye ✍♪ 07:56, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Transliterations/Translations

Greg, I wanted to put my comment re the above here rather than on the Talk page, but then realised it could be seen as canvassing an edit and there are strict rules about this! That's the only reason I transferred it to the Talk page. Cheers, P123ct1 (talk) 15:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

A heads up about using ref formatting on Talk pages

I've noticed you're using reference template formatting in some of your talk page comments, such as in Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Ref formatting is generally for use only in main article space or in sandbox subpages. If you use them in the talk page space then the footnotes will auto populate the bottom of the page, separating the note from the ref in your comment and making of mess of the bottom of the page. It's general easier to use the external link format when linking out or wikilinks for things hosted here. GraniteSand (talk) 23:25, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Cheers Granite, I guess I had just pasted in some text and will try to be more careful. ty Gregkaye ✍♪ 06:07, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Caliphate

ISIL fails on both key points - they hardly have authority over the entire Muslim faithful, and there is no credible evidence that Bagdadi descends from the prophet. You can't declare yourself the Pope either. Legacypac (talk) 20:12, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• Legacypac, I could be the popeest with the mostest :0 - but would that be enough? don't answer that!

The thing is that Bagdadi can say what he likes. It doesn't mean that people will agree. Gregkaye ✍♪ 00:41, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

hi

I am providing everyone who commented in the open page move RfC - as well as the previous closed RfC - a notice of an ANI ] This has to do with a possible editor stability issue. DocumentError (talk) 14:31, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Syrian Civil War

As a result of a community decision, broad editing restrictions apply to all pages broadly related to the Syrian Civil War, such as Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant which you have recently edited. These sanctions are described at Talk:Syrian Civil War/General sanctions and a brief summary is included below:

• Sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, satisfy any standard of behavior, or follow any normal editorial process.
• If you inappropriately edit pages relating to this topic, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks, a revert limitation, or a topic or article ban.
• A one revert per twenty-four hours restriction applies to articles broadly related to the Syrian Civil War, with the wording listed here.
• Please familiarise yourself with the full decision at Talk:Syrian Civil War/General sanctions before making any further edits to pages related to the Syrian Civil War.
• Sanctions imposed may be appealed to the imposing administrator or at the appropriate administrators' noticeboard.

This notice is effective only if logged at Talk:Syrian civil war/General sanctions#Log of notifications. If you have any questions about this post then feel free to ask me. PBS (talk) 18:44, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

FYI see this edit. With regards to this edit: stop discussing the options for a different article titles until thee months after the close of the last RM (which will be early in the new year). -- PBS (talk) 11:17, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks, understood. Gregkaye ✍♪ 11:32, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Or was PBS's warning understood since the next day you started a frivolous move request on a closely related article that essentially duplicates an earlier requested move. I do appreciate your edits, especially to standardize to ISIL, but on this move request you got me stumped. Legacypac (talk) 17:56, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac You may think it "frivolous" but please assume good faith. I think you would be best to lay off criticising other editors, using the threat of sanctions as a stick to beat those you accuse of bad faith editing, and stick (pun intended) instead to commenting on the content of articles, and the merits, or otherwise, of requested moves based on the article titles policy.

The RM process will run for seven days or so and then be closed by an uninvolved editor. I would expect that once this RM is closed that Gregkaye acting in good faith will refrain from initiating another RM on Talk:2014 American-led intervention in Iraq for at least three months as presumably Gregkaye's major renaming concern for this page will either have been met or have been rejected because of no consensus for such a move. I would also expect that if the consensus is against the move, Gregkaye will refrain from initiating another "America → US" move for at least six months on any page.

-- PBS (talk) 23:25, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Odia alphabet move

I don't know why, but there's been a war going over the move for over a year now. LOL. The freakin' Constitutional change occurred near 3 years ago and even the MAIN 'ODISHA' page has been updated! BOOKS AND OTHER LITERATURE IN INDIA HAVE CHANGED TO ODIA AS WELL!!! TOO MANY EGOS INVOLVED AND HURT!!! The admins are on the wrong side too. That's why the moves are unsuccessful. Dankitydank (talk) 17:49, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Dankitydank, I like to think that its more often misunderstandings - and I speak as someone who has got some things wrong. Where are you from? Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:20, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

American

"Enemies of the United States typically refer to the nation as America."

I have no opinions on whether you add the words you propose, but you clearly are not a native speaker of English.

In the Anglosphere everyone tends to refer to the United States of America as "America" and its inhabitants as "Americans". For someone else from the Americas, common Angloshoere uasge is either use the terms "South American", "Caribbean" or name the country and/or island: Mexican, Canadian, Argentinian, Brazilian Jamaican etc.

The vast majority of English language sources will refer to the "American President". The sources will sometimes talk about the US Government or US military forces, but such terminology tends to be in a more formal setting when reporting from such places as the UN or the like.

--PBS (talk) 15:40, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

• PBS, If a president of the United States was to be announced on arrival to a function would he or she be announced as "the American president" or as "the president of the United States"?

Gregkaye ✍♪ 15:49, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

To answer your question in another way if the Queen of Canada arrives at a formal function in Washington how would she be announced? However she was announced the it would be reported in reliable sources that "the Queen ..." or "Queen Elizabeth II...". The president would be formally announced in this sort if style. A slightly less formal style (to please the Yanks who pretend not to like titles) is shown in this one State Visit by the President of the United States of America in the one article within four sentences there is "President of the United States of America", "The President of the United States" and "Previous visits by American Presidents include:" So I am not sure what it is that you are trying to prove. -- PBS (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Just that there is justification for the use of the article title president of the United States in the same way as there is also a general level of justification for the rest of Misplaced Pages's categorisation and content in Category:Politics of the United States. Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:27, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

RfC

A RfC in which you may be interested has opened here. DocumentError (talk)

Discussion: Operation Inherent Resolve

A discussion in which you may be interested has opened here. - SantiLak (talk) 19:20, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

ISIS Talk page

I have just seen the diff in your last comment on that long thread about jihad. The very last thing I would want is for you to lose editing rights, Greg. You are too valuable to lose. Just wanted you to know this. I know how strongly you feel about some things, and personally share all your views on this dreadful group. We just badly clash on what NPOV is! --P123ct1 (talk) 16:35, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

removed content: Gregkaye ✍♪ 06:00, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

@User:GregkayeNow that you have been given the notification you can be subject to general sanctions. That can include blocks/bans without warning. ~Technophant (talk) 08:13, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I've been informed that you were already on the notify log. The duplicate entry has been removed. I apologize for the oversight.~Technophant (talk) 17:08, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

October 2014

Please stop your disruptive editing, as you did at Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Your edits have been reverted or removed.

• If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor, discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page. Alternatively you can read Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant notice boards.
• If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, seek assistance at Misplaced Pages's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

Do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive until the dispute is resolved through consensus. Continuing to edit disruptively may result in your being blocked from editing. The talk page seems to indicate that you are intentionally editing against consensus. ~Technophant (talk) 08:19, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Technophant Can you be specific?

You are really pushing your luck going ahead with further reversions as you did below. Most people would have stopped all reversions and sought clarification first. You could get sanctioned right now without any further edits.~Technophant (talk) 16:40, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

As you know I had asked you to substantiate the warning that you gave above which you declined to do. You do whatever you see right according to your values as will I. Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:48, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps it is irrelevant, but those edits clearly arise from strong moral convictions. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you reinsert previously removed material as you did here without consensus in violation of ISIL sanctions, as you did at Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.

The supposedly controversial and relatively brief text reads as follows:

• Widespread Islamic criticism of ISIL has included an open letter from 126 Sunni scholars to "the self-declared Islamic State", indicating the group as Khawarij and stating that its sacrifice, without legitimate cause, goals, and intention, is "not jihad at all, but rather, warmongering and criminality". Pakistani clergy also condemned it as a "violent group" whose "actions are against the teaching of Islam".

This text had been removed from the ISIL page without discussion in this edit. I replaced the text as the last paragraph of the lead. Islamic criticisms of ISIL have rated extremely highly in news the news and they are arguably of more relevance to the controversial, genocidal faith based group than designations as "terrorist" by national governments. Technophant Why cut or relegate the Islamic criticism? I would appreciate reply because I find this beyond comprehension. Gregkaye ✍♪ 17:12, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

1. "Muslim leaders reject Baghdadi's caliphate". http://www.aljazeera.com/. {{cite news}}: External link in |agency= (help)
2. "Another battle with Islam's 'true believers'". The Globe and Mail. Retrieved 13 October 2014.
3. "Over 120 Muslim scholars reject IS ideology". The News International, Pakistan. 26 September 2014. Retrieved 13 October 2014.
4. Cite error: The named reference OpenLetToAlBagh was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
5. "Isis is 'an offence to Islam', says international coalition of major Islamic scholars". independent. Retrieved 8 October 2014. More than 120 Sunni imams and academics, including some of the Muslim world's most respected scholars, signed the 18-page document which outlines 24 separate grounds on which the terror group violates the tenets of Islam.
6. AFP. "Pakistan Ulema Council condemns IS militants". Retrieved 17 October 2014.
7. "Pakistan ulema council condemns IS group". Retrieved 17 October 2014.

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

• Please see my proposal on ANI to "I propose to drop my complaint here if Gregkaye takes his issues to Dispute Resolution and agrees not to make potentially controversial edits (including furthering talk page disputes) until the DisR is closed." PLease take me up on this.~Technophant (talk) 01:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

ISIS Lead edit

Good and ingenious solution, Greg. :) --P123ct1 (talk) 09:07, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• P123ct1 I'm quite annoyed at myself for not thinking of it earlier... but thinking about it now I may have partially blanked it out after making such a hash of footnotes when I first got to the page. For whatever reason I couldn't think my way past in page comment. It was obviously on my mind a lot and refs even came to mind. Of all choices this is my preferred option.  :) We'll see what other editors think. Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:13, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

The fog of battle! :) What a relief, phew. If the others don't support it, it would be extremely unreasonable of them, I think. I will argue for it if it comes to that. :) Apologies for my stridency sometimes, btw, it gets the better of me. :( --P123ct1 (talk) 09:43, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Greg, have just copy-edited the quote in that footnote and in "Criticism" (punctuation & format) and got to thinking about the word "sacrifice". It struck me as a bit odd first time round, and have just seen it is your paraphrase of the Independent report. (I assume that was your edit in "Criticism".) Do you think the uninformed reader will understand what is meant by "sacrifice" in that context, i.e. that true jihadists sacrifice their own lives in the pursuit of jihad? I was wondering if "actions" (the Independent's word) or some other word might be better, or if the passage in "Criticism" should be expanded to explain "sacrifice". If you think the word is okay and readers will pick it up from the quote anyway, that's fine, although I can't imagine readers look up all the citations. Do you see what I mean? Horrors, I hope some admin doesn't think I'm canvassing an edit! Perhaps this should be on the Talk page. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:40, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

The sacrifices wording came straight from the document. I am sure there are many ways that the wording can be arranged about which I'm not overly concerned. I was aiming for a perhaps anal level of accuracy but, as you rightly note, other issue may take precedence. Whatever works, works. Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:49, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

(we can fight about it later, Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:51, 21 October 2014 (UTC) :) I'll delete this

Oops, didn't read the document. "Sacrifice" is there, so have adjusted the quotation in "Criticism" to include that word. It reads now as the document reads. :) --P123ct1 (talk) 11:27, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Your "jihadist" footnote edit got reverted today (not by one of the regulars). I have just restored it. --P123ct1 (talk) 01:13, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Genuine apologies for earlier remarks. I had been confused after earlier comments in this thread as to why you hadn't added anything publicly. Gregkaye ✍♪ 15:09, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

P123ct1, Oh well, The above still holds but I guess I should have read the rest first. Gregkaye ✍♪ 15:30, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Requested move by blanenicholas

Thanks for getting back so quick on the changing of a page title. Can you walk me through the next steps to change "Amani and Aytan" to "Going Deep with Amani and Dan"? I am new to this. We are all on board with making mention of the old show name but I am not sure how to make that edit and then what to do after that to ensure the title is changed.Blanenicholas (talk) 02:06, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Blanenicholas Its a pleasure. Your request seems quite legitimate as the new name, as I mentioned, seem to be the main term of reference that is widely used. Having seen this my proposed condition became a simple suggestion of request that a reference to the previous name of the show be added to the article page. An addition like: (formerly Amani and Aytan) at the top or: The show changed name from "Amani and Aytan" on (date). It is mainly a suggestion regarding page usability so as to facilitate internet searching regarding previous names. The choice whether or not to add such an edit or what form it should take is yours. Gregkaye ✍♪ 04:34, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Request

Please do not keep criticising and telling me what to do. I will do as I think fit. If you find it unacceptable, there are channels for dealing with it. I am very tired of having my AGF thrown back in my face. --P123ct1 (talk) 13:54, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Acknowledged. The important thing is that editors can themselves be honest, truthful and direct. I got in contact with the other editor, asked questions and received evasion. Some things need to work themselves out. Gregkaye ✍♪ 14:57, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I've always appreciated you are just that, Greg, and I have a bad temper :( . Worldedixor has upbraided me for moving one of your comments on the AN/I. I did it to get the time sequence right. It was (on the 23rd):

Wheels 1:41 - You 8:43 - You 7:08 - which I changed to - Wheels 1:41 - You 7:08 - You 8:43

For some reason I thought the 8:43 comment was Wheels's! Have restored it to what it was originally. (Note to self: don't interfere.)

This AN/I is terrible. Never wanted a ton of bricks to fall on you. I didn't know about the AN/I until it happened. I've no idea what happens next.  :( --P123ct1 (talk) 19:28, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I would have contacted you sooner but, ironically, I have been busy with training in a religious paramilitary organisation. Regarding the AN/I, it all relates to one revert and, in fact, I am lucky that it wasn't within the 24 hour period. I had thought it had come a lot later. The other raised issue relates to my insertion of Islamic criticism into the last paragraph of the lead of an article pertaining to an Islamic organisation is far from balanced. This criticism had previously been presented as fist thing in the second paragraph of the entire article, was then relegated to the second to last paragraph, then the last and then, without discussion, was repeatedly removed. There is also no ruling a against POV so from someone and I find it totally hypocritical for someone who constantly promotes his own POV through spin and manipulation to plaintively present, "we just need to see this POV pushing and edit warring to stop".

Some reference to Technophant's offensive and demeaning content is found at Talk:ISIL#Use of "Islamic State" at least in the infobox. A second derision was then inserted. I have only ever given one personal attack on anyone in my history in Misplaced Pages and it was warranted. There is only so far you can accept people's excuses of ignorance, of not checking, of not reading clearly or of not thinking it important to check. Whether consciously or not to my mind its "wilful" manipulation. This is an editor who offers to put in a "good word" for certain editors in dispute and who will expend great energy in pursuit of tearing down others. A second derision was inserted.

The thing that has really fried my brain in the last few days relates to the badgering thread at User talk:Technophant. I wanted to raise this with you sooner but my values are that I don't talk about people until I get to grips with the facts and, in this situation, this grip was frustratingly elusive. What was clear was that the timing of the warnings and retractions was deeply suspicious. I raised related question with RGloucester on Technophant's talk page which I there found to relate to Technophant's "has been removed" entry and Greyshark09 further intervened to place a link to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard. I find it inconceivable that still no apparent attempt has been made to rectify the situation.

I also object to the way that my questions to Techophant are consistently handled with the evasion and spin which are characteristic of Technophant's edits. Either that or, to suit, questions are flatly ignored. Within this context I think that my "I have every right to be wary" statement is more than justified. In my book and in relation to battleground tactics evasion comes high on the list as is the irrelevant presentation of "like", "value and respect" in some veiled bid for moral high ground. Also came the deceitful spin that I have "ferventaly argued against the use of the word "jihadist"'. It is deeply concerning if he thinks this was my argument. I have consistently argued that the wording can remain in place with appropriate qualification but have received no help from other editors to find a way to do this.

The galling thing is that also, for want of better timing or of better clarity of thought, none of this would have happened. I just want people to live. Its not a bad POV to have.  :'"-( Gregkaye ✍♪ 05:51, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I think the trouble is that Technophant wasn't in on all the discussions about "jihadist" and all the changes to the Lead and you have suffered as a result of it. He was away for some time before you arrived and his edits are more about the technical side than the content. I couldn't follow all the discussion on T's talk page about the notices but it could be that he isn't familiar enough with handling them, I just don't know. (Can't say more in this goldfish bowl.) I don't like to see you embattled like this, although I know I have been contributory to it with my comments on the AN/I. I was hoping for a softer approach, as advocated on the Help Desk, with some kind of dispute resolution. I wanted to modify one of my comments about you on the AN/I, but know if I did there would be no end of hassle from Worldedixor. (The trouble there has a long and very unpleasant history.) I think I may risk it. If this wretched "jihadist" business crops up again on the ISIS Talk page, why not state once again very clearly your position that the wording can stay with appropriate qualification? The efn might be accepted. I can't at the moment think how else to help in this awful situation. One good thing is that some editors recognise and respect your motives in editing the Lead (and the article as a whole) even though they may not agree with you on some things. (I will try not to be so aggressive in future.) I don't know how to stop this runaway train (the A/NI) and Technophant seems to have stopped editing temporarily. It may exhaust itself and the admins will take a decision. I think everyone has had their say now. Apologies for the distractions with Worldedixor and myself on the AN/I, but he cannot make wild allegations and not expect rebuttal, I have a reputation to protect. All this must be very galling for you, given your peaceable stance on things (I have read your userpage). WP can be a bearpit and it has nearly stopped me editing in the past (before you arrived on the ISIS page). Just hang on in there. :):) --P123ct1 (talk) 08:19, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

You pinged. Sorry if I moved that comment back to the wrong place. I should leave stuff like this alone. --P123ct1 (talk) 08:26, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

P123ct1, I think that it was inappropriate for Technophant to join this particular loop and this raises the question as to why he choose to get quite so actively involved. You have done some reading around my involvements in Misplaced Pages. Read his.

I can't comment on any background issues related to your personal involvement with Worldedixor but for my part I have always found you to be direct, honest, straightforward and, from what I have seen, to deserving of a generally high level of reputation. My hope is that the two of you can find peace. Just keep this in mind. If relevant, I would be more than happy be involved in any private (as much as that is possible on Misplaced Pages) or public dispute resolution. Also, if anything ever comes up between the two of you feel free to ping me a reference here or whereever.

My personal perception is that the three of us are all towards the higher end of the emotional spectrum which I personally consider to be a strength, albeit one that also brings additional challenges.

My hope is that, if Misplaced Pages would be an appropriate avenue for him, WE can get into gainful contribution in Misplaced Pages.

Reputation is often a touchy issue. For me one of the things that I generally take most note of is when anyone can say, on any issue and by any wording and in a non forced situation, "I was wrong". I will always take people at face value but whenever I see something like that then my trust increases. My suspicion is that grudges may involved between the two of you and that, while battleground can work in many ways, I may have seen more aggressive content from WE (and I may strike this WP being what it is). On-line contacts are strange. In real life people in dispute can end up being good friends. Sadly I haven't seen evidence of the same on the internet. Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:28, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words. They mean a lot to me. I have tried many times to reconcile with Worldedixor in the past but have got nowhere. Not meaning to denigrate him in any way at all, I think you may understand a little more if you read the RfC/U, to get the background of the clash there. He has not been sanctioned yet, and I am glad to see he is back on the ISIS page with some edits. I hope my encouragement helped and that this will continue, and if there is no trouble there he may not need the topic ban the editors and admins talk about on the RfC/U. I used to keep quiet before the RfC/U and not respond very much to trouble between us on the Talk page, but have become more "battleground" since the latest trouble (which began only a few days ago). He was away for a month and I could edit in peace. I want this to continue and will not rise to the bait on the Talk page, but who knows it may not come to that. You are right about the high emotional level; I think the three of us are the worst for that on the ISIS page. Hadn't noticed that before. However, I was so much meaker up to shortly before you arrived you wouldn't recognize me! Got off to a bad start when I jumped down your throat about "terrorist" and those ISIL footnotes! I can laugh now, hope you can. Ironical that we went over to ISIL not long afterwards. :{
Thanks for the offer of mediation, may take you up on it, if it comes to that. He is a good and careful editor, but quarrelsome and this has been so destructive. The sad part is that we started off so well and collaborated very well on edits (if you go back to the discussion in July about the country terrorist designations). You may be just the person to reconcile us. Btw, I know Technophant (US) quite well and he isn't manipulative, so it must be something else. He doesn't like troubles on the page and I know he is upset that his attempts to sort them out have backfired on him; he has asked me to tell editors that. Probably like you, am waiting with bated breath to see what happens next on the AN/I.:{ --P123ct1 (talk) 10:40, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

My old Biblical teaching said that we may be refined like gold in the fire, or something like that. It also said to "test everything and hold on to the good." We acknowledge and deal with the bad with clear reality and work with what remains. Good god I sound like a new age hippy.

Whether intentionally or not Technophant is manipulative. Its also fair that he stands for himself. I already take exception to his irrelevant self endorsements and don't think it is right for this to spread to other people.

That risks (being slightly flipant) going down the road of Cabal. Have you seen this hilarious list? Like I say though, I don't bear grudges but seriously people should fight their own battles (and answer their own questions if I can add that). Having said that, if there was an AN/I or similar I don't think I would hold back. There is another Biblical saying that those who live by the sword will die by the sword (here lies another potential problem with fundamentalism). Things will need to move some for me to gain trust but this can come from perspectives of his editing not yours. In any case I had developed the perspective that, if Technophant is a loose (or wilful) cannon, he is your loose cannon. This isn't good.

In regard to Worldedixor I also want to keep on the right side of him in the continued hope of that bit of translation. I guess I can be manipulative too. :) Gregkaye ✍♪ 11:21, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

P123ct1, I appreciate your suggestion to state once again very clearly my position on jihadism on the talk page. If you think this wouldn't it be sensible for you to remove your comment at Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant#The word "jihad", criticism and disruption first. It also seems like tricky advice for me to follow while your comments in the AN/I still say support. You also say that User talk:Technophant is not manipulative and yet his prejudging comments remain within the same thread so as to state: NOTICE: Gregkaye (talk · contribs · logs) has repeatedly reverted or reinserted edits that violated NPOV and talk page consensus. His "please refrain from discussion here" comments also persist. Gregkaye ✍♪ 15:30, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Which comments in the Talk page, Greg? Do you mean where I rudely said, "The Gospel according to Editors"?! That was a cheap shot in retrospect, sorry! Btw I tried reinserting the efn footnote after "jihadist" earlier today, but was swiftly reverted by Felino. I have amended my "Support" comment saying I didn't think AN/I was such a good idea after all or that there should be a topic ban. Did you see it? We need some guidance on what to do about this dispute as it has reached deadlock. I don't want you to lose editing rights - I know I have been contradictory about this, btw - and it seems a bit childish to "ban" or "punish" someone for not agreeing with other editors, so perhaps dispute resolution might be a better way, where outside editors mediate editors' views. I am inexperienced about these various regulatory noticeboards, disciplinary boards, etc, which is why I have asked for advice on this on the AN/I (I put it in bold). Even Technophant had his doubts early on; I was quite surprised to see him say dispute resolution might have been better. We have not discussed any of this in emails, btw, which may seem odd, and the RfC/U came as a surprise as well. I agreed as I was pretty desperate about Worldedixor by that stage. I trusted T. as he has so much experience in WP. (Btw, Worldedixor has been editing for about eight years, I think. I've only been editing since February this year.) Let me know which bit of the Talk page you were referring to, won't you? I am trying to think of the best way to put across to recalcitrant editors why the efn footnote would be harmless. I would have thought it would be a good compromise, as plain "jihadist" still follows the RS guidance, and yet it links very unobtrusively to where the criticism is in the article; it is not like a regular footnote. I think you agree about the ordering of Lead paras and the last one now, don't you? (Though the last one will keep changing shape!) Sorry about this meandering reply, but I think that was all. --P123ct1 (talk) 16:57, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes it's basically the edit you mention. The AN/I is trumped up. I see no reason to make any applications and I am just looking to move on. There are a few editors who do nothing or very little for the page who may have taken this on as a crusade. Your edit as mentioned has been up for quite some time now and will already have made a big impression. Gregkaye ✍♪ 17:31, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Am not quite sure which edit you're referring to there. I'm not sure my comments are as influential as you think. Editors are more independent-minded than that, aren't they? Anyway will rectify. You sound fed up and battle weary, which is hardly surprising. When you say move on, I hope you don't mean move on from the article. :( ---P123ct1 (talk) 18:40, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, you see that I am trying to see things through with the AN/I and want to see things covered both there and on the talk page so I guess I'm looking to stay :). Its basically the 13:33, 23 October 2014 edit which is the current last word on the thread. You are often the voice of mediation and clarification on the page and I think you are definitely listened to. You have deleted things before. Gregkaye ✍♪ 18:49, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I have amended my comment in this way to get in the part about the efn, which I was going to do anyway as I said above, so if there are any spies watching it's hardly a canvassed edit! I think this is right and that the efn (which I've called a "footlet") should be appended to "jihadist". I knocked out the time and date when amending it, but I think this is the 13:33, 23 Oct comment you were referring to. I am very flattered by what you say and wasn't aware of being listened to! I didn't do any strike-through this time, which I am not sure is a violation of some WP policy I don't know about. Do you know? Hope this is the entry you were referring to. --P123ct1 (talk) 22:19, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

RM notification

Since you have participated in at least one Requested Move or Move Review discussion, either as participant or closer, regarding the title of the article currently at Sarah Jane Brown, you are being notified that there is another discussion about that going on now, at Talk:Sarah Jane Brown#Requested move #10. We hope we can finally achieve consensus among all participating about which title best meets policy and guidelines, and is not too objectionable. --В²C ☎ 17:14, 24 October 2014 (UTC)