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Revision as of 23:16, 14 April 2007 editZurishaddai (talk | contribs)2,641 edits →trolling for young people: reply← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 17:18, 24 December 2024 edit undoRemsense (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Template editors58,621 edits →Concern About a New Contributor
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			==Obvious sock threatening to take legal action==
			{{atop|1=VPN socking blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:41, 22 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			{{atop|result=IP 2409:40D6:0:0:0:0:0:0/32 range block has been blocked for 6 months. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:15, 18 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			] has been socking to edit a wide range of caste articles, especially those related to ]s . This range belongs to ] and has been socking using proxies and VPNs too. Many of which have been blocked. Now they are threatening to take legal action against me "{{tq|but how far we will remain silence their various optimistic reason which divert my mind to take an legal action against this two User}}" . - ] (]) 11:51, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Just as ignorant as he is known longtime abnormal activation and especially on those of ] article see his latest revision on ] you will get to urge why he have atrocity to disaggregating ] but pm serious node i dont mention him not a once but ypu can also consolidate this ] who dont know him either please have a eyes on him for a while ] (]) 12:06, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
	__NEWSECTIONLINK__
			:But wait a second as per ] i dont take his name either not even so dont even try to show your true culler midway cracker and admin can you please not i am currently ranged blocked as my network is Jio telecom which was largely user by various comers] (])
	]
			::Please tell me there's a language issue at play here, and that the IP didn't mention ] and use a racist slur in the same sentence there... —''']''' (]) 12:26, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::I think it's both. ] (]) 12:37, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Well, we linguists don't like anecdotal evidence, but I'll provide some: I (non-native speaker of English, with a linguistics PhD) had to look up all the potential candidates for a slur in that post, and when I did find one it's not one I'd ever heard. However, "crackers" is an insult in Hindi, so I'd say it is most likely a PA, just not the one an American English speaker might understand it as. --'']'' <small>] ]</small> 13:02, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::At least in the South, an American would recognize ] as a pejorative. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 13:19, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Sure, but the IP user who used the word said they are in India, and their post contains various typical non-native speaker errors. ("culler" instead of "colour", for instance) --'']'' <small>] ]</small> 16:31, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::<small>Funny thing is you go far ''enough'' south it wraps back around again: ] - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:24, 17 December 2024 (UTC)</small>
			* Observation: the IP just on the talk page of the ] article. It's peripheral, and the IP is pretty clearly involved. Is this a bad-faith edit by the IP, or should we just take their suggestion and extended-confirmed protect the page?... —''']''' (]) 12:54, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:Is there a Dudi ]? Though I will note there is a lot of overlap between the "Indian Subcontinent" and "South Asian social strata" topic areas. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 21:59, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			*Noting that this person (Truthfindervert?) has taken to using VPNs. I’ve blocked a couple today. --] (]) 22:15, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Disruptive editing and WP:TALKNO by ] ==
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			The main issue with this editor at the moment is disruptive editing based on continuous abuse of ] and ]. Issues began when this editor . They did it and and .
	== Admin ] and his personal attacks, insinuations, and defamations. ==
			Instead of starting a discussion on the talk page of the article, the user came to ] to let me know of their opinion of my contributions. When I on the talk page of the relevant article, the user and according to their POV. When I let them know that this was highly inappropriate according to ], both and , they ] stating {{tq|ever since the stupid Misplaced Pages Dec. 2019 encryption protocol upgrade, to able to edit or view Misplaced Pages at all from my home computer, I have to use an indirect method which involves a non-fully-Unicode-compliant tool. I couldn't even really see your signature that way, and so didn't know to try to avoid changing it|q=y}}, which I had never heard of. In any case, they kept reverting the content supported by the reliable source, they also kept attempting to apply their POV to the discussion heading and and . I that I had and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, and they went ahead and .
	I could provide a list of diffs. But it is easier if I just direct you to the current problem page: ]. Use the find command of your browser to look for "Humus" on the page, and check each occurrence until you find his replies to me or "Bless sins." Start with the section titled "Proposal to rename" and go down the page. It will be pretty obvious what I am complaining about concerning his treatment of me and the user "Bless Sins." Here is a link to the last revision:
			<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)</small>
	*http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Al-Aqsa_Intifada&oldid=121777542 --] 22:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
			:The other user in this case is ]? This looks like a content dispute over whether the article is on the English version of a German-Arabic dictionary or the dictionary itself. ] (]) 15:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
	: I invite the community to take a look at ] and below. Note how 2 problem users: ] and ] are trying to impose their POV against the results of survey and against scholarly research. didn't help, so here we see another attempt to intimidate an opponent in content dispute. ←] <sup>]]</sup> 22:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
			::Yes the is indeed about ]. I see the content dispute as stemming from the fundamental conduct issue, which has manifested itself most egregiously with insisting on violating ] repeatedly even after I that I had and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, after which they went ahead and . ] (]) 16:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
	::Thanks for proving my point. I don't have a POV. And there was no survey or poll. Trying to follow wikipedia guidelines is not using WP as a soapbox. You have now amply proven my point about your method of personal attacks, insinuations, and defamations. And I proposed using both article names in the title in the last section of the talk page before making the incident report here. "Second Intifada (Al-Aqsa Intifada)." So how does that fit into your POV-smearing attempts? --] 22:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
			:::The heading dispute is between a date heading, and a descriptive heading? that's not really reformulating your entry. ] (]) 17:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
	::: Girls, girls, calm ''down''. Keep it polite. ] 22:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
			::::It's a conduct issue. ] (]) 19:58, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::But what conduct issue? TALKNO doesn't forbid changing headings. In fact the wider guideline makes it clear it's perfectly acceptable "{{tqi|Because threads are shared by multiple editors (regardless of how many have posted so far), no one, including the original poster, "owns" a talk page discussion or its heading. It is generally acceptable to change headings when a better heading is appropriate, e.g., one more accurately describing the content of the discussion or the issue discussed, less one-sided, more appropriate for accessibility reasons, etc. Whenever a change is likely to be controversial, avoid disputes by discussing a heading change with the editor who started the thread, if possible. It can also sometimes be appropriate to merge entire sections under one heading (often preserving the later one as a subheading) if their discussions are redundant.}}" To be blunt, if you don't want editors changing the headings of sections you start, don't use such terrible headings. I definitely recommend you stay away from ANI since changing headings is quite common here. ] (]) 06:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Actually I missed the signature issue. That's far more concerning unfortunately lost IMO partly because you concentrated on silly stuff. ] (]) 06:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::&lrm;إيان: I suggest you stop messing around with the section heading since it's a distraction which could easily lead to you being blocked. But if AnonMoos changes your signature again, report it and only that without silliness about section headings, mentioning that they've been warned about it before if needed. ] (]) 06:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
			I wrote a long and detailed explanation on his user talk page as to why the date-only header is basically useless in that context, but he's still for some peculiar reason fanatically determined to keep changing it back. Frankly, I've basically run out of good-faith reasons that make any sense -- except of course, his apparently unshakable belief that he has certain talk-page "rights", which according to Misplaced Pages guidelines he does '''not''' in fact have (outside of his own personal user talk page)... ] (]) 23:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Is trolling allowed on incident boards? ]. --] 09:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			:{{replyto|AnonMoos}} I don't see a problem with changing the heading but why on earth did you change their signature multiple times ? That is indeed a clear violation of ] since the signature was perfectly valid per ]. In fact your change was far worse since it changed a perfectly valid signature which would take other editors to the contributor's talk page and user page into an invalid one which lead no where. If you're using some sort of plugin which does that, it's your responsibility to manage it better so it doesn't do that ever again especially if you're going to edit talk pages where it might be common. If you're doing that intentionally, I suggest you cut it out or expect to be indeffed. ] (]) 06:48, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::Wrong section is it? Fail to see why this requires any admin attention. Obviously a ]. --]<small><sup>]• ]</sup></small> 23:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
			::], this is not good to see. Don't rewrite or reformat other editor's signatures. There is no reason to be doing this unless you are trying to provoke the other editor. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
			::: For what it's worth, AnonMoos stated earlier that the changing of the signature was a unintentional technical issue, due to his use of some "non-standard tool" in accessing the internet . This seems plausible, as similar apparently unintentional changes to non-Ascii character data have happened in edits of his before (e.g. ). But if he knew of this issue, it's rather disappointing he let it happen again some days later . Equally disappointing is the extremely aggressive rhetoric and acerbic tone with which he has been escalating this essentially harmless, good-faith content dispute from the beginning. ] ] 10:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I just can't fathom what tool they're using to get around the HTTPS requirement to edit Misplaced Pages securely. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Should be impossible as it's required to even access the site in the first place according to ]]<sup>] </sup> 16:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::<strike>Looking at his talk page it's been going back to at least 2011]<sup>] </sup> 16:17, 19 December 2024 (UTC)</strike>
			:Guys, I do not deliberately set out to modify signatures, and when it happens, I am not usually aware of doing so. As I've already explained before in several places, since the December 2019 encryption protocol upgrade (NOT 2011!), the only way I can edit (or view) Misplaced Pages at all from home is by an indirect method which is not fully Unicode-compliant. To change this, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection, which would permanently disconnect my older computer, which I still use almost every day.
			:Meanwhile, this thread has been set up so I can't add a comment to it from home without affecting Unicode characters, so I was unable to reply here for 36 hours or so. If I'm silent in the future, it will be for the same reason. ] (]) 01:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Misplaced Pages uses Unicode characters (] encoding). Anyone who cannot edit without corrupting such characters should '''not edit'''. ] (]) 03:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Whatever, -- I was using them perfectly fine until December 2019, and still use them perfectly fine on public WiFi, but in December 2019 a requirement was imposed that you can't access Misplaced Pages '''at all''' unless you can handle encryption algorithms and protocols that weren't introduced until the mid-2010s. I have a 2012 web browser on my home computer that handles UTF-8 just fine, but 2012 simply wasn't good enough for the Misplaced Pages developers -- you had to have software that was almost up to date as of 2019, or you would be abruptly totally cut off. If you can drag up the relevant archive of Village Pump Technical, I and others complained at the time, but our concerns were not listened to or considered in any way. The basic attitude of the developers was that if you weren't running almost up-to-date software, then screw you, and if your computer is not capable of running almost up-to-date software, then double screw you! The change was announced for January 2020, but was actually implemented in mid-December 2019, apparently because they were so eager and anxious to start excluding people. It wasn't one of Misplaced Pages's finer moments. Since that time, I have had to use an indirect method to access Misplaced Pages from my home computer, and I don't feel particularly guilty about it (other people's obnoxious behaviors in 2019 have done away with most of the guilt I might feel)... ] (]) 20:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::...] was created in ''1994'', and became an official specification in '''2000''', not "mid-2010s". I'm not sure what 2012 web browser you're using, but if it's not able to handle HTTPS not being able to access Misplaced Pages with it is the least of your browsing concerns, given that 85-95% of the World Wide Web defaults to it now. Also I hate to think of how many security holes your ancient computer has. I'm going to be honest: with a brower setup that old it isn't safe for you to be on the web ''at all'', and the security hole that lets you access Misplaced Pages without using a secure connection should be fixed, because that is ''not'' working as intended and is - as mentioned - a security hole. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:18, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::You unfortunately don't know what you're talking about. New ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL METHODS have been introduced ''within'' HTTPS from time to time. I was using HTTPS perfectly happily until December 2019, when the developers arbitrarily ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. ] (]) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::And even leaving that aside, as Johnuniq mentions - if you can't edit without corrupting Unicode characters, and by your own admission you ''don't know when it happens'', you shouldn't be editing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::This is probably a reference to when Misplaced Pages started requiring TLS 1.2 (because earlier versions were deprecated). Anyone who was/is still on Windows XP at that point couldn't connect any more. ] (]) 01:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I'm not talking about when the update happening, I'm talking about how you have known about this issue, and have been getting complainants about it since <strike>2011</strike>and are still not taking any steps to do anything about it. What kind of internet connection would not support your PC? What on earth are you even using? Dial-Up? Because that still is supported by even Windows 10. ]<sup>] </sup> 02:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			<strike>:::Also, how did you see me saying "this has happened since 2011" as me saying that the update happened in 2011? Can you clarify. ]<sup>] </sup> 03:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC) </strike>
			::::The problem didn't start in 2011, and I have no idea what you're referring to when you mention 2011. The problem started in December 2019 when the developers arbitrarily imposed new ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS... ] (]) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::: Apologies. I was extremely tired when I wrote both above. I have striken the date parts. Rest of my comments still stand. ]<sup>] </sup> 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			===None of this matters===
			I don't care what tool this guy uses or what his excuse is. If he can't edit without screwing up people's sigs, then he must not edit. {{U|AnonMoos}} shouls consider himself on notice now that if one of his edits messes stuff up one more time, he'll be blocked until he can give assurance that he's come into the 21st century. ]] 18:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:That's nice -- and also totally inaccurate. I ''was'' in the 21st century, and using 2012 tools, up until December 2019, when the developers pitchforked me backwards by arbitrarily imposing HTTPS ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS which my home computer hardware is not able to run. Notice that I had no problem complying with character-set handling -- the problem is with arbitrary ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. ] (]) 00:48, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::The century imagery is irrelevant. You have been warned. ]] 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			::That was ''six years ago'', which is IMO about 3-4 years too long to keep using it as an excuse. Technology changes over time, so whatever this non-standard thing you think you need to do to edit here, it may be time to make a choice. ] (]) 00:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::As I said, to fix the problem, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection which would permanently disconnect my old computer, which I still use almost every single day. I would basically have to change my workflow and overall habits/methods of working because of an arbitrary decision by Misplaced Pages developers about encryption protocol updates. Anyway, when editing through public WiFi, I'm 100% Unicode compliant, and by exercising a little prudence, I can also avoid most problems when working from home. If I was constantly mangling Unicode right and left, there would have been a chorus of complaints long before now. But occasionally I can't anticipate a problem... ] (]) 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::And just to say for the third time: you're out of chances. "Occassionally" is too often. Once more is too often. And if and when that happens, your attitude of entitlement displayed here will pretty much ensure an indefinite block. ]] 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::If you have DSL or even DialUp. That still works with modern machines. ]<sup>] </sup> 01:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Heck, ''I'' am on DSL (and have been since, if I recall right, 2008). I have no idea what sort of ancient Internet connection AnonMoos is claiming to be using, but it's clearly one that was already obsolete before this change he's still up in arms about six years later was made. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*The response by AnonMoos to feedback about this problem is bizarre. I don't really care what the excuse or the history behind it. If you are unwilling to edit Misplaced Pages using tools that work in 2024 then you should stop editing. The behavior is completely unnecessary and it seems like you don't understand the disruption. ] (]) 14:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			* AnonMoos hasn't really explained in any detail what their technical limitations are. They don't have to, but we can't really give advice otherwise. If as others have suggested their computer can't negotiate TLS 1.2, I'm surprised that they're able to use any websites at all from that computer. Requiring TLS 1.2 is not controversial; Misplaced Pages wasn't doing anything unusual in dropping TLS 1.0/1.1 around that time. ] ] 15:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::::There is both a naming dispute and this incident report here concerning an admin's personal attacks, insinuations, and defamations. --] 09:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::You seem to be giving as good as you get there, and this is obviously a content/naming dispute. Please don't clutter the admin board with frivolous complaints. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 22:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::I and others commented on an incident reported here earlier involving you and ChrisO. So there is an obvious conflict of interest in you commenting on this incident report here involving me. Please let other admins do the commenting on this. I have not attacked the character of Humus sapiens. I have commented on the content of his remarks. Whereas Humus sapiens has attacked my character and the character of other editors on that talk page. --] 22:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::::Please don't compound your error by failing to ]. I don't recall what you're talking about, and it's not relevant anyway. This alleged incident is a content dispute, and you are wasting the board's time. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 20:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::::Please do not accuse me of not assuming good faith. You have nothing to base that on. Let me refresh your memory. Here is a link to the incident report in the archives: . I did not bring up the naming dispute in my initial incident report. I reported on the treatment by Humus of me and another editor: "It will be pretty obvious what I am complaining about concerning his treatment of me and the user 'Bless Sins'." Humus, you, and KZ focussed on the naming dispute. I did not. --] 23:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			== Disruptive editing by ] ==
	::::Jay, pick your fights. Let someone else handle this one, OK? Over-reach is a terrible thing. ] 20:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::Not sure what you're referring to, but the irony of your statements in this section should be obvious. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 20:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::What I'm referring to is the fact that attacking someone using this board to complain about an admin's behaviour as 'time-wasting' is not very useful; and an attack on someone complaining about Humus might be more carefully read if it didnt come from you.
	::::::The irony is not obvious, possibly because it's been dead for years. ] 19:22, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	This is a content dispute and nothing else. There is a "formal" RFM process underway. I think that additional discussion here will just confuse the issue. ] 23:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			The ] is engaging in disrupte editing. Neither does this IP provide sources and is POV pushing. And this IP has been warned multiple times for this on his/her talk page.
	:I am glad that a request for mediation is taking place. The participation of other editors and admins has already ameliorated the attacks on character somewhat. All I really wanted anyway with this incident report was to get some help from additional moderating elements. --] 23:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			] (]) 20:52, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
	== Notice of block ==
			:@]: It looks like you both are ] on ].<sup class="plainlinks"></sup> That's not particularly helpful, so you should try to have a discussion on the ] as to whether you should include the ] name for the article in the lead/infobox. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">]&thinsp;]<sup>]</sup></span> 20:33, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	<small>Quick links: {{userlinks|Zeq}} {{admin|Zero0000}} {{la|1929 Hebron massacre}}</small>
			::MJL why and how did you pick out that one article over the many this IP has made recent changes to? The IP has been making disputed edits for months and has been reverted by a number of editors, not just Moroike. ] (]) 01:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::@]: I am not suggesting that the IP editor isn't being disruptive, but my point is that {{u|Moroike}} isn't making the situation better (using the example of that one article). You can see this by looking at <span class="plainlinks"></span> where {{gender:Moroike|he has|she has|they have}} mostly just reverted this editor without using a summary. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">]&thinsp;]<sup>]</sup></span> 18:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::The IP's edits were removed a total of 13 times on the page regarding the capital city of ], ]. You can't let him continue engaging in further edit wars with other users besides Moroike, can you? ] (]) 17:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			Since this IP user won't stop and is stonewalling, either he/should be temporarily blocked, or all the pages he is POV pushing without sources, should be semi-protected, so that only registered users can edit them. ] (]) 21:37, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:After he/she was blocked for 24 hours, this IP created an account as ] in order to evade the block and has resumed his/her POV pushing. ] (]) 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			== User engaged in edit warring to remove disputed content prior to consensus ==
	This is a notice as requested by ]. I am blocking ] for 48 hours for openly defying an article ban imposed in accordance with his ]. More details at that page (at the end). --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 07:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{atop|There's nothing actionable in this content dispute, except perhaps trouting the original poster for failing to assume good faith and hounding friendly admins when they try to help. Longtime user ] (4.5 yrs, over 5K edits) has made several assertions based on their clear misunderstanding of social norms. In this discussion they've failed to notify the subject (they actually failed to use the subject's name in the OP), they've failed to bring any diffs, they failed to sign their post, and over and over they seem to have failed to assume good faith of their fellow editors. A number of editors including several admins have attempted to talk Sxbbetyy down. Nobody in this discussion seems to agree with Sxbbetyy on the merits, yet Sxbbetyy keeps circling back to their own personal interpretation of policy. The discussion at ], where Sxbbetyy refuses to listen to the admin they asked, gives another example of the problem. Sxbbetyy is reminded that creating a post on ANI puts all their own behaviors up for examination. ] (]) 15:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)}}
	:Endorse. If he wishes to challenge an article ban, obviously editing the article is not effective as an appeal. And ] keeps growing... ] 10:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I have no knowledge whatsoever of this dispute (that arbcom case is before I even joined Misplaced Pages), but arbcom found that you were edit warring in a dispute with Zeq (finding of fact #4). Is it appropriate for you to ban him from an article and block him for violating the same? Shouldn't an uninvolved admin make that determination? (And just to clarify, unless there is something pressing that I am missing, I don't endorse the block nor the ban and believe that you should remove both and allow an uninvolved administrator to deal with both issues.)--] 13:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Ah, that I didn't notice. There's your challenge, then: find an uninvolved admin which has knowledge of the dispute. I, arguably, am one. ] 13:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Well, I took a look at the article history . It seems that Zero0000 is in a content dispute with Isarig and Zeq. No effort whatsoever has been made to discuss the issue on the talk page. My suggestion is that (1) the block and article ban both be lifted, but Zeq be cautioned to discuss changes on the talk page rather than revert war, (2) Zero0000 be cautioned not to block or ban people with whom he is in a dispute, and (3) if desired, the article can be protected to facilitate discussion on the talk page. Any thoughts? --] 14:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::Zeq has been here long enough; the quality of edits is too low. ] 14:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::Been here long enough? Are we talking about an article ban+2 day block or are we talking about an indefinite ban from the project? I think we're talking about the former. At any rate, regardless of anything else, no admin can block/ban a user with whom they are in a content dispute. Administrative privileges cannot be used in that fashion. Unless someone wants to make the case that Zero0000 is not an involved admin, the article ban is invalid and thus, so is any block arising from it. Any uninvolved admin is free to ban Zeq from that article if they have a good faith reason to, however, I would suggest that an attempt to resolve the issue should come before such an action. --] 15:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::In this case, the former. But I felt we've already passed the point where the latter could be applied months ago. ] 19:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::According to Zero0000 , "the Arbitration ruling can be enforced by ''"any"'' administrator." Which, I gather, includes Zero0000. Regards, ] 15:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::I can't imagine that they intended for that to include someone actively involved in a dispute over the article. You can't ban someone you are currently in a dispute with from the article you are in a dispute over. That's just silly. --] 15:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::::While endorsing the block, it really needs to be someone other then Zero. When someone involved in a content dispute lays down the block, its a ] that just breeds resentment. El_C, why dont you lay the block on him? -<u>]<small><sup>]</sup></small></u> 16:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::::Except that the block would be enforcing an invalid ban and is thus inappropriate. The user should be immediately unblocked with any administrator free to impose the article ban. HOWEVER, given that no attempt has actually been made to resolve the content dispute, I think an article ban is premature. --] 17:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::::Let's pretend that I unblocked, and reblocked. ] 19:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::::::Misplaced Pages is not therapy nor is it an English course, and if Zeq's continues to introduce & edit war over edits which are consistently of too low a quality, then imposing the arbitration remedies will continue. Sure, hopefuly not by someone cited in the RfAr, so next time, Zero should drop myself a line. For my part, I have long suggested that perhaps he tries the simple Misplaced Pages for a while. It is unfair of him to expect others to so extensively reconstrct his edits, which he continues to revert. ] 19:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::::::I cannot comment on the general quality of Zeq's edits (sorry, I'm too lazy to study hundreds of contributions), but there is no policy basis for a block for low-quality editing. If the opposite were the case, most Wikipedians would suffer regular blocks for poor editing. ] ] 20:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::::::::It's a tendencious pattern of revert warring over low-quality additions, it should not be others' responsibility to reconstruct these. His exhuasting carelessness on that front has long reached the stage of disruptiveness. ] 21:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:(unindenting) On what basis would you reblock? Zero's ban is invalid because Zero was in a revert war with Zeq at the time he issued the ban. To allow such a thing is silly. If the ban is invalid, then there is no cause for anyone to block based on that ban. --] 19:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::I've already answered that question above and am not inclined to repeat myself. ] 20:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::The original ban at ] should have been announced here, logged at ], and posted on ]. While the arbitration case says ''He may be banned by '''any''' administrator for good cause from any article which he disrupts by tendentious editing.'', good practice would require that the ban at least be reviewed here, or even better requested at ] much like admins should request protection at RFPP when they have edited the article. I suggest that the correct course would be to unblock and then request an article ban at ]. ] 20:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::It's being reviewed. No point in unblocking if he'll just go back to inserting that poorly-written bit. ] 20:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			Title is pretty self explanatory. Rather than engage in the consensus building process to determine if the disputed content discussed ] is problematic, ] editor has instead immediately reverted the disputed content. They have been informed of the relevant policies prohibiting this behavior and how it should normally be handled (tagging the content as disputed while the discussion is ongoing) but have elected to instead engage in edit warring to keep the disputed content removed prior to any consensus on the matter. Also important to note that they wish to have the content removed entirely, but have stated that they no longer intend to participate in the consensus building discussion. So this appears to be a ] tactic to accomplish their goal of removing the content immediately without a consensus. Seeking admin help to halt this behavior and restore the content with the correct tagging.<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:36, 18 December 2024 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Xsign -->
	:::It is a generally accepted principle that any administrative action, including a ban, must be made only by an uninvolved admin; thus, the original ban was absolutely inappropriate and the subsequent block only compounded the breach of ]. Furthermore, I believe the probation has expired by now. Usually users are placed on probation for one year; at least, this seems to have been the understanding of the original ArbCom ruling when Zeq was banned from ]: the ban was set to expire on March 5, 2006, one year after the arbitration decision. If the original intent of the arbitrators regarding the length of Zeq's probation is unclear, let's make a request for clarification. ] ] 20:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			:It would help if you named the editor and signed your name to figure out what you are talking about; a noticeboard only works if you give us notice about the subject and what is happening. <span style="font-family: Roboto;">''']''' <span style="color:#00008B">•</span> <small>''(])''</small></span> 23:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::The probation has not expired, nor is there evidence that Zeq's editing practices improved. ] 20:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			::The editor appears to be {{u|PerfectSoundWhatever}}, based on the under the word "this" as well as . — ]&nbsp;<sub>]</sub> 23:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::I agree, however, that in light of objections, neither this block nor the article ban (per AC clarification a few months ago) should not count toward the 5-block-one-year-ban but any additional blocks should count it. Simply, Misplaced Pages is not therapy. ] 20:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			::My apology, this is my very first time making such a post. The other pages o have spoken on seemed to have signed themselves automatically. Will remember this going forward. And yes, that was the user, posted this using my phone so I didn't want to mis-spell their name, just linked instead. ] (]) 17:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::::The usual procedure is that in such a situation a block must be ''overturned''. A block by an involved admin must be overturned on sight. ] ] 21:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			:{{non-admin comment}} IMO the best practice is that in the event of a content dispute, the article should be reverted to the status quo of how the article's content appeared before the dispute started, until such a time that consensus is established to re-add it (see: ]). It seems like the beginning of the content that is in dispute was added on 18 August 2024, the dispute began a few weeks later on 23 September 2024 and has been ongoing ever since.{{pb}}In this case, since the article existed in a relatively steady state for several months (or even years?) previous to the disputed material being added, I think it'd be wise to leave the disputed content out of the article until the discussion comes to a close. ] (]) 00:07, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Again, I can unblock and reblock for the sakes of procedure. ] 21:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			::I have been seeing this opinion from a few editors and even one admin on how to interpret this article. However, the first few sentences in that section do outright state to avoid reverting the disputed content prior to a consensus. And prior to opening this report, I asked several admins on the topic and got a response that reverting the disputed content immediately is incorrect per WP:STATUSQUO as it bypasses the consensus building process. I was advised that the content should instead be tagged as disputed rather than be outright removed. The offending user was made aware of the relevant policies but has nonetheless engaging in edit warring to keep it reverted, hence this report. ] (]) 17:13, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	I don't believe that a block enforcing an existing arbitration ruling (article edit ban) has to be done by an "uninvolved admin". - ] 20:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			:::The status quo of an article constitutes implicit consensus (]). The person trying to include disputed content in an article despite it not being status quo is the one that could be construed as attempting to bypass the consensus building process, not the person trying to maintain status quo until discussion takes place. ] (]) 17:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	:It's probably better, nonetheless. ] 20:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			::::Correct, and at no point was the definition of what constitutes the status quo ever in contention. In fact, if you review the edit history of the article you can see that the disputed content was the status quo via implicit consensus at the time PSW chose to first outright revert the content, and then continued to revert it as others tried to restore it (both before and after the consensus discussion began). ] (]) 23:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	::The block may or may not be valid; but I think it's extremely poor form for an admin involved in a content dispute to resort to his/her admin tools. The term "any" surely does not mean that the editor in question is an outlaw. --] 21:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			:::::{{tq|1=the disputed content was the status quo via implicit consensus at the time PSW chose to first outright revert the content}}<br>Not really, I personally wouldn't define "been there a few weeks" as status quo.{{pb}}I think maybe the other replies to this thread provide pretty good reasoning to take a step back and say "hey maybe I'm the one in the wrong here" instead of talking in circles ] (]) 00:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
	:He wasn't enforcing an article ban imposed by the arbitration committee. If he were, this wouldn't be an issue. Rather, he was enforcing an article ban that HE HIMSELF imposed during a revert war over that very same article. I'm going to be bold here. I have a meeting coming up right now. It will be over in an hour or an hour and a half or so (so around 22:00-22:30). If no completely uninvolved admin has objected by then, I intend to unblock Zeq. The article ban was imposed by an admin in a content dispute and the block was made enforcing that improper article ban. If no completely uninvolved admin has objected by the time I get out of my meeting, I intend to undo the block as it is patently improper. I consider myself neutral and uninvolved. I have never edited articles in this topic area nor, that I can recall off hand, interacted with Zeq, Zero0000, nor El C. As such, I consider myself uninvolved in the dispute and have seen no justification for the article ban and ensuing block. If any uninvolved admin objects, I will, of course, defer to their judgment. --] 21:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			::::::Personally I think the number of contributions since the edit where it has gone unchanged is a more useful metric, especially on low traffic pages such as this one. Regardless, per the policy you cite, there seems to be no official Misplaced Pages stance on what exact criteria are needed for a contribution to be considered the current status quo, beyond it having been unchallenged in subsequent contributions (which is the case here).
	::I object. ] 21:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			::::::As for the rest of your comment, there seems to be a high amount of band wagoning and "]" going on in the rest of this. Or people trying to use this report as an extension of the dispute discussion on the article's talk page. Hopefully more actual admins to chime in on the topic as I don't actually want to waste my time talking in circles.
	::Overturn the block if you want but there should also be an independent review of the article ban, which should be reimposed if it is justified. Then if Zeq violates the article ban imposed by a neutral admin, he gets blocked again. I will do this myself after I get back from an errand. ] 21:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			::::::On that note thanks for actually taking the time and baseline minimal effort to engage in a discussion where you actually support your point and don't just devolve into repeating the same talking points over and over. It's a nice change of pace. ] (]) 02:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::No, disregard that; don't overturn it. I object. ] 21:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			:I am the editor being discussed here. I'll provide a summary of events since the initial statement by Sxbbetyy is misleading.
	If I may chime in for a moment, does the fact that Zeq is alleging that Zero's motives are racially motivated (see ] ("most likley based on discrimination") of the talk page, as well as of my comment on the matter) have any bearing here? Seems like a rather serious accusation to level at someone, esp an admin. ] 22:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			:Myself and the editor had a content dispute at ] (]) and following circular discussion, I stopped engaging since I felt I had laid out my points. Per ], I maintained the state of the article to before the dispute. I requested for a ], which was answered by {{ping|BerryForPerpetuity}}, who agreed the statement should be removed, albeit for a different reason than mine. I took this 2-1 as rough consensus. I also posted the dispute on two WikiProjects, and have received no response so far. Sxbbetyy reached out to three admins about the matter, {{ping|Sergecross73|Oshwah|Pbsouthwood}}. The ] can be summarized as Sergecross believing that I haven't engaged in misconduct, and that I have presented a "plausible, good-faith interpretation of ]". Sxbbetyy then accused Sergecross73 of not acting in good faith. Oshwah did not respond to the post on ], but {{ping|BusterD}} did, essentially agreeing that the sourcing does not back up the claim in the content dispute. Sxbbetyy received help on ] about responding to a content dispute. And now we're here.
	:<s>To echo the section above, it is a serious accusation, regardless of the accused in an admin or not. But I'm not seeing it. Can you quote? ] 22:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)</s> I will raise it with Zeq. ] 22:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			:Throughout these interactions, Sxbbetyy has demonstrated a failure to assume good faith, refuses to accept ], and ]s talk pages, refusing to let the other editor have the last word. Frankly, this is a massive waste of editor time: it should have been a brief talk page discussion then an RfC. Apologies for all the pings. — ] (]; ]) 00:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
			::This summarization in itself leaves out critical context, (such as berry's concern being alleviated and them no longer expressing a desire to remove the content), the specifics of why that conversation with Serge ended the way it did despite my repeated attempts to engage with them in good faith, and the entire discussion with pbsouthwood (who quite definitively explained that the behavior PSW was engaged in was not correct). So I urge all involved to go read those topics to get the correct context through your own eyes and then discuss any concerns from what you see here. That being the case, it seems pretty clear cut imo. ] (]) 17:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Just to be clear, in no way did I express that I didn't want the content to be removed. I did not receive a notification for your reply, and I wouldn't have engaged either way. —&nbsp;] ] 17:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
			: Yes, I would leave that material out of the article. Whilst it may not exactly be synthesis ''per se'', it is certainly editorialising ("the removal of that amount of marine debris is of negligible consequence...") ''unless'' there is an actual source that says this by making a link between between the two statistics (the amount of waste removed by Team Seas and the rate at which waste is entering the ecosystem). And even then, I would say that such an edit would need to say something like "However, ARandomNewspaper pointed out that ...". ] 00:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	I note that Thatcher131 ignored my objection and unblocked. It looks like a questionable unblock <s>(certainly as much as the preceding block)</s>. ] 22:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			::That is actually no longer the content that is being disputed. If you look at the that got reverted on the article you can see the current version. I had made edits to it precisely because of valid WP:NPOV concerns brought to my attention by PSW. However, their dispute with the content remains with the claim that is is synthesis rather than any other concern. Which they have been thus far unable to obtain a consensus on. ] (]) 17:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	:It dosen't look like he read Tarc's comment above, so I'll strike that bit out. ] 22:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			*I have some pretty serious ] concerns about the topic starter here. They came to me for help (no idea how/why me, I have no connection to this dispute) and I repeatedly told them I didn't see any misconduct, and then they started attacking ''me'' when I refused to agree with them. And now this. This is a very simple content dispute, with a very simple ] outcome. I've told them this. It's a disappointing time sink on a rather trivial content dispute. ] ] 00:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	::(Crossposted from my talk page) :I don't believe this is a matter for consensus. In this case I did what I felt was the right thing to do. Zero's article ban of Zeq was invalid as he was an involved admin and did not post it to the noticeboard for review. Therefore the block was invalid as there was no valid ban to violate. As an independent admin I have reviewed the article and re-applied the ban for one month. If Zeq violates the ban he may be blocked again. I realize that this may seem overly procedural, but I believe that in order for admins to have credibility we should follow procedures wherever practical, especially when it involves editors with whom we are involved in content disputes. Zero really shouldn't have been the one to apply either the article ban or the block, and reversing the ban and re-applying the block as a non-involved admin is, in my opinion, the best way to move forward. ] 23:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			*:At no point was he "attacked". I defended myself after he became hostile with me (as anyone can read in our convo, I stated multiple times that I would leave and did not want to be a burden if they didn't want to engage with this, but he made no such objections and continued). Eventually he just became outright hostile and refused to explain their points any further, devolving the conversation into them repeating themselves over and over, its all there to read on his talk page. As for why I contacted him, I wanted to ensure I chose impartially so I just randomly looked at the currently active admins at the time and he was the first one I found. ] (]) 18:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::Again, I disagree, but it is within your discetion. ] 23:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			*::The discussion is , if anyone wants to look. The "attack" I'm referring to you is your accusation that I responded to you in bad faith. I was not involved in the dispute, have no stance on it, and had no pre-conceived notions about either of you - what in the world would my motivations be for "bad faith responses"? It doesn't make any sense. You simply didn't get the response you wanted, and proceeded to badger me on it. Did I get vaguely irritated when I volunteered my time to review and comment on a dispute I had no stance or interest in, only to get all sorts of ] responses on it? Yeah, sure, but who wouldn't? ] ] 18:44, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::Regarding Tarc's comment, I did see it briefly, but comments are flying all over the place faster than I can keep up. I view the original block as improper as stated above. If, in responding to the block, Zeq made inappropriate comments or allegations that deserve a block for civility or something, then do so. As I said above, this may strike some as overly procedural, but I believe it is the best way to proceed. ] 23:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::It dosen't look like there's been five blocks, so I would not be blocking for a year as noting on Zeq's talk page. I'll still give him one last chance to respond (so far it dosen't look promising). If there is a block, it ''will'' count toward the one year ban, however. ] 23:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::El C, with all due respect, I don't believe that you should be the one to impose a block of Zeq other than for obvious situations. From your comments on his talk page, you seem to have significant history there. I just got out of my meeting. Had Thatcher131 not already unblocked him, I would have. Please understand that it is important to stay well away from the appearance of a conflict of interest. If you or Zero have an issue with something Zeq does, the best response is to bring the issue here and allow it to be reviewed by a completely uninvolved admin. I am well aware that purely taking an administrative action doesn't make you involved, but even if you in good faith consider yourself uninvolved, it doesn't look that way from the outside. --] 23:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::I have asked the AC about this last time and they deemed me uninvolved, ''administrative'' history notwithstanding. ] 00:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::I think an accusation of discrimination &mdash;unless retracted&mdash; goes beyond mere civility. ] 23:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			*I'm here from my input at the 3rd opinion request. This is nothing more than a trivial content dispute, I see no reason for this to be at ANI. I somewhat agree with the claim of ], it becomes more susceptible to incorrect information, and from my analysis it seemed like the claim in the disputed content was completely wrong. Two different sources, from two different time periods. My $0.02: The claim of stonewalling is ridiculous, there was ample good-faith discussion based on existing policy and guidelines. This editor does not ], it appears that he claims that editors disagreeing are acting in bad faith. From him to administrator Sergecross73: {{tq|"I'm not wasting time engaging with you if you aren't going to speak with me in good faith."}} It seems that he roots his argument based on the editor who removed it rather than the content itself. Very unfortunate waste of time. —&nbsp;] ] 15:31, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::::I say what if the accusations are true? IF somebody makes an accusation that is then substantiated but was originally had up for making the accusation isn't that allowing the problem through blind cover?--] 23:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			*:Exactly. It's not "stonewalling" that's happening here. PerfectSoundWhatever has discussed at-length at the talk page. They're simply not willing to ''talk circles indefinitely''. And we don't require that of editors. I've urged Sxbbetyy to, rather that spin their wheels arguing with the same person endlessly in a stalemate, to try to get other participants to take part. But they've refused, and instead decided to move their arguing to ANI instead. As I noted to them in one of my last comments to them, if they spent half as much effort in consensus-building as they did complaining and arguing, they could have built a consensus by now... ] ] 17:30, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::Zeq was invited to substantiate the accusation. ] 00:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			*:Reading any of what I wrote in this dispute shows clearly that is not the case. Also, the quoted sentence is completely taken out of context.
	::::::I have no opinion to offer on the rightness or wrongness of Zeq's edits, but I'm disappointed that the conversation seems to have veered away from an administrator blocking an editor he was in a revert war with (in order, perhaps, to cut down on the number of editors on the page he had to revert). This is precisely what admins are '''not''' supposed to do with their powers. Was the block of Zeq justified? Let's say, for argument's sake, it was. It's a simple matter to come to this board and ask if any admins out there agree. If the case is so obvious, the block would be in place within minutes. That Zero failed to do this is extraordinarily troubling. More troubling still is that there are so few admins in his thread troubled by it. <font color="green">]</font> 00:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			*:Here is what was said in the mesaage before that they left out, "Not really the logical conclusion one draws from reading any of what I wrote here, where I asked multiple times for you to explain your reasoning in your replies (instead your response was to repeat yourself without offering further explanation), but if that is what you want to take away from this that's fine by me. I'm not wasting time engaging with you if you aren't going to speak with me in good faith."
			*:The message as a whole was replying to was a passive aggressive insult that didn't progress that conversation, hence the response as it was clearly not an example of engagement in good faith.] (]) 18:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Also, it looks like the participants in the dispute on the Team Seas article are acting as if this report is an extension of that dispute discussion.
	Thanks to everyone for these comments and observations. I entirely agree that it would have been preferable for someone completely uninvolved, rather than me, to have taken action against Zeq. My feeling about it, right or wrong, is that it is not a "content dispute" as usually defined but rather a serious behavior problem on the part of Zeq. Nor is it, really, just a matter concerning this one article. The fact is, as anyone can verify with a few clicks, that ''a very large fraction'' of Zeq's edits are tendentious, disruptive, or otherwise inappropriate. Moreover, he has been here a long time and knows perfectly well what is allowed and what isn't. He ''knows'' that it is not permitted to insert the claim of one side of a historical dispute into the second sentence of an article without qualification as if it is an accepted fact. He ''knows'' it, yet he did it repeatedly. That is how he usually behaves and it has to stop. Concerning this particular article: I just now reconnected to WP to see all this discussion and am confused about who is banned or not or blocked or not, but if other admins are willing to take over the resolution of this problem that would make me happy indeed. Undoing the block and reimposing the article ban, as Thatcher131 suggested (already did?) is fine with me. The only thing that would not be fine is for Zeq's disruption to continue. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:This is a report of edit warring to revert disputed content prior to a consensus being reached (there was no consensus prior to the reversion and there still is no consensus, as admitted by PSW themselves in that very dispute and In their latest revert message, no idea why now in this report they are trying to claim that there is suddenly consensus for removal).
			:This is not a report on the dispute itself, just to make that very clear since those involved are responding as if it is. ] (]) 18:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
			::You've still got this backward. You need to show a consensus to keep your content in the article, as everyone else has been telling you. ] is directly on point, and I'll quote it here: {{Tq|The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.}} ] (]) 18:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Thank you. I have tried to inform them of this many times and many ways. I do not know why they cannot wrap their head around the concept. Conceptually, it would be very problematic if we were required to retain every disputed content until consensus ruled it out. It wouldn't be workable. ] ] 19:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Nobody is arguing WP:ONUS here...not in the dispute and not here in this report. The point is that the content is being removed prior to there being a consensus on if it should be removed.
			:::I was directly advised by admin Pbsouthwood that the removal of disputed content BEFORE any consensus has been reached is not allowed (save for specific situations, none of which apply to the disputed content) as this bypasses the consensus building process. ] is the talk page where I was advised this. This is echoed with the wording in WP:STONEWALLING and ]. Here is the direct quote from the latter, "To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the status quo ante bellum during a dispute discussion. Instead, add an appropriate tag indicating the text is disputed. For an article, many of the inline dispute tags are appropriate. For other pages, {{under discussion inline}} is good. Leave the status quo and the tag in place until the discussion concludes." ] (]) 19:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::{{tq|The point is that the content is being removed prior to there being a consensus on if it should be removed.}} <--- No. This is your problem. What you are saying here is incorrect. Policies say the opposite of this. You are not going to get support at ANI. In fact, the longer you keep going with this ] insistence that community practice is actually the opposite of what policies plainly say it is, the more likely it is you're going to find yourself blocked for disruption. Pbsouthwood didn't tell you this either (what he wrote doesn't match what you've been doing), and your initial question did not properly represent the situation at hand. But we can invite him here to see if he actually supports what you're doing here: {{ping|Pbsouthwood}}, what say you? ] (]) 20:06, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::This entire comment serves absolutely zero purpose whatsoever. You're parroting what others have already said with no supporting evidence. Along with throwing in an oddly included threat that is completely nonsensical and wholly unwarranted.
			:::::And while I could point out the myriad of ways your claim about what Pbsouthwood said was inaccurate, that would pretty much involve reposting his reply, which is a waste since anyone can already go to his talk page and read it themselves.
			:::::So at this point, if you need that admin to come here and tell you what they already said themselves, more power to you. Would save us all a ton of time to get an authoritative answer on this, especially with another admin holding the opposite view point, in spite of the specific policy wording. ] (]) 23:08, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::], there does not need to be an established consensus for the removal of content. ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I'm not the one insisting otherwise...this report only exists because an ]. And as I've posted in my previous replies, the wording in the policies clearly support that. Makes me question how many have actually bothered to really read these policies... ] (]) 02:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::The other admin told you ''nothing'' about the removal of ], which is always appropriate. ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:19, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::# This report is not an extension of the dispute discussion for that article, if you want to involve yourself in that discussion, do so there, do not hijack this report.
			:::::::::# The disputed content is plainly not WP:SYNTH as I explain on the talk page in great length, with nobody thus far having provided valid examples as to how it is.
			:::::::::# If you are going to make the claim that any WP:SYNTH concerns warrant immediate reversion without consensus, please feel free to share the quote in the relevant policy that says this. I have not found any such wording and instead found that what is present matches up with what PBsouthwood informed me.
			:::::::::] (]) 17:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::] ] ] 02:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::At this point I say that my advice was given without a specific context, and without prejudice. I maintain that it is more collegial and polite to discuss a removal of unsourced but ''plausible'' content ''before'' removing it, as it can often avoid disputes of this kind, but it is not forbidden to arbitrarily delete content that an editor ''plausibly considers inappropriate provided the relevant reason is given''. It is always the responsibility of the person advocating inclusion to provide a reference when challenged, regardless of the process of challenge.
			:::::Some forms of synthesis are acceptable. If a conclusion is logically inevitable based on undisputed factual premises, or is a simple mathematical calculation, we routinely accept claims that may not be specifically stated in a source, but we may require the logic to be explained, as it may not be obvious to the reader.
			:::::At the risk of being ], I also refer readers to <s>]</s> <u>(looks like that essay has been expunged, try ])</u>. &middot; &middot; &middot; ] ]: 06:59, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I think many of us used to the mess editors adding unsourced content can create would strongly oppose leaving in unsourced content just because it's plausible. The standard should instead be at a minimum that you believe the claim made is most likely correct and sourceable not simply that it's plausible. Although ultimately such discussions are a little silly anyway. If editors would just add sources rather than leaving it for someone else because they're claiming it's unlikely to be challenged or whatever, there would be a need for others to decide whether to query or remove unsourced content. ] (]) 09:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I was suggesting tagging with citation needed while you wait a reasonable time for a response, but as we know some of us do not have the patience and just revert. It in not unheard of to know something, but not have a source handy at the time. What is obvious to one may be totally obscure to others. This is acceptable within policy and guidelines. You could start a RfC to have the guidelines changed, but I suspect it would not get through as being a bit bitey. Cheers, &middot; &middot; &middot; ] ]: 12:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Yes, what you say is true, that's absolutely an acceptable approach. But that's not really the problem at hand here. The bigger issue is that Sxbbetyy appears to be believe that the alternative approach - reverting per STATUSQUO or NOCONSENSUS - is somehow misconduct, and that's simply not true. They're not arguing about if your approach is valid, they're arguing that its ''compulsory'', and they're attempting to report a user for not following your possible approach, which is completely meritless. ] ] 17:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Please do not put words in my mouth. The only reason this report exists is because Peter Southwood advised that this was how I should proceed if the editor participating in this no-consensus reverting continued to do so and was unreceptive to further discussion. (Both are true by admission of PSW themselves). ] (]) 18:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Yes, I've seen , but you presented the situation to them entirely in hypotheticals that lacks crucial context. You frame PSW as unwilling to engage in discussion but omit the fact that You accuse PSW of edit warring to keep their information in the article, but omit the fact that . I would think the near-unanimous rejection of this ANI report would indicate that this was not, in fact, a good thing to report. Best case scenario, this is archived with no action, but I'd be shocked if it didn't result in a ]. ] ] 18:44, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::I don't know why you are attempting to present the entire discussion on that talk page as some sort of proof that PSW was willing to engage in further discussion to halt the behavior this report is about. At no point whatsoever did PSW ever indicate anything like that; if they did this report wouldn't exist as the discussions on your talk page or Peter Southwood's page would have never needed to happen. Not to mention if you take the time to actually read the discussion, you see that most of it is on the specifics of the validity of the WP:SYNTH claim made by PSW, eventually culminating in PSW actually asserting that they will not stop change their position on this and then outright refusing to engage any further.
			:::::::::::And now you accuse me of edit warring by citing the entire recent edit history of the page...this isn't fooling anyone who actually bothers to read any of the revert messages and examine the timeline of when they occurred (talk about omitting "crucial context").
			:::::::::::Beyond just slandering my character, I don't really see what these kind of spurious claims accomplish. It wastes everyone's time, makes yourself look biased and hostile, and adds nothing to the conversation. Keep things civil please, I really shouldn't have to tell you of all people that basic expectation. ] (]) 02:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Wait...are you seriously trying to suggest that, even though you were the only one who reverted him every single time, he was edit warring and you weren't? ] ] 02:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::If you are going to continue to twist words and make false claims immediately after being asked to keep things civil, maybe it would be best for all involved if you just moved on from this conversation. Sad that even has to be stated at this point, it should be a given. ] (]) 17:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::Yet another IDHT response where you try to baselessly chastize me rather than address anything anyone is saying to you. ] ] 18:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::What a choice to post this exact type reply to my last message... not to mention the sheer absurdity of it. To claim that I've never addressed anyone's points in my replies is so easily and visibly wrong (literally this entire topic is full of my detailed replies to people's concerns, including this very reply) that it's almost insulting to the rest of the people participating in this or to anyone who even chooses to read that message. It's as if you think nobody can see the rest of this discussion (or even the comments directly above it). ] (]) 11:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Thank you for taking the time to respond and my apology for any inconvenience it may have caused. Ive tried to keep it as civil as possible, but there seems to be a very hostile air in this discussion by those with the dissenting opinion. As for how this situation is to be resolved, would it be appropriate to restore the currently disputed content with the appropriate tags (as it is sourced and was the statusquo on the page at the time of reversion)? Or is there something further that must be done here? I'm generally unfamiliar with how ANIs actually function. ] (]) 17:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Have you considered starting an ]? The fact is that you made a ] addition to the article; someone else objected to it, which means you now ought to seek consensus ''for your addition''. As numerous people have told you, none of the relevant policies and guidelines (], ], ], etc) would allow you to make a recent addition the "default" the way you want, but more generally - the problem is that you're trying to dig through policy for something that will make your preferred version the default, allowing you to have it in the article without having to demonstrate consensus for it even in the face of challenges. Even if the policies and guidelines I listed ''were'' on your side this would still be a bad way to approach it. You have a conflict, your goal should be to resolve it by making consensus as clear as possible - figuring out what the crux of the dispute is and then, if you can't reach a compromise, holding an RFC to see where consensus lies. Also, I have to point out that just by a quick nose count of people who have weighed in on talk, I'm seeing a dispute that is now three-to-one against you. That ''is'' a consensus - not a massive one, maybe an RFC will pull in a bunch of people that say something else, but it doesn't make sense for you to keep demanding a consensus to remove something you added when there actually ''is'' such a consensus on talk. You've disagreed with their arguments but they're not obliged to ] you; ultimately if you think your arguments are so strong and theirs are so weak, the only real option for you at this point is to start an RFC and hope that you can demonstrate that there. --] (]) 04:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::As mentioned earlier in the discussion, this report is not an extension of the dispute on that article, nor is that what this report is about. Also, a RFC was already started for the topic about a week or so ago by PSW, but that occurred after he reverted the status quo, disputed content with discussion (repeatedly). As for the rest of your comment, Peter Southwood, an admin, has addressed what is the actual expectation. ] (]) 18:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::What? I never started an RfC. — ] (]; ]) 19:07, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I just checked and on 12/9/24 at ] you said the following, "Thanks – just wanted to mention I requested comments from ] and ] about 2 weeks ago."
			::::Did that not actually happen? ] (]) 02:11, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::] is a specific process. Asking questions on a couple of Wikiprojects is not an RFC. ] (]) 02:22, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::That's fundamentally not what an RFC is. This is getting ridiculous... ] ] 03:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::It's almost like this is the very first time I've ever been involved in this kind of issue on Misplaced Pages before...seriously these kind of replies come off as rude and don't actually say anything meaningful or helpful. Ever since our conversation on your talk page you have made next to no real effort to engage in good faith and I find that highly disappointing to be coming from an admin. And my apology if I offended you at all at some point or if you have just "lost your patience" with me, but I don't see how that gives you the green flag to suddenly disregard ]. I certainly haven't, in spite of being on the receiving end of this. ] (]) 17:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I haven't said anything uncivil, I just keep calling you out when you say something incorrect. ] ] 18:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::], is a powerful force, I find it difficult to resist myself. ] (]) 18:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			===Request for closure===
	:Yes, I banned him for one month. I watch ] and am certainly prepared to reblock if needed, or reimpose the ban if he resumes disruption after the month is up. As I told somone else regarding Ombudsman, with a user already found to be disruptive, you don't have to wait for the situation to become intolerable before requesting an article ban. There are still 1.5 million plus articles he can edit. ] 01:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			Despite its large size, the consensus here is quite clear. There's no misconduct here, just standard following of procedures of ] and ], which is perfectly acceptable. Not a single person has suggested taking any action towards PerfectSoundWhatver. Outside of a a potential IDHT BOOMERANG, there's nothing left to be done here. Can someone close this? ] ] 14:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	This is silly. El C has reimposed the block. I'm sick of dealing with this garbage. We don't block people with whom we are in a dispute. We don't make punative blocks. If that's not a concept we can all agree on, then I'm done here. --] 05:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:I second that. If there has been any edit-warring by any party that should be dealt with in the normal way. {{u|PerfectSoundWhatever}} has certainly done nothing wrong, and the OP will get blocked if they don't start listening to people pretty quickly. ] (]) 14:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	:BigDT seems to be taking too lightly the fact that I've given Zeq many hours to either retract or substantiate the charges of "discrimintaion." ] 06:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			::Exactly. And even that's probably unlikely, as most of the "edit warring" was singular reverts with days or weeks in between. It's far from a 3RR situation at least. ] ] 15:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	::So? You should not have blocked Zeq because you are in a personal dispute with him/her. If you have an issue that you think merits blocking, bring it here for an uninvolved administrator review and execute. --] 06:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:{{non-admin comment}} I don't think this conversation is going anywhere fast, other than seemingly coming to the conclusion that @] has done nothing wrong, which seems to be the opposite of what this ANI post was about. There's no edit warring here, and even if there was, it wouldn't be dealt with at this venue. Shut it down! ] (]) 16:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::This board seems to be losing from its usefulness in this case, so I'd rather defer to the AC (the block was noted in Rfar log). I am not in a dispute with Zeq, although he wishes to present it that way. He could have even said, 'let me collect the evidence and get back to you in a few days,' but no, he said "that is my answer" and to this BigDT says "this is a joke. He complains about a patently incorrect block and then you block him for it?" as if I blocked him for merely 'complaining' ("excuse," he says) against a block, which although I felt should have stayed in place (for other reasons), I too took issue with. How is that helpful? I also note that the unblocking admin was aware of this situation and . I don't have much to say beyond this. Thanks. ] 06:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:In what way whatsoever is this editor's decision to revert the disputed content during the discussion "standard following of procedures of WP:STATUSQUO"? The literal first words that appear at that link are in bold and say, "'''Avoid reverting during discussion'''", followed by a detailed explanation of the actual proper procedure. And to make it very clear what it says, here is the literal first paragraph verbatim: "To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the '']'' '''during a dispute discussion'''. Instead, add an appropriate tag indicating the text is disputed. For an article, many of the ] are appropriate. For other pages, <code><nowiki>{{</nowiki>]<nowiki>}}</nowiki></code> is good. Leave the status quo and the tag in place until the discussion concludes." ] (]) 02:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::Zeq, BigDT, and Iamunknown have all accused El C of involvement in the dispute, but have provided no reasoning at all for this strong accusation. Clearly, he was not part of the edit war. If it's about what he has said in this thread, that's not involvement, any more than yours or mine. Please offer some reasoning, as it's not immediately obvious to me at all. ]·] 07:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			::In what way is ''that'' your read of the consensus in the discussion above? ] ] 02:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::In what world do you logically come to that conclusion from a message that consist of almost entirely the word for word quote of the procedures described in WP:STATUSQUO, that directly counters the claim you just made? Are you saying it is "against consensus" simply because it presents a viewpoint you don't like and don't want to address? I don't see another reason why you would again twist my words, to the point of lunacy. And this is, once again, despite the fact that all of what has been said is literally within view.
			:::Also, regarding the consensus. Out of everyone that has actually joined the discussion and all the messages sent (~90% of which are either from myself or you Serge), there have been only three people who have actually said anything in support of your interpretation of this. The rest either did not discuss the topic, did not express an opinion, or were Peter Southwood who supported the interpretation of WP:STATUSQUO as stated on its page. Seems like you're just trying to rush a end to the conversation to get the conclusion you want. ] (]) 15:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I'm saying there has been no consensus for anything you're arguing here. Not a single person has supported action against PSW. ] ] 15:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::The status quo ante bellum that shouldn't be reverted from is the version ''without the new content''. ] (]) 15:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Mgtow definition ==
	===Section break===
			{{atop|1=Editor was pointed to the talk page and then stopped editing. It looks like this was a case of ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:45, 22 December 2024 (UTC)}}
	It's not either-or here; in fact, I think it's both. Zeq's long term disruptive behavior, frankly, deserves more than an admonishment and a short block. Short blocks do nothing to fix the underlying behavior, and we know that because he has before this. The edit warring at , in light of repeated blocks, warnings, instruction, arbcom ruling, and even a not-subtle-at-all week-long ban by arbcom in a later motion, and I must conclude that he is incorrigible. Look closer at that edit warring; most striking in Zeq's failure to grasp collaborative editing and conflict resolution is his lack of atempts at good faith communication. Note that at the same time he was warring, he made a total of, well, ''zero edits ever'' to the article's talk page . Note also the same behavior at
			There are blatant lies in the wiki definition of "mgtow".
	concurrently, where his talk page communication is to . I propose we give Zeq the ban he deserves, and dispense with this drain on the community.
			The goal is accuracy, not "man bashing". ] (]) 14:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:@], you should discuss this at ]. This noticeboard is for conduct issues, not content issues. ]&nbsp;] 14:54, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Nothing wrong with the definition of MGTOW. Maximum Gross Takeoff Weight is an internationally accepted and used term used by every airplane and airline in the world. ] ] 16:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::The cintent is incorrect. Mvto is NOT "misogynistic". There is no "hate" towards women, only avoidance. ] (]) 20:21, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:@], you were directed to the talkpage, which includes an FAQ on the term you keep trying to remove, along with extensive discussion. You should start there before just removing sourced content that you don't like. We'll leave aside the absence of required notifications to Black Kite and myself who have warned you for your conduct. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 17:41, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Where do I find the talk page? ] (]) 20:21, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::@], I linked it for you in my comment above. ]&nbsp;] 20:27, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			* Camarogue100's removal of material unfavorable to the subject with an edit summary of indicates to me that they are here to play games, not ]. Any more disruption should result in an immediate block IMO. —] (]) 20:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
	At the same time, Zero0000's actions here are indefensible and require further scrutiny. First, notice that he is not simply in a content dispute, but is, as an admin, engaging in an edit war with Zeq and others at ]: . Those last two reverts are inappropriate uses of the admin rollback in a content dispute. He made no attempt at dispute resolution, despite the fact that this dispute lasted weeks, and indeed, also never edited the talk page at all, his last edit there being . He first and then two minutes later, essentially enforcing his preferred version, and then later , . Of course, we already know there is a preexisting conflict, since arbcom ruled more than a year ago ] Zero's lack of communication I noted before is more concerning in light of the fact that he has been admonished by arbcom before for substantially similar behavior in a conflict with the same editor. And of course, ] by arbcom, at the recommendation of Jimbo, for ''using his blocking powers in a content dispute in which he was involved''. I fail to see why the community should continue to place its trust in Zero0000 as an admin. ]·] 07:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	:Blocks and bans are meant to uphold policy, ''not violate it.'' Based on this presentation, it is difficult not to conclude that Zero0000 should be desysoped.
	:What has happened? Zero's ban of Zeq has stuck, and his block has been restored. I have no strong opinion about Zeq's editing, but there is the strong appearance of a double standard. To wit:
	:Zero2000 1) has edit warred, and 2) abused blocks and admin rollback to prosecute this edit war.
	:Zeq 1) has edit warred and 2) um...well, that's it.] 09:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	::That's it? Er, that's quite enough. ]·] 15:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I agree strongly with what Dmcdevit writes regarding Zeq, and I thank him for both his research and level-headedness. I also concur with him, having examined the full array of evidence he provides, that Zero's conduct as an admin has certainly been problematic. While I'm inclined to give him one last chance (perhaps impose some immediate restrictions), I'll state my bias upfront, having had a positive editing relationship with him for nearly three years, as well as a great admiration for his skills as a ME scholar whom I share many views with. ] 09:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			== Creating the need to make 400,000 unnecessary edits ==
	::In the light of his comment, I must agree with Dmcdevit on Zero. In terms of the procedure, the only way of forcibly desysopping someone is to go to the ArbCom; however, as a community, we can ask Zero to voluntarily surrender his admin privileges in order to spare the trouble of an arbitration. Based on his comments above, I believe that he understands that his actions were not right. ] ] 10:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			Can we please dp something about editors who make unnecessary changes to widely-used modules, and then need to change 400,000 talk pages to get the same result we had before the change? Thanks to change from last week, which removed the parameter "living" from the bannershell, we now have more than 400,000 pages in ]. After the "cleanup" by ] (and perhaps others), we will have the exact same result as we had last week, no new functionality, no new categories, no improvement at all, but a lot of flooded watchlists.
	:::My actions were according to the letter of the Admin ruling on Zeq. I have admitted above that it would have been better to ask someone else to take the action that the ruling permits "any administrator" to take, but that is the limit of what I admit. Throughout this affair I have acted in absolute good faith. Thank you for the suggestion that I fall on my sword without sufficient reason, but I'll pass. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 10:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			I tried to get him to stop at ], to no avail. This isn't the first time, as you can see from that discussion. ] (]) 14:57, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
	I do not regard the criticism of my behaviour here to be justified. (1) I use Talk pages more than most editors: 37% of my last 200 edits were in talk pages and I'll be happy to have my use of talk pages compared to any other editor. (2) The list of reverts which Dmcdevit gives are not a counterexample. In each case the issue is very simple and my long edit summaries are quite sufficient to explain why I was making the edit. This might not have been the case if Zeq was a newbie or good-faith editor, ''but he is not''. That's the whole point: when edits are being deliberately made in order to disrupt and destroy an article, the obligation to start a long discussion over it is questionable. And I mean ''long'': Take the example of and the following 14 edits (notice how Zeq produced a single web link that contains one sentence on an irrelevant subject, while Doron and I produced academic sources to show how he is mistaken); then started again by Zeq as if nothing had been said at and 10 of the following 12 edits, plus ] written by Doron and I from the latest archaelogical sources. After all this effort, Zeq comes back weeks later , still totally ignoring the sources presented. This is what it means to "discuss the issue on the Talk page with Zeq"; I submit that it is well beyond the call of duty. (3) I dispute that this incident is similar to two similar incidents. In those cases the Arbitration Committee had not put the other user on probation and provided a remedy that "any administrator" can use to prevent further disruption. This makes the present case fundamentally different. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 10:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:If you want to discuss {{tl|WikiProject banner shell}}, you should do so at ].
	:I sympathize with the position Zero found himself in. He should definitely follow my advise and agree to immediately adhere to the following restriction: no use of sysop tools on Zeq under any circumstance. I don't agree with desysoping over this (at least not if recent issues are limited to Zeq), but in fairness to Dcmdevit, at least he's also arging to ban Zeq. Whereas Beit-Or, BigDT, IronDuke, and Leifern all found reasons to ignore Zeq's role and only comment on Zero, which does not seem even-handed on their part. ] 15:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:As for the size of the category, I have no plans to empty it, and was only going to update a few hundred more categories and templates. &nbsp;&nbsp;<b>~</b>&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:16px;">] (] ⋅])</span>&nbsp; 15:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
	:: I agree to not use blocks or bans against Zeq again. That's for sure. But the issue may become moot as I am probably going to leave altogether. The task that I really enjoy, writing articles on the basis of the very best sources, is nearly impossible in the mideast section of Misplaced Pages. As you know from your own experience, very few good editors last there more than a few months before they can't take it any more. It is bad for my health and I've forgotten what the point is. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			::You made nearly 2000 of such edits in the last few hours, and when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries. I have no way to know how many more you planned now or in future runs. Starting a discussion at the module would hardly stop you. ] (]) 15:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Zero, the prohibition against admin action when involved is absolute. ArbCom often doesn't feel the need to specify that, just like ] doesn't add that it is only for uninvolved admins in every sentence. Your claims about Zeq's poor behavior, even if correct, merely demonstrate that you chose to respond in kind with sterile revert warring rather than to seek a resolution, it seems. ]·] 15:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:::"{{tq|when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries}}": incorrect. Since you wrongly thought I was making cosmetic edits, i.e. "{{tq|no change in output or categories}}", the category was to inform you that they are not cosmetic.
	:: But I ''did'' try to seek a resolution - the one that the ArbCom prescribed. I didn't do a good job of it, for sure, but I did try. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			:::Regarding a BRFA for the bulk of the category, that's looking more likely since the category appears to be neglected. &nbsp;&nbsp;<b>~</b>&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:16px;">] (] ⋅])</span>&nbsp; 15:29, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Unnecessary removing a synonym and then making thousands of edits to remove the hidden cat created by that unnecessary change is not really any better than making cosmetic edits, the end result is that nothing has changed for the affected pages at all. ] (]) 15:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Not unnecessary. The Lua code is very complex and removing the need the support various settings makes the code both easier to read and maintain. As always, editors that don't want to see these edits can hide these by hiding the tag "talk banner shell conversion". ] (]) 12:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::It doesn´t look as if the specific code to have these synonyms was very complicated though, the argument that in some cases two synonyms were used on one page with conflicting values was more convincing. And the edits I complained about did ''not'' have that tag, so no, even if people knew about hiding that tag, it wouldn't have helped here at all. ] (]) 16:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:This was discussed in detail on ]. Ideally these edits would be done by an approved bot so they do not appear on people's watchlists. The main benefit is to merge the {{para|blp}} and {{para|living}} parameters. When both are in use, we find they often get conflicting values because one gets updated and the other does not. &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 17:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Isn't it more logical to first have a bot cleanup the unwanted parameter, then remove it from the template, and only then start populating the cat with the somehow remaining or since added instances? In any case, this is a typical bot task and shouldn't be done with massive AWB runs. ] (]) 17:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Yes, probably. But we have this mechanism already set up and I assumed {{ul|Cewbot}} would deal with these as part of its normal activities. Happy to look at other options - maybe discuss on template talk? &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 18:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I don't know what this is about, but if the OP is correct, it is totally absurd to edit 400,000 talk pages for a tweak. Discussing at a template talk page monitored by those focused on the template would simply hide the issue. ] (]) 03:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Edits like these should ''always'' be bots, so they can be filtered from watchlists. There are numerous other editors who have recently engaged in the mass additional of categories to articles which I had to ask them to stop as my watchlist was flooded. ]] 13:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			* Is it just me or are talk pages like ] just perpetual ] issues where a very small number of editors (frequently 5 or less) make major changes that affect thousands of articles, all without involving the broader community through, at minimum, places like ]? ]]<sup>]</sup> 04:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
	::I need to expand on this. The problem is, Dmc, if the arbcom ruling didn't actually mean that any admin could issue the block, then what was the ruling trying to say? I read this ruling some weeks ago via ], and have to say I distinctly remember sharing Zero's reading. You may think this is incorrect, but there are in fact two very important reasons why: 1.) If the ruling was not actually to expedite the blocking process with Zeq, then what was it trying to do? I thought this was the whole point: while normally bad behavior has to be taken to an outside admin for action, due to Zeq's intransigence, this was no longer required with him. Basically saying to Zeq: we'll let you go, but even if you're off editing in some far-off obscure corner of Misplaced Pages with just one admin around, if you get out of hand, that admin can block you, and without going for outside help. And why did I think that? Because 2.) If that's not what the policy was saying, then why did it specifically use the phrase "any admin"? While you're right, of course, that every comment in every rule doesn't state every caveat every time, that's rather different from language specifically going out of its way to say "''any admin''." That language sticks out like a sore thumb. Honestly, if you saw that in a policy, would you not immediately add "any uninvolved admin" or "any admin not involved in the dispute?" Clearly one would, since that is exactly what the general probation policy does. My understanding, then, by the failure of this to do so, was that it was specifically stating that this general rule did ''not'' apply in this case, for the reason stated above.
			*{{ping|Fram|Tom.Reding|Kanashimi|Primefac}} I got AWB working again. If cewbot would take time for making the changes, and if this needs attention soon, then should I file a request for that particular bot task? —usernamekiran ] 06:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:The robot is in operation... ] (]) 09:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::yay! —usernamekiran ] 16:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Meanwhile, the category has grown to over 800,000 pages. Perhaps next time an RfC to determine whether creating such a large cleanup task is warranted, would be better? ] (]) 16:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	::Should Zero have consulted another admin? Yes, at this point, that seems pretty clear. Was his reading of the ruling unfounded? No, I don't think it was. Is this the case for some type of harsh sanction? I really don't think so. ] 04:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::No, in my opinion, on the basis of past experience, ArbCom uses the words "any administrator" almost always, as convention, because it goes without saying that involved administrators should never use their tools in the conflict. It is not intended to give permission for such misconduct. It is a substantial misrepresentation to say it is going out of its way to specify that involved admins may act; it uses that language because it is an admin action not specified in general policy. Also, "due to Zeq's intransigence, this was no longer required with him" makes no sense whatsoever: blocking while involved is prohibited because admins acting out of a conflict of interest will ''always'' be acting under judgment impaired by personal and content concerns. That doesn't change because of the other editors' intransigence. Probation is ''not'' "to expedite the blocking process" but to allow an editor who is otherwise productive to remain as long as they remain within certain bounds. ]·] 07:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::Uh, Dmc. At the bottom of ] we see a note from Will Beback that ''"When the ArbCom chooses to say "any uninvolved admin" they do so. When they say "any admin" that's what they mean."'' Perhaps ArbCom could clarify this point. ] ] 11:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::Also, the point isn't that the CoI goes away, but that Zeq has lost his right to this safeguard. While you suggest probation isn't to expedite the blocking process, I think this also misses that arbcom was presumably doing something special in this case beyond ordinary probation. In that regard, expediting the process seems like a very reasonable purpose to me, considering the stress and disruption that seem to have instigated the case (and seemed likely to possibly continue).
			== ] ==
	::::This is all really ancillary, though, to what the ruling said, which clearly was that "any admin" could encorce it. I'm simply saying, Zero may well have reasonably taken this at face value, and there are reasons why he would have done so. I agree with Sjakkalle that a clarification seems most appropriate. ] 18:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::It isn't special; as I said, it's the norm. I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I'll put it more simply. Did no one notice that '''''I''''' was one of the arbitrators that came to that decision? When I say "ArbCom uses the words "any administrator" almost always, as convention, because it goes without saying that involved administrators should never use their tools in the conflict. It is not intended to give permission for such misconduct" it is on the basis of the fact that ''I'' wrote many such rulings myself as an arbitraor, and that's what it means. And that's what the vast majority of administrators for years have understood it as. That is your clarification. ]·] 02:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::: Don't you think you should have alerted the ArbCom that you have a personal interest in defending the wording of Zeq's ruling? I'm not accusing you of bad faith, but the principle of full disclosure is there for a reason. Will you alert them now? As for your "clarification", I read it like this: "there is an unwritten shared understanding that everyone is supposed to have, and anyone who somehow misses out on this shared understanding deserves to be beaten up." --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 03:56, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	=== Zeq banned from ] for one month ===
	After reviewing recent edits at {{la|1929 Hebron massacre}} as an uninvolved admin I have come to the conclusion that Zeq has edited the article disruptively as specified by his ]; I have banned him from editing the article for one month. He is not banned from the talk page, please try to work out your disputes there rather than edit warring. ] 23:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			] is making wholesale reverts of my edits in contravention to guidelines. ] (]) 19:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
	== Claims by ] ==
			:You're removing demographic categories and templates by blanking them out; irreligion still deals with religion no matter your argument. That's definitely not compliant with ] and clearly vandalism. There's no action to take here except that you need to stop removing these categories and templates. <span style="font-family: Roboto;">''']''' <span style="color:#00008B">•</span> <small>''(])''</small></span> 19:42, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::And you are now '''required''' to cite how your edits meet ]; spamming it in edit summaries is not discussion. <span style="font-family: Roboto;">''']''' <span style="color:#00008B">•</span> <small>''(])''</small></span> 19:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::While doing routine vandal patrol, I came across what seemed to be a hasty and massive removal of content, being done in a very directed and personal manner.
			::::After looking at the persistent removal, and communicating, I restored the well-drawn categories.
			::::Hopefully, this is easily resolved.
			:::] (]) 20:40, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::43*, do not continue to revert these category removals without discussing them first. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::THere is nothing to discuss. The guidelines are clear. What needs to be done is editors need to be familiar with the cat guidelines. We don't discuss whether the sky is blue do we? ] (]) 02:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::THey are not well drawn, it was not hasty, it was not massive, and it was not "personal". It was directed because they all had the same issue. ] (]) 02:07, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Editors should not blindly revert. They should be '''required''' to understand the guideleines. ] (]) 02:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			I gave up editing because there were too many problems that the wiki communtity is not sorting out. One of them is treating anon editors as second class wikicitizens.
	Can someone take a look here: ? ] ''wrongly'' blamed me in intentional falsification many times. Is that an uncivil behavior? Is any administrator intervention required?] 19:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	* Please also see ], as well as checking Vlad's talkpage history. This guy has been repeatedly warrned for ] already but talk page / archives doesn't show it - ]<sup>]</sup> 19:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			Another problem is "this is how it is so we are going to leave it like this for years and years" and this is at the expense of the quality of WP.
	:::Example of false translation:
			I can't remember the specific category guideline for the edits I did but is the undoing editors need to look it up. Categorisation is something that a lot of editor do not understand. Go and put a notice on WikkiProoject Categorisation and you will fing that there is support for my edits.
	:::http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Internet_brigades&diff=122006717&oldid=122004017
			WP could be sooo much better. ] (]) 02:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::''"It is important not only to protect authorities - that is needed for sure, but attract young people who can work creatively in the internet.<ref name="Surkov"/>
			:I'm sorry, but "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone" is an indication you should be trying to do better instead of telling us we should do the same. If you're not willing to actually explain why guidelines vindicate your changes, then being right sometimes isn't enough if you want to make things better. Communication is the process, not something ancillary to it. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 02:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::Please see the original of Russian text http://www.newtimes.ru/index.php?page=journal&issue=6&article=231
			::GO and read the guidelines. It does not need discussion. ] (]) 02:15, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Discussion is required when other editors ask you questions in good faith in order to resolve present disputes and prevent future ones. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 02:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Bear in mind this is WP and not social media. ] (]) 02:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::How do you get the impression that "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone". ] (]) 02:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::No. You brought this here. The ] is on ''you'' to explain how the guidelines justify your edits, not to say "go look it up". Also {{tqq|How do you get the impression that "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone"}} - because that's exactly what you said. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::It's not unreasonable in many cases to link to a very specific passage of a guideline and expect an editor to understand its meaning as regards a pertinent dispute, but you can't just fail to clearly articulate your argument while also insisting it's vindicated somewhere within the full text of a guideline. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 02:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Content dispute. Bold edits were reverted; next step is discussion, probably at ]. If there is dispute over interpretation of the guideline you can consider leaving a pointer at ]. If there are any categories that shouldn't be used at all that can be discussed at ]. ] (]) 03:31, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::The content dispute could have been discussed on any of the talk pages. Yet it was brought here first. ] (]) 06:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::When a content dispute involves several pages it is often <small>though not always</small> best to centralize discussion. Misunderstanding ANIs purpose and bringing content disputes here is a common and understandable error; best just to point people at appropriate ] when that happens. ] (]) 06:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			Not overly impressed by 43's comments above. But do wish to note that their ] of ] from at least one BLP appears to have been correct. The subsequent reversion of that removal is misfortune. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::"Важно найти такой поворот темы, не защищать власти — это само собой, надо привлекать ребят, которые умеют творчески работать в интернете".
			== Unblock request of Rereiw82wi2j ==
	:::Its real translation is: "It is important to find such a turn of topic, not to protect the authorities - this is understood, we need to attract youth who could work creatively in the internet".] 03:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=Blocked, blocked, they're all blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			The user {{u|Rereiw82wi2j}} was blocked for blanking talk page discussions. They were removing discussions they participated in with an now-vanished account, for the purpose of removing their username from the talk page(which isn't removed via a vanishing). I believe that per ] their vanishing needs to be reversed, am I correct? Do they need to be asked to resume using that account?(if they can) ] (]) 20:49, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:It seems to need reverting because with their previous account, they only edited one article/talk page and when asked what articles they wanted to edit with their new account, they just mention this same article. That violates the entire principle of a clean start account. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 23:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Could we revoke TPA per ? ~ ] (]) 14:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::: I have revoked their talk page access and declined the unblock request. ] (]) 14:34, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::User has created another account {{u|Human82}}. ] (]) 15:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Also now blocked. ]] 16:17, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::There's also ] now. ] (]) 16:32, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Blocked by PhilKnight. ]] 16:36, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User:ZanderAlbatraz1145 Civility and Content #2 ==
	You also may take a look here: ] 19:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|ZanderAlbatraz1145}}
			This user has engaged in a lengthy display of disruption. Namely through incessant incivility I have noticed .
			Instances such as , , on , etc. Users such as {{Ping|Waxworker}} and {{Ping|Jon698}} can speak to their experiences, I'll outline mine.
	Point of interest, Vlad and Biophys are attacking each other back and forth all over wikipedia. It's about time to block both of them, Biophys for repeatedly using Misplaced Pages as a soapbox to attack Putin and people who support him, and Vlad for incivility and personal attacks, and WP:POINT violations against Biophys. I also should note that the Internet brigades page is a recreation of an attack page aimed at Vlad, previously ] or something similar. I'm sick of this issue coming up. It's time we block both of them. ] ] ] 20:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	* I'll endorse that, but not indef. This has been the subject of at least one RfC, a flamewar on my talk page and hostile comments on a lot of article talk pages. It is going nowhere and various people have attempted mediation at this point - ]<sup>]</sup> 20:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:You said "Biophys for repeatedly using Misplaced Pages as a soapbox to attack Putin and people who support him". Well, I just checked my edits using this tool: . I have almost zero edits about "Putin and people who support him". I edited only ] among Putin's supporters. I wrote mostly about: (a) biology; (b) human rights issues; (c) Russian opposition (dissidents); and (d) ''organizations'' such as ]. This has nothing to do with soapbox; everything is well referenced. Please check.] 20:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
			On December 10, I noticed on the article ] page several additions were made that didn't adhere to the article's purpose. Zander restored these with an introductory summary rife with . For the most part there was an attempt to discuss the issue we had, but ultimately did not see eye to eye. I asserted I'd be escalating the issue to garner more substantive dialogue around it, Zander's response includes a needless . I made some attempts at engaging the topic at the article's talk page, in addition to WikiProject Film, it was over a week that saw no input. I would go on to state that (at the time) in two days, I would restore the page to it's status quo. I would do so, . Zander , and after another terse interaction, I moved to nominate the article for deletion, finding with the conflicting views of what Unrealized meant, it was too open ended and led to these lists being essentially trivia. Since then, Zander has elected to take an antagonistic approach towards me, making swipes they openly admit , and now that I am putting said comments , Zander is now doing the editing equivalent of mockingly repeating me, with edits such as and .
	Unless there is a specific reason, the community block is out of question here. Biophys is an actively contributing editor who started relatively recently and creates a good amount of content. He has yet to learn to separate his individual biases from his edits, but he is trying that without doubt. Vlad Fedorov is equally opinionated, also relatively new, who does not just run revert wars but is willing to read sources, add them and discuss. Both unquestionably make a good use of talk pages, they do not just run revert wars. I think there is a fairly good chance that we can preserve these two contributors who will be adding material to this encyclopedia. These editors need to be talked to in good nature rather than have their block logs filled with entries as the latter is usually a straight path to the permaban. --] 23:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	: I would have agreed with you, if Vlad hadn't posted completely out of the blue. ] (]) 02:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			This editor displays no interest in conducting themselves cordially or cooperatively on this website. ] 23:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
	::Appleseed, again? Came here to get the content opponent blocked? New users make mistakes. This quote is not Vlad's but it indeed rather belongs to the article space, not the talk page, I agree. Now, please take an effort to calm down the situation, not escalate it. --] 02:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:I've given them a warning for canvassing: - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:08, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			: - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::And they appear to be continuing editing while ignoring here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			== SPA ] back at it on ] ==
	Vlad's incivility is an issue that should be addressed. I have seen my share of incivil users on Wiki, but Vlad is certainly up there in among most aggressive. What he writes on his talk page - or even mine - is a minor problem, but he is also accusing users (myself included) of vandalism, falsification, revenge and such in article's talk space and article's edit summaries. See for example: ] and ; ; ; - and those are just almost random examples, his recent contributions could yeld dozens of controversial and offensive posts. I think this user should be sternly warned by an uninvolved editor(s) (he seems to ) and if his behaviour shows no change, he should be placed under civility parole, possibly with ] input. Misplaced Pages should not be allowed to degenerate into Usenet-level where baseless accusations, flaiming and baiting dominate discussions - this is what ] is for and it should be enforced as much as ] is. PS. I will also note I am strongly opposed to sanctions against Biophys - I am not aware of where he has been 'attacking his opponents', and the ] clearly shows there is no consensus to delete it, and certainly almost nobody supports the version that it is an 'attack page'.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 02:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			Hi, all, I'd like some assistance with the SPA ], who's been POV pushing on the ] article since . A quick view of their extremely short edit history shows that their sole focus is on pushing a vaccine-denialist POV on that and similar COVID-related topics. Started out on the talk page and BLPN, but now they've graduated to edit-warring on the article itself; they were active in June, made a single related edit in October, but now they appear to be . They've already , and have received an warning--to which they were . Would appreciate a more permanent resolution, either a COVID-19 topic ban or just an indef considering their SPA status, so they don't just go back into hibernation and then turn up again like a bad penny. (And yeah, given this context, I don't love the implications of the username "Tikitorch2", either.) Thanks, ]&nbsp;]] 05:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Piotrus' propensity to invoke WP:NPA left and right, more often than not, inappropriately has become so notorious that every mention of WP:NPA by this user should be taken with a huge grain of salt, checked for diffs and diffs checked for the context. Having seen a bunch of false PA accusations spread by this editor to deflect the discussion from the topic, I think I should make this caution here. --] 04:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Irpen's lacks of diffs to back up his accusations is telling. His "let's ignore WP:CIV/NPA" attitude is somehow I hope will never prevail on Misplaced Pages.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 13:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:]? ] (]) 06:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
	And Biophys' claims that certain editors are working on behalf of the Russian government , his blatant biases anti-russian government that have been included or edited into nearly every single article he's written? The stalking on both sides of vlad and biophys of each other's edits solely to revert to one another's POV? The nearly WP:POINT like thousand+ edits specifically limited to russian articles? Accusations of defamation and and and ? The infighting in making several RFC's and AN/I reports against each other? Oh, what about the ] attack page? Look, neither one of these two editors are angels. Both of them are probably good faith editors, but don't know what they're doing. Biophys apparently understands policy a little better than Vlad, but both of these users need a time out. This nonsense won't stop until one side or another, "wins". This edit sums it up clearly, where biophys claims he does not want to edit russian articles any longer, but he can't let Vlad win. Whether or not that's likely true, since both of them edit nearly only Russian related articles, leads me to determine there will not be an end to this edit war otherwise. A time out to go over policy seems to me to be the only thing short of arbitration that could possibly work, though TBH, it hasn't worked for Vlad. Especially since Biophys has that he will avoid editing articles that would run him into Vlad. That's why I suggest the block for both of them. ] ] ] 03:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			::{{duck}}. I'm sending this ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 11:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::, so might just be generic disruption. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:What are you implying with regard to my username? My edit history has been limited to trying to correct two red flags that stood out so much that I followed the citations when I was searching these scientists who were in the news for censorship. It has been enlightening learning how wikipedia selectively chooses secondary sources but discourages the use of primary sources to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible.
			:For my two attempted contributions to Misplaced Pages, the two red flags were pretty dramatic to prompt me to check out the citations--Sunetra Gupta's article implied more than 1 in 1000 people in England died from Covid in spring 2020 in an effort to discredit her, which was trivially easy to google as untrue. I corrected that without really changing the overall narrative. The article for Martin Kulldorff...I would probably not have spent time looking at the sources or realized how unscientific Kulldorff's critics were had there not been such superfluous "Wikivoice" editorializing and synthesizing suggesting Kulldorff lied in an essay to the public. ] (]) 06:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::] are not to be used for anything but simple facts about a subject. They absolutely are not to be used {{tqq|to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible}} because that is ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Not sure why you felt the need to repeat what I said. Maybe I am the sock puppeteer! ] (]) 03:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::What I am implying is that such a username in the context of an account pushing COVID-denialist rhetoric that flies in the face of the sources and Misplaced Pages policy is . Anyway, this editor continues to be a drain of editor time and attention. ]&nbsp;]] 14:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Ah an absurd, convoluted, and contrived personal attack. Assuming anyone but you knew tiki torches were present at a political event where someone was killed, why would I choose my username based on that? Tikitorches provide light, warmth, and keep the mosquitos away. I guess its not surprising an editor named writ keeper attacks the editor rather than effectively debating the subject of the edit. ] (]) 03:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Even if it was a personal attack, making one ''back'' isn't going to fly here. Knock it off. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::], your edits are being examined at ANI. This is not a pleasant experience, I'll admit. So, it's best for you not to dig yourself into a hole. I know the instinct is to defend yourself but it doesn't help your situation to come out swinging. It's probably to your benefit to address any concerns that have been raised and say no more than that. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			== Persistent addition of unsourced content by 2601:243:CB00:7F10:0:0:0:0/64 ==
	:Please take a look. I '''did not''' claim that certain editors are working on behalf of the Russian government (although I wound not even mind if some did). It was said by another editor who came uninvited to my talk page, and I deleted his comments as a possible defamation.] 04:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC) Yes, of course, I claimed that Vlad inserts defamatory and ''poorly sourced'' texts to biographies of living persons (these unreliable sources also contained defamatory statements). This is violation of ] and I openly reported about this to living persons noticebord. So, I striclty followed ]. Doing otherwise would be a violation. Yes, it was me who suggested resolving this problems bot not edeiting each others articles (see my RfC), but Vlad refused.] 04:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{Atop|Blocked for one month.--] (]) 14:52, 21 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			{{userlinks|2601:243:CB00:7F10:0:0:0:0/64}} - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, hasn't responded to warnings, and continued after block expired. /64 has previously been blocked on December 8th for a week due to "Persistent unsourced genre changes", and 2 weeks on September 7th due to addition of unsourced content. Recent examples of addition of unsourced content: {{diff|The Iron Giant|prev|1264168891|1}}, {{diff|Joker (2019 film)|prev|1264169891|2}}, {{diff|Candyman (2021 film)|prev|1264170248|3}}, {{diff|Spirited (film)|prev|1264235847|4}}, {{diff|Sausage Party: Foodtopia|prev|1264237619|5}}. ] (]) 10:22, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{Abot}}
			== Disruptive editing ] ==
	:Biophys made no such claim and he removed the thread from his talk page to prevent further flaming - I find his behaviour commendable in this incident. As for the following four diffs, I'd avoid such terms as defamation, and would recommend DR, but Biophys is much less offensive than Vlad. Their problems with each other should be solved via mediation or ArbCom, not blocking them - on this I agree with Irpen. To summarize: I don't see the need to block either of them; Vlad's incivility towards many editors can be solved via civility parole (and than block if he ignores it); Biophys lesser incivility towards Vlad merits opening of mediation (hopefully he will agree), but certainly not a block.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 04:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{atop
			| result = I've protected the page for 24 hours. @] and @] are both warned against edit warring, including during the course of this discussion. RR, HR, and .82 should follow ] processes. Further disruptive editing or edit warring after page protection expires will result in blocks. ] (]/]) 21:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			}}
			] has been trying for about a month now to put across his own opinion about the party' infobox. An opinion which he cannot back up with any source whatsoever. Although it has been pointed out to him by both the user ] and me, continues the disruptive editing. Ιt is worth noting that although other users made the same "mistake", when the lack of sources to support the addition was pointed out to them, they accepted it and did not continue to try to pass on their own opinion.
	::However, Biophys has created an article which he titled ], which is based on single unreliable source - immigration advertisement newspaper with circulation less than 5 000. And on the talk page to this article Biophys has created section entitled "KGB trolls in Misplaced Pages?" , '''where he invited everyone to his talk page entitled "Vlad"''' - . I think that now everyone could ascertain that Biophys is not true in his statement that those who abused me "come uninvited to his talk page". Moreover, I don't need to explain here that user ] is a best friend of Biophys and not "uninvited guest" on his talk page - just look at Biophys talk page. ] 10:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Movement_for_Democracy_(Greece)#5/300
			https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Greek_Rebel#Movement_for_Democracy
	Swatjester and others, however tempting it may be to "just block both and get it over with", I would like to caution against this yet. Both editors are clearly writing content, not just flaming each other. With some supervision and tutoring this has a good chance of being solved. Point is that experience Wikipedians who are involved in these topics should try to pull them back rather than encourage to go on the rampage however tempting it may be to "use" a "rightly POVed" editor as a ] in advancing ones own POV into articles. --] 04:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Greek_Rebel#Disruptive_editing....again
	:::I'm not going to block anyone. I'm just expressing my opinion. ] ] ] 18:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	*Both users are writing content. Biophys actually writes more than Vlad. Biopys has also a strong POV, a tendency to soapboxing and a tendency to misrpresenting sources. Vlad is good in checking the sourcing problems but also often his own point of view. Both are quite stubborn, tend to edit warring and name each others names. Both are easy to assume bad faith of each others and everybody else who objects their edits. In a way they are productive as a team, Biopys starts a new article on a controversial subject, Vlad checks his references and obvious POV tricks, adds his own references (and adds his own POV), Biophys finds better references for his viewa and checks Vlad's references, etc. In a few iteration we have a well-sourced more or less neutral article. Unfortunately usually result does not converge to single version but to a sterile revert war (often over minor points). Any attempt by third parties to find a middleground ends up with them both ignoring the compromise and reverting to their favorite version. So far I was just locking the articles then they reach that stage trying to keep some balance. Neither of these users are vandals, they both believe they improve the project. Quite possibly their net contributions are positive but they are often tiresome for the rest of the community. I propose, if they both agree, to use ] on them. Something on the lines of ] I imagine if they agree on 0RR for each other and some sort of a civility parole (e.g. an automatic blocking then they call each other vandals or their edits valndlisms) then we would have the effect of all their good contributions without the negative effect. If they are not agree I would call for the Arbcom. I do not think that a community ban is an option as it is a complicated issue that require hundreds of diffs to see all conflicts and it is not something that should be decided on the run. As a personal plea I would ask if anything not to ban one without the other, they check each other's strong POV if one is missing who would do it for us? ] 05:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			] (]) 19:15, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
	::Of course I agree on ]. And I have already started mediation on a case of ] in January 2007. See mediation cabal cases. But the problem - there was only one mediator since - and the case is stalked. I also would like to point out that claims of Biophys that I violate BLP policies, or use unreliable sources are voiced by him in order to push forward his POV. The real problem, if you would like to listen to me at all, is that '''administrators and mediators do not deal with resolving the disputes, the duties which they are expected to perfom. Rather than resolve my disputes with Biophys over unreliable sources, violations of BLP, misattributions and POV editing, they just prefer to block and to forget.''' Earlier, you Alex and Mikka were editing our disputed articles and there was some line that Biophys wasn't crossing, but when you leaved, Biophys reverted all your edits without hesitation and broke "peaceful state". That was the case with Boris Stomakhin, Union of Jewish Council and so forth. Maybe it's time for you to resolve our disputes and to look into sources which Biophys and I are disputing over? Maybe it's time to determine finally that my contributions to ] and ] are based on reliable sources and do not violate BLP.
			:This is a content dispute, not a conduct dispute. Since discussing the issue on article talk has not worked, please follow ] processes, such as seeking guidance at ] or ], or going to ]. ] (]/]) 19:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::@] taking a look because I've been tagged. While there may be content elements to it I think this has gone into a behavioural issue, namely due to it being a user actively edit warring without providing sources but instead endlessly insisting on edits that are entirely ]. ] (]) 20:00, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::It is not a problem of content but of behaviour. His claim is original research, is his own conclusion and is not verified by any source. He knows it, has admitted it, and yet he insists on adding it. ] (]) 20:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			(nac) ] is a moderately stable DAB page, with which I have been involved. I assume this dispute relates to ]. ] (]) 20:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
	::As for alleged "sterilization", I have never sterilized ]. Please, give the diffs where I sterilize whole or substantial part of Biophys contributions. I protest against such blatant and strong description. Isn't it Biophys who deleted citation of ] which he don't like claiming that "this is unreliable source" or "violation of BLP". Should you, administrators, be quick in resolving that dispute everything would be different. But look, instead of resolving disputes, you suggest "to block and to forget". Some prefer blocking because it would help to push their POV as Irpen rightly suggested. Some prefer blocking just becuase they are lazy to busy themselves with "hard" admin duties.
			{{abot}}
			== Sugar Bear returns with personal attacks ==
	::Just look at ] talk page where I have descripted all the misattribution which are currently in the article. Some of them - are things as simple as translation. But look, no one who's appearing there throwing envious comments on me is trying to review simple translation. No one. And that's exactly why the things have gone so far.
			{{atop|1=/24 blocked for two weeks. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			*{{rangevandal|166.181.224.0/19}}
			*]
			Using the IP range ], Sugar Bear has returned to Misplaced Pages to disrupt film and music articles. After I recognized this fact and began reverting him, Sugar Bear began a campaign of personal attacks at my talk page, using the IP ]. Can we get a rangeblock?
	::I am always ready to defend all my edits. And I always agree to ], ]. ''The most important point is that it should be enforceable.'''] 07:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			There's a decade-plus history of this vandal attacking me, for instance his creation of the username ]. I can spot his contributions quite easily by now. ] (]) 22:35, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
	Both editors are welcome at ]. To clarify, it's a process that can't really be used on anybody. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 08:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			.I've blocked the current IP, I may not have time to properly investigate the range right now. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 22:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
	::Thank you very much! '''I agree to try this process. But I have two questions''' First, I would like the mediator simply to judge if wikipedia policies (such as ], ] and others) are followed in each specific case of our disagreements. Would that be possible? Then everything will be resolved instantly. I am a law-abiding person and agree to blindly follow all WP rules. These are good rules. Second, the ] process seems to be designed to resolve content differences. But the original issue here was completely different: alleged ] violations by Vlad (and perhaps me?). '''So, what is your decision?''' ''Please punish us both as we deserve.'' Again, I am a wikipedia-abiding citizen and ready to pay the price for any wrongdoing. ] 13:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			::Past disruption from nearby IPs includes the following:
	:::Ok, I just read the following "The mediator's level of involvement is generally low: primarily a sounding board and checkpoint. Although a mediator may take a more active role in bringing the participants to agreement, this venue is designed for editors who show enough independence and initiative to examine policies and past arbitration cases for themselves. When the participants reach an agreement the mediator screens their proposed solution" from ]. And I have a question: does that mean that when the dispute is over correct/incorrect translation from Russian to English we should wait for somebody who would translate it? Does that mean that we would wait painfully long for someone who could read Russian sources and evaluate their credibility, reliability and content? I want active judges, mediators and I want enforceable decisions. Not just stalking for months waiting for "someone else" to took the matter on. I have already protracted Mediation cabal case on ] where mediator gave ambiguous decision not resolving directly whether Biophys and mine sources are relible and violating/not violating BLP.
			::*] was blocked in 2018 and 2019.
			::*] was blocked in 2018 for one month.
			::*] was blocked in 2020, identifying Sugar Bear.
			::*] was blocked twice in 2020 for personal attacks.
			::*] was rangeblocked in 2023 for three years. ] (]) 22:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I've blocked the current /24 for two weeks, but I see a lot of potential for collateral damage for longer or broader blocks. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 22:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::If enforceable mediation means protraction and painfull waiting, then I choose arbitration. I have a right to speedy trial. If Misplaced Pages runs on California servers, Misplaced Pages should ensure me right for speedy trial according to the Constitution of State of California and according to Federal Constitution. Protracted mediation where mediators are unable to ascertain accuracy of translations and sources content is a violation of these rights.] 08:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Comments by Locke Cole ==
	:::::Wrong. You do not have a right to speedy trial because you have not been arrested or accused of any crime. Your 6th amendment rights do not apply here. This is not court. This is Misplaced Pages, and you do not get to go straight to arbitration without first going through dispute resolution. ] ] ] 18:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{atop
			| result = No support for a block for either party, and filer is fine with closure. ] ] 16:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			}}
			'''Involved''': {{userlinks|Locke Cole}}
	::Well, Swat. As I am a lawyer, could I please remark that arbitration is a dispute resolution method? ] 19:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			So I honestly think we should both receive a (24 hr) block for our behavior, but bringing it here for that to happen. This started when I posted a list of "keep" votes with no rationale at ]. Comments made by Locke Cole in response to the list include:
			* {{tq|Sour grapes are over there, in case you're lost.}}
			::I replied to this with {{tq|What?? Voting on an AfD should be policy-based, not just "keep" or "he's too notable". I'm giving evidence to my claim that keep votes were given unnecessarily large amounts of weight when closing this. Yes, I left out the ones with evidence, because that wasn't the point of the list. Again, would you give weight to the five keep votes that just said "keep"? I believe this is the second time I've had to say this to you, but way to WP:ABF.}}
			* {{tq|Well, you're already violating WP:DRVPURPOSE #8 by casting WP:ASPERSIONS about other editors. Carry on, I look forward to seeing you blocked for being an idiot.}}
			::And I replied to this one with {{tq|Yes, I removed a comment after realizing it violated our aspersions policy. Do you have an issue with that? Feel free to take this to ANI if you want to continue, as it’s clogging up the DRV.}}
			This user has a long history of behavioral blocks, including '''six '''civility blocks over a span of nine years. Since this behavior clearly won't be getting better, bringing it here. It's up to y'all to decide if a BOOMERANG should happen, if we should both be blocked, or only one party gets the hammer. :) ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 02:41, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:I'm not sure that the cited comments are in themselves enough to justify a block. I also note that LC has recently ]. Speaking from experience, I can state that when in deep mourning we are not always at our best. That said, I find LC's block log disturbing.-] (]) 02:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::As I mentioned before, protractions in resolving the disputes are contributing to the aggravation of disputes.] 08:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			::While I do get that, and I do respect that and am deeply sorry that happened to them, this behavior has been going on since late 2005, and includes an arbitration request, hence why I brought it directly here. Calling me an "idiot" was 100% an NPA vio, and having a personal loss shouldn't excuse that (also speaking from experience with the loss of my mother from ] in 2014). This is a rare case where I'll say that a block log should give you an idea of whether this behavior will continue. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 02:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::{{tqq|bolding policies I've added at the end}} - I'll just note that every one of the "policies" you linked to (bar ], where I'm pretty sure you wanted ]) goes to ]. Which is very useful and well-thought-out, and by all means should be used as a tool at AfD, but is not policy. It's an essay ''on'' policy. There's a difference. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:42, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Okay then, per that I've removed the list. The comments still stand though. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 03:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			*So the OP wants themselves and the other party to receive blocks for incivility? Why don't you just stop being rude to each other? Change your own behavior. Opening this discussion is just drawing attention to a few comments that otherwise would have likely been forgotten. I don't see how this post helps the situation at all. Just do better. And if Locke Cole comes to this discussion, I pray this doesn't devolve into bickering. Let's all just get back to editing productively and not taking shots at each other. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:23, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:I don’t know, maybe I just thought it’d continue and brought it here, likely too early. Is it possible to close this? ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 13:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:From what I read from the DRV, it definitely seemed like it got heated, but it definitely seemed to cool down. Trouts for sure, but I don't see why blocks are necessary. As for you, given that you're asking to be punished, you seem to recognize what you did wrong, and you pledge to not continue this behavior. Just change your password for a day or a week and change it back later; I don't think admin intervention is necessarily warranted. ] (]) 11:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Though as actual admins above have mentioned, their block history is indeed concerning. ] (]) 11:50, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== ] ==
	:::As an example of protracting the case, I also would like to show you how Biophys pushes forcibly his POV in mediation case: please see this link http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-02-10_Boris_Stomakhin#How_can_we_move_forward. Please, note that mediator fails to answer to the main point of disputes. Please see that Biophys doesn't agree with the mediator's decision to revert to my version of the article. Please see how Biophys tries to force the mediator to interpret Misplaced Pages ] policy in regard of dated article to his advantage. Biophys claims that if the source has no date (is not dated), then it is unreliable source. Why not to deal with these issues, administrators? You all strive to receive you adminship rights, but how many of you really try to make use of them properly? I have posted here a hell bunch of questions which are quite commonly met and resolving of such issues would benefit to the whole Misplaced Pages community. ] 11:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{atop|result=Just officially closing this discussion as the account involved has been globally blocked. If an editor has Spore on your Watchlist and you see this occurring again, contact your local administrator. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			This user made 500 edits to their user page which were all completely useless (] to inflate their edit count) and then once receiving extended-confirmed permissions vandalized ] by copypasting another article. Their user page shows them editing and counting to 500. ]] 04:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:It's a ], and I just reported to AIV. ] (]) 04:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::Sorry for using jargon. There usually consider two types of edit wars. One is productive, when the opponents each add something to the article supporting their POV or improve the style to prevent from misunderstanding, etc. While the editing might be painful for the participants the article is indeed improving. I think this is usually the case at the start of yours and Biophys's editing. The sterile or fruitless revert warring happens then two opponents just repeat their reversions. It does not lead anywhere and just clatters the history of the article. It might be the case of a disruptive editor pushing clearily inferior version but usually it indicates stubborness from both side. Unlike productive editing conflict sterile revert wars are always harmful and should be prevented by either protecting the article or blocking some participants. ] 12:34, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			::Would it be possible to put up some kind of filter to alert for this? Something that…say…catches when more than 25 edits are made in a single space (user space for example) or something that would trip if the edits added less than 5 characters consistently? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	::Well, I mean quite another point, you wrote that I and Biophys, are going into sterile reverts and we don't abide by third parties version. May I notice to you, that I have never was changing first, your or Mikka's version of ] article. May I notice that it was Biophys who was always unwilling to accept your versions of the article. Let us look into Boris Stomakhi article history:
			:::There is a filter for this. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:AbuseLog&wpSearchUser=International+Space+Station0&offset=20241222044736, "New account unusual activity" covers exactly this. ] (]) 05:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			*This account has been globally blocked as an LTA so it shouldn't be an issue. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:25, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:At what point is it appropriate to selectively delete their hundreds of edits of nonsense from the page history?
			*:Or is that just something that isn't done? &ndash; ] (]) (]) 05:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::If you are talking ], there is rarely a good reason for it's use at present. If instead you mean ] see ] and ]. ] (]) 05:33, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::I've gone ahead and revdel'd the lot of them, as cut-and-pasting from other articles without proper attribution is copyvio and thus RD1able. Selective deletion (making the edits go away from the history) is probably not going to happen, if it's even technically possible for an article with almost *9500* revisions (I know ]!). - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== POV IP editor and 2024 Kobani clashes ==
	1) Alex Bakharev has made compromise version:
			{{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			This engages in BLP and POV pushing with things like this and this , and then edit warring and then makes personal attacks like this , in a source documenting casualties for all of December instead of the specific date, and then when he is reverted by another editor respond with . I believe this person is ] to build an encyclopedia, and also the ] article should potentially be given semi-protection status as it's part of the Syrian Civil War which has discretionary sanctions. Thanks. ] (]) 05:34, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Oh also . ] (]) 05:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::{{an3|b|72 hours}} (]) and pages protected ] 13:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Promotional content about Elvenking (band) ==
	*(cur) (last) 01:29, 28 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (→Commentaries)
			{{atop
	*(cur) (last) 01:21, 28 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (→Commentaries)
			| result = There does not appear to be an actionable COI here, just an avid fan. Content issues can be handled through the appropriate channels. {{ping|Elvenlegions}} please be mindful of musical notability and what Misplaced Pages is and isn't for. ] ] 17:03, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	*(cur) (last) 01:00, 28 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (→Commentaries)
			}}
	*(cur) (last) 00:58, 28 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (/* Commentaries - see discussion)
	*(cur) (last) 00:58, 28 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (→Commentaries)
	*(cur) (last) 23:52, 27 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (technical edit. I said about his lawyer; "jumped voluntarily" sounds really stupid.)
	*(cur) (last) 23:41, 27 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (unsourced, OR and POV phrase removed)
	*(cur) (last) 23:38, 27 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (A reference provided, and the text of the article is now exactly consistent with the source.)
	*(cur) (last) 23:21, 27 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (→External links)
	*(cur) (last) 19:31, 27 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (I leave only statements suported by reliable publications and claims from the court sentence which are not repeted later; there is no need to repeat everything two and three times)
	*(cur) (last) 07:11, 27 January 2007 Alex Bakharev (Talk | contribs) (my attempt to reconsile Vlad's and Biophys versions. Usually took more complete version unless its OR)
	2) Alex Bakharev again tried to compromise:
			I noticed a consistent addition of promotional content about an apparently unencyclopedic band, namely ], with articles being also dedicated to each band member (eg.
	*(cur) (last) 15:53, 24 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (rv - if I am wrong about the source, please explain what is wrong; this article will stay forever on living persons notice board unless this problem is fixed)
			] and ]) and their unsold discography, which also got a dedicated template ({{tl|Elvenking}}). I also noticed a weird pattern by ], which appears to be either a very big fan or in conflict of interests, as well as other accounts apparently created just to support the band (eg. ]).<span id="Est._2021:1734845816539:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators&apos;_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;] (] <b>·</b> ]) 05:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)</span>
	*(cur) (last) 12:26, 24 January 2007 Alex Bakharev (Talk | contribs) (→Commentaries - a few statements need citations, Svoboda=>Liberty)
			:I am indeed a big fan of the band and am trying to update the band's wikipedia information to make it as accurate as possible so people can learn about the band. I hope this helps support the band and also helps wikipedia readers and users who wish to learn more about the band. ] (]) 06:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	3) User Mikkalai tried to compromise:
			:*If these musicians are not notable, you can always tag the articles CSD A7. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:42, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Understood, Elvenlegions, but ]. If the band, nor its members, nor its discography qualify as notable under the ], then the band's fans will have to learn about it elsewhere. ] 07:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Disruptive editor on ] ==
	*(cur) (last) 02:22, 18 January 2007 Mikkalai (Talk | contribs) m (Reverted edits by Biophys (talk) to last version by Mikkalai)
	*(cur) (last) 00:29, 18 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs)
			User ] has repeatedly removed reliably sourced refs to the genres infobox by removing ] simply because they don't believe it to be correct as the ref is "new" and that the artist isn't that genre. I had sent them two warnings now and also explained that's not how this works, so they decided to add more genres with refs that don't even mention the genres they included. I do not believe this editor is going to cooperate. ] (]) 08:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	4) User Mikkalai again tries to compromise:
			:User:Pillowdelight changed the genre list of When the Pawn... which originally had been a variation of certain genres: Art pop, jazz rock, art rock, alternative rock, jazz pop, chamber pop, all of which are somewhat accurate and agreed upon by various editors of this page over many years. It was changed to just Alt pop, a genre that is used to describe the newer sounds of pop in the early 2010s with Lorde, Sky Ferreira and Lana del rey. It is not a genre that fits the album hence it has never before user:Pillowdelight been described as such beyond what her poor source says, a Fiona Apple revisit (that is not even about When the pawn.. specifically) from a new, small and virtually unheard of web magazine. Sources such as Rateyourmusic, allmusic and Pitchfork are far more accurate and robust and that's why this album has never been described as alt pop. That genre did not exist at the time of the release of the album. The source needs to be accurate, it is not. It's not an album review, it is a fluff article about Fiona Apple by a small web magazine. It's not even about When the pawn... specifically, it makes no sense. I think the other editors agree, it is inaccurate.
	*(cur) (last) 16:59, 15 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (Totally disputed - as explained in living persons notice board. Contradictory sources.)
			:Allmusic and pitchfork are far better sources. I have added both as sources. I didn't change the genre list, I simply changed it back to the genre list that had stood there the longest before user:Pillowdelight changed it a few months ago for the first time, having never touched this page before yet complaining about other editors. ] (]) 18:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	*(cur) (last) 08:13, 15 January 2007 213.184.225.28 (Talk)
			::{{ping|Longislandtea}} I removed the genres because they're unsourced, which I stated in many edit summaries you keep reverting, as well as on your talk page. It doesn't matter that just because you believe a source another user added calling the album alternative pop is incorrect and unreliable because it's "new, small and virtually unheard of" is a ridiculously excuse. Read ] it states — {{xt|genres must be stated and referenced in the body of the article; personal opinions or original research must not be included.}} The sources you have added specifically from Pitchfork don't state the genres you've listed. ] (]) 20:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	*(cur) (last) 02:30, 9 January 2007 Mikkalai (Talk | contribs) (→External links)
			:::Sources need to be '''legitimate''' and''' relevant'''. Your source is not relevant and it is disputed. Pitchfork is added because they describe the album as an alternative album several times in the review and the genre category is ROCK. What is alternative and rock? Alternative rock. That is how the album was marketed. You can't cherrypick a single article to make a case for a genre that the album absolutely is not in. I will remove the Pitchfork source, that's fine. There's numerous ones including from Allmusic that clearly state that it is an alternative rock album. The album was even added to Misplaced Pages's page for alt rock albums ages ago. This is very uncontroversial. Just having alternative rock is also lacking; jazz fusion, art pop (the album is already added on the wikipedia page for art pop albums) and art rock are accurate too and have been there for ages but alas! Let's get rid of it all to only serve your opinion. Numerous albums have unsourced genres might I add, but the vast of amount of editors agree to it because they know these accurately describe the album, these are the scenes that the album and artist comes from and sourcing for genres can often times be lacking. In that case, rather than trying to look for BAD sources, it's better to agree with the consensus. In our case, we do have sources. Rateyourmusic has been used as a source for adding art pop, alternative rock, jazz pop, fusion, art rock and chamber pop as genres before. ] (]) 20:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	*(cur) (last) 02:30, 9 January 2007 Mikkalai (Talk | contribs) m (Reverted edits by Biophys (talk) to last version by Mikkalai)
			::::Here's the page for what is considered acceptable sources {{lw|Acceptable sources}}.
			::::''Relevance. Sources must be relevant--there must be some reason for the reader to care about what the author has to say. For example, the opinion of a random individual on the presidency of George W. Bush, as published in a letter to the editor of a major newspaper, is not relevant; and thus should not be included--even though it is published, traceable to its author, and given in a reputable publication. Relevance can be imputed several ways--through explicit personal knowledge, through subject-matter authority, through general notability of the author, through demonstrable correlation with the opinion(s) of a large group of people, etc.''
			::::A large group of people, the editors of When the Pawn...'s page throughout the years, thousands of people on music reviewing sites and numerous music journalists from legitimate publications do not agree with what this one article you cherrypicked states.
			::::''Note that this policy is the minimum standard for inclusion as a reference in Misplaced Pages. Sources may meet this standard and still not be authoritative, reliable, accurate, free from bias, or undisputed. Sources which meet this minimum standard but which fail to meet stricter standards may be used, but should be used with caution. In particular, such sources should be explicitly attributed to their author(s) or publisher(s) in an article's prose (rather than being presented as fact with the author only given in the notes), and disputes considering the source's veracity should be described.''
			::::Meaning you can't just add any genre because some random source says it when it goes against larger and more reliable sources as well as it is controversial.
			::::Thank you and please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand. ] (]) 21:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::]. Note that accusing editors of vandalism when they are not, in fact, vandalising can be considered a ], so I'd suggest you strike that comment. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Okay, I strike. ] (]) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::You didn't actually strike any comments. To do so, do this <nowiki><s>Comment</s></nowiki> which will make it look like this <s>Comment</s>. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::<s> please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand.</s> ] (]) 22:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::{{ping|Longislandtea}} How is the source considered not relevant and where was this dispute? AllMusic ''does not'' call the album alternative rock at all within its article. Rate Your Music is also not a source it's user generated which is against Misplaced Pages. I really wish an admin would comment on this because this is getting absolutely nowhere. ] (]) 21:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Here's another source describing it as an alternative rock and jazz fusion album
			:::::https://www.the-solute.com/the-solute-record-club-fiona-apple-when-the-pawn/
			:::::Alt pop is not accurate. If you're so adamant about alt pop, please argue why. It is completely inaccurate and you have one singular source over music journalists and music sites. Allmusic does categorize it as alternative rock, Pitchfork has categorized it as rock since 1999 of its release. There was NO Alt-pop at the time. It still isn't. These are different genres. Art pop is not Alt pop. You edited the page one time in October 2024 only to get rid of the genre list that editors agreed upon to add Alt pop which makes no sense whatsoever. ] (]) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I have now added a new source to the genre list. If you have any problems with the new source, tell me. But it's much more accurate this way. It's still sad to see the whole genre list that was originally there, so much more descriptive and fitting, hacked away but oh well. ] (]) 21:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Pitchfork's categorizations mean basically nothing. They have ten categories, one of which is "Pop/R&B", and another of which is "Global". By the way, you should just stop caring about this, because sources misclassify genres of music chronically and everywhere you look. Take your passion to RateYourMusic. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:All of this discussion should be taking place on the article's talk page (which neither editor has used). ]&nbsp;] 21:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::{{ping|Schazjmd}} I'm awaiting for an admin to respond. This conversation is getting nowhere hence the reason why I brought it here in the first place. I've tried to explain to the user on their talk page along with this entire thread and it's getting nowhere. {{ping|The Bushranger}} you left a comment but could you please share your opinion on the dispute? Or possibly ping an admin who's familiar with music if this isn't your area of familiarity? ] (]) 21:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::There was no reason to bring this conversation here. I talked to you directly but go no real reply or any arguments despite adding sources and explaining why it's not an Alt pop album. I've explained to you well enough. Please stop trying to get admins to ban me simply because I (and other editors) recognize that the genre list that you got rid of was far more fitting. There's a new genre list now with sources but it is not Alt-pop. The album was already added to the wikipedia album pages for Alternative rock and art pop. I'm familiar with these genres and Fiona Apple specifically to know that it's accurate hence why the genre list has been that way for years. If you're adamant about sources, there is a source. Accusing me of not sourcing should be considered a false accusation at this point. Not all sources are equal either and I've tried explaining that to you. ] (]) 21:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::], you were given good advice which is to have this discussion on the article talk page which neither editor has posted at yet. This is a content dispute. If no action has been taken yet by an administrator, it's likely because they don't agree with your statement that action needs to be taken. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Okay, will do. Thank you Liz. ] (]) 22:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			=== Irrelevant sources and unnecessary changes to genre list on {{pagelinks|When the Pawn...}} ===
	5) User Mikkalai again makes third-party version:
			On October 22 2024, {{lu|Pillowdelight}} changed the genre list that has stood in place for years and has been a variation of the same variety of genres: Art pop, art rock, jazz, alternative rock, jazz rock, chamber pop and jazz pop. Across the biggest music sites, this is what the album is described as. The user changed it to Alt pop using a single irrelevant and unreliable source. The album is not described as such anywhere else. The user is going against the general consensus. Sources have now been added to the genre list and I don't feel as though that would mean I'm breaking any rules. The user is threatening to get another editor banned because they're uncooperative with how us other editors feel the genre list should look like. It's an album that has been categorized as rock by Pitchfork at the time of its release and was added to rock charts when released too.
	*(cur) (last) 23:31, 8 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs)
			Here's how the genre list has looked over a long period of time, without much controversy from editors not readers:
	*(cur) (last) 23:29, 8 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (→Other similar cases)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1178937091 from 2023
	*(cur) (last) 23:28, 8 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs)
	*(cur) (last) 23:27, 8 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (Person convicted for hate speach qualify as political prisoner and dissident - see Misplaced Pages definitions)
	*(cur) (last) 23:15, 8 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (defamatory citation of unreliable souce was removed - see discussion on living persons noticeboard)
	*(cur) (last) 00:11, 3 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (This is YOUR interpretation. Even court sentence does not say that.)
	*(cur) (last) 00:07, 3 January 2007 Biophys (Talk | contribs) (→Commentaries)
	*(cur) (last) 08:12, 30 December 2006 Mikkalai (Talk | contribs) (→Arrest and trial - rephrase intro for quotations)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1049316366 from 2021
			Thank you. ] (]) 19:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	Should I acquit myself of non-agreeing on compromise versions after this? ] 12:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:Why do people have to argue about what genre music is rather than just listening to it, and hopefully enjoying it? ] (]) 19:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::The genre list was fine and accurate and uncontroversial until this user decided to remove the entire thing. It's important that the genre list is accurate. People find albums through genres. There's other reasons as well. ] (]) 20:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::This is neither here nor there, but I thought albums are generally sorted in alphabetical order by band name or the musician's last name.
			:::Please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or my information is incomplete. ] (]) 22:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I was trying to explain the important of listing genres accurately. If you go to a record store then yes, albums are listed in alphabetical order. But they're still put in categories of genres. ] (]) 22:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::If we were going to list musical genres "accurately," we wouldn't bother at all. Except in very broad strokes ("rock," "punk," "Baroque," etc), so many of these horribly subjective "genres" are made up by bored media writers and bands that hate the notion of being The Same As Everyone Else. Get ten people to listen to ten different tracks of heavy metal, and you won't get as many as a third of them agreeing on any of them on the doom/grudge/dark/death/Goth/Viking/sludge/*-grind/*-core/etc etc etc spectrum. Beyond that, arguing whether any given artist is "that genre" is ''very'' highly subjective. (Hell, I've sung Baroque, classical, folk, rock, ethnic, shape note, so many genres I can't readily count.) ] 15:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			== Bunch of racist IPs/account ==
	:We are not discussing IB content issues here. Please keep this on track - we are discussing incivility issues. And I don't see Vlad addressing this anywhere, only his attempts to change the topic.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 13:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=Sent packing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			Article: ]
			* {{user|GREEKMASTER7281}}
			* {{ip|112.202.57.150}}
			* {{ip|186.154.62.233}}
			] (]) 13:53, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Named account indeffed, IPs blocked for 72 hours each. ]] 14:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	(outdent) In response to Vlad, CEM is designed to be streamlined and shorter than arbitration. Mediation can be over as soon as both parties agree to a solution and the community ratifies it. Arbitration usually takes a month to six weeks. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 14:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Urgent need for page protection on BLP ==
	(comment on the whole thing) I’ve been involved with Biophys and Vlad on ] and all I got was this ]. —]<sub>]</sub> 14:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{atop
			| result = Protection applies. Appears admin eyes are on the Talk page. ] ] 19:53, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			}}
			There is currently a content dispute going on at ] involving allegations of a mental health crisis with mulitple IPs involved in a dispute over wether the information is reliable or not. A discussion is underway on the article's talkpage, but in the meantime there is revert warring taking place on the article. The page could really benefit from temporary semi protection. -- ] (]) 18:46, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Yes, I agree to follow ] process. But it seems to be designed to resolve content differences. The original issue here was completely different: alleged ] violations by Vlad (and perhaps me?). '''So, what is your decision?''' Please punish us both as we deserve. I am a wikipedia-abiding citizen and ready to pay the price for any wrongdoing.] 14:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC) Seriously, '''Vlad fedorov wished me to die''' (see ) and received a notice about it from Alex Bakharev but deleted it from his talk page.] 14:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:Looks like ] got it. ] (]) 19:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::{{reply to|DMacks}} Thanks! Yeah. I assume they will also need a third-party closer given the heated nature of the argument. -- ] (]) 19:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Multiple users breaking 3RR on Gilman School article ==
	: And how about that offense (is it something of sexual nature?) which Vlad claimed at talk pages of several users: .] 15:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:There are other users who did not dare to complain about Vlad. See this: . I believe saying "Liach" in this context is an offense. And how about his "Then you better visit your doctor" hinting that another user is insane?] 15:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	::I was not aware of those. Certainly saying that 'users on Misplaced Pages would be happy if you'd die' classifies as a serious NPA and is close to a death threat. There is no doubt Vlad has made many personal attacks and this needs to be addressed.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 16:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Biophys could you please stop clogging that page with multiple same messages. First of all< I was already punished by Alex Bakharev for this so-called death wish. You cannot punish me twice for one and the same instance. Second, the whole context of this death wish is ignored by you all. I have posted the context below. Biophys suggested what would be if Putin would die. I have made the same assumption in regard of Biophys. That wasn't death wish at all. If I wrote death wish to Biophys, than Biophys wrote death wish to Putin. If I offensed Biophys, then Biophys offensed Putin. Then we should be both punished.] 16:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			Two users are actively engaged in an ongoing edit war on ], with both {{user13|Counterfeit_Purses}} breaking 3RR , , , and {{user13|Statistical_Infighting}} being right at 3 Reverts
	:There are other users who did not dare to complain about Vlad. See this: . I believe saying "Liach" in this context is an offense. And how about his "Then you better visit your doctor" hinting that another user is insane?] 15:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			, , .
			This seems to go back to December 9th, with the first editor (Counterfeit) removing it and , on the 17th, , and then being at the above today.
	::Sorry, but I did an appropriate encyclopedic edit of article ] (deleted by Alex Bakharev who did not agree with me). Please see: It says in the chapter "'''In satire'''": "When Russian president ] called on his nation's women to have more children, journalist Vladimir Rakhmankov wrote a satiric article calling Putin "''the nation's phallic symbol''". .] 16:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			] (])
	:::Sorry, it wasn't satire, because the journalist who published this article was sentenced for defamation of a living person. By inserting his article here you also defamed a living person. If you call reproduction of personal offences, defamations in Misplaced Pages "an appropriate encyclopedic edit", well, that's your POV.] 16:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			*E/C applied. ] ] 19:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::{{u|Counterfeit Purses}}, please be aware that the ] article was kept in a recent Articles for Deletion debate, so the consensus of the community is that he is notable. Edit warring to keep his name off the alumni list is a ''really bad idea''. ] (]) 20:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::@] No problem, I've already given up. I would argue that ] applies here, but there's no sense in pushing against the tide. If you're content to have the lede section of Gilman School include "prominent graduates including "alleged murderer Luigi Mangione", I guess that's fine. It seems to be an unusual thing to include and an obvious case of undue weight given to something that is in the news at the moment. Perhaps someone should start a Wikiproject to add famous murderers to the ledes of other schools? ] (]) 22:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::{{u|Counterfeit Purses}}, in my view, ] is among our most misunderstood policy documents. It begins {{tpq|In principle, all Misplaced Pages articles should contain up-to-date information. Editors are also encouraged to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events.}} I believe that Mangione is notable, the evolving article is acceptable, and his name belongs in the alumni list. Many, many "bad people" are listed as alumni in countless school articles, and it is not at all unusual. The only unusual thing here is that the lead of this particular school article lists alumni, and so I have removed them from the lead. ] (]) 01:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I'm glad that misunderstanding WP:NOTNEWS is so common because I am going to continue to misunderstand it. I see that Liz Luigi Mangione from the lede before you removed the rest of the list. Acknowledging again that I have given up hope that Mangione will be removed from this article, let me ask you what you think the purpose of these alumni lists is? Including Mangione is an editorial decision. We don't include all notable alumni in these lists, so why should we include Mangione, and why now? It's too soon to know if he will have lasting relevance. ] (]) 04:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::{{tqq|We don't include all notable alumni in these lists}} Why not? If someone is Wikinotable and went to a Wikinotable school, then they belong in the "Notable alumni" section of that school's page, ] - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::@] I'm not saying "we shouldn't", I'm saying "we don't". We don't include every notable alumnus in these lists, nor should we because it would lead to long, unhelpful lists stuck in the middle of articles about the schools. ] (]) 04:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::If an alumni list bloats an article, it can be split out. See ]. 11:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC) (Oops, signing) ] (]) 16:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Of course that's always an option, but what I am saying is that it isn't desirable to have every alumnus listed in an article for a school. Ideally, it would be a selection of alumni who have made significant achievements in their field. Otherwise, it's just trivia. Am I wrong? ] (]) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Yes. You're making a value judgment that some alumni (with articles, else they most definitely should not be included) are more notable than others. That is ]. ] (]) 20:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Yes, that's called editorial judgment. Just like deciding not to include every known fact about something in an article. At some point, it is just trivia. Misplaced Pages is not a database. That info would probably be welcome over on Wikidata, which is a database. Alternatively, someone could just add ] (in this case). ] (]) 20:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::And a new user, who doesn't understand categories and has no idea Wikidata exists, is relying on the list on the page. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			== Persistent addition of unsourced content by 2600:480A:4A72:6000:0:0:0:0/64, yet again ==
	===Multiple instances of Biophys calling me vandal, wikistalker and so on===
			{{atop|1=Genre warrior sent packing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			{{userlinks|2600:480A:4A72:6000:0:0:0:0/64}} - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, hasn't responded to warnings, and continued the same behaviour immediately following the end of a 3 month block. See block log and the two previous ANI threads from September (], ]) related to this /64. Recent examples of addition of unsourced content: {{diff|You Could Be Born Again|prev|1264637321|1}}, {{diff|Kites are Fun|prev|1264637435|2}}, {{diff|Heaven/Earth|prev|1264641723|3}}, {{diff|Stars/Time/Bubbles/Love|prev|1264642096|4}}, {{diff|...Sing for Very Important People|prev|1264642646|5}}. ] (]) 20:33, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:I see the genre warriors are out today. Don't you realise how childish you are? (Not you, ].) ] (]) 20:37, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I thought I was the only one who noticed how many were running rampant today. So exhausting. . . ] (]) 20:45, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::/64 blocked for six months. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 22:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User:NoahBWill2002 ==
	Please just see Biophys contributions page and just count instances:
			{{atop|1=NOTHERE blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|NoahBWill2002}}
			It looks like there's a pretty severe ] issue with this user. Virtually every one of their edits has had to be reverted either for adding copyrighted content/, (), or . Lastly and indicates that they're unlikely to learn from any of this. <br>
			(As an aside, I just blocked them on Commons for uploading non-free files after warnings (and having copyright/the issue with their uploads explained them in detail) and uploading out-of-scope files after warnings.)<br>
			I think admin action is warranted here. ] (]) 22:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:I 100% agree with ] on this. ] appears completely unable to comprehend and/or follow some of the core rules of Misplaced Pages, especially ] and ], despite multiple editors trying to help them understand. The comment that Squirrel Conspiracy , followed by a series of blatant copyright violations, makes it abundantly clear that this editor is not going to change and is not here to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 22:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::They have only had an account for a few days. It's seems rather soon to proclaim they are "not going to change". The images they were trying to add have been deleted from the Commons, let's see if they can find other ways to contribute to the project now that they can't promote their artwork here. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 23:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Given ], I'm not sanguine about their intention to contribute productively. ] (]/]) 23:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::They added ] grossly inappropriate religious screed to ] on their third day of editing, then they responded to a warning about it with ]. I had hoped they would get the message but just today they made ] non-NPOV edit apparently based on their religious beliefs. Apart from religious edits, apparently the only other thing they've done is add self-produced fan art to a variety of articles. I'm willing to AGF while they learn what are acceptable edits here but I'd like to see some acknowledgement from them that they understand why all their edits so far have been unacceptable. (It would also show good faith if they would clean up the now-broken links in numerous articles now that their fan art has been deleted from Commons, rather than leaving it for other editors to do.) ] (]) 00:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I have indefinitely blocked NoahBWill2002 as not here to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 01:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Vandal encounter ==
	*05:20, 10 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Ramzan Kadyrov ((rv VANDALISM - translation was taken from English language source that satisfy WP:SOURCE))
	*04:44, 10 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Ramzan Kadyrov (rv VANDALISM - translation was taken from English language source that satisfy WP:SOURCE))
	*02:41, 9 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Grigory Svirsky (rv vandalism)
	*02:39, 9 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Persecution of political bloggers (rv vandalism - see talk page)
	*02:35, 9 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 April 2 (→Category:Victims of Soviet repressions)
	*02:33, 9 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Active measures ((rv to version of Rich Farmbrough Talk | contribs) at 21:22, 1 April 2007 (deletion of well referenced and appropriate text is vandalism))
	*02:31, 9 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Nikolai Koltsov (rv vandalism)
	*18:47, 7 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Nikolai Koltsov (rv vandalism. The source WAS identified. It is review in Nature Review Genetics, a more than reliable secondary source)
	*18:45, 7 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Grigory Svirsky (rv - deletion of sourced text is vandalism)
	*18:44, 7 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Active measures (rv to version of Rich Farmbrough (Talk | contribs) at 21:22, 1 April 2007 (deletion of well referenced and appropriate text is vandalism),)
	*18:42, 7 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Persecution of political bloggers (rv - I have improved the article (and worked a lot!), but you simply blanked everything about Russia - this is vandalism!))
	*18:40, 7 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Persecution of political bloggers (rv - I have improved the article (and worked a lot!), but you simply blanked everything about Russia - this is vandalism!))
	*03:47, 7 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Nikolai Koltsov (rv vandalism (review in Nature Review Genetics is a reliable secondary source; see talk page))
	*20:02, 4 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Union of Councils for Soviet Jews (rv - (restoring text after vandalism) - see talk page (the text was supported by reliable sources)))
	*20:01, 4 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Nikolai Koltsov (rv vandalism (review in Nature Review Genetics is a reliable secondary source; see talk page))
	*17:48, 3 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Nikolai Koltsov (rv vandalism (review in Nature Review Genetics is a reliable secondary source; see talk page))
	*17:26, 3 April 2007 (hist) (diff) Persecution of political bloggers (rv - (restoring text after vandalism) - see talk page)
	*22:15, 31 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Persecution of political bloggers (rv - restoring article after vandalism, see talk page)
	*19:15, 30 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Persecution of political bloggers (rv - restoring article after vandalism)
	*19:14, 30 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Talk:Persecution of political bloggers (Vandalism again)
	*18:41, 27 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Active measures (rv -vandalism - see talk page)
	*18:40, 27 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Nikolai Koltsov (rv -vandalism - see talk page)
	*18:39, 27 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Persecution of political bloggers (rv - vandalism - see talk page)
	*18:38, 27 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Talk:Persecution of political bloggers (→Biophys false translation and personal attacks)
	*18:31, 27 March 2007 (hist) (diff) User talk:Vlad fedorov (Vandalism warning)
	*14:57, 27 March 2007 (hist) (diff) User talk:Alison (Vandalism report)
	*14:46, 27 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Talk:Active measures (Alledged vandalism)
	*04:32, 27 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Persecution of political bloggers (rv - restoring well sourced text about BLOGGERS - I warn you: what you are doung is vandalism)
	*04:31, 27 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Nikolai Koltsov (rv well sourced text - I warn you: what you are doung is vandalism)
	*04:30, 27 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Active measures (rv - restoring sourced text (I warn you: what you are doing is vandalism))
	*05:35, 1 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Talk:Lubyanka Criminal Group (←Created page with '==Wikistalking by Vlad Fedorov== Please note that "unreliable defamatory materials" should only be removed from a biography of a living person described in his arti...')
	*22:49, 21 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Galina Starovoitova (rv - wikistalging - see discussion)
	*22:39, 20 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Putin's Russia (rv vandalism and POV editing of wikistalker - see talk page)
	*22:38, 20 February 2007 (hist) (diff) David Satter (rv vandalism of wikistalker - see talk page)
	*22:36, 20 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Galina Starovoitova (rv vandalism of wikistalker - see talk page)
	*22:35, 20 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Union of Councils for Soviet Jews (rv vandalism (each cited statement was supported by a reference))
	*16:40, 20 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Galina Starovoitova (rv - wikistalking - see talk page)
	*16:39, 20 February 2007 (hist) (diff) David Satter (rv - wikistalking - see talk page)
	*16:38, 20 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Union of Councils for Soviet Jews (rv - wikistalking - see talk page)
	*16:04, 20 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Talk:Galina Starovoitova (Wikistalking by Vlad Fedorov)
	*16:00, 20 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Talk:David Satter (→Vandalism by Vlad Fedorov)
	*15:55, 20 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Talk:David Satter (Wikistalking by Vlad Fedorov)
	*15:50, 20 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Talk:Union of Councils for Soviet Jews (Wikistalking by Vlad Fedorov)
	*05:22, 19 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Putin's Russia (rv vandalism by Vlad Fedorov - see discussion; he also removed links to reviews of the book)
	*05:18, 19 February 2007 (hist) (diff) GRU (rv vandalism by Vlad Fedorov - this is supported by refrences 4,5,6, and the content of Misplaced Pages articles that are provided as links)
	*05:11, 19 February 2007 (hist) (diff) David Satter (rv vandalism of Vlad Fedorov - correctly describing ideas of author is not violation of BLP policy; this is quite the opposite)
	*22:50, 16 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Yevgenia Albats (rv to last version by Biophys (BLP and reverting vandalism) - see discussion)
	*05:05, 15 February 2007 (hist) (diff) David Satter (rv vandalism by Vlad Fedorov - see discussion. The source are the books.)
	*05:07, 14 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Yevgenia Albats (rv - vandalism; she does NOT work now for Izvestia; she was fired)
	*21:39, 13 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Human rights in Russia (rv vandalism (reliable and notable source - see discussion))
	*20:11, 13 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Human rights in Russia (rv vandalism)
	*06:24, 13 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Human rights in Russia (rv vandalism by Vlad Fedorov)
	*04:54, 13 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Human rights in Russia (rv - vandalism (deleting valid reference to a notable person); there are no BLP issues here)
	*05:47, 10 February 2007 (hist) (diff) David Satter (rv - vandalism)
	*00:52, 9 January 2007 (hist) (diff) Disinformation (rv vandalism by Vlad Fedorov. I did not remove anything. I made this more clear and added more text.)
	*06:42, 30 December 2006 (hist) (diff) Boris Stomakhin (rv - "Jesus Christ was crucified not by the Jews, but by Chechens" is falsification by Vlad Fedorov - see my comments in Litvinenko talk page)
	*05:46, 29 December 2006 (hist) (diff) Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation (rv vandalism by user Vlad Fedorov)
	*02:54, 28 December 2006 (hist) (diff) Human rights in Russia (Vandalism by user Vlad Fedorov has been reverted - 3rd time. This is statement by directer of a notable human rights organization.)
	*18:20, 27 December 2006 (hist) (diff) Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation (Vandalism by user Vlad Fedorov has been reverted second time.)
	*18:16, 27 December 2006 (hist) (diff) Human rights in Russia (Vandalism by user Vlad Fedorov has been reverted second time.)
	*15:54, 27 December 2006 (hist) (diff) Alexander Litvinenko (Vandalism by user Vlad Fedorov reverted.)
	*15:49, 27 December 2006 (hist) (diff) Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation (Vandalism by user Vlad Fedorov reverterd. Naftalin and others (not me!) are talking about suppression of a dissident.)
	*15:45, 27 December 2006 (hist) (diff) Human rights in Russia (Vandalism by user Vlad Fedorov reverted. Naftalin is talking about ethnic problems here.)
			] seems to be a vandal who seems to be ready to start an edit war. I have reverted their disruptive edits, and they have begun to add them back.
	:'''Reply'''. Could anyone trace my recent edits of articles ], ], ], ], ] and others (with their talk pages where I explained my position) and ''check if editing by Vlad was actually a vandalism?'' What he always did was deletion of texts supported by perfect references! He even did not want to recognize such sources as ] Review Genetics (article ]). I openly warned him about vandalism twice in his talk pages (he deleted this) and openly asked advice of administrators twice (see my talk page). ''But if I was uncivil, then yes, please do whatever is appropriate''. ] 18:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			diffs: </nowiki>] </nowiki>] </nowiki>] </nowiki>]
	::Biophys, please note how different your to texts: that I disputed initially and which became the result of my dispute. So you claim this was vandalism?] 13:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			I would have put this at AIV, but I have no clue how to edit source. ] (]) 23:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	===Other instances of Biophys personal attacks against me===
			:{{not done}} - Not an admin - I hate to be that person but unfortunately you've not sufficiently warned them, They've only received one warning and their edits aren't gross vandalism so this would only be declined by an admin anyway, If they continue I'll report them to AIV, Thanks, –]<sup>]</sup> 23:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	1) User Biophys on his User page put the following: .
			::Ah, I see. Thank you! This has been noted for the future. Thank you, again! ] (]) 23:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::You're welcome, Happy editing, Thanks, –]<sup>]</sup> 23:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			== ] mass-creating articles for non-notable or nonexistent places ==
	2) Biophys has created an article which he titled ], which is based on single unreliable source - immigration advertisement newspaper with circulation less than 5 000. And on the talk page to this article Biophys has created section entitled "KGB trolls in Misplaced Pages?"
			{{atop
	, where he invites everyone to his talk page entitled "Vlad" - ]. At this page user ] ], that I and administrator Alex Bakharev are working for the Russian government. Considering that user Biophys entitled his section on the ] talk page "KGB trolls in Misplaced Pages?", it is clear that Biophys publicly slanders and defames me and Alex Bakharev. ] 17:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			| result = GDJackAttack1 has agreed to no further creation of the problematic articles. Extant ones being handled via usual channels. No further action needed here. ] ] 02:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			}}
			{{user|GDJackAttack1}} has been mass-creating stub articles for places such as insignificant residential subdivisions and other localities in Alabama and Maryland (]), islands in the Bahamas and Senegal (]), and other insignificant highways and airports around the world. None of these articles are sourced by anything that verifies notability, just databases and maps, which has resulted in at least one article being pointed out as a map misreading and therefore nonexistent community at ]. I can only speculate how many more of these places do not exist and if any of them are ]s.
	3) Another cover-up of personal .] 17:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			There are too many of these articles to send through AfD or PROD manually and there is really no point in draftifying them or converting the articles into redirects since we have little proof that these topics are notable or even exist at all. Their ] consists of nothing but notices of their articles being moved to the draftspace, AfD/PROD notices, and messages informing them to be more careful about article creation, yet they have seemingly ignored these messages and have persisted with spamming these stub articles for no clear reason. <span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#3366cc">]&nbsp;]&nbsp;]</span> 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	4) Calling me a .
			:I will stop creating these articles. ] (]) 01:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	5) Calling me .
			:I tagged one as '''CSD A7''' to see if that would work. ] ] 01:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::{{replyto|Bgsu98}} Thank you, I also considered PROD-ing them all but I noticed you have so already. <span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#3366cc">]&nbsp;]&nbsp;]</span> 02:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::I think I got all of the ones that that Maryland batch, but I’m sure there are more. ] ] 02:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User:Glenn103 ==
	6) Calling me a stalker and vandal
			{{userlinks|Glenn103}} has been mass creating unsourced stubs about Cyrillic letters, most of which have been draftified. They've also disruptively edited in the past, such as: <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ])</span> 01:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Most of these pages don't even make any sense (eg.: ]). The user also ignores any notice about his articles being moved to draftspace by simply recreating duplicates of them (eg.: ] & ]). Immediate action may be needed. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 07:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Given a uw-create4im with directions to come here, let's see what happens. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::They've continued editing, this time adding infoboxes to the articles, so I don't think the warning worked... <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ])</span> 08:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I have blocked them from article space and page moves, and will leave note on talk page to come here. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 15:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			Honestly, this almost feels like trolling. Their basic procedure seems to be: pick a random Cyrillic letter. Combine it with a random diacritic. Write a short stub on the combination, saying effectively "this letter combination is not used anywhere." The occasional historical mentions ("this combination was used in such-and-such obscure Siberian language") are completely unsourced, of course. (Everything is unsourced.) ] (]) 04:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Excuse me for detracting from the report, but this was your 4th edit, your last edit was in January 2016... how have you found yourself here of all places?
	7) And again I am
			:I mean you might have a point, but wow. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 04:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			Similar behavior to {{checkuser|PickleMan500}} and other socks puppeted by {{checkuser|Abrown1019}}, which also made tons of drafts on Cyrillic characters that cited few sources (and none with in-depth coverage). Most drafts have been ]'d, of course, so only those with admin perms can verify the deleted contribs. <small>Since these socks have been banned (]), I haven't notified them of this discussion.</small> ] (] '''·''' ]) 17:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			==TPA for 83.106.86.95==
	You know guys, I am actually tired of putting here all the links where Biophys attacked me, because these are of enormous quantity and would just clogg all the board.
			{{atop|1=Done. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			{{userlinks|83.106.86.95}}
			Could someone revoke TPA for blocked IP, based on ? ] (]) 02:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	At the top of it is the creation of attack page against me titled ]. Just in order to call a troll all those who dared to defend not even Putin's policy, but him as an ordinary man.] 17:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:Done and revdel'ed, thanks to JJMC89. ] (]) 02:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	===Allegations of death wish by Biophys===
			{{abot}}
			== Can you please help? ==
	First of all, here is the complete context for your claims that I wished you to die:
			] got moved from ] (because his middle name might not be John). But the talk page for this person is at ], and the talk page for the disambiguation page is at ]. I don't know what happened to the disambiguation page, and I don't know how to fix this. ] (]) 02:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	----
			:{{done}} Couldn't be moved because the target page had to be deleted; its now fixed. As a note for the future, ] would be a better place for this, since it isn't an 'incident'. That said - ''was'' there a dab page at ] before? - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	I have created a stub about ] blog because it seems to be relevant to the subject of this article. But the stub was marked for deletion: ] as not notable. So, everyone is welcome to tell his/her opinion or improve this stub. ] 20:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
			::Thanks to everyone for resolving this. As to the place for this, at some point I was told that "if you're a new user you have no reason to post at ]" or something similar. I appreciate the help. ] (]) 05:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	: I think it is "La Russophobe" with an e. Google the two and see what comes up most. ] 23:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
			:(edit conflict) I think that the disambiguation page's revisions were merged into the history of the moved page, if I'm reading ] correctly.
	:: Biophys ne parle pas francaise. His ignorance is well-depicted by articles on Vladimir Putin and Boris Stomakhin. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 09:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
			:@], can you confirm what happened/fix this? &ndash; ] (]) (]) 02:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	::: Thanks. My mistake. But this article will probably be deleted. Next time I will make it right. But I did not write much about ], because Putin is unimportant. He is not ]. Just imagine that Putin suddenly dies. What will change in Russia? Absolutely nothing.] 16:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
			::Actually, WAS that the intention (merging the histories)? I have no idea how this works.
	:::: The same would be in Russia if Biophys would die too. Absolutely nothing, except for a few happy people in Misplaced Pages.] 08:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
			::Maybe The Bushranger already did all that needed to be done. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 02:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	] 16:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:::(edited): There was a dab page with two entries. It is now a redirect from William Swainson to William John Swainson and the direction is now different. The full histories are (merged) restored and visible. PS: I have added a hat-note to the one other (far less notable) lawyer - ] - if there are many more entries to be dealt with then the (currently a redirect) page at ] could be reinstated/used. ] (]) 02:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	----
			::::(nac) An intitle search turned up no other William Swainson, so I've tagged {{-r|William_Swainson_(disambiguation)}} (which has no significant history) for speedying under ]. ] (]) 06:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			== POVPushingTheTruth ==
	After putting the relevant context, I would like to note that there is no actually death wish, because I am replying to death suggestion by Biophys. He tell '''imagine if''' Putin dies. I replied '''the same would be'''. In this context if I made personal attack, Biophys also made personal attack against Putin. I just defended him as an ordinary man who deserves the same kind of respect as other individuals, despite all his wrong, bad an so on sides, features and so on.
			{{atop|1=The truth may set you free, but ] will get you blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			] is clearly NOTHERE. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 05:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Blocked. -- ] (])| <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added 05:09, 23 December 2024 (UTC)</small><sup>]</sup>
			{{abot}}
			== North Korean involvement in Russian-Ukraine war discussion ==
	Second, I was punished for this By Alex Bakharev. So I can't be punished twice for one and same thing. ] 17:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			The inclusion of North Korea as a belligerent in the infobox for the "Russian invasion of Ukraine" article has been a point of extensive and protracted discussion since September. A formal Request for Comment (RfC) on this matter ran for several weeks and was closed with a clear consensus to include North Korea as a combatant based on reliable sources and expert analysis. However, despite the closure, the discussion has continued unabated across multiple threads, with certain editors repeatedly rehashing resolved points and questioning the validity of reliable sources, leading to significant disruption.
	I also apoligoze if Biophys accepted this a personal attack. ] 17:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			'''Key Points:'''
	===Allegations of attack with Phallus===
			# '''Prolonged Discussions and RfC Closure:'''
	Sorry, it wasn't satire, because the journalist who published this article was sentenced for defamation of a living person - Putin. By inserting his article here you also defamed a living person. If you call reproduction of personal offences, defamations in Misplaced Pages "an appropriate encyclopedic edit", well, that's your POV. ] 17:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			#* The RfC on North Korea's inclusion was conducted thoroughly, with a wide range of arguments presented by both sides.
			#* The closing administrator, S Marshall, determined there was a clear consensus to include North Korea as a belligerent based on reliable sources and the strength of arguments.
			#* The close explicitly allowed for reevaluation if new battlefield events or sources emerged, but no substantial new evidence has invalidated the prior consensus.
			# '''Ongoing Disruption:'''
			#* Despite the RfC's resolution, the same arguments are being repeated across multiple threads, often by the same editors.
			#* This behavior includes undermining reliable sources, misrepresenting their content, and insisting on a higher standard of verification (e.g., requiring firsthand evidence of North Korean combat, which is unreasonable given the context).
			# '''Reliable Sources Confirming North Korean Involvement:'''
			#* Multiple reputable outlets, including the BBC, Reuters, and Pentagon statements, confirm North Korean military involvement and casualties in the conflict.
			#* Experts from institutions like Chatham House and RUSI have explicitly stated North Korea's role in combat, aligning with the community's decision.
			# '''Impact on the Community:'''
			#* The continued disruption consumes editor time and resources, detracting from the article's improvement.
			#* These actions disregard Misplaced Pages's consensus-building principles and guidelines for resolving disputes. This dispute has been ongoing for months, with multiple threads being opened and closed on the same topic.
			'''Request for Administrative Action:'''
	I have been talking about your continuous insertion of Putin phallus allegations into the ] and other articles. '''Most outrageous was your insertion of "Putin Phallus" into ] article, despite the fact that the author of this article is a journalist and it was published in internet newspaper, not blog'''. Considering that you have so many times inserted this into many articles, it would be logic to conclude that you love that topic. By the way this was the only my such post and it was because you have contacted the users with whom I had conversation on ] article. You began to contact them posting to their talk pages messages that RfC was filed by you against me , , , , , . It was a case of wikistalking by you, since no one of these users have ever crossed your article and you never was participating in ]. Moreover in all these "requests for help" you was attacking me too, you said I "wikistalkied" you and all your usual stuff.] 15:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			I respectfully request that administrators address the following issues:
	::Here is your repeated insertion of Putin Phallus into ] article , although Kursiv is not a blog, but registered internet newspaper, having registration number in Ministry of Mass Media.] 10:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			# Enforce the consensus reached in the closed RfC, as no new evidence significantly alters the previous conclusions.
	Here just notice from your talkpage:
			# Discourage editors from rehashing resolved discussions, particularly when arguments have been repeatedly addressed and dismissed.
	I could not help but notice
			# Consider imposing a topic ban or other appropriate measures on editors who persist in disrupting the article with repetitive or bad-faith arguments.
			This matter has been discussed exhaustively, and it is essential to prioritize Misplaced Pages's goals of maintaining a high-quality, well-sourced, and consensus-driven encyclopedia.
	that your ] =====> "national phallus" addition to the ] article has been removed. This is the second time the same posting has been removed, both times by the same editor, ]. ] 02:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
			Thank you for your attention to this matter.
			UPDATE: I just noticed that North Korea was removed as a belligerent and added to the 'supported by' section, completely violating the consensus.
			] (]) 08:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Since this report isn't really about an incident and your request is directed towards admins, I think this complaint would be better placed at ] rather than ANI. It will also need more specifics, which articles, which edits, which editors. You'll need to provide that. I also question whether or not these are content standards that the community can't handle on their own. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I was going to post it at ] but it said: "'''This noticeboard is for issues affecting administrators generally – announcements, notifications, information, and other matters of''' ''general administrator interest.''
			::If your post is about a '''specific problem you have''' (a '''dispute''', user, help request, or other narrow issue needing an administrator), you should post it at the ''']''' (ANI) instead. Thank you."
			::I posted it on ANI beecause my specific problem was this dispute ] (]) 12:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::The original post in this thread appears to resemble LLM output. GPTzero confirms this impression, rating text as "99% probability AI generated". Using AI to generate ANI submissions is highly inappropriate. ] (]) 18:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Even when a message appears to be AI-generated, I think it is worth considering whether or not it is pointing out an actual problem. I think editors might be ignoring the results of an RFC, I just don't think asking for administrators to monitor a subject area, without identifying specific articles, is a feasible solution. It does seem like, possibly, a point that could come up in a complaint at AE regarding the Ukraine CTOP area. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:55, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I had a peek and it's a messy RfC and, as is generally the case with a messy RfC had a very involved closure message which seems to reflect that the closer felt constrained by the framing of the RfC. I didn't see any immediate indication in the edit history that anyone had tried to implement the RfC result and been rebuffed (although I might have missed it). So there's some smoke here but, I think, not a ton of fire. ] (]) 20:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Liz, I don't disagree but I'm not at all convinced that use of AI is a positive contribution to CTOP areas. ] (]) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::It was written with AI assistance. Not all AI. ai detectors aren’t considered reliable, because you can put the U.S. constitution through one and it says 100% AI generated. Regardless, whether it’s AI or not has nothing to do with the topic. It’s just that there’a been so many discussions and when I checked the info box it said ‘supported by”, violating the consensus of the RFC ] (]) 12:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I think the underlying issue here is that if you use AI to generate text which looks like obvious AI output then readers will wonder "does the end user even have sufficient English to understand what the AI has generated for them?" and "did the end user understand the material prior to deciding to employ AI?". Thus if a user is fluent in English, as you obviously are, it will always be better to communicate in your own voice.
			:::::::At the end of the day, a user making a valid point in their own voice is generally speaking going to be taken more seriously than a user employing LLM output.
			:::::::There are plenty of other reasons for users not to employ AI (see the recent thread here for extensive coverage) but the argument above seems like a good practical reason for fluent English speakers to always prefer using their own voice.
			:::::::You will see from the recent thread that many users here are vehemently against AI use. ] (]) 15:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::I understood the material very well, its not like I just used 100% AI out of nowhere. I know the context. I have been involved in this discussion since September. ] (]) 16:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::It's a respect thing. It's disrespectful of other editors to make them read chatbot output rather than ''your'' words. ] (]) 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			== Dispute Over Edits and Use of British Raj Sources ==
	] 15:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{Atop|Content dispute.--] (]) 15:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			Hello,
	===Defamation of me by Biophys===
			I’m seeking administrator input regarding a dispute with @] over the content in the the "]" article. The editor removed significant content, citing ] as justification. Here are my concerns:
	Biophys also began to contact different users by posting to their talk pages messages that RfC was filed by you against me , , , , , . In these messages he called me wikistalker. ] 17:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			'''1. Misapplication of Policy''':
	:'''Reply'''. I called you "wikistalker" because ] officially filed an RfC about your ''alleged wikistalking'' of him and me (sorry, I did not write "alleged").] 18:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			Sitush’s essays are not official Misplaced Pages policy. Content decisions should follow ], ], and ].
	::'''Counter-reply'''. You called me wikistalker, after adminstrators on RfC declined to acknowledge wikistalking. Moreover, it happened exactly when I decided to step aside from mine articles. I decide to tackle with ] and see the talk page. I have pretty nice discussion with these guys. But you have followed me and began you witch hunt by posting these defamatory statements, knowing already that Bakharev and others didn't shared you accusations of wikistalking, violations of BLP and so on.
			'''2. Dismissal of Reliable Sources''':
	::User Swatjester already said that you just can't leave without "your victory". I should add that you also couldn't leave without defaming me. You want harass me and to abuse me. This is exactly what you did posting these messages to other users. You just want to "cause me pain" by blocking me?
			The removed content was based on ]-era sources, which are neutral and historically significant. The editor claims these are unreliable without specific evidence or discussion on the article’s talk page.
	:::'''Reply'''. What victory? This is nonsense. I only wanted to keep well referenced text that you simply deleted. A lot of people edited my articles after me and I never had complaints because they did good faith editing. I also objected inserting poorly sourced defamatory claims in biographies of living people that you did. ] 21:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			'''3. Unilateral Edits and Dismissive Behavior''':
	:::Yes you never had complaints because you was shamelessly reverting and deleting their contributions in case you didn't like them labelling it as "anonymous vandalism", "unrealible sources", "defamation" and so on.] 06:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			Despite my attempts to discuss the matter constructively, the editor dismissed my concerns as "]" and warned me about sanctions under ] and ], discouraging collaboration.]
	:::May I note, that your poorly defamatory claims in biographies and other articles are objectionable too? Why I don't delete your insertions though? I would tell you, because I always was acknowledging my mistakes and I never crossed the line by deleting sourced text, although objectionable but somehow referenced. Tha is my difference from you. You sterilize texts of your opponents shamelessly. You claim violations of BLP everywhere when it fits you political views, the same is with reliability of sources. ] 04:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			'''Evidence''':
	::You excuses for "alleged" are of no avail. I never was writing to every editor of the articles which you have edited, that RfC was also filed against you. ] 18:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	===New attempts to eliminate others POV by Biophys===
	Please look there how Biophys again censures and deletes other work without credible explanations. Here is the . He creates an article where he inserts only his POV sources and then eliminates any attempts to insert all the POV's. It is he who sterilizes the articles. ] 19:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	===New personal attacks by Biophys===
			]
	Please see that Biophys even at AfD for Internet brigades. He claims that he accused me of vandalism at my RfC , but this is lies. Just go and see that he never brought charges of vandalism against me. This is again a personal attack just to get more score at AfD. Note that Biophys doesn't stop his personal attacks while he reports to this noticeboard. ] 10:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:This is just an example of you trying to misinterpret evidence. In the working diff, Biophys does not call you a vandal, he only refers the readers to RfC where such accusation was made. All of your above 'evidence' of personal attacks on you is in fact misinterpretation and an attempt to deflect discussion of your evident incivility to discussion of alleged incivility by one of those you have offended and who reported you here.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Could you, Piotrus, provide diffs in support of your statement, that Biophys has accused me of vandalism in my RfC? ] 06:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			'''Request for Administrative Action''':
	:::And please respond directly to my links that show Biophys calling me vandal, troll and wikistalker. If calling me "vandal", "troll" and "wikistalker" is civil? How many times Biophys mad personal attacks on me? Why no one has ever stopped Biophys from personal attacks on me?] 07:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			1. Review the removed content and the editor’s justification.
	===Commentary by a Third Party===
	After reading over the thread, I recommend to the administrator(s) addressing this thread that Vlad be blocked for five to seven days, because:
	* His edits suggest a major problem with edit warring.
	* He's been blocked multiple times in the past, once for block evasion.
	* He's already been blocked once this week for edit warring.
	* He's also committed a number of obvious ] violations, some of them on this page. Not the least of these was the implication that Misplaced Pages users would like to see Biophys dead (see above). Rather than apologize, he has tried to pass these comments off as legitimate, honest commentary, despite their obviously mean-spirited nature and the unusal harshness of his accusations.
			2. Ensure that disputes are discussed on the article’s talk page.
	It's clear to me that this user has a history and hasn't learned much from it. I invite Vlad to read over ], ], and ]. Also, I would like to point out to Vlad that while Biophys' addition to ] may not have been appropriate, it was indeed satire. Just because the author was convicted of a crime under (I assume) Russian laws does not mean that 1) his commentary is not satire or 2) that his commentary would necessarily be considered defamation under Misplaced Pages policy, which obviously has a substantially different position on both Putin and satire.
			3. Address the editor’s dismissive tone to foster collaboration.
	::Here I would like to note that journalist who wrote "Putin Phallus" was convicted and sentenced for defamation in Russian courts, therefore reproduction of a defamation texts is forbidden in Misplaced Pages. Mister ] should familiarize himself with the context and stuation first. Biophys used "satire" labelling just to insert defamatory statements of convicted and sentenced for defamation journalist. ] 04:08, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			4. Prevent further disruptive edits/vandalism by IP editors (which hasn't happened yet) And from Autoconfirmed users(e.g. @GrilledSeatJet , -) and even from Extended Autoconfirmed users(@]) by banning such editors and putting an extended protection on the Article which I have once put request ] for but it got denied and now the results are as follows.
	Biophys, I feel, should be treated with more leniency- while his actions have certainly been disruptive, he has not been as persistently disruptive as Vlad. While I feel it is fair to be harsh on Vlad because of his history, Biophys' block log is clean.
			Thank you for your time and attention. I’m happy to provide further information if needed.
	::See how many attacks were done by Biophys in his contributions! Is it not disruptive? ] 04:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			----Best Regards
			--- ] (]) 10:47, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	::Ok. This is just a discrimination. I have disputed my first block which was done by English speaking guy William Connely who coudn't ascertain whether the texts where supported by references. It is discrimination. Biophys so many times abused me, and in the end I got "just" and "discriminate" sentence by mister ] who isn't even administrator? Why so many evident Biophys violations are considered as light? Shouldn't sanctions be equal to everyone? Isn't everyone is equal here? ] 04:08, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{Abot}}
			== Nothing to say about me really bot ==
	::Please also see here that mediator disagrees with one of my block too, I always disputed this block. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AMediation_Cabal%2FCases%2F2007-02-10_Boris_Stomakhin&diff=110220318&oldid=110217877. ] 06:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{atop
			| result = Locked {{nac}}. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 13:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			}}
			*{{vandal|WilhelminaBlosse}}
	::I would like also everyone to see the bias in relation to me. Biophys has violated 3RR rule recently on Boris Stomakhin. I have reported him on noticeboard. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:Biophys_reported_by_User:Vlad_fedorov_.28Result:_Warning.29 3.114 User:Biophys reported by User:Vlad fedorov (Result: Warning) And what? User Biophys received only warning!!! This is so unjust. Sorry, but I can't name it otherwise than bias. I was blocked without warnings momentarily when Pioutrus and his team were reverting ] incorrect translations. ] 07:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			Please delete the user page, block the bot and report to stewards for a global block, as per ]. Thank you! ] (]) 11:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	I recommend a 36-hour block for disruptive editing, and that he be watched carefully for a little while. I don't think we have -too- much to worry about from Biophys beyond addressing the above, versus Vlad who has already demonstrated that he will be a persistent problem.
			{{abot}}
			== Concern About a New Contributor ==
	The content removed from ] (among other pages) should be evaluated for ''potential'' inclusion in ], under "Putin in humour and fiction." --] (]) 18:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{userlinks|Kriji Sehamati}}
			Dear Wikipedians,
	:'''Question'''. My another article, ] just has been marked for AfD. Can I at least finish this article before you block me? At least tell me please how much time do I have.] 22:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC) O'K, I finished this edit. Now you can block me.] 04:00, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Moralis, I think that's a pretty fair assessment. I have observed Vlad's behavior here and at ] and its vfd. For the most part I have tried to stay out of his way, but the two instances where I stepped in were unpleasant. I think a cooling-off period is in order. ] (]) 17:22, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			I hope you’re doing well. I wanted to inform you about a new contributor @], despite lacking experience, has repeatedly attempted to vandalize multiple articles. These articles were properly aligned with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines and reviewed by experienced contributors, but he/she seemed unwilling to understand or respect their adherence to the policies.
	== User G-Man sizing images for for his own display settings ==
			I believe your experience could help address this situation effectively.
	User G-Man , , , using sizes on thumbnail images, despite ] being placed on his talk page. ] 19:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:It looks like a couple of other editors contacted him about this after that last edit. Let's see if the message sticks.--] 20:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:: it hasn't. and now appears to have breached 3RR. ] 20:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Blocked 24 hours for 3RR. ] 20:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::Beat me to it... yeah he needs to get the clue.--] 20:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::While I don't give a damn what happens to G-Man, I thank you for starting this thread. I have added sizes to thumbnails I have entered, simply because I thought it was required. Now I know better. I actually learned something here today! :-) ] 20:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::I occasionally abuse the thumb option and then resize the image, it seems to be the only way to add a caption. --] <small>(])</small> 21:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
	So, wait, what are editors supposed to do with infoboxes? Those always ask for an image size. <span style="white-space: nowrap">— ]]</span> — 06:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	: Which they should not per ] (Rules of thumb #11). Images should be thumbed, not sized and then everyone can be happy by setting their own ]. --] 06:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Unfortunately size preferences cannot be referenced in infoboxes, which do not use the "thumb" parameter. --] 06:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::I too had not heard this rule, but now I have found out about the preferences setting it makes sense. However, I should point out that at least some featured articles do not comply with this rule. The current one, ], doesn't; I checked two more at random (] and ]) and both had non-compliant images. ] ] 20:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::News to me too, as it would probably be to most other folks who ever frequent FAC. I've never seen it mentioned there. --] 20:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::I think allowing for specific image size shouldn't be frowned upon. Sometimes it can help fix styling issues with the pages (or sometimes create some), and it also gets rid of the ugly thumb notification image at the bottom. ~ ] 21:31, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::It also doesn't appear the norm either. As someone else pointed out, many articles, including ], don't seem to do this. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 23:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
	I didn't even know this option existed, and I doubt many editors do, let alone readers, who don't even have that option and see all thumbs in 180px (which I think is too small). So I'm not surprised everyone uses the size tag. A default thumb size of 200px would be better, and could even be scaled depending on readers' screen DPI setting. --] <small>(])</small> 23:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			Looking forward to your advice on how to proceed.
	== Capella University ==
			Thankyou! ]] 15:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	As to be expected, the entry on ] is currently being vandalized again after having been locked due to edit wars caused by Capella University users in the past. At the moment, Capella University's Financial Aid Director is being investigated for received kickbacks from a student loan company for which he served on the board, in addition to his employment by the university. It appears as if the same user (who uses the name "Pizzaman" and involved in previous edit wars is now vandalizing the current entry. Pizzaman and other users from Capella University have been previously warned for TOS violations. It might be wise to restrict edits again in light of this individual's past.
			:"Vandalize" is a very loaded word here with a specific meaning. As far as I can tell, what they've done is nominate 4 articles for deletion, and your has been to accuse them of vandalism, ignoring dispute resolution procedures and making personal attacks – none of which I can see at a glance through their contributions.
	No sooner had I corrected ] and ] vandalism (while I was creating this post) and he has again vandalized the page and continues to engage in name calling and personal attacks.] 02:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:Perhaps if you supplied ] of this behaviour, someone would be able to help? If your issue is that they've nominated 4 articles of which you are a major contributor ''and'' are doing so by going through your contributions in order to find articles to nominate for deletion with specious reasons, then this board would be the place to come. If not, then making your arguments for keeping the articles on the AfDs in question would be your best bet.
	:You would be better off posting this to ]. I'll keep an eye on the article though... --]<small><sup>]• ]</sup></small> 02:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			:By the way is forum shopping. Stop that. ] (]) 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:(ec) This is an odd one. As S-Aura failed to provide diffs, I looked at Kriji Sehamati's contribution history. New account (9 Dec) began editing today, created two drafts and made a bunch of edits to those. Then began adding COI tags to articles S-Aura wrote, nominated those articles for deletion, and then left a template on S-Aura's talk page. Really seems to be something weird going on here between those two. (In addition to opening this ANI thread, S-Aura asked for help with basically the same message on the talk pages of Ipigott, Ryan shell, CFA, and BusterD, and S-Aura opened same complaint at AN.) ]&nbsp;] 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I am concerned that ]’s actions, including unjustified deletion nominations and spamming, are disruptive and violate Misplaced Pages’s guidelines.
			::She seems to lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related ] and ]. ]] 16:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::You were asked to provide diffs. You did, almost, but then reverted yourself. Those diffs (well, the ones before those diffs) are just the other user nominating articles for deletion (which is allowed) or tagging them for what they believe to be conflict of interest edits (which is also allowed).
			:::Please provide some actual evidence that the other user is engaging in chronic, intractable behaviour, rather than just not editing how you would like them to. ] (]) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Here are some diffs highlighting her problematic edits. However, I believe that many of her contributions may be in violation of Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. It appears she has specifically targeted me and added the COI tag multiple times to the same page. I would appreciate it if you could review her actions more thoroughly:
			:::: •
			:::: •
			:::: •
			:::: •
			::::and many more
			::::Thankyou! ]] 17:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::We wouldn't generally treat an AfD as vandalism. ] (]) 17:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I understand your point about AfDs not generally being treated as vandalism. However, I noticed that the major contribution history of the user seems suspicious. ]] 17:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Not from where anybody else is standing so far. I get that you're upset to have four articles of yours nominated for deletion, and if you have any evidence ''at all'' that you are being deliberately targeted by the other editor, then people will very much act on that. Please provide it. ] (]) 17:58, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::I am here to contribute and edit articles in accordance with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. However, today a new user targeted me and falsely blamed me for actions that are not accurate. I believe this is unfair and not in line with the collaborative nature of the platform. ]] 18:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Please provide evidence of this. ] (]) 18:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Please check! ]] 18:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::The articles that have been nominated for deletion discussion have been reviewed by experienced contributors. These discussions involve articles about judges and lawyers, under ], a valid criterion according to Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. Therefore, the deletion decision was made after carefully reviewing these articles. ]] 18:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Honestly it looks like this user, rightly or wrongly, believes you have a conflict of interest and are acting on the basis of that assumption. I would suggest, if you don't have a CoI, talking to them about this and maybe asking why they've come to this conclusion. ] (]) 18:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::They have just started targeting my contributions, and I tried to inform her about the situation. However, she is acting as if she knows everything about Misplaced Pages and is dismissing my concerns. ]] 18:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{od}}
			:{{ping|Kriji Sehamati}} hasn't edited since their AfD spree earlier today, let's wait and see what their response here is when they return to editing. ]&nbsp;] 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			*We need to stop focusing on the OP's calling this vandalism; it is not. I've changed the header to reflect that. That said, the new user's edits ''are'' problematic and merit scrutiny. As for the UPE stuff, I've removed that post from the OP's Talk page; it's nonsensical coming from a new user and does not merit a response.--] (]) 18:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			*It is, of course, not vandalism to nominate articles for AFD discussions as long as a legitimate deletion rationale is provided and the article hasn't just been discussed at a recent AFD. However, I don't think it's a good sign when a brand new editor claims to understand all of Misplaced Pages policies and whose first actions are to nominate articles at AFDs. They are almost never an actual new editor, especially when they know how to even set up an AFD or are familiar with using Twinkle on their first day of editing. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:It seems that she is not new to Misplaced Pages and might be operating multiple accounts. It appears she has an issue with one of my contributions, as she created her account just 15 days ago, yet she already has a good understanding of tools like Twinkle and AfD procedures. This level of familiarity suggests prior experience on the platform. I am now requesting her account to be blocked as I am completely disturbed by her repeated allegations and disruptive behavior. ]] 11:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::I am now genuinely confused—if all my contributions are not good, then why am I even here? Were the experienced editors who reviewed and approved these pages also mistaken? A newcomer, who joined just recently, is now disrupting and questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors. This situation is deeply discouraging. ]] 11:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::Please resolve this situation—either block her for her disruptive behavior. How can i continue working under such constant targeting and stress ? ]] 12:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::User:S-Aura, you seem to be making unsupported personal attacks against ]. You should provide specific evidence of wrongdoing, including diffs, or your arguments here will fall on deaf ears (and bring consequences for you). Meanwhile, as a filer on ANI, you have brought all your own edits to close scrutiny by the community. You may have to face that smart people disagree, and this is how we sort disagreements out on English Misplaced Pages. You are not required to edit, but we encourage you to do so. Nobody is going to block Kriji Sehamati at this point, because you've given us no reason to do so. ] (]) 12:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::Meanwhile, in the last few minutes S-Aura has disruptively about this exact issue on this same board, which by another editor. This is intentional disruption. ] (]) 12:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::As to the question "Why am I here?", poets and artists have been trying to answer this question for eons. Epistemology is outside the scope of this board, but there are articles about it. Show up to edit if you want to, but expect disagreement from time to time. (That's actually a sound answer to any epistemology question as well.) ] (]) 12:16, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::Dear @],
			*:::::It means I have been proven wrong, and that user’s contributions have been more focused on me, which is quite insufficient to catch someone’s lie that she is pretending to be new, when in fact she is old.
			*:::::Also, I am not against AfD; I am simply expressing my opinion. ]] 13:12, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::Could you please rephrase your point here? I don't understand. While it's okay to be suspicious that this editor is somehow socking or doing something else deceptive due to the familiarity, it seems unacceptable to deliberately accuse them of such repeatedly without firmer evidence. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::Dear @],
			*:::::::I am not engaged in paid activities on Misplaced Pages, and she claimed that I am connected with the subject, who is a judge, lawyer, etc. You all should understand that this is not a trivial matter; justice is a very respected position. Making such allegations can escalate court cases. I would like to remind you of the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI case. ]] 13:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::One thing you need to understand immediately is you should never make another post that sounds vaguely like a legal threat, as you've just done above. ] That intonation is seriously not helping us decide who's right or wrong here. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::Okay! ]] 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::I will caution you that this is tiptoeing right up to the edge of ] and you'd be advised to avoid making legal threats. ] (]) 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::Dear @],
			*:::::::::I am merely showing that she can potentially do something inappropriate. I am following the guidelines and not making any legal threats. ]] 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::Accusing another editor of potentially making legal threats is not much better, when there is no concrete evidence that they would do so. Being interested in articles about judges does not suffice. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::The page of Justice ], who had conducted over the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI court hearing, was also created by me. ]] 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::<del>State plainly what the implication you are making here is, because what I'm hearing is "I'm familiar with people who have hit Misplaced Pages with a mallet in court before, and I can make sure it happens again".</del> <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::This is becoming a rabbit hole. I urge you not to pursue the rabbit further. ] (]) 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::Good call, I'll retract the above. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::No, that is not what I am implying. ]] 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::No one has said your contributions are not good. However, it should be noted that a draft being accepted at AfC or a new page having been ] does not guarantee greater scrutiny would not result in a valid AfD nomination. That said, echoing others here it's clear something problematic is up with this user's behavior. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 12:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::You can't both criticize someone for {{tq|lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related ] and ]}}, and then argue that she is too familiar with the platform to be a newcomer for knowing how to file an AfD. I wouldn't be surprised if most people here knew how to file an AfD before knowing all 14 notability guidelines by heart. ] (] · ]) 12:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::There are detailed instructions on filing an AfD that can be found by googling "how can I get a Misplaced Pages page deleted" - if somebody had some personal reason for wanting to have pages removed it doesn't strain credibility to think that's why they created a WP account and that they just followed the very clear instructions on the appropriate pages.
			*:::In fact that might explain why some of the AfD filings were reasonable and some were, on their face, incorrectly filed. If you looked up the AfD ''process'' but not ''criteria'' that is the likely outcome. That's why I find the "new user files AfDs must be a sock" idea here somewhat uncompelling. ] (]) 13:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*I believe we're entering boomerang territory at this point. Opinions? ] (]) 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:I think OP is upset that a cluster of their articles were put up at AfD. This in itself is understandable, but while there's reason to think there might be mischief by Kriji Sehamati, we don't have any real evidence of it. We either need the OP to make it clearer what misconduct, if any, has occurred, or they need to ]. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::The OP has been intentionally disruptive (by creating a new ANI thread which was reverted), and this thread is going nowhere. IMHO, there's nothing ANI can do here. Everything I'm reading about should be resolved at the page talk and user talk level, in my opinion. The AfDs are underway. If dispute resolution is needed, fine. Nobody is harming S-Aura. S-Aura can't come crying to ANI (or four random user talk pages like mine) anytime someone merely disagrees with them. ] (]) 14:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::I'd have said close with trout for all if not for creating the second thread at AN/I. Based on that I'd say the OP should be formally cautioned against such antics in the future. ] (]) 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::I should have added that I largely hold with Remsense in their position. ] (]) 14:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::] is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages, but we don’t have any evidence because understanding Misplaced Pages’s AfD process so quickly can be a bit challenging. I have no problem with AfD regarding my contributions, and it’s a good thing that experienced contributors are giving their feedback. If you believe that the kriji is 100% correct and her activity is not suspicious, then this discussion should be closed. ]] 14:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::You need to stop insisting this is definitely the case if you don't have any evidence for it, period. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 14:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::S-Aura, how did you make the determination {{tq|User:Kriji Sehamati‬ is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages}}? Please share your process. That's a personal attack, and requires proof to prevent you from being in violation of ]. I've looked at the AfDs and they seem reasonable to me. When you've provided strong sources the article is being kept. So far the jury is out on the others. Both of you seem to be writing articles about obscure living persons who wouldn't normally (by my cursory reading) have a Misplaced Pages article about them because reliable sourcing is not readily found. When I see that, I must suspect COI or undeclared unpaid editing here, but nobody's admitting to it. ] (]) 15:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::S-Aura's continuing to issue personal attacks makes it more difficult for us to just close this (without some form of consequence for the editor making unproven personal attacks after they've been warned repeatedly). ] (]) 15:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::I have made a level-four user talk page warning for the personal attack. FYI. We've been very nice about this up 'til now, but we need to stop being so kind. Doing foolish things has real world consequences. ] (]) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			* Both editors' apparent use of AI is certainly disruptive. If it continues, it should lead to blocks. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 15:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:No personal hate intended, but I just found this and thought it would be worth checking. ]] 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::It would be nice if you could explain the significance for those who do not speak Hausa. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::She had made contributions to pages in other languages a few months ago. I am attaching her contributions link. ]] 16:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::How does this constitute evidence of sockpuppetry if we aren't to know what exactly happened? There's a reason we don't just automatically block anybody who is blocked on another language wiki, and I looked through the edits some and didn't find anything outrageous that made it past the language barrier. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::I agree that it’s important to ensure we have solid evidence before making conclusions. I appreciate your perspective on not automatically blocking users based on blocks from other language wikis. ]] 17:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::Please don't reply to me or others using ChatGPT. It is flat-out rude. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Support BOOMERANG''' - I've been uninvoled and have mainly just been watching the back-and-forths, but the personal attacks and ] mindset, such as "questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors", concerns me. Not sure for how long, but I don't think anything longer than a months is appropriate given the circumstances. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 15:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			== Darkwarriorblake making aspersions ==
	::Thank you. I'll post this request on ] too. ] 02:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{atop|result=The OP says they don't care any more which I'm reading as a withdrawal and the other party says they won't be responding again so I'm closing this discussion. My only comment is that both editors in this dispute should have brought this to the article talk page to talk this disagreement out. I don't know if the differences would be resolved but this is what we advise editors to do when their edits are reverted. Now I just have to get that scene in the movie out of my mind. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			Postscript: Ah, someone just close this, I don't care any more. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 22:56, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			----
			I'm posting here after a particularly underwhelming interaction with an editor in the form of edit summaries. I'll need to provide the context of a brief content dispute which hopefully won't take too long and then get to the point. I'm not asking for anyone to take my side in the dispute.
			'']'' is a widely acclaimed comedy film from 1983, which is also widely acknowledged to have problematic elements by modern standards, including a scene in which the villain of the piece, stuck in a gorilla costume, is locked in a cage with a real gorilla, which is implied to sexually penetrate him without his consent.
	: A new user ] is now blanking the article. In addition, take a look at bottom of ElKevbo Talk Page - note the personal attacks by an annonymous user - more than likely ] or ]? ] 18:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	::{{user|ElKevbo}} is hardly a "new user". ] 16:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			The article states that ] demurred being cast in the role upon finding that out. for this claim is a ] on ], which contains the sentence
	:I have blocked ] for 24 hours for a 3RR violation on this article, but it seems that other editors are also editing in an unproductive way. ] has asked for an unblock. I invite review of thsi block, note the report on ]. ] ] 19:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			: ''Reportedly, Liddy was on board until he got to the part where Beeks .''
	::It appears that Shac1 has evaded his/her block as {{user|ShacOne}}. ] 16:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			Reportedly ''by whom'' is not mentioned, let alone is there a direct quotation from Liddy. Plus as can be seen the words "becomes a gorilla's mate" are linked to a very poor quality, hand-held video of the scene in question playing on a television. This alone should be enough to raise serious questions about the use of this "source" in a featured article.
	:::As I have posted elsewhere, i don't think that ShacOne is a puppet of Shac1. ShacOne '''deleted''' content that Shac1 have been '''reinserting''' as part of his 3RR violation. However, i do rather suspect that {{user|Arla364}} '''is''' a puppet of Shac1. Anothe admin has blocked {{user|ShacOne}}. This is gettign messy. ] ] 18:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
			The content dispute began when I changed it like this () with the comment ''Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs'':
	== George Galloway ==
			{{text diff|Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla.|Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks is raped by a gorilla.}}
			This was reverted () by {{u|Darkwarriorblake}} with the comment ''not what the source says''.
	:''Link: ]''
	The above article has been fully protected (by myself) since 22nd February 2007. The dispute revolves around a section about charges of anti-Zionism, Galloway's criticism of Israel, etc - a section which I removed from the article after protection, hoping that it would faciliate better communication on the talkpage. Quite apart from ], Galloway is, as one editor puts it, 'notoriously litigatious', and there's a fairly real chance for the subject to bring charges against Misplaced Pages.
			After thinking about it a moment I came to the conclusion described above about the quality of the source, and decided that it was better out than in, which is what I should have done in the first place.()
	All unofficial attempts at mediation have been roundly rejected due in part to the nature of the above noted accusation, and in part due to an unwillingness to compromise. Possible violations of policy may be
	* The use of ]
	*The use of suggestive and possibly ]
	*The inclusion of possibly out-of-context material to further a particular ].
			{{text diff|...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks. Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla. Paul Gleason took the role;...|...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks with Paul Gleason eventually taking the role;...}}
	This is a request for an impartial admin or experienced user to take part in the ongoing debate, and attempt to cool the flames, because an editor has asked me for help and I'm, quite frankly, out of my depth. The page has been locked for far too long, and consensus is nowhere in sight, mainly due to the fact that it's the same editors spinning out the same arguments. An editor new to the page and not party to the prior debates with little progress. Some fresh insight into the matter would be great. After that the next step will have to be mediation (which has been rejected by some of the users), or an RfC.
			My accompanying comment was ''(a) That was the source's voice, not Liddy's. It's called a euphemism. Demonstrable by how it links to a clip of the scene in which a man is raped by a gorilla. (b) Source says "reportedly" for this claim, without evidence. Poor quality source. Removing claim''
	Thanks, &ndash; <span style="font-family:trebuchet ms">] <sup>]</sup></span> (with help from ]) 08:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			That was reverted by Darkwarriorblake () with the comment ''Nothing wrong with Indiewire as a source, if there is I'd raise it at ]. Until then, there's a talk page for you to use per ]. Your comments sound agenda driven and therefore not Neutral.''
	:I'll take a look. It seems to be an unfortunate rule that Religion+Misplaced Pages=really, really sucky articles. Grr. ] <sup> ]</sup> 08:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Actually, you'll have to rule me out of this one. I'm come across one of the main editors involved in this before: we spent a couple merry hours revert-warring. The person he was revert-warring on behalf of quickly turned out to be a sockpuppeting troll who quickly got permabanned, and the page stayed at the Right BLP-compliant Version. Hence, I don't think he'll be very pleased to see me after our last encounter, or at least not on something as contentious as this. ] <sup> ]</sup> 08:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::I will try to take a look. ] 08:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			This is where the reason for me to raise this at this board begins, because that's solidly an example of ]. It came on top of a revert which reintroduced a claim cited to a rumor in a blog post into a featured article, but that's really not my concern, because if the champions of the featured article process have decided that it's somehow acceptable for our "best" content then I'm just going to move on to something else rather than argue.
	::::I think the issue is not whether George Galloway is anti-zionist (because he is openly supportive of Palestinians) but whether he is anti-semitic. This is quite a different issue and needs to be handled extremely sensitively, even if the subject were not inclined to take legal action we have a duty to be fair. ] 09:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			There's one final back and forth which was enough to motivate me to post here. First, I reverted that revert (, my only time using the actual "Undo" button today), with this comment: ''a good source doesn't say "reportedly" (ie, spread a rumor), it specifies the origin of a fact. My only "agenda" is with a crap listicle being used as a reference, regardless of who published it. Take it to talk if you want to argue for the continued inclusion of a trash ref in a featured article, or source the claim properly yourself''.
	:Controversial people who litigate easily have plenty of unsuitable sources, but not many usable sources. Some editors want wikipedia to "expose" "The Truth". Newbie editors can get frustrated that Verifiability and BLP and NOR mean that they cannot say some things which appear obvious. It's not just religion, look at alternative medicine etc etc. Are there any projects that help people maintain calm? ] 11:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			This was reverted - again - by Darkwarriorblake () with the comment '' How are you an admin? "rape played for laughs" is an agenda, this went through FA as is so ] and ] apply. You must go to the talk page, not I. I don't know if you're going through a bad time or something but this isn't how an admin should be acting or communicating with others, up to and including ]''
	Wow, you've just eloquently said something I've been trying to figure out how to express into words for over a year now. '''Controversial people who litigate easily have plenty of unsuitable sources, but not many usable sources. Some editors want wikipedia to "expose" "The Truth". Newbie editors can get frustrated that Verifiability and BLP and NOR mean that they cannot say some things which appear obvious.'''. That should be policy or something. Thanks for brightening my day Dan Beale! ] ] ] 18:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			At this point it's gone firmly into the realm of knee-jerk reversions, because if Darkwarriorblake took the time to read the article which they've (is this ]? Kind of feels that way), they would get down to the ] section. Which says "some critics have praised the film while highlighting elements that they believe aged poorly, including racial language, the use of blackface, and the implied rape of Beeks by a gorilla", cited to articles in four major publications. Or, you know, even .
	The passage has gone through numerous revisions already. All arguments were considered. I will go step by step.
	*"The use of ]"
	**All sources that say what Galloway has said are perfectly reliable, and there are several of them. Furthermore, a video of the interview is available online. The criticism of Galloway's comment appears either on news sites or the official websites of the critics.
	*"The use of suggestive and possibly ]"
	**This has already been taken care of during revisions. The passage either writes Galloway's words verbatim, or the new sources's words verbatim.
	*"The inclusion of possibly out-of-context material to further a particular ]."
	**Every single statement relates. Every single one. --] 20:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			So anyhow regardless of whether the Indiewire source is deemed suitable or not, I'm just wondering what the feeling here is about someone making goofy assertions on the record that another editor has "an agenda" (what agenda could it be?) and may not be emotionally stable, which really doesn't feel like ] at all. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 20:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
	Riana, you wrote, "in part due to an unwillingness to compromise. Possible violations of policy may be..." You are mostly correct. I have been active in the discussion, listening to others, while they all smeared me as "biased" without telling me what is wrong with the passage. I continuously asked for compromise and never stopped asking what should be done before requesting mediation. They did not reply politely and rejected any mediation, although I myself had nothing to fear in it.
			:Hrrm, this seems a bit excessive.
			:*I've added a second source for the claim. Really this should've been the first option rather than removing the content.
			:*The first summary was, as stated, "Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs". "Rape played for laughs" is a loaded comment and not something said in the article or the source text, so it's a personal opinion, it's not neutral, it's agenda-driven.
			:*When this was reverted, the editor just removed the content entirely claiming IndieWire was unreliable. There is, as far as I'm aware, nothing wrong with Indiewire. I've since found a second source, the Telegraph, which is reliable per ].
			:*The editor ignored WP: BRD when raised, and as an admin they should adhere to policy.
			:*The editor states that they are an admin on their page. Assuming this is true, the aggressiveness of their edits, hyper focus on the single area, and use of words like "crap listicle" seemed out of line with what I, personally, would expect from an admin on Misplaced Pages, certainly someone who has been so for nearly two decades. Perhaps the edit summary wasn't the place to have that discussion but, as stated, they weren't adhering to WP: BRD to start a discussion, and in the interim the article needed putting back to the status quo.
			:*I find accusations of OWNERSHIP often tend to come when people don't get their way. Which is fine. I have plenty of reversions on the page for people adding unsourced content and there are plenty of changes as well. I find someone removing sourced content and me putting the sourced content back to not ''really'' be something you can fling ownership at.
			:*Within the context of the film, Beeks does become the romantic partner of the gorilla, it seemed more appropriate and encylcopedic text than just saying 'rape', and neither source I've added says that either.
			:*Anyways, my edit history shows I'm a massive contributor and helper and it's nearly Xmas, and I don't feel like engaging with this any further, good luck Hex. ] (]) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Of course you don't, having ignored the actual matter of your conduct that I'm raising here. Your comments about the content of the article are irrelevant. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 20:43, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			*Hex's position is not wholly supported, although in the entire issue, their toolset is irrelevant. There was no incivility on either part, and an all-out edit war seems to have been averted.{{pb}}Fundamentally the change Hex wanted to make was pure OR; rape may have been intimated—or, as Hex themself admits, implied—but its never overtly stated and is a wholly loaded term. This is the interpretation of an editor, not of secondary sources. If there is a pron=blem with Indywire as a source—currently used in —take it to WP:RSN. If it's disputed that it's a high quality source per WP:FA?, then take it to WT:FAC. Accusations of OWNership are as unhelpful—and as much an aspersion—as accusations of agenda-led editing. In fact, for OWNership, Hex should read the relevant policy: here, it is WP:FAOWN, which not only allows for careful stewardship of featured material, but requires significant changes to the consensus version to be discussed on talk; I don't suppose there's any suggestion that introducing rape—particularly "played for laughs"—wouldn't be a significant addition.{{pb}}Really though, this is an overblown content dispute which should have started with ''one revert'' each, and ended on the talk page. --]'']''] 21:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:"Never overtly stated... 'played for laughs' be a significant addition" - with John Landis, the director. {{talk quote|One of the executives was deeply appalled by a man being sexually molested by a gorilla. And I said you know, it's a joke and it goes by very quickly. But the first preview was very successful and it all went away. ''''}}
			*:Feel free to amend the article on that basis. I'm certainly not interested in spending any more time on it. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 22:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			===Followup===
	Riana, most editors hardly stated any violation of policy. They simply said why they dont agree with the criticism. They said "my" sources are "driven by the agenda of demonizing critics of Israeli policy like Galloway," a smear which he has no basis for, to which I replied, "Who do you expect to criticize it? The Sierra Club? A women's rights organization?" In actuality, members of Engage are harshly critical of Israeli policy themselves. Most, if not all, of Galloway's cited comments are not critical of Israeli policies but rather of Israel. This editor further talks about Jewish critics of Israel, trying to argue why he believes the criticism is wrong rather than arguing for any WP policy. Many of them jumped to conclusions, saying that the sources labeled him an antisemite, which not a single one of them did.
			I just want to say that, now that we've had an ANI thread on the subjeect of Gordon Liddy's feelings about portraying the romantic partner of a gorilla, I can die happy.
			While we're on the subject, recites that {{tq|Prior to his departure from the FBI in 1962, Liddy sought admission to various bars.}} I'm curious to know whether this is meant to imply that Liddy had a , and whether this could have had any bearing on the whole gorilla romantic partner situation. ]]
	As for any "violations" of policy, this is what ] had to say: "'South African white citizens are settler in African lands' . U define the term to fit the people. U have such a narrow definition that if i said 'jews own Hollywood' i am antisemitic. Jews were part of the slave trade. Israel is a neocolonial state. Jews control the central lobbying powers in America. Now if i said this about another group it isnt necessarly racism. White people control America. Isnt racist."
			{{abot}}
			== Extremely Annoying situation ==
	I was being attacked by numerous editors, by people who refused to even discuss it or have a mediation. I could not believe the comments by Halaqah who just began an attack campaign using some of the most irrelevant and disproven myths (slave trade) about Jews in the discussion, hardly even mentioning Galloway. This is of course the same pattern of just saying why they think the criticism is wrong, without saying why it is worthy of mention. I repeat that I still asked for mediation, even from these people, but they would not participate. I was talking to a wall until ] came along. Finally someone who did not attack me or the criticisms. We did not always agree, but we often did and we certainly moved along more in those 1-2 days than in the weeks with the other editors. I wouldnt say this last passage is in need of any more heavy-duty revision. --] 20:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			{{atop
			| result = Blocked for one week. ] (]/]) 01:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			}}
			I reverted by ]. They then times for it. One of these was for "being shovel shenanigans" which I took as a ] and informed them of it.
	:Shamir1, it was actually me who wrote the part about an ''"unwillingness to compromise"'', and I feel it applies to all parties involved. I appreciate that you feel as though you were attacked for putting what you clearly see as noteworthy and legit info into an article, and I agree that some of the other editors were less than cordial with you, but you must have been aware that this info would stir up heated opinions, right? I am glad that we were able to perhaps at least get the compromise ball rolling together, but I would strongly disagree with your assertion that no more "heavy-duty revision" is needed. On the contrary, I came to Riana for help in part because I believe a revision, mediated and furthered by an objective party(s), is the only solution that resembles any form of compromise here- something that has yet to be accomplished.--] 22:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			The rest escapes words for me. See these discussions.
	::Of course it has yet to be accomplished. Both times I requested mediation other editors rejected. --] 00:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			]
	:::I'm not sure quite how a request for mediation works, but if you like I will try to contact other involved editors and get them to participate in the discussion here.--] 01:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			] ]
	::::The ridiculuous "anti-semitism" section that User:Shamir1 is desperate to get back into the article is one that I oppose absolutely, cheifly, as I and others have stated before it is an egregious violation of BLP (and, as I've said before as well, Galloway is famously litiginous). It also fails notability (why are the musings of Engage or a single obscure resolution by the NUS executive encyclopedic?), and appears to have been orginally included to smear Galloway. Mediation will not change either of these points.<span style="font: small-caps 14px times;"><b>] <sup>]</sup></b></span> 07:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			they also used a ] to continue to irk me. I hesitated to bring this to ANI, since they seemed new, and I didn't want to bite, but enough is enough.
	== ] and ] Trolling ] ==
			] (]) 00:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	This is unbelievable, that ] is doing this again (reference no. 62 on this board, re: Mukhtar Mai deletions. ] is trolling ] to try to provoke a fight, after I had a dispute with some men and he blocked me.
			{{abot}}
			== IP vandalism ==
	Considering his inordinate pursual of the page created by me in my professional scope,] is considered to be a troll on this board, pursuing a vendetta. This was already reported to the Business and Economics Wikiproject board. The Business and Economics Wikiproject board invited ISTIA as a Wikiproject, after which I joined them as a member. In other words, I am not the person that made it a wikiproject. Other experts did. ISTIA is a specialized international agency which is funded by, and works with, governments particularly to help poor governments. It is also a world competence center for globalization data and globalization data capacity building.
			{{atop
			| result = Blocked. {{nac}} <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 03:53, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	Unless ] has sufficient experience with economics, trade policy and international statistics to debate the entry of this board with Wikiproject he is invited to leave this board alone. Thanks in advance. ] 13:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
			}}
	] is also trolling. He is is pursuing a vendetta for a disagreement over another page. ] is invited to discuss this page with the Business and Economics Wikiproject, which invited ISTIA to be one of their projects. If TheBehnam wants to have an offline discussion about why ISTIA is an important source of information for globalization data (which is why it is listed on the UN Development Gateway capacity building webpage as a partner, why it is a partner to the OECD, and to see the list of governments supporting ISTIA, he is invited to contact me offline. Thank you. ] 13:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	] 13:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Istia, you have ''not'' been blocked as you claim. If you had been blocked you would not be able to post here. Please understand that Misplaced Pages does not allow people involved in organizations to write articles about those organizations. Please read our ]. Rash accusations of trolling and bad faith against long standing members of the Misplaced Pages community do not help your case. ] 13:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	::This is ludicrous. ] did not post this, . Note that ] has already posted this ], and ] clearly identifies herself as "Ms. Jennifer Marie POWELL". <font face="Verdana">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 13:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	This may be useful to people reviewing this situation. ] 13:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:She also continues to use her sock, Istia, to remove maintenance and 'prod' tag from her own organization's article. ] 13:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	*Let's see if I can sort this out... {{user|Jenniferpowell}} had 2 accounts and posted this from JP, but signed it {{user|Istia}} which is her other account. Confusing, but not a big deal. Jennifer Powell's eponymous account was blocked for personal attacks and then the block was extended when she continued to edit around it from an IP. So what exactly is the problem being asserted in the original post? {{user|Irishguy}} has almost no edits in regards to the ] beyond the fact that he PROD'd it which has now been changed to an AfD. He content from ], which has been removed by several editors and keeps being added back by Ms. Powell. He also unprotected Powell's talkpage . I don't see any evidence of "trolling" by {{user|Irishguy}}. Nothing to see here; move along.--] 15:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:* Not ''nothing'', there is a pressing problem with {{user|Jenniferpowell}} / {{user|Istia}} in that the user was editing using another account and an IP_ to get around a block; the editor is also taking ''very'' personally the debate over inclusion of her organisation, which she freely admits is very new and has no real independent sources. So somebody needs to go over there and wield the iron hand in the velvet glove. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 15:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	::*I meant in regards to the claim that Irishguy had somehow acted inappropriately. The issues you bring up JzG are a whole different can of worms I'm just starting to look into.--] 15:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	Its also worth noting that both accounts have been edit warring on the ] article in violation of ]. I blocked ] for 3 hours for canvassing for support for the AfD after being politely warned not to. This user clearly misunderstands the core mision of Misplaced Pages and its policies despite extended efforts by many editors to help her. She has also resorted to some borderline ]. ] 15:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Now she is promising meatpuppetry . ] 16:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	: is english her second language? She seems to struggle to follow basic conversations which makes me think this might be the case. In addition, shouldn't we block one of her accounts? as she's currently repeating content between the two. --] 17:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Yes of course her sock should be blocked. And she is still continuing with personal attacks . Most of the people who get indef'd at AIV haven't been this disruptive; I have no idea why her behavior has been tolerated as much as it has. ] 18:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	29 November 2005 ] edited ] which is an article that ] had edited earlier. 16 February 2006 Get-back-world-respect stopped editing and demanded that his/her pages be blanked...behavior that JenniferPowell later does when she gets blocked. On 17 February 2007, one day later, Istia recreated Get-back-world-respect's user page with an advertisement for her company (which I deleted so you can't see it). I believe she has been using numerous names and will continue to do so. In fact, on the 9th ] was created. This was done while she was still blocked. <font color="Green">]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">]</font></sup> 18:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	Can someone keep an eye on the AFD - she is just dropping massives of stuff in all over the place - wreaking the formating and the flow. --] 19:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	account - not used yet, but needs blocking. --] 20:34, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:: If is not a sock account, I'll eat my hat. --] 08:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Add to the endless list of sockpuppets of Jenniferpowell/Istia ... --] 13:39, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Add yet another sock: , with attempts to spam huge number of talk pages with call to action (vote in afd). Shouldn't this result in an indefblock? --] 13:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::And another sock: ]. --] 13:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	===List of (suspected) socks of Istia===
	*{{user|Jenniferpowell}}
	*{{user|Jennifermpowell}}
	*{{user|Appelsinsaft}}
	*{{User|Angelfire2222}}
	*{{User|JoergW}}
	*{{User|Michaela1970}}
	*{{User|MarkusJens}}
	I request blocking of all but one of the sock accounts. --] 17:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	More sockpuppets:
	*{{user|Socky_p}} . Has identified herself as Jennifer Powell. I've blocked the account indefinitely. --] 21:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	===Rampant sockpuppetry===
	I have already linked at least 7 socks of the ] above. She has that she has and will create more sockpuppets to evade any blocks. I think she has by now exhausted everyone's patience, and an indef block on all sock accounts is in order. --] 21:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	On a lighter note, the user name of the latest sock is {{user|socky p}}!!! --] 21:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:: I frankly find this all very bizzare, she's a self-identified professional figure working at what appears to be a high level (I say "appears" as titles can be misleading), she's been involved in spamming (after she's been told to stop, she even say herself admits to spamming), she's used multiple sockpuppets and she attacks the personal motivations of editors in a fashion that would make me think she was 15 not a serious professional figure, is a good example of her a) spamming b) using a sockpuppet and c) attacking other edits. The only semi-logical scenario I can think of is that this is a "false flag" op and someone with a grudge is doing this to discredit her. I find this all very odd. --] 23:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	Now attacking the AFD with IP address - beyond bizzare. --] 23:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	Now claiming "right to disappear" allows her to remove comments from others - I don't know very much about the ins and out of that policy and admin intervention is requested. --] 23:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	Amazing indeed, from the purported executive director of an International agency!! To summarize her actions:
	*Repeated racist personal attacks against other users
	*Advertisement / promotion of her own organization in violation of ]
	*Rampant sockpuppetry (as shown above)
	*Blanking/vandalism
	*AFD disruption by using the socks to post long monologues
	*AFD canvassing
	--] 23:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	Perhaps an urgent community ban is needed to handle her. Shorter blocks on various socks have not succeeded in making her refrain from creating newer socks and repeating the same again. --] 23:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:: I have created a page where I will comply a case for a community ban, I will then copy it to the relevent community ban page and blank the page. Anyone wishing to add evidence (and there is a lot of it!), can do so there. --] 23:31, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	Add to this:
	* via anon ip. --] 23:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	Community ban proposal --] 01:10, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	Can someone step in with a temporary block while we discuss the community ban is just getting plain silly. --] 02:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:You all need to take time out. She is a stressed and very bitten newbie. ] 02:21, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::From what I've seen, it looks like most of the "biting" is coming from her side. Yes, we ''do'' try to be gentle and tolerant of mistakes with newer editors, but there does come a point at which we have to say "You're apparently not going to stop this despite being advised to do so repeatedly, and enough is enough." ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 02:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:: actually looking into the history, she's had accounts on and off since at least 2005 (with the history of socks and IP accounts, it's difficult to be spoton) - so I'm not sure "newbie" applies. --] 02:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:: You seem ''remarkably'' pleased to have got her to vanish though, and have taken ''such'' a dedicated interest. If I were her I'd feel harassed by you too. ] 15:57, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::: ::: Well good for you - if I was that bothered I would have reported the 15 or so personal attacks that she's made today (against various editors) from the IP accounts that she is using to avoid her block, or I could have just reported the IP socks and got her banned that way. After sleeping on the matter, I think that maybe a approach might be a better way to approach it, after nobody stepped up to the plate, I made an offer (on her her now deleted original user account) to help her get her name removed, if you would stop attacking the AFD page. At this stage, I think she is incapable of thinking about this in a rational manner, she too worked up, she's been editing under multiple account for about ''four'' days solid and shows no signs of stopping. If you think some action needs to be taken against me, you start the process, but I don't see a single edit by me that is again wikipedia policy or process. In addition, it's not like this is a vs. situation, ''mutliple'' editors and admin have been dragged into this and either warned her off or had to block any number of her various accounts or have been attacked by her. She's operated about 10 sock or ip account and made ''at least'' 50 personal attacks in the last four days. That's in regards to that single article and not even getting into the racist abuse she gave another editor on an entirely separate matter but in a parallel timeframe. So no, sorry, I'm not going to be the scapegoat or the badguy here. --] 16:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Darin Fidika has returned as Tathagata Buddha ==
	*{{userlinks|Tathagata Buddha}}
	*{{userlinks|Darin Fidika}}
	'''Darin Fidika''' was blocked indefinitely due to repeated blatant copyright violations (see ]), and is now back under '''Tathagata Buddha'''. As I have already been involved in previous incidents with this user, I'd like someone else to look at it and make the determination on whether or not to block the new account. I found out about it by stumbling across his ]. Thanks! ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]</small></sup> 22:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Is anyone willing to look at this one? I appreciate any help. Thanks. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]</small></sup> 15:13, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Oy. I see there are a lot of contributions from the new account. Are there any copyright violations? ]]<sup>]</sup> 20:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::I'm not sure, as the articles are in an area of expertise that does not overlap any I have. The basic format of the articles is very similar, though, and the wording is as wonderful as ever. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]</small></sup> 05:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Sockpuppet of ]: ] (repost) ==
	{{vandal|Ranapanna}} is a likely sockpuppet of Danny Daniel, as the user recreated (more specifically added info very similar) an created by ] (] was thought as an open proxy for the user and is also an IP sockpuppet of indefinitely blocked user Danny Daniel). See ] for more information). The user also ] (an article that Danny Daniel's sockpuppets seem to vandalise often) adding misinformation similar to to that of confirmed socks. , . Not only that, the user edited ] and ], which are both related to '']'' (much of the confirmed socks edit pages related to it).
	Note that I in late March. ] 02:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
	:This user still hasn't been blocked, yet ].] 19:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I've reposted this because no one has blocked this vandal and sadly, he's still editing, continuing to add hoaxes and vandalism. I've notified this to ] and ] and they haven't done something about it. I originally reported the user about five days ago. ] 23:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Why is it taking so long for someone to respond anyways? It's similar to what happened last time I tried to report a sockpuppet of Danny Daniel. The only reason Choolabuulba got blocked anyways is that I notified Irishguy about it after he responded to my report. That involved ]. It's almost been a week since I originally posted this. ] 23:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Refusal to allow use of age-at-death template ==
	Single user, ] to allow use of {{tl|death date and age}} on ], despite no support for his position on ], or in ]. Discussion has included repeated allusions to supposed collusion (even after apology for same) and exhortation to "buzz off". ] 23:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	:No admin intervention is needed. This is primaraly a content dispute, but concensus seems on your side. Please try to resolve this with ] on the talk page. Also, as a courtesy, please inform users that they are a subject on ] or ]. --] <small>(])</small> 00:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::I've tried that, and got the responses described, that's why I came here. ] 00:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::I've left a note on the article's talk page, that's all I can do. I'll leave it up to you how to interpret the current consensus. --] <small>(])</small> 00:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::No courtesy was extended, however the content dispute has been resolved. ] 18:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Legal threats from ] ==
	I request an administrator look into this ].--] 23:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
	*Specifically, with regard to ] (<span class="plainlinks">] • ] • • ] • {{rfcu|1={{ucfirst:{{{User|COFS}}}}}|2=&#32;• rfcu|cond=n}}</span>) -- , , , .
	More discussion and response from previously un-involved editor, at ]. ] 03:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC).
	I suggest that the several issues raised (see below) that involve Fahrenheit451 be pulled together into one incident with subsections. See also ] ++]: ]/] 04:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	==== Same warning 4 times = ? ====
	The suggestion that trouble could result from one's actions is either meant as a genuine warning or an attempt to intimidate the person being warned.
	:
	] could very well be right, but unless he/she mentions some specifics they could also just be raising the idea to discourage content he/she doesn't "like". The first mention of the warning and the first reiteration could be forgiven for not providing specifics. By the third or fourth they should have realized the warning was not being heeded with the information provided.
	* Warning
	* Reiteration of warning without specifics of "I've seen people getting in trouble " aspect of warning.
	* Further reiteration of warning w/o specifics.
	* Third reiteration of warning, essentially ] is saying "Negative consequences will follow if you don't listen to my warning, I've seen it happen." but isn't saying what happened, when this was, who was involved, etc.
	:
	I think the line between helpful warning and ambigous legal threats is crossed by repeating a threat of legal "harm" from unknown parties without an attempt to explain one's concerns. This is especially true when the editor issuing the warning is asked for but does not give said specifics. (Those being items like court cases, diffs from here, or anything showing people getting into trouble as described by ] in his/her warning.) ] 06:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	===] is editing my user page===
	I think this user is being disruptive. Please see .--] 03:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I think he should have asked you first, but I don't see anything particularly wrong with what he did. Maybe you could make a user subpage for that discussion in order to keep his fingerprints off your primary user page. ] 03:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	*You may not be aware of the history of this disruptive user, ] (<span class="plainlinks">] • ] • • ] • {{rfcu|1={{ucfirst:{{{User|COFS}}}}}|2=&#32;• rfcu|cond=n}}</span>), see also subsection above, ]. ] 04:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC).
	=== User Fahrenheit451, several WP:NPA violations, WP:NAM and other WP:PG violations ===
	This is a Scientology story. ] started putting copyrighted material up in articles. I alerted him that this might exceed fair use which brought him (Fahrenheit451) and ] to attack me broadly. It ended with the fact that heated accusations flew around and I got very personal attacks and "questions" which were supposed to introvert me and get me out of Misplaced Pages. I decided not to respond to Fahrenheit451's accusations anymore while on "Smee", well she has a long story of why she does what she does (she tries since about a week to trick me in 3RR and other such incidents, sometimes unfortunately I notice too late). My proposal is to give out a warning to each party not to go in discussion at all anymore but concentrate on editing. This is what I am going to do at least. ] 04:05, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	*] (<span class="plainlinks">] • ] • • ] • {{rfcu|1={{ucfirst:{{{User|COFS}}}}}|2=&#32;• rfcu|cond=n}}</span>) has been warned multiple times on talk page for violating ], ], ], etc. See also subsections above on this page about this editor, ] and ]. This disruptive and offensive troubling pattern must stop. ] 04:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC).
	COFS, you are accusing us of the things you have done yourself. As for the questions I asked that you did not like, on both your user page and talk page you post a message that you are a scientologist and "Feel free to ask questions." I did and you got rattled. Then you vandalized my user page.--] 04:12, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:You are tweaking the truth in your direction, once again, and I am not willing to discuss anything further with you. Your "questions", easy to see, were hidden insult. It is sick that this ended up on this board at all. ] 04:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::I am presenting the facts and if you are not willing to discuss edits with me, then I see just future conflict. That is not good. Whatever "hidden insult" you see in my questions is your own view.--] 16:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Respectfully, ] you have made several mistakes in this notice. The first is you haven't included any evidence (diffs or links) to:
	# The copyrighted material which ws the origin of your dispute.
	# The "broad attacks" against you.
	# The introverted questions designed to get you off Misplaced Pages.
	# The accusations from ] you refuse to answer.
	::The second is ] is neither policy nor guideline, it's an essay.
	::The third is a violation of ] has to be specified (like ]).
	::I am curious to know what ] asked you, so could either of you provide a diff for it?
	::An admin will want proof, and isn't going to do the research for you because this board is very busy as you can no doubt see. ] 05:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Thanks for the hint. My time is up for now and will have to get back to it later. You can find the questions he asked on his user page and on his user talk page (if he did not delete them from there) . Note to anyone watching: I won't have much time to pursue this before Monday. If there is any Admin working on it, please let me know what you need to follow up on the "discussion", thank you. ] 16:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	=== Background and diffs ===
	'''Comment''': Actually, Justanother has mixed his opinions in and called them "facts".--] 16:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I am comfortable with neutral admins/editors evaluating the veracity of my remarks. ps, please do not cut your comments into the body of mine - thanks. --] 16:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	Here are some background facts:
	# ] created ] article.
	# I (]) warned him that it likely exceeded ]. See ], 2nd post in thread. I added that policy says I should blank the page but I would wait and see if the issue was addressed.
	# F451 mis-stated that my following policy and blanking the page would be vandalism and a discussion of copyvio legal liability followed in the thread and the following thread ].
	# Rather than simply discuss the problem with the article and ways to improve it, ] and F451 started attacking ].
	# Smee canvasses for a block on COFS; see , , , , .
	# A number of the admins/editors that Smee canvassed stated they found no blockable offense (see ]) and at least one came down squarely with COFS .
	# Smee continues canvassing for a block on COFS here.
	This is what happens when, rather than improve articles, and discuss how to improve articles, and discuss differences of opinion; editors try to avoid that time-consuming and proper process with the tactic of getting their opponents in trouble. Can we just give that a rest, please? It is tired. And in actual fact, the continued use of that tactic is disruptive and grounds for User RfC/ArbCom if the "victim" cares to pursue it. --] 15:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:It looks a bit like a witch hunt but I have my share in reacting to provocations. In summary I spent half my time with "postings" rather than "edits" and this was wrong. Thanks for the reality adjustment, I'll heed it. ] 16:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::And I hope that F451 knocks it off as well, e.g. . ] 16:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Response to 2. '''Comment''':Except that there is no evidence that fair use was violated in that article. That is your view, which seems to be parochial.--] 16:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Response to 3. '''Comment''':And the discussion was the proper course of action.--] 16:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Request block of block-evading user User:Alx 91 ==
	{{Userlinks|Alx 91}} was blocked 04:26, 8 April 2007 for persistent issues with images after a where I presented several offending diffs and requests to stop. At ~19:00 2007-04-12, Alx 91 uploaded ] () and then, in two diffs, to Template:Musicpromo-screenshot. The user was blocked for, among other things, repeatedly changing image copyright tags despite multiple requests to stop (some diffs are scattered across Alx 91's talk page). As an anonymous user, {{userlinks|189.157.64.1}}, Alx 91 has
	. Please block 189.157.64.1. --] 04:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	: Anyone willing to at least respond? --] 19:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::I will warn the user and keep an eye on them. Cheers, ]<sup>'']</sup> 19:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Iamunknown, that user's last edit was many hours ago. I see that you posted a warning to ]'s talk page. If we assume good faith then the anon IP may not be Alx, and you never warned the IP directly. Blocking isn't the way to go right now unless the IP returns and continues with the same pattern of edits in spite of the warning. Sorry it took so long for an admin to get on this for you. ]<sup>'']</sup> 19:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Superdeterminism and Archimedes Plutonium ==
	I'd appreciate very much if some administrators could take a look at the article ] and the behaviour of {{User|Superdeterminism}}. I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I can't research the details, but I think that a few months ago some user vandalised the ] article, inserting into it a request to have the Archimedes Plutonium article deleted (or perhaps corrected &mdash; I can't remember). If it had been a request made on Jimbo's talk page, I wouldn't have done anything, but it was a whole pile of irrelevant text inserted into an article about Jimbo, so I reverted. This user came to my talk page to complain, and I told him that he shouldn't have made his request in the text of an article, and told him where to go. (He was claiming to be Archimedes Plutonium himself.) He went there, and I ''think'' someone rolled him back. Anyway, I think he repeatedly vandalised articles by inserting something like "Please deleted the Archimedes Plutonium article" into them. There was an AfD, and I think I voted to delete. I generally feel that articles about living people should be deleted if the subject is not clearly notable, and if the article's existence is causing distress to the subject. (Obviously, if the subject ''is'' notable, the article stays.)
	I wasn't heavily involved in this, but kept the article on my watchlist. Yesterday, I saw , and reverted it as vandalism. I don't think the editor in question has the same username as the one I originally encountered, but I'm sure it's the same person. Once again, it's someone claiming to be Archimedes Plutonium. I reverted, as I saw the edit as vandalism. He then did , which I once again reverted as vandalism. (It also looked ''very'' much like a legal threat.)
	When I got up this morning, I saw . I had been thinking about the situation in the meantime, and had seen (and fully agreed with) a post from Jkelly, on a different issue, saying that "If someone removes a BLP violation inelegantly . . . the proper response is to help them out . . . Calling their edit 'vandalism', or reverting them, is just going to escalate the situation." I thought I'd have a look to see what this guy's problem is, and then maybe try to correct the problem ''while'' undoing his vandalism, so as to keep him happy and also have an article that didn't damage the appearance of the encyclopaedia. (Obviously, leaving a mainspace article with a whole pile of text about how "Misplaced Pages is going to be meeting my lawyer" would not be appropriate.) Before I could do that, someone else had reverted.
	I don't know who this Archimedes person is, and I don't know if this eccentric editor is the same person. I can't remember what the original editor I encountered was complaining about, exactly, though it was something to do with that article. This editor, who is presumably the same, seems to object to the (sourced) phrase "known as '''Arky''' by his fans". My internet access is going to be limited today, so I'd be happy if some administrators keep an eye on the situation. Thanks. ] ] 08:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	*{{user-full|Superdeterminism}} is the same editor as before, who to be ] himself, and is certainly editing in a style that is very similar to that of M. Plutonium, with the creation of articles such as ] and edits such as .<p>For the background to the dispute over nicknames, see ], where I and several editors gave an explanation about verifiability, about our desire to avoid having , and about how reliably sourced content is the antidote to such things. See also ] for some further background.<p>This editor has already made several on-wiki clear legal threats, such as (at the bottom), (where xe states that the legal threat will be lifted when the ability for people to edit Misplaced Pages is removed), and , and continues to do so . (There are also several off-wiki legal threats.) Xe some of xyr direct personal attacks, however.<p>I refrained from blocking xem for the legal threats during the AFD discussion period because I weighed the likelyhood of the threat (in light of the off-wiki discussion) against the benefit of having the article's subject involved for the entire period of the AFD discussion. I refrain from blocking xem ''now'' because I am one of the major contributors to the article. However, I ask that other uninvolved administrators take a look at the diffs above, ]'s other contributions to other articles, and the deleted articles, and consider whether allowing an editor either who is Archimedes Plutonium or who is precisely imitating Archimedes Plutonium (the end result being effectively the same as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned) to continue having editing privileges will be a net benefit to the encyclopaedia. ] 11:05, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:*ElinorD, may be what you're trying to recall. I believe these edits are from before ] created their account. I've also had an entry on this same topic for a while. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== My lunatic brother ==
	My younger brother's recently "discovered" the amusement of vandalising Misplaced Pages (he registered the account "Vandal100" which Ryulong blocked immediately). Someone may want to pay attention to anonymous edits coming from my IP, as anything which isn't constructive will ''certainly'' be him. ] - ] 08:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:We need to know the ip first, before someone blocks. --]<small><sup>]• ]</sup></small> 08:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Somewhat embarrassingly, I'm not even sure of my own IP address anymore. That said, the alert's off since he seems to have decided to do something else now. ] - ] 09:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::You can probably find your ip address quite easily by going into your internet connection settings, or any website made to display your ip. (Try Google.) - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::My favourite trick now: Log out and type ] into search. ] <small>]</small> 09:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::www.whatismyip.com --] 09:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::Or, you know, you could just log out, sign with four tildes and hit preview. That's what I do to find my IP. ]]] 09:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	(<---) My IP changes every time I relog in to my ISP. ] 10:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::Yes, it is a dynamic ip address, but the first and second groups of numbers do not change: a.b.x.y : all the numbers go from 0 to 255, "a" and "b" are costants, they do not change for a given area and subsequent set of users of that provider, the "x" and the "y" change each time. Some hackers can trick their provider and show a faked ip adress (maybe using open proxies, but I guess they have further methods).--] 12:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	Big Haz, if for some reason your account is caught up in a block, when you put the unblock notice, include a link to this post...it should clear things up really easily.] ] ] 23:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	== False accusation of stalking ==
	, with an unacceptable edit summary, in response to a complaint about an earlier unacceptable edit summary. There have been several other recent incidents involving this editor. ] 09:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Followed up with . ] 09:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Administrative action is unnecessary at this point. If both you and Captain scarlet make an honest attempt to defuse the situation by allowing for some time to soothe each others' temper, then this conflict might resolve amicably. ˉˉ<sup>]</sup>] 09:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Thank you, but previous experience is that both my and others' efforts to discuss issues rationally and calmly with the editor concerend fall on stony ground; hence my bringing the issue here. ] 10:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::: The place to go if dialog is failing is ]. --] 10:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::I didn't come here because ''dialog is failing'', I came here because of repeated acts of incivility. ] 13:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::I appreciate that you have run into some difficulty in communicating with this user, my point is that there's no dire need for administrative intervention. My advice is to give this dispute some time, and if you still feel aggrieved at a later point, attempt mediation through a different venue than AN/I. ˉˉ<sup>]</sup>] 10:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC) (e/c)
	:::::I left a message on his talk page so he'd be aware of this discussion. In it I mentioned that his choice of a couple of words could have been better, but otherwise what '''<FONT COLOR="#000000">]</FONT>''' ''<FONT COLOR="#FF0000">]</FONT>'' did looked like good editing. ] you may be taking his feedback too personally, and I think that's what <sup>]</sup>] is saying. ] 00:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::Of course I take false accusations that I'm a stalker and a troll - and that I'm ''owned'' - personally. Good grief! ] 01:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::Hey, what does that "''owned''" mean?--] 01:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::: See ], or better still, ] - ]<sup>]</sup> 01:15, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::::] has got to use these pages as his personnal chat room, it is getting tiresome. this is I think the third instance of Pigsonthewing wasting his time on these pages by referring me. Anyone cane accuse anyone of doing anything... Like making a ''False accusation of stalking'' apparently. should I take your accusation any harder than you took mine? Look at yourself in a mirror, you don't like me, and all this Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard fest won't make you any easier to work with. Damn, if I think you're stalking me, I'll tell you! thank goodness for contributions list or I owuldn't know of yet again more fun on these pages... Waste of your, my and other contributors' time Pigsonthewing. '''<FONT COLOR="#000000">]</FONT>''' ''<FONT COLOR="#FF0000">]</FONT>'' 08:15, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::::::Well, I can witness that his edits at the WikiProject Pink Floyd and related articles never bring to edit wars or other kind of disruptions or time wasting. ], why do you think he doesn't like you? Likely he just doesn't agree with some of your edits.] 10:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Equally, I'm not enrolled in feuds every five minutes, there seems to be a small group of people unwilling to accept comments outside of their clique (I await a referral for that comment, I'm sure it won't be appreciate for its face value), that's Projects confident of their superiority, confident no one could possibly be right and using their WP as a means to gain token voices when a vote is proposed (by the WP off course). If you really want to know what I think, I think Pigsonthewing finds it hard to see that anyone could disagree with his wisdom. My entire edits since I've met him have been a constant argument, to be honnest, I'm not into that and it is boring. No I don't accept most of what Pigsonthewing says, it's nothing against him, it's against the content. I am for an encyclopedia that has content, not tables. Pigsonthewing seems to be specialised in infoboxes and scripts, clearly against what I believe in. I have always, in good faith, removed his contributions were I sincerely deemed it a downgrades of what was already within the article, would the same type of content, or quality of content should I say, be inserted, I'd consider it with the same eyes; no exceptions and no crusade. It saddens me that Pigsonthewing has no other ways of voicing his opinions than constantly referring me (I believe this is the third, yet agian I spotted another one last night, so the tally must be four now). What has he got to gain, get me banned for life and implement his stuff? Childish. I feel stalked because wherever I edit, and articles I have specifically brought from stub to a fully fledged chapter in a book is massacred. I accept be bold and all that, I wouldn't have the contribution list I have now had I not applied that. Simple I know contribution lists and I see that edits by certain, Pigsonthewing, seem to have the purpose of antagonising me and fuelling an argument. That is what I think, explained I hope in plain non aggressive English. '''<FONT COLOR="#000000">]</FONT>''' ''<FONT COLOR="#FF0000">]</FONT>'' 12:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	Update:
	Please see and preceding comment; and . Also ]. ] 15:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	* and ] 15:56, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Exactly my point . I'm supposed to work with that? I'll be accused of being the reason for global warning next. Just on and on and on Pigsonthewing, do something useful Pigsonthewing, stop wasting everyone's time, I have other things to do than to participate to this charade. You constantly accuse people of ''Don't be so parochial'', ''Your slippery slope argument is fatuous.'' and ''I can make no sense of your comment.'' I didn't like it the first time you used that, but you're using that on other people's pages too. Now for that stalking, there is no such thing as a false accusation. I did accuse you, there was nothing false about it. '''<FONT COLOR="#000000">]</FONT>''' ''<FONT COLOR="#FF0000">]</FONT>'' 15:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Pigsonthewing, I thought you were accusing me of accusing me of accusing you of accusing of stalking? You're not going to report me for breathing are you? I had a bath around 3 this afternoon, do you have a diff dirty+bath+shampoo$clean*15minutes+later. You're making a sad example of yourself. '''<FONT COLOR="#000000">]</FONT>''' ''<FONT COLOR="#FF0000">]</FONT>'' 16:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Will Beback won't leave me alone ==
	For some time this admin has been following me around the wiki, causing me annoyance and offense. Even as I trying to leave on a wikibreak, he carries on. When I complained multiple types about this pattern of behavior, noting that it had led to an Arbcom case in the past, he accused me of incivility and threatened to block me. I had advocated strongly for an anonymous user whom he had blocked -- and perhaps this bothered him.
	I am sorry if I offended him, but I simply cannot take this any more. I feel like he is sitting on my neck. I am willing to do right by the community, even where I may have erred. But right now I feel like this guy watches my every move. I'm a bit spooked, to be frank.
	Sample diffs:
	He is likely to say he is just trying into to enforce policy, which is normally fine by me, but he shows up too often not to raise concerns that he has broken with required courtesy. I edit in good faith. Any assistance in resolving this would be appreciated. I am willing to make positive action in the spirit of good editing practices on Misplaced Pages, Right now, I'm just trying to go on a wikibreak. ] 10:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Do not make any more personal attacks on other editors. Calling editors who are working in good faith "vandals", "sockpuppets", or "wikistalkers" is a violation of ] and ]. Making accusations in edit summaries is totally inappropriate. If there are actual instances of vandalism, stalking, or other violation then ask for community action in the appropriate venue but do not simply use those charges as attacks. Impugning the motives of other editors is another form of personal attack. You have been warned about incivility many times before.::This is your last warning. If you continue to make personal attacks your account will be blocked. -] · ] · 22:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC) Copied here by ] 11:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	Will Beback is misrepresenting me entirely: 1.) The vandalism involved ongoing edit wars by anonIPs who repeatedly blank the same cited facts. 2.) The "impugning motives" post was quickly reverted by myself. 3.) The sockpuppet charges involves another anonIP whom I ''had'' gotten blocked for vandalism just a few days before. 4.) The other complaint is about Will Beback, of course. None of the above was a true personal attack; all comments were made in good faith. 5.) The "many times" comes from me having made thousands of edits, many on controversial pages.
	Will Beback singled me out, along with the edits I make on Misplaced Pages, for personal monitoring, deconstruction, and agitation. He closely monitored and followed my editing history to a degree that exceeds reasonable administrative duties. He specifically targeted my edits for subsequent changes, premised not on the subject in question, but due to me having made them. This shows poor etiquette and fosters incivility by subjecting me to undue harassment, plus a level of cross-scrutiny beyond what one experiences through normal, everyday editing practices. I edit in good faith and I am sorry if I offended him. I'm sincerely looking for some assistance here. ] 11:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:You say you want a wikibreak. So take one. And when you come back in a month let me know on my talk page and I'll help you. So bye. See you in a month. I'll help you then. ] 12:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::On the contrary, I'd say that the evidence suggests that Will has been very patient with an incivil and disruptive editor who has a long history of calling people "sockpuppets" and "vandals" who don't agree with him, while enabling disruptive behaviour by other editors. Will is doing the thankless task of trying to get a disruptive editor to behave like a member of the community should, and deserves our thanks. ] 12:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	That's simply incorrect. I seldom raise the issue of sockpuppets, for example, and that mostly in the last few weeks. Right now, I notice an distinctive editing pattern in which one admin intentionally follows me around Misplaced Pages -- for purposes that, IMHO, are neither constructive to the encyclopedia's content, nor conducive to its collaborative environment. While I make no claim of perfection, I sincerely try to act within civil, rational editing practices. Please be considerate and do not attack me for my honest, good faith effort at seeking resolution in the spirit of fair dealing on Misplaced Pages. ] 13:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Misplaced Pages is specifically designed to allow people to review the contributions of others, and accepting that your work is subject to such review is part and parcel of a collaborative enterprise. Particularly when you are writing on subjects like hot-button racial issues, you should expect your work to be carefully scrutinized and frequently challenged. Such is the nature of the field. If you are unable to deal with this level of scrutiny, feel free to take a break as you say. --] 16:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::FWIW, of the eight pages that Yakuman accuses me of following him to, four are articles that I've had long experience editing (I suppose I could claim Yakuman followed me, rather than the other way around). One is a talk page comment replying to his own reply to me. One of the pages involves his re-adding a link to an offensive racial blog used as a source for an obscure fact of 18th century history. And one is a straightforward warning to him about his ongoing incivility. I hope that when he returns he brings a less confrontational attitude towards editing. -] · ] · 17:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I haven't reviewed Yakuman's complaints about Will, but they don't sound descriptive of the Will Beback I know. Will's patience and fairness are well-known in the Misplaced Pages community.
	:Yakuman, if you are as sincere as you claim, do take that Wikibreak and cool off. Editors can intend well, but if they grew up handicapped with cultural language that encodes, for example, anti-multi-cultural attitudes, then cosmopolitan editors of a global encyclopedia can be reasonably expected to take issue or offense. I suggest that when you return, you should ask for a mentor to look over your edits and suggest changes to avoid future friction with Will and others. ] 19:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Advice on set of articles ==
	I've somehow got entangled in a large set of articles &mdash; one for each episode of a couple of Disney situation comedies (for children): ] and ] (neither of which I'd heard of before, and both of which I wish I never had). See, for example ], on which I've just done a lot of work, reduced from (not the worst by a long way).
	The articles were typically long and sprawling, often with immensely long and poorly written plot "summaries", trivia sections, poor formatting, etc. I did my best to tidy them, and met determined opposition from a few editors, one in particular &ndash; {{user|Kid1412}} &ndash; getting very emotional and abusive, though calming down after the intervention of a couple of other editors, and being cooperative for now. He or she has now admitted, though, to writing the plot summaries (or some of them, at least) while watching the series. There are no online or other sources so far as I can tell.
	Now, it's not important in one sense; as with more than half the articles here, the subjects are trivial, and who cares whether the summaries are accurate, well-written, properly formatted, etc.? (The same goes for the pop-music articles that I try to clean up and defend.) From the Misplaced Pages point of view, though, it presumably does matter. Or does it? Is our position that the guidelines and policies are only really for proper articles, and the fanzine side of things can be safely ignored, and allowed to go its own way? There are countless articles documenting the entire outputs of minor pop singers and bands, every episode and character in minor children's television series, discographies going into obsessive detail, all breaking many if not most of the formatting guidelines in the MoS and the relevant WikoProjects, including the fair use of images.
	'''My specific question''' is: what should I do about the case that I mentioned at the beginning? In theory the plot summaries should all be removed (in theory, I think, all the articles should go as being insignificant and making no claim to significance).
	'''My general question''' is: are we going to pay attention to the vast mass of the Misplaced Pages iceberg which most editors and admins prefer to ignore &mdash; the fancruft below Misplaced Pages's plimsoll line? If so, then I'll just remove all the articles from my Watchlist and breathe a sigh of relief. If not, then I'll need a lot more help... --] (]) 10:12, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I don't think this will be resolved unless and until a fork will throw away 99% of ]. Compare ] and ]. Another example I recently stumbled upon is our complete (and nearly completely in-universe) coverage of ].
	:As an alternative you may want o learn German and switch to dewiki.
	:--] 10:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	Is there a "keep a lid on the fancruft" Wikiproject? If not, you can start it and we could join en masse. This highlights one of the current issues with the English Misplaced Pages, in my opinion: The number of articles is outpacing the number of competent users and administrators to maintain them. Eventually I think we'll catch up again, but right now it's too much. I've supported our liberal precedents towards episode articles, but this may get me to rethink that... ]]] 10:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	*You only need to read the "notability" and "article inclusion" pages to see that this is a much trickier discussion than it appears. Part of the problem appears to be projects that aim for "comprehensive" coverage, and pages are being maintained by fans of the subject. Fans have a different calibration for "verifiability" than un-involved people. Here's some examples: ] - wikipedia is not a list of bus routes. But, it gets worse. ]. The London Bus Route articles are good articles, but they have no place on wikipedia. But they've survived a few AfD debates, so some of the community wants them here. Well written, interesting, articles aren't so much of a problem as stubs for non famous sports players - ] is an example. It's a problem. I search for typos, eg "proffesional" and correct them. This means that I find many poorly written stubs that should really be deleted. I attach them to a few projects and leave them for a wek or so. Then I prod them. As soon as they're prodded someone says the article should be kept, at which point I drop out, leaving the malformed article to sink into the gloom. I don't want to be a deletionist AfD warrior. :-( ] 11:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	** this is a subject that reflect how wikipedia ''actually'' works rather than how it ''should'', my suggestion to you is just to look the other way - it's just too much hassle to do otherwise. Any fancruft filled article will have a special interest group (we call them wikiprojects but SIG is closer to the truth) attached to it. In theory, those SIGs will be involved in keeping the cruft to a minimum and helping to produce well-source, readable articles suitable for a general readers encyclopedia, in practice, the SIGs always act as fans first rather than wikipedians. AFD is a waste of time, because "it will be cleaned up!" will be cited by members of the SIG - then the afd is defeated and the clean-up never occurs. Just look the other way and stick to factual articles, it's better for your nerves. --] 11:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	**As one who writes "surface transit cruft", ] doesn't look that great to me; if that's all there is to the history, it might be better as part of a larger article like ] or ]. But many bus routes are "notable" enough for a separate article; two examples are ] and ]. --] 11:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	**I also recently did a mass merging with ], starting soon after seeing ]. Now most of them are part of a list where the history can be detailed; only the ex-streetcar lines and the one ] route are not redirects. --] 11:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	**I suggest that you read ] again, in particular ]. The choice isn't a straight dichotomy between deleting the article and having individual articles. '''Deletion is not the only tool in ].''' ] 12:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	*Well, the problem even exists with factual articles, as was cited above with bus routes. The best thing that could happen here is for more of those who ''are'' frustrated with fancruft and permastubs in the name of "comprehensiveness" to get involved with these, involved on AfD, all of that. Grandmasterka is right, we still can catch up-but only if more people get involved, more merges start happening (and firmly made to stick), and more in-universe/original research speculation fiction articles start to get cleaned, stubbed, or deleted (and, again, that gets firmly made to stick). In my experience, one editor coming in and bringing up such issues will be shouted down by a few fans, but several coming in and saying "Look, shall we clean and source it or head for AfD?" will actually get them helping. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 11:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	There are several television series that have entire books devoted to detailed episode-by-episode documentation of the series. The problem is ''not'' that television episode articles don't belong. It is that ''only some'' television episode articles belong, the ones where the episodes have been already documented in depth outside of Misplaced Pages. Unfortunately, Cargo Cult Article Writing leads to editors seeing one television series with individual articles for each episode, and falsely generalizing that to ''all'' television series. The only "trickiness" to the discussion is explaining to such editors that it's the existence of ] that ] that justifies an article, not a wholly fallacious "Article X therefore article Y." argument, and explaining that recording one's direct experience firsthand into Misplaced Pages, sans published documentation, ].<p>As such, ''both'' positions, that "all articles on fiction don't belong" and that "every episode of every television series deserves an article", are wrong. Adopting the former position as a reaction to the latter position is certainly wrong.<p>Thus the answers to your questions are questions themselves: Do sources exist documenting the individual episodes in depth? Where did you look for sources and what did you find? Did you ask {{user|Kid1412}} to go and look for sources? If the episodes are documented in depth in multiple published works, then there is justification for individual articles. If the episodes are not documented in depth in sources, but are only documented as brief summaries or addressed tangentially, the individual articles should be merged into lists, per ]. If the episodes are not documented ''at all'', then the content is unverifiable, and Misplaced Pages should have neither individual articles nor lists, per ]. It really is that simple.<p>I can understand the frustration with editors who simply won't adhere to our content policies, but hyperbolic suggestions that we give up our content policies are not the answer. Nor is nominating "poorly written stubs" for deletion with no attempt to actually ] beforehand. The answer is to look for sources; to encourage other editors to look for sources, educating them on our content policies; to evaluate the depths and provenances of sources; and to remember that ''there is more than one tool in the toolbox''. ] 12:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:It's good to see so much discussion; I'd been afraid that my questions would just move slowly up the page towards the great archive in the sky.
	:I should say that I do (and in this case did) ask for sources, and the answer was straightforwardly that there aren't any, and that the material was original research.
	:Sources are part, but only part of the problem though. I expect that every one of the thousands of articles on pop singles and albums, fictional characters, television-series episodes, minor football teams, etc., could be given sources to demonstrate existence and to back up what's said. The bigger problem is that most of them are still utterly insignificant, and that all of them are defended against deletion, merging, or even cleaning up by fanatical editors whose knowledge of and interest in the Wikiproject is nil. (Of course, it's true that doing something serious about the porblem would mean that Misplaced Pages would shrink to well below the million-article mark again &mdash; but I don't see that as a problem.)
	:The bus-routes issue adds another dimension to essentially the same problem, though the pop-music articles are also about factual articles. Normally, though, there is a significant difference between articles on, say, fictional and real people; the deletionists insist on much more stringent notability conditions for real people...
	:As for doing our homework; well, I do when I can &mdash; but really, this is like the often-seen response of editors to a request for sources: "how dare you demand sources? They're easily found on Google, just look". Well, no, it's the responsibility of the editor who adds the material to provide the source; I don't work on Misplaced Pages as a research assistant for editors who can't be bothered to do their own work. (Maxim: If it's not worth the time looking for a source for your edit, then it's not worth making it. If it should be made, then eventually someone who's prepared to spend the time will make it.) --] (]) 12:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	(Outdenting so this won't be as long, and apologies in advance for the length, but there are some points I've really been wanting to express on this issue. What I'm saying actually works out to be similar to what's currently in ], but not exactly, and I'm also trying to provide a logical basis without reference to it, since it seems to be controversial.) I think part of the problem people have with television episode articles stems from different interpretations of what ]/] actually mean. Mel, in discussing your problems with some episode articles, you said "He or she has now admitted, though, to writing the plot summaries (or some of them, at least) while watching the series" and "I should say that I do (and in this case did) ask for sources, and the answer was straightforwardly that there aren't any, and that the material was original research." You're making an assumption in those statements that the user's writing of the plot summaries was inappropriate on the grounds that it was a creation of original research. Uncle G's comment makes a similar assumption, and refers to ], ], and ] as the basis for it: "...it's the existence of multiple non-trivial published works that already document something outside of Misplaced Pages that justifies an article recording one's direct experience firsthand into Misplaced Pages, sans published documentation, is forbidden here." My reading of the policies, though, does not lead to that assumption, and I don't mean this as Wikilawyering -- I genuinely think that what I'm about to describe is both the intent of the policy and the interpretation that's best for the Misplaced Pages. From ], material counts as original research if it:
	* introduces a theory, method of solution, or any other original idea;
	* defines or introduces new terms (neologisms), or provides new definitions of existing terms;
	* introduces an argument without citing a reliable source who has made that argument in relation to the topic of the article;
	* introduces an analysis, synthesis, explanation or interpretation of published facts, opinions, or arguments that advances a point that cannot be attributed to a reliable source who has published the material in relation to the topic of the article.
	How does watching a TV show and writing down what happens relate to this? Well, it's clearly not violating the first three, as it doesn't theorize anything, argue any points, or invent any neologisms. But what about the fourth? One could reasonably say that it's an "explanation", and the fourth point says that such things need to be attributed to reliable sources. This leads to Uncle G's point, that "If the episodes are documented in depth in multiple published works, then there is justification for individual articles." For many episodes, this is obviously going to be difficult to do in the sense that we look for such documentation on other subjects -- while the most significant episodes of a show are probably going to have articles briefly describing their plot in newspapers or magazines, many won't have any information in such sources beyond the fact that they aired. This interpretation, though, focuses on the lack of ''secondary'' sources and overlooks the fact that we always have a reliable ''primary'' source for the plot of a TV show: the show itself. ] says these three important things about primary sources:
	* Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation being written about. Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it's easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Misplaced Pages passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source. Examples of primary sources include and television programs.
	* An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on entirely primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions.
	* All articles on Misplaced Pages should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.
	It appears to me, then, that writing a summary from watching a show is a perfectly valid use of a primary source, as television programs are specifically listed as potential primary sources, and a plot summary is only making descriptive claims that can be easily verified by anyone else by watching the same episode. <p>As I said before, besides thinking this is the correct interpretation of the intent of the policy on original research, I also think it's the most sensible and practical interpretation for the purposes of building a comprehensive encyclopedia. Yes, it's going to be very difficult to find traditional secondary sources for plot summaries in some cases, but those summaries are necessary to write useful articles about episodes of shows. Does that lack of sources imply non-notability? Well, we have one source (the show itself), and we can undoubtedly find a source for details about the show (production info, guests, etc.) I think this is another point where there's argument, though -- some people seem to think that's not sufficient notability. It seems to me, though, that there are good reasons to consider that sufficient/have the notability of the show and its more notable episodes be "inherited" by the others. As I argued in ], for very popular shows, a fair number of episodes will definitely have sufficient secondary sourcing, so we should clearly have articles on those. Having articles for ''only'' those, though, may take something away from the usability of the Misplaced Pages for readers, which I consider important. Imagine that you've just started watching a show, say in season three, and you want to learn what's already happened. Ideally, if there's an article for every episode, then when you go to the main page (or an episode-list page, if it's been split off) for the show, you'll click the link for the first episode, read all about that one, then follow a link in the infobox to the next episode, and in this way you can easily read through the whole history of the show. If only some episodes have articles, though, you'll either have to click each one that exists, and simply do without information about the others, or, if there is information in some sort of summary page, switch back and forth to read everything, which seems like a much less satisfying browsing experience. Having individual pages with infoboxes also provides a nice neat way to present episode-specific factual information about writers, directors, guest stars, etc. Yes, for some less-exciting episodes the pages may be a bit stubby, but the convenience of having all the articles leads me to believe we should accept that stubbiness. In addition, this avoids the inevitable conflicts over what information is worth keeping about an episode when there's a long single page or season pages, and takes the reader directly to the information about a particular episode when searching on the name of that episode instead of nowhere, or to a redirect.<p> No, I don't think ''every'' TV show should have a page for every episode. Shows that are over and never had many episodes may be well served by one or a few pages. Shows for which we don't currently have much information can stay in a summary page or pages until we have enough material that most will be more than stubs and someone makes the effort to create all the episode pages with appropriate infoboxes. If we go by my interpretation of TV shows as appropriate primary sources for themselves, it shouldn't be hard to create such pages for any fairly popular show. While there are people here who are "fanatical editors whose knowledge of and interest in the Wikiproject is nil" who will write, and defend, bad articles on TV shows, there are also many fanatical editors who, while only interested in a limited subject, are willing to put in the effort to make genuinely well-written, encyclopedic articles on that subject. Editors who aren't interested in that subject, but who ''are'' knowledgeable of and interested in the Misplaced Pages as a whole, should be happy that such people exist and are expanding coverage in areas that might otherwise go ignored. Mel, you said "I expect that every one of the thousands of articles on pop singles and albums, fictional characters, television-series episodes, minor football teams, etc., could be given sources to demonstrate existence and to back up what's said. The bigger problem is that most of them are still utterly insignificant...." I think that's too limited of a view of what we're doing here... remember, this ]. Those articles aren't taking anything away from articles you care about simply by existing. Now, they ''could'' be taking something away from the project as a whole if they're badly written, but there are plenty of bad articles about historical or scientific topics and plenty of great, well-sourced articles about pop culture topics. This is a general encyclopedia, and any article that's sufficiently encyclopedic to meet the guidelines for notability should be judged on its quality, not on someone's view of its value. <p>Ok, that probably went on longer than it should have, but I'm really interested in hearing what others have to say about this.] 19:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::One of the reasons for writing on every episode is continuity-- these series usually have running plot lines. As one who rarely watches most of them, when I need to understand a reference to some notable episode, I need the context. The way of doing it for WP, of course, is to have articles for chunks of the series, usually seasons, with the individual ones broken out into detail if justified (for example, if they become more than 1 or 2 paragraphs long) But is is much easier setting up such a group of articles by having a stub for each; and it is not all that easy moving the less notable ones back into articles for the season. So I see the temptation. I think the only way is to try to get them back, group by group. Some of the people at schools are trying that with respect to school districts. It might also work with radio stations. There are intermediate stages between a nondescriptive list and a separate article. But organizing the disorganized take work, and the editors who could best do the work would -- understandably--rather write new and excessive articles. ''']''' 07:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	], you say: "This is a general encyclopedia, and any article that's sufficiently encyclopedic to meet the guidelines for notability should be judged on its quality, not on someone's view of its value." That glosses overf my point, though: the vast majority of these articles don't mee the guidelines for notability; they don't meet the relevant WikiProjects' guides for notability; they're utterly insignificant. They all, however, have a flock of fans, whose attitide to editors arriving from the main part of Misplaced Pages and asking for sources, MoS formatting, notability, etc., is aggressive;ly aggrieved incredulity &mdash; they've never heard of the MoS, etc., they don't care about it when it's pointed out to them, "notability" means "I like it", and an adequate and verifiable source is "I know it". For example, I recently speedily deleted ], an article on an album that consisted of a track listing and an infobox; no claim to significance, and a little investigation suggested that it had none to be claimed. I received this:
	:Hey, Buddy are you stupid????? I wasn't finished editing the page and what the hell do u do delete it!! You call yourself a editor?? i'd say you need to lay off, next time this happens i will start destroying every page u create just like u did me on this one. Which in my opinion wasn't right at all. Good Day!, Ian <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 02:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
	That's pretty much par for the course.
	You see, I'm not talking about articles on ephemeral pop stuff that meet the notability criteria &mdash; this isn't an attack on popular culture; I'm talking about the vast amount of stuff that doesn't come near meeting those criteria (singles that sold 350 copies, greatest-hits albums, minor characters in low-audience children's television, etc.). --] (]) 09:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Personal attacks by User:Hapoelhaifa3 ==
	This may require the help of a Administrator that can read Hebrew. I noticed a couple of weeks ago that someone is systematically creating pages and links to ]. The style used in creation of the page led me to believe that the user was someone close to the subject or extremely biased. I started to edit the page and correct English mistakes as well as adding the ]. This user, who changes IP every now and then, started to verbally attack me in Hebrew and in English on my talk page as well as threaten me. He made it perfectly clear that he was in some sort of contact with ] and that since I didn't know him I had no right to change the page etc. The attacks on my talk page and on ]'s talk page give evidence to the bizarre comments and allegations that he made against me hurling various insults. In the begining I defended myself, but in the end I see that I have someone here who is obviously not going to stop so I need help on the matter. -] 13:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	* The ] just did it again, adding more attacks on my talk page. ] 13:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::'''Comment''': It would be much helpful to the Administrators if you could show ''direct links'' to the ], and translate from Hebrew to English (here perhaps?). --] 13:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Hapoelhaifa3 has also been abusing me via ]. After I mentioned that he may have a conflict of interest in editing the aforementioned article (he claimed Vollach would not be happy with what's written and asked "do you know them" about Vollach and Englander, implying he does), he replied with "If either of you accuse me of a conflict of interest, I promise you that you will really regret it" (אחת אתה תאשים אותי כבעל אינטרס אני מבטיח לך אתה תצטער על זה מאוד). He followed this with some homophobic abuse, saying that I'm a "typical lefty that... wants to have experiences with men" (שמאלני מובהק ש... רוצה להתנסות עם גברים), possibly as I have the Straight but not narrow userbox on my Userpage, and calling us both anti-semites (אתם כולכם אנטישמים). ] ]] 14:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::I read most of the talk page statements in Hebrew. ] covered what's relevant and translated it correctly. These are repeated personal attacks and should be punished with a temporary block in my opinion, in order to give the plaintiffs some peace and quiet. ] 17:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::Completely unacceptable. User blocked for 1 week. Note, in most cases I would suggest a final warning before the block, but due to the nature of the personal attack including a threat, I'm blocking immediately. ] ] ] 23:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ArbCom injunction violation ("banned" user editing) ==
	As per ] regarding ]: ''3) Hipi Zhdripi is limited to his one named account, Hipi Zhdripi. All edits by Hipi Zhdripi under another account or an IP address shall be treated as edits by a '''banned user'''.'' unanimously passed at 02:54, 21 October 2006.
	..and: ''4) Ilir pz, Hipi Zhdripi, Vezaso are '''banned for one year''' from editing articles related to ''Kosovo'''. Relation to Kosovo is to be interpreted broadly so as to prevent gaming. Either may be banned from any related non-article page for disruptive editing.''
	As per the , Hipi Zhdripi has continued violating the injunction repeatedly under his traditional 172.... IP address. However, on . He also edited under his registered account. Besides this, he has been editing under 172. IP address quite a lot throughout all the past months. --] 14:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:]. ] 15:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::There is no issue here. He is banned from editing the article but he has only edited the talk page. While he could be banned from the talk page under the "disruptive editing" section of the ruling, this has not happened yet. ] 19:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] ==
	So, there was a RFC at ] about keeping a humorous image of "an unsuspecting cow" in the article. The result was "no consensus". Does that have the same authority as a "keep" vote? I wouldn't think so, but some editors there argue that because of that, no changes can be made. ] 15:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:No consensus generally means revert to keep I'm affraid i.e. take no action. Sorry ] ]/] 16:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::As Misplaced Pages isn't a democracy, the result of this RfC can (and I think should) be re-examined. It's a pointless picture with a facetious caption, neither being suitable for an encyclop&aelig;dia. --] (]) 16:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::I went over there to boldly remove it, but actually I see no problem. The caption explains succinctly why this practice is likely to be folklore and the image shows us what a cow looks like. It might be a touch trivial but nothing that needs admin action. --] 20:05, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::I'm with Kingboyk. It's a somewhat silly topic, and it does no harm for us to approach it with a light heart. (Note that the caption has changed since Kingboyk saw it. The caption earlier in the day was "An unsuspecting potential victim"&mdash;which might be a little ''too'' silly. I might have gone with "Putative victim of this urban myth", or similar.) ](]) 23:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::I think this article only has value as pointing out an urban legend, and that the caption shouldn't be some silly attempt at humor. And, as I point out ], the references cited in it are little more than amateur original research, not ]. All that said, {{user|Chowbok}} keeps coming back and reverting the caption, claiming simply it is somehow . ] 20:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] ==
	Could somebody figure out what's going on ? ] 19:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	And ? ] 19:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	* Generic page-move vandalism I'd say. Blocked. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 19:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::The link is that these are all school kids going to Oldenburg Academy ].
	::* <span class="plainlinksneverexpand"><!--
	-->] (] • <!--
	-->] • <!--
	--> • <!--
	--> • <!--
	--> • <!--
	-->] • <!--
	-->)<!--
	--></span> vandalized ] 10 March
	::* ] (] <small>•</small> ]) created account and reverted the vandalism.
	::* ] (] <small>•</small> ]) created account to continue the vandalisma (prob. was 64.184.29.18)
	::* ] (] <small>•</small> ]) &nbsp; a friend &nbsp; &nbsp; (doing nothing good)
	::* ] (] <small>•</small> ]) &nbsp; a friend &nbsp; &nbsp; (doing nothing good)
	::* ] (] <small>•</small> ]) &nbsp; ? another friend?
	::* Coolkristoff did nothing but vandalism and was the instigator of this mess.
	::* XColonelx mixed anti-vandal reverts, stupid retorts on user talk pages, and some weird (uninformed, obviously) move page vandalism (to make a point?)
	::* Patweisbrod and Lava64 did nothing good here, but nothing 'too' bad.
	::* Coolkristoff has been blocked and should have been.
	::* XColonelx has been blocked because of the page moves, and I won't disagree with that. (but consider unblock if asked?)
	::* The rest of these could stand an additional warning about Misplaced Pages not being a social site.
	::] 19:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Nice report, Shenme. Thanks. ] 21:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] needs a block ==
	A content dispute over at ] and the show's page ] has escalated, with Bluefield's frustrations boiling over and replacing the pages (and ]'s talk page) with a Personal Attack. He's admitted his frustration to me and says that he will not protest any block/ban on his account, and while I don't support an indef, I think he needs at least a short-term block to cool off ] 19:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:This situation appears to be resolved for the time being. Would another admin who isn't about to start cooking dinner care to review this indefinite block? ]<sup>'']</sup> 19:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::While the user was clearly abusing editing priviledges, I erred in see it as a "vandalism only account" and have reduced the indef block I applied to 24 hours. I'll keep a watch on and reblock if necessary. --] (]) 20:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Should you have signed the block notice? I've generally seen them signed. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]</small></sup> 20:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::All entries should be signed.] 02:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::Hmm...looking at it more closely, it appears it ''is'' signed, but the sig isn't showing up. I fixed it so the sig would show up properly. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]</small></sup> 05:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== {{user|Fecapedian}} blocked, need review ==
	I've blocked {{user|Fecapedian}} indefinitely for, in addition to his username, glaring personal attacks, harassment, and incivility at various discussions related to ]: , , , , , and . Need this one reviewed quickly, particularly given the most recent diff. --]] 19:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I endorse this block. Nothing productive from this user. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]</small></sup> 20:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::I would also endorse. Question is: whose sock did you block? ] ] 20:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::]. --] 00:16, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== User:Viktym and RICO lawsuits ==
	User {{User|Viktym}} has been repeatedly inserting boilerplate text referencing civil ] lawsuits claiming illegal pornography distribution and racketeering by companies such as ] (), ] (]), etc. The text has obvious NPOV/undue weight/notability/reliable source problems, as I've detailed on the user's ]. Their latest action was to remove an old comment from an unrelated Talk page in what I assume is some sort of misguided attempt at tit-for-tat (). Could someone visit this user, whether as an admin action, or the sweetness and light "how to be a good Wikipedian" brigade, or adding the articles to watchlists, and take over this for me. - ] 20:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I'm leaving a note and will monitor (but must shortly sign off for the evening, so someone else should as well). ] 02:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::I have added another warning. I agree that the material and behavior are inappropriate. ] 05:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Maxman24 ==
	Somehow i ended up looking at ], in which his first edit leads me to believe he is a sock of some kind. Not sure what/where to go, I'm posting this here. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Since he gave away his password on his user page and invited others to use the account, I deleted the user page and blocked him indef as a vandal account. <font color="Green">]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">]</font></sup> 20:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Harrasment and personal attacks by ] ==
	After heated debate on ], {{user|DaVoice}} has violated ] and personally attacked me (, , - all with a edit summary of "Refuting CloudNine's absurdities/absurd comments/absurd allegations"). He is now harassing me on my talk page, reverting to the same message each time. . I believe he has violated ] several times. ] 21:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:In my humble opinion, you both seem nice editors to me. Sorry for stalking you, Cloudnine, I was reading just a couple of hours ago your talk page, to check whether you replied to my last message regarding your invitation to add info at a WP alternative music page. After reading DaVoice's message, I went through ], and I read the posts by you and him (ehm, I haven't finished yet). I would like to mediate on this matter, too bad when valid contributors waste their time in this way....--] 21:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::I've come to the conclusion that some misunderstanding occurred between you and DaVoice: while investigating Misplaced Pages's policies and philosophy at ], and joining the relevant discussion, he likely was seeking evidence that he had been misrepresented with regard to his famous link in an article. I'm sure that he didn't want to attack just you; you both should have suddenly moved your chats in a proper page. --] 00:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== need someone to watch an archive ==
	An IP has been blanking selective portions of ] recently. I've been keeping an eye on it, but I'm going out to dinner and won't be able to watch the page during the next several hours, so it would be great if someone could keep an eye on it for awhile. ] 21:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	: I don't see any reason for an archive to be editted, & I find it odd that this page is targetted for repeated editting over the last 24 hours -- after being untouched in over a month. I've put that archive page under semi-protection against anon & new editors changes for a while. -- ] 22:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::I saw the page has been protected, but shouldn't all the archive pages ''also'' be protected? And better than semi? Of course, having been inspected for removals first... ] 22:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::No. If we start protecting things that don't needed to be edited, then we're not the "Encyclopedia anyone can edit" anymore. Protection is clearly appropriate there... but not in every case of an archive. --] ] 22:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::Okay... I didn't mean all archives so much as all (most?) project archives, like the above. If someone goes around altering the history of a dispute, slowly, quietly, and waited awhile, then complained that some past action wasn't 'justified'... That's why I think the history of the project ''does'' need substantial protection. I'm actually surprised it isn't automatic! ] 22:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::No, then I wouldn't be able to maintain the navboxes, and bots (who aren't admins) can't add to the archives. Bad idea, just semi it when need arises, or block in case it's a registred user. --] <small>(])</small> 23:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	Through a somewhat fortuitous coincidence, I have found that this is likely George Reeves Person/BoxingWear and that they also attempted to delete a section at ], which I have restored. Those sections were deleted on March 26th without being noticed (an edit summary was used, so the blanking-detecting bots didn't notice it). The editor also contacted me, obtusely asking me to "do something" without specifying what that was, which is what eventually led me to discover the blanking. ] 05:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I would suggest that closer watch be kept as well. The aforementioned bit deletions or alterations (say to dates of commentary) could occur, and then a user could claim the ''entire'' archive was suspect bc adequate protection wasn' provided. Something similar happened in France last year with a telecom firm, who deleted the recorded complaints of a user and then claimed that the user had never complained at all. ] ] 14:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::The main difference here being that even deleted items are technically still there, though only admins can view them and restore them. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]</small></sup> 17:23, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::I'm less worried about anything being deleted permanently (they were just blanking, which can be reverted by anyone) then this person trying to convince some new admin (like me!) that they have somehow been framed, and pointing to the archives as proof. I'm relatively sure that's what was attempted here. ] 19:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::: Nihonjoe, I think you mean to say that the deleted information on Misplaced Pages is still viewable in the article histories. Anyone can view those histories -- unless the page itself is deleted. This was one of the reasons why I hesitated a moment before semi-protecting this page: nothing was actually being deleted. However, the fact some anon was willing to edit-war over this, that no one should be forced to spend their time contributing to Misplaced Pages baby-sitting an archive like Natalie was doing (& that I had an appointment offline to keep, so I had to act) made my mind up. -- ] 19:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::Yes, that's what I meant. I guess my thought got a little jumbled somewhere between my brain and my fingers. Thanks for clarifying that. (^_^) ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]</small></sup> 19:59, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Semi-Protection may be needed ==
	{{resolved|Good call Deskana <small>]<sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 22:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)}}
	An Admin might want to wander by and put SP on ] which was featured on ] tonight in a Colbert report style vandalism comment - . Looks like this might be needed for a couple of days until all the juveniles have got bored of it. ] 21:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:{{RFPP|d}} Semi-protection is not to be used pre-emptively. Also, please take further requests to ]. Thanks. --] ] 22:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:: 2 comments - 1 it isn't pre-emptive, it has already been heavily hit by vandalism. And 2, I was simply letting some folks higher up be aware, I am not jumping through the bureaucratic hoops of an RPP posting for something like this - it is a pretty straightforward case of vandalism that may require some SP for a few days to avoid editors having to waste time reverting it every 5 minutes due to the page having appeared on national TV in the UK. ] 22:13, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::{{RFPP|s}} &ndash; ] 00:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::: Thanks - it is repeated tonight so it is probably best left in place until tomorrow. ] 19:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Clear violations of ] and ] ==
	{{User|Dannyg3332}} is a user with a lengthy history of uncivil behaviour. Has recently lashed out with numerous ] against ] on that users talk page. User is also blanking any/all warning he has received including past warnings for other policy vios. ] 22:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:user blocked by dgies.] 02:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Wikiquette alerts ==
	] appears badly back-logged. ] 22:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Seems like this board needs to be retired as it's not being actively watched anymore. ] 00:13, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:: Having alerts like this is pretty pointless, and we don't need administrators for every single thing. If someone isn't editing nicely, just pop over to his talk page and politely bring it to his attention. That's all you need to do. --] 00:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::: Someone willing to historify and tag appropriately? Its all part of the ]. --] 00:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	''--------Restored--------''
	::From personal experience, I know Wikiquette alerts needs to be promoted or upgraded, not retired, because it fills a gap in the personal dispute process. RFC requires two editors to have had the same problem, and requires a lot of formal effort. Yet "politely bring it to his attention" doesn't work during one-on-one, tendentious, smokescreen-logic disputes.
	::What I needed and didn't get was one to three editors to say, at the least, 'you can't edit someone else's posts to prevent yourself from being quoted'. But I also wanted to know if this was an admin-type issue; I think it has to be if there is no Wikiquette alerts. (]; ]) ] 05:08, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	''-------End Restore-------''
	Done. Let the games commence. &nbsp;<small>''']'''↔]</small> 11:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Strange place, that. The pseudo-anonymity was a bizarre way of getting someone else to tick someone else off. I don't think this page's decease will be much lamented. ] <sup> ]</sup> 11:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	'''''WHOA''''' This issue needs a full community debate. My strongly supportive post restored above was accidentally deleted by Imdanumber1 working on the next section () ] 20:59, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Does it have to be an administrator who deals with the backlog? Because this looks like a job for ]. ] 21:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	: All you need, Milo, is a little tact when talking to editors who aren't being nice...anyone, sysop flag or not, can do that. REDVERS, awesome job! You're pretty brave and it looks like you were reverted (all part of the cycle!). Let's take this discussion to ]. Maybe we can agree on (1) if it should be historified and (2) if so, what the message should be (I think we should educate editors about what their options are when dealing with a tendentious editor). See ya there! --] 21:21, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	Wasn't Wikiquette alerts deprecated somehow? Is this some zombie? --] 21:22, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I agree with Milo. The wikiquette page could be an extraordinarily useful part of dispute resolution if there were an admin or three working on it so that issues were addressed with the same speed that they are at AIV. RFC is too heavy-handed and cumbersome; polite notes on a talk page from the victim doesn't work when an editor is on an uncivil tear. And an effective Wikiquette page would eliminate a lot of chaff from AN/I. -- ] 22:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] and ] ==
	I suspect that Tmacrockets0115 and Kobetmacyao are sockpuppets of one another. The two accounts edit tendentiously and are completely uncommunicative. I think that some blocks are in order. I am not in a content dispute with this user/these users, but in the interests of transparency I think another admin should perform the blocks.
	{{user|Tmacrockets0115}} has an editing history going back to January. This user's edits are primarily composed of:
	*Adding POV "greatest player" lists to basketball-related articles (''nb'' - these lists never cite sources nor can they; the lists are bottomless argument sinks that boil down to lists of particular editors' favorite players): ,
	*Adding unsourced trivia to articles of basketball players he likes: ,
	*Enforcing a negative POV of basketball players he doesn't like: ,
	*Some useful edits to basketball articles:
	Despite my pleas and on , Tmac continued.
	Specifically addressing the habit of adding the POV lists, , I communicated with him. As can be seen , I went out of my way to avoid ]. Instead of making any effort , Tmac continued with the same editing pattern. When I persisted in reverting him and communicating with him, I believe that he made a sock puppet account, ]. In addition to the similar user names and near-identical editing habits, they also .
	I think this is fairly open and shut, but I hope that another admin will make the blocks so that any appearance of ] can be avoided. I welcome any criticism. ]<sup>'']</sup> 23:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Definitely disruptive, but I don't see the name similarity and sametime editing. Tma went days without editing when Kobet did edit. ] 02:34, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::I'm sorry I wasn't clearer about the names. The name similarity is the common "Tmac". '''Tmac'''rockets0115 and Kobe'''tmac'''yao, "Tmac" being the nickname of ] player ]. If you're not familiar with the ], I can see how you might have missed that.
	:::As for the similar editing times, the <s>most salient</s> only obvious occurance is the most recent occurance:Tmac - 23:16, 13 April 2007 ; Kobetmacyao - 23:13, 13 April 2007. Their entire edits histories if you look at them, are almost identical. ]<sup>'']</sup> 03:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::not to mention Kobetmacyao= ] ] ]....] ] ] 04:08, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Since this appears to have aroused neither controversy nor a great impetus to act on the part of anyone else, I'm going to go ahead and impose some blocks on these two accounts, if only to get their attention. ]<sup>'']</sup> 19:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I was doing a deeper look into this. I note TMAC has a block, but KOBE does not show one in his block log. I think my next move on this would be a checkuser, then I'd be convinced of this sockpuppetry. Your 30-day block (I think you forgot to do KOBE's though), may work. ] 21:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Oops! Thanks for the heads-up, Rlevse. Let's see if they actually get start talking. ]<sup>'']</sup> 21:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] ==
	{{userlinks|Nowonline}} gone on self-destruct and applying inappropriate speedy delete tags to all his contributions, after consensus that some of his articles had major problems with ], ] and ]. ] 01:00, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:] was already in AfD, so I removed the author requested CSD template, because AFAIK, one WP process (CSD) cannot invalidate another in progress (AfD), unless an admin closes the debate as speedy. I assume if the article is a keep, then CSD will apply, though it is likely the article will be deleted.
	:As an observation, this is about the third instance of "WP policies don't apply to me, and if you won't let me do what I want, I'm going to behave wholly inappropriately" that I've seen in a week that's COI related. Would there be a way to prevent obvious COIs (and spam, for that matter) through the article creation process or by requiring a certain type of source to be cited in a new article before it is approved? ] 03:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ]'s continuing edit war at ], etc. ==
	This anonymous user has repeatedly altered the external links of the following articles: ], ], ], ], ], and other articles directly of indirectly linked to the Master Musicians of Jajouka and/or Paul Bowles. Said user claims, and I quote his own words here, that "FRANK RYNNE & JOE AMBROSE's article on Brink.com is Libelous against Paul Bowles & Living Persons. KEEP THIS OFF WIKIPEDIA". I left on a message on the user's talk page encouraging said individual to provide evidence in a public forum of said libel so that other editors and administrators can review it and decide if these links are appropriate for Misplaced Pages. I was ignored. He is well past the point of violating the 3 revert rule, and his continuing actions are vandalism. I gave him a level 4 warning, but it has not dissuaded him. He seems to have a grievance, and I would like, if it is possible, for there to be some kind of discussion of the matter. If this proves impossible, he needs a block to bring the vandalism to a halt. Thanks. ---] 02:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Blocked for 31 hrs. I don't have time to revert anything right now, though... ] 05:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] blanking vandalism warnings ==
	] has, on about eight occasions, removed vandalism and blankown warnings from his/her own talk page. This IP address has a history of vandalism on multiple pages and is attempting to hide this from others. Administrator intervention is required. ] 04:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Removing warnings from their own talk page is not against policy. ] 04:09, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::That is true, but:
	::*1. ] says that it is "frowned upon". ] states that these edits may be viewed as disruptive; and
	::*2. More importantly, there is ample evidence that it is being done in order to facilitate further vandalism by preventing scrutiny. Knowing that somebody has previously made edits viewed as vandalism assists other editors in identifying nonsense or other inexplicable errors as vandalism. The majority of this user's edits have been of this kind. Something that is not against policy in general may well require intervention if it is done in the furtherance of something that is, such as vandalism. ] 04:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::*3. The fact that the warnings have come from multiple, independent editors makes it unlikely that any objections the user has to the warnings are founded. ] 04:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::An administrator can check the block log before blocking to see if there have been problems from the address in the past. Simply removing the warnings from the page may be a bit disruptive in the short term, but in the long run, it's just not worth wasting time over. ] 04:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::Just ignore that guy, by reverting the warnings, you are giving him the attention he wamts. See ]. Only be concerned if he is ''really'' vandalizing articles. -- ] ] 04:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Cheri DiNovo vandal update ==
	As of , this vandal is now targeting ], I assume because ], ], ] and ] are all sprotected. ] 04:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I have added the link to the spam blacklist. ] 04:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Good idea, although they might keep vandalizing it a different way. I've been thinking about the wisdom of anonblocking the IPs. Although the vandal claims to have a dynamic IP address, the same dozen addresses have been vandalizing the articles, so I think this claim is unlikely. Thoughts? ] 04:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== GFDL Compliant ==
	I'm wondering if this website is following Misplaced Pages's copyright status, since they have not cited Misplaced Pages but just copied and pasted the contents in. I don't see them as being a ] since they only copied one article, but I think this needs attention. as compared to a part of the ] history. --] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 04:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Please see ] 04:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] ==
	This user, among other things, has repeatedly refused to clean up double redirects after moving pages. Can someone please advise? Thank you. --] 05:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I'm glad you posted an notice here, because you are not so great of a character yourself. Admins, let me tell you about NE2. Ugh, this character is really frustrating to deal with. One of my wiki-friends spent the better part of last summer working on bus related nyct articles. He was working for transit, and he spent a lot of time looking around and taking pictures for the articles. He never reallly told people that. Then along came NE2. This character went through and systematically removed my, as well as contributions. He even accused him of becoming upset. He also accused me of nagging him to reach consensus, which is how we work around here.
	This character is unreasonable and completely heartless. I can't put it any other way. He needs to be brought down to his place. Rest assured, I'm eagerly hoping that starting here, something can be done about him before it's too late. --] (] <small>•</small> ]) 05:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Both of you need to act in a more mature manner in your contacts with each other. ] applies both ways, and ] also is important. NE2, you know better. Imanumber1, further comments like "unreasonable and completely heartless" are completely inappropriate.
	:Treat each other like mature adults. And please clean up double redirects if you cause them. ] 05:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	I have never meant to fall out of accordance with ], and I'm sorry if I might have. I've just been caught up in a difficult situation with him for the past month, and it has got worse ever since. So right now, I've asked him to leave me alone. What else should I do? How am I supposed to treat him like a "mature adult" if he keeps on? Can you please help me?
	::It's not that big a deal on fixing a doub. redir. If he has caused you trouble, just avoid editing things that he edits. --] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 05:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Tried and failed. Try dealing with him and see how much trouble he can do to any page. I have to keep an eye on him. --] (] <small>•</small> ]) 05:52, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::I'm a bit involved in this myself, having been the user who spent the better part of the summer working on the bus articles. For what it's worth, I think there's a lot of incivility going both ways. Imdanumber1 filed an RfC, but there really hasn't been any meaningful result. I've been called on to intervene, but I'm a little too busy with other administrative tasks to wade into this quagmire. Coincidentally, in response to your comment, Georgewilliamherbert, not all of the parties here are adults.
	To summarize the conflict for others, it is a repeated skirmish across ] articles. It's incredibly similar every time. NE2 will implement a change, typically removing sections of an article or renaming that article (naming conventions for subway stations are not agreed upon). Others will challenge him, and he'll respond harshly (such as the comments about me). NE2 will persist, not giving any ground. Eventually the issue will boil over into a more public venue (such as this page) or will die in talk pages. Inevitably, interest will fizzle and the issue will be dormant for a week or so. Then it'll happen again. I can see that happening again now.
	I'm not quite sure what the best course for Misplaced Pages is. Although I admire some of NE2's goals (such as removing every single piece of information without attribution), I strongly question some of the techniques he uses to achieve them. NE2 has basically taken over ] since he started editing subway related articles. That isn't bad, but his manner tends to hurt and alienate editors like imdanumber1. I can see that happening right here. I'd really like to see these debates happen without the inevitable hurt feelings I'm seeing from imdanumber1. {{User|Imdanumber1}} and {{User|NE2}} are both great contributors, and I'd hate to see either of them leave the project.
	I think both parties need a cooling off period. I sincerely hope some type of mediation can happen here, and I'm going to suggest it to both of them. Cheers, ] 06:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Right now, I think our interests are best served by them both taking several hours off. Imdanumber1 is hitting the hay, and NE2 does not appear to be editing. I really hope this will cool things off a little. ] 06:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	I have opened several discussions at ], including compiling ]. I said there that I will not move any stations to what I believe to be the common names while the discussion is ongoing, and suggested that Imdanumber1 do the same. Yet he continues to "revert NE2's move rampage", and also has not fixed any of the double redirects he has created. When do we say "don't move any more pages until you fix your double redirects?" --] 07:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Indefinite block of {{user|User:Itsnotacase}} ==
	I have indefinitely blocked ]. The account was created today and only had three edits but it seemed clear to me that this was a single purpose account from the edits it made. I would like to see if fellow Wikipedians agree with my issuing this block or whether it should be reduced. Thank you.--] 06:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Maybe I just have a low tolerance for racism, but I'd have to say I endorse that block. ] 06:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I fully endorse this block. That kind of editing can not be tolerated. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]</small></sup> 17:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Complaints against {{user|ElKevbo}} and {{user|Natalie Erin}} ==
	I would like to know what the proper channels are for filing formal complaints against two editors, {{user|ElKevbo}} and {{user|Natalie Erin}}. The problem started yesterday when {{user|ElKevbo}} started blanking the article on ]. Until then {{user|ElKevbo}} had not previously spent much, if any, time editing that article. I appropriately posted a request for assistance after {{user|ElKevbo}} whitewashed the article twice.
	:The following demonstrate the whitewashing and blanking done by {{user|ElKevbo}}
	:: Blanking ]
	::Blanking ]
	{{user|Natalie Erin}} then jumped in and blocked me a second time based upon her totally false accusations that I was another user who went by the name of {{user|ShacOne}}.
	Instead of discussing the issue on the talk page, as both {{user|Bobak}} and I were attempting to do, {{user|ElKevbo}} decided to retailate even though other editors had warned him that his edits were . As noted on that link {{user|ElKevbo}} was warned
	:'''Please be careful, ElKevbo. Removing well sourced content from controversial pages or sections before a consensus is formed on the talk page is not generally a good idea, even if it doesn't amout to a 3RR violation. Indeed it could be considered disruptive editing, which is also grounds for a ]. ] ] 19:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)'''
	Clearly, others felt the same as I did - {{user|ElKevbo}} was removing a significant amount of content without discussing it on the talk page and then lashed out at others because of what he had done.
	Had {{user|ElKevbo}} bothered to check, especially since he had never edited the before he started blanking, he would have found that another user or users,
	*,
	*,
	*, and
	*
	were engaged in numerous personal attacks directed at me. A simple review of the Capella University edit history will reveal many of those. Perhaps the most blantant example is when stated, .
	Perhaps most disturbing of all is that was merely warned while I was blocked. Why?
	'''It also needs to be pointed out that over the past 24 hours since I was blocked by {{user|ElKevbo}}, other editors have also gone in and restored the content that he had blanked. Instead of the whitewashing that was going on, they also made appropriate edits without the hostility and vindictiveness displayed by {{user|ElKevbo}}.'''
	In light of the contentious nature of the problem the ] article has experienced in the past, the article should have been protected - something which has already happened twice in the past.
	My final question, how do I file a formal complaint against {{user|ElKevbo}} and {{user|Natalie Erin}} with Widipedia? Both acted rashly without adequately examining the facts and they now behave as is they flexed've their muscles to prove their points - that certainly does not show a sincere effort, as ElKevbo puts it, to want to "extend a sincere offer to work with (with others) in a collegial manner." That is certainly not appropriate for Misplaced Pages editors. ] 08:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:It is common for us to see this type of complaint. I suggest you try ] first; there is currently no basis for opening a complaint. However, if you do, you can try filing a ], but you will need another established user to back you up. ] 14:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Not for nothing, but I noticed while submitting an unrelated 3RR violation, that ElKevbo's name had been inserted into the template. I it, but thought it worth mentioning. :) ] ] 14:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Also, as a point of courtesy, you could inform me and ElKevbo that you have brought a complaint here. ] 16:09, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I agree that Natalie and Elkevbo should have been informed of this being here. You state Elkevbo blocked you, but your block log only shows blocks by Natalie and DESiegel. Natalie also unblocked you when she realized she'd been fooled by the imitator, an honest error I'm sure. Admins are humans, and hence not perfect. If you care to pursue, I'd suggest mediation too.] 21:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Both {{user|ElKevbo}} and {{user|Natalie Erin}} should have also informed me of their intent to block me first. {{user|Natalie Erin}} jumped to conclusions, first and was only "informed" that "she'd been fooled by the imitator" when I pointed it out. As you state "Admins are humans, and hence not perfect." Other editors, such as myself, should also be given the same custosy - neither {{user|ElKevbo}} and {{user|Natalie Erin}} did, in fact, they engaged in personal attacks and gloated about their blocking.] 21:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Again, ElKevbo never blocked you. You were blocked by DESiegel for violating 3RR. When it appeared you were using a sockpuppet, I merely ''restarted'' the block. When it became apparent that this was an imitator and not, in fact, you, the block was lifted ''because your original 3RR block had expired''. I'm really not sure what you want - I have already apologized and I fail to see what else I should do. ] 22:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Also, you ''were'' in fact using a sockpuppet ({{user|arla364}}, as established by ]. ] 22:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] ==
	This user ] first started to spam ] and ignore talk and warnings using ip addresses ] and ] and now is back with username ] ] and continue to spam and ignore talk and warnings. ] 09:56, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	* Blocked. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 09:28, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Request for a block ==
	{{vandal|24.190.154.4}} is a school's IP address; it has been blocked four times, and someone claiming to be a pupil there (and an "administrator", though I'm not sure what that means here) &ndash; {{user|Elnerdo}} &ndash; left the following message on the Talk page:
	:<nowiki>==Please ban us==</nowiki>
	:If an administrator sees this, please ban our IP address from all editing of Misplaced Pages. We are a highschool in Northern New Jersey, and we have absolutely nothing to contribute to Misplaced Pages. Anyone who has anything important to add to wiki already has an account. ] 14:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
	I've explained that such a request would need to come from someone in authority at the school, not a pupil, and that even then I doubted that we'd be prepared to block an IP indefinitely. I just want to confirm that advice here. --] (]) 09:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	: IIRC we have blocked indefinitely such IPs in the past, but as you say as a result of formal requests from a responsible party (probably via OTRS) --] 09:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::The last sentence gives me pause. I have to wonder if this really comes from a position of authority. ] 14:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	Yes, I have my doubts (although he does say that he's a ''pupil'' with some position; the equivalent of a prefect?). We'd certaibnly not block it on his say-so.
	On a related but different matter &mdash; I've just received this:
	:<nowiki>== i'm Sorry, but please block my IP address. ==</nowiki>
	:Hello Mel, I have tried every trick in the book to get booted from wikipedia editing and now i would just like to be blocked. This is my last request, so please consider this so that i'm not able to edit pages on wikipedia.
	:Thanks-
	:<small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 18:08, 14 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
	I have to say that he has been living up to his User name, and couldn't have been far off being blocked anyway. Again, what's the correct response please? --] (]) 18:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Per ], you aren't supposed to be able to request a block for yourself. -]<sup>]</sup> 21:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::That said, if you wanted to block him for something unrelated (which came to your attention after you started investigating the initial request), I think that'd be kosher. -]<sup>]</sup> 21:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	He's been indefinitely blocked as a vandal, so the question's now moot. (I've always wondered by self-requested blocks aren't allowed; in this case, certainly, it would have mede sense.) --] (]) 22:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] vs. ] and ] ==
	For several months I have been subject to continuing abuse by vandals and sockpuppets who object to my edits and my extra-Wika politics relating to the Middle East. To date, some 160 sockpuppets of ] have been indefinitely blocked for their libellous and abusive edits to over 130 different articles. In addition to abusive comments, these editors have been adding a link to a weblog set up for the sole purpose of spreading these and other defamatory comments. Following the intervention of several administrators, linking to this hate site has resulted in automatic bans for the perpetrators.
	Now, for the first time, an established editor has repeated these libels and posted a link to the weblog. In the course of a dispute at ], ] appears to have trawled through the history of my edits, and has . Since he has clearly read the weblog, he cannot claim to be unaware of its libellous nature. And since he has studied my contributions history, he must be aware that have been banned for posting these false and defamatory allegations.
	The posting of this material is a deliberate provocation. It is a clear and deliberate breach of ]. If allowed to go unremarked, it could encourage other editors to post such abusive material. I therefore request that ] be blocked for a suitable period in order to emphasise the serious and unacceptable nature of his behaviour. ] 10:05, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:''']''' and ] have been making a tag-team effort and on numereous occassions stooped down to defamatory intonations and accusations with their tag-team reverting. this case was not much different as he accused me yet again (for the umpteenth time) for pushing my POV, an act that deserved a reply that he should quit doing so. after scores of situations where i was "against" a tag team revert effort while trying to make a normative contribution to wikipedia:
	a few samples of insults/tag-team efforts:
	#
	#
	#
	#
	#
	#
	#
	#
	#
	# ]'s bluster. He constantly threatens and attempts to bully other editors who do not agree with his own POV"] and a little extra .
	#
	#
	I could go on and on with smaples of tag team wars by these two and POV pushing. this entire complaint by RolandR against me is the result of his incessant attacks on me which is the resut of a blatant tag-team warring style of editing preffered by the two over a proper talk page discussion debate. off course by now, he's contacted allready all of his other tag-team buddies to add libel against me... but guess who was first? (Abu Ali).
	'''evidence from the article of this initial report:''' , - both were ignored by RolandR and Abu Ali.
	'''The RonaldR attack''' - . obviously, i've had enough of the insinuations and the "hidden" nick-naming and i presented that he should stop calling me out on "POV charges" (claiming his view is neutral) cosidering that someone has even made a blog to honor his anti-israel POV. ] 12:23, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::The above remarks by Jaakobou are irrelevant. The fact remains that he deliberately posted a link to a defamatory website, despite knowing that 160 sockpuppets had already been indefinitely blocked for the same offence. ] 12:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::how would i know that 160 sockpupets posted it? i'm very sorry that you have sockpuppets chasing you, but i was only presenting that you are a POV editor and that you should stop accusing me with POV while claiming you're neutral. another note i wish to stress, is that you constantly claim other editors are irrelivant and enforce your POV onto articles. ] 12:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::: please do not POV the title of this incident <sup>per this edit: </sup>. ] 12:52, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::: Now it has been made clear, perhaps ] will agree to not post the link again, and perhaps both of you will concentrate on the topic at hand rather than other editors. What does {{user|Abu Ali}} have to do with it? He hasn't edited for nearly a year. -- ]<sup>]</sup> 13:21, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::thank you for catching that, error fixed - ] what the correct username.
	:::::note: i was not the one reporting this "violation". ] 14:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::Then will you agree to not post the offending link? -- ]<sup>]</sup> 14:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::I had no intention of "posting" the offending link, it was placed (via <sup></sup> style) to validate my claim that a blog that celebrates his bias exits. To my defense, I am fairly tired of being attacked under "tendentious, POV, untrue, pejorative and misleading edits" allegations by a tag-team that claim other editors are irrelivant and enforce their POV (bypassing 3RR) under the pretnece of neutrality... regardless, i wouldn't mind not reposting that link (when forced to mention it's existance).. but it would be only fair that user rolandR remove the warning from my page and in the future avoid statements such as "silly".."highly POV editor" and such. reverting should be left out and a discussion should be done properly... in fact, i'm surprized that this issue was not dealt with earlier. note: it would also be a good thing if he'd avoid removing my warnings from pages of other users and his own page also. ] 16:35, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::::::Jaakobou, i was thinking of archiving this thread but you haven't answered Zzuuzz's question yet. Will you agree to not post the offending link? If yes, then we can move forward and archive this. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 17:13, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::::::'']'' - <small>]</small>, as you can see from ]'s reply, he has no attempt to consider other editors in a respectable manner (per "totally disingenuous and typically dishonest response", "I assume that he is not claiming to be too stupid", etc.). I see no reasoning for me to post the link (and i don't intend to) but a reciprocal reaction would be the removal of the warnning and an honest attempt at resolving disputes without the tag-team reverts per "user is highly POV and untrue, pejorative and misleading" tactic. It's become a major hassle to deal with them every time we encounter a dispute. note: why do you place no regard to the tag team revert and disrespect issue? ] 18:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::::This is a totally disingenuous and typically dishonest response. The link did not place itself; it was placed by Jaakobou, who himself repeated some of the libels from it. It is inconceivable that he can have looked at this site and not realised that it was libellous, abusive and offensive. I assume that he is not claiming to be too stupid to recognise this. Nor can I believe that he was unaware that scores of other editors posting this link have been banned from Misplaced Pages. After all, he trawled through my contributions history to discover some that he could cite as examples of my point of view, so he will of course have seen the dozens of contributions relating to this, as well as the offensive edits made to the pages he looked at.
	::::::::I have been battling for months to deal with this. Several other editors and administrators have wasted hours of their time removing these libellous edits and links from Misplaced Pages. Zzuuzz is aware of this, since he himself has dealt with this abuse on many occasions. A grudging and half-hearted undertaking not to repost the linbk is simply not good enough -- Jaakobou has acted in a deliberately offensive way, he has breached ], he is making libellous attacks, and unless he is blocked for a significant period, then a precedent will have been established and other editors are likely to take advantage of this.
	::::::::Jaakobou is now trying to divert attention from my complaint by bringing up all sorts of untrue and irrelevant allegations. I do not intend to dignify them with a response, except to note that it is a lie to claim that I have removed his "warnings" from user pages other than my own. ] 16:59, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::::I'm placeing the attention at the root. i could care less about some people hassling you about your views. I do care about the blatent disrespect you're repeatedly showing. you're the one jumping on the first thing you can in an attempt to ban me. ] 18:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	] has now twice vandalised ], removing a message from ]. He accuses me above of removing his messages from other users talk pages, and now he does himself what he falsely alleges that I have done. This too is unacceptable behaviour. Is there any way to block him from my talk page? ] 23:16, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	=== recent personal attacks ===
	Please see ] to see Abu ali's subtle personal attacks against me. It's a repeated phenomena that's difficult to work on articles with; a duo that says they "must be doing something right" after they see they have, to put it bluntly, pissed me off. when noted that , RonaldR ignored the note and reverted it back. ] 22:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] and continuing disruptive behaviour ==
	A user ] is not getting his way in a couple of current AfDs, especially one at ]. Checking out ] and also ] reveals that he is in a minority of users on a list of subjects and has a habit of pushing controversial ideas onto the rest (he even brags about this on his user page). He tried to have a user page deleted which disagreed with him. Then a few days ago, he blanked an FA at ] because he didn't like it (this is covered ]), fought consensus and reverted/editwarred almost to the point of 3RR all the way until the page was protected (which it still is), then started work on a POV fork from it to stop it from getting deleted, and now is on the AfD that disagreed with his. This is utterly unacceptable. ] 11:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] linkspam ==
	Can admins please look through the contribs of {{user|Anil Kr Gupta}}. He's added links around Misplaced Pages to what seems to be his personal site (see his userpage), and looks like he's been warned for it before. If he continues to add links to his website it may be time to consider sanctions stricter than an external linkspam warning. &ndash; ] 12:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] ==
	{{resolved|1=User blocked. &ndash; ]</font><sup>]</font></sup> 14:52, 14 April 2007 (UTC)}}
	{{userlinks|Annrex}} Possible troll. So far single-purpose account, insistently posting some off-topic rant about the Polish Misplaced Pages to ]. User pages says on wikibreak but has only just arrived. Unacceptable licencing at ] - "The Polish Misplaced Pages project is prohibited to use this file and its derivatives". Can anyone shed any light on this? Block or not? --] 12:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Wow, that's a ] upload if I ever saw one. No wonder they blocked him on the other project. ] 14:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Take him out. He started with a weird rant and turned it into a troll. --] 14:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I endorse an indefblock. User has joined in an attempt to rant about the Polish Misplaced Pages, while assuming bad-faith of the administrators. ]</font><sup>]</font></sup> 14:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::. --] 14:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC) (e/c)
	== ] ==
	He went through the Navajo encyclopaedia doing his usual dealie - I'm not sure this is the appropriate place to say anything, but I don't speak Navajo. ] 14:48, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Gosh, did he do that to the main page? Yikes. I reverted it. --] ] 14:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Hit the Rumanian wiki too: . I'm reverting them now. ] 14:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Thanks. ] 15:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::If anyone else would like to help, you can see the list of vandalized pages at . I don't time to fix them all. ] 15:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I cleaned up the Navajo wiki. --] 15:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	When you see rampant vandalism on a small wiki, report to , we can fix this much easier with our tools. ] 16:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::''Slightly'' easier may be more appropriate actually. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::The Communism Vandal. He use to go around just blanking pages and putting the image of the Hammer and Sickle with the caption "Misplaced Pages is Communism". One of the better known habitual vandals out there.--] 17:23, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::Out of curiosity, does he have an agenda? Does he really belive that 'wikipedia is communism'? And if so... Why? ] 19:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== {{IPvandal|142.157.201.134}} ==
	{{resolved|1=IP blocked. &ndash; ]</font><sup>]</font></sup> 15:48, 14 April 2007 (UTC)}}
	Can someone block this guy (and revert/sprotect talk page) before I go insane trying to revert him? For that matter, perhaps you could sprotect the AFD he's going for. ] 15:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:IP blocked for 24 hours by ]. Please report to ] any additional vandalism blocks you would like to be made. ]</font><sup>]</font></sup> 15:48, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:{{user|67.140.169.240}}'s edits are pleasant. ] 22:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== {{userlinks|Jeffrey Babcock}} ==
	User was recently issued a block warning by Durova for self-promotional COI editing, but has ignored warning and is continuing behavior. ] ]
	:And now he has an obvious sockpuppet - {{userlinks|PGG6327}}. ] ] 17:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] ==
	This user is edit warring at the ] article in regards to a.. wait..... dog. Dave believes that this dog is a star, but has presented no verifiable source and is in "violation" of consensus on the talk page against the addition. Secondly the user is also warring at ] in regards to a redundant (disputed) parameter s/he has added with no discussion. ] 16:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:User blocked by Gwernol for 3RR violation. ] 16:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] ==
	The sockpuppets and Ips of this banned user is causing a constant 3RR violation on the article ]. Which was semi-protected to stop the trouble. However he is now using sleeper accounts to cause heavy disruption and harmfully break ] daily. I suggest a ] and a full scale community warning. I have brought this to the attention of admins as it appears to be getting full scale out of hand. ] 16:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== User vandalizing the ] article ==
	Hi,
	] has been repeatedly removing entire sections from the article ]. He is mainly obsessed with the section ]. Here you have some of his actions:
	'''1.-''' He deleted a whole section that had been there for months and where tens of users have contributed. It was full of references and it had been discussed for long in the talk page. He did not obtain any consensus to remove it:
	: → ''"Racial diversity - I think this section is useless. It is quite evident from the rest of the article that Hispanics are an ethnicity not a race. This section contributes nothing to the article"''
	'''2.-''' The section he deleted was re-added. Now, he deletes a half of it. Someone re-added this piece of content that he had deleted, some time later:
	: → ''"Racial diversity - This bit is random, irrelevant and very lame. I think the whole section should go, but if not, at the very least this bit should dissapear"''
	'''3.-''' He deletes the whole history section where lots of users contributed, and all the small sections that talk about the Hispanics from Spain, again with sarcastic comments:
	: → ''"Cutting down stuff which is not relevant to the article on hispanics. Whats all this stuff about "The historical mistake"?????"''
	'''4.-''' He deletes, again, the section of the racial diversity:
	: → ''"Racial diversity - I'm erasing this section which is just garbage.Someone please rewrite a short coherent section rather than this rambling collection of users' personal issues"''
	'''5.-''' Again, he deletes the section of Racial Diversity:
	:: → ''"Racial diversity - This section is shady racial politics. It is not acceptable..."''
	'''6.-''' And finally his last edit, copy pasting an entire section from the ] while removing already existing pharagraphs in the Racial Diversity section:
	: → ''"Racial diversity - Copy pasting from Spanish people article... I still think this section is not necessary"''
	I think that some admin should say something to him, since me and other users have already told him not to do so in the ] (check ], for example). Thanks. ] 16:56, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:] that-a-way. ]] 22:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Endorsements ==
	I have speedy deleted ] under ] general criteria #1, absence of meaningful content. It was a bit of fun while it lasted, but I think the time has come to zap it. I won't wheelwar over it should anybody think I have overstepped the mark and I trust people understand that this is a good faith action. W"e have an encyclopedia to build" &c. --] 16:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I don't think this fits G1, it is not ]. I ,ight well have supportd deeltion at ] however, so i won't undel. ] ] 17:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::I confess I might have stretched the criterion somewhat :), whilst being totally transparent here and knowing that many admins knew of the page and could (and still can) easily undelete if they please. --] 17:15, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	The rules are that we have to waste our time with this at MfD, so unless there are objections, I'll be restoring it and sending there (because otherwise, there's likely to be ''even more'' wastes of time talking about it here, endlessly). Who is('nt) with me!? ] 17:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:I'm not in favour of that if it's for the sake of process and process only. What would it achieve? Wouldn't it be best to wait and see if anybody actually ''wants it kept'' first? Then by all means, send it to MFD, because it was a questionable deletion ''per process''. Avoiding timewasting over such a triviality was, of course, and as you probably realise from your statement, the intention in the first place. A few comments here and hopefully forget about it would be easiest. --] 17:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Fair enough, I'll only restore it if anyone wants it kept for reasons other than procedural ones. ] 17:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:: I say leave it speedied. I was a regular contributor to the ill-fated project, too :) It's served its purpose and had always been slightly ] - ]<sup>]</sup> 17:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::Lol, that made me smile more than the project did, I have to admit :) --] 17:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::I don't even know what it was, so it's hard to make any sort of distinction at this point since I can't see it. --] <small>]</small> 17:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::It was a joke WikiProject offering to endorse RFA candidates. --] 17:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::Didn't Kelly Martin seriously propose it as an RfA criteria, or have I been misinformed? ] 17:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::::::Kelly was seriously proposing "endorsement by a WikiProject" as an RfA criterion; this project was a joke reaction to that proposal, being created for the sole purpose of handing out such endorsements to any and all. ] ] 17:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::Gotcha. I've never been a member of any wikiproject and yet she supported my adminship, but that was then! ] 17:48, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	Ach, I can't believe I missed the whole show. That was a fine joke (one that I would have loved to participate in), but ] made the right call. ]<sup>'']</sup> 20:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:No one is suggesting to keep it ... let sleeping dogs lie. While amusing, it was also a little mocking. -- ] 20:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::I realize no one is suggesting keeping it; the question was about whether MfD or a speedy was appropriate. ]<sup>'']</sup> 20:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== User:Gitraffe ==
	I have blocked {{vandal|Gitraffe}} indefinitely. Block is up for review. The users contributions are quite bizzare, and I have a feeling that he may be a banned user trolling again. In his first few edits, he threatened and . His latest edit was also a weird one. See . I thought about this and then finally blocked him for trolling. - ] (]) 18:35, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Endorse. Clearly a troll, transparent sockpuppet. &ndash; ] 18:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:: I'm not an administrator but shouldn't requests for community bans etc go to the ].<font color="1E90FF">]</font><sup><font color="OBDA51">]</font></sup> 18:59, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::Nobody has community banned anyone. &ndash; ] 19:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	==Harassment charges against dhartung and iridescenti==
	I wish to file harassment charges against dhartung and iridescenti, who have been tracking my articles and deleting as many as they can find. They usually cite "lack of notability".
	Prior to mid-March, 2007, I had had only two articles out of several hundred killed. Since mid-March, with dhartung and iridescenti, usually following dhartung, I have had nearly twenty articles removed. A number were suddenly deleted. Several were deleted, and I did not find out for several days later.
	I will focus on the following seven articles:
	http://en.wikipedia.org/Malouf_Abraham%2C_Jr.
	Malouf Abraham of Canadian, Texas, is a retired physician and art collector. He is building a $7 million art museum in Canadian. He has also underwritten the Abraham Art Museum on the campus of Wayland Baptist University in Plainview, TX. I have over a dozen references. Dhartung wrote in condescension: "Successful allergist who knows a bunch of important people, apparently. Otherwise non-notable. Dhartung". Dhartung does not take into consideration that Dr. Abraham is building a $7 million art museum in a small town in the Texas Panhandle.
	http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Cecil_A._Bickley
	Bickley was one of the founders of Denver City, Texas, in 1939-1940, the last TX oil "boom town." The town library bears his name. He gave an oral history interview with Texas Tech. When this article was posted, the editor put it under "Did You Know" about Bickley being a founding father of Denver City. It was found missing from Misplaced Pages without explanation on April 13, 2007. Dhartung wrote: "Delete per nom. I'm tempted to speedy it, as I don't consider being named 'outstanding citizen' is really much of an assertion of notability. Otherwise, it's just a nice obituary. Accomplishment is not notability." Dhartung did not check to see that this article was cited by DYK just two weeks earlier.
	http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Floyd_H._Long
	Long was a member of the Louisiana Long dynasty who did NOT run for office. In Louisiana, just being a visible Long makes one "notable." Dhartung wrote: "Just being a member of the Long family is not, by itself, notability." But Dhartung is not from Louisiana: in Louisiana Longism is notability.
	http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Malcolm_P._Hebert
	Hebert was an elected member of city council of a city of more than 45,000 population. He was a star college baseball player and an engineer who developed a type of sewer pipe. Iridescenti wrote: "The highest office he attained was Streets Commissioner for a small (pop 50000) town. Plus, in light of the creator's history this is probably a copyvio from somewhere. - iridescenti). Iridescenti accused he of plagiarism, and there is no plagiarism.
	http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/James_H._Boyce
	Boyce was the STATE chairman of the Louisiana Republican Party from 1972-1976. He was also a Baton Rouge philanthropist. He is easily notable. State chairman is an ELECTED position, not from voters, but from the elected members of the 144-member Republican State Central Committee. Dhartung wrote: "Local politico, highest office attained state party chairman. This is not considered passing the bar for WP:BIO which starts at the state legislature level.". Boyce was not "local" but state. Guidelines say "Politicians who have held international, national or statewide/provincewide office . . . This could easily be interpreted to include state party chairmen, who are elected, or even county chairmen, who are also elected in many situations."
			This user: ] seems to be on a spree of Vandalism, which they are summarising in the edit summaries as 'reverting vandalism'. Example: ] <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)</small><sup>]</sup>
	http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/William_E._Bennett
			:including racist edits summarized as reverting racist texts. Example ] (]) 03:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	Bennett was a professor active in his profession and often quoted in his local media. He was an elected member of his county school board. When this article was first posted in December 2006, there was objection. The article survived the test at the time. Then it vanished from Misplaced Pages on April 9, 2007, with no notice to me. (Dhartung did not participate in this deletion.)
			::The IP is already blocked. To OP: Consider reporting obvious vandalism like this at ]. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 03:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User Stationmanagerskidrow removing information on ] page ==
	http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Preston_Dunn
	Mr. Dunn was a Portales, NM, business and civic leader with an impressive World War II record, which was rejected as establishing notability. He was the subject of several articles in the Clovis newspaper. His death was carried by the McClatchey newspapers and placed in nearly all newspapers in the West.(Dhartung had the secondary role in deletion of this article.)
			] is repeatedly removing information about a recent incident involving a Jewish DJ at ]. They say that it is incorrect information, even though it is sourced. The name also states clearly that this is a company account. Lastly, they have continued this behavior even after being warned on their talk page. ] (]) 03:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	I believe that Dhartung and iridescenti should be removed from editing my materials because they are hostile and lack impartiality.
			:User is now editing using ] ] (]) 03:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	] 19:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			::This is a content dispute and the article is being actively edited by many different editors. However, no discussion about the disagreements has occurred on the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	:The length of this notice is excessive; please rephrase, aiming at greater concision. ] 19:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Summarizing: dhartung and iridescenti are Wikistalking me because they say to delete my articles. Anyway, to respond to that, I notice that the result of each AfD you mention is delete. Maybe they are ''right''? -] <small>]</small> 19:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::The whole point of AfD is that it's just not one person's opinion. If someone is consistently adding articles that don't meet guidelines, then of course many of their articles will go to AfD, but at that point it becomes a matter of consensus from multiple parties. ] 19:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:::MSJapan has explained it perfectly. The majority of the editors discussing your articles at AfD agree with dhartung and iridescenti, so perhaps you should rethink how you're approaching this problem. ]<sup>'']</sup> 20:00, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:If you disagree with the deletions, please aim it to ]. Accusing other users of stalking you will not achieve anything, especially in case the community agrees with their actions. ]</font><sup>]</font></sup> 20:08, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Obviously I have not nominated articles Hathorn has authored that indisputably meet notability, such as politicians elected to public office at the statewide level or above. In my comment I state, "Hathorn is skilled at using Misplaced Pages tools and knows a bit about house style. And it's great that we can have holes filled like Lieutenant Governors and State Senate Majority Leaders. If only we could get these skills turned toward helping the encyclopedia in a way that is acceptable to the community, this would not be as sour a process." I truly wish, Billy Hathorn, that you would do so. These borderline locally-famous people that you've cited above as evidence of improper deletion are all cases that you are welcome to take to ]. I'm certainly willing to accept community consensus at either AFD or DRV on any given nomination. But I'd rather you just didn't create these dubious articles in the first place, and I -- and other editors -- are very uncomfortable with the extent to which you use your own unpublished academic writings as a source. --] | ] 20:10, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	::Further to the above, of the seven AfDs you cite, I participated in a grand total of three of them, and ''was not the nominator for a single one of them''. You appear to think that myself & Dhartung have some kind of magic delete-power; I'm not a sysop and to the best of my knowledge, neither is Dhartung. Each of those AfD discussions resulted in a Delete decision '''''by an admin''''' (and not only that, a different admin each time). As per Amarkov, ever if we ''were'' stalking you, if the articles didn't warrant deletion the closing admins would close them as keep, even if ''everyone'' !voted to delete. I also must point out that on ], neither myself or Dhartung made any comment whatsoever. As for your comment that "I believe that Dhartung and iridescenti should be removed from editing my materials because they are hostile and lack impartiality", I don't know about Dhartung's edit history but to the best of my knowledge I have ''never'' edited one of your articles in any way, 'hostile' or not.<font face="Trebuchet MS"> - ] ]</font> 20:21, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			That article probably should be speedied as an A7 for not containing any assertions of notability; which obscures that Stationmanagerskidrow appears to have been edit warring on it with an undisclosed COI, and presumably was ]ing as , and if so violated 3RR as well. It's probably best for me not to take administrative action here tonight as I won't be around later/tomorrow to deal with any followups, but something should be done here beyond just saying "take it to the talk page." ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 06:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	==Bonaparte trolling again==
			:The page was longer, but sourced (all but?) soley to the station's site and it's been trimmed down to what it is now. Given the repeated edit-warring by IPs I've semi-protected the page for two days for now. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	Someone please check http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/219.87.129.180 for being an open proxy and block this reincarnation of {{vandal|Bonaparte}}. He 3RRed anyway. Thanks, --] 19:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			::] and ] message added . I'm just about to make myself thoroughly ] by seeing what I can do about the ] article. ] (]) 🦘 09:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Got it. ] 19:56, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== ] again ==		== Insults ==
	Please refer Archive 176 as well as the user's talk page and contrib history for previous incidents. He's now taken to creating bizarre redirects such as ] to ] (a quick websearch reveals no connection between the two). A trawl through his history will bring up a few more. I've just about given up watchlisting this user, it's by time he be given a lengthy ban for this puerile vandalism which wastes other editors' time having to police. Don't bother discussing with him, he will just wikilawyer and become non-responsive as previous discussions have proven. I hereby wash my hands of this case (and if it's not taken care of I'll probably wash my hands of Misplaced Pages too, editing here is just getting TOO tiresome to be worthwhile). Cheers. '''<font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><font color="orange">]</font>''' 20:34, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			I'd like to report an incident related to ]. A person under IP already accused me of being "obsessed". Now someone (possibly the same person) . Please also see . I guess we can always agree to disagree with other people, but this is going a bit too far. Thank you. ] (]) 09:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	==Possible Tendentious editing by ] and ]==
			:Hello, Psychloppos. What action are you seeking to happen here? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:42, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	Based on Steve Dufour's statements about ] on the biographies of living persons noticeboard, ], Misou put up a speedy deletion template , which was removed by another user. Then Steve Dufour put it back . I removed the template because it has nothing to do with living persons, nor does it fall within the criteria for speedy deletion. It looks to me that they want to get rid of the aricle for POV reasons.--] 20:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			::I have no idea which actions are warranted here. Maybe an admin could leave a message to this IP and this registered user and remind them that they should ] ? It would also be nice to remind them about ] and ]. Saying that I am "fuelled by an unhealthy obsession" or questioning my sanity do not seem to respect those guidelines. ] (]) 09:52, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			==Nlkyair012 and LLM chatbots ==
			*{{Noping|Nlkyair012}}
			This editor has been constantly using AI chatbots to respond and write messages. They are a single purpose account for glorifying the ] caste using unreliable ] era sources, I and several other experienced editors have taken time and effort to respond to their endless queries and ] generated using ChatGPT. They have posted AI generated walls of text on multiple noticeboards such as ] and ] and including here , accusing me of vandalism.
			Despite my repeated requests and even a final warning to them (including a request by {{ping|ActivelyDisinterested}}) they are still continuing to do it. Their messages are repeating the same argument again and again and are frankly just ] that bring up fictitious guidelines or misrepresent the existing ones. Several editors have told them that Raj era sources are not reliable yet they continue to ask for more evidence on why that is the case based on AI generated claims of supposed academic value or neutrality. This is getting very disruptive and taking up valuable contributor time to respond to their endless AI responses which take a few seconds to generate. I have alerted them about ] and ], I would appreciate it if someone could enforce a restriction on this user from at minimum caste area. - ] (]) 13:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Hello @Ratnahastin,
	== Capella University Article Request for Protection ==
			:To start with I should admit that I am sorry for all the inconvenience that I may have caused as a result of my actions. It was never my intention to take people’s time or skew the conversation in a certain way. I appreciate the core idea to contribute the thoughts to the Wiki and share it borne in mind the overall rules and policies of this program.
			:I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site. Even when I was using AI for the grammar check or, for instance, to elaborate on some point in the text, I saw to my mismanagement that over the process we probably confused the readers and repeated the same information and thoughts, which I would never wish to happen again. From now on I will ensure that in the future the input which I provide to wikipedia fits the Misplaced Pages standard and is more personal. I will also not write walls of text and will not make assertations that do not have substantiated evidence in sources.
			:As for subjects that concern the Raj and the sources from this period and the discussions we have had it seems that I have gone too far in demanding clarification for the same thing. That being the case, with the understanding that the consensus will be acknowledged, I shall not be inclined to reopen this discussion unless new substantiated evidence is produced. I don’t want to prolong the conversation or bring any more stress.
			:I will strive to learn from my experience to be more productive in my interactions going forward. If there are other limitations or additional rules to which I have to stick to, I will receive them with pleasure.
			:In the same respect, let me specially apologize for the inconvenience and thank all of you for bearing with us. That was why I wanted to remind all of us that we can and should keep collectively improving Misplaced Pages as a resource. <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			::This comment also has a typical LLM feel and contains meaningless statements such as "I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site" and differs substantially from , although GPTzero said this is human input. - ] (]) 13:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::It seems human in that it contains some composition and grammar errors that I don’t think an LLM would produce. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 13:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Thanks for the reply sir, I can't explain how frustrated I'm feeling from this morning which this user made me experience <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::The time when I messaged Vikram banafar I was casual not formal and second of all your saying doesn't prove anything "and differs substantially from your usual (non-AI) writing style" that's a straight up false accusation and utter nonsensical point and 3rd point being that GPTzero stated that this is a human input then that's an human input end of the question. <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::No it's really not the end of the story if GPTZero says "likely human". In fact I'd actively discourage people depending on tools like GPTZero in favour of their human senses ] than yet another computer program. And, frankly, what you're hearing from people here is we'd rather your casual, human, flaws-and-all style of writing over ChatGPT output "formal" report templates. They are doing the opposite of what you're looking for and have become disruptive. ] (]) 14:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Man you still wanna do this? @] also says this doesn't seems AI generated to him and he used his actual "Human senses" to lean that way <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Admitting that you have used AI for writing your comments and then saying that you have not used AI is not going to help your case. - ] (]) 14:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::You know what I think this is getting to the ] point. Having to tell somebody to have the basic respect of other editors to not subject them to text-walls of chatGPT garbage over and over again is a disruptive distraction from what we should all be doing. ] (]) 14:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::This ain't getting anywhere <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I really don't understand the problem. Cuz I literally also said many where that yes I used AI but for expanding and grammar correction <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::If this combative approach is your "casual" style, perhaps your use of AI and its over the top politeness was an attempt to mask it. In any case, I think you are ] but for caste glorification given your obsession with a certain sub-caste. - ] (]) 14:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::im not obsessed with a certain subcaste but am sure is obsessed with British Raj sources. <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I don't think that's better. ] (]) 15:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
			== Potential vandal trying to start edit war on the page for Frisch's. ==
	There is now a another new user, who has just shown up and is on ]. The article needs to be protected.] 22:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:]. ] 22:09, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	* The account is a self-evident sock. ]. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 22:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			This user keeps using IP addresses in order to revert creditable information about who makes their tartar sauce. Please look into this user. IP Addresses used were 67.80.16.30, 66.117.211.82, and 216.24.107.180. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	== RM vote spamming ==
			:Courtesy link ]. ] (]) 17:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	I'm not sure if the user in question knew about ], but could someone please check out ] and let me know what they think? He appears to be spamming all the Turkish editors in order to get an article moved. Someone should probably rollback all the spamming and possibily speedy close the requested move, as it appears that the changes of a consensus being reached at this point are null. <tt class="plainlinks">]]</tt> 22:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	: I reverted most with popups and left a note on Paparokan's talk page. --] 22:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			== ] inaccurate edit summaries ==
	== ] vandalism at ] ==
	This user, who apparently has edited with the following AOL IP addresses: ], ], ] is repeatedly adding link-spam type of vandalism and violation of ] at ]. This user has been very persistent despite several warnings. .
			All but 2 of user's edit summaries are "Fixed Typo" when they are in fact partially updating statistical information on the page. Have left multiple messages/warnings on TP, with no response. ] (]) 16:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	Please help with a course of action for this un-relenting vandal. --] 23:09, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	== trolling for young people ==		== ] Semi-Protection ==
			] was semi-protected back in 2019. Now that five years have passed, could the semi-protection be lifted? ] (]) 16:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	{{userlinks|Defender of fantasy creatures}} created ], which asks people between 10 and 16 who believe in spirits and monsters to contact him/her via email. What should we do in a situation like this? Assume good faith that it's a dumb kid, or indef block and disable account creation? <span style="white-space: nowrap">— ]]</span> — 23:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
			:Ask at ] ] ] 16:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
	Well I've blanked the page to start with while we discuss it - can an admin delete the actual page? It could be very innocent and a kid but frankly I'd rather not take that chance. In regards to the user, someone should drop by the page for a chat. --] 23:15, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
	:Actually, that's a ban. In situations like this it might be better to contact the arbitration committee. &mdash;''']''' 23:16, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

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Obvious sock threatening to take legal action

VPN socking blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:41, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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IP 2409:40D6:0:0:0:0:0:0/32 range block has been blocked for 6 months. Liz 03:15, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This IP range has been socking to edit a wide range of caste articles, especially those related to Jats . This range belongs to Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Truthfindervert and has been socking using proxies and VPNs too. Many of which have been blocked. Now they are threatening to take legal action against me "but how far we will remain silence their various optimistic reason which divert my mind to take an legal action against this two User" . - Ratnahastin (talk) 11:51, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Just as ignorant as he is known longtime abnormal activation and especially on those of Jat article see his latest revision on Dudi you will get to urge why he have atrocity to disaggregating Jat articles but pm serious node i dont mention him not a once but ypu can also consolidate this User:TheSlumPanda who dont know him either please have a eyes on him for a while 2409:40D6:11A:3D97:D46A:3CB4:A474:99A0 (talk) 12:06, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

But wait a second as per WP:NOPA i dont take his name either not even so dont even try to show your true culler midway cracker and admin can you please not i am currently ranged blocked as my network is Jio telecom which was largely user by various comers2409:40D6:11A:3D97:D46A:3CB4:A474:99A0 (talk)

Please tell me there's a language issue at play here, and that the IP didn't mention WP:No personal attacks and use a racist slur in the same sentence there... —C.Fred (talk) 12:26, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it's both. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:37, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, we linguists don't like anecdotal evidence, but I'll provide some: I (non-native speaker of English, with a linguistics PhD) had to look up all the potential candidates for a slur in that post, and when I did find one it's not one I'd ever heard. However, "crackers" is an insult in Hindi, so I'd say it is most likely a PA, just not the one an American English speaker might understand it as. --bonadea contributions talk 13:02, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

At least in the South, an American would recognize Cracker as a pejorative. Acroterion (talk) 13:19, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Sure, but the IP user who used the word said they are in India, and their post contains various typical non-native speaker errors. ("culler" instead of "colour", for instance) --bonadea contributions talk 16:31, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Funny thing is you go far enough south it wraps back around again: Florida cracker - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:24, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Observation: the IP just tried to place a contentions topics notice on the talk page of the Dudi article. It's peripheral, and the IP is pretty clearly involved. Is this a bad-faith edit by the IP, or should we just take their suggestion and extended-confirmed protect the page?... —C.Fred (talk) 12:54, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  Is there a Dudi caste? Though I will note there is a lot of overlap between the "Indian Subcontinent" and "South Asian social strata" topic areas. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 21:59, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Noting that this person (Truthfindervert?) has taken to using VPNs. I’ve blocked a couple today. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 22:15, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive editing and WP:TALKNO by User:AnonMoos

The main issue with this editor at the moment is disruptive editing based on continuous abuse of WP:TALKNO and failure to get the point. Issues began when this editor removed 5000+ bytes of sourced material. They did it again and again and again.

Instead of starting a discussion on the talk page of the article, the user came to my talk page to let me know of their opinion of my contributions. When I started a discussion on the talk page of the relevant article, the user edited my signature and changed the heading of the discussion I started according to their POV. When I let them know that this was highly inappropriate according to WP:TALKNO, both in that discussion and on their talk page, they responded on my talk page stating ever since the stupid Misplaced Pages Dec. 2019 encryption protocol upgrade, to able to edit or view Misplaced Pages at all from my home computer, I have to use an indirect method which involves a non-fully-Unicode-compliant tool. I couldn't even really see your signature that way, and so didn't know to try to avoid changing it, which I had never heard of. In any case, they kept reverting the content supported by the reliable source, they also kept attempting to apply their POV to the discussion heading again and again and again. I finally explained that I had sought a third opinion and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, and they went ahead and changed it again anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by إيان (talk • contribs) 15:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

The other user in this case is User:AnonMoos? This looks like a content dispute over whether the article is on the English version of a German-Arabic dictionary or the dictionary itself. Secretlondon (talk) 15:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes the is indeed about User:AnonMoos. I see the content dispute as stemming from the fundamental conduct issue, which has manifested itself most egregiously with insisting on violating WP:TALKNO repeatedly even after I explained that I had sought a third opinion and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, after which they went ahead and changed it again anyway. إيان (talk) 16:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

The heading dispute is between a date heading, and a descriptive heading? that's not really reformulating your entry. Secretlondon (talk) 17:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

It's a conduct issue. إيان (talk) 19:58, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

But what conduct issue? TALKNO doesn't forbid changing headings. In fact the wider guideline makes it clear it's perfectly acceptable "Because threads are shared by multiple editors (regardless of how many have posted so far), no one, including the original poster, "owns" a talk page discussion or its heading. It is generally acceptable to change headings when a better heading is appropriate, e.g., one more accurately describing the content of the discussion or the issue discussed, less one-sided, more appropriate for accessibility reasons, etc. Whenever a change is likely to be controversial, avoid disputes by discussing a heading change with the editor who started the thread, if possible. It can also sometimes be appropriate to merge entire sections under one heading (often preserving the later one as a subheading) if their discussions are redundant." To be blunt, if you don't want editors changing the headings of sections you start, don't use such terrible headings. I definitely recommend you stay away from ANI since changing headings is quite common here. Nil Einne (talk) 06:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Actually I missed the signature issue. That's far more concerning unfortunately lost IMO partly because you concentrated on silly stuff. Nil Einne (talk) 06:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

‎إيان: I suggest you stop messing around with the section heading since it's a distraction which could easily lead to you being blocked. But if AnonMoos changes your signature again, report it and only that without silliness about section headings, mentioning that they've been warned about it before if needed. Nil Einne (talk) 06:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I wrote a long and detailed explanation on his user talk page as to why the date-only header is basically useless in that context, but he's still for some peculiar reason fanatically determined to keep changing it back. Frankly, I've basically run out of good-faith reasons that make any sense -- except of course, his apparently unshakable belief that he has certain talk-page "rights", which according to Misplaced Pages guidelines he does not in fact have (outside of his own personal user talk page)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: I don't see a problem with changing the heading but why on earth did you change their signature multiple times ? That is indeed a clear violation of WP:TPOC since the signature was perfectly valid per WP:NLS. In fact your change was far worse since it changed a perfectly valid signature which would take other editors to the contributor's talk page and user page into an invalid one which lead no where. If you're using some sort of plugin which does that, it's your responsibility to manage it better so it doesn't do that ever again especially if you're going to edit talk pages where it might be common. If you're doing that intentionally, I suggest you cut it out or expect to be indeffed. Nil Einne (talk) 06:48, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

User:AnonMoos, this is not good to see. Don't rewrite or reformat other editor's signatures. There is no reason to be doing this unless you are trying to provoke the other editor. Liz 07:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, AnonMoos stated earlier that the changing of the signature was a unintentional technical issue, due to his use of some "non-standard tool" in accessing the internet . This seems plausible, as similar apparently unintentional changes to non-Ascii character data have happened in edits of his before (e.g. ). But if he knew of this issue, it's rather disappointing he let it happen again some days later . Equally disappointing is the extremely aggressive rhetoric and acerbic tone with which he has been escalating this essentially harmless, good-faith content dispute from the beginning. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I just can't fathom what tool they're using to get around the HTTPS requirement to edit Misplaced Pages securely. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Should be impossible as it's required to even access the site in the first place according to WP:SECLakesideMiners 16:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Looking at his talk page it's been going back to at least 2011LakesideMiners 16:17, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Guys, I do not deliberately set out to modify signatures, and when it happens, I am not usually aware of doing so. As I've already explained before in several places, since the December 2019 encryption protocol upgrade (NOT 2011!), the only way I can edit (or view) Misplaced Pages at all from home is by an indirect method which is not fully Unicode-compliant. To change this, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection, which would permanently disconnect my older computer, which I still use almost every day.

Meanwhile, this thread has been set up so I can't add a comment to it from home without affecting Unicode characters, so I was unable to reply here for 36 hours or so. If I'm silent in the future, it will be for the same reason. AnonMoos (talk) 01:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages uses Unicode characters (UTF-8 encoding). Anyone who cannot edit without corrupting such characters should not edit. Johnuniq (talk) 03:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Whatever, -- I was using them perfectly fine until December 2019, and still use them perfectly fine on public WiFi, but in December 2019 a requirement was imposed that you can't access Misplaced Pages at all unless you can handle encryption algorithms and protocols that weren't introduced until the mid-2010s. I have a 2012 web browser on my home computer that handles UTF-8 just fine, but 2012 simply wasn't good enough for the Misplaced Pages developers -- you had to have software that was almost up to date as of 2019, or you would be abruptly totally cut off. If you can drag up the relevant archive of Village Pump Technical, I and others complained at the time, but our concerns were not listened to or considered in any way. The basic attitude of the developers was that if you weren't running almost up-to-date software, then screw you, and if your computer is not capable of running almost up-to-date software, then double screw you! The change was announced for January 2020, but was actually implemented in mid-December 2019, apparently because they were so eager and anxious to start excluding people. It wasn't one of Misplaced Pages's finer moments. Since that time, I have had to use an indirect method to access Misplaced Pages from my home computer, and I don't feel particularly guilty about it (other people's obnoxious behaviors in 2019 have done away with most of the guilt I might feel)... AnonMoos (talk) 20:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

...HTTPS was created in 1994, and became an official specification in 2000, not "mid-2010s". I'm not sure what 2012 web browser you're using, but if it's not able to handle HTTPS not being able to access Misplaced Pages with it is the least of your browsing concerns, given that 85-95% of the World Wide Web defaults to it now. Also I hate to think of how many security holes your ancient computer has. I'm going to be honest: with a brower setup that old it isn't safe for you to be on the web at all, and the security hole that lets you access Misplaced Pages without using a secure connection should be fixed, because that is not working as intended and is - as mentioned - a security hole. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:18, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

You unfortunately don't know what you're talking about. New ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL METHODS have been introduced within HTTPS from time to time. I was using HTTPS perfectly happily until December 2019, when the developers arbitrarily ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. AnonMoos (talk) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

And even leaving that aside, as Johnuniq mentions - if you can't edit without corrupting Unicode characters, and by your own admission you don't know when it happens, you shouldn't be editing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

This is probably a reference to when Misplaced Pages started requiring TLS 1.2 (because earlier versions were deprecated). Anyone who was/is still on Windows XP at that point couldn't connect any more. MrOllie (talk) 01:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not talking about when the update happening, I'm talking about how you have known about this issue, and have been getting complainants about it since 2011and are still not taking any steps to do anything about it. What kind of internet connection would not support your PC? What on earth are you even using? Dial-Up? Because that still is supported by even Windows 10. LakesideMiners 02:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

:::Also, how did you see me saying "this has happened since 2011" as me saying that the update happened in 2011? Can you clarify. LakesideMiners 03:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The problem didn't start in 2011, and I have no idea what you're referring to when you mention 2011. The problem started in December 2019 when the developers arbitrarily imposed new ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS... AnonMoos (talk) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Apologies. I was extremely tired when I wrote both above. I have striken the date parts. Rest of my comments still stand. LakesideMiners 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

None of this matters

I don't care what tool this guy uses or what his excuse is. If he can't edit without screwing up people's sigs, then he must not edit. AnonMoos shouls consider himself on notice now that if one of his edits messes stuff up one more time, he'll be blocked until he can give assurance that he's come into the 21st century. EEng 18:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

That's nice -- and also totally inaccurate. I was in the 21st century, and using 2012 tools, up until December 2019, when the developers pitchforked me backwards by arbitrarily imposing HTTPS ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS which my home computer hardware is not able to run. Notice that I had no problem complying with character-set handling -- the problem is with arbitrary ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. AnonMoos (talk) 00:48, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The century imagery is irrelevant. You have been warned. EEng 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

That was six years ago, which is IMO about 3-4 years too long to keep using it as an excuse. Technology changes over time, so whatever this non-standard thing you think you need to do to edit here, it may be time to make a choice. Zaathras (talk) 00:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

As I said, to fix the problem, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection which would permanently disconnect my old computer, which I still use almost every single day. I would basically have to change my workflow and overall habits/methods of working because of an arbitrary decision by Misplaced Pages developers about encryption protocol updates. Anyway, when editing through public WiFi, I'm 100% Unicode compliant, and by exercising a little prudence, I can also avoid most problems when working from home. If I was constantly mangling Unicode right and left, there would have been a chorus of complaints long before now. But occasionally I can't anticipate a problem... AnonMoos (talk) 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

And just to say for the third time: you're out of chances. "Occassionally" is too often. Once more is too often. And if and when that happens, your attitude of entitlement displayed here will pretty much ensure an indefinite block. EEng 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

If you have DSL or even DialUp. That still works with modern machines. LakesideMiners 01:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Heck, I am on DSL (and have been since, if I recall right, 2008). I have no idea what sort of ancient Internet connection AnonMoos is claiming to be using, but it's clearly one that was already obsolete before this change he's still up in arms about six years later was made. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

• The response by AnonMoos to feedback about this problem is bizarre. I don't really care what the excuse or the history behind it. If you are unwilling to edit Misplaced Pages using tools that work in 2024 then you should stop editing. The behavior is completely unnecessary and it seems like you don't understand the disruption. Nemov (talk) 14:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

• AnonMoos hasn't really explained in any detail what their technical limitations are. They don't have to, but we can't really give advice otherwise. If as others have suggested their computer can't negotiate TLS 1.2, I'm surprised that they're able to use any websites at all from that computer. Requiring TLS 1.2 is not controversial; Misplaced Pages wasn't doing anything unusual in dropping TLS 1.0/1.1 around that time. Mackensen (talk) 15:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User talk:185.146.112.192

The User talk:185.146.112.192 is engaging in disrupte editing. Neither does this IP provide sources and is POV pushing. And this IP has been warned multiple times for this on his/her talk page.

Moroike (talk) 20:52, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

@Moroike: It looks like you both are edit warring on Kichik Bazar Mosque. That's not particularly helpful, so you should try to have a discussion on the article talk page as to whether you should include the Talysh language name for the article in the lead/infobox. –MJL ‐Talk‐ 20:33, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

MJL why and how did you pick out that one article over the many this IP has made recent changes to? The IP has been making disputed edits for months and has been reverted by a number of editors, not just Moroike. CMD (talk) 01:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@CMD: I am not suggesting that the IP editor isn't being disruptive, but my point is that Moroike isn't making the situation better (using the example of that one article). You can see this by looking at their last 50 contributions where they have mostly just reverted this editor without using a summary. –MJL ‐Talk‐ 18:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The IP's edits were removed a total of 13 times on the page regarding the capital city of Azerbaijan, Baku. You can't let him continue engaging in further edit wars with other users besides Moroike, can you? Nuritae331 (talk) 17:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Since this IP user won't stop and is stonewalling, either he/should be temporarily blocked, or all the pages he is POV pushing without sources, should be semi-protected, so that only registered users can edit them. Moroike (talk) 21:37, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

After he/she was blocked for 24 hours, this IP created an account as User talk:Ibish Agayev in order to evade the block and has resumed his/her POV pushing. Moroike (talk) 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

User engaged in edit warring to remove disputed content prior to consensus

There's nothing actionable in this content dispute, except perhaps trouting the original poster for failing to assume good faith and hounding friendly admins when they try to help. Longtime user User:Sxbbetyy (4.5 yrs, over 5K edits) has made several assertions based on their clear misunderstanding of social norms. In this discussion they've failed to notify the subject (they actually failed to use the subject's name in the OP), they've failed to bring any diffs, they failed to sign their post, and over and over they seem to have failed to assume good faith of their fellow editors. A number of editors including several admins have attempted to talk Sxbbetyy down. Nobody in this discussion seems to agree with Sxbbetyy on the merits, yet Sxbbetyy keeps circling back to their own personal interpretation of policy. The discussion at User talk:Sergecross73, where Sxbbetyy refuses to listen to the admin they asked, gives another example of the problem. Sxbbetyy is reminded that creating a post on ANI puts all their own behaviors up for examination. BusterD (talk) 15:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Title is pretty self explanatory. Rather than engage in the consensus building process to determine if the disputed content discussed here is problematic, this editor has instead immediately reverted the disputed content. They have been informed of the relevant policies prohibiting this behavior and how it should normally be handled (tagging the content as disputed while the discussion is ongoing) but have elected to instead engage in edit warring to keep the disputed content removed prior to any consensus on the matter. Also important to note that they wish to have the content removed entirely, but have stated that they no longer intend to participate in the consensus building discussion. So this appears to be a WP:STONEWALLING tactic to accomplish their goal of removing the content immediately without a consensus. Seeking admin help to halt this behavior and restore the content with the correct tagging.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sxbbetyy (talk • contribs) 23:36, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

It would help if you named the editor and signed your name to figure out what you are talking about; a noticeboard only works if you give us notice about the subject and what is happening. Nate • (chatter) 23:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

The editor appears to be PerfectSoundWhatever, based on the link under the word "this" as well as this notification. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 23:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

My apology, this is my very first time making such a post. The other pages o have spoken on seemed to have signed themselves automatically. Will remember this going forward. And yes, that was the user, posted this using my phone so I didn't want to mis-spell their name, just linked instead. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) IMO the best practice is that in the event of a content dispute, the article should be reverted to the status quo of how the article's content appeared before the dispute started, until such a time that consensus is established to re-add it (see: WP:STATUSQUO). It seems like the beginning of the content that is in dispute was added on 18 August 2024, the dispute began a few weeks later on 23 September 2024 and has been ongoing ever since.In this case, since the article existed in a relatively steady state for several months (or even years?) previous to the disputed material being added, I think it'd be wise to leave the disputed content out of the article until the discussion comes to a close. RachelTensions (talk) 00:07, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I have been seeing this opinion from a few editors and even one admin on how to interpret this article. However, the first few sentences in that section do outright state to avoid reverting the disputed content prior to a consensus. And prior to opening this report, I asked several admins on the topic and got a response that reverting the disputed content immediately is incorrect per WP:STATUSQUO as it bypasses the consensus building process. I was advised that the content should instead be tagged as disputed rather than be outright removed. The offending user was made aware of the relevant policies but has nonetheless engaging in edit warring to keep it reverted, hence this report. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:13, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

The status quo of an article constitutes implicit consensus (WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS). The person trying to include disputed content in an article despite it not being status quo is the one that could be construed as attempting to bypass the consensus building process, not the person trying to maintain status quo until discussion takes place. RachelTensions (talk) 17:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Correct, and at no point was the definition of what constitutes the status quo ever in contention. In fact, if you review the edit history of the article you can see that the disputed content was the status quo via implicit consensus at the time PSW chose to first outright revert the content, and then continued to revert it as others tried to restore it (both before and after the consensus discussion began). Sxbbetyy (talk) 23:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

the disputed content was the status quo via implicit consensus at the time PSW chose to first outright revert the content
Not really, I personally wouldn't define "been there a few weeks" as status quo.I think maybe the other replies to this thread provide pretty good reasoning to take a step back and say "hey maybe I'm the one in the wrong here" instead of talking in circles RachelTensions (talk) 00:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Personally I think the number of contributions since the edit where it has gone unchanged is a more useful metric, especially on low traffic pages such as this one. Regardless, per the policy you cite, there seems to be no official Misplaced Pages stance on what exact criteria are needed for a contribution to be considered the current status quo, beyond it having been unchallenged in subsequent contributions (which is the case here).

As for the rest of your comment, there seems to be a high amount of band wagoning and "Proof by assertion" going on in the rest of this. Or people trying to use this report as an extension of the dispute discussion on the article's talk page. Hopefully more actual admins to chime in on the topic as I don't actually want to waste my time talking in circles.

On that note thanks for actually taking the time and baseline minimal effort to engage in a discussion where you actually support your point and don't just devolve into repeating the same talking points over and over. It's a nice change of pace. Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I am the editor being discussed here. I'll provide a summary of events since the initial statement by Sxbbetyy is misleading.

Myself and the editor had a content dispute at Team Seas (1) and following circular discussion, I stopped engaging since I felt I had laid out my points. Per WP:STATUSQUO, I maintained the state of the article to before the dispute. I requested for a third opinion, which was answered by @BerryForPerpetuity:, who agreed the statement should be removed, albeit for a different reason than mine. I took this 2-1 as rough consensus. I also posted the dispute on two WikiProjects, and have received no response so far. Sxbbetyy reached out to three admins about the matter, @Sergecross73, Oshwah, and Pbsouthwood:. The Sergecross73 discussion can be summarized as Sergecross believing that I haven't engaged in misconduct, and that I have presented a "plausible, good-faith interpretation of SYNTH". Sxbbetyy then accused Sergecross73 of not acting in good faith. Oshwah did not respond to the post on their talk page, but @BusterD: did, essentially agreeing that the sourcing does not back up the claim in the content dispute. Sxbbetyy received help on Pbsouthwood's talk page about responding to a content dispute. And now we're here.

Throughout these interactions, Sxbbetyy has demonstrated a failure to assume good faith, refuses to accept that they may be wrong, and WP:BLUDGEONs talk pages, refusing to let the other editor have the last word. Frankly, this is a massive waste of editor time: it should have been a brief talk page discussion then an RfC. Apologies for all the pings. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 00:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

This summarization in itself leaves out critical context, (such as berry's concern being alleviated and them no longer expressing a desire to remove the content), the specifics of why that conversation with Serge ended the way it did despite my repeated attempts to engage with them in good faith, and the entire discussion with pbsouthwood (who quite definitively explained that the behavior PSW was engaged in was not correct). So I urge all involved to go read those topics to get the correct context through your own eyes and then discuss any concerns from what you see here. That being the case, it seems pretty clear cut imo. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Just to be clear, in no way did I express that I didn't want the content to be removed. I did not receive a notification for your reply, and I wouldn't have engaged either way. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 17:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I would leave that material out of the article. Whilst it may not exactly be synthesis per se, it is certainly editorialising ("the removal of that amount of marine debris is of negligible consequence...") unless there is an actual source that says this by making a link between between the two statistics (the amount of waste removed by Team Seas and the rate at which waste is entering the ecosystem). And even then, I would say that such an edit would need to say something like "However, ARandomNewspaper pointed out that ...". Black Kite (talk) 00:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

That is actually no longer the content that is being disputed. If you look at the latest version that got reverted on the article you can see the current version. I had made edits to it precisely because of valid WP:NPOV concerns brought to my attention by PSW. However, their dispute with the content remains with the claim that is is synthesis rather than any other concern. Which they have been thus far unable to obtain a consensus on. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

• I have some pretty serious WP:IDHT concerns about the topic starter here. They came to me for help (no idea how/why me, I have no connection to this dispute) and I repeatedly told them I didn't see any misconduct, and then they started attacking me when I refused to agree with them. And now this. This is a very simple content dispute, with a very simple no consensus means no change outcome. I've told them this. It's a disappointing time sink on a rather trivial content dispute. Sergecross73 msg me 00:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

  At no point was he "attacked". I defended myself after he became hostile with me (as anyone can read in our convo, I stated multiple times that I would leave and did not want to be a burden if they didn't want to engage with this, but he made no such objections and continued). Eventually he just became outright hostile and refused to explain their points any further, devolving the conversation into them repeating themselves over and over, its all there to read on his talk page. As for why I contacted him, I wanted to ensure I chose impartially so I just randomly looked at the currently active admins at the time and he was the first one I found. Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

  The discussion is right here, if anyone wants to look. The "attack" I'm referring to you is your accusation that I responded to you in bad faith. I was not involved in the dispute, have no stance on it, and had no pre-conceived notions about either of you - what in the world would my motivations be for "bad faith responses"? It doesn't make any sense. You simply didn't get the response you wanted, and proceeded to badger me on it. Did I get vaguely irritated when I volunteered my time to review and comment on a dispute I had no stance or interest in, only to get all sorts of sour grapes responses on it? Yeah, sure, but who wouldn't? Sergecross73 msg me 18:44, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

• I'm here from my input at the 3rd opinion request. This is nothing more than a trivial content dispute, I see no reason for this to be at ANI. I somewhat agree with the claim of synthesis, it becomes more susceptible to incorrect information, and from my analysis it seemed like the claim in the disputed content was completely wrong. Two different sources, from two different time periods. My $0.02: The claim of stonewalling is ridiculous, there was ample good-faith discussion based on existing policy and guidelines. This editor does not assume good faith, it appears that he claims that editors disagreeing are acting in bad faith. From him to administrator Sergecross73: "I'm not wasting time engaging with you if you aren't going to speak with me in good faith." It seems that he roots his argument based on the editor who removed it rather than the content itself. Very unfortunate waste of time. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 15:31, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

  Exactly. It's not "stonewalling" that's happening here. PerfectSoundWhatever has discussed at-length at the talk page. They're simply not willing to talk circles indefinitely. And we don't require that of editors. I've urged Sxbbetyy to, rather that spin their wheels arguing with the same person endlessly in a stalemate, to try to get other participants to take part. But they've refused, and instead decided to move their arguing to ANI instead. As I noted to them in one of my last comments to them, if they spent half as much effort in consensus-building as they did complaining and arguing, they could have built a consensus by now... Sergecross73 msg me 17:30, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

  Reading any of what I wrote in this dispute shows clearly that is not the case. Also, the quoted sentence is completely taken out of context.

  Here is what was said in the mesaage before that they left out, "Not really the logical conclusion one draws from reading any of what I wrote here, where I asked multiple times for you to explain your reasoning in your replies (instead your response was to repeat yourself without offering further explanation), but if that is what you want to take away from this that's fine by me. I'm not wasting time engaging with you if you aren't going to speak with me in good faith."

  The message as a whole was replying to was a passive aggressive insult that didn't progress that conversation, hence the response as it was clearly not an example of engagement in good faith.Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, it looks like the participants in the dispute on the Team Seas article are acting as if this report is an extension of that dispute discussion.

This is a report of edit warring to revert disputed content prior to a consensus being reached (there was no consensus prior to the reversion and there still is no consensus, as admitted by PSW themselves in that very dispute and In their latest revert message, no idea why now in this report they are trying to claim that there is suddenly consensus for removal).

This is not a report on the dispute itself, just to make that very clear since those involved are responding as if it is. Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

You've still got this backward. You need to show a consensus to keep your content in the article, as everyone else has been telling you. WP:ONUS is directly on point, and I'll quote it here: The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. MrOllie (talk) 18:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I have tried to inform them of this many times and many ways. I do not know why they cannot wrap their head around the concept. Conceptually, it would be very problematic if we were required to retain every disputed content until consensus ruled it out. It wouldn't be workable. Sergecross73 msg me 19:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Nobody is arguing WP:ONUS here...not in the dispute and not here in this report. The point is that the content is being removed prior to there being a consensus on if it should be removed.

I was directly advised by admin Pbsouthwood that the removal of disputed content BEFORE any consensus has been reached is not allowed (save for specific situations, none of which apply to the disputed content) as this bypasses the consensus building process. Here is the talk page where I was advised this. This is echoed with the wording in WP:STONEWALLING and WP:STATUSQUO. Here is the direct quote from the latter, "To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the status quo ante bellum during a dispute discussion. Instead, add an appropriate tag indicating the text is disputed. For an article, many of the inline dispute tags are appropriate. For other pages, is good. Leave the status quo and the tag in place until the discussion concludes." Sxbbetyy (talk) 19:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

The point is that the content is being removed prior to there being a consensus on if it should be removed. <--- No. This is your problem. What you are saying here is incorrect. Policies say the opposite of this. You are not going to get support at ANI. In fact, the longer you keep going with this WP:IDHT insistence that community practice is actually the opposite of what policies plainly say it is, the more likely it is you're going to find yourself blocked for disruption. Pbsouthwood didn't tell you this either (what he wrote doesn't match what you've been doing), and your initial question did not properly represent the situation at hand. But we can invite him here to see if he actually supports what you're doing here: @Pbsouthwood:, what say you? MrOllie (talk) 20:06, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

This entire comment serves absolutely zero purpose whatsoever. You're parroting what others have already said with no supporting evidence. Along with throwing in an oddly included threat that is completely nonsensical and wholly unwarranted.

And while I could point out the myriad of ways your claim about what Pbsouthwood said was inaccurate, that would pretty much involve reposting his reply, which is a waste since anyone can already go to his talk page and read it themselves.

So at this point, if you need that admin to come here and tell you what they already said themselves, more power to you. Would save us all a ton of time to get an authoritative answer on this, especially with another admin holding the opposite view point, in spite of the specific policy wording. Sxbbetyy (talk) 23:08, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

No matter how much you insist otherwise, there does not need to be an established consensus for the removal of content. Drop the stick. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not the one insisting otherwise...this report only exists because an admin told me otherwise. And as I've posted in my previous replies, the wording in the policies clearly support that. Makes me question how many have actually bothered to really read these policies... Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

The other admin told you nothing about the removal of WP:SYNTH, which is always appropriate. Back away from the dead horse. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:19, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

1. This report is not an extension of the dispute discussion for that article, if you want to involve yourself in that discussion, do so there, do not hijack this report.
2. The disputed content is plainly not WP:SYNTH as I explain on the talk page in great length, with nobody thus far having provided valid examples as to how it is.
3. If you are going to make the claim that any WP:SYNTH concerns warrant immediate reversion without consensus, please feel free to share the quote in the relevant policy that says this. I have not found any such wording and instead found that what is present matches up with what PBsouthwood informed me.

Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Come on, how many people need to tell you you're wrong? Sergecross73 msg me 02:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

At this point I say that my advice was given without a specific context, and without prejudice. I maintain that it is more collegial and polite to discuss a removal of unsourced but plausible content before removing it, as it can often avoid disputes of this kind, but it is not forbidden to arbitrarily delete content that an editor plausibly considers inappropriate provided the relevant reason is given. It is always the responsibility of the person advocating inclusion to provide a reference when challenged, regardless of the process of challenge.

Some forms of synthesis are acceptable. If a conclusion is logically inevitable based on undisputed factual premises, or is a simple mathematical calculation, we routinely accept claims that may not be specifically stated in a source, but we may require the logic to be explained, as it may not be obvious to the reader.

At the risk of being hoist with my own petard, I also refer readers to WP:Don't be a dick (looks like that essay has been expunged, try Meta:Don't be a jerk). · · · Peter Southwood : 06:59, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I think many of us used to the mess editors adding unsourced content can create would strongly oppose leaving in unsourced content just because it's plausible. The standard should instead be at a minimum that you believe the claim made is most likely correct and sourceable not simply that it's plausible. Although ultimately such discussions are a little silly anyway. If editors would just add sources rather than leaving it for someone else because they're claiming it's unlikely to be challenged or whatever, there would be a need for others to decide whether to query or remove unsourced content. Nil Einne (talk) 09:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I was suggesting tagging with citation needed while you wait a reasonable time for a response, but as we know some of us do not have the patience and just revert. It in not unheard of to know something, but not have a source handy at the time. What is obvious to one may be totally obscure to others. This is acceptable within policy and guidelines. You could start a RfC to have the guidelines changed, but I suspect it would not get through as being a bit bitey. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood : 12:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, what you say is true, that's absolutely an acceptable approach. But that's not really the problem at hand here. The bigger issue is that Sxbbetyy appears to be believe that the alternative approach - reverting per STATUSQUO or NOCONSENSUS - is somehow misconduct, and that's simply not true. They're not arguing about if your approach is valid, they're arguing that its compulsory, and they're attempting to report a user for not following your possible approach, which is completely meritless. Sergecross73 msg me 17:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Please do not put words in my mouth. The only reason this report exists is because Peter Southwood advised that this was how I should proceed if the editor participating in this no-consensus reverting continued to do so and was unreceptive to further discussion. (Both are true by admission of PSW themselves). Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen that discussion, but you presented the situation to them entirely in hypotheticals that lacks crucial context. You frame PSW as unwilling to engage in discussion but omit the fact that PSW did engage in extensive discussion already. You accuse PSW of edit warring to keep their information in the article, but omit the fact that you're equally guilty of edit warring, as you're responsible for every single counter-revert in the situation. I would think the near-unanimous rejection of this ANI report would indicate that this was not, in fact, a good thing to report. Best case scenario, this is archived with no action, but I'd be shocked if it didn't result in a WP:BOOMERANG. Sergecross73 msg me 18:44, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't know why you are attempting to present the entire discussion on that talk page as some sort of proof that PSW was willing to engage in further discussion to halt the behavior this report is about. At no point whatsoever did PSW ever indicate anything like that; if they did this report wouldn't exist as the discussions on your talk page or Peter Southwood's page would have never needed to happen. Not to mention if you take the time to actually read the discussion, you see that most of it is on the specifics of the validity of the WP:SYNTH claim made by PSW, eventually culminating in PSW actually asserting that they will not stop change their position on this and then outright refusing to engage any further.

And now you accuse me of edit warring by citing the entire recent edit history of the page...this isn't fooling anyone who actually bothers to read any of the revert messages and examine the timeline of when they occurred (talk about omitting "crucial context").

Beyond just slandering my character, I don't really see what these kind of spurious claims accomplish. It wastes everyone's time, makes yourself look biased and hostile, and adds nothing to the conversation. Keep things civil please, I really shouldn't have to tell you of all people that basic expectation. Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Wait...are you seriously trying to suggest that, even though you were the only one who reverted him every single time, he was edit warring and you weren't? Sergecross73 msg me 02:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

If you are going to continue to twist words and make false claims immediately after being asked to keep things civil, maybe it would be best for all involved if you just moved on from this conversation. Sad that even has to be stated at this point, it should be a given. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Yet another IDHT response where you try to baselessly chastize me rather than address anything anyone is saying to you. Sergecross73 msg me 18:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

What a choice to post this exact type reply to my last message... not to mention the sheer absurdity of it. To claim that I've never addressed anyone's points in my replies is so easily and visibly wrong (literally this entire topic is full of my detailed replies to people's concerns, including this very reply) that it's almost insulting to the rest of the people participating in this or to anyone who even chooses to read that message. It's as if you think nobody can see the rest of this discussion (or even the comments directly above it). Sxbbetyy (talk) 11:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to respond and my apology for any inconvenience it may have caused. Ive tried to keep it as civil as possible, but there seems to be a very hostile air in this discussion by those with the dissenting opinion. As for how this situation is to be resolved, would it be appropriate to restore the currently disputed content with the appropriate tags (as it is sourced and was the statusquo on the page at the time of reversion)? Or is there something further that must be done here? I'm generally unfamiliar with how ANIs actually function. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Have you considered starting an WP:RFC? The fact is that you made a WP:BOLD addition to the article; someone else objected to it, which means you now ought to seek consensus for your addition. As numerous people have told you, none of the relevant policies and guidelines (WP:ONUS, WP:BRD, WP:QUO, etc) would allow you to make a recent addition the "default" the way you want, but more generally - the problem is that you're trying to dig through policy for something that will make your preferred version the default, allowing you to have it in the article without having to demonstrate consensus for it even in the face of challenges. Even if the policies and guidelines I listed were on your side this would still be a bad way to approach it. You have a conflict, your goal should be to resolve it by making consensus as clear as possible - figuring out what the crux of the dispute is and then, if you can't reach a compromise, holding an RFC to see where consensus lies. Also, I have to point out that just by a quick nose count of people who have weighed in on talk, I'm seeing a dispute that is now three-to-one against you. That is a consensus - not a massive one, maybe an RFC will pull in a bunch of people that say something else, but it doesn't make sense for you to keep demanding a consensus to remove something you added when there actually is such a consensus on talk. You've disagreed with their arguments but they're not obliged to WP:SATISFY you; ultimately if you think your arguments are so strong and theirs are so weak, the only real option for you at this point is to start an RFC and hope that you can demonstrate that there. --Aquillion (talk) 04:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

As mentioned earlier in the discussion, this report is not an extension of the dispute on that article, nor is that what this report is about. Also, a RFC was already started for the topic about a week or so ago by PSW, but that occurred after he reverted the status quo, disputed content with discussion (repeatedly). As for the rest of your comment, Peter Southwood, an admin, has addressed what is the actual expectation. Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

What? I never started an RfC. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 19:07, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I just checked and on 12/9/24 at Serge's talk page you said the following, "Thanks – just wanted to mention I requested comments from WP Internet Culture and WP YouTube about 2 weeks ago."

Did that not actually happen? Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:11, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:RFC is a specific process. Asking questions on a couple of Wikiprojects is not an RFC. MrOllie (talk) 02:22, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

That's fundamentally not what an RFC is. This is getting ridiculous... Sergecross73 msg me 03:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

It's almost like this is the very first time I've ever been involved in this kind of issue on Misplaced Pages before...seriously these kind of replies come off as rude and don't actually say anything meaningful or helpful. Ever since our conversation on your talk page you have made next to no real effort to engage in good faith and I find that highly disappointing to be coming from an admin. And my apology if I offended you at all at some point or if you have just "lost your patience" with me, but I don't see how that gives you the green flag to suddenly disregard WP:Civility. I certainly haven't, in spite of being on the receiving end of this. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I haven't said anything uncivil, I just keep calling you out when you say something incorrect. Sergecross73 msg me 18:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Cunningham's Law, is a powerful force, I find it difficult to resist myself. MrOllie (talk) 18:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Request for closure

Despite its large size, the consensus here is quite clear. There's no misconduct here, just standard following of procedures of WP:STATUSQUO and WP:NOCONSENSUS, which is perfectly acceptable. Not a single person has suggested taking any action towards PerfectSoundWhatver. Outside of a a potential IDHT BOOMERANG, there's nothing left to be done here. Can someone close this? Sergecross73 msg me 14:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I second that. If there has been any edit-warring by any party that should be dealt with in the normal way. PerfectSoundWhatever has certainly done nothing wrong, and the OP will get blocked if they don't start listening to people pretty quickly. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. And even that's probably unlikely, as most of the "edit warring" was singular reverts with days or weeks in between. It's far from a 3RR situation at least. Sergecross73 msg me 15:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I don't think this conversation is going anywhere fast, other than seemingly coming to the conclusion that @PerfectSoundWhatever has done nothing wrong, which seems to be the opposite of what this ANI post was about. There's no edit warring here, and even if there was, it wouldn't be dealt with at this venue. Shut it down! RachelTensions (talk) 16:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

In what way whatsoever is this editor's decision to revert the disputed content during the discussion "standard following of procedures of WP:STATUSQUO"? The literal first words that appear at that link are in bold and say, "Avoid reverting during discussion", followed by a detailed explanation of the actual proper procedure. And to make it very clear what it says, here is the literal first paragraph verbatim: "To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the status quo ante bellum during a dispute discussion. Instead, add an appropriate tag indicating the text is disputed. For an article, many of the inline dispute tags are appropriate. For other pages, {{under discussion inline}} is good. Leave the status quo and the tag in place until the discussion concludes." Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

In what way is that your read of the consensus in the discussion above? Sergecross73 msg me 02:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

In what world do you logically come to that conclusion from a message that consist of almost entirely the word for word quote of the procedures described in WP:STATUSQUO, that directly counters the claim you just made? Are you saying it is "against consensus" simply because it presents a viewpoint you don't like and don't want to address? I don't see another reason why you would again twist my words, to the point of lunacy. And this is, once again, despite the fact that all of what has been said is literally within view.

Also, regarding the consensus. Out of everyone that has actually joined the discussion and all the messages sent (~90% of which are either from myself or you Serge), there have been only three people who have actually said anything in support of your interpretation of this. The rest either did not discuss the topic, did not express an opinion, or were Peter Southwood who supported the interpretation of WP:STATUSQUO as stated on its page. Seems like you're just trying to rush a end to the conversation to get the conclusion you want. Sxbbetyy (talk) 15:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm saying there has been no consensus for anything you're arguing here. Not a single person has supported action against PSW. Sergecross73 msg me 15:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The status quo ante bellum that shouldn't be reverted from is the version without the new content. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mgtow definition

Editor was pointed to the talk page and then stopped editing. It looks like this was a case of WP:GRENADE. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:45, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

There are blatant lies in the wiki definition of "mgtow". The goal is accuracy, not "man bashing". Camarogue100 (talk) 14:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

@Camarogue100, you should discuss this at Talk:Men Going Their Own Way. This noticeboard is for conduct issues, not content issues. Schazjmd (talk) 14:54, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with the definition of MGTOW. Maximum Gross Takeoff Weight is an internationally accepted and used term used by every airplane and airline in the world. Canterbury Tail talk 16:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

The cintent is incorrect. Mvto is NOT "misogynistic". There is no "hate" towards women, only avoidance. Camarogue100 (talk) 20:21, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

@Camarogue100, you were directed to the talkpage, which includes an FAQ on the term you keep trying to remove, along with extensive discussion. You should start there before just removing sourced content that you don't like. We'll leave aside the absence of required notifications to Black Kite and myself who have warned you for your conduct. Acroterion (talk) 17:41, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Where do I find the talk page? Camarogue100 (talk) 20:21, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

@Camarogue100, I linked it for you in my comment above. Schazjmd (talk) 20:27, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

• Camarogue100's removal of material unfavorable to the subject with an edit summary of "typo" indicates to me that they are here to play games, not improve the encyclopedia. Any more disruption should result in an immediate block IMO. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Creating the need to make 400,000 unnecessary edits

Can we please dp something about editors who make unnecessary changes to widely-used modules, and then need to change 400,000 talk pages to get the same result we had before the change? Thanks to this change from last week, which removed the parameter "living" from the bannershell, we now have more than 400,000 pages in Category:Pages using WikiProject banner shell with unknown parameters. After the "cleanup" by User:Tom.Reding (and perhaps others), we will have the exact same result as we had last week, no new functionality, no new categories, no improvement at all, but a lot of flooded watchlists.

I tried to get him to stop at User talk:Tom.Reding#Cosmetic edits, to no avail. This isn't the first time, as you can see from that discussion. Fram (talk) 14:57, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

If you want to discuss {{WikiProject banner shell}}, you should do so at Template talk:WikiProject banner shell.

As for the size of the category, I have no plans to empty it, and was only going to update a few hundred more categories and templates.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  15:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

You made nearly 2000 of such edits in the last few hours, and when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries. I have no way to know how many more you planned now or in future runs. Starting a discussion at the module would hardly stop you. Fram (talk) 15:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

"when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries": incorrect. Since you wrongly thought I was making cosmetic edits, i.e. "no change in output or categories", the category was to inform you that they are not cosmetic.

Regarding a BRFA for the bulk of the category, that's looking more likely since the category appears to be neglected.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  15:29, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Unnecessary removing a synonym and then making thousands of edits to remove the hidden cat created by that unnecessary change is not really any better than making cosmetic edits, the end result is that nothing has changed for the affected pages at all. Fram (talk) 15:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Not unnecessary. The Lua code is very complex and removing the need the support various settings makes the code both easier to read and maintain. As always, editors that don't want to see these edits can hide these by hiding the tag "talk banner shell conversion". Gonnym (talk) 12:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

It doesn´t look as if the specific code to have these synonyms was very complicated though, the argument that in some cases two synonyms were used on one page with conflicting values was more convincing. And the edits I complained about did not have that tag, so no, even if people knew about hiding that tag, it wouldn't have helped here at all. Fram (talk) 16:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

This was discussed in detail on Template talk:WikiProject banner shell. Ideally these edits would be done by an approved bot so they do not appear on people's watchlists. The main benefit is to merge the |blp= and |living= parameters. When both are in use, we find they often get conflicting values because one gets updated and the other does not. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Isn't it more logical to first have a bot cleanup the unwanted parameter, then remove it from the template, and only then start populating the cat with the somehow remaining or since added instances? In any case, this is a typical bot task and shouldn't be done with massive AWB runs. Fram (talk) 17:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, probably. But we have this mechanism already set up and I assumed Cewbot would deal with these as part of its normal activities. Happy to look at other options - maybe discuss on template talk? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what this is about, but if the OP is correct, it is totally absurd to edit 400,000 talk pages for a tweak. Discussing at a template talk page monitored by those focused on the template would simply hide the issue. Johnuniq (talk) 03:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Edits like these should always be bots, so they can be filtered from watchlists. There are numerous other editors who have recently engaged in the mass additional of categories to articles which I had to ask them to stop as my watchlist was flooded. GiantSnowman 13:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

• Is it just me or are talk pages like Template talk:WikiProject banner shell just perpetual WP:LOCALCONSENSUS issues where a very small number of editors (frequently 5 or less) make major changes that affect thousands of articles, all without involving the broader community through, at minimum, places like Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)? Silverseren 04:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
• @Fram, Tom.Reding, Kanashimi, and Primefac: I got AWB working again. If cewbot would take time for making the changes, and if this needs attention soon, then should I file a request for that particular bot task? —usernamekiran (talk) 06:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  The robot is in operation... Kanashimi (talk) 09:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  yay! —usernamekiran (talk) 16:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Meanwhile, the category has grown to over 800,000 pages. Perhaps next time an RfC to determine whether creating such a large cleanup task is warranted, would be better? Fram (talk) 16:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

User:Augmented Seventh

User:Augmented Seventh is making wholesale reverts of my edits in contravention to guidelines. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 19:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

You're removing demographic categories and templates by blanking them out; irreligion still deals with religion no matter your argument. That's definitely not compliant with WP:CAT and clearly vandalism. There's no action to take here except that you need to stop removing these categories and templates. Nate • (chatter) 19:42, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

And you are now required to cite how your edits meet WP:CAT; spamming it in edit summaries is not discussion. Nate • (chatter) 19:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

While doing routine vandal patrol, I came across what seemed to be a hasty and massive removal of content, being done in a very directed and personal manner.

After looking at the persistent removal, and communicating, I restored the well-drawn categories.

Hopefully, this is easily resolved.

Augmented Seventh (talk) 20:40, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

43*, do not continue to revert these category removals without discussing them first. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

THere is nothing to discuss. The guidelines are clear. What needs to be done is editors need to be familiar with the cat guidelines. We don't discuss whether the sky is blue do we? 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

THey are not well drawn, it was not hasty, it was not massive, and it was not "personal". It was directed because they all had the same issue. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:07, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Editors should not blindly revert. They should be required to understand the guideleines. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I gave up editing because there were too many problems that the wiki communtity is not sorting out. One of them is treating anon editors as second class wikicitizens.

Another problem is "this is how it is so we are going to leave it like this for years and years" and this is at the expense of the quality of WP.

I can't remember the specific category guideline for the edits I did but is the undoing editors need to look it up. Categorisation is something that a lot of editor do not understand. Go and put a notice on WikkiProoject Categorisation and you will fing that there is support for my edits.

WP could be sooo much better. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone" is an indication you should be trying to do better instead of telling us we should do the same. If you're not willing to actually explain why guidelines vindicate your changes, then being right sometimes isn't enough if you want to make things better. Communication is the process, not something ancillary to it. Remsense ‥ 论 02:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

GO and read the guidelines. It does not need discussion. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:15, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion is required when other editors ask you questions in good faith in order to resolve present disputes and prevent future ones. Remsense ‥ 论 02:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Bear in mind this is WP and not social media. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

How do you get the impression that "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone". 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

No. You brought this here. The WP:ONUS is on you to explain how the guidelines justify your edits, not to say "go look it up". Also How do you get the impression that "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone" - because that's exactly what you said. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not unreasonable in many cases to link to a very specific passage of a guideline and expect an editor to understand its meaning as regards a pertinent dispute, but you can't just fail to clearly articulate your argument while also insisting it's vindicated somewhere within the full text of a guideline. Remsense ‥ 论 02:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Content dispute. Bold edits were reverted; next step is discussion, probably at WT:CAT. If there is dispute over interpretation of the guideline you can consider leaving a pointer at WP:VPP. If there are any categories that shouldn't be used at all that can be discussed at WP:CFD. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 03:31, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The content dispute could have been discussed on any of the talk pages. Yet it was brought here first. Conyo14 (talk) 06:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

When a content dispute involves several pages it is often though not always best to centralize discussion. Misunderstanding ANIs purpose and bringing content disputes here is a common and understandable error; best just to point people at appropriate WP:DR when that happens. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 06:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Not overly impressed by 43's comments above. But do wish to note that their removal of Category:Corruption from at least one BLP appears to have been correct. The subsequent reversion of that removal is misfortune. Rotary Engine 08:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Unblock request of Rereiw82wi2j

Blocked, blocked, they're all blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The user Rereiw82wi2j was blocked for blanking talk page discussions. They were removing discussions they participated in with an now-vanished account, for the purpose of removing their username from the talk page(which isn't removed via a vanishing). I believe that per WP:VANISH their vanishing needs to be reversed, am I correct? Do they need to be asked to resume using that account?(if they can) 331dot (talk) 20:49, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

It seems to need reverting because with their previous account, they only edited one article/talk page and when asked what articles they wanted to edit with their new account, they just mention this same article. That violates the entire principle of a clean start account. Liz 23:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Could we revoke TPA per this? ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I have revoked their talk page access and declined the unblock request. PhilKnight (talk) 14:34, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

User has created another account Human82. Lavalizard101 (talk) 15:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Also now blocked. GiantSnowman 16:17, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

There's also User:ResearchAbility now. win8x (talk) 16:32, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Blocked by PhilKnight. GiantSnowman 16:36, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:ZanderAlbatraz1145 Civility and Content #2

• ZanderAlbatraz1145 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has engaged in a lengthy display of disruption. Namely through incessant incivility I have noticed they were previously reported for.

Instances such as ordering IP editors to stop editing articles, hostilely chastising them, making personal attacks in edit summary on several occasions, etc. Users such as @Waxworker: and @Jon698: can speak to their experiences, I'll outline mine.

On December 10, I noticed on the article Luca Guadagnino's unrealized projects page several additions were made that didn't adhere to the article's purpose. Zander restored these with an introductory summary rife with bad faith assertions about my intelligence and asserting they'd engage in edit war behavior. For the most part there was an attempt to discuss the issue we had, but ultimately did not see eye to eye. I asserted I'd be escalating the issue to garner more substantive dialogue around it, Zander's response includes a needless "bite me". I made some attempts at engaging the topic at the article's talk page, in addition to WikiProject Film, it was over a week that saw no input. I would go on to state that (at the time) in two days, I would restore the page to it's status quo. I would do so, asking it not to be reverted. Zander reverted anyway, and after another terse interaction, I moved to nominate the article for deletion, finding with the conflicting views of what Unrealized meant, it was too open ended and led to these lists being essentially trivia. Since then, Zander has elected to take an antagonistic approach towards me, making swipes they openly admit add nothing to the discussion threads they're added to, and now that I am putting said comments behind collapsable tables for being offtopic, Zander is now doing the editing equivalent of mockingly repeating me, with edits such as this and this.

This editor displays no interest in conducting themselves cordially or cooperatively on this website. Rusted AutoParts 23:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I've given them a warning for canvassing: - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:08, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

And more personal attacks here - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

And they appear to be continuing editing while ignoring here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

SPA User:Tikitorch2 back at it on Martin Kulldorff

Hi, all, I'd like some assistance with the SPA User:Tikitorch2, who's been POV pushing on the Martin Kulldorff article since June. A quick view of their extremely short edit history shows that their sole focus is on pushing a vaccine-denialist POV on that and similar COVID-related topics. Started out on the talk page and BLPN, but now they've graduated to edit-warring on the article itself; they were active in June, made a single related edit in October, but now they appear to be back at it. They've already been notified about the CTOP status of COVID-19, and have received an edit-warring warning--to which they were less than receptive. Would appreciate a more permanent resolution, either a COVID-19 topic ban or just an indef considering their SPA status, so they don't just go back into hibernation and then turn up again like a bad penny. (And yeah, given this context, I don't love the implications of the username "Tikitorch2", either.) Thanks, Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 05:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

User:Michael.C.Wright? 173.22.12.194 (talk) 06:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

 Looks like a duck to me. I'm sending this to SPI. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

SPI says unrelated, so might just be generic disruption. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

What are you implying with regard to my username? My edit history has been limited to trying to correct two red flags that stood out so much that I followed the citations when I was searching these scientists who were in the news for censorship. It has been enlightening learning how wikipedia selectively chooses secondary sources but discourages the use of primary sources to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible.

For my two attempted contributions to Misplaced Pages, the two red flags were pretty dramatic to prompt me to check out the citations--Sunetra Gupta's article implied more than 1 in 1000 people in England died from Covid in spring 2020 in an effort to discredit her, which was trivially easy to google as untrue. I corrected that without really changing the overall narrative. The article for Martin Kulldorff...I would probably not have spent time looking at the sources or realized how unscientific Kulldorff's critics were had there not been such superfluous "Wikivoice" editorializing and synthesizing suggesting Kulldorff lied in an essay to the public. Tikitorch2 (talk) 06:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Primary sources are not to be used for anything but simple facts about a subject. They absolutely are not to be used to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible because that is original research. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Not sure why you felt the need to repeat what I said. Maybe I am the sock puppeteer! Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

What I am implying is that such a username in the context of an account pushing COVID-denialist rhetoric that flies in the face of the sources and Misplaced Pages policy is not an accident. Anyway, this editor continues to be a drain of editor time and attention. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Ah an absurd, convoluted, and contrived personal attack. Assuming anyone but you knew tiki torches were present at a political event where someone was killed, why would I choose my username based on that? Tikitorches provide light, warmth, and keep the mosquitos away. I guess its not surprising an editor named writ keeper attacks the editor rather than effectively debating the subject of the edit. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Even if it was a personal attack, making one back isn't going to fly here. Knock it off. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

User:Tikitorch2, your edits are being examined at ANI. This is not a pleasant experience, I'll admit. So, it's best for you not to dig yourself into a hole. I know the instinct is to defend yourself but it doesn't help your situation to come out swinging. It's probably to your benefit to address any concerns that have been raised and say no more than that. Liz 04:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Persistent addition of unsourced content by 2601:243:CB00:7F10:0:0:0:0/64

Blocked for one month.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:52, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

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2601:243:CB00:7F10:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, hasn't responded to warnings, and continued after block expired. /64 has previously been blocked on December 8th for a week due to "Persistent unsourced genre changes", and 2 weeks on September 7th due to addition of unsourced content. Recent examples of addition of unsourced content: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Waxworker (talk) 10:22, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

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Disruptive editing Movement for Democracy

I've protected the page for 24 hours. @Rambling Rambler and @Hellenic Rebel are both warned against edit warring, including during the course of this discussion. RR, HR, and .82 should follow dispute resolution processes. Further disruptive editing or edit warring after page protection expires will result in blocks. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

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User:Hellenic Rebel has been trying for about a month now to put across his own opinion about the party' infobox. An opinion which he cannot back up with any source whatsoever. Although it has been pointed out to him by both the user Rambling Rambler and me, continues the disruptive editing. Ιt is worth noting that although other users made the same "mistake", when the lack of sources to support the addition was pointed out to them, they accepted it and did not continue to try to pass on their own opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Movement_for_Democracy_(Greece)#5/300

https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Greek_Rebel#Movement_for_Democracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Greek_Rebel#Disruptive_editing....again

diff1 diff2

diff3 130.43.66.82 (talk) 19:15, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

This is a content dispute, not a conduct dispute. Since discussing the issue on article talk has not worked, please follow dispute resolution processes, such as seeking guidance at WT:GREECE or WT:POLITICS, or going to WP:DRN. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

@Voorts taking a look because I've been tagged. While there may be content elements to it I think this has gone into a behavioural issue, namely due to it being a user actively edit warring without providing sources but instead endlessly insisting on edits that are entirely WP:OR. Rambling Rambler (talk) 20:00, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

It is not a problem of content but of behaviour. His claim is original research, is his own conclusion and is not verified by any source. He knows it, has admitted it, and yet he insists on adding it. 130.43.66.82 (talk) 20:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

(nac) Movement for Democracy is a moderately stable DAB page, with which I have been involved. I assume this dispute relates to Movement for Democracy (Greece). Narky Blert (talk) 20:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

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Sugar Bear returns with personal attacks

/24 blocked for two weeks. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

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• 166.181.224.0/19 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))
• Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Sugar Bear/Archive

Using the IP range Special:Contributions/166.181.224.0/19, Sugar Bear has returned to Misplaced Pages to disrupt film and music articles. After I recognized this fact and began reverting him, Sugar Bear began a campaign of personal attacks at my talk page, using the IP Special:Contributions/166.181.250.216. Can we get a rangeblock?

There's a decade-plus history of this vandal attacking me, for instance his creation of the username Banksternet. I can spot his contributions quite easily by now. Binksternet (talk) 22:35, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

.I've blocked the current IP, I may not have time to properly investigate the range right now. Acroterion (talk) 22:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Past disruption from nearby IPs includes the following:

• Special:Contributions/166.182.84.172 was blocked in 2018 and 2019.
• Special:Contributions/166.182.80.0/21 was blocked in 2018 for one month.
• Special:Contributions/166.181.254.122 was blocked in 2020, identifying Sugar Bear.
• Special:Contributions/166.181.253.26 was blocked twice in 2020 for personal attacks.
• Special:Contributions/166.182.0.0/16 was rangeblocked in 2023 for three years. Binksternet (talk) 22:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I've blocked the current /24 for two weeks, but I see a lot of potential for collateral damage for longer or broader blocks. Acroterion (talk) 22:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

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Comments by Locke Cole

No support for a block for either party, and filer is fine with closure. Star Mississippi 16:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

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Involved: Locke Cole (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) So I honestly think we should both receive a (24 hr) block for our behavior, but bringing it here for that to happen. This started when I posted a list of "keep" votes with no rationale at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2024 December 21. Comments made by Locke Cole in response to the list include:

• Sour grapes are over there, in case you're lost.

I replied to this with What?? Voting on an AfD should be policy-based, not just "keep" or "he's too notable". I'm giving evidence to my claim that keep votes were given unnecessarily large amounts of weight when closing this. Yes, I left out the ones with evidence, because that wasn't the point of the list. Again, would you give weight to the five keep votes that just said "keep"? I believe this is the second time I've had to say this to you, but way to WP:ABF.

• Well, you're already violating WP:DRVPURPOSE #8 by casting WP:ASPERSIONS about other editors. Carry on, I look forward to seeing you blocked for being an idiot.

And I replied to this one with Yes, I removed a comment after realizing it violated our aspersions policy. Do you have an issue with that? Feel free to take this to ANI if you want to continue, as it’s clogging up the DRV.

This user has a long history of behavioral blocks, including six civility blocks over a span of nine years. Since this behavior clearly won't be getting better, bringing it here. It's up to y'all to decide if a BOOMERANG should happen, if we should both be blocked, or only one party gets the hammer. :) E_F 02:41, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the cited comments are in themselves enough to justify a block. I also note that LC has recently suffered a personal loss. Speaking from experience, I can state that when in deep mourning we are not always at our best. That said, I find LC's block log disturbing.-Ad Orientem (talk) 02:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

While I do get that, and I do respect that and am deeply sorry that happened to them, this behavior has been going on since late 2005, and includes an arbitration request, hence why I brought it directly here. Calling me an "idiot" was 100% an NPA vio, and having a personal loss shouldn't excuse that (also speaking from experience with the loss of my mother from Cancer of unknown primary origin in 2014). This is a rare case where I'll say that a block log should give you an idea of whether this behavior will continue. E_F 02:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

bolding policies I've added at the end - I'll just note that every one of the "policies" you linked to (bar WP:ABF, where I'm pretty sure you wanted WP:AGF) goes to Misplaced Pages:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. Which is very useful and well-thought-out, and by all means should be used as a tool at AfD, but is not policy. It's an essay on policy. There's a difference. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:42, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay then, per that I've removed the list. The comments still stand though. E_F 03:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

• So the OP wants themselves and the other party to receive blocks for incivility? Why don't you just stop being rude to each other? Change your own behavior. Opening this discussion is just drawing attention to a few comments that otherwise would have likely been forgotten. I don't see how this post helps the situation at all. Just do better. And if Locke Cole comes to this discussion, I pray this doesn't devolve into bickering. Let's all just get back to editing productively and not taking shots at each other. Liz 05:23, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  I don’t know, maybe I just thought it’d continue and brought it here, likely too early. Is it possible to close this? E_F 13:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

From what I read from the DRV, it definitely seemed like it got heated, but it definitely seemed to cool down. Trouts for sure, but I don't see why blocks are necessary. As for you, given that you're asking to be punished, you seem to recognize what you did wrong, and you pledge to not continue this behavior. Just change your password for a day or a week and change it back later; I don't think admin intervention is necessarily warranted. guninvalid (talk) 11:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Though as actual admins above have mentioned, their block history is indeed concerning. guninvalid (talk) 11:50, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

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User talk:International Space Station0

Just officially closing this discussion as the account involved has been globally blocked. If an editor has Spore on your Watchlist and you see this occurring again, contact your local administrator. Liz 06:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

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This user made 500 edits to their user page which were all completely useless (Misplaced Pages:Gaming the system to inflate their edit count) and then once receiving extended-confirmed permissions vandalized Spore (2008 video game) by copypasting another article. Their user page shows them editing and counting to 500. jolielover♥talk 04:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

It's a WP:DUCK, and I just reported to AIV. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 04:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Would it be possible to put up some kind of filter to alert for this? Something that…say…catches when more than 25 edits are made in a single space (user space for example) or something that would trip if the edits added less than 5 characters consistently? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1011:B32F:11B9:7980:86CC:720C:8B57 (talk) 05:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

There is a filter for this. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:AbuseLog&wpSearchUser=International+Space+Station0&offset=20241222044736, "New account unusual activity" covers exactly this. win8x (talk) 05:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

• This account has been globally blocked as an LTA so it shouldn't be an issue. Liz 05:25, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  At what point is it appropriate to selectively delete their hundreds of edits of nonsense from the page history?

  Or is that just something that isn't done? – 2804:F1...A7:86CC (::/32) (talk) 05:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  If you are talking WP:SELDEL, there is rarely a good reason for it's use at present. If instead you mean WP:REVDEL see WP:CRD and WP:REVDELREQUEST. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 05:33, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  I've gone ahead and revdel'd the lot of them, as cut-and-pasting from other articles without proper attribution is copyvio and thus RD1able. Selective deletion (making the edits go away from the history) is probably not going to happen, if it's even technically possible for an article with almost *9500* revisions (I know I'm not going to try!). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

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POV IP editor and 2024 Kobani clashes

Blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

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This this IP address engages in BLP and POV pushing with things like this 1 and this 2, and then edit warring and then makes personal attacks like this 3, in a source documenting casualties for all of December instead of the specific date, and then when he is reverted by another editor respond with this. I believe this person is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia, and also the 2024 Kobani clashes article should potentially be given semi-protection status as it's part of the Syrian Civil War which has discretionary sanctions. Thanks. Des Vallee (talk) 05:34, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh also this. Des Vallee (talk) 05:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Blocked – for a period of 72 hours (User talk:88.243.192.169#Block) and pages protected El_C 13:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

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Promotional content about Elvenking (band)

There does not appear to be an actionable COI here, just an avid fan. Content issues can be handled through the appropriate channels. @Elvenlegions: please be mindful of musical notability and what Misplaced Pages is and isn't for. Star Mississippi 17:03, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

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I noticed a consistent addition of promotional content about an apparently unencyclopedic band, namely Elvenking (band), with articles being also dedicated to each band member (eg. Aydan Baston and Damnagoras) and their unsold discography, which also got a dedicated template ({{Elvenking}}). I also noticed a weird pattern by User:Elvenlegions, which appears to be either a very big fan or in conflict of interests, as well as other accounts apparently created just to support the band (eg. User:Neverbuilt2last). — Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 05:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I am indeed a big fan of the band and am trying to update the band's wikipedia information to make it as accurate as possible so people can learn about the band. I hope this helps support the band and also helps wikipedia readers and users who wish to learn more about the band. Elvenlegions (talk) 06:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

• If these musicians are not notable, you can always tag the articles CSD A7. Liz 07:42, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Understood, Elvenlegions, but Misplaced Pages is not a webhost or a promotional site. If the band, nor its members, nor its discography qualify as notable under the standards we set for musical notability, then the band's fans will have to learn about it elsewhere. Ravenswing 07:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

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Disruptive editor on When the Pawn...

User User:Longislandtea has repeatedly removed reliably sourced refs to the genres infobox by removing alternative pop simply because they don't believe it to be correct as the ref is "new" and that the artist isn't that genre. I had sent them two warnings now and also explained that's not how this works, so they decided to add more genres with refs that don't even mention the genres they included. I do not believe this editor is going to cooperate. Pillowdelight (talk) 08:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

User:Pillowdelight changed the genre list of When the Pawn... which originally had been a variation of certain genres: Art pop, jazz rock, art rock, alternative rock, jazz pop, chamber pop, all of which are somewhat accurate and agreed upon by various editors of this page over many years. It was changed to just Alt pop, a genre that is used to describe the newer sounds of pop in the early 2010s with Lorde, Sky Ferreira and Lana del rey. It is not a genre that fits the album hence it has never before user:Pillowdelight been described as such beyond what her poor source says, a Fiona Apple revisit (that is not even about When the pawn.. specifically) from a new, small and virtually unheard of web magazine. Sources such as Rateyourmusic, allmusic and Pitchfork are far more accurate and robust and that's why this album has never been described as alt pop. That genre did not exist at the time of the release of the album. The source needs to be accurate, it is not. It's not an album review, it is a fluff article about Fiona Apple by a small web magazine. It's not even about When the pawn... specifically, it makes no sense. I think the other editors agree, it is inaccurate.

Allmusic and pitchfork are far better sources. I have added both as sources. I didn't change the genre list, I simply changed it back to the genre list that had stood there the longest before user:Pillowdelight changed it a few months ago for the first time, having never touched this page before yet complaining about other editors. Longislandtea (talk) 18:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Longislandtea: I removed the genres because they're unsourced, which I stated in many edit summaries you keep reverting, as well as on your talk page. It doesn't matter that just because you believe a source another user added calling the album alternative pop is incorrect and unreliable because it's "new, small and virtually unheard of" is a ridiculously excuse. Read Template:Infobox album it states — genres must be stated and referenced in the body of the article; personal opinions or original research must not be included. The sources you have added specifically from Pitchfork don't state the genres you've listed. Pillowdelight (talk) 20:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Sources need to be legitimate and relevant. Your source is not relevant and it is disputed. Pitchfork is added because they describe the album as an alternative album several times in the review and the genre category is ROCK. What is alternative and rock? Alternative rock. That is how the album was marketed. You can't cherrypick a single article to make a case for a genre that the album absolutely is not in. I will remove the Pitchfork source, that's fine. There's numerous ones including from Allmusic that clearly state that it is an alternative rock album. The album was even added to Misplaced Pages's page for alt rock albums ages ago. This is very uncontroversial. Just having alternative rock is also lacking; jazz fusion, art pop (the album is already added on the wikipedia page for art pop albums) and art rock are accurate too and have been there for ages but alas! Let's get rid of it all to only serve your opinion. Numerous albums have unsourced genres might I add, but the vast of amount of editors agree to it because they know these accurately describe the album, these are the scenes that the album and artist comes from and sourcing for genres can often times be lacking. In that case, rather than trying to look for BAD sources, it's better to agree with the consensus. In our case, we do have sources. Rateyourmusic has been used as a source for adding art pop, alternative rock, jazz pop, fusion, art rock and chamber pop as genres before. Longislandtea (talk) 20:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Here's the page for what is considered acceptable sources Misplaced Pages:Acceptable sources (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs).

Relevance. Sources must be relevant--there must be some reason for the reader to care about what the author has to say. For example, the opinion of a random individual on the presidency of George W. Bush, as published in a letter to the editor of a major newspaper, is not relevant; and thus should not be included--even though it is published, traceable to its author, and given in a reputable publication. Relevance can be imputed several ways--through explicit personal knowledge, through subject-matter authority, through general notability of the author, through demonstrable correlation with the opinion(s) of a large group of people, etc.

A large group of people, the editors of When the Pawn...'s page throughout the years, thousands of people on music reviewing sites and numerous music journalists from legitimate publications do not agree with what this one article you cherrypicked states.

Note that this policy is the minimum standard for inclusion as a reference in Misplaced Pages. Sources may meet this standard and still not be authoritative, reliable, accurate, free from bias, or undisputed. Sources which meet this minimum standard but which fail to meet stricter standards may be used, but should be used with caution. In particular, such sources should be explicitly attributed to their author(s) or publisher(s) in an article's prose (rather than being presented as fact with the author only given in the notes), and disputes considering the source's veracity should be described.

Meaning you can't just add any genre because some random source says it when it goes against larger and more reliable sources as well as it is controversial.

Thank you and please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand. Longislandtea (talk) 21:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTVAND. Note that accusing editors of vandalism when they are not, in fact, vandalising can be considered a personal attack, so I'd suggest you strike that comment. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I strike. Longislandtea (talk) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

You didn't actually strike any comments. To do so, do this <s>Comment</s> which will make it look like this Comment. Liz 22:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand. Longislandtea (talk) 22:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Longislandtea: How is the source considered not relevant and where was this dispute? AllMusic does not call the album alternative rock at all within its article. Rate Your Music is also not a source it's user generated which is against Misplaced Pages. I really wish an admin would comment on this because this is getting absolutely nowhere. Pillowdelight (talk) 21:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Here's another source describing it as an alternative rock and jazz fusion album

https://www.the-solute.com/the-solute-record-club-fiona-apple-when-the-pawn/

Alt pop is not accurate. If you're so adamant about alt pop, please argue why. It is completely inaccurate and you have one singular source over music journalists and music sites. Allmusic does categorize it as alternative rock, Pitchfork has categorized it as rock since 1999 of its release. There was NO Alt-pop at the time. It still isn't. These are different genres. Art pop is not Alt pop. You edited the page one time in October 2024 only to get rid of the genre list that editors agreed upon to add Alt pop which makes no sense whatsoever. Longislandtea (talk) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I have now added a new source to the genre list. If you have any problems with the new source, tell me. But it's much more accurate this way. It's still sad to see the whole genre list that was originally there, so much more descriptive and fitting, hacked away but oh well. Longislandtea (talk) 21:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Pitchfork's categorizations mean basically nothing. They have ten categories, one of which is "Pop/R&B", and another of which is "Global". By the way, you should just stop caring about this, because sources misclassify genres of music chronically and everywhere you look. Take your passion to RateYourMusic. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

All of this discussion should be taking place on the article's talk page (which neither editor has used). Schazjmd (talk) 21:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Schazjmd: I'm awaiting for an admin to respond. This conversation is getting nowhere hence the reason why I brought it here in the first place. I've tried to explain to the user on their talk page along with this entire thread and it's getting nowhere. @The Bushranger: you left a comment but could you please share your opinion on the dispute? Or possibly ping an admin who's familiar with music if this isn't your area of familiarity? Pillowdelight (talk) 21:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

There was no reason to bring this conversation here. I talked to you directly but go no real reply or any arguments despite adding sources and explaining why it's not an Alt pop album. I've explained to you well enough. Please stop trying to get admins to ban me simply because I (and other editors) recognize that the genre list that you got rid of was far more fitting. There's a new genre list now with sources but it is not Alt-pop. The album was already added to the wikipedia album pages for Alternative rock and art pop. I'm familiar with these genres and Fiona Apple specifically to know that it's accurate hence why the genre list has been that way for years. If you're adamant about sources, there is a source. Accusing me of not sourcing should be considered a false accusation at this point. Not all sources are equal either and I've tried explaining that to you. Longislandtea (talk) 21:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Pillowdelight, you were given good advice which is to have this discussion on the article talk page which neither editor has posted at yet. This is a content dispute. If no action has been taken yet by an administrator, it's likely because they don't agree with your statement that action needs to be taken. Liz 22:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay, will do. Thank you Liz. Pillowdelight (talk) 22:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Irrelevant sources and unnecessary changes to genre list on When the Pawn... (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

On October 22 2024, User:Pillowdelight (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) changed the genre list that has stood in place for years and has been a variation of the same variety of genres: Art pop, art rock, jazz, alternative rock, jazz rock, chamber pop and jazz pop. Across the biggest music sites, this is what the album is described as. The user changed it to Alt pop using a single irrelevant and unreliable source. The album is not described as such anywhere else. The user is going against the general consensus. Sources have now been added to the genre list and I don't feel as though that would mean I'm breaking any rules. The user is threatening to get another editor banned because they're uncooperative with how us other editors feel the genre list should look like. It's an album that has been categorized as rock by Pitchfork at the time of its release and was added to rock charts when released too. Here's how the genre list has looked over a long period of time, without much controversy from editors not readers: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1178937091 from 2023

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1049316366 from 2021

Thank you. Longislandtea (talk) 19:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Why do people have to argue about what genre music is rather than just listening to it, and hopefully enjoying it? Phil Bridger (talk) 19:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

The genre list was fine and accurate and uncontroversial until this user decided to remove the entire thing. It's important that the genre list is accurate. People find albums through genres. There's other reasons as well. Longislandtea (talk) 20:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

This is neither here nor there, but I thought albums are generally sorted in alphabetical order by band name or the musician's last name.

Please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or my information is incomplete. Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 22:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I was trying to explain the important of listing genres accurately. If you go to a record store then yes, albums are listed in alphabetical order. But they're still put in categories of genres. Longislandtea (talk) 22:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

If we were going to list musical genres "accurately," we wouldn't bother at all. Except in very broad strokes ("rock," "punk," "Baroque," etc), so many of these horribly subjective "genres" are made up by bored media writers and bands that hate the notion of being The Same As Everyone Else. Get ten people to listen to ten different tracks of heavy metal, and you won't get as many as a third of them agreeing on any of them on the doom/grudge/dark/death/Goth/Viking/sludge/*-grind/*-core/etc etc etc spectrum. Beyond that, arguing whether any given artist is "that genre" is very highly subjective. (Hell, I've sung Baroque, classical, folk, rock, ethnic, shape note, so many genres I can't readily count.) Ravenswing 15:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Bunch of racist IPs/account

Sent packing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

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Article: Anti-Turkish sentiment

• GREEKMASTER7281 (talk · contribs)
• 112.202.57.150 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 186.154.62.233 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Beshogur (talk) 13:53, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Named account indeffed, IPs blocked for 72 hours each. GiantSnowman 14:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Urgent need for page protection on BLP

Protection applies. Appears admin eyes are on the Talk page. Star Mississippi 19:53, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There is currently a content dispute going on at Kay Granger involving allegations of a mental health crisis with mulitple IPs involved in a dispute over wether the information is reliable or not. A discussion is underway on the article's talkpage, but in the meantime there is revert warring taking place on the article. The page could really benefit from temporary semi protection. -- Lenny Marks (talk) 18:46, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Looks like User:Schwede66 got it. DMacks (talk) 19:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@DMacks: Thanks! Yeah. I assume they will also need a third-party closer given the heated nature of the argument. -- Lenny Marks (talk) 19:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Multiple users breaking 3RR on Gilman School article

Two users are actively engaged in an ongoing edit war on Gilman School, with both Counterfeit_Purses (talk · contribs · logs · block log) breaking 3RR 1, 2, 3, 4 and Statistical_Infighting (talk · contribs · logs · block log) being right at 3 Reverts 1, 2, 3.

This seems to go back to December 9th, with the first editor (Counterfeit) removing it here and here, again on the 17th, 18th, and then being at the above today.

Awshort (talk)

• E/C applied. Star Mississippi 19:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Counterfeit Purses, please be aware that the Luigi Mangione article was kept in a recent Articles for Deletion debate, so the consensus of the community is that he is notable. Edit warring to keep his name off the alumni list is a really bad idea. Cullen328 (talk) 20:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Cullen328 No problem, I've already given up. I would argue that WP:NOTNEWS applies here, but there's no sense in pushing against the tide. If you're content to have the lede section of Gilman School include "prominent graduates including "alleged murderer Luigi Mangione", I guess that's fine. It seems to be an unusual thing to include and an obvious case of undue weight given to something that is in the news at the moment. Perhaps someone should start a Wikiproject to add famous murderers to the ledes of other schools? Counterfeit Purses (talk) 22:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Counterfeit Purses, in my view, WP:NOTNEWS is among our most misunderstood policy documents. It begins In principle, all Misplaced Pages articles should contain up-to-date information. Editors are also encouraged to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events. I believe that Mangione is notable, the evolving article is acceptable, and his name belongs in the alumni list. Many, many "bad people" are listed as alumni in countless school articles, and it is not at all unusual. The only unusual thing here is that the lead of this particular school article lists alumni, and so I have removed them from the lead. Cullen328 (talk) 01:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad that misunderstanding WP:NOTNEWS is so common because I am going to continue to misunderstand it. I see that Liz removed Luigi Mangione from the lede before you removed the rest of the list. Acknowledging again that I have given up hope that Mangione will be removed from this article, let me ask you what you think the purpose of these alumni lists is? Including Mangione is an editorial decision. We don't include all notable alumni in these lists, so why should we include Mangione, and why now? It's too soon to know if he will have lasting relevance. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 04:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

We don't include all notable alumni in these lists Why not? If someone is Wikinotable and went to a Wikinotable school, then they belong in the "Notable alumni" section of that school's page, Q.E.D. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

@The Bushranger I'm not saying "we shouldn't", I'm saying "we don't". We don't include every notable alumnus in these lists, nor should we because it would lead to long, unhelpful lists stuck in the middle of articles about the schools. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 04:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

If an alumni list bloats an article, it can be split out. See Category:Lists of people by school affiliation. 11:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC) (Oops, signing) Narky Blert (talk) 16:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Of course that's always an option, but what I am saying is that it isn't desirable to have every alumnus listed in an article for a school. Ideally, it would be a selection of alumni who have made significant achievements in their field. Otherwise, it's just trivia. Am I wrong? Counterfeit Purses (talk) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. You're making a value judgment that some alumni (with articles, else they most definitely should not be included) are more notable than others. That is WP:OR. Narky Blert (talk) 20:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's called editorial judgment. Just like deciding not to include every known fact about something in an article. At some point, it is just trivia. Misplaced Pages is not a database. That info would probably be welcome over on Wikidata, which is a database. Alternatively, someone could just add Category:Gilman School alumni (in this case). Counterfeit Purses (talk) 20:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

And a new user, who doesn't understand categories and has no idea Wikidata exists, is relying on the list on the page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Persistent addition of unsourced content by 2600:480A:4A72:6000:0:0:0:0/64, yet again

Genre warrior sent packing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

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2600:480A:4A72:6000:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, hasn't responded to warnings, and continued the same behaviour immediately following the end of a 3 month block. See block log and the two previous ANI threads from September (1, 2) related to this /64. Recent examples of addition of unsourced content: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Waxworker (talk) 20:33, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I see the genre warriors are out today. Don't you realise how childish you are? (Not you, Waxworker.) Phil Bridger (talk) 20:37, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I thought I was the only one who noticed how many were running rampant today. So exhausting. . . Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 20:45, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

/64 blocked for six months. Acroterion (talk) 22:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

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User:NoahBWill2002

NOTHERE blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

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• NoahBWill2002 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

It looks like there's a pretty severe competence is required issue with this user. Virtually every one of their edits has had to be reverted either for adding copyrighted content/derivative works, adding their own art to Fan art (and then doing it again after being warned), or adding personal opinion to articles. Lastly this comment is quite inappropriate and indicates that they're unlikely to learn from any of this.
(As an aside, I just blocked them on Commons for uploading non-free files after warnings (and having copyright/the issue with their uploads explained them in detail) and uploading out-of-scope files after warnings.)
I think admin action is warranted here. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 22:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I 100% agree with The Squirrel Conspiracy on this. User:NoahBWill2002 appears completely unable to comprehend and/or follow some of the core rules of Misplaced Pages, especially WP:COPYVIO and WP:NPOV, despite multiple editors trying to help them understand. The comment that Squirrel Conspiracy highlighted, followed by a series of blatant copyright violations, makes it abundantly clear that this editor is not going to change and is not here to build an encyclopedia. Opolito (talk) 22:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

They have only had an account for a few days. It's seems rather soon to proclaim they are "not going to change". The images they were trying to add have been deleted from the Commons, let's see if they can find other ways to contribute to the project now that they can't promote their artwork here. Liz 23:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Given this comment, I'm not sanguine about their intention to contribute productively. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

They added this grossly inappropriate religious screed to Babylon on their third day of editing, then they responded to a warning about it with more proselytizing. I had hoped they would get the message but just today they made this non-NPOV edit apparently based on their religious beliefs. Apart from religious edits, apparently the only other thing they've done is add self-produced fan art to a variety of articles. I'm willing to AGF while they learn what are acceptable edits here but I'd like to see some acknowledgement from them that they understand why all their edits so far have been unacceptable. (It would also show good faith if they would clean up the now-broken links in numerous articles now that their fan art has been deleted from Commons, rather than leaving it for other editors to do.) CodeTalker (talk) 00:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked NoahBWill2002 as not here to build an encyclopedia. Cullen328 (talk) 01:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vandal encounter

This IP seems to be a vandal who seems to be ready to start an edit war. I have reverted their disruptive edits, and they have begun to add them back.

diffs:

I would have put this at AIV, but I have no clue how to edit source. Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 23:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done - Not an admin - I hate to be that person but unfortunately you've not sufficiently warned them, They've only received one warning and their edits aren't gross vandalism so this would only be declined by an admin anyway, If they continue I'll report them to AIV, Thanks, –Davey2010 23:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thank you! This has been noted for the future. Thank you, again! Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 23:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

You're welcome, Happy editing, Thanks, –Davey2010 23:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

User:GDJackAttack1 mass-creating articles for non-notable or nonexistent places

GDJackAttack1 has agreed to no further creation of the problematic articles. Extant ones being handled via usual channels. No further action needed here. Star Mississippi 02:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

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GDJackAttack1 (talk · contribs) has been mass-creating stub articles for places such as insignificant residential subdivisions and other localities in Alabama and Maryland (example), islands in the Bahamas and Senegal (example), and other insignificant highways and airports around the world. None of these articles are sourced by anything that verifies notability, just databases and maps, which has resulted in at least one article being pointed out as a map misreading and therefore nonexistent community at this AfD. I can only speculate how many more of these places do not exist and if any of them are phantom settlements.

There are too many of these articles to send through AfD or PROD manually and there is really no point in draftifying them or converting the articles into redirects since we have little proof that these topics are notable or even exist at all. Their talk page consists of nothing but notices of their articles being moved to the draftspace, AfD/PROD notices, and messages informing them to be more careful about article creation, yet they have seemingly ignored these messages and have persisted with spamming these stub articles for no clear reason. Waddles 🗩 🖉 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I will stop creating these articles. GDJackAttack1 (talk) 01:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I tagged one as CSD A7 to see if that would work. Bgsu98 (Talk) 01:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: Thank you, I also considered PROD-ing them all but I noticed you have so already. Waddles 🗩 🖉 02:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I think I got all of the ones that that Maryland batch, but I’m sure there are more. Bgsu98 (Talk) 02:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Glenn103

Glenn103 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been mass creating unsourced stubs about Cyrillic letters, most of which have been draftified. They've also disruptively edited in the past, such as: ''']''' (talk • contribs) 01:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Most of these pages don't even make any sense (eg.: Draft:Yery with tilde). The user also ignores any notice about his articles being moved to draftspace by simply recreating duplicates of them (eg.: Draft:Tse with caron & Tse with caron). Immediate action may be needed. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 07:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Given a uw-create4im with directions to come here, let's see what happens. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

They've continued editing, this time adding infoboxes to the articles, so I don't think the warning worked... ''']''' (talk • contribs) 08:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I have blocked them from article space and page moves, and will leave note on talk page to come here. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 15:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, this almost feels like trolling. Their basic procedure seems to be: pick a random Cyrillic letter. Combine it with a random diacritic. Write a short stub on the combination, saying effectively "this letter combination is not used anywhere." The occasional historical mentions ("this combination was used in such-and-such obscure Siberian language") are completely unsourced, of course. (Everything is unsourced.) Oddwood (talk) 04:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Excuse me for detracting from the report, but this was your 4th edit, your last edit was in January 2016... how have you found yourself here of all places?

I mean you might have a point, but wow. – 2804:F1...57:88CF (::/32) (talk) 04:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Similar behavior to PickleMan500 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) and other socks puppeted by Abrown1019 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki), which also made tons of drafts on Cyrillic characters that cited few sources (and none with in-depth coverage). Most drafts have been WP:G5'd, of course, so only those with admin perms can verify the deleted contribs. Since these socks have been banned (WP:3X), I haven't notified them of this discussion. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 17:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

TPA for 83.106.86.95

Done. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

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83.106.86.95 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Could someone revoke TPA for blocked IP, based on ? LizardJr8 (talk) 02:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Done and revdel'ed, thanks to JJMC89. LizardJr8 (talk) 02:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can you please help?

William Swainson got moved from William John Swainson (because his middle name might not be John). But the talk page for this person is at Talk:William John Swainson, and the talk page for the disambiguation page is at Talk:William Swainson. I don't know what happened to the disambiguation page, and I don't know how to fix this. Oholiba (talk) 02:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

 Done Couldn't be moved because the target page had to be deleted; its now fixed. As a note for the future, WP:AN would be a better place for this, since it isn't an 'incident'. That said - was there a dab page at William Swainson before? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for resolving this. As to the place for this, at some point I was told that "if you're a new user you have no reason to post at WP:AN" or something similar. I appreciate the help. Oholiba (talk) 05:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think that the disambiguation page's revisions were merged into the history of the moved page, if I'm reading Special:Log/Shyamal correctly.

@Shyamal, can you confirm what happened/fix this? – 2804:F1...60:4C25 (::/32) (talk) 02:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Actually, WAS that the intention (merging the histories)? I have no idea how this works.

Maybe The Bushranger already did all that needed to be done. – 2804:F1...60:4C25 (::/32) (talk) 02:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

(edited): There was a dab page with two entries. It is now a redirect from William Swainson to William John Swainson and the direction is now different. The full histories are (merged) restored and visible. PS: I have added a hat-note to the one other (far less notable) lawyer - William Swainson (lawyer) - if there are many more entries to be dealt with then the (currently a redirect) page at William_Swainson_(disambiguation) could be reinstated/used. Shyamal (talk) 02:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

(nac) An intitle search turned up no other William Swainson, so I've tagged William Swainson (disambiguation) (which has no significant history) for speedying under WP:G14. Narky Blert (talk) 06:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

POVPushingTheTruth

The truth may set you free, but WP:THETRUTH will get you blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:POVPushingTheTruth is clearly NOTHERE. C F A 05:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Blocked. -- Euryalus (talk)| — Preceding undated comment added 05:09, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

North Korean involvement in Russian-Ukraine war discussion

The inclusion of North Korea as a belligerent in the infobox for the "Russian invasion of Ukraine" article has been a point of extensive and protracted discussion since September. A formal Request for Comment (RfC) on this matter ran for several weeks and was closed with a clear consensus to include North Korea as a combatant based on reliable sources and expert analysis. However, despite the closure, the discussion has continued unabated across multiple threads, with certain editors repeatedly rehashing resolved points and questioning the validity of reliable sources, leading to significant disruption.

Key Points:

1. Prolonged Discussions and RfC Closure:
   • The RfC on North Korea's inclusion was conducted thoroughly, with a wide range of arguments presented by both sides.
   • The closing administrator, S Marshall, determined there was a clear consensus to include North Korea as a belligerent based on reliable sources and the strength of arguments.
   • The close explicitly allowed for reevaluation if new battlefield events or sources emerged, but no substantial new evidence has invalidated the prior consensus.
2. Ongoing Disruption:
   • Despite the RfC's resolution, the same arguments are being repeated across multiple threads, often by the same editors.
   • This behavior includes undermining reliable sources, misrepresenting their content, and insisting on a higher standard of verification (e.g., requiring firsthand evidence of North Korean combat, which is unreasonable given the context).
3. Reliable Sources Confirming North Korean Involvement:
   • Multiple reputable outlets, including the BBC, Reuters, and Pentagon statements, confirm North Korean military involvement and casualties in the conflict.
   • Experts from institutions like Chatham House and RUSI have explicitly stated North Korea's role in combat, aligning with the community's decision.
4. Impact on the Community:
   • The continued disruption consumes editor time and resources, detracting from the article's improvement.
   • These actions disregard Misplaced Pages's consensus-building principles and guidelines for resolving disputes. This dispute has been ongoing for months, with multiple threads being opened and closed on the same topic.

Request for Administrative Action:

I respectfully request that administrators address the following issues:

1. Enforce the consensus reached in the closed RfC, as no new evidence significantly alters the previous conclusions.
2. Discourage editors from rehashing resolved discussions, particularly when arguments have been repeatedly addressed and dismissed.
3. Consider imposing a topic ban or other appropriate measures on editors who persist in disrupting the article with repetitive or bad-faith arguments.

This matter has been discussed exhaustively, and it is essential to prioritize Misplaced Pages's goals of maintaining a high-quality, well-sourced, and consensus-driven encyclopedia. Thank you for your attention to this matter. UPDATE: I just noticed that North Korea was removed as a belligerent and added to the 'supported by' section, completely violating the consensus. Rc2barrington (talk) 08:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Since this report isn't really about an incident and your request is directed towards admins, I think this complaint would be better placed at WP:AN rather than ANI. It will also need more specifics, which articles, which edits, which editors. You'll need to provide that. I also question whether or not these are content standards that the community can't handle on their own. Liz 09:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I was going to post it at WP:AN but it said: "This noticeboard is for issues affecting administrators generally – announcements, notifications, information, and other matters of general administrator interest.

If your post is about a specific problem you have (a dispute, user, help request, or other narrow issue needing an administrator), you should post it at the Administrators' noticeboard for incidents (ANI) instead. Thank you."

I posted it on ANI beecause my specific problem was this dispute Rc2barrington (talk) 12:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The original post in this thread appears to resemble LLM output. GPTzero confirms this impression, rating text as "99% probability AI generated". Using AI to generate ANI submissions is highly inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 18:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Even when a message appears to be AI-generated, I think it is worth considering whether or not it is pointing out an actual problem. I think editors might be ignoring the results of an RFC, I just don't think asking for administrators to monitor a subject area, without identifying specific articles, is a feasible solution. It does seem like, possibly, a point that could come up in a complaint at AE regarding the Ukraine CTOP area. Liz 19:55, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I had a peek and it's a messy RfC and, as is generally the case with a messy RfC had a very involved closure message which seems to reflect that the closer felt constrained by the framing of the RfC. I didn't see any immediate indication in the edit history that anyone had tried to implement the RfC result and been rebuffed (although I might have missed it). So there's some smoke here but, I think, not a ton of fire. Simonm223 (talk) 20:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Liz, I don't disagree but I'm not at all convinced that use of AI is a positive contribution to CTOP areas. Axad12 (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

It was written with AI assistance. Not all AI. ai detectors aren’t considered reliable, because you can put the U.S. constitution through one and it says 100% AI generated. Regardless, whether it’s AI or not has nothing to do with the topic. It’s just that there’a been so many discussions and when I checked the info box it said ‘supported by”, violating the consensus of the RFC Rc2barrington (talk) 12:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I think the underlying issue here is that if you use AI to generate text which looks like obvious AI output then readers will wonder "does the end user even have sufficient English to understand what the AI has generated for them?" and "did the end user understand the material prior to deciding to employ AI?". Thus if a user is fluent in English, as you obviously are, it will always be better to communicate in your own voice.

At the end of the day, a user making a valid point in their own voice is generally speaking going to be taken more seriously than a user employing LLM output.

There are plenty of other reasons for users not to employ AI (see the recent thread here for extensive coverage) but the argument above seems like a good practical reason for fluent English speakers to always prefer using their own voice.

You will see from the recent thread that many users here are vehemently against AI use. Axad12 (talk) 15:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I understood the material very well, its not like I just used 100% AI out of nowhere. I know the context. I have been involved in this discussion since September. Rc2barrington (talk) 16:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

It's a respect thing. It's disrespectful of other editors to make them read chatbot output rather than your words. Simonm223 (talk) 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Dispute Over Edits and Use of British Raj Sources

Content dispute.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Hello,

I’m seeking administrator input regarding a dispute with @Ratnahastin over the content in the the "Kamaria Ahir" article. The editor removed significant content, citing User:Sitush/CasteSources as justification. Here are my concerns:

1. Misapplication of Policy:

Sitush’s essays are not official Misplaced Pages policy. Content decisions should follow WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and WP:VERIFIABILITY.

2. Dismissal of Reliable Sources:

The removed content was based on British Raj-era sources, which are neutral and historically significant. The editor claims these are unreliable without specific evidence or discussion on the article’s talk page.

3. Unilateral Edits and Dismissive Behavior:

Despite my attempts to discuss the matter constructively, the editor dismissed my concerns as "AI-generated" and warned me about sanctions under WP:GSCASTE and WP:ARBIPA, discouraging collaboration.Check here for the warning

Evidence:

Diff of my original version

Diff of their first edit

Diff of their second edit

Ratnahastin talk page

Request for Administrative Action:

1. Review the removed content and the editor’s justification.

2. Ensure that disputes are discussed on the article’s talk page.

3. Address the editor’s dismissive tone to foster collaboration.

4. Prevent further disruptive edits/vandalism by IP editors (which hasn't happened yet) And from Autoconfirmed users(e.g. @GrilledSeatJet , -Their Diff) and even from Extended Autoconfirmed users(@Ratnahastin) by banning such editors and putting an extended protection on the Article which I have once put request (please find it here) for but it got denied and now the results are as follows.

Thank you for your time and attention. I’m happy to provide further information if needed.

---

Best Regards

--- Nlkyair012 (talk) 10:47, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nothing to say about me really bot

Locked (non-admin closure). C F A 13:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

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• WilhelminaBlosse (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Please delete the user page, block the bot and report to stewards for a global block, as per m:NTSAMR. Thank you! 81.2.123.64 (talk) 11:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Concern About a New Contributor

Kriji Sehamati (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Dear Wikipedians,

I hope you’re doing well. I wanted to inform you about a new contributor @Kriji Sehamati, despite lacking experience, has repeatedly attempted to vandalize multiple articles. These articles were properly aligned with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines and reviewed by experienced contributors, but he/she seemed unwilling to understand or respect their adherence to the policies.

I believe your experience could help address this situation effectively.

Looking forward to your advice on how to proceed.

Thankyou! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 15:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

"Vandalize" is a very loaded word here with a specific meaning. As far as I can tell, what they've done is nominate 4 articles for deletion, and your response has been to accuse them of vandalism, ignoring dispute resolution procedures and making personal attacks – none of which I can see at a glance through their contributions.

Perhaps if you supplied evidence of this behaviour, someone would be able to help? If your issue is that they've nominated 4 articles of which you are a major contributor and are doing so by going through your contributions in order to find articles to nominate for deletion with specious reasons, then this board would be the place to come. If not, then making your arguments for keeping the articles on the AfDs in question would be your best bet.

By the way is forum shopping. Stop that. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

(ec) This is an odd one. As S-Aura failed to provide diffs, I looked at Kriji Sehamati's contribution history. New account (9 Dec) began editing today, created two drafts and made a bunch of edits to those. Then began adding COI tags to articles S-Aura wrote, nominated those articles for deletion, and then left a possible UPE template on S-Aura's talk page. Really seems to be something weird going on here between those two. (In addition to opening this ANI thread, S-Aura asked for help with basically the same message on the talk pages of Ipigott, Ryan shell, CFA, and BusterD, and S-Aura opened same complaint at AN.) Schazjmd (talk) 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I am concerned that User:Kriji_Sehamati’s actions, including unjustified deletion nominations and spamming, are disruptive and violate Misplaced Pages’s guidelines.

She seems to lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related WP:GNG and WP:NPOL. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 16:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

You were asked to provide diffs. You did, almost, here but then reverted yourself. Those diffs (well, the ones before those diffs) are just the other user nominating articles for deletion (which is allowed) or tagging them for what they believe to be conflict of interest edits (which is also allowed).

Please provide some actual evidence that the other user is engaging in chronic, intractable behaviour, rather than just not editing how you would like them to. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Here are some diffs highlighting her problematic edits. However, I believe that many of her contributions may be in violation of Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. It appears she has specifically targeted me and added the COI tag multiple times to the same page. I would appreciate it if you could review her actions more thoroughly:

•

•

•

•

and many more

Thankyou! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 17:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

We wouldn't generally treat an AfD as vandalism. Simonm223 (talk) 17:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I understand your point about AfDs not generally being treated as vandalism. However, I noticed that the major contribution history of the user seems suspicious. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 17:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Not from where anybody else is standing so far. I get that you're upset to have four articles of yours nominated for deletion, and if you have any evidence at all that you are being deliberately targeted by the other editor, then people will very much act on that. Please provide it. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 17:58, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I am here to contribute and edit articles in accordance with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. However, today a new user targeted me and falsely blamed me for actions that are not accurate. I believe this is unfair and not in line with the collaborative nature of the platform. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Please provide evidence of this. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 18:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Please check! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The articles that have been nominated for deletion discussion have been reviewed by experienced contributors. These discussions involve articles about judges and lawyers, under WP:NPOL, a valid criterion according to Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. Therefore, the deletion decision was made after carefully reviewing these articles. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Honestly it looks like this user, rightly or wrongly, believes you have a conflict of interest and are acting on the basis of that assumption. I would suggest, if you don't have a CoI, talking to them about this and maybe asking why they've come to this conclusion. Simonm223 (talk) 18:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

They have just started targeting my contributions, and I tried to inform her about the situation. However, she is acting as if she knows everything about Misplaced Pages and is dismissing my concerns. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

@Kriji Sehamati: hasn't edited since their AfD spree earlier today, let's wait and see what their response here is when they return to editing. Schazjmd (talk) 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

• We need to stop focusing on the OP's calling this vandalism; it is not. I've changed the header to reflect that. That said, the new user's edits are problematic and merit scrutiny. As for the UPE stuff, I've removed that post from the OP's Talk page; it's nonsensical coming from a new user and does not merit a response.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
• It is, of course, not vandalism to nominate articles for AFD discussions as long as a legitimate deletion rationale is provided and the article hasn't just been discussed at a recent AFD. However, I don't think it's a good sign when a brand new editor claims to understand all of Misplaced Pages policies and whose first actions are to nominate articles at AFDs. They are almost never an actual new editor, especially when they know how to even set up an AFD or are familiar with using Twinkle on their first day of editing. Liz 19:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

  It seems that she is not new to Misplaced Pages and might be operating multiple accounts. It appears she has an issue with one of my contributions, as she created her account just 15 days ago, yet she already has a good understanding of tools like Twinkle and AfD procedures. This level of familiarity suggests prior experience on the platform. I am now requesting her account to be blocked as I am completely disturbed by her repeated allegations and disruptive behavior. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 11:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  I am now genuinely confused—if all my contributions are not good, then why am I even here? Were the experienced editors who reviewed and approved these pages also mistaken? A newcomer, who joined just recently, is now disrupting and questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors. This situation is deeply discouraging. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 11:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  Please resolve this situation—either block her for her disruptive behavior. How can i continue working under such constant targeting and stress ? 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 12:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  User:S-Aura, you seem to be making unsupported personal attacks against User:Kriji Sehamati. You should provide specific evidence of wrongdoing, including diffs, or your arguments here will fall on deaf ears (and bring consequences for you). Meanwhile, as a filer on ANI, you have brought all your own edits to close scrutiny by the community. You may have to face that smart people disagree, and this is how we sort disagreements out on English Misplaced Pages. You are not required to edit, but we encourage you to do so. Nobody is going to block Kriji Sehamati at this point, because you've given us no reason to do so. BusterD (talk) 12:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  Meanwhile, in the last few minutes S-Aura has disruptively created a second thread about this exact issue on this same board, which was reverted by another editor. This is intentional disruption. BusterD (talk) 12:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  As to the question "Why am I here?", poets and artists have been trying to answer this question for eons. Epistemology is outside the scope of this board, but there are articles about it. Show up to edit if you want to, but expect disagreement from time to time. (That's actually a sound answer to any epistemology question as well.) BusterD (talk) 12:16, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  Dear @BusterD,

  It means I have been proven wrong, and that user’s contributions have been more focused on me, which is quite insufficient to catch someone’s lie that she is pretending to be new, when in fact she is old.

  Also, I am not against AfD; I am simply expressing my opinion. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:12, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  Could you please rephrase your point here? I don't understand. While it's okay to be suspicious that this editor is somehow socking or doing something else deceptive due to the familiarity, it seems unacceptable to deliberately accuse them of such repeatedly without firmer evidence. Remsense ‥ 论 13:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  Dear @Remsense,

  I am not engaged in paid activities on Misplaced Pages, and she claimed that I am connected with the subject, who is a judge, lawyer, etc. You all should understand that this is not a trivial matter; justice is a very respected position. Making such allegations can escalate court cases. I would like to remind you of the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI case. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  One thing you need to understand immediately is you should never make another post that sounds vaguely like a legal threat, as you've just done above. Seriously. That intonation is seriously not helping us decide who's right or wrong here. Remsense ‥ 论 13:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  Okay! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  I will caution you that this is tiptoeing right up to the edge of WP:NLT and you'd be advised to avoid making legal threats. Simonm223 (talk) 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  Dear @Simonm223,

  I am merely showing that she can potentially do something inappropriate. I am following the guidelines and not making any legal threats. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  Accusing another editor of potentially making legal threats is not much better, when there is no concrete evidence that they would do so. Being interested in articles about judges does not suffice. Remsense ‥ 论 13:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  The page of Justice Subramonium Prasad, who had conducted over the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI court hearing, was also created by me. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  State plainly what the implication you are making here is, because what I'm hearing is "I'm familiar with people who have hit Misplaced Pages with a mallet in court before, and I can make sure it happens again". Remsense ‥ 论 13:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  This is becoming a rabbit hole. I urge you not to pursue the rabbit further. BusterD (talk) 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  Good call, I'll retract the above. Remsense ‥ 论 13:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  No, that is not what I am implying. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  No one has said your contributions are not good. However, it should be noted that a draft being accepted at AfC or a new page having been patrolled does not guarantee greater scrutiny would not result in a valid AfD nomination. That said, echoing others here it's clear something problematic is up with this user's behavior. Remsense ‥ 论 12:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  You can't both criticize someone for lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related WP:GNG and WP:NPOL, and then argue that she is too familiar with the platform to be a newcomer for knowing how to file an AfD. I wouldn't be surprised if most people here knew how to file an AfD before knowing all 14 notability guidelines by heart. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  There are detailed instructions on filing an AfD that can be found by googling "how can I get a Misplaced Pages page deleted" - if somebody had some personal reason for wanting to have pages removed it doesn't strain credibility to think that's why they created a WP account and that they just followed the very clear instructions on the appropriate pages.

  In fact that might explain why some of the AfD filings were reasonable and some were, on their face, incorrectly filed. If you looked up the AfD process but not criteria that is the likely outcome. That's why I find the "new user files AfDs must be a sock" idea here somewhat uncompelling. Simonm223 (talk) 13:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

• I believe we're entering boomerang territory at this point. Opinions? BusterD (talk) 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  I think OP is upset that a cluster of their articles were put up at AfD. This in itself is understandable, but while there's reason to think there might be mischief by Kriji Sehamati, we don't have any real evidence of it. We either need the OP to make it clearer what misconduct, if any, has occurred, or they need to drop the stick. Remsense ‥ 论 13:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  The OP has been intentionally disruptive (by creating a new ANI thread which was reverted), and this thread is going nowhere. IMHO, there's nothing ANI can do here. Everything I'm reading about should be resolved at the page talk and user talk level, in my opinion. The AfDs are underway. If dispute resolution is needed, fine. Nobody is harming S-Aura. S-Aura can't come crying to ANI (or four random user talk pages like mine) anytime someone merely disagrees with them. BusterD (talk) 14:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  I'd have said close with trout for all if not for creating the second thread at AN/I. Based on that I'd say the OP should be formally cautioned against such antics in the future. Simonm223 (talk) 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  I should have added that I largely hold with Remsense in their position. BusterD (talk) 14:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  User:Kriji Sehamati‬ is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages, but we don’t have any evidence because understanding Misplaced Pages’s AfD process so quickly can be a bit challenging. I have no problem with AfD regarding my contributions, and it’s a good thing that experienced contributors are giving their feedback. If you believe that the kriji is 100% correct and her activity is not suspicious, then this discussion should be closed. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 14:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  You need to stop insisting this is definitely the case if you don't have any evidence for it, period. Remsense ‥ 论 14:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  S-Aura, how did you make the determination User:Kriji Sehamati‬ is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages? Please share your process. That's a personal attack, and requires proof to prevent you from being in violation of WP:NOPERSONALATTACKS. I've looked at the AfDs and they seem reasonable to me. When you've provided strong sources the article is being kept. So far the jury is out on the others. Both of you seem to be writing articles about obscure living persons who wouldn't normally (by my cursory reading) have a Misplaced Pages article about them because reliable sourcing is not readily found. When I see that, I must suspect COI or undeclared unpaid editing here, but nobody's admitting to it. BusterD (talk) 15:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  S-Aura's continuing to issue personal attacks makes it more difficult for us to just close this (without some form of consequence for the editor making unproven personal attacks after they've been warned repeatedly). BusterD (talk) 15:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  I have made a level-four user talk page warning for the personal attack. FYI. We've been very nice about this up 'til now, but we need to stop being so kind. Doing foolish things has real world consequences. BusterD (talk) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

• Both editors' apparent use of AI is certainly disruptive. If it continues, it should lead to blocks. C F A 15:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  No personal hate intended, but I just found this and thought it would be worth checking. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  It would be nice if you could explain the significance for those who do not speak Hausa. Remsense ‥ 论 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  She had made contributions to pages in other languages a few months ago. I am attaching her contributions link. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 16:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  How does this constitute evidence of sockpuppetry if we aren't to know what exactly happened? There's a reason we don't just automatically block anybody who is blocked on another language wiki, and I looked through the edits some and didn't find anything outrageous that made it past the language barrier. Remsense ‥ 论 17:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that it’s important to ensure we have solid evidence before making conclusions. I appreciate your perspective on not automatically blocking users based on blocks from other language wikis. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 17:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  Please don't reply to me or others using ChatGPT. It is flat-out rude. Remsense ‥ 论 17:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support BOOMERANG - I've been uninvoled and have mainly just been watching the back-and-forths, but the personal attacks and VESTED mindset, such as "questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors", concerns me. Not sure for how long, but I don't think anything longer than a months is appropriate given the circumstances. E_F 15:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Darkwarriorblake making aspersions

The OP says they don't care any more which I'm reading as a withdrawal and the other party says they won't be responding again so I'm closing this discussion. My only comment is that both editors in this dispute should have brought this to the article talk page to talk this disagreement out. I don't know if the differences would be resolved but this is what we advise editors to do when their edits are reverted. Now I just have to get that scene in the movie out of my mind. Liz 05:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Postscript: Ah, someone just close this, I don't care any more.  — Hex • talk 22:56, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

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I'm posting here after a particularly underwhelming interaction with an editor in the form of edit summaries. I'll need to provide the context of a brief content dispute which hopefully won't take too long and then get to the point. I'm not asking for anyone to take my side in the dispute.

Trading Places is a widely acclaimed comedy film from 1983, which is also widely acknowledged to have problematic elements by modern standards, including a scene in which the villain of the piece, stuck in a gorilla costume, is locked in a cage with a real gorilla, which is implied to sexually penetrate him without his consent.

The article states that G. Gordon Liddy demurred being cast in the role upon finding that out. The citation for this claim is a listicle on Indiewire, which contains the sentence

Reportedly, Liddy was on board until he got to the part where Beeks becomes a gorilla’s mate.

Reportedly by whom is not mentioned, let alone is there a direct quotation from Liddy. Plus as can be seen the words "becomes a gorilla's mate" are linked to a very poor quality, hand-held video of the scene in question playing on a television. This alone should be enough to raise serious questions about the use of this "source" in a featured article.

The content dispute began when I changed it like this (diff) with the comment Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs:

−

Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla.

+

Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks is raped by a gorilla.

This was reverted (diff) by Darkwarriorblake with the comment not what the source says.

After thinking about it a moment I came to the conclusion described above about the quality of the source, and decided that it was better out than in, which is what I should have done in the first place.(diff)

−

...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks. Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla. Paul Gleason took the role;...

+

...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks with Paul Gleason eventually taking the role;...

My accompanying comment was (a) That was the source's voice, not Liddy's. It's called a euphemism. Demonstrable by how it links to a clip of the scene in which a man is raped by a gorilla. (b) Source says "reportedly" for this claim, without evidence. Poor quality source. Removing claim

That was reverted by Darkwarriorblake (diff) with the comment Nothing wrong with Indiewire as a source, if there is I'd raise it at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. Until then, there's a talk page for you to use per WP:BRD. Your comments sound agenda driven and therefore not Neutral.

This is where the reason for me to raise this at this board begins, because that's solidly an example of casting aspersions. It came on top of a revert which reintroduced a claim cited to a rumor in a blog post into a featured article, but that's really not my concern, because if the champions of the featured article process have decided that it's somehow acceptable for our "best" content then I'm just going to move on to something else rather than argue.

There's one final back and forth which was enough to motivate me to post here. First, I reverted that revert (, my only time using the actual "Undo" button today), with this comment: a good source doesn't say "reportedly" (ie, spread a rumor), it specifies the origin of a fact. My only "agenda" is with a crap listicle being used as a reference, regardless of who published it. Take it to talk if you want to argue for the continued inclusion of a trash ref in a featured article, or source the claim properly yourself.

This was reverted - again - by Darkwarriorblake (diff) with the comment How are you an admin? "rape played for laughs" is an agenda, this went through FA as is so WP:STATUSQUO and WP:BRD apply. You must go to the talk page, not I. I don't know if you're going through a bad time or something but this isn't how an admin should be acting or communicating with others, up to and including WP:EDITWARRING

At this point it's gone firmly into the realm of knee-jerk reversions, because if Darkwarriorblake took the time to read the article which they've reverting changes to for years (is this ownership? Kind of feels that way), they would get down to the critical reassessment section. Which says "some critics have praised the film while highlighting elements that they believe aged poorly, including racial language, the use of blackface, and the implied rape of Beeks by a gorilla", cited to articles in four major publications. Or, you know, even search Google for "Trading Places gorilla rape".

So anyhow regardless of whether the Indiewire source is deemed suitable or not, I'm just wondering what the feeling here is about someone making goofy assertions on the record that another editor has "an agenda" (what agenda could it be?) and may not be emotionally stable, which really doesn't feel like assuming good faith at all.  — Hex • talk 20:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Hrrm, this seems a bit excessive.

• I've added a second source for the claim. Really this should've been the first option rather than removing the content.
• The first summary was, as stated, "Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs". "Rape played for laughs" is a loaded comment and not something said in the article or the source text, so it's a personal opinion, it's not neutral, it's agenda-driven.
• When this was reverted, the editor just removed the content entirely claiming IndieWire was unreliable. There is, as far as I'm aware, nothing wrong with Indiewire. I've since found a second source, the Telegraph, which is reliable per Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources.
• The editor ignored WP: BRD when raised, and as an admin they should adhere to policy.
• The editor states that they are an admin on their page. Assuming this is true, the aggressiveness of their edits, hyper focus on the single area, and use of words like "crap listicle" seemed out of line with what I, personally, would expect from an admin on Misplaced Pages, certainly someone who has been so for nearly two decades. Perhaps the edit summary wasn't the place to have that discussion but, as stated, they weren't adhering to WP: BRD to start a discussion, and in the interim the article needed putting back to the status quo.
• I find accusations of OWNERSHIP often tend to come when people don't get their way. Which is fine. I have plenty of reversions on the page for people adding unsourced content and there are plenty of changes as well. I find someone removing sourced content and me putting the sourced content back to not really be something you can fling ownership at.
• Within the context of the film, Beeks does become the romantic partner of the gorilla, it seemed more appropriate and encylcopedic text than just saying 'rape', and neither source I've added says that either.
• Anyways, my edit history shows I'm a massive contributor and helper and it's nearly Xmas, and I don't feel like engaging with this any further, good luck Hex. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Of course you don't, having ignored the actual matter of your conduct that I'm raising here. Your comments about the content of the article are irrelevant.  — Hex • talk 20:43, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

• Hex's position is not wholly supported, although in the entire issue, their toolset is irrelevant. There was no incivility on either part, and an all-out edit war seems to have been averted.Fundamentally the change Hex wanted to make was pure OR; rape may have been intimated—or, as Hex themself admits, implied—but its never overtly stated and is a wholly loaded term. This is the interpretation of an editor, not of secondary sources. If there is a pron=blem with Indywire as a source—currently used in 1000s of articles—take it to WP:RSN. If it's disputed that it's a high quality source per WP:FA?, then take it to WT:FAC. Accusations of OWNership are as unhelpful—and as much an aspersion—as accusations of agenda-led editing. In fact, for OWNership, Hex should read the relevant policy: here, it is WP:FAOWN, which not only allows for careful stewardship of featured material, but requires significant changes to the consensus version to be discussed on talk; I don't suppose there's any suggestion that introducing rape—particularly "played for laughs"—wouldn't be a significant addition.Really though, this is an overblown content dispute which should have started with one revert each, and ended on the talk page. --SerialNumber54129 21:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

  "Never overtly stated... 'played for laughs' be a significant addition" - here's an interview with John Landis, the director.

  One of the executives was deeply appalled by a man being sexually molested by a gorilla. And I said you know, it's a joke and it goes by very quickly. But the first preview was very successful and it all went away.

  Feel free to amend the article on that basis. I'm certainly not interested in spending any more time on it.  — Hex • talk 22:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Followup

I just want to say that, now that we've had an ANI thread on the subjeect of Gordon Liddy's feelings about portraying the romantic partner of a gorilla, I can die happy.

While we're on the subject, our article on Liddy recites that Prior to his departure from the FBI in 1962, Liddy sought admission to various bars. I'm curious to know whether this is meant to imply that Liddy had a drinking problem, and whether this could have had any bearing on the whole gorilla romantic partner situation. EEng

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extremely Annoying situation

Blocked for one week. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I reverted this edit by this IP. They then trouted me multiple times for it. One of these was for "being shovel shenanigans" which I took as a PA and informed them of it.

The rest escapes words for me. See these discussions.

on my page

On theirs

they also used a second IP to continue to irk me. I hesitated to bring this to ANI, since they seemed new, and I didn't want to bite, but enough is enough.

Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 00:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP vandalism

Blocked. (non-admin closure) C F A 03:53, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This user: user:76.67.115.228 seems to be on a spree of Vandalism, which they are summarising in the edit summaries as 'reverting vandalism'. Example: 1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Terrainman (talk • contribs) 02:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

including racist edits summarized as reverting racist texts. Example irisChronomia (talk) 03:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The IP is already blocked. To OP: Consider reporting obvious vandalism like this at WP:AIV. – 2804:F1...57:88CF (::/32) (talk) 03:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Stationmanagerskidrow removing information on Radio Skid Row page

User:Stationmanagerskidrow is repeatedly removing information about a recent incident involving a Jewish DJ at their station. They say that it is incorrect information, even though it is sourced. The name also states clearly that this is a company account. Lastly, they have continued this behavior even after being warned on their talk page. Pyramids09 (talk) 03:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

User is now editing using User:159.196.168.116 Pyramids09 (talk) 03:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

This is a content dispute and the article is being actively edited by many different editors. However, no discussion about the disagreements has occurred on the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. Liz 04:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

That article probably should be speedied as an A7 for not containing any assertions of notability; which obscures that Stationmanagerskidrow appears to have been edit warring on it with an undisclosed COI, and presumably was WP:LOUTSOCKing as this IP, and if so violated 3RR as well. It's probably best for me not to take administrative action here tonight as I won't be around later/tomorrow to deal with any followups, but something should be done here beyond just saying "take it to the talk page." ⇒SWATJester 06:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The page was longer, but sourced (all but?) soley to the station's site and it's been trimmed down to what it is now. Given the repeated edit-warring by IPs I've semi-protected the page for two days for now. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:USERNAME and WP:COI message added here. I'm just about to make myself thoroughly WP:INVOLVED by seeing what I can do about the Radio Skid Row article. Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 09:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Insults

I'd like to report an incident related to this discussion. A person under IP already accused me of being "obsessed". Now someone (possibly the same person) suggests that I may need psychiatric help. Please also see this comment. I guess we can always agree to disagree with other people, but this is going a bit too far. Thank you. Psychloppos (talk) 09:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Psychloppos. What action are you seeking to happen here? Liz 09:42, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea which actions are warranted here. Maybe an admin could leave a message to this IP and this registered user and remind them that they should assume good faith ? It would also be nice to remind them about Misplaced Pages:Civility and Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. Saying that I am "fuelled by an unhealthy obsession" or questioning my sanity do not seem to respect those guidelines. Psychloppos (talk) 09:52, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Nlkyair012 and LLM chatbots

• Nlkyair012

This editor has been constantly using AI chatbots to respond and write messages. They are a single purpose account for glorifying the Kamaria Ahir caste using unreliable WP:RAJ era sources, I and several other experienced editors have taken time and effort to respond to their endless queries and WP:SEALIONING generated using ChatGPT. They have posted AI generated walls of text on multiple noticeboards such as WP:RSN and WP:DRN and including here , accusing me of vandalism.

Despite my repeated requests and even a final warning to them (including a request by @ActivelyDisinterested:) they are still continuing to do it. Their messages are repeating the same argument again and again and are frankly just hallucinations that bring up fictitious guidelines or misrepresent the existing ones. Several editors have told them that Raj era sources are not reliable yet they continue to ask for more evidence on why that is the case based on AI generated claims of supposed academic value or neutrality. This is getting very disruptive and taking up valuable contributor time to respond to their endless AI responses which take a few seconds to generate. I have alerted them about WP:GSCASTE and WP:ARBIPA, I would appreciate it if someone could enforce a restriction on this user from at minimum caste area. - Ratnahastin (talk) 13:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Ratnahastin,

To start with I should admit that I am sorry for all the inconvenience that I may have caused as a result of my actions. It was never my intention to take people’s time or skew the conversation in a certain way. I appreciate the core idea to contribute the thoughts to the Wiki and share it borne in mind the overall rules and policies of this program.

I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site. Even when I was using AI for the grammar check or, for instance, to elaborate on some point in the text, I saw to my mismanagement that over the process we probably confused the readers and repeated the same information and thoughts, which I would never wish to happen again. From now on I will ensure that in the future the input which I provide to wikipedia fits the Misplaced Pages standard and is more personal. I will also not write walls of text and will not make assertations that do not have substantiated evidence in sources.

As for subjects that concern the Raj and the sources from this period and the discussions we have had it seems that I have gone too far in demanding clarification for the same thing. That being the case, with the understanding that the consensus will be acknowledged, I shall not be inclined to reopen this discussion unless new substantiated evidence is produced. I don’t want to prolong the conversation or bring any more stress.

I will strive to learn from my experience to be more productive in my interactions going forward. If there are other limitations or additional rules to which I have to stick to, I will receive them with pleasure.

In the same respect, let me specially apologize for the inconvenience and thank all of you for bearing with us. That was why I wanted to remind all of us that we can and should keep collectively improving Misplaced Pages as a resource. Nlkyair012 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

This comment also has a typical LLM feel and contains meaningless statements such as "I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site" and differs substantially from your usual (non-AI) writing style, although GPTzero said this is human input. - Ratnahastin (talk) 13:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

It seems human in that it contains some composition and grammar errors that I don’t think an LLM would produce. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 13:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply sir, I can't explain how frustrated I'm feeling from this morning which this user made me experience Nlkyair012 14:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The time when I messaged Vikram banafar I was casual not formal and second of all your saying doesn't prove anything "and differs substantially from your usual (non-AI) writing style" that's a straight up false accusation and utter nonsensical point and 3rd point being that GPTzero stated that this is a human input then that's an human input end of the question. Nlkyair012 14:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

No it's really not the end of the story if GPTZero says "likely human". In fact I'd actively discourage people depending on tools like GPTZero in favour of their human senses which are better at detecting LLM outputs than yet another computer program. And, frankly, what you're hearing from people here is we'd rather your casual, human, flaws-and-all style of writing over ChatGPT output "formal" report templates. They are doing the opposite of what you're looking for and have become disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 14:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Man you still wanna do this? @Zanahary also says this doesn't seems AI generated to him and he used his actual "Human senses" to lean that way Nlkyair012 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Admitting that you have used AI for writing your comments and then saying that you have not used AI is not going to help your case. - Ratnahastin (talk) 14:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

You know what I think this is getting to the WP:NOTHERE point. Having to tell somebody to have the basic respect of other editors to not subject them to text-walls of chatGPT garbage over and over again is a disruptive distraction from what we should all be doing. Simonm223 (talk) 14:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

This ain't getting anywhere Nlkyair012 14:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I really don't understand the problem. Cuz I literally also said many where that yes I used AI but for expanding and grammar correction Nlkyair012 14:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

If this combative approach is your "casual" style, perhaps your use of AI and its over the top politeness was an attempt to mask it. In any case, I think you are not here for building an encyclopaedia but for caste glorification given your obsession with a certain sub-caste. - Ratnahastin (talk) 14:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

im not obsessed with a certain subcaste but am sure is obsessed with British Raj sources. Nlkyair012 14:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that's better. Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 15:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Potential vandal trying to start edit war on the page for Frisch's.

This user keeps using IP addresses in order to revert creditable information about who makes their tartar sauce. Please look into this user. IP Addresses used were 67.80.16.30, 66.117.211.82, and 216.24.107.180. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JrStudios The Wikipedian (talk • contribs) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy link Frisch's. Knitsey (talk) 17:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

User:Nadeem asghar khan inaccurate edit summaries

All but 2 of user's edit summaries are "Fixed Typo" when they are in fact partially updating statistical information on the page. Have left multiple messages/warnings on TP, with no response. Spike 'em (talk) 16:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Lil Dicky Semi-Protection

Lil Dicky was semi-protected back in 2019. Now that five years have passed, could the semi-protection be lifted? 174.93.89.27 (talk) 16:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Ask at WP:RFPP EvergreenFir (talk) 16:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

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