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== Disruptive editing and WP:TALKNO by ] ==
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The main issue with this editor at the moment is disruptive editing based on continuous abuse of ] and ]. Issues began when this editor . They did it and and .
== Unblock of Callmebc ==


Instead of starting a discussion on the talk page of the article, the user came to ] to let me know of their opinion of my contributions. When I on the talk page of the relevant article, the user and according to their POV. When I let them know that this was highly inappropriate according to ], both and , they ] stating {{tq|ever since the stupid Misplaced Pages Dec. 2019 encryption protocol upgrade, to able to edit or view Misplaced Pages at all from my home computer, I have to use an indirect method which involves a non-fully-Unicode-compliant tool. I couldn't even really see your signature that way, and so didn't know to try to avoid changing it|q=y}}, which I had never heard of. In any case, they kept reverting the content supported by the reliable source, they also kept attempting to apply their POV to the discussion heading and and . I that I had and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, and they went ahead and .
So, about a month ago ] was indefinitely blocked because he had basically given up on "editing in a collaborative spirit" and was becoming abusive and disruptive over the topic. Since there was no apparent way to fix his behavior, he was blocked for a long period of time. While blocked, he has remained up to date as a ] on the topic he was previously engaged in, and we have been (quite genially, I might add) discussing how his editing habits might be improved, since he has an honest desire to contribute to these subjects in a constructive fashion. As you can see from his , he has not been a perfect editor, to put it mildly &mdash; however, we've discussed a lot of these issues, and I think he has a sincere desire to begin "editing in a collaborative spirit".
<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)</small>


:The other user in this case is ]? This looks like a content dispute over whether the article is on the English version of a German-Arabic dictionary or the dictionary itself. ] (]) 15:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
Since I'm not here to play parole officer, or pretend I'm some kind of behavior-police (something which I do not believe is the correct role of admins), I've mostly discussed with him how to address the concerns many people brought up in his previous blocks, and the discussion which led up to his indefinite block. In any case, since I didn't want to put words in his mouth or set "conditions" for unblocking him, we decided that he should work up a statement of compromises that he's willing to make to engage his unblock.
::Yes the is indeed about ]. I see the content dispute as stemming from the fundamental conduct issue, which has manifested itself most egregiously with insisting on violating ] repeatedly even after I that I had and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, after which they went ahead and . ] (]) 16:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The heading dispute is between a date heading, and a descriptive heading? that's not really reformulating your entry. ] (]) 17:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
::::It's a conduct issue. ] (]) 19:58, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::But what conduct issue? TALKNO doesn't forbid changing headings. In fact the wider guideline makes it clear it's perfectly acceptable "{{tqi|Because threads are shared by multiple editors (regardless of how many have posted so far), no one, including the original poster, "owns" a talk page discussion or its heading. It is generally acceptable to change headings when a better heading is appropriate, e.g., one more accurately describing the content of the discussion or the issue discussed, less one-sided, more appropriate for accessibility reasons, etc. Whenever a change is likely to be controversial, avoid disputes by discussing a heading change with the editor who started the thread, if possible. It can also sometimes be appropriate to merge entire sections under one heading (often preserving the later one as a subheading) if their discussions are redundant.}}" To be blunt, if you don't want editors changing the headings of sections you start, don't use such terrible headings. I definitely recommend you stay away from ANI since changing headings is quite common here. ] (]) 06:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Actually I missed the signature issue. That's far more concerning unfortunately lost IMO partly because you concentrated on silly stuff. ] (]) 06:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::&lrm;إيان: I suggest you stop messing around with the section heading since it's a distraction which could easily lead to you being blocked. But if AnonMoos changes your signature again, report it and only that without silliness about section headings, mentioning that they've been warned about it before if needed. ] (]) 06:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)


I wrote a long and detailed explanation on his user talk page as to why the date-only header is basically useless in that context, but he's still for some peculiar reason fanatically determined to keep changing it back. Frankly, I've basically run out of good-faith reasons that make any sense -- except of course, his apparently unshakable belief that he has certain talk-page "rights", which according to Misplaced Pages guidelines he does '''not''' in fact have (outside of his own personal user talk page)... ] (]) 23:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
'''Statement by "Callmebc"'''


:{{replyto|AnonMoos}} I don't see a problem with changing the heading but why on earth did you change their signature multiple times ? That is indeed a clear violation of ] since the signature was perfectly valid per ]. In fact your change was far worse since it changed a perfectly valid signature which would take other editors to the contributor's talk page and user page into an invalid one which lead no where. If you're using some sort of plugin which does that, it's your responsibility to manage it better so it doesn't do that ever again especially if you're going to edit talk pages where it might be common. If you're doing that intentionally, I suggest you cut it out or expect to be indeffed. ] (]) 06:48, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
I wish to be unblocked from Misplaced Pages. I was indefinitely blocked apparently because of my attitude -- I put accuracy above all else, and I don't play well with others whom I suspect of not being honest. This has led me to be combative and somewhat sarcastic at times, with both other editors and admins. While I feel very strongly that whatever comments I have made were entirely justified in context, I understand that Misplaced Pages is not all about being accurate at all costs -- it is a social, collaborative effort requiring some degree of patience, tolerance, encouragement and giving editors and admins the benefit of the doubt even when I strongly disagree with what is being said or done.
::], this is not good to see. Don't rewrite or reformat other editor's signatures. There is no reason to be doing this unless you are trying to provoke the other editor. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::: For what it's worth, AnonMoos stated earlier that the changing of the signature was a unintentional technical issue, due to his use of some "non-standard tool" in accessing the internet . This seems plausible, as similar apparently unintentional changes to non-Ascii character data have happened in edits of his before (e.g. ). But if he knew of this issue, it's rather disappointing he let it happen again some days later . Equally disappointing is the extremely aggressive rhetoric and acerbic tone with which he has been escalating this essentially harmless, good-faith content dispute from the beginning. ] ] 10:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I just can't fathom what tool they're using to get around the HTTPS requirement to edit Misplaced Pages securely. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Should be impossible as it's required to even access the site in the first place according to ]]<sup>] </sup> 16:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::<strike>Looking at his talk page it's been going back to at least 2011]<sup>] </sup> 16:17, 19 December 2024 (UTC)</strike>
:Guys, I do not deliberately set out to modify signatures, and when it happens, I am not usually aware of doing so. As I've already explained before in several places, since the December 2019 encryption protocol upgrade (NOT 2011!), the only way I can edit (or view) Misplaced Pages at all from home is by an indirect method which is not fully Unicode-compliant. To change this, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection, which would permanently disconnect my older computer, which I still use almost every day.
:Meanwhile, this thread has been set up so I can't add a comment to it from home without affecting Unicode characters, so I was unable to reply here for 36 hours or so. If I'm silent in the future, it will be for the same reason. ] (]) 01:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::Misplaced Pages uses Unicode characters (] encoding). Anyone who cannot edit without corrupting such characters should '''not edit'''. ] (]) 03:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Whatever, -- I was using them perfectly fine until December 2019, and still use them perfectly fine on public WiFi, but in December 2019 a requirement was imposed that you can't access Misplaced Pages '''at all''' unless you can handle encryption algorithms and protocols that weren't introduced until the mid-2010s. I have a 2012 web browser on my home computer that handles UTF-8 just fine, but 2012 simply wasn't good enough for the Misplaced Pages developers -- you had to have software that was almost up to date as of 2019, or you would be abruptly totally cut off. If you can drag up the relevant archive of Village Pump Technical, I and others complained at the time, but our concerns were not listened to or considered in any way. The basic attitude of the developers was that if you weren't running almost up-to-date software, then screw you, and if your computer is not capable of running almost up-to-date software, then double screw you! The change was announced for January 2020, but was actually implemented in mid-December 2019, apparently because they were so eager and anxious to start excluding people. It wasn't one of Misplaced Pages's finer moments. Since that time, I have had to use an indirect method to access Misplaced Pages from my home computer, and I don't feel particularly guilty about it (other people's obnoxious behaviors in 2019 have done away with most of the guilt I might feel)... ] (]) 20:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::...] was created in ''1994'', and became an official specification in '''2000''', not "mid-2010s". I'm not sure what 2012 web browser you're using, but if it's not able to handle HTTPS not being able to access Misplaced Pages with it is the least of your browsing concerns, given that 85-95% of the World Wide Web defaults to it now. Also I hate to think of how many security holes your ancient computer has. I'm going to be honest: with a brower setup that old it isn't safe for you to be on the web ''at all'', and the security hole that lets you access Misplaced Pages without using a secure connection should be fixed, because that is ''not'' working as intended and is - as mentioned - a security hole. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:18, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::You unfortunately don't know what you're talking about. New ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL METHODS have been introduced ''within'' HTTPS from time to time. I was using HTTPS perfectly happily until December 2019, when the developers arbitrarily ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. ] (]) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::And even leaving that aside, as Johnuniq mentions - if you can't edit without corrupting Unicode characters, and by your own admission you ''don't know when it happens'', you shouldn't be editing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::This is probably a reference to when Misplaced Pages started requiring TLS 1.2 (because earlier versions were deprecated). Anyone who was/is still on Windows XP at that point couldn't connect any more. ] (]) 01:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::I'm not talking about when the update happening, I'm talking about how you have known about this issue, and have been getting complainants about it since <strike>2011</strike>and are still not taking any steps to do anything about it. What kind of internet connection would not support your PC? What on earth are you even using? Dial-Up? Because that still is supported by even Windows 10. ]<sup>] </sup> 02:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
<strike>:::Also, how did you see me saying "this has happened since 2011" as me saying that the update happened in 2011? Can you clarify. ]<sup>] </sup> 03:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC) </strike>
::::The problem didn't start in 2011, and I have no idea what you're referring to when you mention 2011. The problem started in December 2019 when the developers arbitrarily imposed new ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS... ] (]) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::: Apologies. I was extremely tired when I wrote both above. I have striken the date parts. Rest of my comments still stand. ]<sup>] </sup> 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
===None of this matters===
I don't care what tool this guy uses or what his excuse is. If he can't edit without screwing up people's sigs, then he must not edit. {{U|AnonMoos}} shouls consider himself on notice now that if one of his edits messes stuff up one more time, he'll be blocked until he can give assurance that he's come into the 21st century. ]] 18:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:That's nice -- and also totally inaccurate. I ''was'' in the 21st century, and using 2012 tools, up until December 2019, when the developers pitchforked me backwards by arbitrarily imposing HTTPS ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS which my home computer hardware is not able to run. Notice that I had no problem complying with character-set handling -- the problem is with arbitrary ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. ] (]) 00:48, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The century imagery is irrelevant. You have been warned. ]] 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::That was ''six years ago'', which is IMO about 3-4 years too long to keep using it as an excuse. Technology changes over time, so whatever this non-standard thing you think you need to do to edit here, it may be time to make a choice. ] (]) 00:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::As I said, to fix the problem, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection which would permanently disconnect my old computer, which I still use almost every single day. I would basically have to change my workflow and overall habits/methods of working because of an arbitrary decision by Misplaced Pages developers about encryption protocol updates. Anyway, when editing through public WiFi, I'm 100% Unicode compliant, and by exercising a little prudence, I can also avoid most problems when working from home. If I was constantly mangling Unicode right and left, there would have been a chorus of complaints long before now. But occasionally I can't anticipate a problem... ] (]) 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::And just to say for the third time: you're out of chances. "Occassionally" is too often. Once more is too often. And if and when that happens, your attitude of entitlement displayed here will pretty much ensure an indefinite block. ]] 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Think it's time to draft up a formal proposal at this point? ]<sup>] </sup> 18:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I don't think that's necessary. The key isn't formally deciding the criterion for blocking (because that's obvious to everyone) but rather detecting the next incident. Best way to do that for everyone gathered here to watchlist ]. Sooner or later, futher trouble will show up there. ]] 21:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::If you have DSL or even DialUp. That still works with modern machines. ]<sup>] </sup> 01:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Heck, ''I'' am on DSL (and have been since, if I recall right, 2008). I have no idea what sort of ancient Internet connection AnonMoos is claiming to be using, but it's clearly one that was already obsolete before this change he's still up in arms about six years later was made. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Not to mention it would STILL be supported these days. It's literally right there when you click wifi/network settings in Windows 10. ]<sup>] </sup> 18:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*The response by AnonMoos to feedback about this problem is bizarre. I don't really care what the excuse or the history behind it. If you are unwilling to edit Misplaced Pages using tools that work in 2024 then you should stop editing. The behavior is completely unnecessary and it seems like you don't understand the disruption. ] (]) 14:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


* AnonMoos hasn't really explained in any detail what their technical limitations are. They don't have to, but we can't really give advice otherwise. If as others have suggested their computer can't negotiate TLS 1.2, I'm surprised that they're able to use any websites at all from that computer. Requiring TLS 1.2 is not controversial; Misplaced Pages wasn't doing anything unusual in dropping TLS 1.0/1.1 around that time. ] ] 15:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
I've been inactive over a month and thought about behaviorial & attitude changes I can agree to that would strike a balance between my wanting things accurate and up to date in a timely manner, and the Wiki process of collaboration and WP:AGF. This is what I think would be a good compromise:


*If it's that much of a problem for his computer, go and buy a new computer. It would certainly be better than whining about how Misplaced Pages broke his ability to edit without screwing things up for other users.] (]) 07:06, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
1) I will refrain from making any changes at all to the main article page without first going through a Talk page discussion. If the discussion degrades to ], and ], and ] (as is often the case with politically sensitive topics), I will still avoid simply going ahead to make the changes anyway and instead will follow Misplaced Pages policies regarding ]


:Meh. None of ''this'' matters. Signatures sometimes get accidentally fucked up. This is an encyclopedia, not a forum, and this signature thing is not a real disruption to the creation of encyclopedic content. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 07:21, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
The only exceptions I'll will be blatant vandalism and substantial undiscussed changes I have problems with in terms of accuracy and content -- I will just revert the first as a matter of course, and will revert the second with a note on the editor's home page to please discuss first on the Talk page. In the second case, if the editor makes an effort to discuss the changes, I will follow consensus and not object to putting the changes back even if I still have problems with them. If it is an issue with a single editor wanting to change something and there is no other feedback from anyone else, I will instead again follow Misplaced Pages policies regarding WP:DR rather than engage in an edit war.
::While true, it's still a violation of ], and if it's accidentally changing characters in signatures, who knows what ''else'' it might be doing that isn't getting caught or reported? - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:27, 25 December 2024 (UTC)


== Disruptive editing by ] ==
2) I will endeavor to be polite, regardless of the circumstances and provocation. The articles I tend to be interested in are politically charged and regularly draw in anonymous IP's, sock/meatpuppets and the like. In the worst case I will only adopt a neutral tone and will strive to avoid even making sarcastic remarks, however "appropriate" the circumstances might be.
{{atop|1=IP blocked 24 hours, and then ] and created an account to evade the block, which has now been indef'd. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
The ] is engaging in disrupte editing. Neither does this IP provide sources and is POV pushing. And this IP has been warned multiple times for this on his/her talk page.


] (]) 20:52, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
3) I will give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and then some, regardless of my suspicions. I will even go further and start with a clean sheet in regards to editors and admins I have bumped heads with in the past and regardless of my personal opinions. In real life, you get to pick your job but not your coworkers, and you are expected to get along regardless. The same is much the case with the Misplaced Pages -- you can pick which articles to work on, but you can't choose your coeditors, and you should try to get along regardless. They may include people you would never want to socialize with, but that's not the point of why you're there in either case.


:@]: It looks like you both are ] on ].<sup class="plainlinks"></sup> That's not particularly helpful, so you should try to have a discussion on the ] as to whether you should include the ] name for the article in the lead/infobox. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">]&thinsp;]<sup>]</sup></span> 20:33, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
4) In a nutshell, I will endeavor to improve the quality of articles without violating, however accidently, the collaborative spirit of Misplaced Pages.
::MJL why and how did you pick out that one article over the many this IP has made recent changes to? The IP has been making disputed edits for months and has been reverted by a number of editors, not just Moroike. ] (]) 01:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::@]: I am not suggesting that the IP editor isn't being disruptive, but my point is that {{u|Moroike}} isn't making the situation better (using the example of that one article). You can see this by looking at <span class="plainlinks"></span> where {{gender:Moroike|he has|she has|they have}} mostly just reverted this editor without using a summary. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">]&thinsp;]<sup>]</sup></span> 18:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::The IP's edits were removed a total of 13 times on the page regarding the capital city of ], ]. You can't let him continue engaging in further edit wars with other users besides Moroike, can you? ] (]) 17:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Since this IP user won't stop and is stonewalling, either he/should be temporarily blocked, or all the pages he is POV pushing without sources, should be semi-protected, so that only registered users can edit them. ] (]) 21:37, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:After he/she was blocked for 24 hours, this IP created an account as ] in order to evade the block and has resumed his/her POV pushing. ] (]) 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== User engaged in edit warring to remove disputed content prior to consensus ==
-BC aka Callmebc
{{atop|There's nothing actionable in this content dispute, except perhaps trouting the original poster for failing to assume good faith and hounding friendly admins when they try to help. Longtime user ] (4.5 yrs, over 5K edits) has made several assertions based on their clear misunderstanding of social norms. In this discussion they've failed to notify the subject (they actually failed to use the subject's name in the OP), they've failed to bring any diffs, they failed to sign their post, and over and over they seem to have failed to assume good faith of their fellow editors. A number of editors including several admins have attempted to talk Sxbbetyy down. Nobody in this discussion seems to agree with Sxbbetyy on the merits, yet Sxbbetyy keeps circling back to their own personal interpretation of policy. The discussion at ], where Sxbbetyy refuses to listen to the admin they asked, gives another example of the problem. Sxbbetyy is reminded that creating a post on ANI puts all their own behaviors up for examination. ] (]) 15:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)}}


Title is pretty self explanatory. Rather than engage in the consensus building process to determine if the disputed content discussed ] is problematic, ] editor has instead immediately reverted the disputed content. They have been informed of the relevant policies prohibiting this behavior and how it should normally be handled (tagging the content as disputed while the discussion is ongoing) but have elected to instead engage in edit warring to keep the disputed content removed prior to any consensus on the matter. Also important to note that they wish to have the content removed entirely, but have stated that they no longer intend to participate in the consensus building discussion. So this appears to be a ] tactic to accomplish their goal of removing the content immediately without a consensus. Seeking admin help to halt this behavior and restore the content with the correct tagging.<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:36, 18 December 2024 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Xsign -->
----
:It would help if you named the editor and signed your name to figure out what you are talking about; a noticeboard only works if you give us notice about the subject and what is happening. <span style="font-family: Roboto;">''']''' <span style="color:#00008B">•</span> <small>''(])''</small></span> 23:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::The editor appears to be {{u|PerfectSoundWhatever}}, based on the under the word "this" as well as . — ]&nbsp;<sub>]</sub> 23:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::My apology, this is my very first time making such a post. The other pages o have spoken on seemed to have signed themselves automatically. Will remember this going forward. And yes, that was the user, posted this using my phone so I didn't want to mis-spell their name, just linked instead. ] (]) 17:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:{{non-admin comment}} IMO the best practice is that in the event of a content dispute, the article should be reverted to the status quo of how the article's content appeared before the dispute started, until such a time that consensus is established to re-add it (see: ]). It seems like the beginning of the content that is in dispute was added on 18 August 2024, the dispute began a few weeks later on 23 September 2024 and has been ongoing ever since.{{pb}}In this case, since the article existed in a relatively steady state for several months (or even years?) previous to the disputed material being added, I think it'd be wise to leave the disputed content out of the article until the discussion comes to a close. ] (]) 00:07, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::I have been seeing this opinion from a few editors and even one admin on how to interpret this article. However, the first few sentences in that section do outright state to avoid reverting the disputed content prior to a consensus. And prior to opening this report, I asked several admins on the topic and got a response that reverting the disputed content immediately is incorrect per WP:STATUSQUO as it bypasses the consensus building process. I was advised that the content should instead be tagged as disputed rather than be outright removed. The offending user was made aware of the relevant policies but has nonetheless engaging in edit warring to keep it reverted, hence this report. ] (]) 17:13, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The status quo of an article constitutes implicit consensus (]). The person trying to include disputed content in an article despite it not being status quo is the one that could be construed as attempting to bypass the consensus building process, not the person trying to maintain status quo until discussion takes place. ] (]) 17:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Correct, and at no point was the definition of what constitutes the status quo ever in contention. In fact, if you review the edit history of the article you can see that the disputed content was the status quo via implicit consensus at the time PSW chose to first outright revert the content, and then continued to revert it as others tried to restore it (both before and after the consensus discussion began). ] (]) 23:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::{{tq|1=the disputed content was the status quo via implicit consensus at the time PSW chose to first outright revert the content}}<br>Not really, I personally wouldn't define "been there a few weeks" as status quo.{{pb}}I think maybe the other replies to this thread provide pretty good reasoning to take a step back and say "hey maybe I'm the one in the wrong here" instead of talking in circles ] (]) 00:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Personally I think the number of contributions since the edit where it has gone unchanged is a more useful metric, especially on low traffic pages such as this one. Regardless, per the policy you cite, there seems to be no official Misplaced Pages stance on what exact criteria are needed for a contribution to be considered the current status quo, beyond it having been unchallenged in subsequent contributions (which is the case here).
::::::As for the rest of your comment, there seems to be a high amount of band wagoning and "]" going on in the rest of this. Or people trying to use this report as an extension of the dispute discussion on the article's talk page. Hopefully more actual admins to chime in on the topic as I don't actually want to waste my time talking in circles.
::::::On that note thanks for actually taking the time and baseline minimal effort to engage in a discussion where you actually support your point and don't just devolve into repeating the same talking points over and over. It's a nice change of pace. ] (]) 02:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:I am the editor being discussed here. I'll provide a summary of events since the initial statement by Sxbbetyy is misleading.
:Myself and the editor had a content dispute at ] (]) and following circular discussion, I stopped engaging since I felt I had laid out my points. Per ], I maintained the state of the article to before the dispute. I requested for a ], which was answered by {{ping|BerryForPerpetuity}}, who agreed the statement should be removed, albeit for a different reason than mine. I took this 2-1 as rough consensus. I also posted the dispute on two WikiProjects, and have received no response so far. Sxbbetyy reached out to three admins about the matter, {{ping|Sergecross73|Oshwah|Pbsouthwood}}. The ] can be summarized as Sergecross believing that I haven't engaged in misconduct, and that I have presented a "plausible, good-faith interpretation of ]". Sxbbetyy then accused Sergecross73 of not acting in good faith. Oshwah did not respond to the post on ], but {{ping|BusterD}} did, essentially agreeing that the sourcing does not back up the claim in the content dispute. Sxbbetyy received help on ] about responding to a content dispute. And now we're here.
:Throughout these interactions, Sxbbetyy has demonstrated a failure to assume good faith, refuses to accept ], and ]s talk pages, refusing to let the other editor have the last word. Frankly, this is a massive waste of editor time: it should have been a brief talk page discussion then an RfC. Apologies for all the pings. — ] (]; ]) 00:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::This summarization in itself leaves out critical context, (such as berry's concern being alleviated and them no longer expressing a desire to remove the content), the specifics of why that conversation with Serge ended the way it did despite my repeated attempts to engage with them in good faith, and the entire discussion with pbsouthwood (who quite definitively explained that the behavior PSW was engaged in was not correct). So I urge all involved to go read those topics to get the correct context through your own eyes and then discuss any concerns from what you see here. That being the case, it seems pretty clear cut imo. ] (]) 17:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Just to be clear, in no way did I express that I didn't want the content to be removed. I did not receive a notification for your reply, and I wouldn't have engaged either way. —&nbsp;] ] 17:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)


: Yes, I would leave that material out of the article. Whilst it may not exactly be synthesis ''per se'', it is certainly editorialising ("the removal of that amount of marine debris is of negligible consequence...") ''unless'' there is an actual source that says this by making a link between between the two statistics (the amount of waste removed by Team Seas and the rate at which waste is entering the ecosystem). And even then, I would say that such an edit would need to say something like "However, ARandomNewspaper pointed out that ...". ] 00:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
As you can see, it basically amounts to a self-imposed probation on all articles, with civility probation attached. I think this will satisfy most of the concerns which surrounded his editing pre-block, but I wanted to bring it up for discussion here. So, what do you think? It would be helpful if comment could focus on particular requirements you think are not met in this, if you are opposed. For consideration, --] (]) 04:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
::That is actually no longer the content that is being disputed. If you look at the that got reverted on the article you can see the current version. I had made edits to it precisely because of valid WP:NPOV concerns brought to my attention by PSW. However, their dispute with the content remains with the claim that is is synthesis rather than any other concern. Which they have been thus far unable to obtain a consensus on. ] (]) 17:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC)


*I have some pretty serious ] concerns about the topic starter here. They came to me for help (no idea how/why me, I have no connection to this dispute) and I repeatedly told them I didn't see any misconduct, and then they started attacking ''me'' when I refused to agree with them. And now this. This is a very simple content dispute, with a very simple ] outcome. I've told them this. It's a disappointing time sink on a rather trivial content dispute. ] ] 00:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
: Frankly, I am always concerned when users try to get themselves unblocked in unusual fashions. I would rather Callmebc go through (since email is not disabled) and just request an unblock through unblock-en-l@lists.wikimedia.org first before coming here. If that is rejected, then fine, but AN/I is frankly too fast for a discussion of this type. If some admin is willing to consider it, I'd suggest unprotecting his user talk page and discussing it there instead of here. No opinion, just a random admin musing through. Frankly, after seeing your diatribes as unblock requests, I'd say to at least wait until the end of the month before even considering it and learn why your unblock requests got you deservedly blocked even worse. I'll add this: if (1) this thread goes nowhere, (2) he's emailed unblock and they've denied it as well, have him email me and I'll consider unprotecting his talk page after December 28 . Even then, I'm going to ask that at least one of the users who you are edit warring with agrees to the restrictions and will reblocked immediately and permanently for any nonsense. After this many blocks (and especially given the attitude during the blocked periods), I think I'm being way more than fair. -- ] (]) 07:10, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
*:At no point was he "attacked". I defended myself after he became hostile with me (as anyone can read in our convo, I stated multiple times that I would leave and did not want to be a burden if they didn't want to engage with this, but he made no such objections and continued). Eventually he just became outright hostile and refused to explain their points any further, devolving the conversation into them repeating themselves over and over, its all there to read on his talk page. As for why I contacted him, I wanted to ensure I chose impartially so I just randomly looked at the currently active admins at the time and he was the first one I found. ] (]) 18:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
*::The discussion is , if anyone wants to look. The "attack" I'm referring to you is your accusation that I responded to you in bad faith. I was not involved in the dispute, have no stance on it, and had no pre-conceived notions about either of you - what in the world would my motivations be for "bad faith responses"? It doesn't make any sense. You simply didn't get the response you wanted, and proceeded to badger me on it. Did I get vaguely irritated when I volunteered my time to review and comment on a dispute I had no stance or interest in, only to get all sorts of ] responses on it? Yeah, sure, but who wouldn't? ] ] 18:44, 19 December 2024 (UTC)


*I'm here from my input at the 3rd opinion request. This is nothing more than a trivial content dispute, I see no reason for this to be at ANI. I somewhat agree with the claim of ], it becomes more susceptible to incorrect information, and from my analysis it seemed like the claim in the disputed content was completely wrong. Two different sources, from two different time periods. My $0.02: The claim of stonewalling is ridiculous, there was ample good-faith discussion based on existing policy and guidelines. This editor does not ], it appears that he claims that editors disagreeing are acting in bad faith. From him to administrator Sergecross73: {{tq|"I'm not wasting time engaging with you if you aren't going to speak with me in good faith."}} It seems that he roots his argument based on the editor who removed it rather than the content itself. Very unfortunate waste of time. —&nbsp;] ] 15:31, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::To be fair, this is not really an "unusual fashion". I was discussing with Callmebc on-Wiki when he was appealing his block in the usual fashion. However, our discussion was cut short when his talk page was protected, but he had contacted me via email, so we decided to continue the discussion via email. There is nothing unusual about this, and it seems slightly ] to insist on jumping through hoops like reposting an extensive discussion we've had via email on his talk pages, or emailing a list which will only result in a discussion here &mdash; since this is clearly a case where the community needs to get involved. To be fair, in addition, its now been more than 1 month since his ''block'' was implemented. With respect to the "too fast" comment, the ] was merged with ] &mdash; so this is ''de facto'' the only place to bring up discussions of this nature; the consensus was that ] is not "too fast", but is in fact the correct forum for these discussions. --] (]) 08:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
*:Exactly. It's not "stonewalling" that's happening here. PerfectSoundWhatever has discussed at-length at the talk page. They're simply not willing to ''talk circles indefinitely''. And we don't require that of editors. I've urged Sxbbetyy to, rather that spin their wheels arguing with the same person endlessly in a stalemate, to try to get other participants to take part. But they've refused, and instead decided to move their arguing to ANI instead. As I noted to them in one of my last comments to them, if they spent half as much effort in consensus-building as they did complaining and arguing, they could have built a consensus by now... ] ] 17:30, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
*:Reading any of what I wrote in this dispute shows clearly that is not the case. Also, the quoted sentence is completely taken out of context.
*:Here is what was said in the mesaage before that they left out, "Not really the logical conclusion one draws from reading any of what I wrote here, where I asked multiple times for you to explain your reasoning in your replies (instead your response was to repeat yourself without offering further explanation), but if that is what you want to take away from this that's fine by me. I'm not wasting time engaging with you if you aren't going to speak with me in good faith."
*:The message as a whole was replying to was a passive aggressive insult that didn't progress that conversation, hence the response as it was clearly not an example of engagement in good faith.] (]) 18:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)


:Also, it looks like the participants in the dispute on the Team Seas article are acting as if this report is an extension of that dispute discussion.
:::To be honest it may seem bureaucratic but it is justified, he knew his talk page was going to be protected if he used it disruptively and he went ahead and gave a rather pointy reason for unblocking, wich was: "See below -- I was in the middle of composing an answer and proposition to Haemo when MaxSem shot first without asking me any questions. That wasn't nice or WP:CIVIL of him, was it?" the talk page was protected shortly after this last request was denied, there is no reason why the desicion to protect could be considered out of place. - ] 08:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
:This is a report of edit warring to revert disputed content prior to a consensus being reached (there was no consensus prior to the reversion and there still is no consensus, as admitted by PSW themselves in that very dispute and In their latest revert message, no idea why now in this report they are trying to claim that there is suddenly consensus for removal).
::::I'm not saying it was out of place &mdash; I was simply explaining that the discussion we began there was continued via email, instead of by arguing over the protection. I merely made the comment to explain why it was not an "unusual fashion" &mdash; i.e. it's not as though he contacted me out of the blue, or something, asking for an unblock. --] (]) 08:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
:This is not a report on the dispute itself, just to make that very clear since those involved are responding as if it is. ] (]) 18:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::You've still got this backward. You need to show a consensus to keep your content in the article, as everyone else has been telling you. ] is directly on point, and I'll quote it here: {{Tq|The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.}} ] (]) 18:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Thank you. I have tried to inform them of this many times and many ways. I do not know why they cannot wrap their head around the concept. Conceptually, it would be very problematic if we were required to retain every disputed content until consensus ruled it out. It wouldn't be workable. ] ] 19:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Nobody is arguing WP:ONUS here...not in the dispute and not here in this report. The point is that the content is being removed prior to there being a consensus on if it should be removed.
:::I was directly advised by admin Pbsouthwood that the removal of disputed content BEFORE any consensus has been reached is not allowed (save for specific situations, none of which apply to the disputed content) as this bypasses the consensus building process. ] is the talk page where I was advised this. This is echoed with the wording in WP:STONEWALLING and ]. Here is the direct quote from the latter, "To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the status quo ante bellum during a dispute discussion. Instead, add an appropriate tag indicating the text is disputed. For an article, many of the inline dispute tags are appropriate. For other pages, {{under discussion inline}} is good. Leave the status quo and the tag in place until the discussion concludes." ] (]) 19:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::{{tq|The point is that the content is being removed prior to there being a consensus on if it should be removed.}} <--- No. This is your problem. What you are saying here is incorrect. Policies say the opposite of this. You are not going to get support at ANI. In fact, the longer you keep going with this ] insistence that community practice is actually the opposite of what policies plainly say it is, the more likely it is you're going to find yourself blocked for disruption. Pbsouthwood didn't tell you this either (what he wrote doesn't match what you've been doing), and your initial question did not properly represent the situation at hand. But we can invite him here to see if he actually supports what you're doing here: {{ping|Pbsouthwood}}, what say you? ] (]) 20:06, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::This entire comment serves absolutely zero purpose whatsoever. You're parroting what others have already said with no supporting evidence. Along with throwing in an oddly included threat that is completely nonsensical and wholly unwarranted.
:::::And while I could point out the myriad of ways your claim about what Pbsouthwood said was inaccurate, that would pretty much involve reposting his reply, which is a waste since anyone can already go to his talk page and read it themselves.
:::::So at this point, if you need that admin to come here and tell you what they already said themselves, more power to you. Would save us all a ton of time to get an authoritative answer on this, especially with another admin holding the opposite view point, in spite of the specific policy wording. ] (]) 23:08, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::], there does not need to be an established consensus for the removal of content. ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I'm not the one insisting otherwise...this report only exists because an ]. And as I've posted in my previous replies, the wording in the policies clearly support that. Makes me question how many have actually bothered to really read these policies... ] (]) 02:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::The other admin told you ''nothing'' about the removal of ], which is always appropriate. ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:19, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::# This report is not an extension of the dispute discussion for that article, if you want to involve yourself in that discussion, do so there, do not hijack this report.
:::::::::# The disputed content is plainly not WP:SYNTH as I explain on the talk page in great length, with nobody thus far having provided valid examples as to how it is.
:::::::::# If you are going to make the claim that any WP:SYNTH concerns warrant immediate reversion without consensus, please feel free to share the quote in the relevant policy that says this. I have not found any such wording and instead found that what is present matches up with what PBsouthwood informed me.
:::::::::] (]) 17:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::] ] ] 02:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::At this point I say that my advice was given without a specific context, and without prejudice. I maintain that it is more collegial and polite to discuss a removal of unsourced but ''plausible'' content ''before'' removing it, as it can often avoid disputes of this kind, but it is not forbidden to arbitrarily delete content that an editor ''plausibly considers inappropriate provided the relevant reason is given''. It is always the responsibility of the person advocating inclusion to provide a reference when challenged, regardless of the process of challenge.
:::::Some forms of synthesis are acceptable. If a conclusion is logically inevitable based on undisputed factual premises, or is a simple mathematical calculation, we routinely accept claims that may not be specifically stated in a source, but we may require the logic to be explained, as it may not be obvious to the reader.
:::::At the risk of being ], I also refer readers to <s>]</s> <u>(looks like that essay has been expunged, try ])</u>. &middot; &middot; &middot; ] ]: 06:59, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I think many of us used to the mess editors adding unsourced content can create would strongly oppose leaving in unsourced content just because it's plausible. The standard should instead be at a minimum that you believe the claim made is most likely correct and sourceable not simply that it's plausible. Although ultimately such discussions are a little silly anyway. If editors would just add sources rather than leaving it for someone else because they're claiming it's unlikely to be challenged or whatever, there would be a need for others to decide whether to query or remove unsourced content. ] (]) 09:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I was suggesting tagging with citation needed while you wait a reasonable time for a response, but as we know some of us do not have the patience and just revert. It in not unheard of to know something, but not have a source handy at the time. What is obvious to one may be totally obscure to others. This is acceptable within policy and guidelines. You could start a RfC to have the guidelines changed, but I suspect it would not get through as being a bit bitey. Cheers, &middot; &middot; &middot; ] ]: 12:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, what you say is true, that's absolutely an acceptable approach. But that's not really the problem at hand here. The bigger issue is that Sxbbetyy appears to be believe that the alternative approach - reverting per STATUSQUO or NOCONSENSUS - is somehow misconduct, and that's simply not true. They're not arguing about if your approach is valid, they're arguing that its ''compulsory'', and they're attempting to report a user for not following your possible approach, which is completely meritless. ] ] 17:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Please do not put words in my mouth. The only reason this report exists is because Peter Southwood advised that this was how I should proceed if the editor participating in this no-consensus reverting continued to do so and was unreceptive to further discussion. (Both are true by admission of PSW themselves). ] (]) 18:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Yes, I've seen , but you presented the situation to them entirely in hypotheticals that lacks crucial context. You frame PSW as unwilling to engage in discussion but omit the fact that You accuse PSW of edit warring to keep their information in the article, but omit the fact that . I would think the near-unanimous rejection of this ANI report would indicate that this was not, in fact, a good thing to report. Best case scenario, this is archived with no action, but I'd be shocked if it didn't result in a ]. ] ] 18:44, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::I don't know why you are attempting to present the entire discussion on that talk page as some sort of proof that PSW was willing to engage in further discussion to halt the behavior this report is about. At no point whatsoever did PSW ever indicate anything like that; if they did this report wouldn't exist as the discussions on your talk page or Peter Southwood's page would have never needed to happen. Not to mention if you take the time to actually read the discussion, you see that most of it is on the specifics of the validity of the WP:SYNTH claim made by PSW, eventually culminating in PSW actually asserting that they will not stop change their position on this and then outright refusing to engage any further.
:::::::::::And now you accuse me of edit warring by citing the entire recent edit history of the page...this isn't fooling anyone who actually bothers to read any of the revert messages and examine the timeline of when they occurred (talk about omitting "crucial context").
:::::::::::Beyond just slandering my character, I don't really see what these kind of spurious claims accomplish. It wastes everyone's time, makes yourself look biased and hostile, and adds nothing to the conversation. Keep things civil please, I really shouldn't have to tell you of all people that basic expectation. ] (]) 02:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::Wait...are you seriously trying to suggest that, even though you were the only one who reverted him every single time, he was edit warring and you weren't? ] ] 02:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::If you are going to continue to twist words and make false claims immediately after being asked to keep things civil, maybe it would be best for all involved if you just moved on from this conversation. Sad that even has to be stated at this point, it should be a given. ] (]) 17:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Yet another IDHT response where you try to baselessly chastize me rather than address anything anyone is saying to you. ] ] 18:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::What a choice to post this exact type reply to my last message... not to mention the sheer absurdity of it. To claim that I've never addressed anyone's points in my replies is so easily and visibly wrong (literally this entire topic is full of my detailed replies to people's concerns, including this very reply) that it's almost insulting to the rest of the people participating in this or to anyone who even chooses to read that message. It's as if you think nobody can see the rest of this discussion (or even the comments directly above it). ] (]) 11:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Thank you for taking the time to respond and my apology for any inconvenience it may have caused. Ive tried to keep it as civil as possible, but there seems to be a very hostile air in this discussion by those with the dissenting opinion. As for how this situation is to be resolved, would it be appropriate to restore the currently disputed content with the appropriate tags (as it is sourced and was the statusquo on the page at the time of reversion)? Or is there something further that must be done here? I'm generally unfamiliar with how ANIs actually function. ] (]) 17:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:Have you considered starting an ]? The fact is that you made a ] addition to the article; someone else objected to it, which means you now ought to seek consensus ''for your addition''. As numerous people have told you, none of the relevant policies and guidelines (], ], ], etc) would allow you to make a recent addition the "default" the way you want, but more generally - the problem is that you're trying to dig through policy for something that will make your preferred version the default, allowing you to have it in the article without having to demonstrate consensus for it even in the face of challenges. Even if the policies and guidelines I listed ''were'' on your side this would still be a bad way to approach it. You have a conflict, your goal should be to resolve it by making consensus as clear as possible - figuring out what the crux of the dispute is and then, if you can't reach a compromise, holding an RFC to see where consensus lies. Also, I have to point out that just by a quick nose count of people who have weighed in on talk, I'm seeing a dispute that is now three-to-one against you. That ''is'' a consensus - not a massive one, maybe an RFC will pull in a bunch of people that say something else, but it doesn't make sense for you to keep demanding a consensus to remove something you added when there actually ''is'' such a consensus on talk. You've disagreed with their arguments but they're not obliged to ] you; ultimately if you think your arguments are so strong and theirs are so weak, the only real option for you at this point is to start an RFC and hope that you can demonstrate that there. --] (]) 04:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::As mentioned earlier in the discussion, this report is not an extension of the dispute on that article, nor is that what this report is about. Also, a RFC was already started for the topic about a week or so ago by PSW, but that occurred after he reverted the status quo, disputed content with discussion (repeatedly). As for the rest of your comment, Peter Southwood, an admin, has addressed what is the actual expectation. ] (]) 18:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::What? I never started an RfC. — ] (]; ]) 19:07, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I just checked and on 12/9/24 at ] you said the following, "Thanks – just wanted to mention I requested comments from ] and ] about 2 weeks ago."
::::Did that not actually happen? ] (]) 02:11, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::] is a specific process. Asking questions on a couple of Wikiprojects is not an RFC. ] (]) 02:22, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::That's fundamentally not what an RFC is. This is getting ridiculous... ] ] 03:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::It's almost like this is the very first time I've ever been involved in this kind of issue on Misplaced Pages before...seriously these kind of replies come off as rude and don't actually say anything meaningful or helpful. Ever since our conversation on your talk page you have made next to no real effort to engage in good faith and I find that highly disappointing to be coming from an admin. And my apology if I offended you at all at some point or if you have just "lost your patience" with me, but I don't see how that gives you the green flag to suddenly disregard ]. I certainly haven't, in spite of being on the receiving end of this. ] (]) 17:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I haven't said anything uncivil, I just keep calling you out when you say something incorrect. ] ] 18:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::], is a powerful force, I find it difficult to resist myself. ] (]) 18:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)


===Request for closure===
* If Callmebc is unblocked, it should be on the proviso that there is a topic ban from articles related to George W. Bush's National Guard service, interpreted liberally and to include all comments including on user talk, and on a permanent final warning about ]. See {{OTRS ticket|1194551|2007103010015799}} and {{OTRS ticket|1168813|2007111410017735}} for evidence of this editor's single-minded determination to pursue an agenda in violation of ], causing great offence to a living individual in the process. I am not in favour of unblocking, personally, but as I say, any unblock should be contingent on some form of editing restriction. The above comments about "accuracy above all else" do not augur well, indicating that Callmebc self-identifies as a bearer of ], rather than accepting or engaging the numerous legitimate criticisms. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 09:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Despite its large size, the consensus here is quite clear. There's no misconduct here, just standard following of procedures of ] and ], which is perfectly acceptable. Not a single person has suggested taking any action towards PerfectSoundWhatver. Outside of a a potential IDHT BOOMERANG, there's nothing left to be done here. Can someone close this? ] ] 14:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*: I don't have ] access, so I'll take your word for it. Since he appears to be mostly involved in the Killian Documents issues, and global warming, I'm not sure if he'll be willing to agree to that. However, he might, so I will consider broaching it with him after this discussion wraps up. He may be the bearer of ], but I think his comments show that he's realized that he has to compromise and engaged with us unenlightened ones, as well. --] (]) 09:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
:I second that. If there has been any edit-warring by any party that should be dealt with in the normal way. {{u|PerfectSoundWhatever}} has certainly done nothing wrong, and the OP will get blocked if they don't start listening to people pretty quickly. ] (]) 14:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::Exactly. And even that's probably unlikely, as most of the "edit warring" was singular reverts with days or weeks in between. It's far from a 3RR situation at least. ] ] 15:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:{{non-admin comment}} I don't think this conversation is going anywhere fast, other than seemingly coming to the conclusion that @] has done nothing wrong, which seems to be the opposite of what this ANI post was about. There's no edit warring here, and even if there was, it wouldn't be dealt with at this venue. Shut it down! ] (]) 16:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:In what way whatsoever is this editor's decision to revert the disputed content during the discussion "standard following of procedures of WP:STATUSQUO"? The literal first words that appear at that link are in bold and say, "'''Avoid reverting during discussion'''", followed by a detailed explanation of the actual proper procedure. And to make it very clear what it says, here is the literal first paragraph verbatim: "To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the '']'' '''during a dispute discussion'''. Instead, add an appropriate tag indicating the text is disputed. For an article, many of the ] are appropriate. For other pages, <code><nowiki>{{</nowiki>]<nowiki>}}</nowiki></code> is good. Leave the status quo and the tag in place until the discussion concludes." ] (]) 02:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::In what way is ''that'' your read of the consensus in the discussion above? ] ] 02:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::In what world do you logically come to that conclusion from a message that consist of almost entirely the word for word quote of the procedures described in WP:STATUSQUO, that directly counters the claim you just made? Are you saying it is "against consensus" simply because it presents a viewpoint you don't like and don't want to address? I don't see another reason why you would again twist my words, to the point of lunacy. And this is, once again, despite the fact that all of what has been said is literally within view.
:::Also, regarding the consensus. Out of everyone that has actually joined the discussion and all the messages sent (~90% of which are either from myself or you Serge), there have been only three people who have actually said anything in support of your interpretation of this. The rest either did not discuss the topic, did not express an opinion, or were Peter Southwood who supported the interpretation of WP:STATUSQUO as stated on its page. Seems like you're just trying to rush a end to the conversation to get the conclusion you want. ] (]) 15:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I'm saying there has been no consensus for anything you're arguing here. Not a single person has supported action against PSW. ] ] 15:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::The status quo ante bellum that shouldn't be reverted from is the version ''without the new content''. ] (]) 15:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== Creating the need to make 400,000 unnecessary edits ==
::: Agree with the above. Normally he would be allowed to use his talk page to argue his point but he abused it ''for days'' so no one should act like he deserves to be unblocked or any sympathy for his circumstances. Now, he should go through the process and ask via email. Frankly, I didn't realize he was getting to the point of OTRS tickets (I probably wouldn't have even offered to unblock if I knew he was that far gone) so Guy's topic ban has to be strictly enforced (I don't even want him on the talk pages there). Maybe even a requirement that he can only go on articles that don't have WP:BLP concerns? Either way, if he does "jump through all the hoops", I'll go to each of the talk pages and ask about him. Frankly, Haemo, I'm doing him a huge favor (as I feel this is going to take a lot of my time) and honestly, I'd prefer it if I felt that he realized that editing here is a privilege, not a right that can be abused and then "I'm sorry", "all is forgiven" after a diatribe against everyone. -- ] (]) 09:15, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


Can we please dp something about editors who make unnecessary changes to widely-used modules, and then need to change 400,000 talk pages to get the same result we had before the change? Thanks to change from last week, which removed the parameter "living" from the bannershell, we now have more than 400,000 pages in ]. After the "cleanup" by ] (and perhaps others), we will have the exact same result as we had last week, no new functionality, no new categories, no improvement at all, but a lot of flooded watchlists.
::::Well, he's a passionate guy &mdash; he's shown me as much in his emails. I think he has experience which might be of use to the project; however, the problems related to his behavior are an issue for the community to settle. Passion and conviction are not a recipe for temperance &mdash; as his past behavior has shown. However, I think he understand now that temperance is necessary to participate in this community. As you can see, he's made some serious concessions and appears willing to talk about things. This is a big step forward, and means a lot more than just an "I'm sorry". --] (]) 09:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


I tried to get him to stop at ], to no avail. This isn't the first time, as you can see from that discussion. ] (]) 14:57, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
* This editor should not be unblocked at this time. I have had first hand experience in dealing with him. Instead, advise him to participate successfully in another Wiki, such as WikiNews, for three to six months and then he can apply for reinstatement. - ] <sup>]</sup> 09:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
:If you want to discuss {{tl|WikiProject banner shell}}, you should do so at ].
:As for the size of the category, I have no plans to empty it, and was only going to update a few hundred more categories and templates. &nbsp;&nbsp;<b>~</b>&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:16px;">] (] ⋅])</span>&nbsp; 15:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::You made nearly 2000 of such edits in the last few hours, and when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries. I have no way to know how many more you planned now or in future runs. Starting a discussion at the module would hardly stop you. ] (]) 15:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::"{{tq|when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries}}": incorrect. Since you wrongly thought I was making cosmetic edits, i.e. "{{tq|no change in output or categories}}", the category was to inform you that they are not cosmetic.
:::Regarding a BRFA for the bulk of the category, that's looking more likely since the category appears to be neglected. &nbsp;&nbsp;<b>~</b>&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:16px;">] (] ⋅])</span>&nbsp; 15:29, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Unnecessary removing a synonym and then making thousands of edits to remove the hidden cat created by that unnecessary change is not really any better than making cosmetic edits, the end result is that nothing has changed for the affected pages at all. ] (]) 15:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Not unnecessary. The Lua code is very complex and removing the need the support various settings makes the code both easier to read and maintain. As always, editors that don't want to see these edits can hide these by hiding the tag "talk banner shell conversion". ] (]) 12:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::It doesn´t look as if the specific code to have these synonyms was very complicated though, the argument that in some cases two synonyms were used on one page with conflicting values was more convincing. And the edits I complained about did ''not'' have that tag, so no, even if people knew about hiding that tag, it wouldn't have helped here at all. ] (]) 16:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:This was discussed in detail on ]. Ideally these edits would be done by an approved bot so they do not appear on people's watchlists. The main benefit is to merge the {{para|blp}} and {{para|living}} parameters. When both are in use, we find they often get conflicting values because one gets updated and the other does not. &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 17:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::Isn't it more logical to first have a bot cleanup the unwanted parameter, then remove it from the template, and only then start populating the cat with the somehow remaining or since added instances? In any case, this is a typical bot task and shouldn't be done with massive AWB runs. ] (]) 17:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Yes, probably. But we have this mechanism already set up and I assumed {{ul|Cewbot}} would deal with these as part of its normal activities. Happy to look at other options - maybe discuss on template talk? &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 18:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I don't know what this is about, but if the OP is correct, it is totally absurd to edit 400,000 talk pages for a tweak. Discussing at a template talk page monitored by those focused on the template would simply hide the issue. ] (]) 03:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Edits like these should ''always'' be bots, so they can be filtered from watchlists. There are numerous other editors who have recently engaged in the mass additional of categories to articles which I had to ask them to stop as my watchlist was flooded. ]] 13:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::Hiding bot edits from watchlists is not a viable option for many editors, since it also hides any non-bot edits that predate the bot edit (], 2007, unassigned). Users ], ], ], ], {{lang|la|et al}} edit with such high frequency that hiding their edits leads to an unacceptable proportion of watchlist items not appearing. {{Small|(Also, Citation bot's edits should usually be reviewed, since it has a non-negligible error rate and its activators typically don't review its output, exceptions noted.)}}{{pb}}The code for maintaining two aliases for one parameter cannot possibly be so complex as to warrant a half million edits. If one of the two "''must''" undergo deprecation, bundle it into Cewbot's task. If the values don't match, have the banner shell template populate a mismatch category.{{pb}}In general, if a decision is made to start treating as an error some phenomenon that has previously not been a problem, and that decision generates a maintenance category with tens or hundreds of thousands of members, it is a bad decision and the characterisation of the phenomenon as "erroneous" should be reversed.{{pb}}At minimum, any newly instanced maintenance task scoped to over a hundred thousand pages should come before the community for approval at a central venue. ] (]) 15:19, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
:::{{Small|Also, like, if only one of {{para|blp}} and {{para|living}} {{tqq|gets updated}}, shouldn't the net result be pretty obvious? Valid updates should really only go one direction. ] (]) 15:24, 25 December 2024 (UTC)}}


* Is it just me or are talk pages like ] just perpetual ] issues where a very small number of editors (frequently 5 or less) make major changes that affect thousands of articles, all without involving the broader community through, at minimum, places like ]? ]]<sup>]</sup> 04:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:* Do you really think that would help? The issue here is behavior; our sister projects are not test-beds for problem editors, and we should not use them as such. If ''we'' refuse to unblock him due to behavior problems, why would should inflict that behavior on a sister project in order test the waters for an unblock? It seems backwards &mdash; if he's trustworthy enough to edit WikiNews, then he should be trustworthy enough to edit Misplaced Pages &mdash; the negation of this should apply equally. --] (]) 09:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
*{{ping|Fram|Tom.Reding|Kanashimi|Primefac}} I got AWB working again. If cewbot would take time for making the changes, and if this needs attention soon, then should I file a request for that particular bot task? —usernamekiran ] 06:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::* Sister projects have much less visibility as Misplaced Pages. Those who merely want to soapbox won't bother. Those who have a sincere desire to participate will. - ] <sup>]</sup> 09:58, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
*:The robot is in operation... ] (]) 09:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::* I'm not sure that's compelling. Perhaps they have a sincere desire to participate in a proper ''encyclopedia'', not WikiNews or Simple English Misplaced Pages? An editor could very well be ready to turn over a new leaf, but not want to spend half a year doing something they have no interest in as a litmus test for whether they want to use Misplaced Pages as a soapbox. Many editors who want to contribute in good faith, and ''have'' turned over a new leaf would balk at such a suggestion and refuse. It's seem pretty punitive, and serves little purpose &mdash; if he's unblocked here, and starts soapboxing, then he'll have violated the terms he's already agreed to, and will be blocked. I don't believe in sending our problem users to other projects, especially as part of litmus tests which have no precedent (IIRC) and little evidence that they will actually do what we want. --] (]) 10:15, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
*::yay! —usernamekiran ] 16:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


:Meanwhile, the category has grown to over 800,000 pages. Perhaps next time an RfC to determine whether creating such a large cleanup task is warranted, would be better? ] (]) 16:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*JzG, I have OTRS access but can't see that one, either... o.O - ] &#124; <sup>] / ]</sup> 09:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
:{{re|Fram}} this is logical. We should also make it a policy (or at least a guideline), something along the lines "if change would lead to edits/updating more than XYZ pages, a consensus should be achieved on a venue with a lot of visibility". Like {{u|Silver seren}} mentioned above, sometimes a formal consensus/discussion takes place, but it happens on obscure talk pages. —usernamekiran ] 14:01, 25 December 2024 (UTC)


== ] ==
::I really don't support him being unblocked ''yet'', I know that unblock consideration can take place anytime but the last time he displayed disruptive behavior was about three weeks ago, ''while blocked'' this shows disregard for losing his editing privilege wich makes me question his desire to return, not to the point of assuming bad faith but I have to wonder if his intention is to push his past agenda in a more subtle manner. I wouldn't even consider unblocking this user without severe editing limitations like the ones presented above. - ] 10:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
:::Just to clarify, he's come up with those above by himself as suggestions for restrictions he feels are reasonable. --] (]) 10:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


::::I was refering to Guy's topic ban, and the subsecuent comment that sugested that said ban was extended to talk pages. - ] 10:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
::::: Callmebc has repeatedly used talk pages to promote precisely the same offending content that was a problem in article space, and his abuse of his talk page for this was a factor in it being protected. I fixed the OTRS ticket links, incidentally. Sorry about that. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 16:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


] is making wholesale reverts of my edits in contravention to guidelines. ] (]) 19:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Ok, I guess I can go along with this. The tone of his message is reasonable and the editing conditions he's come up with for himself look quite decent. Someone will always be around to enforce them. I don't think a topic-ban is necessary - if he comes back and does the same thing over-and-over-again we can just slap the ban back on. Cheers, ] <sup> ]</sup> 10:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
:You're removing demographic categories and templates by blanking them out; irreligion still deals with religion no matter your argument. That's definitely not compliant with ] and clearly vandalism. There's no action to take here except that you need to stop removing these categories and templates. <span style="font-family: Roboto;">''']''' <span style="color:#00008B">•</span> <small>''(])''</small></span> 19:42, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::And you are now '''required''' to cite how your edits meet ]; spamming it in edit summaries is not discussion. <span style="font-family: Roboto;">''']''' <span style="color:#00008B">•</span> <small>''(])''</small></span> 19:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::While doing routine vandal patrol, I came across what seemed to be a hasty and massive removal of content, being done in a very directed and personal manner.
::::After looking at the persistent removal, and communicating, I restored the well-drawn categories.
::::Hopefully, this is easily resolved.
:::] (]) 20:40, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::43*, do not continue to revert these category removals without discussing them first. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::THere is nothing to discuss. The guidelines are clear. What needs to be done is editors need to be familiar with the cat guidelines. We don't discuss whether the sky is blue do we? ] (]) 02:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::THey are not well drawn, it was not hasty, it was not massive, and it was not "personal". It was directed because they all had the same issue. ] (]) 02:07, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Editors should not blindly revert. They should be '''required''' to understand the guideleines. ] (]) 02:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)


I gave up editing because there were too many problems that the wiki communtity is not sorting out. One of them is treating anon editors as second class wikicitizens.
* I really do think we need to make it crystal clear that ''no'' comments about the individual concerned will be tolerated. Callmebc has offended the complainant, and the best course will unquestionably be for Callmebc to refrain form making any further comment in respect of this person. If that is acceptable to Callmebc then I have no objection; if Callmebc will not undertake to leave this person alone then I cannot support unblocking. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 16:34, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


Another problem is "this is how it is so we are going to leave it like this for years and years" and this is at the expense of the quality of WP.
I am a firm believer in second chances, but I think the myriad chances given to this user to shape up have been completely exhausted. It's rather easy for uninvolved spectators to say he should be allowed to try to edit articles again, but as a person who's borne the brunt of his attacks and incivility, I wouldn't consider it an option. ~ ] (]) 19:43, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
:I'm not exactly saying that; rather, I'm giving him an avenue to express his desire to contribute, and the concessions he's willing to make. You've mentioned that your concerns stem from his incivility and personal attacks. What more would you like to see from him that is not already expressed in terms of what he's agreed to? --] (]) 23:48, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


I can't remember the specific category guideline for the edits I did but is the undoing editors need to look it up. Categorisation is something that a lot of editor do not understand. Go and put a notice on WikkiProoject Categorisation and you will fing that there is support for my edits.
:: Well, my first restriction on him potentially is that he stay off article space completely for one month, once and if he's unblocked; only talk space edits. I want to see if he is actually interested in discussing his views and can get others to agree based on persuasion, not by force. -- ] (]) 02:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


WP could be sooo much better. ] (]) 02:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I'm a non-admin who has had a lot of contact with "BC" since before he registered as Callmebc. While our opinions about the Killian Documents are quite different, I would like to note for the record that he has helped improve our articles about those documents in some fairly significant ways. "BC" has sometimes drifted into a self-defeating pattern of incivility (this appears to be cyclical, as do his bursts of amazing energy), but I'd like him to get one more chance. ] 03:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


:I'm sorry, but "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone" is an indication you should be trying to do better instead of telling us we should do the same. If you're not willing to actually explain why guidelines vindicate your changes, then being right sometimes isn't enough if you want to make things better. Communication is the process, not something ancillary to it. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 02:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Since ArbCom determined that ] deserves a second chance, then this erudite and productive editor deserves several - and promptly. ]] 14:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
::GO and read the guidelines. It does not need discussion. ] (]) 02:15, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Discussion is required when other editors ask you questions in good faith in order to resolve present disputes and prevent future ones. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 02:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::Bear in mind this is WP and not social media. ] (]) 02:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::How do you get the impression that "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone". ] (]) 02:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::No. You brought this here. The ] is on ''you'' to explain how the guidelines justify your edits, not to say "go look it up". Also {{tqq|How do you get the impression that "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone"}} - because that's exactly what you said. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::It's not unreasonable in many cases to link to a very specific passage of a guideline and expect an editor to understand its meaning as regards a pertinent dispute, but you can't just fail to clearly articulate your argument while also insisting it's vindicated somewhere within the full text of a guideline. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 02:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:Content dispute. Bold edits were reverted; next step is discussion, probably at ]. If there is dispute over interpretation of the guideline you can consider leaving a pointer at ]. If there are any categories that shouldn't be used at all that can be discussed at ]. ] (]) 03:31, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::The content dispute could have been discussed on any of the talk pages. Yet it was brought here first. ] (]) 06:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::When a content dispute involves several pages it is often <small>though not always</small> best to centralize discussion. Misunderstanding ANIs purpose and bringing content disputes here is a common and understandable error; best just to point people at appropriate ] when that happens. ] (]) 06:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)


Not overly impressed by 43's comments above. But do wish to note that their ] of ] from at least one BLP appears to have been correct. The subsequent reversion of that removal is misfortune. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
: Callmebc was deleting my edits because he couldn't find an online copy of cited material, and later because he couldn't find what was in it. He could still do that under his understanding of truth: "The only exceptions I'll will be blatant vandalism and substantial undiscussed changes I have problems with in terms of accuracy and content -- I will just revert the first as a matter of course, and will revert the second with a note on the editor's home page to please discuss first on the Talk page." Only his unnecessary Talk messages will increase. -- ] (]) 03:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
::Callmebc doesn't have ('special counsel') Giano on his team, so I should imagine that if he pulls a stunt like calling good faith editors vandals and reverting them, he will get chopped off at the legs again - this time justifiably.
::Callmebc needs to promptly give the undertaking to refrain from any personal comment whatever concerning the "complainant" (as Guy suggested) and then he should be unblocked. A preliminary step should be for his talk page to be unprotected so that he can give plain and unequivocal assurances there in full view of the aggrieved parties (and, hopefully, those same parties can confirm there and then, on Callmebc's talk page that they accept the undertakings in good faith). Misplaced Pages is a ] project and Callmebc needs to demonstrate that he has learnt that now; his relayed statement above certainly talks the talk - unprotecting his talk page would mean we could all be satisfied that he walks the walk too. ]] 05:29, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
::: Yes, just exactly that. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:49, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
* I hope I don't seem like a sucker here, but it seems that callmebc recognizes the problems that lead to his block/ban and will endeavor to prevent them in the future. I, for one, would be supportive of a trial unblock to see how it goes. ---] <small>(]/]/])</small> 16:51, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


== User:ZanderAlbatraz1145 Civility and Content #2 ==
Passionate at times. If he can control that, he will be a great editor. In addition, notice that, to the best of our knowledge, he has not used socks which supports the view that he is a good editor, just loses it at times. Give him a chance. ] (]) 06:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
*{{userlinks|ZanderAlbatraz1145}}
This user has engaged in a lengthy display of disruption. Namely through incessant incivility I have noticed .


Instances such as , , on , etc. Users such as {{Ping|Waxworker}} and {{Ping|Jon698}} can speak to their experiences, I'll outline mine.
*'''unblock''' It is Christmas. Give him a chance (again). Seriously, he states he will make a strong effort to improve. He can always be blocked again if he reverts to his old ways. <b>]<sup>] or ]</sup></b> 17:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
:Another non-adminstrator who's had exchanges with callmebc in the past; well said, Gtstricky, and a Merry Christmas /or insert winter holiday of choice/ to you all. ] (]) 17:51, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


On December 10, I noticed on the article ] page several additions were made that didn't adhere to the article's purpose. Zander restored these with an introductory summary rife with . For the most part there was an attempt to discuss the issue we had, but ultimately did not see eye to eye. I asserted I'd be escalating the issue to garner more substantive dialogue around it, Zander's response includes a needless . I made some attempts at engaging the topic at the article's talk page, in addition to WikiProject Film, it was over a week that saw no input. I would go on to state that (at the time) in two days, I would restore the page to it's status quo. I would do so, . Zander , and after another terse interaction, I moved to nominate the article for deletion, finding with the conflicting views of what Unrealized meant, it was too open ended and led to these lists being essentially trivia. Since then, Zander has elected to take an antagonistic approach towards me, making swipes they openly admit , and now that I am putting said comments , Zander is now doing the editing equivalent of mockingly repeating me, with edits such as and .
'''It's now five days''' since the matter of Callmebc's block and user talk page protection was raised here.


This editor displays no interest in conducting themselves cordially or cooperatively on this website. ] 23:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Although ] does not seem to violently disapprove of the protection being removed, he's still omitted to un-protect ] (I also requested that ).
:I've given them a warning for canvassing: - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:08, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
: - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::And they appear to be continuing editing while ignoring here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::This feels par for the course for Zander frankly. As noted with the bit about Zander reverting after an explicit edit summary saying not to and there being two days worth of me saying that edit would be made and they made no objections until the move was made. They disengaged from discussion but only re-engaged when the situation changed to their disliking. ] 02:07, 25 December 2024 (UTC)


== SPA ] back at it on ] ==
Mindful of in another matter: "''Since administrators are strongly discouraged from reversing one another's blocks, it is of particular importance that blocking admins respond to good-faith requests to review blocks they have made. Similarly, administrators who perform independent reviews of unblock requests are expected to familiarize themselves with the full facts of the matter before marking the unblock request "declined."''" and "''It is important for all users, but especially administrators, to be aware of their own agendas, feelings and passions, and to deal with them appropriately, avoiding both biased editing and ill-considered administrative actions.''", can anyone now suggest a way forward since the consensus seems to be to exercise some generosity of spirit here? ]] 02:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


Hi, all, I'd like some assistance with the SPA ], who's been POV pushing on the ] article since . A quick view of their extremely short edit history shows that their sole focus is on pushing a vaccine-denialist POV on that and similar COVID-related topics. Started out on the talk page and BLPN, but now they've graduated to edit-warring on the article itself; they were active in June, made a single related edit in October, but now they appear to be . They've already , and have received an warning--to which they were . Would appreciate a more permanent resolution, either a COVID-19 topic ban or just an indef considering their SPA status, so they don't just go back into hibernation and then turn up again like a bad penny. (And yeah, given this context, I don't love the implications of the username "Tikitorch2", either.) Thanks, ]&nbsp;]] 05:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:It looks like no admin is willing to unblock. Having said that, I will make an offer. I've had a little experience with Callmebc and think that he is capable of being a constructive editor -- even a very good editor -- if he can rein in his passions. I'm willing to unblock Callmebc and give him advice as to how he can proceed constructively. The condition I require is that if he goes over the line, I will reinstate the block ''at my sole and uncontested discretion.'' I'm willing to serve as an informal advisor but am not willing to get into an endless back-and-forth. If he gets into a rut of ] or other inappropriate behavior, I re-block and wash my hands of the matter. ] (]) 03:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


:]? ] (]) 06:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::I think that's very fair, Raymond. I hope Callmebc and Guy will think so too.
::{{duck}}. I'm sending this ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 11:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::By the way, I've stolen your Highland Cattle for my user page. ]] 03:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::, so might just be generic disruption. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:What are you implying with regard to my username? My edit history has been limited to trying to correct two red flags that stood out so much that I followed the citations when I was searching these scientists who were in the news for censorship. It has been enlightening learning how wikipedia selectively chooses secondary sources but discourages the use of primary sources to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible.
:For my two attempted contributions to Misplaced Pages, the two red flags were pretty dramatic to prompt me to check out the citations--Sunetra Gupta's article implied more than 1 in 1000 people in England died from Covid in spring 2020 in an effort to discredit her, which was trivially easy to google as untrue. I corrected that without really changing the overall narrative. The article for Martin Kulldorff...I would probably not have spent time looking at the sources or realized how unscientific Kulldorff's critics were had there not been such superfluous "Wikivoice" editorializing and synthesizing suggesting Kulldorff lied in an essay to the public. ] (]) 06:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::] are not to be used for anything but simple facts about a subject. They absolutely are not to be used {{tqq|to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible}} because that is ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Not sure why you felt the need to repeat what I said. Maybe I am the sock puppeteer! ] (]) 03:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::What I am implying is that such a username in the context of an account pushing COVID-denialist rhetoric that flies in the face of the sources and Misplaced Pages policy is . Anyway, this editor continues to be a drain of editor time and attention. ]&nbsp;]] 14:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Ah an absurd, convoluted, and contrived personal attack. Assuming anyone but you knew tiki torches were present at a political event where someone was killed, why would I choose my username based on that? Tikitorches provide light, warmth, and keep the mosquitos away. I guess its not surprising an editor named writ keeper attacks the editor rather than effectively debating the subject of the edit. ] (]) 03:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Even if it was a personal attack, making one ''back'' isn't going to fly here. Knock it off. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::], your edits are being examined at ANI. This is not a pleasant experience, I'll admit. So, it's best for you not to dig yourself into a hole. I know the instinct is to defend yourself but it doesn't help your situation to come out swinging. It's probably to your benefit to address any concerns that have been raised and say no more than that. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


== ] ==
::Listen, just relax. I too am willing to unblock him, given the discussion here, but I want everyone to be able to chime in, and to get Callmebc's opinion about some of the suggestions made in the thread. I have been in constant contact with him via and email, and he is pleased with the way things are going. There is no need to create any additional conflict over this issue. --] (]) 04:08, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
{{atop|result=Just officially closing this discussion as the account involved has been globally blocked. If an editor has Spore on your Watchlist and you see this occurring again, contact your local administrator. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
This user made 500 edits to their user page which were all completely useless (] to inflate their edit count) and then once receiving extended-confirmed permissions vandalized ] by copypasting another article. Their user page shows them editing and counting to 500. ]] 04:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)


:It's a ], and I just reported to AIV. ] (]) 04:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I oppose the unblock, as an editor who sees that callmebc still thinks he's got 'The Truth', as evidenced by his opening statement justifying all he's previously done: "I put accuracy above all else, and I don't play well with others whom I suspect of not being honest." That's "I have The Truth, thus I did the right thing and you all can't see it." Why would we continue to invite someone back whose 'apology' is 'yeah, but i was right and they weren't so they started it and i was just fixing everyone's mess'? No. No more agenda warriors and POV pushers, we have plenty. ] (]) 14:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::::With respect, Thuranx, I don't read his statement that way. I read it as him being honest and non-delusional about his own innate motivation and world outlook and recognising that it will take a big and constant effort from him to adapt to our collaborative way of doing things.
::::But I do think that this is a dialogue that you (and possibly others) need to be having with Callmebc himself - which is why I would strongly plead again for his talk page to be unprotected right now. ]] 19:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


::Would it be possible to put up some kind of filter to alert for this? Something that…say…catches when more than 25 edits are made in a single space (user space for example) or something that would trip if the edits added less than 5 characters consistently? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::A little late to the party (been away for Christmas) but I'd just like to add that I support an unblock and am willing to do it myself. I'm going to leave that action up to Haemo, of course, but I wanted it to be clear that there are admins willing to unblock. - ] ] 03:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:::There is a filter for this. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:AbuseLog&wpSearchUser=International+Space+Station0&offset=20241222044736, "New account unusual activity" covers exactly this. ] (]) 05:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::That's three admins who have clearly stated they are willing to unblock and I concur that unblocking is best left to Haemo who says that he is in constant dialogue, but what about the page protection? We need to be fair not just to Callmebc but to those who have reservations and wish some dialogue so that they can be reassured (or otherwise). Would one of you admins please unprotect the talk page right now as I can not see any objections being voiced to that unprotect after nearly a week of discussing Callmebc's block and user talk page protection. ]] 07:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
*This account has been globally blocked as an LTA so it shouldn't be an issue. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:25, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*:At what point is it appropriate to selectively delete their hundreds of edits of nonsense from the page history?
*:Or is that just something that isn't done? &ndash; ] (]) (]) 05:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*::If you are talking ], there is rarely a good reason for it's use at present. If instead you mean ] see ] and ]. ] (]) 05:33, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::I've gone ahead and revdel'd the lot of them, as cut-and-pasting from other articles without proper attribution is copyvio and thus RD1able. Selective deletion (making the edits go away from the history) is probably not going to happen, if it's even technically possible for an article with almost *9500* revisions (I know ]!). - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== Disruptive editor on ] ==
== GusChiggins21 blocked for edit warring by involved admin ==


User ] has repeatedly removed reliably sourced refs to the genres infobox by removing ] simply because they don't believe it to be correct as the ref is "new" and that the artist isn't that genre. I had sent them two warnings now and also explained that's not how this works, so they decided to add more genres with refs that don't even mention the genres they included. I do not believe this editor is going to cooperate. ] (]) 08:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Hi everyone. ] has been blocked for edit warring by an admin who was involved in the edit war. As I have stated on his page, I believe this was a personal block, and unfortunately, was far from the first personal block for this admin. To make matters worse, the person did not even violate 3RR, and the block was for 1 week for a first time offens; the only warning received was from another person who was just as involved in the edit war (believe me, those kind of warnings only exacerbate the situation). If this bit with RKLawton/Sarah777 tells us anything, it was that this kind of stuff is not right. The block was (surprisingly) declined without much comment, so I have brought it here. ] (]) 02:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:On the surface, the block looks inappropriate and the {{tl|fact}} tags look appropriate. I'll admit, though, that this is way over my head so I may be missing something ... but in the cases I examined, the places where he added fact tags seemed to be material that was not addressed in the existing cites. You should notify Raul of this discussion so that he can participate if he would like. You should also notify the admin who declined the user's unblock request. --] (]) 02:45, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::Given what I've seen I would unblock and ask the involved admin to recuse. As a noob I feel uncomfortable undoing the actions of an other admin.--] 02:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::Then maybe as a noob, you should look at the facts of the case, and offer an opinion that actually makes sense. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 04:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::: Woha, don't bite his head off. <strong>]<small>•]</small></strong> 10:10, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::Of course, this is par for the course for Herr Executioner. ] (]) 13:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::::::I don't know why that made me LOL, but it did. :) ] 00:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:First, GusChiggins is involved in an roving edit war on many intelligent design related articles with half-a-dozen editors who patrol those articles. They tend to attract POV pushers (like him). He was warned of his disruptive behavior, and persisted in it anyway. Moreover, EvilSpartan claims I am involved in this roving edit war. This is false. I haven't reverted any ID related article in two weeks or more (not withstanding the revert I did at the time I blocked him). The block is legitimate on its face. And lastly, I stand by every admin action I've ever done, EvilSpartan's insinuations not withstanding. If he has a problem with my previous actions, come out and say it. Otherwise, it's clear that they are what they are - empty claims, without merit. ] (]) 03:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


:User:Pillowdelight changed the genre list of When the Pawn... which originally had been a variation of certain genres: Art pop, jazz rock, art rock, alternative rock, jazz pop, chamber pop, all of which are somewhat accurate and agreed upon by various editors of this page over many years. It was changed to just Alt pop, a genre that is used to describe the newer sounds of pop in the early 2010s with Lorde, Sky Ferreira and Lana del rey. It is not a genre that fits the album hence it has never before user:Pillowdelight been described as such beyond what her poor source says, a Fiona Apple revisit (that is not even about When the pawn.. specifically) from a new, small and virtually unheard of web magazine. Sources such as Rateyourmusic, allmusic and Pitchfork are far more accurate and robust and that's why this album has never been described as alt pop. That genre did not exist at the time of the release of the album. The source needs to be accurate, it is not. It's not an album review, it is a fluff article about Fiona Apple by a small web magazine. It's not even about When the pawn... specifically, it makes no sense. I think the other editors agree, it is inaccurate.
His editing on ] certainly constituted ] and most likely 3RR. I haven't looked with a microscope to see whether 3RR was formally violated, but that doesn't matter: the purpose of 3RR is to forestall edit warring of the type that GusChiggins21 was engaged in, not to provide an inviolable right to a certain number of reverts per 86,400 seconds. ] (]) 03:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:Allmusic and pitchfork are far better sources. I have added both as sources. I didn't change the genre list, I simply changed it back to the genre list that had stood there the longest before user:Pillowdelight changed it a few months ago for the first time, having never touched this page before yet complaining about other editors. ] (]) 18:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::{{ping|Longislandtea}} I removed the genres because they're unsourced, which I stated in many edit summaries you keep reverting, as well as on your talk page. It doesn't matter that just because you believe a source another user added calling the album alternative pop is incorrect and unreliable because it's "new, small and virtually unheard of" is a ridiculously excuse. Read ] it states — {{xt|genres must be stated and referenced in the body of the article; personal opinions or original research must not be included.}} The sources you have added specifically from Pitchfork don't state the genres you've listed. ] (]) 20:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Sources need to be '''legitimate''' and''' relevant'''. Your source is not relevant and it is disputed. Pitchfork is added because they describe the album as an alternative album several times in the review and the genre category is ROCK. What is alternative and rock? Alternative rock. That is how the album was marketed. You can't cherrypick a single article to make a case for a genre that the album absolutely is not in. I will remove the Pitchfork source, that's fine. There's numerous ones including from Allmusic that clearly state that it is an alternative rock album. The album was even added to Misplaced Pages's page for alt rock albums ages ago. This is very uncontroversial. Just having alternative rock is also lacking; jazz fusion, art pop (the album is already added on the wikipedia page for art pop albums) and art rock are accurate too and have been there for ages but alas! Let's get rid of it all to only serve your opinion. Numerous albums have unsourced genres might I add, but the vast of amount of editors agree to it because they know these accurately describe the album, these are the scenes that the album and artist comes from and sourcing for genres can often times be lacking. In that case, rather than trying to look for BAD sources, it's better to agree with the consensus. In our case, we do have sources. Rateyourmusic has been used as a source for adding art pop, alternative rock, jazz pop, fusion, art rock and chamber pop as genres before. ] (]) 20:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Here's the page for what is considered acceptable sources {{lw|Acceptable sources}}.
::::''Relevance. Sources must be relevant--there must be some reason for the reader to care about what the author has to say. For example, the opinion of a random individual on the presidency of George W. Bush, as published in a letter to the editor of a major newspaper, is not relevant; and thus should not be included--even though it is published, traceable to its author, and given in a reputable publication. Relevance can be imputed several ways--through explicit personal knowledge, through subject-matter authority, through general notability of the author, through demonstrable correlation with the opinion(s) of a large group of people, etc.''
::::A large group of people, the editors of When the Pawn...'s page throughout the years, thousands of people on music reviewing sites and numerous music journalists from legitimate publications do not agree with what this one article you cherrypicked states.
::::''Note that this policy is the minimum standard for inclusion as a reference in Misplaced Pages. Sources may meet this standard and still not be authoritative, reliable, accurate, free from bias, or undisputed. Sources which meet this minimum standard but which fail to meet stricter standards may be used, but should be used with caution. In particular, such sources should be explicitly attributed to their author(s) or publisher(s) in an article's prose (rather than being presented as fact with the author only given in the notes), and disputes considering the source's veracity should be described.''
::::Meaning you can't just add any genre because some random source says it when it goes against larger and more reliable sources as well as it is controversial.
::::Thank you and please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand. ] (]) 21:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::]. Note that accusing editors of vandalism when they are not, in fact, vandalising can be considered a ], so I'd suggest you strike that comment. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Okay, I strike. ] (]) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::You didn't actually strike any comments. To do so, do this <nowiki><s>Comment</s></nowiki> which will make it look like this <s>Comment</s>. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::<s> please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand.</s> ] (]) 22:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Longislandtea}} How is the source considered not relevant and where was this dispute? AllMusic ''does not'' call the album alternative rock at all within its article. Rate Your Music is also not a source it's user generated which is against Misplaced Pages. I really wish an admin would comment on this because this is getting absolutely nowhere. ] (]) 21:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Here's another source describing it as an alternative rock and jazz fusion album
:::::https://www.the-solute.com/the-solute-record-club-fiona-apple-when-the-pawn/
:::::Alt pop is not accurate. If you're so adamant about alt pop, please argue why. It is completely inaccurate and you have one singular source over music journalists and music sites. Allmusic does categorize it as alternative rock, Pitchfork has categorized it as rock since 1999 of its release. There was NO Alt-pop at the time. It still isn't. These are different genres. Art pop is not Alt pop. You edited the page one time in October 2024 only to get rid of the genre list that editors agreed upon to add Alt pop which makes no sense whatsoever. ] (]) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I have now added a new source to the genre list. If you have any problems with the new source, tell me. But it's much more accurate this way. It's still sad to see the whole genre list that was originally there, so much more descriptive and fitting, hacked away but oh well. ] (]) 21:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Pitchfork's categorizations mean basically nothing. They have ten categories, one of which is "Pop/R&B", and another of which is "Global". By the way, you should just stop caring about this, because sources misclassify genres of music chronically and everywhere you look. Take your passion to RateYourMusic. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:All of this discussion should be taking place on the article's talk page (which neither editor has used). ]&nbsp;] 21:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::{{ping|Schazjmd}} I'm awaiting for an admin to respond. This conversation is getting nowhere hence the reason why I brought it here in the first place. I've tried to explain to the user on their talk page along with this entire thread and it's getting nowhere. {{ping|The Bushranger}} you left a comment but could you please share your opinion on the dispute? Or possibly ping an admin who's familiar with music if this isn't your area of familiarity? ] (]) 21:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::There was no reason to bring this conversation here. I talked to you directly but go no real reply or any arguments despite adding sources and explaining why it's not an Alt pop album. I've explained to you well enough. Please stop trying to get admins to ban me simply because I (and other editors) recognize that the genre list that you got rid of was far more fitting. There's a new genre list now with sources but it is not Alt-pop. The album was already added to the wikipedia album pages for Alternative rock and art pop. I'm familiar with these genres and Fiona Apple specifically to know that it's accurate hence why the genre list has been that way for years. If you're adamant about sources, there is a source. Accusing me of not sourcing should be considered a false accusation at this point. Not all sources are equal either and I've tried explaining that to you. ] (]) 21:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::], you were given good advice which is to have this discussion on the article talk page which neither editor has posted at yet. This is a content dispute. If no action has been taken yet by an administrator, it's likely because they don't agree with your statement that action needs to be taken. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Okay, will do. Thank you Liz. ] (]) 22:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)


=== Irrelevant sources and unnecessary changes to genre list on {{pagelinks|When the Pawn...}} ===
:As one of the editors who "patrol" these articles (love that terminology), GusChiggins activities were, at first, not very concerning. But I think 6RR exceeds my personal patience level (which, as most of you know, is about 4.7 seconds), irrespective of what the validity of his edits. However, since the validity of those edits are germane to the conversation, let's just say that the preponderance of evidence supports Michael Behe's absolute lack of support in science, notwithstanding the learned opinions of B and Evil Spartan. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 03:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:: Adding one or two fact tags maybe, but this sort of isn't the way to win friends and influence people. ] 03:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


On October 22 2024, {{lu|Pillowdelight}} changed the genre list that has stood in place for years and has been a variation of the same variety of genres: Art pop, art rock, jazz, alternative rock, jazz rock, chamber pop and jazz pop. Across the biggest music sites, this is what the album is described as. The user changed it to Alt pop using a single irrelevant and unreliable source. The album is not described as such anywhere else. The user is going against the general consensus. Sources have now been added to the genre list and I don't feel as though that would mean I'm breaking any rules. The user is threatening to get another editor banned because they're uncooperative with how us other editors feel the genre list should look like. It's an album that has been categorized as rock by Pitchfork at the time of its release and was added to rock charts when released too.
:One more thing. Did B or Evil Spartan, the obvious unbiased individuals that they are, fail to read over the fairly large number of warnings given GusChiggins? Well, just in case you missed them, and I know it was difficult, since there were SOOOO many, but here are a few.
Here's how the genre list has looked over a long period of time, without much controversy from editors not readers:
:*
:* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1178937091 from 2023
:*
:*
:*-Note this was done by me.
:*
:This must be a world record for a user only around for about 30 days. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 03:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1049316366 from 2021
Essentially, GusChiggins has quickly engaged in ] in violation of ], apparently gaming the system though this is probably due to sincerely held beliefs and misunderstandings about policy rather than deliberate mischief. To take an example, a fact tag is added with the comment ''The statement that they are "plausible link" need citation.'' when the next reference cited (at the end of the following sentence) covers the point in detail. GusChiggins does not grasp or accept ], and supports fighting for a portrayal of evolution that deviates from the scientific consensus. The block for edit warring is amply justified, and the user needs to learn to work constructively towards consensus and to show a willingness to learn rather than barging in demanding that all others comply with his distorted understanding of policies. .. ], ] 09:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:Point of clarification – GusChiggins has been blocked for ], not edit warring, and his actions fit the ''Definition of disruptive editing and editors'' remarkably well. .. ], ] 11:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
===Raul routinely blocking users with whom he's in an edit war===
::''If he has a problem with my previous actions, come out and say it. Otherwise, it's clear that they are what they are - empty claims, without merit.''. I do have a problem with your previous blocks. I believe you have repeatedly blocked users with whom you are in an edit war or whose edits you found disagreeable, under sometimes misleading edit summaries, and always for far longer than allowed by ]. Since you ''asked'' for examples, I will provide almost every non-checkuser, non-maintenance, non-vandalism block you have done in the past several months:
::] - (The Great Global Warming Swindle) 1 week for "vandalism and POV pushing" for . No warning, Raul directly in an edit war with this user.
::] - (WTC) 1 week for "vandalism" (in fact, was POV pushing, had no warning, did not deserve block).
::] - (Global warming) - As stated on the talk page, "Really, the problem is that Raul654 is in an edit war with this user, and blocked him inappropriately. The indefinite block is only an extension of that. ~ UBeR (talk) ". Raul in a direct edit war with thisuser.
::] - (The Great Global Warming Swindle) - blocked, apparently, for having the chutzpah to state . Reverted by Raul. Raul in a direct edit war with this user.
::] - (Intelligent Design) blocked for innocuous mistake.
::] (Intelligent Design) "vandalism" - blocked for and removing a small section, without warning. Article which Raul edits, giving opposite point of view.
::]- (Intelligent Design) - blocked for "vandalism" for having the chutzpah to add an {{tl|NPOV}} tag to an article you routinely watch: . Reverted by Raul, in a direct edit war with Raul.
::]- (Intelligent Design) - blocked for POV pushing for again, adding POV tag: . Speaking against Raul's POV on an article he routinely edits.
::] - (Intelligent Design) blocked for "POV pushing" for . Reverted by Raul, in an edit war with Raul.
::] - (An Inconvenient Truth) - blocked for inserting the word "controversial", with a source, and after using the talk page, and in a direct edit war with Raul: .
::Protected article - (Global warming) protected of the page:
::Yqtb: (Intelligent Design) for removing a message from you: , which is allowable by policy (not to mention blocking him 24h for quite mild vandalism on an article you were involved in).
::] - (The Great Global Warming Swindle) - blocked for "POV pushing": . Reverted by Raul, in an edit war with Raul.
::] - (global warming) -blocking for 3RR, etc. on an article which you clearly have a stake: .
::] - (global warming) - edit warring.
::] - (Intelligent Design)- blocked for "trouble-making" (which, as every time, involved a point of view opposite your own)
::] (ultimately global warming related) - blocked for "harassing" a user whose POV you agree with on the articles they were editing.
::]- (The Great Global Warming Swindle) - blocked for a week for POV pushing for (reverted by yourself of course, which is not POV-pushing, and certainly not justified without a warning, and most certainly not from an admin who is POV pushing in the opposite direction.
::] - (The Great Global Warming Swindle) - blocked for edit warring with you.
::] - (The Great Global Warming Swindle) - blocking an editor with whom you were in dispute, and losing a good contributor for it while at it.
::] - (ID) , etc. ].
::At this point, I tire of going any further back than April (I believe the mountain of blocks above suffices). So, no, to answer your questions, my statements were not "empty claims, without merit." ] (]) 13:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


Thank you. ] (]) 19:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Once again, as is so often noted here on AN/I, an Admin has stood up for and rigorously enforced Misplaced Pages's policies, esp. about NPOV, on a controversial article, and someone is right there to file a complaint that their fringe theory isn't being given due weight. When are we going to protect good admins making good blocks? We ought to have a policy permitting blocks for spurious and malicious reporting of admin abuses. I looked at a few of these, not all, but a lot of these IPs like to add weasel words or spin the intro to fit their anti-global warming attitudes. I'd bet that a checkuser would show that some of this is the same editor, coming back week after week. Raul654 is a solid admin who is protecting Misplaced Pages from stupidity. Stop wasting WIkipedia's time, and AN/I's time, with baseless accusations. ] (] • ]) 13:59, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:I couldn't have said it better myself. It's clear from the half-dozen admins commenting above that EvilSpartan's thread here has absolutely no merit, that this should never have been brought here in the first place, and that he's wasting everyone's time. ] (]) 14:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC) :Why do people have to argue about what genre music is rather than just listening to it, and hopefully enjoying it? ] (]) 19:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::That looks like more wagon-circling from the admins, who think that there should be more policies to let them shoot the messenger whenever anybody dares to criticize their behavior and actions. ] (]) 14:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC) ::The genre list was fine and accurate and uncontroversial until this user decided to remove the entire thing. It's important that the genre list is accurate. People find albums through genres. There's other reasons as well. ] (]) 20:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::This is neither here nor there, but I thought albums are generally sorted in alphabetical order by band name or the musician's last name.
:::It also looks like a continuing attempt to make the system more cumbersome and bureaucratic, so that admins are prevented from blocking ] on topics they are knowledgeable about. If pristine "uninvolved" admins are ready to spring into action every time a problem is reported this would not be an issue, but don't forget these are issues subject to organised attempts by well funded outside bodies aiming to distort WP to present their own view, regardless of policies. .. ], ] 16:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::Please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or my information is incomplete. ] (]) 22:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::It would appear that you'd like admins to have ]-style powers to be judge, jury, and executioner in all disputes, including ones in which they're a partisan themselves. Implicit in this is an ideology that admins are always right, critics are always wrong, and the ends justify the means. ] (]) 17:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::::I was trying to explain the important of listing genres accurately. If you go to a record store then yes, albums are listed in alphabetical order. But they're still put in categories of genres. ] (]) 22:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::It goes without saying that all actions are open to and subject to review. If one takes a drastic action, there is more chance it will be reviewed rather than less. The review may come out endorsing the action, or reverting the action, or just serve to show the divisions in the community. Alternatively, the cost of no action may be immense - I've known of cases of active disruption in articles which I've been involved in, had to declare a conflict in, come here and got absolutely no response. ] 22:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::If we were going to list musical genres "accurately," we wouldn't bother at all. Except in very broad strokes ("rock," "punk," "Baroque," etc), so many of these horribly subjective "genres" are made up by bored media writers and bands that hate the notion of being The Same As Everyone Else. Get ten people to listen to ten different tracks of heavy metal, and you won't get as many as a third of them agreeing on any of them on the doom/grudge/dark/death/Goth/Viking/sludge/*-grind/*-core/etc etc etc spectrum. Beyond that, arguing whether any given artist is "that genre" is ''very'' highly subjective. (Hell, I've sung Baroque, classical, folk, rock, ethnic, shape note, so many genres I can't readily count.) ] 15:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::: I am given to wonder if Dan has any experience at all with POV-pushers, other than through their comments at Misplaced Pages Review. It is completely futile to pretend that repeated pushing of fringe views is not a problem, and it is foolish in the extreme to suggest we spin out each new incarnation's disruptive nonsense until we have enough to take to ArbCom. These blocks are uncontroversial, and making a big deal out of them obscures and impedes handling of the few cases of genuine abuse. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 19:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
My own two cents: The block is good. ARB has ''repeatedly'' stated that admins are to be given ''wide latitude'' in blocking ], ''especially'' when faced with organized efforts. The corresponding complaints in ANI are simply an extension of that disruption. Yes, Raul ''might'' have gotten another admin to block, and probably would have had no difficulty in finding one&mdash; but also the blocks were ''not'' controversial by any stretch of the imagination and he did not ''need'' to do so. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 16:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:I can't sort this out but it looks like we may have a legitimate problem with Raul's use of the blocking function. Administrators of all people should follow the rules. A claim that the rules were broken for the sake of enforcing policy or protecting the encyclopedia is no excuse. We can all point to policy to support our view of what a page should look like. The ] policy cannot be more clear: ''Administrators must not block users with whom they are engaged in a content dispute.'' That holds as well for fringe science as it does for any other subject. When an administrator uses a block to enforce his version of a page edit, he is simply making his own edits count more than other people's. We may disagree about what constitutes good science, or which version of a page content is aligned with policy and which is not, but those disputes get resolved through dispute resolution, not blocking users. Even when dealing with POV pushers as persistent as the intelligent design proponents and global warming deniers, we have to play by the rules. Again, I cannot conclude for sure that this got out of hand but the complaint seems to have some merit. Blocking users, without warning, after one or two objectionable edits in an article he himself is "patrolling" seems to be a breach of block policy. Raul does not seem to be taking any of this to heart, so the logical next step is an RfC and if that does not resolve it an ArbCom case. ] (]) 17:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::Strict adherence to policy is not an end in itself. The articles at question here are infested with persistent sockpuppets, organized POV-pushing campaigns, and other obstructions to writing an encyclopedia. Editor time and energy are not infinite resources. Those resources should be devoted to writing an encyclopedia rather than battling the onslaught of obvious sockpuppets and POV-pushers. ] (]) 17:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::Lately, the "emergency exceptions" to policies, justified because "policy is not a suicide pact" and "organized campaigns" must be countered unmercifully, seem to be swallowing the policies themselves. All manner of due process, civility, not biting newbies, and so forth are considered to be quaint old-fashioned concepts that need to be set aside in the present emergency situation. But one should bear in mind that those in power anywhere like emergencies because it gives them the excuse to grant themselves emergency powers; and such powers, once granted, are rarely voluntarily relinquished. ] (]) 17:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Writing as one of the editors who has to contend with this endless parade of trolls, POV warriors, malcontents, sock puppets, meat puppets and even organized campaigns to disrupt these pages by public relations firms paid to do this, I applaud Raul's efforts to slow them down a bit. We need to be protected a little, or else productive editors will just say to hell with Misplaced Pages and leave. I get tired of people who want to support editors who are only here for one purpose only: to destroy Misplaced Pages, or turn it into a political or religious tract for their own minority views. Use your heads people. Do you want to build an encyclopedia or not? The people that Raul blocks, at least in the cases that I know, are not here to build an encyclopedia. They are here to stop others from trying to do so, however.--] (]) 17:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


== Multiple users breaking 3RR on Gilman School article ==
:A problem I'm seeing is that these sorts of things are percieved of as being genuine content disputes. These are not matters of a set of sources and facts being legitimately disputed, or an editor attempting to add or remove content based on reasons presented on a talk page, but which other editors don't agree with. This is a number of mostly IPs hopping on, and pushing POV, without talk page use or clear summaries, but through the introduction of ], 3RR vios, and so on. I'd note also that some of the summaries presented above aren't as clear as they could be, and in fact, when you look at the actual history, these are borne out to be false. The ONLY one I see (and I looked at a few more) which COULD be argued is ], wherein even the revert summary makes a spelling error, adding a third word to the mix. Here, yeah, he might've pulled the trigger too soon, but I'm willing to listen to him on that before judging it wrong. But others here dropped out paragraphs critical of Behe, or added in 'might', 'maybe', and all sorts of weaselly terms, designed to game the system.
:If this were legitimate content dispute, I'd be right here railing against Raul. If Raul and these editors were all discussing things on the talk page, and Raul said 'I'm right, block block block', I'd be cleaning the contacts to (metaphorically, lest I get yelled at) fry him. Admins can't leverage buttons to 'get their way'. However, editing a hot topic against consensus and without discussion to change facts into POVs and disparage the topics isn't real content disputation, and Raul isn't 'edit warring' or 'content warring' with them, he's maintaining the article at a higher standard of quality. I wouldn't even support 3RR warnings against him, because this type of POV pushing, without discussion, robotically adding stuff to break down the factuality, is vandalism. And the IP editors and other offenders KNOW IT IS. ] (]) 17:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


I agree with Coren and Thuran. It appears to have been a good block. If someone (EvilSpartan? Dan?) thinks that the editor should not have been blocked, please make the case. I think people here would be interested in looking at the arguments for and against. The arguments appear to be entirely bureaucratic. ] (]) 18:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:Not bureaucratic at all, and I certainly want to write (and am writing) the encyclopedia. I've just found that administrators acting like cowboys is at least as disruptive to the process as errant vandals, POV pushers, and so on. No matter what you call it and how clear you want to make it, the underlying question of how to cover global warming and intelligent design (not to mention Arab-Israeli conflict, the Armenian genocide, homeopathy, trivia sections, whether punctuation goes inside or outside the quote, etc.) is a content dispute. I spot checked the above list too, and most of the blocks would be premature and unwarranted for any administrator - and in the case of Raul violated the block policy if they concerned his article. I don't want to make some grand comparison of Misplaced Pages to democracy, but people need to keep their heads and stop forsaking the rules and saying the sky is falling just because we get an occasional vandal or single purpose editor. We should be counseling administrators to act with restraint, dignity, and due concern for the rules, not banging the drum for them to be blocking other editors on whim. ] (]) 18:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::I want everyone to follow the rules, and all blocks should be subject to proper review on request, but this looks very much like rule creep. It's a long stretch to suggest that Raul was in an edit war with GusChiggins, who certainly was breaking the rules. .. ], ] 18:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::] is completely correct in his assessment. The ] policy means what it says. ] is right about one thing: that there is organized POV pushing going on -- but it is happening on both sides of the content dispute. This calls for dispute resolution, not for the abuse of admin powers and "might makes right." --] (]) 22:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::::Niels that's where you're wrong. NPOV does not state that all sides of an issue, theory or statement be used in an article. It states that the ones that can be verified with reliable sources. It is getting tiresome that someone put whatever they want in article, then whine all the up the bureaucracy of Misplaced Pages that they are the aggrieved party. NO, it doesn't work that way. I looked over Raul's blocks, including the ones I observed personally, and he was stopping POV warring. When I revert a POV warrior, I do so knowing that I have verifiability behind me. So I'm not warring. I'm keeping the barbarians away from the gate. So, what you call a content dispute is only half right. The content is being disrupted by an organized few. So, are you on the side of verifiability and reliability? Or are you on the side of everyone has an equal voice? ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 22:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::Wikidemo, PLEASE explain how 'Science is a dirty lie, there's no Global Warming cause Jesus made it right after he made people" is really any sort of CONTENT dispute, instead of a POV push? That's exactly what goes on in these articles, faith against fact. We deal in facts here, not faith. There's no CONTENT in the CONTENT disputes you allege. Did you actually LOOK at those editors' contributions? ALL, not just the ONE conveniently leasts severe which EvilSpartan cherry picked to make Raul look bad? I did for about all of the ID ones. With the exception of 'teological/theological', which I already noted isn't so solid, all the others I looked at showed multiple POV pushing weasel word adds, removal of sections of fact and citation, or additions which made it sound like science is just a pagan faith. That stuff is directly in the face of WP:VERIFIZABILITY and WP:RS. There's LONG been a policy that religious doctrine isn't 'verifiable' inasmuch as its' interpreters address current events, like GW and ID. I'd like specific instances of how this stuff really counts as arguments over actual content, other than that they're changing words and articles contain words. They aren't adding meat and trimming fat here, they're cutting out that which offends their version of ]. If we were to consider that sort of action genuine, resolvable content disputation, we'd be a big group of morons, because thousands of years of theology has only splintered 'Truth' more and more. Please be specific. Thank you. ] (]) 00:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
: Also endorse the block. Others including Coren, Thuran etc have put it well - it appears more than enough warnings had been issued, and it is unfortunate that those admins that work in certain controversial sections of the encyclopaedia come in for such intense scrutiny when they decide to use the power they've been entrusted with to end some of the madness and try and get things back on track. I think pretty much no-one could categorise my own views/statements on admin action as being in favour of harsh treatment - I've spoken out against some really poorly thought out and seemingly punitive blocks at times - but I also believe chances can be exhausted and good faith can be tested to its limits. ] 22:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikidemo, you clearly are unaware of what we are dealing with in controversial areas. 3,4, 5, or 10 or more new sock puppets, meat puppets and POV warriors per day in some cases. Organized coordinated attacks on our articles (see for example). Public relations organizations paid to attack and undermine Misplaced Pages. It is a nightmare. Raul stands between a semi reliable encyclopedia and complete chaos in these areas. And if you do not realize that, you are sadly mistaken and misinformed.--] (]) 23:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:Not sadly :) But I hear you. It must be frustrating. I spot checked a number of the blocked editors, not just GusChiggins21, whose history is too complicated to get a quick read. I don't doubt that most of the people Raul blocked need to be contained in some way. Also, that the outcome content-wise has to be neutral supportable statements, which would tend to mean science over a religious agenda. If there are sock puppets that makes it all the more vexing. Where I have a problem, I guess, is when you give up on the rules because you think the case is so bad, or obvious. Most reasonable people probably agree that faith-based anti-scientific positions shouldn't be stated as fact in the encyclopedia, or treated as a viable criticism of the prevailing theory. But there are plenty of other cases (I mention trivia, BLP, hot button politics, and some manual-of-style issues) where passions run at least as strong yet there are reasonable arguments on both sides. Moreover, even in articles about fringe theory supporters the BLP and OR rules apply, and arguments tending to discredit the theory, however well-sourced, are not really relevant to the bio of the fringe theorist. When people have the attitude that consensus and process don't matter if policy is on their side, or people get into being content sheriffs, you end up with otherwise respectable and reasonable Wikipedians getting very upset. That happens more often, I think, when anyone stands guard over a disputed article for too long. Sometimes you have to separate the role of mediator/peacemaker, from that of disciplinarian, and from that of advocate of content policy. I don't think we'll ever get rid of attacks from the religious right by playing ] with them every time they show up; rather, we have to build up a consistent and supportable set of rules by which the unhelpful edits and editors can be kept in their place. ] (]) 04:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


== Please edit protected ] article ==


Two users are actively engaged in an ongoing edit war on ], with both {{user13|Counterfeit_Purses}} breaking 3RR , , , and {{user13|Statistical_Infighting}} being right at 3 Reverts
Editors have reached a consensus regarding a change of the first three paragraphs. I am asking any administrator who sees this to edit the article: please replace the first three paragraphs of the article with Shibumi2's version found , along with expressions of support from most editors who have weighed in on the subject. ] (]) 03:38, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
, , .
:There is no such consensus. Please read the talk page. <span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color="#800080">]</font></span> 04:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
The specific section that he claims supports this edit is:


This seems to go back to December 9th, with the first editor (Counterfeit) removing it and , on the 17th, , and then being at the above today.
* ]


] (])
I've asked previously, as more and more people keep bringing this Waterboarding article to the noticeboards (all the noticeboards, in fact). Can we get a variety of admins to come in here and review the arguments? It's getting damned incivil in there now, and it's going to only get worse in the next two days as people return from Christmas break. Nearly all the heated disputes are directly related to interpretation of policy. <span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color="#800080">]</font></span> 04:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
*E/C applied. ] ] 19:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::{{u|Counterfeit Purses}}, please be aware that the ] article was kept in a recent Articles for Deletion debate, so the consensus of the community is that he is notable. Edit warring to keep his name off the alumni list is a ''really bad idea''. ] (]) 20:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::@] No problem, I've already given up. I would argue that ] applies here, but there's no sense in pushing against the tide. If you're content to have the lede section of Gilman School include "prominent graduates including "alleged murderer Luigi Mangione", I guess that's fine. It seems to be an unusual thing to include and an obvious case of undue weight given to something that is in the news at the moment. Perhaps someone should start a Wikiproject to add famous murderers to the ledes of other schools? ] (]) 22:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::{{u|Counterfeit Purses}}, in my view, ] is among our most misunderstood policy documents. It begins {{tpq|In principle, all Misplaced Pages articles should contain up-to-date information. Editors are also encouraged to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events.}} I believe that Mangione is notable, the evolving article is acceptable, and his name belongs in the alumni list. Many, many "bad people" are listed as alumni in countless school articles, and it is not at all unusual. The only unusual thing here is that the lead of this particular school article lists alumni, and so I have removed them from the lead. ] (]) 01:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I'm glad that misunderstanding WP:NOTNEWS is so common because I am going to continue to misunderstand it. I see that Liz Luigi Mangione from the lede before you removed the rest of the list. Acknowledging again that I have given up hope that Mangione will be removed from this article, let me ask you what you think the purpose of these alumni lists is? Including Mangione is an editorial decision. We don't include all notable alumni in these lists, so why should we include Mangione, and why now? It's too soon to know if he will have lasting relevance. ] (]) 04:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::{{tqq|We don't include all notable alumni in these lists}} Why not? If someone is Wikinotable and went to a Wikinotable school, then they belong in the "Notable alumni" section of that school's page, ] - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::@] I'm not saying "we shouldn't", I'm saying "we don't". We don't include every notable alumnus in these lists, nor should we because it would lead to long, unhelpful lists stuck in the middle of articles about the schools. ] (]) 04:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::If an alumni list bloats an article, it can be split out. See ]. 11:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC) (Oops, signing) ] (]) 16:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Of course that's always an option, but what I am saying is that it isn't desirable to have every alumnus listed in an article for a school. Ideally, it would be a selection of alumni who have made significant achievements in their field. Otherwise, it's just trivia. Am I wrong? ] (]) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Yes. You're making a value judgment that some alumni (with articles, else they most definitely should not be included) are more notable than others. That is ]. ] (]) 20:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::Yes, that's called editorial judgment. Just like deciding not to include every known fact about something in an article. At some point, it is just trivia. Misplaced Pages is not a database. That info would probably be welcome over on Wikidata, which is a database. Alternatively, someone could just add ] (in this case). ] (]) 20:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::And a new user, who doesn't understand categories and has no idea Wikidata exists, is relying on the list on the page. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


== Vandal encounter ==
Just a note as well, this "new" account called Neutral Good left a warning of some sort on an another user's page at ], warning him to not remove that notice, which is a bit out of line. He seems to be a "bad hand" account of an editor intricately familiar with Misplaced Pages. <span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color="#800080">]</font></span> 04:11, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


] seems to be a vandal who seems to be ready to start an edit war. I have reverted their disruptive edits, and they have begun to add them back.
:Note: a quick look at ]'s contributions to date is consistent with the hypothesis that ] is a single-purpose account freshly created by an experienced editor, apparently solely for astroturfing the ] page. -- ] (]) 14:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::And rather aggressively, at that, leaving warnings on various users talk pages with warnings within warnings that they aren't to be removed, along with threats to "fix" the article once semi-protection became irrelevant to him (this is before the article was fully protected again, before he could "fix" it). <span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color="#800080">]</font></span> 14:12, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::Interestingly, Neutral Good edited their own talk page to remove critical comments immediately before editing WP:AN/I. I wonder just how many real people are behind the various "waterboarding is not torture" accounts, many of which have similar styles of writing and argumentation? -- ] (]) 14:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


diffs: </nowiki>] </nowiki>] </nowiki>] </nowiki>]
===]===
In looking more at this, is {{user5|Neutral Good}} actually {{user5|Haizum}}? Read this old and ]. He was banned for very aggressively going after others, had a major bone to pick with me because I wouldn't let him twist policies to his suiting and break NPOV on ], and vowed to return under sockpuppet accounts on his talk page unless he was unblocked. He wrote:
::''I'm fully capable of coming to terms with my actions. However, I will not volunteer this when it is clear that there is a double standard in play, specifically when my edits are trolled for alleged infractions that were never subject to administrative action. I feel that is a fair stance to take. Now, we can do this honestly; I will accept a long but limited block for my actions with the mutual understanding that there was past administrative malice and a questionable ANI, or, I will change my IP address (I subscribe to two different ISPs) and create a new account with a blank slate. Yes, I'm sure at this very moment you are recoiling at my ultimatum, but note that my preferred concession keeps me publicly accountable for my block log. I ask you, which is preferable? --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 20:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)''
This seems very, very similar. And it's been just over a month, since Haizum was removed from any editing ability when his talk page was protected. <span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color="#800080">]</font></span> 14:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


I would have put this at AIV, but I have no clue how to edit source. ] (]) 23:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
===Another Haizum sock===
Please block ], a demonstrated sock of Haizum as well that somehow wasn't blocked before. Thanks. <span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color="#800080">]</font></span> 14:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


:{{not done}} - Not an admin - I hate to be that person but unfortunately you've not sufficiently warned them, They've only received one warning and their edits aren't gross vandalism so this would only be declined by an admin anyway, If they continue I'll report them to AIV, Thanks, –]<sup>]</sup> 23:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:Block both. Evidently SPAs. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 14:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::Ah, I see. Thank you! This has been noted for the future. Thank you, again! ] (]) 23:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::You're welcome, Happy editing, Thanks, –]<sup>]</sup> 23:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)


== User:Glenn103 ==
Filed RFCU at ]. <span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color="#800080">]</font></span> 16:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
{{userlinks|Glenn103}} has been mass creating unsourced stubs about Cyrillic letters, most of which have been draftified. They've also disruptively edited in the past, such as: <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ])</span> 01:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:Most of these pages don't even make any sense (eg.: ]). The user also ignores any notice about his articles being moved to draftspace by simply recreating duplicates of them (eg.: ] & ]). Immediate action may be needed. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 07:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::Given a uw-create4im with directions to come here, let's see what happens. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::They've continued editing, this time adding infoboxes to the articles, so I don't think the warning worked... <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ])</span> 08:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I have blocked them from article space and page moves, and will leave note on talk page to come here. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 15:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Honestly, this almost feels like trolling. Their basic procedure seems to be: pick a random Cyrillic letter. Combine it with a random diacritic. Write a short stub on the combination, saying effectively "this letter combination is not used anywhere." The occasional historical mentions ("this combination was used in such-and-such obscure Siberian language") are completely unsourced, of course. (Everything is unsourced.) ] (]) 04:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


:Excuse me for detracting from the report, but this was your 4th edit, your last edit was in January 2016... how have you found yourself here of all places?
*Note: RFCU determined that ] and ] are unrelated. ]] 17:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:I mean you might have a point, but wow. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 04:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Similar behavior to {{checkuser|PickleMan500}} and other socks puppeted by {{checkuser|Abrown1019}}, which also made tons of drafts on Cyrillic characters that cited few sources (and none with in-depth coverage). Most drafts have been ]'d, of course, so only those with admin perms can verify the deleted contribs. <small>Since these socks have been banned (]), I haven't notified them of this discussion.</small> ] (] '''·''' ]) 17:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:Good catch, and looking at the contribution histories it {{duck}}. Changing the block to indef as a sock accordingly. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:22, 25 December 2024 (UTC)


== North Korean involvement in Russian-Ukraine war discussion ==
== Autoblock, please help ==


The inclusion of North Korea as a belligerent in the infobox for the "Russian invasion of Ukraine" article has been a point of extensive and protracted discussion since September. A formal Request for Comment (RfC) on this matter ran for several weeks and was closed with a clear consensus to include North Korea as a combatant based on reliable sources and expert analysis. However, despite the closure, the discussion has continued unabated across multiple threads, with certain editors repeatedly rehashing resolved points and questioning the validity of reliable sources, leading to significant disruption.
<small>''Moved out of above archive, as relates to a problem which affects many admins and is only marginally related to the case at hand.'' ] 10:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)</small>


'''Key Points:'''
Giano has been unblocked, but remains autoblocked. Could somebody please help (and then, could somebody PLEASE teach me how to undo autoblocks according to this horrible new system? It didn't use to be a problem!) ] | ] 10:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC).
:I have removed Giano's autoblock. --]] 10:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::Hi Coredesat. Would you (or someone else) have time to educate your fellow admins on how to undo autoblocks? It's a reasonable request from Bishonen. We don't want the technology to lead to a reduced pool of admins who have the knowledge of how to undo an autoblock. Do the instructions at ] cover the new system? ] (]) 11:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::I sort of found it by chance by browsing ] until I found the first autoblock mask corresponding to Giano's 72 hr block, then unblocked that number on the regular unblock page. ] seems to say that we have to do just that, as weird as that sounds; it states that admins have to keep an eye on the block list for any additional autoblocks that pop up as a result of an initial block. I suppose this means the tool is useless in its current form; the last time Giano was caught up in an autoblock (one I admittedly caused), it took ElinorD a little while to find the mask for it, and we both found it at about the same time. --]] 12:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::::Checkusers can trace autoblocks a lot easier, but we could do with explicit permission from the user to do so. Of course we promise not to reveal any information from the check. --] <small>]</small> 17:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::Yes, I have found the tool useless in its current form. I used to undo a lot of autoblocks, for instance always keeping an eye out for distress posts from the unfortunate ]. It was easy. And now it takes a ''checkuser'', unless you find the "mask" (wot?) by chance? Please tell me you're kidding. Why has the technology been, uh, improved to such a point? ] | ] 18:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC).
::::::Does the not work any more? I'm guessing not because I don't see anything there more current than Nov 27. Is it just temporarily down or is it going to be fixed? --] (]) 18:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::::I've had the same problem trying to undo unrelated autoblocks - they just don't show up at all and I have to actually get the user to send me previewed code by email, preview that myself and use the links to unblock. ] 22:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


# '''Prolonged Discussions and RfC Closure:'''
== ]'s disruption at ] and related articles ==
#* The RfC on North Korea's inclusion was conducted thoroughly, with a wide range of arguments presented by both sides.
#* The closing administrator, S Marshall, determined there was a clear consensus to include North Korea as a belligerent based on reliable sources and the strength of arguments.
#* The close explicitly allowed for reevaluation if new battlefield events or sources emerged, but no substantial new evidence has invalidated the prior consensus.
# '''Ongoing Disruption:'''
#* Despite the RfC's resolution, the same arguments are being repeated across multiple threads, often by the same editors.
#* This behavior includes undermining reliable sources, misrepresenting their content, and insisting on a higher standard of verification (e.g., requiring firsthand evidence of North Korean combat, which is unreasonable given the context).
# '''Reliable Sources Confirming North Korean Involvement:'''
#* Multiple reputable outlets, including the BBC, Reuters, and Pentagon statements, confirm North Korean military involvement and casualties in the conflict.
#* Experts from institutions like Chatham House and RUSI have explicitly stated North Korea's role in combat, aligning with the community's decision.
# '''Impact on the Community:'''
#* The continued disruption consumes editor time and resources, detracting from the article's improvement.
#* These actions disregard Misplaced Pages's consensus-building principles and guidelines for resolving disputes. This dispute has been ongoing for months, with multiple threads being opened and closed on the same topic.


'''Request for Administrative Action:'''
* from the article.
* again.
* "enforcing neutrality" is his "specialty" and accuses everyone opposing his position of "trolling." In previous notes on his talkpage, he specifically accused me of "trolling" with no evidence, and refused to provide evidence of it when asked.
* this dispute to other, completely non-related issue.
*Further diffs from various Wales- and Sanger-related articles.
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I respectfully request that administrators address the following issues:
The above diffs are across the project, on nearly all the Sanger- and Wales-related articles. This user has shown that he's unwilling to compromise, and has insisted that he has "no POV" on these matters. The above diffs indicate otherwise. He has accused those who revert his POV edits of "stalking" and "trolling." ]] 19:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


# Enforce the consensus reached in the closed RfC, as no new evidence significantly alters the previous conclusions.
To be fair, in one case, it was stalking - I ended up rv'ing fourty nondiscrimate reverts. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 19:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
# Discourage editors from rehashing resolved discussions, particularly when arguments have been repeatedly addressed and dismissed.
:No, it wasn't "stalking", though you're free to view it that way. Bramlet ''did'' indiscriminately revert SB's edits, but ], I think he was simply mistaken in his reversions of some of the edits, seemingly assuming that ''all'' of SB's edits were his ]-y mass edits of the Sanger- and Wales-related articles. I've presented a ''ton'' of diffs showing SB's disruption, and his lack of willingness to stop. You replied two minutes after I posted it. There's no way you even took the time to review them. ]] 19:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
# Consider imposing a topic ban or other appropriate measures on editors who persist in disrupting the article with repetitive or bad-faith arguments.
:::Where was I mistaken? I did ''not'' indiscriminately revert SB's edits. I reverted only his edits related to Wales and Sanger. ] (]) 21:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::When you start indiscriminately reverting someone forty/fifty times, AGF flies out the window. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 19:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::No, it doesn't. Not when SB had been POV-pushing his edits across the project. Bramlet messed up, and reverted too many of his edits, but that does ''not'' excuse SB's actions. ]] 19:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::::Did I ever say it did? I just gave you one example where he '''was'' being stalked. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 19:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::(ec) On the same note, there is an ongoing content debate between these guys on the Sanger talk page. As soon as Squeakbox began to lose the argument, and sources were produced that buried his view that no sources supported Sanger as co-founder, he went and began editing out ''every'' reference on Misplaced Pages that called Wales co-founder or Sanger co-founder. A wrong doesn't make a right, but Squeakbox was also very wrong and needs to stop. <span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color="#800080">]</font></span> 19:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


This matter has been discussed exhaustively, and it is essential to prioritize Misplaced Pages's goals of maintaining a high-quality, well-sourced, and consensus-driven encyclopedia.
:Erm, how is defending the neutrality and integrity of the project a cause for posting on AN/I. I agree with Jimbo that people like Mr Which should be told to stop trolling this issue, and end the issue there. Bramlet most certainly was stalking me, spending all his time following me around and reverting my edits in a SPA way and thus this issue has already been dealt with here, and satisfactorily. If anybody has been out of line today it has been Quackguru for claiming that reverting his POV pushing at Larry Sanger is blockable as if somehow he were the founder of the project. Thanks, ] 19:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
::This is not a content dispute and is perfect for admin review. You were asked on the Sanger talk page if the 80+ sources that cite Sanger as co-founder were with or without merit. You then went and made all these revisions. I'd advise admins to read . It does appear disruptive on your part. You'd also claimed it was a BLP violation to say Sanger is co-founder. What BLP violation is that exactly? <span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color="#800080">]</font></span> 19:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
UPDATE: I just noticed that North Korea was removed as a belligerent and added to the 'supported by' section, completely violating the consensus.
] (]) 08:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:Since this report isn't really about an incident and your request is directed towards admins, I think this complaint would be better placed at ] rather than ANI. It will also need more specifics, which articles, which edits, which editors. You'll need to provide that. I also question whether or not these are content standards that the community can't handle on their own. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::I was going to post it at ] but it said: "'''This noticeboard is for issues affecting administrators generally – announcements, notifications, information, and other matters of''' ''general administrator interest.''
::If your post is about a '''specific problem you have''' (a '''dispute''', user, help request, or other narrow issue needing an administrator), you should post it at the ''']''' (ANI) instead. Thank you."
::I posted it on ANI beecause my specific problem was this dispute ] (]) 12:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The original post in this thread appears to resemble LLM output. GPTzero confirms this impression, rating text as "99% probability AI generated". Using AI to generate ANI submissions is highly inappropriate. ] (]) 18:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Even when a message appears to be AI-generated, I think it is worth considering whether or not it is pointing out an actual problem. I think editors might be ignoring the results of an RFC, I just don't think asking for administrators to monitor a subject area, without identifying specific articles, is a feasible solution. It does seem like, possibly, a point that could come up in a complaint at AE regarding the Ukraine CTOP area. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:55, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I had a peek and it's a messy RfC and, as is generally the case with a messy RfC had a very involved closure message which seems to reflect that the closer felt constrained by the framing of the RfC. I didn't see any immediate indication in the edit history that anyone had tried to implement the RfC result and been rebuffed (although I might have missed it). So there's some smoke here but, I think, not a ton of fire. ] (]) 20:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Liz, I don't disagree but I'm not at all convinced that use of AI is a positive contribution to CTOP areas. ] (]) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::It was written with AI assistance. Not all AI. ai detectors aren’t considered reliable, because you can put the U.S. constitution through one and it says 100% AI generated. Regardless, whether it’s AI or not has nothing to do with the topic. It’s just that there’a been so many discussions and when I checked the info box it said ‘supported by”, violating the consensus of the RFC ] (]) 12:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I think the underlying issue here is that if you use AI to generate text which looks like obvious AI output then readers will wonder "does the end user even have sufficient English to understand what the AI has generated for them?" and "did the end user understand the material prior to deciding to employ AI?". Thus if a user is fluent in English, as you obviously are, it will always be better to communicate in your own voice.
:::::::At the end of the day, a user making a valid point in their own voice is generally speaking going to be taken more seriously than a user employing LLM output.
:::::::There are plenty of other reasons for users not to employ AI (see the recent thread here for extensive coverage) but the argument above seems like a good practical reason for fluent English speakers to always prefer using their own voice.
:::::::You will see from the recent thread that many users here are vehemently against AI use. ] (]) 15:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I understood the material very well, its not like I just used 100% AI out of nowhere. I know the context. I have been involved in this discussion since September. ] (]) 16:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::It's a respect thing. It's disrespectful of other editors to make them read chatbot output rather than ''your'' words. ] (]) 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Rc2barrington's user page says {{tq|This user believes in the bright future AI and robotics will bring}}, so there's probably no point in arguing here. However, I simply observe that in any kind of discussion where you're trying to convince other people, don't use a method that aggravates a significant number of readers (probably a significant ''majority'' of readers). It really is that simple. ] (]) 19:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::<p>Putting the use of LLM aside, however you compose your message you should comply with the basics of ANI. This includes not making allegations without supplying evidence. This would normally be in the form of diffs but in this case just links might be fine. But ] has provided none. </p><p>Probably because this is because their initial complaint appears to be unsupported by what's actually happening. They claimed "{{tqi|Despite the RfC's resolution, the same arguments are being repeated across multiple threads, often by the same editor}}". But where is this? I visited the talk page, and what I see is here ] there was a request for clarification from the closer, something which is perfectly reasonably and which the closer followed up on. The OP then offered an interjection which frankly seemed unnecessary. There was then a very brief forumish discussion. To be clear, AFAICT no one in the follow up discussion was suggesting any changes to the article. So while it wasn't he most helpful thing as with any forumish discussion; it's hardly causing that much disruption especially since it seems to have quickly ended and also cannot be called "the same arguments" since there was no argument. No one in that discussion was actually suggesting changing the article. </p><p>Then there is ]. There was again some forumish discussion in this thread which again isn't helpful but wasn't that long. But there was also discussion about other things like the name of the article and whether to restructure it. To be clear, this isn't something which was resolve in the RfC. In fact, the closer specifically mention possible future issues in a non close comment. </p><p>Next we see ]. Again the main focus of the discussion is in how to handle stuff which wasn't dealt with in the RfC. There is a total of 2 short comments in that thread which were disputing the RfC which is unfortunate but hardly something to worry ANI about. </p><p>Next there is ]. DPRK was briefly mentioned there but only in relation to a suggestion to change the infobox for other countries. No part of that discussion can IMO be said to be disputing the DPRK RfC. Next we have ]. Again DPRK was briefly mention but only in relation to other countries. No part of that discussion can be said to be disputing the RfC. AFAICT, the only threads or comments removed from the talk page since the closure of the RfC was by automated archival. The only threads which seem to be post close are on ] and none of them seem to deal with North Korea. </p><p>So at least on the article talk page I don't see what the OP has said is happening. The tiny amount of challenging of the RfC is definitely not something ANI needs to worry about. Even the other forumish or otherwise unproductive comments aren't at a level that IMO warrants any action IMO. If this is happening somewhere else, this is even more reason why the OP needed to provide us some evidence rather than a long comment without anything concrete, however they composed it. </p><p>] (]) 10:15, 25 December 2024 (UTC)</p>


== Concern About a New Contributor ==
Not on the Larry Sanger page I didn't. How is it relevant on pages that have nothing to do with wikipedia? IMO it is not apropriate for AN/I, its just more trolling from MrWhich, who appears to be one of a number of editors who hold a grudge against wikipedia. Its time we took a neutral stance against troll warriors who want to smear Jimbo's good name on this project. Thanks, ] 19:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
{{atop|Suspected editor was indeed a sock. Unnecessary drama created by all-too zealous reporting--let this be the end of it. ] (]) 21:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
{{userlinks|Kriji Sehamati}}


Dear Wikipedians,
*Accusing me of "trolling" again probably isn't your best course of action here, SB. ]] 19:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


I hope you’re doing well. I wanted to inform you about a new contributor @], despite lacking experience, has repeatedly attempted to vandalize multiple articles. These articles were properly aligned with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines and reviewed by experienced contributors, but he/she seemed unwilling to understand or respect their adherence to the policies.
:Well if you are trolling, which I suggest you are, it clearly is my best approach. You seem more interested in attacking Jimbo than editing the encyclopedia and this is becoming very tedious. I suggets we take Jimbo's advice and warn off all the POV trolls on this issue, there apear to be 3, Braml;et, yourself and QuackGuru. You al know you are trolling because you have been told before so there are no excuses for trying to slur Jimbo's good anme on this project. Thanks, ] 19:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::Squeakbox, how does it violate NPOV and BLP, amazingly, to say Sanger is co-founder, when it's Once these sources were offered up, you immediately began calling everyone a troll, and unilaterally excising any reference of "co-founder" from these articles. <span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color="#800080">]</font></span> 19:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::It clearly violates BLP because of Jimbo's numerous statements on the matter. It violates NPOV because we need to be neutral and not take Larry's stance on this as fact, as again Jimbo has pointed out on numerous occasions. Thanks, ] 20:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::::What statements from Jimbo under BLP trump 100+ reliable news sources and supported you removing all reference of Sanger as co-founder from all of Misplaced Pages as soon as What reliable sources carried all these statements from Jimbo that you claim trump NPOV? <span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color="#800080">]</font></span> 20:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::None. Jimbo is no different than any other user who has an article about him.]] 20:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::::::But if someone were to undo Squeakbox's edits to the Sanger related articles, it would be stalking? I'm confused. Because he made so many edits, anyone going through and fixing his out of policy errors would be stalking?? <span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color="#800080">]</font></span> 20:12, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::::I think you accidentally placed this reply (apparently intended for Sceptre/Will) as a reply to me. ]] 20:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::::::::No, it was a reply to you based on the fact that Squeakbox's mass edits appear to unsupported by BLP as he claims--but I was implying, that, if I were to go and fix his mistaken edits, I would be tagged as a stalker. That is confusing. <span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color="#800080">]</font></span> 20:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


I believe your experience could help address this situation effectively.
:*I'd ask reviewing admins to note these ongoing ] when deciding what course of action to pursue regarding this user. ]] 19:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:Regards these users, don't you mean?. Your own behaviiour is what is unacceptable here, Mrwhich. You appear to think you can troll Jimbo with impunity, and me too judging by this thread. I bought this issue to AN/I myself the other day, why are you repeating it. Thanks, ] 20:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:*Note ongoing personal attacks. No trolling by me is either evident or proven. ]] 20:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::* I wouldn't be too sure of that. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 20:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::*I'd ask you to prove that with diffs that show me trolling on this issue or withdraw. Don't make this personal, JzG. Thanks, ]] 20:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
*Comment - I have been involved in the "co-founder issue" as well, just for disclosure. I have to say SB, that you lose credibilty when you lump ALL the editors who disagree with you on this issue as "Sanger supports" or "troll warriors who want to smear Jimbo's good name" ect, ect. It seems that you have taken this on as a personal cause or something. The reason I feel it is important has nothing to do with the indiviuals involved but more about how "facts" can be "bastardized" over time and history can morph based on people's involvement, ect. If Misplaced Pages can't even keep track of who its founder{s} were/are, why are they to be trusted with ANYTHING else? Anyways, --] 20:12, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


Looking forward to your advice on how to proceed.
As a newbie I think there is an interesting general question to be considered here:


Thankyou! ]] 15:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Are prolific, valuable and veteran editors such as Squeakbox and Giano expected to conform to the same rules as newer, less high profile contributors?


:"Vandalize" is a very loaded word here with a specific meaning. As far as I can tell, what they've done is nominate 4 articles for deletion, and your has been to accuse them of vandalism, ignoring dispute resolution procedures and making personal attacks – none of which I can see at a glance through their contributions.
Do they deserve a greater margin of toleration and rule-bending as super heroes and guardians of righteousness- or should they be setting an example of rectitude for lesser mortals to follow?
:Perhaps if you supplied ] of this behaviour, someone would be able to help? If your issue is that they've nominated 4 articles of which you are a major contributor ''and'' are doing so by going through your contributions in order to find articles to nominate for deletion with specious reasons, then this board would be the place to come. If not, then making your arguments for keeping the articles on the AfDs in question would be your best bet.
:By the way is forum shopping. Stop that. ] (]) 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:(ec) This is an odd one. As S-Aura failed to provide diffs, I looked at Kriji Sehamati's contribution history. New account (9 Dec) began editing today, created two drafts and made a bunch of edits to those. Then began adding COI tags to articles S-Aura wrote, nominated those articles for deletion, and then left a template on S-Aura's talk page. Really seems to be something weird going on here between those two. (In addition to opening this ANI thread, S-Aura asked for help with basically the same message on the talk pages of Ipigott, Ryan shell, CFA, and BusterD, and S-Aura opened same complaint at AN.) ]&nbsp;] 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::I am concerned that ]’s actions, including unjustified deletion nominations and spamming, are disruptive and violate Misplaced Pages’s guidelines.
::She seems to lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related ] and ]. ]] 16:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::You were asked to provide diffs. You did, almost, but then reverted yourself. Those diffs (well, the ones before those diffs) are just the other user nominating articles for deletion (which is allowed) or tagging them for what they believe to be conflict of interest edits (which is also allowed).
:::Please provide some actual evidence that the other user is engaging in chronic, intractable behaviour, rather than just not editing how you would like them to. ] (]) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Here are some diffs highlighting her problematic edits. However, I believe that many of her contributions may be in violation of Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. It appears she has specifically targeted me and added the COI tag multiple times to the same page. I would appreciate it if you could review her actions more thoroughly:
:::: •
:::: •
:::: •
:::: •
::::and many more
::::Thankyou! ]] 17:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::We wouldn't generally treat an AfD as vandalism. ] (]) 17:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I understand your point about AfDs not generally being treated as vandalism. However, I noticed that the major contribution history of the user seems suspicious. ]] 17:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Not from where anybody else is standing so far. I get that you're upset to have four articles of yours nominated for deletion, and if you have any evidence ''at all'' that you are being deliberately targeted by the other editor, then people will very much act on that. Please provide it. ] (]) 17:58, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I am here to contribute and edit articles in accordance with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. However, today a new user targeted me and falsely blamed me for actions that are not accurate. I believe this is unfair and not in line with the collaborative nature of the platform. ]] 18:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Please provide evidence of this. ] (]) 18:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Please check! ]] 18:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::The articles that have been nominated for deletion discussion have been reviewed by experienced contributors. These discussions involve articles about judges and lawyers, under ], a valid criterion according to Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. Therefore, the deletion decision was made after carefully reviewing these articles. ]] 18:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Honestly it looks like this user, rightly or wrongly, believes you have a conflict of interest and are acting on the basis of that assumption. I would suggest, if you don't have a CoI, talking to them about this and maybe asking why they've come to this conclusion. ] (]) 18:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::They have just started targeting my contributions, and I tried to inform her about the situation. However, she is acting as if she knows everything about Misplaced Pages and is dismissing my concerns. ]] 18:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
{{od}}
:{{ping|Kriji Sehamati}} hasn't edited since their AfD spree earlier today, let's wait and see what their response here is when they return to editing. ]&nbsp;] 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*We need to stop focusing on the OP's calling this vandalism; it is not. I've changed the header to reflect that. That said, the new user's edits ''are'' problematic and merit scrutiny. As for the UPE stuff, I've removed that post from the OP's Talk page; it's nonsensical coming from a new user and does not merit a response.--] (]) 18:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*It is, of course, not vandalism to nominate articles for AFD discussions as long as a legitimate deletion rationale is provided and the article hasn't just been discussed at a recent AFD. However, I don't think it's a good sign when a brand new editor claims to understand all of Misplaced Pages policies and whose first actions are to nominate articles at AFDs. They are almost never an actual new editor, especially when they know how to even set up an AFD or are familiar with using Twinkle on their first day of editing. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*:It seems that she is not new to Misplaced Pages and might be operating multiple accounts. It appears she has an issue with one of my contributions, as she created her account just 15 days ago, yet she already has a good understanding of tools like Twinkle and AfD procedures. This level of familiarity suggests prior experience on the platform. I am now requesting her account to be blocked as I am completely disturbed by her repeated allegations and disruptive behavior. ]] 11:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::I am now genuinely confused—if all my contributions are not good, then why am I even here? Were the experienced editors who reviewed and approved these pages also mistaken? A newcomer, who joined just recently, is now disrupting and questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors. This situation is deeply discouraging. ]] 11:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::Please resolve this situation—either block her for her disruptive behavior. How can i continue working under such constant targeting and stress ? ]] 12:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::User:S-Aura, you seem to be making unsupported personal attacks against ]. You should provide specific evidence of wrongdoing, including diffs, or your arguments here will fall on deaf ears (and bring consequences for you). Meanwhile, as a filer on ANI, you have brought all your own edits to close scrutiny by the community. You may have to face that smart people disagree, and this is how we sort disagreements out on English Misplaced Pages. You are not required to edit, but we encourage you to do so. Nobody is going to block Kriji Sehamati at this point, because you've given us no reason to do so. ] (]) 12:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::Meanwhile, in the last few minutes S-Aura has disruptively about this exact issue on this same board, which by another editor. This is intentional disruption. ] (]) 12:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::As to the question "Why am I here?", poets and artists have been trying to answer this question for eons. Epistemology is outside the scope of this board, but there are articles about it. Show up to edit if you want to, but expect disagreement from time to time. (That's actually a sound answer to any epistemology question as well.) ] (]) 12:16, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::Dear @],
*:::::It means I have been proven wrong, and that user’s contributions have been more focused on me, which is quite insufficient to catch someone’s lie that she is pretending to be new, when in fact she is old.
*:::::Also, I am not against AfD; I am simply expressing my opinion. ]] 13:12, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Could you please rephrase your point here? I don't understand. While it's okay to be suspicious that this editor is somehow socking or doing something else deceptive due to the familiarity, it seems unacceptable to deliberately accuse them of such repeatedly without firmer evidence. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::Dear @],
*:::::::I am not engaged in paid activities on Misplaced Pages, and she claimed that I am connected with the subject, who is a judge, lawyer, etc. You all should understand that this is not a trivial matter; justice is a very respected position. Making such allegations can escalate court cases. I would like to remind you of the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI case. ]] 13:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::One thing you need to understand immediately is you should never make another post that sounds vaguely like a legal threat, as you've just done above. ] That intonation is seriously not helping us decide who's right or wrong here. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::Okay! ]] 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::I will caution you that this is tiptoeing right up to the edge of ] and you'd be advised to avoid making legal threats. ] (]) 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::Dear @],
*:::::::::I am merely showing that she can potentially do something inappropriate. I am following the guidelines and not making any legal threats. ]] 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::Accusing another editor of potentially making legal threats is not much better, when there is no concrete evidence that they would do so. Being interested in articles about judges does not suffice. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::The page of Justice ], who had conducted over the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI court hearing, was also created by me. ]] 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::<del>State plainly what the implication you are making here is, because what I'm hearing is "I'm familiar with people who have hit Misplaced Pages with a mallet in court before, and I can make sure it happens again".</del> <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::This is becoming a rabbit hole. I urge you not to pursue the rabbit further. ] (]) 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::::Good call, I'll retract the above. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::No, that is not what I am implying. ]] 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::No one has said your contributions are not good. However, it should be noted that a draft being accepted at AfC or a new page having been ] does not guarantee greater scrutiny would not result in a valid AfD nomination. That said, echoing others here it's clear something problematic is up with this user's behavior. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 12:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::You can't both criticize someone for {{tq|lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related ] and ]}}, and then argue that she is too familiar with the platform to be a newcomer for knowing how to file an AfD. I wouldn't be surprised if most people here knew how to file an AfD before knowing all 14 notability guidelines by heart. ] (] · ]) 12:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::There are detailed instructions on filing an AfD that can be found by googling "how can I get a Misplaced Pages page deleted" - if somebody had some personal reason for wanting to have pages removed it doesn't strain credibility to think that's why they created a WP account and that they just followed the very clear instructions on the appropriate pages.
*:::In fact that might explain why some of the AfD filings were reasonable and some were, on their face, incorrectly filed. If you looked up the AfD ''process'' but not ''criteria'' that is the likely outcome. That's why I find the "new user files AfDs must be a sock" idea here somewhat uncompelling. ] (]) 13:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*I believe we're entering boomerang territory at this point. Opinions? ] (]) 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:I think OP is upset that a cluster of their articles were put up at AfD. This in itself is understandable, but while there's reason to think there might be mischief by Kriji Sehamati, we don't have any real evidence of it. We either need the OP to make it clearer what misconduct, if any, has occurred, or they need to ]. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::The OP has been intentionally disruptive (by creating a new ANI thread which was reverted), and this thread is going nowhere. IMHO, there's nothing ANI can do here. Everything I'm reading about should be resolved at the page talk and user talk level, in my opinion. The AfDs are underway. If dispute resolution is needed, fine. Nobody is harming S-Aura. S-Aura can't come crying to ANI (or four random user talk pages like mine) anytime someone merely disagrees with them. ] (]) 14:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::I'd have said close with trout for all if not for creating the second thread at AN/I. Based on that I'd say the OP should be formally cautioned against such antics in the future. ] (]) 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::I should have added that I largely hold with Remsense in their position. ] (]) 14:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::] is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages, but we don’t have any evidence because understanding Misplaced Pages’s AfD process so quickly can be a bit challenging. I have no problem with AfD regarding my contributions, and it’s a good thing that experienced contributors are giving their feedback. If you believe that the kriji is 100% correct and her activity is not suspicious, then this discussion should be closed. ]] 14:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::You need to stop insisting this is definitely the case if you don't have any evidence for it, period. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 14:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::S-Aura, how did you make the determination {{tq|User:Kriji Sehamati‬ is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages}}? Please share your process. That's a personal attack, and requires proof to prevent you from being in violation of ]. I've looked at the AfDs and they seem reasonable to me. When you've provided strong sources the article is being kept. So far the jury is out on the others. Both of you seem to be writing articles about obscure living persons who wouldn't normally (by my cursory reading) have a Misplaced Pages article about them because reliable sourcing is not readily found. When I see that, I must suspect COI or undeclared unpaid editing here, but nobody's admitting to it. ] (]) 15:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::S-Aura's continuing to issue personal attacks makes it more difficult for us to just close this (without some form of consequence for the editor making unproven personal attacks after they've been warned repeatedly). ] (]) 15:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::I have made a level-four user talk page warning for the personal attack. FYI. We've been very nice about this up 'til now, but we need to stop being so kind. Doing foolish things has real world consequences. ] (]) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
* Both editors' apparent use of AI is certainly disruptive. If it continues, it should lead to blocks. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 15:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:No personal hate intended, but I just found this and thought it would be worth checking. ]] 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::It would be nice if you could explain the significance for those who do not speak Hausa. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::She had made contributions to pages in other languages a few months ago. I am attaching her contributions link. ]] 16:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::How does this constitute evidence of sockpuppetry if we aren't to know what exactly happened? There's a reason we don't just automatically block anybody who is blocked on another language wiki, and I looked through the edits some and didn't find anything outrageous that made it past the language barrier. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::I agree that it’s important to ensure we have solid evidence before making conclusions. I appreciate your perspective on not automatically blocking users based on blocks from other language wikis. ]] 17:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Please don't reply to me or others using ChatGPT. It is flat-out rude. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
* '''Support BOOMERANG''' - I've been uninvoled and have mainly just been watching the back-and-forths, but the personal attacks and ] mindset, such as "questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors", concerns me. Not sure for how long, but I don't think anything longer than a months is appropriate given the circumstances. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 15:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*This whole thread, but especially the 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC) comment, feels like the OP is just throwing literally everything at the wall to see what sticks. But, worse, what is being thrown at the wall lacks any significant body of evidence to support. I note that a personal attack warning has been given for the continued unfounded accusations being presented, which I think is a good move. I don't support a block at this point, although if I was the OP I would withdraw this complaint and/or drop the stick and walk away from this topic as a matter of urgency to avoid continuing to make the situation worse. ] (]) 17:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== Darkwarriorblake making aspersions ==
I must admit, I don't know the answer to that one... ]] 00:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
{{atop|result=The OP says they don't care any more which I'm reading as a withdrawal and the other party says they won't be responding again so I'm closing this discussion. My only comment is that both editors in this dispute should have brought this to the article talk page to talk this disagreement out. I don't know if the differences would be resolved but this is what we advise editors to do when their edits are reverted. Now I just have to get that scene in the movie out of my mind. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
:I suspect that you have some idea to the answer; but here is my understanding of the situation. All contributors are required to conform to the rules, policies and guidelines of Misplaced Pages. ''However'', editors of long standing are often given more latitude in allowing them to stretch the definitions of said policies providing they are working to the spirit of the policies. ] (]) 11:12, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Postscript: Ah, someone just close this, I don't care any more. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 22:56, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:: ''Old-timers?'' (Chuckle.) I admit, I wasn't yet a member when LMS was still active on Misplaced Pages (he announced that he was leaving a week or two before I registered my account), but it appears neither is anyone else in this dispute: I remember when SqueakBox was a newbie. Since everyone is arguing from their interpretation of the evidence, this entire dispute could be considered a case of ]. In of this page, LMS describes himself "(with Jimbo Wales) the instigator of Misplaced Pages", a statement that went unchallenged until 2004, when ] & ] turned the article into a redirect, arguing in their comments that he failed notability. (It is worth noting that their edits were challenged at the time.) If we were to properly handle this according to NPOV guidelines, we'd quote this text, note that Jimbo currently disagrees with the statement -- & move on. No need to wonder about bending the rules -- ] (]) 19:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
----

I'm posting here after a particularly underwhelming interaction with an editor in the form of edit summaries. I'll need to provide the context of a brief content dispute which hopefully won't take too long and then get to the point. I'm not asking for anyone to take my side in the dispute.
===Happy holidays -let's have a truce===
I am very happy to not edit at all on this issue till January 2. I am re-considering my approach for then and gathering information, specifically about which articles are disputed as there are a fair few, re this issue and collating it off-wiki. This issue wont be resolved here, can we please just all chill, accept that every article involved the dispute is at the ] right now. I welcome comments on my talk page or via emails (private) from anybody re this issue. Thanks, ] 21:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:Until you withdraw your personal attacks accusing me of "trolling", and resolve to stop unilaterally changing the content without consensus or verifiable sources on your side accross the project, there's no "truce" to be had. ]] 21:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::Regardless of your opinion of SqueakBox's editing/POV this is an offer of peace that should be accepted. At the end all of this battle over co- or not co- is not helping here and the encyclopaedia does not need to be finished today. I've been watching this with some amusement since failing '']'' as a ]. All concerned in this ] and self-referential edit war need to relax, have a cup of tea and reread ] and ]. - 22:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC) <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) {{{2|}}}</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::Are you serious? He accuses all who disagree with him of "trolling", and then, when someone finally compiles the evidence of disruption and posts to AN/I, he offers a "truce"? And then you post the DICK and TIGERS links? Wow. ]] 22:39, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::::MrWhich, a ] was extended, in keeping with the holiday spirit. Let's not get all Grinchy, shall we? just accept the offer made in good faith and enjoy the rest of the festive week. There's a whole new year standing ahead of you, just waiting to be filled with squabbling and pettiness. A few days of harmony won't kill any of us. ] (]) 22:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::An admirable sentiment, but MrWhich is factually correct about sequencing and I don't detect any apology or sentiments of contrition in SqueakBox's "truce offer". Try and put yourself in MrWhich's shoes... ]] 22:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::::::Well, they did agree not to make the edits between now and January 2. That allows some tempers to cool, which can only be a good thing. ] 00:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

'''Moving to bottom, and adding a link to this user's treatment of the supposed "truce." Do with it what you want. I'm done.'''
He deleted my comment shortly after as "trolling" (a major issue in the above supposed "truce") which is why I had to link to an old version of the page. ]] 16:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:You mean where you talked about my beliefs being horse manure and bullshit. Of course I remove your personal attacks from my iuser talk. Now stop moving this thread,, this is unacceptable and trollish behaviour. Thanks, ] 18:28, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:And a truce does not mean I won't comment on the issue, especially in response to good faith users such as WAS, merely that I won't edit the main space re this issue till Jan 2nd at the earliest. Even though MrWhich claims he has now left the project I still won't be editing the main space re this issue until the holidays are well and truly over. Thanks, ] 19:12, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::Do you still think your behaviour was correct and deserves no sanction or reprimand, SqueakBox? ]] 21:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== the GFDL and attribution ==

I am trying to reconcile my understanding of {{tl|gfdl}} with the current mechanism for renaming categories.

Currently, unlike articles, when someone proposes renaming a category, a brand new category is created, with the new name, but the text of the old category. Its revision history shows it having a single author -- the robot that created it, not the actual human authors.

Any different revisions the text of the category underwent are lost. And, if I am not mistaken, if that category had a talk page, it is silently erased.

We grant generous rights when we release our contributions under the {{tl|gfdl}}
But don't we retain an entitlement to have the history of our contributions retained?

It seems to me the current mechanism doesn't retain the attributions in our contributions to the text of categories. ] (]) 20:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

:I think that the consensus is that the prose contents of categories are trivial, and mostly ] material which isn't subject to copyright in general; it's meta-information and not subject matter. I suppose there are cases where a category would bear enough originality and prose to be protectable, but then a simple acknowledgment in the edit log ''should'' do. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 21:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

::They are, or should be anyway. However, Cydebot does , so the information ''is'' retained in the history of the new page. If there's a talk page for a renamed category, it gets moved to the new name, e.g. and . About as good as can be done with the current system. ] ] 21:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Not all the editors are shown in the edit summary if the edit history is too long. Some of the edits made to category pages are creative enough that they should be preserved per the GFDL. A solution would be to ''move'' the category page to the new name (along with its talk page). The way that could be implemented is, I believe, as easy as making category pages ''move-protected'' by default, rather than having the software completely prevent movement of category pages. ] (]) 01:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::I think that that's simply a great idea. Though I have a vague recollection that categories should be "empty" before "turning into" a page (which then can be moved). - ] 02:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::In answer to Coren -- I have started categories where the text has been vandalized. I have started categories where the contents clearly were longer than too trivial to merit copyright protection. I don't see how the suggestion that a mention in the edit log could be sufficient for those instances where the category has been vandalized, or has been the subject of disagreement, or edit warring. It still seems to me that this does not fulfill the wikipedia's obligations to honor the rights contributor's retain under the {{tl|gfdl}}.

::I don't understand why category renaming should lose the edit history, when the edit history is not lost when articles are renamed. ] (]) 14:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::If I am not mistaken the current mechanism erases the content of comments in ] space. I checked my edit history and came across a contribution to ]. Even if, for the sake of argument, the comments here were misplaced -- I dispute that this means they should be flushed without any warning or discussion. ] (]) 15:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::There are almost a dozen entries in the edit history of ]. If trashing the talk pages of categories is due to a programming design choice then, IMO, it was a poorly advised one. See also:
::*]
::*]
::*]
::*]
::Cheers! ] (]) 15:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::For the record, administrators can see deleted edits. You have over 100 deleted edits that were made to various Guantanamo Bay categories (most were discussed at ]), and 6 that were made to category talk pages. I agree that category talk page discussion is sometimes very useful and should be kept if the editor wants to put the thoughts somewhere else. I have 17 deleted category talk edits and over 150 deleted category namespace edits. I'd be happy to retrieve your category talk edits if you want them. ] (]) 19:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== Blocking discussion and vandalizing AfD ==

I tagged the ] article as having some article issues and also tagged for a suggested merge to the ] article] on the 24th under the assertion that it does not meet the notability requirements to be a standalone article and is almost entirely plot and game quites. ] reverted the tagging on the List article on early on the 26th proclaiming there was no discussion. I retagged and started a discussion.. He removed, again, saying my merge reasons made no sense. On the Uka Uka article, he also removed all of the tags on the article, claiming I "hate" the character and he called the tagging vandalism. Since this editor was blocking all attempts at a merge discussion, I gave up and AfDed the Uka Uka article. Less than two hours after I filed it, an anonymous IP vandalized the AfD and redirected it to the Uka Uka article. From the edit summary and the IP tracing back to the UK where CBFan is also located, I strongly suspect this was CBFan acting while not logged in (edit summary again said I hate the character and am biased against the series). CBFan seems to have some serious ownership issues over these articles and I believe he is crossing the line by refusing to even allow th]]e articles to be tagged for legitimate problems. My attempts as discussing the merge proposal just resulted in his again claiming I hate the character and have never played the game..

From his own user page, he is obviously a huge fan of the series and seems to be unable to look at the articles from the necessary neutral POV. I don't think further attempts to discuss the situation from me would be useful or have any positive results, so I am asking for admin intervention. ] (]) 00:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

*You have not provided a single legimate reason as to why the article should be merged or removed. The "reasons" you have given are either blatant lies or make no sense. Furthermore, Uka Uka clearly meets the criteria in order to have an article. I seriously suggest you rethink your discussion before putting ANY article up for merging or deletion. And yes, I am a fan of the Crash series. And that is how I know that the reasons you gave are blatant lies. HOWEVER, your claim that I can't look at an article neutrally is not only a blatant lie but it gives Crash fans a bad name. Look in the ] talk page, and you'll see that it was ME who suggested that the former article we had for Doctor Nitrus Brio be deleted because he didn't fulfill the criteria. Uka Uka does, so I don't see your problem. ] (]) 11:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

*Furthermore, now I've read your comments more clearly, putting an article up for deletion purely because you didn't get your own way is, really, not what we want for Misplaced Pages. If you don't get your own way, you need to accept it. ] (]) 11:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

*He is also canvassing ], ], ]. ] (]) 11:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

*I am canvassing nobody. I am meerly getting the attention of people who actually KNOW what they're doing. ] (]) 11:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
**Being obnoxious and messing with the process is not likely to help your case. If it is as notable as you say, there should be no problems, but your behavior is reflecting poorly on the case. ] (]) 12:15, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
***Considering that Uka Uka fits the strict rules that we made for a Crash Bandicoot character to have an article (that he/she should have appeared in half or more of all the Crash games, half or more of the six games in the Main Series and that he has a lot of material to work with), I really never saw the problem. He is notable. N Brio, who previously had an article, did not, and that's why he was deleted. Then add the fact that Collectonian didn't help either by actually deleting any attempts to fix the article. Currently, the way I see it is that either Uka Uka is allowed to keep his article via the guidelines written out, or only Crash is. Certainly, there is no reason as to why Uka Uka's article, and by this I mean ''only'' his article, should be deleted, especially as Collectonian failed to post any legimate reasons as to why that should be the case. ] (]) 13:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::Despite your repeated claims, I gave you very clear, specific reasons for why the article is not notable and should not exist. I tagged the article appropriately given those reasons, which you reversed as vandalism rather than addressing. I attempted a merge discussion, which you wouldn't even allow a chance to happen by continually removing the tags. You blatantly disregarded the reasons the article is not notable and act as if you are some how the ] of the Crash articles, which you aren't. Some rules "you" and three other fans may have made for the character have the article are pointless and highly inappropriate if they are blatantly disregarding Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. You yourself agreed on the article talk page that he had no real-world notability, yet you refuse to allow the issues to be address and the articles improved.
::::To add to my report, as Ridernyc noted, he is indeed canvassing other users, referring to me as Mr Uka-Uka hater. , , . He has made a blantantly false accusation that I deleted attempted improvements to the article when the only thing I removed from the article was shoving in even more game references and removing the addition of a category currently up for deletion which CBFan himself also did. He also appears to be admitting to being the IP that vandalized the AfD with his repeated claim that I've given no reason for the AfD. He is doing the same on the article talk page happily backed up by Illustrious One (who should have been ANIed for his behavior in the Lord of Darkness AfD, but was given the benefit of the doubt, but considering his responses to CBFan, I see now he shouldn't have been given such a free pass).] (]) 16:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::You did not give ANY reasons whatsoever for why the article should not exist. All you did was post nonsense. You said, and I quote, "''Uka Uka is a single character in the game series'' '''with no notability outside of the game'''". The half in italics is nonsense, as he has appeared in 10 games, so he can't be a "single" character, and the half in bold makes no sense, as that could go for absolutly EVERY single fictional character in existance, video game or otherwise. And I can't help but notice you've gone against the conduct of "being civil", because you're telling blatant lies about me...I obviously deleted the tag because your reasons didn't even warrant addressing, I never disregarded the reasons because there were no reasons to begin with, I never agreed on anything concerning "Real world notibility" and '''I''' never came up with any of those rules in the first place. If anyone is acting like they run the place, it is ''you'', not me. I've already given you two options...either keep the Uka Uka article, or delete everyone's article but Crash's (because he certainly has had some of that "Real World notability" garbage you seem so insistant a Crash Bandicoot character should have yet no other fictional character needs). And yet you ignored both of those and continued on your "NO!! I DON'T WANT UKA UKA TO HAVE AN ARTICLE!!" rampage. Can't we at least act calm and sensibly about this rather than go on your rampant and extremely uncivil moans? And trust me, you ARE being very uncivil...and I should know. I've been there, done that, bought the flippin' T-Shirt. ] (]) 19:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::::I'd be perfectly fine with deleting all of the other articles. None of them establish real world notability and they do not qualify for articles of their own. However, I attempt to merge before suggesting delete, which I politely tried to do in this case and you prevented from happening resulting in it going up for deletion. With your reaction to my tagging a single article, of course I'm not going to bother tagging the rest just so you can insult me some more and revert them all. And, FYI, you are right, most fictional characters do NOT meet the ] requirements for having their own articles, and I (among many other editors) work to merge them into the appropriate lists or main articles or get them deleted. Uka Uka is a single character in a game series, he is NOT notable outside of the world of Crash Bandicoot. I haven't told any lies about you. You are the one accursing me of being a "Uka Uka hater," being on a rampage, etc. You were the one who blatantly refused to allow a merge discussion. You are one with a history of being blocked for being uncivil, and who continue to act uncivil here, in your talk page remarks, and in the AfD. ] (]) 19:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::::As I told you, quite clearly, I removed the tags because you had not provided a single legimate reason for wanting the article merged. I've highlighted BOTH reasons why I ignored your reasons, and yet you still have not appeared to noted them. In fact, you fail to notice that even now. Uka Uka has appeared in 10 games, so he can't be a single character. Take, in comparison, Rusty Walrus. He is a single character, as he has only appeared in Twinsanity, but does he have an article? No. He just has a mention in the "List of Crash Bandicoot characters". Crash, of course, has to have his own article, because he does meet the requirements (and besides, he's the main character of his series. You remove him, you'd have to remove Mario, Sonic and Spyro's articles). Oh, and, once again, you're telling lies about me. Here with " With your reaction to my tagging a single article, of course I'm not going to bother tagging the rest just so you can insult me some more and revert them all.", here with "You were the one who blatantly refused to allow a merge discussion." (as I told you...if there is no discussion, there's no reason to merge) and here with "who continue to act uncivil here, in your talk page remarks, and in the AfD." as you are the only person who is blatantly telling lies about me. Also, all those times I've been blocked for being uncivil are the faults of sockpuppets I've lost patience with, so you have no right in saying that nonsense. ] (]) 19:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::And, as I clearly stated, I canvassed nobody. I meerly alerted them to the problem. And, at the time, I had every reason to think you had something against Uka Uka and I still do, because you provide no reasons as to why he should not have an article, or even take suggestions into hand when I do suggest them. Once again, you are telling lies about me with those rediculous comments. Once again, just about EVERYTHING we know about EVERY single fictional character comes from in-game/movie/book references. Otherwise, obviously, it'd be fan-speculation. And believe me, there's no fan speculation in any of the Crash articles. If there were, it'd be deleted. Seriously, if anyone deserves an ANI, it's you, because not only are you trying to delete a reasonably good article that could easily be improved on for no apparant reason other than you don't want that article there, but you are also telling lies, being uncivil and generally refusing to listen to suggestions about alternative ways around this. And, once again, trust me, I've been down that way and it is '''not''' a path I wish to go down again. As I see, you have three options here...1: Provide some proper reasons as to why Uka Uka shouldn't have an article, 2: Keep Uka Uka's article and tell us what needs adjusting, or 3: Delete EVERY article in the "Crash Bandicoot character" section except Crash's (because, as I said, he certainly has that world notifiable nonsense you keep moaning about. Whatever you do, try to keep reasonable. ] (]) 19:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== ] 2 ==

Hi, I am being harassed by this user, and am not sure what to do.

OrangeMarlin has a history of viciously attacking anyone who says a word in my defense, and has done so again today.

On December 25, he filed a request for ArbCom enforcement against me, but his request was opposed by many editors: violet/riga, Thatcher, Ghostmonkey57, The Evil Spartan, and Sbowers3. Nevertheless, OrangeMarlin continues to harass me by making frivolous threats to seek ArbCom enforcement against me, regarding the exact same issue that those other editors weighed in about. Frankly, I would like some help here. So, in the holiday spirit, can someone please risk the further wrath of OrangeMarlin by helping me out here? Thanks.] (]) 05:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:You're the one on parole, not me. And my complaint was supported by many more editors. So, go for it dude. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 05:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::I have not been blocked or banned from any topic or article, and am as free as you are to edit appropriately.] (]) 05:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

*my advice to both of you is to chill out. my observations are that both of you push the edge of what is acceptable behavior, knock it off. --] (]) 05:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::That's the whole point, Rocksanddirt, I am trying to get OrangeMarlin to knock it off. He is insisting upon deleting longstanding accurate images at the ] article, against consensus. Those images have been in the article for many months, and he has no consensus to delete them. He has not suggested any particular inaccuracy about them, and the images are amply supported by medical sources. They do not represent any POV. OrangeMarlin is POV-pushing; he does not want a fetus to be accurately shown, and so he is seeking to delete the images. Simple as that. OrangeMarlin has some fantasy that I am a pro-life Christian (I am neither).] (]) 05:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Aren't you under ]? ] (]) 05:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::::I believe I said so in my initial comment.] (]) 05:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::Then why are you edit-warring? You say you are "as free as you are to edit appropriately", but you aren't "as free as " to edit ''in''appropriately. So why not just stop edit warring? ] (]) 05:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::I did not revert OrangeMarlin's POV deletion of the images. I'm here seeking advice about his POV-pushing and his harassment, and his attacking anyone who supports me (saying he can't wait to see them "fucked" and calling them "antisemites"). If Misplaced Pages is going to empower people like OrangeMarlin, then Misplaced Pages is in big big trouble. I realize you folks work together, and I'm sure the emails have been flying, but isn't there some minimal level of acceptable conduct?] (]) 06:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


:::There is a real easy way to avoid trouble FL. And you know what that is? The easy way to avoid trouble is to just...avoid trouble. You are a big boy I know and you know how to do that. So why tempt fate? Do you have some sort of masochistic streak? Do you love to get in fights? What is wrong with you anyway? Come on. Just play nice.--] (]) 06:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::::See ] (]) 06:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::::If you are under arbcomm restrictions, why are you engaging in this sort of behaviour? You are edit warring, and claiming that you were returning to the "consensus" position...and yet, over the course of several days, no one has supported your edits. You are under arbcomm restrictions. You should not be edit warring. Since you are engaging in questionable behaviour, the ''correct'' course of action is for other editors to warn you that you are headed down the wrong path. The fact that you haven't gone ''far enough'' down that path to warrant a block doesn't mean your behaviour is acceptable. Given your restrictions you need to be mindful of the advice given by other editors. "Thank you, I'll try to avoid that in future" is the correct response, not "You're harassing me!" As a result of ''your own actions'' you don't have as much freedom of action as other editors. Try listening to the advice given to you by other editors. Err on the side of caution. Don't edit war, not when you are restricted. That's just common sense. ] (]) 06:12, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::::Guettarda, instead of making incorrect pronouncements like "no one has supported your edits", why don't you visit the ], and the , and you'll see that there was plenty of support? Or you might actually use your own judgment, and think to yourself: isn't it appropriate for an article about the ] to have accurate images of the fetus? The "behavior" that I am engaged in is attempting to prevent a POV-pusher from suppressing very valuable, longstanding, accurate, well-sourced information here at Misplaced Pages.] (]) 06:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::You are under arbcomm restriction, and you are edit warring. That is unacceptable behaviour, whether it gets you re-blocked or not. You are under arbcomm restrictions, so you ''need'' to listen to advice and warnings given to you by other editors. If you have "consensus" behind you, you have no need to edit war - someone else, who ''isn't'' under arbcomm restriction, will fix the article. If you find yourself in a position where you "need" to revert other editors, repeatedly, then you apparently ''don't'' have consensus. Regardless, there is ''no'' reason for you to edit war. Misplaced Pages won't collapse if the images are absent for a few hours. If you can't refrain from edit-warring, you need to step away from the article for a while. Because, after all, you ''are'' under restriction. ] (]) 06:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::Guettarda, I am not edit-warring. I am here trying to discuss another editor, whom I have not reverted, who has been harassing me and POV-pushing. I'm sorry that you choose not to address the harassment and the POV-pushing. Good night.] (]) 06:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::::Yes, you are edit-warring. You admit as much above. You are under arbcomm restriction. Repeatedly reverting another editor is edit warring. On top of everything else, you were revert-warring while making claims of "consensus" which are not backed up either by the article's edit history or on the talk page. Filing a complaint against another editor who warns you that you are in violating at least the spirit of your restrictions (and, as I see it, the letter) appears to be little more than an attempt to stir up trouble for another editor because he had the gall to call you out on your misbehaviour. I see edit warring, refusal to listen to advice, and tendentious behaviour here. This is troubling behaviour on your part that badly needs to be addressed. Making unsubstantiated (and allegations of "POV-pushing" and "harassment" is also unacceptable. ] (]) 07:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:::There is a real easy way to avoid trouble FL. And you know what that is? The easy way to avoid trouble is to just...avoid trouble. You are a big boy I know and you know how to do that. So why tempt fate? Do you have some sort of masochistic streak? Do you love to get in fights? What is wrong with you anyway? Come on. Just play nice.--] (]) 06:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

FL, you are the editor with the long history of behavior problems, isnt that so? And the one with an agenda to push. And the one on probation for doing exactly what you just did with those images. I think someone on probation would use common sense and just recuse themselves from all editing and discussion of articles where they are known to have a problem, and are basically unwelcome. Wouldn't that be the sensible, neighborly thing to do?--] (]) 05:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::Sure Filll, don't address anything I actually said. Just complain that I don't impose a harsher penalty on myself than ArbCom imposed.] (]) 05:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

You should be smarter than this FL. Keep your nose clean, for gosh sakes. Clean up your act and stop acting in a fashion that is not likely to end positively for you or for WP.--] (]) 05:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:See .] (]) 06:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Filll, why are you resorting to personal attacks? Ferrylodge is, I'm sure, someone who steps over boundaries at times. That does not mean he has given up the right to come and make a legitimate complaint here. People should be able to come here and count on being treated fairly- even if they are ''not'' good editors, if they have a real complaint, that complaint should be dealt with as any other. And they should not be subject to personal attacks. This is the administrator's noticeboard. Are there any neutral admins here, who in addition to getting the facts right and trying to get Ferrylodge not to edit war, will give his complaint a fair and neutral hearing? WP is in very bad shape indeed when you can't count on AN/I. ——''']'''</span> ] Ψ ]<span style="color:#ffffff;">——</span> 06:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:I've protected the wrong version of this page for a week, or until a ]. I suggest Ferrylodge continue the very genial discussion began on the talk page, and reflect on the principle that edit warring ''can'' be considered disruptive. I further suggest that people engaged in disputes with other editors refrains from appearing out of the blue to revert them, since that can be considered disruptive as well &mdash; not to mention more than a little intimidating. I might mention I'm more than a little concenred about the tone some people are using with Ferrylodge. Just because someone is under parole, does not mean they should be treated like an errant child, or are not equally worthy of respect as other Wikipedians. Treat each other like adults. --] (]) 07:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::''Just because someone is under parole, does not mean they should be treated like an errant child''. True. But look at FL's behaviour - he denies the facts that are clear to everyone (not edit warring? supported by consensus? defender of NPOV?), drags months-old comments unrelated to him to try to paint OM as "vicious" in his response to FL... He's under restriction, but he refuses to see why he should not engage in edit warring. And when someone calls him on his misbehaviour, what does he do? Bring false claims of POV pushing and harassment here. That's unacceptable behaviour for ''any'' editor, not merely one whose behaviour has earned him both a community block and arbcomm restrictions. ] (]) 07:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::I'm taking about comments like "You should be smarter than this FL. Keep your nose clean, for gosh sakes." No one over the age of 12 should be frankly ''chided'' in such a tone &mdash; it is distinctly humiliating and could easily be provocative. My comments are not about the ''substance'' of the comments made (since I am, honestly, unfamiliar), but rather the tone in which they are delivered. Editors should be able to discuss behavior they believe is "bad" on the part of another user without treating that user like a child. --] (]) 07:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::Wow- now that's more like what I'd expect on here (: ——''']'''</span> ] Ψ ]<span style="color:#ffffff;">——</span> 07:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow - I just realised the diff FL was using as the basis of his claim that "OrangeMarlin has a history of viciously attacking anyone who says a word in my defense". It's a diff from ''October'' which was related not to B's "defense of FL", but rather, to B's witch hunt in which he tried to use FL's RFAr to attack other editors, one the admin who implemented the community block of FL (but was otherwise uninvolved in the issue), and the other who was totally unrelated. B's attacks and insinuations were highly inappropriate, and deserving of criticism. Whatever the issue, using these comments to try to portray OM as someone with a vendetta against FL is highly misleading. ] (]) 07:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:He may not have much of a complaint, or even made a complaint when he shouldn't, or he or may not have presented it well. But he still deserves to be told so in a civil tone. ——''']'''</span> ] Ψ ]<span style="color:#ffffff;">——</span> 08:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::Personally, I preferred your comment when it was . Regarding your comment, there are degrees of "wrong," and losing one's temper ('civility') is a rather human response to a prolonged problem. <font color="red">]</font><font color="blue">]</font> <sup><font color="darkred">]</font></sup> 08:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Wow Guettarda, I am surprised at how you mischaracterize things. The person who you say was "totally unrelated" to my RFAr was in fact deeply involved, in both , and in trying to get me banned from Misplaced Pages during the ArbCom proceedings. Anyway, what OrangeMarlin said to B was reprehensible, and completely consistent with what OrangeMarlin said to Evil Spartan a few hours ago when Evil Spartan spoke up in my behalf. I am surprised that you defend that kind of filthy incivility.] (]) 08:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::::I mischaracterised nothing. OM's comments to B were not because he was "defending" you. Your opening is misleading and your entire premise is false. ''You'' are under arbcomm restriction. ''You'' are edit warring. What you ''should' have done is take responsibility for your own actions. Instead, when someone raises the issue of your misbehaviour, you string together a number of unrelated issues, totally mischaracterise their role, and try to attack them. Your behaviour is unacceptable. ] (]) 16:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe a number of Orangemarlin's recent edits have been uncalled for, but not on an excessively disruptive level. Granted, it is understandable to perceive The Evil Spartan's comment (that used the ch-word) as a snide comment aimed at Orangemarlin's religion, and it is understandable for someone to get upset if they feel someone is making fun of their religion, it would have been more professional to leave a personal note on The Evil Spartan's user page explaining how the comment can be perceived to be offensive, instead of publically throwing around the term anti-Semite. But the Orangemarlin had already received a warning from an involved admin about this before FL even filed this complaint, so it seems like everything on that matter had been settled.

On the second half of FL's complaint, there is also some validity. First, I'd like to point out that there isn't only opposition to the ] thread. That said, Orangemarlin's edit summary of the revert on fetus, plus the talk page comment were inappropriate. In the edit summary, Orangemarlin mentioned reporting FL to ArbCom, which appears to be an idle threat, because no subsequent report occurred. On the talk page comment, Orangemarlin mentioned "tak pleasure in reverting Ferrylodge's POV edits".

Finally, I agree with Haemo's comment ''I further suggest that people engaged in disputes with other editors refrains from appearing out of the blue to revert them, since that can be considered disruptive as well — not to mention more than a little intimidating.''

In summary, I believe Orangemarlin has been a little brash, and should try to be more careful in the future. We should all try to be nice and civil to other editors, even the ones with whom we disagree. Hopefully, my comments, and the comments of a few others, can be taken by Orangemarlin to be constructive criticism, and no further admin action is necessary.

As for the content dispute itself, AN/I cannot solve content disputes, and we shouldn't be discussing content here. RfC and other tools can be used to help resolve disputes. I will make one general statement: While I can understand reverting to an older, longstanding version when someone tries to add controversial new content. When it comes to deletions, it's better to keep the controversial material out of the article until there is a new consensus (because the burden is always on the ones wanting to include content). The "long standing content" argument doesn't seem to work here because this is a case of deletion, not addition. Long standing content can become stale. (if that makes sense. I feel like I could have worded that better).-]&nbsp;</sup>]] 14:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:This is one of the better comments here - well balanced and on target. Most of the preceding discussion has been about edit warring and that is not the subject of this section. This section was started with a complaint of harassment and that should have been the topic of discussion. The discussion of edit warring should be (and is being) covered elsewhere. I agree with AndrewC's comments and also with Rocksanddirt: "my advice to both of you is to chill out. my observations are that both of you push the edge of what is acceptable behavior, knock it off." ] (]) 17:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::In reply to Andrew, let me say a few things. It is my right to interpret (or, I assume, misinterpret) racial or bigoted comments against me. I have taught my children that liberties and rights are taken away a little at a time. I have no clue if Evil Spartan is Jewish, Agnostic or Christian. Hell, he could be Druid for all I care. It appeared to me that his commentary was anti-Semitic, since he intentionally used the word in a manner that I found bigoted. As long as members of my family (and I'm older, so I'm just a generation removed) were murdered by Nazis, I get to be more sensitive that what you may assume is required by the situation. Again, walk in my shoes, before criticizing my feelings on this.
::As for the other comments you made, the threat was not idle, but it appeared, as Ferrylodge does always, that the conversation moved to here. I felt that defending my good name was more critical than piling on at the other commentary.
::I disagree that there is a content dispute. There is accurate, verifiable and reliable sourcing for information, and there is POV-warrioring. I don't POV warrior, I defend NPOV that does not utilize undue weight, that is not a Fringe Theory, and that does utilize reliable and verifiable sources. What the POV-warrior whine about me is that I stick by that in the same exact manner that is used by those who do not rely upon those sources.
::Finally, I am offended that many of you give credence to the lies spread by Ferrylodge. Not to repeat Guettarda, but give me a break, he is under parole. He can be reverted. And he can't edit war. He's violated his probation. I stand by that.
::Andrew, I do appreciate your response as being very calm and reasoned. You're just plain wrong, however. You are on my case, when I've done absolutely nothing wrong. Oh, I did cause big storm which will go towards Ferrylodge's eventual banning. So, I'm going to pour a glass a scotch, smoke a big fat Cuban cigar, and laugh my ass off. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 22:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::Ferrylodge is not on probation. Until such time as an uninvolved administrator bans him from an article AND he violates that article ban, he is not in violation of any arbcom sanction. --] (]) 22:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

====Re: Harassment Accusation vs OrangeMarlin====

If it is the consensus here that OrangeMarlin's action vs. Ferrylodge do not rise to the level of harassment, then this discussion should be closed. There is no point in fanning the flames or providing a forum to continue the dispute if no administrator action is warranted. If that is not the consensus, please direct your comments to that specific allegation (or start a more appropriate thread). ]] 23:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

===Motion to ban Ferrylodge from Misplaced Pages===
{{archive top}}
;Motion rejected.{{unsigned|JzG}}
*'''Endorse banning Ferrylodge from Misplaced Pages''' -- Ferrylodge is clearly a ]. I have seen enough from this thread alone to see that this is what is going on. I believe a community ban is in order. Since the last community ban was overturned by arbcomm, there has been ample opportunity for second chances to be given to this user. Obviously, Misplaced Pages is not the right place for him since he views it solely as a battleground. Show him the door and give himself and the community a break. ] (]) 09:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::What are the procedures nowadays for a Community Ban? Are there any particular standards? It seems to me that the ArbCom decision has already given you a remedy to pursue, and you ought to pursue it if you think I've violated what ArbCom asked of me. As I said, OrangeMarlin has a history of attacking, and he has done so again today by levelling absurd charges of antisemitism against someone who was speaking up for me. I have no regrets about bringing that fact to people's attention. I'm sorry you choose to overlook it. As a Jew, I take great offense when I hear frivolous bogus charges of antisemitism, because it trivializes the real thing. Today, OrangeMarlin also to revert an article he was not involved in, thereby causing the article to be protected, while falsely accusing me in his edit summary of POV edits and of violating ArbCom restrictions (when all I did was restore longstanding sourced content that had been removed against consensus).] (]) 09:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::"''when all I did was restore longstanding sourced content that had been removed against consensus''" - actually, from the discussion on the talk page at Fetus, there was some support for OrangeMarlin's change, which continues to grow, while it appears that you were the only one in opposition. A stale article is hardly evidence of consensus. <font color="red">]</font><font color="blue">]</font> <sup><font color="darkred">]</font></sup> 09:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::::I have not reverted OrangeMarlin. Before he swooped in, there were two editors (myself and Ghostmonkey57) who were against removing the longstanding, well-sourced, accurate images; one editor was seeking to remove the images (i.e. IronAngelAlice). You would see that I am telling the truth if you would read the talk page. If consensus is to remove the pictures, then I have no desire or inclination to stand in the way of that consensus, no matter how misguided it is.] (]) 09:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::::These comments do not inspire faith in this editor. How much abuse has to be hurled before we decide an editor is being ] and ]? I see every indication that Ferrylodge is sewing havoc where 'ere Ferrylodge roams. Has there been even a single contribution that was positive today? ] (]) 09:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::::If you're asking about article edits during the past 24 hours, they've been much fewer than on previous days, due to all of this ArbCom-related stuff. However, I did manage to make some fairly extensive edits to an article about, as well as an article about . The day before, I made quite a few edits to several articles regarding ]. None of the aforementioned has been altered or reverted. You can look at my contributions, of course. ScienceApologist, I'm sorry that you think the fault is all mine.] (]) 09:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::YMMV. One way to avoid being banned is to avoid contentious arguments. If you are proud of the contributions that you outline and think that they will stand up to all scrutiny, why do you insist on making edits that make us question whether it is worth it to have you around as an editor? ] (]) 09:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::ScienceApologist, I assume that the edits to which you refer are the edits where I sought to restore images of a human fetus to the ] article. I do not understand why anyone is criticizing those edits. At the time I made those edits, the images had been in the article for more than four months, and two editors were opposing the removal by only one editor. Have you heard of the administrator ]? He looked at those particular edits of mine, and said I was not being disruptive at all:
:::::::::::"I have a problem with the characterization of FerryLodge's conduct as disruptive. A lot of that depends on context and on the point of view of the other editors....These drawings do not come from a partisan pro-life web site but from a commercial site for expectant mothers that seels advertising. (As such, the links should perhaps be removed, however). Is there a question about there accuracy, and in that case, has anyone tried to find images from medical or scientific sources? The rationale for complaining about these images seems extremely suspect, and the idea that an article on ] will describe but not illustrate the stages of fetal development seems to be an extreme point of view of its own....I can not see how the article on ] can not have drawings of different stages of development (assuming they are accurate)...."
::::::::::ScienceApologist, I came here in good faith with what I thought were some fairly straightforward complaints about OrangeMarlin. And instead I'm threatened with a community ban for some perfectly reasonable edits. I don't quite know what to make of it. He goes around calling people who support me "antisemites". He swoops down on an article he's not involved in, and reverts while accusing me of POV, when he knows that admins like Thatcher have already said otherwise. I just don't know what else to say.] (]) 10:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::So you've got a chip on your shoulder and want to see OrangeMarlin disciplined. Again, I am pointing out to you that you have a lot more to lose than gain from this kind of argumentation. ] (]) 18:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
*'''Reject, this is pure harrassment.''' People, please stop attacking the person who is making a genuine complaint. Deal with the complaint instead. ] (]) 14:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
*As a condition of his unblock, Ferrylodge was placed on arbcomm restriction. Despite that, he is unrepentant, engaging in edit warring despite the restrictions, and engaging in highly uncivil behaviour here and at the ]. He is making false representations throughout this discussion and at ]. He is ''back'' to attacking Tvoz. He is back to his pattern of harassing female editors. I believe that he was exhausted the patience of the community. I '''support''' the idea of a '''community ban''' as proposed by SA. ] (]) 16:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::I did not realize that OrangeMarlin was female. However, I would have made the exact same statement about her anyway.] (]) 17:53, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
*'''Reject, I agree that this is pure harrassment.'''I don't even like Ferrylodge (no offense Ferrylodge)and would like to see him gone from wikipedia, but I have also seen how trollish and abusive Orangemarlin can be. I have also seen how orangemarlin's friends act in unison to reach their common goals and squash opposition. This is neither the time or place to discuss a community ban of Ferrylodge and I don't see a reason for banishment. ] (]) 17:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::None taken.] (]) 17:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
**He hasn't violated the terms of his arbcom restrictions. ] says, "Ferrylodge is subject to an editing restriction indefinitely. Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing." Since no uninvolved administrator has seen fit to impose an article ban, Ferrylodge is permitted to edit that article as any other editor is. He was not restricted to 1RR or any such thing and thus was under no requirement to not revert the removal of the pictures. Even if an admin were to at some future time impose such an article ban, to claim that he violated it retroactively is incorrect. --] (]) 18:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

*'''Reject''' - premature. Ferrylodge has not clearly violated the terms of the ArbCom result. (His edits at ] were at worst borderline and possibly worth a warning.) If he violates those terms then he should receive perhaps a short-term topic ban. If he continued then maybe a permanent topic ban. (Again, we aren't anywhere near that point yet.) Only then would it be appropriate to consider a broader ban. ] (]) 17:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

*'''Support, conditionally''' That Ferrylodge is not able to understand the point of the arbcom ruling, and the intent, and still continues to engage in contentious editing of one of these sensitive articles, after he agreed not to, is a very bad sign. I have seen evidence of extremely foul and disrespectful shameful behavior from Ferrylodge for about a year now. This is just one more insult, spat in the face of the community bending over backwards to give him the benefit of the doubt, and one more chance, again and again. I for one have just about had enough. Should we let him run rampant and terrorize more editors on Misplaced Pages? Or should we reign him in? He apparently has no respect for the consensus and wishes of the community. I personally have no idea if these images and edits are appropriate or not; what concerns me is that Ferrylodge saw fit to engage in this kind of campaign ''yet again'' to support his edits. Now Ferrylodge, in the dishonest dirty underhanded backstabbing cheating lying pettyfogging world you live in in the real world, this sort of behavior, demagoguery and sophistry might be permissible, but it is not welcome on Misplaced Pages, believe me. I am not so easily swayed by your antics as these others are, since I know your history. If you cannot behave in a reasonable civilized fashion and abide by community values here on Misplaced Pages, then we do not need you. Goodbye.--] (]) 18:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
**This post contains more personal attacks than I have seen from Ferrylodge. --] (]) 18:53, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
*'''Reject''' as harassment as stated by others succinctly above... ] (]) 18:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
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== Arthur Ellis sockpuppet again ==

{{resolved|Blocked by ] ] (] | ]) 19:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)}}
(Now copied to the bottom for visibility, left here for context) ] (] | ]) 18:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Community-banned user {{user|Arthur Ellis}} now seems to be using {{user|64.26.148.20}}. Can someone please block it as we did for {{user|64.26.147.175}} three days ago? For more background, please see see ]). See also ]. Thanks, ] (] | ]) 05:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

===And another obvious sock===
{{resolved|Sockpuppet blocked. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 15:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)}}
Could someone familiar with the Arthur Ellis background please also take a look at {{user|Chucky the barber}}? His first edit to an article consisted of reverting to a 5-day-old version of an article frequently edited by ]. I am not sure if this is an Arthur Ellis sock but it is certainly not a new or helpful account. ] (] | ]) 06:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not a "sock". It seems anyone who disagrees with Clayoquot is a "sock". I reverted the ] article to a POV-tag version after Clayoquot said her altered picture of him made him look more "dignified". Seems like a POV comment to me. ] (]) 14:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== {{User|Workurban}} ==

{{userlinks|Workurban}} may be a sockpuppet of a banned user. "Workurban" is probably a name inspired by those annoying captcha confirmation codes when you register an account or forget your password. Sockpuppeteers have been known to use these captchas to name their accounts. His first edit is to "remove POV" from ]. If this looks familiar, please investigate. ] (] • ]) 06:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== NPA problem with disruptive editor ==

;"you are a mentally-ill freak, an idiot, and above all, a madman and a lunatic!"

] has several months worth of NPA warnings on his talk page, as well as article talk pages where he interacts. Stuff is totally unacceptable to civil editing. Additionally, in an edit summary, ,

Additionally he is disruptive (deleting sourced information, using socks to back up his opinion) to the ] article because of his personal dislike of the topic. I suggested several months ago that he not edit articles on topics that he doesn't like but he's been acting out like this on this article for .

Kindness has not been a way to get through to this user about either civility or article disruption. His userpage claims ] but that cannot excuse such gross incivility as the headline. Admin attention is needed. ] (])

:He appears to have taken a leave of absence. I reckon he got a little ], and realizes it. I think we'll have to wait and see if this affects any change in his behavior. --] (]) 07:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::I hadn't noticed that. He's sporadic already, but I've tired of his appearances on some pages. A break should be well enough. ] (])

== V-Dash quattro ==

After reviewing the contribs of {{user|SPD V}}, I have blocked him indef and, as per JzG's warning to him ], blocked {{user|V-Dash}} for two weeks for abusive sockpuppetry. I would appreciate a review of my block. -'']'' <sup>(<font color="0000FF">] ]</font>)</sup> 09:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:It's a little difficult to determine the relationship between SPD V and V-Dash, since the former only edited article space and the latter seems to have recently confined themselves to the talkpage. Providing you are certain that the correctly indef blocked puppet was being used by V-Dash then I concur with that block also, per JzG's warning. ] (]) 12:12, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::SPD V was edit-warring over the exact same things that earned V-Dash his last 3RR block from me - the genre section of ]. Also, his talkpage post there, written in French, is little more than a chastising towards those who do not fit his POV that D&P is a straight RPG (minus the J), i.e. most everyone. -'']'' <sup>(<font color="0000FF">] ]</font>)</sup> 21:12, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::I saw a lot of edits to the same articles, but wasn't able to establish a consistent pov (because most of V-Dash's edits were a revert war over the same couple of sentences on the talkpage). If you are happy that SPD V is not an impersonator sock account designed to get V-Dash into trouble then I am happy too. ] (]) 22:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::Your comment made me consider the last post by SPD V, which was in French. I am not certain whether V-Dash knows ] and so I amended the SPD V ] to ask if this is PolluxFrost. -'']'' <sup>(<font color="0000FF">] ]</font>)</sup> 07:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

== Closing AfD without consensus by ] ==

{{archive top}}
This user closes AfD without consenus, he did it twice without reason . What to do? ''']<sup>]</sup>''' 09:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
*You were arguing for a ''merge'', not deletion, and thus AfD would not have helped your cause. I see no misdeeds by good ol' G. -'']'' <sup>(<font color="0000FF">] ]</font>)</sup> 09:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
*1. That looks like he did it "once", and 2. He provided a very clear reason. Just because you don't like the reason, doesn't mean he didn't give one. ] (]) 09:15, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
*Further, preservation of Misplaced Pages's copyright (GFDL) prohibits deleting ''and'' merging, as the history of contributors must be maintained; thus, merging must be followed by redirecting the source page, not deleting it. Also, if an article has content worth keeping, there is really nothing to accomplish by deleting instead of redirecting (if the GFDL requirements didn't exist). Consider that any content "deleted" from Misplaced Pages remains on the servers, the logs viewable to normal users, and the content itself viewable to admins. As such, deleting content does not inherently benefit Misplaced Pages by saving space or through any other manner. Deleting content only ever benefits Misplaced Pages by making permanently invisible (to regular editors) content that is, for whatever reason, "bad." So what happened here wasn't any bad move by Uncle G, who was merely immediately closing an AFD whose nomination would be impossible (and without purpose) to actually satisfy. For future note, you should really try to work things out with the admin you disagree with before bringing it here, instead of just reverting him and telling him he has no right to do that. ] (]) 09:28, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
*{{user|Tulkolahten}} is edit warring. First he puts up ] for deletion, trying to deny the century-old German history of the University in ], the he edit-wars with the closing admin. Next thing he just did was moving ], forced by Czechs, an event in which over 5000 Germans were killed, to ]. A German who would do a similar thing in Germany or Austria would be severly punished for holocaust denial. --&nbsp;]&nbsp;]&nbsp; 09:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
**Nobody is denying anything, I just moved the page from biased words to sourced unbiased words. And I also explained the part of the massacre per source. ''']<sup>]</sup>''' 09:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
*I've restored the closure once, as well as pointed ] to the boldfaced text in that closure. I'm busy writing {{On AFD|World Conference against Racism 2001|Durban Strategy}}. I'd appreciate it if another administrator dealt with restoring the closure again and explaining to ], perhaps in another way, what the boldfaced words apparently have not explained. (See also ].) ] (]) 09:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

== User:Antolikebeer ==

{{resolved}}

User Antolikebeer should be blocked from editing due to his vandalism on certain pages

Check the history for ]. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Thanks for the report; I've given him a final warning. Next time, please report continual vandalism to ], as you will most likely get a faster response there. ] (]) 10:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== User:Fishpaste15 ==

] has created ], ], ], ] today. They have been "prod"ed per ], but I suspect that this is pure vandalism. --] (]) 11:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:One wonders at the quality of this user's edits elsewhere: . ] (]) 13:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== Apology ==

This is an appology from Ben Lavender (Iamandrewrice) for originally pretending that my friend's (Joe) account was mine.
My account name was 'Iamandrewrice.' Another person, called Andrew Rice, got annoyed with me about this, and decided to also try and impersonate me. When I pretending that Joe's account was mine, he got annoyed with me too, and that is when my then only account got blocked, as did Joe's, and he made more accounts to try and evade the unfair block, but gradually, as tempers rose, those accounts became less constructive. He says that he is greatly sorry for this (I am on the fone to him right now, and his IP address is blocked, so I have to say this for him). Also, another friend called Alex was greatly involved, but I cannot contact him right now, as he is currently visiting his mother in hospital. Joe would now like me to write his exact words of appology:

"hello wikipedia, this is Jose, I would like to profusely appologize for my vandalism and disruption of the wikipedia system. To start off with, i had one account, 'Spidermanhero,' but when Ben got upset, he labelled my only account as his, so therefore, it was soon classed as a sockpuppet obviously, and blocked. I then created more accounts, i cant even remember their names. Because I was angry at ben and wikipedia for blocking my account unfairly, I made more accounts to get my point accross. As my temper rose, these accounts soon became disruptive. I also worked alongside Alex, and Im sure he is sorry too. I made one last account, 'Listsvery' and for the time period I was on there, I was editing constructively (please see contribs) and I really did want to help wikipdia. Alex also made the account 'Pollypenhouse' to edit constructively too, and by this time, neither of us was still attempting to im personate Ben. However, our accounts were labelled as sockpuppets of Ben's, which annoyed us greatly. So Alex and I took things into his our own hands and spoke to someone who we thought was very good with computers, Craig Bass, who then made personal attacks at Whitstable himself. Myself and Alex went logged onto Ben's myspace account and saw some emails we considered depressing, so Alex contacted EconomicsGuy with his concerns. Since then, we have explained the whole situation (well I have anyway) to Ben, and he has more or less said he forgives us. Hail Mary, full of grace! The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. I have asked God for forgiveness and hope that you can forgive me too. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death. Amen. " Here he says

well that was from Joe anyway.


Now my turn: I am so so sorry. I shouldnt have lied originally about my friend's account being my sockpuppet, just because I wanted to pretend to my adopter that I was a better user than I really was. I give you all a great appology for this. I really do understand how much wasted time this has cost us all. However, none of us ever wanted to vandalise, and i'm guessin that this state would have just spiralled even further out of control between us all. However, jeff threatened to tell the school about it all, so I, as well as everyone else involved (I am speaking for Alex here too, considering he is in hospital visiting his mother) got very scared by this, and decided that we must finally try and discuss this properly, and just lay down our truthful appology. I must add, that we all wanted to help contribute, but we understand that you are all very annoyed at the situation now, and will probably be glad to see that back of us, even if annoying you wasn't actually our original intention. We do hope however, that maybe at some point, we will be able to help contribute again, but obviously, we realise the limits of this. Again, i would like to give my sincere appology to everyone involved in this dilemna, and if I could give you back all those wasted hours of your precious time, I would. My only hope is that at this special time of year, we can forgive eachother, as I have done with my friends for impersonating me and logging onto my wikipedia/myspace accounts, and as my friends have done to me for getting their acccount blocked.



oh and also, someone called Craig got involved after Alex spoke to him. 'User:Fishyghost'

in addition to this, the person called Andrew Rice in real life, has an account called 'User:Andyman949,' and I think he was involved with Alex from time to time, from what I gather. Apparently, according to Joe... Andrew, Alex, and Craig have been working together as a team. But Andrew and Craig have not had as much input, and are not really significant in this, and were just basically doing what Alex told them to.

This is a list of accounts that I am now about to label truthfully (well from what we can all remember anyway):

<i>suspected accounts</i>
*] (Joe)
*] (No one to do with us)
*] (Alex)
*] (No one to do with us)
*] (Alex)
*] (Joe)
*] (No one to do with us)
*] (Alex/Craig)
*] (No one to do with us)
*] (Alex/Craig)
*] (Me... I think anyway)
*] (Me, from what I remember)
*] (No one to do with us)
*] (Joe)
*] (Andrew Rice)
*] (No one to do with us)
*] (Joe)
*] (No one to do with us)
*] (No one to do with us)
*] (No one to do with us)
*] (No one to do with us)
*] (No one to do with us)
*] (Craig)
*] (Craig)
*] (Craig)
*] (Alex/Craig)
*] (Craig)
*] (Craig)
*] (Craig)
*] (God knows... I think this was me...)
*] (Me)
*] (No one to do with us)
*] (No one to do with us)

<i>confirmed accounts</i>

*] (Andrew Rice)
*] (Andrew Rice)
*] (Andrew Rice)
*] (Me)
*] (Me)
*] (Me)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Me)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Nothing to do with us
*] (Me)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Joe)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Craig)
*] (Craig)
*] (Me)
*] (Alex... it could have been me though, to be honest I have no idea)
*] (Me)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Alex)
*] (Me)
*] (Joe)
*] (Joe)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Andrew Rice)
*] (Andrew Rice)
*] (Joe)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Joe)
*] (Alex)
*] (Joe/Me)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Joe)
*] (Alex... but Im not sure)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Nothing to do with us)
*] (Me)
*] (Me)
*] (Nothing to do with us)

Yours sincerely, Ben (and Jose on the phone too) <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Assuming good faith, it looks like this was an off-wiki dispute that spiralled out of control and which the people involved are willing to end. I think this needs some analysis on how the accounts listed here as "Nothing to do with us" were tagged as sockpuppets. Incidentally, I've linked the names above —] 13:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::These users have promised me via email never to disrupt Misplaced Pages again if I do not continue contacting their school. We'll see if they follow through. If they don not, I certainly will. ] (]) 13:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:This fulfills my demands made through e-mail for ''not'' filing an ISP abuse report on condition that this ends here. ] (]) 13:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::Sorry, but this seems no more than we've already seen. "I've been stupid, I won't do it again. It wasn't my fault.". The apparent fulsome apology above doesn't make all this time-wasting and asinine abuse "not to have happened". I see no reason not to continue to make the school/ISP aware of the abuse that's taken place. Where's the guarantee that this abuser or abusers won't start again somewhere else - they state (though at this point AGF has gone so far out of the window that I wouldn't believe a single word even if true) that they've been abusing WP and Myspace - where else do they think a little sockpuppetry and breaking of terms of use might be amusing in the future? ]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 13:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::I don't know whether they're really sorry, but I at least think it's plausible that they've suddenly realized that online hijinks can have real-world consequences; I think that in this case, ] would mean keeping the bargain made by the users who were talking with them, and giving them a chance to disappear before reporting them. -]<span style="font-size: smaller;"> (] · ])</span> 13:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:::We really are genuinely sorry. Can you please unblock all those accounts which had nothing to do with us (wait, apart from 'OrangeStreetCat' which Alex, now back from his mum's hospice, just remembered was his... he's also talking to me). I dont know what else to say. We all do want to help edit, but we realise this situation is at least for the moment in any case, impossible. Thank you for listening this time though.] (]) 13:53, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
*:Interesting series of diffs.
*:
*:
*:.
*:
*:I don't know if the apology was heartfelt or not, and I no longer believe anything any of these socks say, but I will uphold my end of the deal and not contact the school any more if the disruption stops. But as I said in email, if I even suspect that the disruption has returned, I will not hesitate to do everything in my power to ensure the user(s) are punished for wasting our valuable time. ] (]) 14:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::For the sake of completion, I'd like to add these diffs, too:
::
::
::Both edits were prior to the appology (sic), though - but a different IP from the one highlighted by Jeff above ] (]) 14:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
*:I have made it clear that the condition in addition to the above post/apology is that this ends here. The steady flow of e-mails asking me not to press the submit button on the abuse report while they were typing this makes me assume good faith - somehow I'm still able to that though there isn't much desire left to do so. This was apparently an attempt to get even with Misplaced Pages that went totally out of control. ] (]) 14:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::But please... can you restore at least the constructive edits that I made to wikipedia? I spent a lot of time on them, and I don't see what the point of getting rid of them just because of the identity of the contributor should make a difference. ] (]) 15:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:* (edit conflict) At the very least ALL of the accounts associated with this mess should be blocked &mdash; the sock accounts should be indefinitely blocked. The associated editors should be restricted to a single account each &mdash; and those accounts should be blocked until the extent of this situation is sorted out. Whether or not an editor other than EconomicsGuy reports this situation should be decided after further analysis. If there is anything false or omitted in the editors' account of the edits and accounts, the main accounts should be appropriately blocked and the abuse definitely reported. &mdash; ] (]) 15:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::Please don't report abuse :( I just want to edit constructively, and I want someone to help me do that... rather than you all shouting at me... <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

From the IP posting the apology (claiming to be Ben) ({{IPvandal|89.241.192.147}}), see this post to Jeffpw's talk page calling him an ]. This was only a just over 2 hours before the apology was posted here on ANI. Adding this to the entire pattern of edits makes me inclined to report these editors. I don't think it likely that in a few hours time, the editor(s) have matured and "learned their lesson". This situation has taken place over a period of weeks, and if the IP editor here is who he claims to be, efforts were already made, unsuccessfully, to help him become a constructive contributors under his registered name. &mdash; ] (]) 16:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:I understand your point - we've been messed around for so long that it is hard to know exactly what to believe and who really is who here. It may just be easier to block the school, and not just because they produced one of the UK's ]! But, seriously, I think the arrangement thrashed out by ] and ] should be given time to work, and they had a lot of their time wasted by the actions of this vandal/these vandals. ] (]) 16:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::No no no... see youre doing it again and not listening to me! this is why I couldn't explain anything to you before! The person that left those comments on Jeff's page was Alex (who is staying with me since his mum has been moved to a hospice!!!!!) ] (]) 16:15, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:Why not block the ones they say are their's (while still responding to unblock requests if someone says they actually belong to someone else). Ask the two involved here to file an unblock request on whatever they want to be their main accounts (and probably leave blocked for a bit longer to get the message across), and unblock the ones they say aren't their's. Then block if the unblocked accounts misbehave again? Or maybe just run a checkuser over all of them (noting that this is claimed to be two people editing from one computer)? Is a "confession" like this enough to warrant a checkuser? ] (]) 16:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::There is a ongoing at the moment, but it's getting rather involved. Should be noted that ] has been community banned, not just indefinitely blocked, too - so it could be argued the IPs should be blocked - though that may have to be an entire range, and not practical] (]) 16:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:::No there werent just two people involved. And anyway, a checkuser won't work because the IP address changes everytime the computer is turned off... look, if I was a vandal would I really be telling you all this?? I have told you all the ones that I know to be ours... one thing that really annoyed me (even though no one would listen) is that someone called Christine or something was blocked just for talking to me, then all of her friends were blocked for signing a petition or something like that from what I read... and then it went on from there, so about half of all the accounts you labelled as ours had nothing whatsoever to do with us. and we cant file an unblock request of any of our old accounts because the pages on all of them have been protected. The only way for us would be to actually create new accounts. ] (]) 16:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::Ben, I shall post this just once more. You have not only been blocked, but banned. Therefore, your presence is not welcome on here under any IP address or any username from now until the end of the world! ] (]) 16:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::::Whitstable that is just unfair. You are saying that I am never allowed to edit again because my friends impersonated me?? ] (]) 16:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::::I don't understand this 'need' to block us. Alex doesn't want anything to do with wikipedia anymore... Andrew Rice (the person with that name in real life, not 'Iamandrewrice') was just a vandal, and doesnt even bother coming on anymore... Craig did actually do constructive edits from what I can see. But me and Jose, as in the beginning, do actually want to edit constructively! Basically, I was banned as a user for having sockpuppets that at the time I did not have. I tried emailing Arb Com about this, but I didnt even get a reply, which shows I doubt they even read it. There is no possible way other than through here to discuss our steps forwards... so please talk with me on here... i am not here to argue or cause trouble... <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::: Already this editor seems to be gaming us. Now 89.241.192.147 says that the note on Jeff's talk page (left at 11:08 was from Alex "who is staying with me"), but in first post of this ''Apology'' posted at 13:22, the same IP says "Also, another friend called Alex was greatly involved, but I cannot contact him right now, as he is currently visiting his mother in hospital." So Alex did it? I see no remorse nor accepting responsibility. &mdash; ] (]) 16:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
*(3 edit conflicts later)Though there have been at least 4 checkusers done that I am aware of, it may not hurt to do one more, in order to sort out who was really who, incase we did make an error on a few users. That said, most (if not all) of the blocked accounts were vandalism or nonsense accounts, so maybe it doesn't really matter. For the record, if the community in its wisdom and compassion wants to give Ben another chance, either on the Iamandrewrice account, or another so he can make a fresh start of it, I am willing to continue the adoption/mentoring of him, and monitor each and every contribution he makes. My AGF has been sorely tested by this experience, but I sincerely believe in evolution and the power of redemption. If nobody wants that to happen, I am OK with that, too. But my offer is there. ] (]) 16:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
: Jeff, I question the veracity of Ben's account. As he pointed out above, Alex doesn't want to have anything to do with Misplaced Pages, but according to Benm Alex, just hours ago posted to your talk page from the same IP Ben is posting from. &mdash; ] (]) 16:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::In reply to ERcheck... i don't understand how you don't understand that... Alex's mother is in a hospice... he is living with me therefore for the time being... at the time while I was writing this appology, alex was visiting his mother... what is so 'gaming' about that?? ] (]) 16:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::: So, you let Alex use the computer at your house to post a ] against Jeffpw. Then Alex left for the hospital. When in this time period did he decide to have nothing to do with Misplaced Pages? As this seems to be evolving today, were you unaware that Alex was using the computer to post to Jeffpw's page? Was Alex aware of the "negotiating" that was occuring with respect to not being reported. Nonetheless, responsible Misplaced Pages editors do not let their computer(s) be used by others break Misplaced Pages policy. &mdash; ] (]) 17:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::Er... its not like i said 'alex, you can go on my computer and go insult people, just like you can go hack onto my wikipedia and myspace accounts'. How am I supposed to stop HIM editing?? well anyway... he told me that he isnt interested in editing anymore, since it was only his friends (im presuming Craig and Andrew) that made him do this. he says he has no interest in it. ] (]) 17:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Ben what did I tell you several weeks ago about debating with people? Y(ou aren't helping right now and the more you do this the more you hurt the hard work Jeffpw and I did today. Remember the agreement? Now is the time for you to live up to the other part of that agreement and stop evading the ban. Jeff's offer is a fantastic offer and once again far above and beyond the call of duty - don't ruin that Ben. ] (]) 16:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::i am living up to my end of the deal... ive told you everything i know... i havnt made a new account... and i havnt edited. I am just giving you all more information as I see it is needed, as many of you seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying... im not doing anything I'm not supposed to... and you say that jeff's offer to re-adopt me is fantastic, but how am I supposed to use that if I am 'banned'? :( ] (]) 16:53, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::Read that again. He has not offered to adopt you, he has offered to adopt you '''if''' the community decide to allow you back. There doesn't appear to be any consensus for such a mood at the moment ] (]) 16:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

*O my Jesus, forgive us our sins,
save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven,
especially those who are most in need of thy mercy <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

er.... well im guessing Joe is back online gathering the comment above (the prayer... he's a catholic)... ] (]) 16:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:I would suggest you tell him to desist, then, or the there are users here who appear close to sending an abuse report regardless of the deal you arranged with EconomicsGuy ] (]) 16:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:: Ok im again on the phone to him and have told him to stop posting. He has said yes, but he is keeping an eye on the page too (literally... just one eye...)... ] (]) 17:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) There have been numerous reference to a "deal". Please outline the terms of the deal. &mdash; ] (]) 17:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:The deal is this: Ben and his friends stop posting all together, they apologize here in this space for what they did, and they stop editing Misplaced Pages all together. In return, I will stop contacting the school, and EconimicsGuy will not go forward with his ISP abuse thingie. Ben and his friends agreed to the terms. Ben hopes that the ban can be lifted, but I promised nothing regarding that, except to say if the community lifted it, I would mentor him. I have reinforced to Ben now that he simply must stop posting and let the community go forward with what they thingk is best, and he has agreed. One presumes (hopes) that we will have no more posts from him or his friends now. ] (]) 17:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

This is absurd. Folks, Tony Walton is completely right here - listen to him. These children have been wasting our time, playing games with us, lying and acting like 10 year olds, which they may be. Ban these accounts, and don't even think about mentoring or rehabilitating them until they are old enough to drive, vote, or be sued as adults. The apologies are nonsense. I don't believe their protestations that some of the socks that were identified are not them - if they are legitimate editors, we'll hear from them and there are ways to determine who they really are. This entire thread proves the point. '''Their school absolutely should be contacted''' - Jeffpw, you are a sweet, kind person, and I know your intentions are the best, but this has to to stop already. They've been jerking you and us all around, and someone has to stand up and say enough. The school should be notified, the ISP pursued, and these children should find something else to do with their lives. They are not our responsibility, and we are feeding them by allowing them to edit in any way here. Ban them and stick to it. And while we're at it, we should notify Myspace too. <strong>] </strong>|<small>]</small> 17:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:Thank you Tvoz. FQ says '' I at least think it's plausible that they've suddenly realized that online hijinks can have real-world consequences''. What consequences? So far these fools have caused drama and upset, have burnt cycles here, have used up checkuser resources, have caused upset and distress, issued suicide threats and have stated editors on here are schizophrenic, suffering from hepatitis, are "losers", you name it. This is not "high jinks", this is nasty, threatening insulting behaviour (from people representing themselves as old enough to know better) which has gone far beyond any Misplaced Pages concept of incivility. And now it's proposed that, like some four year old caught picking his mother's prize roses, "sorry" should be enough. Well sorry, it isn't. If I weren't on a slow dialup I'd take the time to look at those "it wasn't me" socks as well - they surely haven't been blocked randomly. If actions should have "real world" consequences then let consequences ensue. ]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 17:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::While I am not responsible for the actions of the last weeks, I am responsible for this thread being started, as I told Ben and his friends to come here and apologize like men, instead of acting like children. I gave them my word that if they did so and promised not to post again, I would not go forward with my complaint to the school. Granted, they are immature teen brats who have caused an enormous amount of stress for many people. But at the same time, it took a lot of courage to come here and face all of us and admit their wrongdoings. I would be extremely disappointed if their school was contacted, when had they just stopped editing, which was my main demand, all of this would have been behind them. Can you not see that this is a good first step in taking responsibility for them, and let's see if they are able to keep their word? ] (]) 18:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::::On the current checkuser, the bunch is taunting from two separate IPs today. "Well in some ways you've moved closer, but I'd like to leave you with one last clue....ill leave that for you to go figure"..."it seems like you'll just have to ask the right questions if you want the right answers" from ]. This is followed about an hour later by this &mdash; "Oh and one last pointer.....Hahaha, its really a lot more complicated than you think, so if I were you, i wouldn't just take this at face value... oh wait, is that a giveaway?" &mdash; from ]. This evasive clue game speaks for itself. Our job here is to protect the integrity of Misplaced Pages. &mdash; ] (]) 18:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::Oh my god no that wasn't me that wrote that!!!!!! that was probably andrew rice (the andrew rice in real life, not Iamandrewrice)! I know I'm not supposed to post here but you all keep talking about me so I felt like I had to explain. I have told you as much as I know. I swear on my life. In fact, I swear on my MOTHER! for god's sake, just have a little faith in me every once in a while! I am not gaming you, i am not trying to take advantage of you, I had stopped posting on this page like I was asked to, but all all of you keep doing is to badmouth me at every opportunity. There was more than one person involved here!!!!!!! ] (]) 18:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::::Those comments were posted today by two IPs, one the same as the one above, but they were posted prior to the apology. As far as I can see, ] does not think taking this further is worthwhile at this time and, as he was the user who adopted Iamandrewrice initially, had lots of time wasted and has been in off-wiki contact to try and get to the bottom of this unpleasant situation, I'm happy to go with that ] (]) 18:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
←Once again, Jeff, your good offices prevent what by this stage I count as just retribution. What's that one about "may no good deed go unpunished"? &#9786; OK, I'll go along with it, but if I see ''any'' further posting from what, let's remember, is a ] user I shall start procedures to contact the ISP to whom the IP addresses above are allocated and the school(s) concerned. I shall also start formal procedure to log a WP abuse report. Should the banned user(s) involved wish a ''quid pro quo'', since that seems to be their mindset, I propose reducing the community ban on whoever is using the Iamandrewrice account to a ban expiring in June 2009, with, should consensus be for removing the ban then, mandatory mentorship afterwards for an indeterminate period. ]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 22:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:: Speaking as someone who has had professional dealings with kids in this age group (quite unrelated to this mess), I'm actually inclined to believe them. The stuff I see above is consistent both with the sort of online and offline collaboration they adopt, and the insistence that they only be held guilty for what they've actually done and no more. It comes down to either they are gaming us, or an entirely ridiculous set of facts which they present is true. If the latter is the case and we have had a full and frank admission as they're now somewhat scared of what may happen to them in real life if they persist, then there's no problem. If the former is true, it will become evident very shortly and we can block without mercy. Either way, there seems no harm in going along with Jeffpw and EconomicsGuy - I'm absolutely sure they'll enforce any agreements the above users have made. ] 23:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::: I am sure they will. However, it's worth noting that the is starting to throw up some interesting information ] (]) 01:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

:::: The entire group of school friends should take some time off from Misplaced Pages. All of them should change their passwords (keep them secret) and protect their computers &mdash; they cannot continue to use the excuse that "it wasn't me, it was someone else who used my account." While the checkuser posts were earlier than this ANI, they were recent examples of the students playing games. I hope the Jeffpw's correct, that at least the poster of this Apology is sincerely wanting to turn around. &mdash; ] (]) 01:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::That checkuser is extremely worrying and let me just say that although I'm by no means a regular reader of these checkuser requests I don't think I've seen such massive abuse within such a short period of time since Cplot. That said, I think, based on my e-mail correspondence with him/them, that the threats of real consequences will work. If not then go ahead and file the abuse report. As Alison notes, there are three /16 ranges involved which corresponds to some 200.000 IP's that would need to be blocked. Surely we cannot repeat such blocks without taking further action. The collateral damage and the time wasted here is more than enough reason to take this further should there be just one more instance of any of this. Needless to say the ban is expanded to ''all'' persons involved in this massive example of abuse and disruption. Also, the deal mentioned was ''strictly'' on condition that this ends now. It was a real threat of direct action if him/they did not co-operate and stop this crap now. ] (]) 03:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

== Newbie edits heads up ==

] has been severely injured in a suicide bombing. I fully expect a load of edits to this article; we shall need experienced editors to watch over changes. ] (]) 13:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:OK, she's dead. '''Someone please semi-protect for an hour or so til we can work this out'''. Too many edits at once. ] (]) 13:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::It will need Semi-Protecting for more than an hour, probably a week. '''<span style="font-family: Verdana">Cheers, ]]]'''<sup><small>]</small></sup></span> 13:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::I've semi-protected the article for one week. This news... is very upsetting to me.-]<span style="font-size: smaller;"> (] · ])</span> 13:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::Good call FQ, we don't need unconstructive edits to this article at this time. ] 13:53, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::I am going to sprotect ] for the next two days, as it is linked in the assassination section at Benazir Bhutto, for the same reasons. ] (]) 13:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::: I was just coming here to say someone created that page. 13:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC) <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) {{{2|}}}</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Might want to unprotect after a day simply because it's linked from main page, and a lot of people will be watching it at that point. ] (]) 14:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
* Shocking news, really dreadful for Pakistan and the whole region. There's no obvious candidate to replace Bhutto now she's dead. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 18:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

None of the reasons given here for semi-protection are valid! You are just doing this to reserve the article for your own use and to exclude IPs simply because they are IPs - that's against policy. And stop confusing "experienced" editors with anonymous editors! I'm an editor of three years standing with significant contributions in a whole range of areas, but I choose to edit under an IP rather than an account. You are excluding me from making any contribution to this, and related, articles. Shame on the lot of you! PS: "Head Up - what on earth does that mean? ] (]) 18:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:One lives with the consequences of one's choices. ] (]) 18:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::Raymond, why don't you answer the points I'm making, instead of making infantile remarks? You know very well that pre-emtive SP is not allowed, so please unprotect this article and watch what happens. If it's vandalised then of course SP it. Stone me! there'll be enough "real editors" watching this one! ] (]) 18:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::I'm sorry that the current semiprotection is preventing our experienced IP editors from editing. After the news broke, I was one of several admins who were scrambling to keep up with the new and unregistered editors adding to the article, many of them well-meaning newcomers, but many of them making unhelpful contributions such as or printing assumptions, rumors, and points of view as the world waited for reliable information. It's not uncommon to semiprotect articles that suddenly attract lots of inexperienced editors, and I think I made the right decision; you can still participate in the discussions on the talk page as the community updates the article to reflect the information that is still being updated. -]<span style="font-size: smaller;"> (] · ])</span> 19:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::The edit you use as an example was reverted (by you) in under a minute. This suggests that many editors are watching this article and will quickly revert inappropriate edits. The stance being taken here would, if applied across the board, prevent IPs from editing ANY article about a recent, fast-moving, important event. This, so far as I know, is not Misplaced Pages policy. As I've noted, pre-emptive semi-protection is not policy, so I'm formally asking for this article to be unprotected. Again, please do not conflate inexperience with IP editing. Thanks. ] (]) 19:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:I have since unprotected the assassination article, following requests. I would note that "experienced ip's" should have been familiar with both requesting edits on the talkpage, or requesting an admin to edit on their behalf (which advice is included in the template). Since their appears to be enough eyes on this matter now I feel protection is un-necessary. ] (]) 20:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== Banking conspiracy theories ==

The following articles are biased terms to push a POV. All of the information in the below is in other articles on Misplaced Pages, such as ] and ].

*]
*]
*]

All three center around a conspiracy theory regarding the Federal Reserve, stemming from a misunderstanding on how fiat works. Ironically, the article acknowledges this in its opening paragraph:

'''Conventional economic analysis does not generally use the terminology "debt-based money." The link between the currency regime (for example, fiat currency or precious-metal backed currencies) and the banking regime (fractional reserve or full reserve banking) is not seen as fixed, however (virtually all banking systems worldwide operate on some form of fractional reserve banking). Neither is the insight that banks "create money by extending loans" considered new, and the subject is covered in most introductory economics textbooks and many popular reference works.'''

As a result, it's pretty clear the article should not exist. "Debt-based monetary system" and "debt money" are terms used by non-economists and conspiracy theorists.

The article is sourced in an amateur writer ], who according to the article on him has no particular education or experience in economics.

According to the conspiracy theory, whenever money is created by central banking, it's created as public debt which the public must pay. Central bankers, therefore, are engaged in a conspiracy to steal wealth from the public through overprinting money. For anyone who has read on howstuffworks, this is patent nonsense. The article treats the ] as a legitimate economic concept, but it is heterodox economics.

From the article:
'''There are two main kinds of debt money contraction that can cause a collapse in the value of inflated assets.''' (The Austrian Business Cycle Theory)

I tried to have ] redirected to ], have ] redirected to ], and have ] deleted, but none of that was successful.

This has been talked to death on ] and ] was followed, but the articles stay up, partially due to people guarding the page. Some are POV pushers, such as ] and ] . Others, such as ] seem to have reverted my edits in good faith, but it's not quite clear why they'd want to keep the pages up.
] (]) 15:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
*It appears, from the names, the contributions histories, and the flow of discussion on ], that {{user|Maktimothy}}, {{user|Timothymak}}, {{user|Rememberkarma}}, and {{user|Karmaisking}} are all one single person. ] (]) 20:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== Weird contributions ==

A IP has made several weird contributions, see ], all with the edit summary along the lines of "add nationality and country. This is an INTERNATIONAL encyclopedia". I think this IP is intending to disrupt the encyclopedia. Please also note ]. '''<span style="font-family: Verdana">Cheers, ]]]'''<sup><small>]</small></sup></span> 15:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
: Glad they took their time in doing this, I would have never realized Maryland was in the USA or that Nova Scotia was in Canada :-/ <font color="green">]</font><font color="red">]</font> 15:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::The user ''may'' have a point - but in any case, it's not too much to worry about at the moment and I'd suggest it should be dealt with on an article by article basis, as I've no doubt that adding the country does help clarify in some of those cases. Not everybody reading Wiki would be aware that Nova Scotia was in Canada or Maryland was in the USA, in all seriousness. ] (]) 15:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:::And, indeed, presuming so in article prose is one of the most pervasive (if not that harmful) example of ] on WP. Not only do I not object to the edits as described, but I in fact think they are a good idea! &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 15:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::::I going to second this. Americans are infamous for their lack of knowledge of Geography. But they are not the only ones. There was a Canadian television show, set in a ] community in the ], called "]". Dubbed versions of this show were purchased and broadcast in Europe. The 60th meridian of latitude is the Northern boundary of all four of Canada's Western provinces. Everyone knows this in Canada. But, for foreign viewers the European distributor needed a new name. Unbelievably they chose to rename the show '''"Alaska"'''. The European distributor named it Alaska, even though the main character was an officer in the ]. Assuming foreigners know the details of your local geography is highly parochial. I think Dave103 owes the IP contributor a serious apology. ] (]) 19:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:Nothing wrong with the edits, and they're certainly not disruptive. Some of them might be obvious to you, but not everyone knows where the Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast is. And why's everyone so paranoid now that they can't discuss edits they disagree with? Coming here shouldn't be the first option (not faulting you for asking for clarification, it's just that there are better venues). - ] 16:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::In some cases (places in Georgia, for example, where they could be either in the US state or the country to anyone without knowledge of the state and the country), being explicit would certainly help. Although the context present in the articles may inform people with little knowledge of them, I think it would be a good idea to be open to the possibility of possible systemic bias. Generally, it is a bit like postage stamps and other inventions which identify countries in some way, where the country which was the first to introduce them by convention has had the right to be able to omit its country name from its stamps. However, convention or not, it can impede people's understanding, which in an encyclopaedia, is not what we are trying to do. The problem will be that comments about it being a good idea will now result in fallacious attempts to argue that this will lead to us going to the other extreme in needing to be explicit about just about everything. ]&nbsp;] 16:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::Since the name of the pertinent country is required per the ] this discussion is moot anyway. ] (]) 16:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

My guess is that it's ] trying to make restitution :) --]''' 20:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== Socks Aplenty? ==

{{Resolved|Socks blocked and noted in the relevant AfDs &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 18:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)}}

Looks like 3 AfDs I posted yesterday - ], ] and ] - are suffering from a sockpuppet infection. ], ], ], and ] all seem to pass the duck test. --]] 16:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:The first three have been blocked as obvious socks of the last. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 17:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:Also blocked the puppeteer for 24 hours. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 17:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::That is well-and-truly infested waters. Reminds me of back in the day. ] 23:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== ] ==

Has been linking to lots of videos to do with the ], see , and . All of these are to videos on . All links have been removed per Misplaced Pages's ] policy.
::Can you please clarify what part of this policy my links are in violation of? My goal is to simply supply links to supporting reference clips from this news event. ] (]) 17:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
He on his talkpage that he created the Redlasso site; and went and create the ] article. As this is against policy, can an admin indefinitely block this user? Also see . '''<span style="font-family: Verdana">Cheers, ]]]'''<sup><small>]</small></sup></span> 17:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

See this Philadelpia Inquirer article about Redlasso and clarification. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:He has a point, Davnel. <font face="Trebuchet MS">]]</font> 17:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:Indeed. ] appears notable. However, it would probably be preferrable to link to the original video page. <font color="#cc6600">]</font><sup> <nowiki>(</nowiki><small><font color="#993300">]</font></small><nowiki>)</nowiki></sup> 17:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::Remember this is only a guideline which states that when a COI exists, one should "avoid, or exercise great caution", and as far as I can tell ] is written pretty conservatively. That being said, I agree that video links to this site as refs should probably be avoided in the Bhutto article. ] (]) 17:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::Ahhh, I just read the section about COI. As a founder of Redlasso I understand the potential issue and COI implications. This was surely not my intent, but rather to be supportive of articles I'm personally interested in contributing to on Misplaced Pages. I'll refrain from personally posting clips from my site so as not to raise any COI concerns. ] (]) 17:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

::I believe there's quite a bit of misunderstanding going on about Redlasso. Redlasso's business model is unlike any of the current players (User Uploaded/generated: YouTube, Metacafe; Media Clip Aggrigators: Voxant, Blinkx). I hope the Philadelphia Inquirer article noted above helps to clarify our differences and business model. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Requesting help with problem poster ==

] has been repeatedly adding false information to the article ]. When his factual errors were pointed out he persisted in changing the article . When he was informed of his error, and told other pages disagreed with his erroneous statements he then vandalized those pages as well , and continued to vandalize the original article . He has been warned repeatedly for his actions, and continues to add unsourced original research which amounts to patently false information which is not even moderately historically accurate. Action seems required to end his insertion of false information, and I would encourage others to peruse his other edits for factual errors as it seems likely he may be inserting unsourced and false information in his other edits, as he is doing here. ] (]) 17:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:Hi 74: that's actually not ]. Good faith edits never are. A quick glance at Dove1950's should reassure you that he is not a vandal. You are having a content dispute, and being inexpert in ] I don't know which of you is right. I have a suggestion though: if he is making factually incorrect additions, you are more likely to have a productive discussion if you approach him politely and respectfully, rather than with threats and vandalism warnings. (Which approach would you yourself prefer, if you were wrong about something, and someone else needed to point it out to you?) You might like to try getting help at ], where someone else can provide an opinion, and if that doesn't work, you might try our ] procedures. Thank you and good luck, ] ] 18:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== Personal attacks and threats by 71.99.81.194 ==

It seems to be user , he should be blocked for personal attacks on my talk page, threats and uncivil behavior:

Translation: ''Last warning you dick, fuck me! I warn you for the last time, next time I will kick your ass (reworded to have similar meaning), you fat pig. Go to run around the house, it will help you.''

Thank you. ''']<sup>]</sup>''' 18:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:I've reported to ], as I believe this is sufficiently trivial. The 71.99.x.x vandal has been a more or less constant presence on the ] article since his proposal to change the short name of the country was rejected in february (]), and I believe has racked up at least 13 blocks in that time. ] (]) 19:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== Moving a thread down ==

{{resolved}}
MrWhich has now twice moved a thread from the other day lower down in an attempt to gain more publicity for his cause . Can someoen please remind him to leave the threads in the order in which they are. Thanks, ] 18:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== Arthur Ellis sockpuppet again ==

(bumped down from above as a different sock has been blocked but not this one) ] (] | ]) 18:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Community-banned user {{user|Arthur Ellis}} now seems to be using {{user|64.26.148.20}}. Can someone please block it as we did for {{user|64.26.147.175}} three days ago? For more background, please see see ]). See also ]. Thanks, ] (] | ]) 05:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
: {{RFPP|b}} - outting/attacking comments on an editor's talk page have been deleted, too - ] <sup>]</sup> 19:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== User:Asgardian ==

] continues to remove a {{tl|Hulk}} template from the ] page (, , ) violating ]. In addition, the user has made uncivil and antagonistic remarks on ] such as "What do you say to that?" while accusing IP use of being a vandal. - ] (]) 18:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC).
*Blocked 24 hours. ] 19:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== Vulgar personal attacks from an obvious sockpuppet ==

{{resolved}}<small>blocked 24 hours from just a moment ago.] (]) 22:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)</small>
{{vandal|59.91.253.122}} has been posting personal attacks against ]. The second and more vulgar insult occurred after I blanked the first one and replied at IP's talk page. I'm requesting a block, even if it's purely symbolic: this kind of sniping is poisonous to the project. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 18:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:Yet another vulgarity directed at Nick, and still no block. Please intervene. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 19:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::IP was warned, which drew a distasteful response directed at the warner, and has since gone quiet. It is an hour and a half since the last post from this charmer, so it is best to assume that they have found something else to occupy their time. If there is a recurrence then there is enough warnings to take it to AIV. ] (]) 20:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC) nb. the second and last diffs were the same.
Like as not this one is Kuntan, you can revert and block him on sight. ] <sup> ]</sup> 21:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:He still ain't blocked, though. Been silent for a couple of hours at least. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 22:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

==User:GundamsRus and associated IPs wikistalking me==

I'll leave out the ongoing content dispute junk involving this user as I want to just deal with this specific behaviour for now-- it's obnoxiousness is significantly greater than anything else he/she does.

Please check my recent contribs-- either User:GundamsRus, or one of the IPs from the following list, has invariably shown up on most of the pages I have edited to stick his two cents in with regards to whatever I happen to be doing, always disagreeing with me in order to troll me.

Well, I will have none of it. I have had it up to here with this user and I would like something to be done so that he stops.

Here is a partial list of IPs this user has edited from (it's an Earthlink IP, so I can't get them all as it changes dynamically-- you will note most of them are from 207.69.137.x). You will no doubt see most of them on the pages I have been editing recently:

* 207.69.137.39
* 207.69.137.29
* 207.69.137.42
* 207.69.137.7
* 207.69.137.10
* 207.69.137.27
* 207.69.137.28
* 207.69.137.36 note: this IP has been blocked for one year
* 4.158.222.133
* 4.158.222.49
* 144.15.255.227
* User:GundamsRus
* 207.69.137.8
* 207.69.137.9

I also urge administrators to check when the GundamsRus account was registered, what it has done as most of it's contribs, and the first revision of it's user talk page. ] (]) 19:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== Front Page Newspaper Article about disputes at wikipedia dec27th ==

This national newspaper http://en.wikipedia.org/National_Post
has 4 million circulation. The story has the title wikipedia warriors hit delete at http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=199409 <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== AdvisorOne, Lethiere, and ] ==

{{vandal|AdvisorOne}} I've had this page watched from the first revert. I'm beginning to believe that this guy is a vandalism-only account, it's hard to assume good faith when he's been given 12 warnings by 6 people for unexplained reversions with really bizaare edit summaries without explaining himself on the talk page and edit warring ''only'' on ] and a relevant removal on a different article. He is now on his second block. It's wierd because another editor, {{user|Lethiere}} was pulling the same stunts by reverting without good reason. But he eventually stopped after a few warnings. I don't think it's the same person, but I really don't want to make a likely false checkuser request either. This account should really be blocked indefinitely based on the circumstances. These are his only contributions mysteriously after Lethiere stopped only hours after Advisor stepped in. --] <sup>]</sup> 21:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:Posting here because ST47's bot won't let me post it on AIV because he's in the middle of his second block. --] <sup>]</sup> 21:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
::This shouldn't be at AIV. I was the first to block AdvisorOne. It's unclear to me what you want to do? You don't want to file a checkuser but you do want him indef blocked? His edits are wrong and he has been warned, but I think between the two administrators now involved the case is well handled. The length of the blocks will increase as needed. -]<sub>]</sub> 23:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== AfD template for ] removed from article. Erroneously? ==

{{resolved}}

Howdy. I don't know if this is the correct place for this -- please let me know if it's not.
<br>
I started an AfD on ]. The template notice of the AfD no longer appears on the page, but as far as I can tell the AfD has not yet been resolved. ]. Perhaps someone removed the notice from the article? Or perhaps I'm missing something. Thanks for your attention. -- ] (]) 21:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

:The AFD template was removed by {{User|Emotionboy}}. I've re-added it, and warned him to not remove such templates in the future. ] (]) 22:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== Obvious sock-puppet activity ==

*{{User|DoctorIsOut}}
*{{User|TheDoctorIsIn}}

was made by a sockpuppet. Pretty obvious case.

] (]) 22:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

*Link is not to a current diff. I don't see anything obvious. ] 01:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

**They appear, to me, to most likely be the same person. However, I don't see any disruption. ''']''']''']''' 02:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

== ] / GTTofAK ==

Anyone care to comment about this at ] from the viewpoint of ]? ] (]) 22:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== ] ==

{{article|List of Hamas suicide attacks}} is being hit by several suddenly-appearing editors with no prior edit history to revert to a preferred version. Either the sockpuppets should be blocked or the article protected. <font face="Comic Sans">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 23:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
:Can you by chance show some diffs here? I went to the article but would like to see exactly what you're concerned about. ] (]) 00:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

*Rate of activity not high enough to merit protection. My first inclination was to suggest using ] or ] to address the possible sockpuppetry. All of the later ones are clearly puppets of ]. Looking at {{article|Haganah}}, there are likely more puppets there, and MaZiltHona is probably itself a puppet of some earlier account, and I can't quickly sort this out. So I guess ] and/or ] are the right venues, with the histories of both articles being highly relevant. There definitely is puppetry ocuring. ] 01:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. I reported it. It's not an article I deal with. If nobody wants to take care of it, so be it. <font face="Comic Sans">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 05:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

: The article was protected already. ] <sup>]</sup> 05:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

*Someone else has protected this article. I've now blocked the most recently active in the series of vandal accounts, and flagged the whole mess for RFCU as an IP check; I'm absolutely certain that none of the identifiable accounts is the puppetmaster, but have no clue who the puppet master is. There are likely swarms of additional, not yet used puppets, hopefully the checkusers can find some of them. See ] ] 06:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

== User:Yeanold Viskersenn ==

Not sure this is the right place or not, as this is a very strange situation. ] posted a GNU ] (Self-portrait of User:Stan Shebs, taken April 2007 above Berkeley.) on his user page using it is such a what as to imply it was a picture of himself.
] then deleted the image with the following edit summary: ''"you have got to be kidding, using my picture as if it were yours"'' User:Yeanold Viskersenn then reverted the deletion as vandalism. Is this type usage considered acceptable within Misplaced Pages? It is not a copyright issue due to the GNU license, but to imply that it is a picture of yourself on your user page, seems a bit overboard without some caption other than ''"Yours, truly".''
:dif link http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Yeanold_Viskersenn&curid=4841735&diff=180519391&oldid=180320293
Since I am usually miss understood, I will restate the above differently for clarity: With the use of GNU license, User:Yeanold Viskersenn definately has a right to use the image, the only real question is related to a misleading representation on one's user page which implies that a picture of someone else is actually a picture of yourself. ] <sup>(])</sup> 01:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Also consider the following usage by ] http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Chase_me_ladies%2C_I%27m_the_Cavalry&diff=prev&oldid=177051967 ] <sup>(])</sup> 01:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

== ] ==

This user has not edited for two months, and he suddenly comes back and starts vandalising. I suspect he wants to vanish, since he moved his userpage, but it is possible his account may have been compromised. -&nbsp;<span style="font-family:tahoma; background-color:#000000">]]</span> 01:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:Could be a number of things. Considering it was a short burst of activity that lasted only minutes, it doesn't seem like someone attempting to vanish. ''']''']''']''' 02:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

== Sock-puppetry, Vandalism, Creation of Multiple User Names ==

There is a strong possibility of sharing of accounts or sock-puppetry by ] as suggested by an Admin (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hu12&diff=prev&oldid=179128524). This user has also gone under the IPs ], ] and ]. ] also appears to be another one of the accounts. I request this user (and sockpuppets etc) be blocked to prevent any further disruptive edits (some listed further below). I also request that this user be monitored thereafter so to ensure there is no other suspicious activity thereafter.

In addition to this, the user under ] has created the page ], despite the fact the ] page already exists, and remains up to date.

The User has also persistently spammed and vandalized Misplaced Pages articles and received warnings for doing so, as well as received a warning from an Admin for edit warring. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Knataka&oldid=178845574 and http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AKnataka&diff=178887030&oldid=178845574) Further disruptive edits can be seen in the contributions of each of the IPs, some of which may include the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Carnatic_music&oldid=179326314 , http://en.wikipedia.org/search/? title=Carnatic_music&oldid=179677425 and http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Carnatic_music&oldid=179756004.
This continual vandalism, lack of npov, edit warring and the potential threat of sock-puppetry and so on has unfortunately continued.

Please block these sock-puppets. Thank you. ] (]) 01:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
== ], ] ==

The article is suffering from favoritism, with one particular website listing relevant to the topic being repeatedly removed in a vandalistic manner. ], ], ], ], ], ] are all at issue.
Note: I am not perfect and have lost my temper in a related article, which I regret and am endeavoring to avoid repeating. Regardless of that, the facts of the issue strike me as obvious, and I look forward to your comments and opinions. Thank you. -- ] (]) 02:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
: Which you continue to do with your own assumptions of bad faith in regards to any editor who disagrees with you. Anyone who disagrees with you is immediately accused of wikilawyering, censorship, point of view pushing, assuming bad faith, etc. -- ] (]) 02:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:: I have never '''assumed''' bad faith on your part, I '''see''' actions in bad faith on your part. I am perfectly capable of disagreeing with others with equanimity, and have a long edit record of mostly having done so. (I am not perfect.) It is your '''actions''' with regard to the LiveJournal articles which anger me.
:: But the issue isn't about me, despite your attempt to make it so. The issue is in fact the ''pattern'' of the editing of the articles in question, and whether, as I perceive, that editing has been used to violate Misplaced Pages policies and goals, which I have asked other, objective editors outside your group of friends to review. -- ] (]) 02:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
::: That particular issue is very clearly about you. Regardless of how you view my behaviour or anyone else's behaviour you have to remain civil, which you continually demonstrate you're incapable of in regards to this topic, here you make another spurious claim of vandalism , and more accusations of bullying, wikilawyering, vandalism, and even accusing someone of damaging the encyclopedia . And in the same breath that you violate these policies you make the claim that none of your edits have ever damaged the encyclopedia. Creating a hostile editing environment damages the encyclopedia, which you've done repeatedly in regards to this topic. -- ] (]) 02:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:::: Yes, I think that individuals or groups holding articles to a partyline POV is damaging to the encyclopedia. I stand by that statement.
:::: The issue remains abusive edits, long-term patterns of them, and violation of POV and other wikipedia maxims, not personalities, yours or mine.
:::: In earlier comments in the main LiveJournal article, yes, I let anger at what you have done goad me to intemperate comments, which I have already said I regret. That doesn't change the ''issues'' a whit; and the notion that I, all by myself, single-handedly created a hostile editing environment for your entire group of editors maintaining this POV pattern of edits is ludicrous.
:::: I leave it to more objective editors as to who currently is hostile and who is not. -- ] (]) 03:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::Then read ] and ] if you don't think personalities are important. You're required to follow them with each and every edit. The community has decided they're very important.--] (]) 05:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

== OTRS request at Help desk ==

Will an OTRS member reply to ]? ] (]) 02:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

== User ] slipped into personal attacks and incivilty ==

See . Please, enforce Misplaced Pages code of conduct in this discussion.
--] (]) 02:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:When we are here can somebody block ] because of edit warring. He is again edit warring with different editors in Serbia related articles. Because of his edit warring article ] is protected. In article ] there is edit warring because of similar reason like Ante Pavelić (if IMRO is terrorist organization) and in articles ] and ] he is edit warring if Serbia has been Germany puppet state. '''This are his only wikipedia edits'''.--] (]) 03:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

== IronAngelAlice ==

Please forgive me if I stumble a bit here, as I have never used this process before on wikipedia, in more than a year of editing here. I've tried everything possible with this particular editor, and feel that it is finally time to bring this to the next level.

This users page is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/User:IronAngelAlice

This page indicates that the user has abused accounts in the past, and has engaged in sockpuppetry. I believe that this fact is an important consideration in evaluating the current edits made by the user that violate wikipedia policy.

This user's contributions have a very specific pattern of violations of ] and Vandalism. See Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/IronAngelAlice

Specifically, the user edits articles in a way that inappropriately weight the articles to a feminist perspective. The user has specifically removed and blanked content from several articles, including the article on ].

The user was warned for Vandalism and NPOV edits. And several users other that myself have indicated a pattern of editing that is not conductive to wikipedia policy and consensus. These edits were noticed by a very respected and dedicated member of the wikipedia community here:

{{cquote|IronAngelAlice (talk · contribs) has a history of POV pushing of her own, for example see and is virtually a SPA on feminist topics. I see no reason why Alice should be able to remove those images with an entirely spurious reason (These images are not medically oriented, and are used by Pro-Lifers to show the fetus as something more than a collection of cells.) but FL should be restricted from replacing images which had sat comfortably in the article for 4 months. Thatcher 23:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)}}

The POV edits from the user are most noteworthy in the ] page. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:David_Reardon

After considerable effort was put into working toward a consensus by myself and another editor, the user returned to the page after being warned, and after repeated pleas to take any discussion to the talk page, and removed cited, verifiable material.

This pattern is consistant with behavior that occurs in other articles related to issues of interest to feminists. Specifically, abortion and related articles.


'']'' is a widely acclaimed comedy film from 1983, which is also widely acknowledged to have problematic elements by modern standards, including a scene in which the villain of the piece, stuck in a gorilla costume, is locked in a cage with a real gorilla, which is implied to sexually penetrate him without his consent.
I ask for appropriate intervention to be made as I have exausted attempts at my level.


The article states that ] demurred being cast in the role upon finding that out. for this claim is a ] on ], which contains the sentence
My thanks. ] (]) 02:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
: ''Reportedly, Liddy was on board until he got to the part where Beeks .''
: Just a diff shedding light on what this editor's doing, , but other than that (from what I can see), I see some relatively constructive editing. Maybe I'm missing something. ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 03:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Reportedly ''by whom'' is not mentioned, let alone is there a direct quotation from Liddy. Plus as can be seen the words "becomes a gorilla's mate" are linked to a very poor quality, hand-held video of the scene in question playing on a television. This alone should be enough to raise serious questions about the use of this "source" in a featured article.
:: I don't believe revert wars and systematically purging in-line citations to peer-reviewed studies are constructive. The most glaring example of the type of edits that I am talking about are in the ] Article. While myself and another editor are currently working on sorting out a consensus on a particular direction that the article should go, the user went and reverted and blanked text that all present agreed upon. (In-line citations to peer-reviewed studies.) I can see no constructive purpose for doing so as per wikipedia policy. This was done after repeated requests not to do so. Additionally, the editor removed verified cited material from the article without cause. I believe this pattern, coupled with the sockpuppetry and abusive actions in the past shows that the editor is not willing to work with other editors on the board when it comes to articles that impact feminism in some way. Your example involves a relatively uncontroversial topic, a University. I think that the problems only surface when feminism comes into play. ] (]) 03:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57


The content dispute began when I changed it like this () with the comment ''Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs'':
Ghostmonkey just showed up, and without warning decided to place ], which seems to me to be a bit of bullying. I mostly contribute to articles that deal with science and reproduction because my interest lies mostly in controversial topics. This has made me a target for people who believe in fringe science. I am always engaged in the talk pages, I make good faith efforts, and I am civil. Please review the talk pages on the articles the science and reproduction articles to which I contribute, as well the other articles that have interested me:
{{text diff|Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla.|Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks is raped by a gorilla.}}
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:HPV_vaccine
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Post-abortion_syndrome
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:David_Reardon
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Fetus
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Abortion-breast_cancer_hypothesis
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Abortion
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:University_of_Nevada%2C_Las_Vegas#Notable_faculty
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Harry_Reid
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Misandry
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Domestic_violence
* http://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_historians_by_area_of_study#History_of_France
--] (]) 03:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
: Oh yeah, BTW, I notified IronAngelAlice :) Sorry, should have done that before. Ghostmonkey57, you need to ] here. While the editor is certainly reverting, I don't think reverting different pages constitutes ]. If, as IAA claims, this is all part of a dispute related to ], it should go to ]. ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 03:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


This was reverted () by {{u|Darkwarriorblake}} with the comment ''not what the source says''.
::Yes, please do review these pages. Specifically:
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Misandry
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Fetus
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:David_Reardon


After thinking about it a moment I came to the conclusion described above about the quality of the source, and decided that it was better out than in, which is what I should have done in the first place.()
As these are the ones in which I have dealings with the user. If you note on the Misandry page, the user makes the demonstrably false contention that the term is only used by conservatives to "counter feminist discussion". I believe this is demonstrative of the particular type of editing that I am talking about. While it is true that each of us has bias, when we systematically purge articles of cited and verifiable sources from the other perspective we violate wikipedia policy. ] (]) 03:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57


{{text diff|...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks. Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla. Paul Gleason took the role;...|...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks with Paul Gleason eventually taking the role;...}}
::::(edit conflicts) I need to give a disclaimer here becuase I am active on ] and some other feminism and gender studies related articles, so this view is not totally "outside" but it seems to me Ghostmonkey has a POV too. Ghostmonkey and IronAgeAlice have a history going back to the Ferrylodge arbcom.
::::I had dealings with IronAgeAlice when she was ] and found her difficult sometimes but not disruptive (see ]). Recently I've seen a good number of constructive edits from her (even if she is sometimes a little hasty with an undo here and there). I think she has some POV issues but I see no attempt at ], no ], or ] or request for mediation from Ghostmonkey.
::::BTW after Ghostmonkey placed those warnings on IronAge Alice's page MastCell explained to him that they were issued incorrectly.


My accompanying comment was ''(a) That was the source's voice, not Liddy's. It's called a euphemism. Demonstrable by how it links to a clip of the scene in which a man is raped by a gorilla. (b) Source says "reportedly" for this claim, without evidence. Poor quality source. Removing claim''
:::::As I said, forgive me if I stumble a bit. I have never used this process at wikipedia before, and I will gladly use those other processes if they are more appropriate. Please point me in the right direction. ] (]) 04:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57


That was reverted by Darkwarriorblake () with the comment ''Nothing wrong with Indiewire as a source, if there is I'd raise it at ]. Until then, there's a talk page for you to use per ]. Your comments sound agenda driven and therefore not Neutral.''
:::::Actually that is incorrect. Michael Kimmel self identifies as a pro-feminist. I cited his work in the talk page. My point was that you cannot unilaterally remove peer-reviewed research from one perspective, and keep research from another, especially when that perspective comes from a self-identified pro-feminist researcher. I have edited other controversial articles, including ] and ] as you can see from my edits, I try to work for BALANCE and NPOV. I do not believe in removing research and citations from a perspective with which I might disagree, instead, I add cited and verifiable references to research and facts from the other perspective, SO BOTH SIDES are represented. The edits that I am referring to from the user do not work toward that end. Instead, the user systematically purges cites and material which conflicts with a feminist perspective. I have no problems with including research and cites from such a perspective, it's the removal of the opposing verified and cited material that creates the problem. ] (]) 03:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57


This is where the reason for me to raise this at this board begins, because that's solidly an example of ]. It came on top of a revert which reintroduced a claim cited to a rumor in a blog post into a featured article, but that's really not my concern, because if the champions of the featured article process have decided that it's somehow acceptable for our "best" content then I'm just going to move on to something else rather than argue.
::::Also if we note the Misandry page you'll see an extraordinary claim from Ghostmonkey calling Jennifer Pozner (ex of ]) as "far left" - far left means extreme communist, Pozner is not that. There are ] issues here--] <sup>]</sup> 03:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


There's one final back and forth which was enough to motivate me to post here. First, I reverted that revert (, my only time using the actual "Undo" button today), with this comment: ''a good source doesn't say "reportedly" (ie, spread a rumor), it specifies the origin of a fact. My only "agenda" is with a crap listicle being used as a reference, regardless of who published it. Take it to talk if you want to argue for the continued inclusion of a trash ref in a featured article, or source the claim properly yourself''.
:::::The other editors agreed with the removal. If you looked at the information that was removed, you will find that it didn't even support the contention that was deleted. ] (]) 03:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57


This was reverted - again - by Darkwarriorblake () with the comment '' How are you an admin? "rape played for laughs" is an agenda, this went through FA as is so ] and ] apply. You must go to the talk page, not I. I don't know if you're going through a bad time or something but this isn't how an admin should be acting or communicating with others, up to and including ]''
Ghostmonkey, just a quick point of clarification: I don't claim that "misandry" is only use to "counter feminist discussion." In fact, I was the one who added the "academic" and "Greek" sub sections for the article. My claim is that Christina Hoff Sommers, Wendy McElroy, Warren Farrell, Paul Nathanson and Katherine Young, etc are using "misandry" to counter feminism, and this is borne out in the quotations from these folks, and the references. This would all be much better discussed on the actual talk page of the article.--] (]) 03:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


At this point it's gone firmly into the realm of knee-jerk reversions, because if Darkwarriorblake took the time to read the article which they've (is this ]? Kind of feels that way), they would get down to the ] section. Which says "some critics have praised the film while highlighting elements that they believe aged poorly, including racial language, the use of blackface, and the implied rape of Beeks by a gorilla", cited to articles in four major publications. Or, you know, even .
::Could you interpret this for me?<i>It's clear through the references that "misandry" is used as a way to counter feminist discussion in both North American and Europe.</i>] (]) 03:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57


So anyhow regardless of whether the Indiewire source is deemed suitable or not, I'm just wondering what the feeling here is about someone making goofy assertions on the record that another editor has "an agenda" (what agenda could it be?) and may not be emotionally stable, which really doesn't feel like ] at all. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 20:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Let's engage the talk page, shall we?--] (]) 04:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:Hrrm, this seems a bit excessive.
:*I've added a second source for the claim. Really this should've been the first option rather than removing the content.
:*The first summary was, as stated, "Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs". "Rape played for laughs" is a loaded comment and not something said in the article or the source text, so it's a personal opinion, it's not neutral, it's agenda-driven.
:*When this was reverted, the editor just removed the content entirely claiming IndieWire was unreliable. There is, as far as I'm aware, nothing wrong with Indiewire. I've since found a second source, the Telegraph, which is reliable per ].
:*The editor ignored WP: BRD when raised, and as an admin they should adhere to policy.
:*The editor states that they are an admin on their page. Assuming this is true, the aggressiveness of their edits, hyper focus on the single area, and use of words like "crap listicle" seemed out of line with what I, personally, would expect from an admin on Misplaced Pages, certainly someone who has been so for nearly two decades. Perhaps the edit summary wasn't the place to have that discussion but, as stated, they weren't adhering to WP: BRD to start a discussion, and in the interim the article needed putting back to the status quo.
:*I find accusations of OWNERSHIP often tend to come when people don't get their way. Which is fine. I have plenty of reversions on the page for people adding unsourced content and there are plenty of changes as well. I find someone removing sourced content and me putting the sourced content back to not ''really'' be something you can fling ownership at.
:*Within the context of the film, Beeks does become the romantic partner of the gorilla, it seemed more appropriate and encylcopedic text than just saying 'rape', and neither source I've added says that either.
:*Anyways, my edit history shows I'm a massive contributor and helper and it's nearly Xmas, and I don't feel like engaging with this any further, good luck Hex. ] (]) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::Of course you don't, having ignored the actual matter of your conduct that I'm raising here. Your comments about the content of the article are irrelevant. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 20:43, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*Hex's position is not wholly supported, although in the entire issue, their toolset is irrelevant. There was no incivility on either part, and an all-out edit war seems to have been averted.{{pb}}Fundamentally the change Hex wanted to make was pure OR; rape may have been intimated—or, as Hex themself admits, implied—but its never overtly stated and is a wholly loaded term. This is the interpretation of an editor, not of secondary sources. If there is a pron=blem with Indywire as a source—currently used in —take it to WP:RSN. If it's disputed that it's a high quality source per WP:FA?, then take it to WT:FAC. Accusations of OWNership are as unhelpful—and as much an aspersion—as accusations of agenda-led editing. In fact, for OWNership, Hex should read the relevant policy: here, it is WP:FAOWN, which not only allows for careful stewardship of featured material, but requires significant changes to the consensus version to be discussed on talk; I don't suppose there's any suggestion that introducing rape—particularly "played for laughs"—wouldn't be a significant addition.{{pb}}Really though, this is an overblown content dispute which should have started with ''one revert'' each, and ended on the talk page. --]'']''] 21:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*:"Never overtly stated... 'played for laughs' be a significant addition" - with John Landis, the director. {{talk quote|One of the executives was deeply appalled by a man being sexually molested by a gorilla. And I said you know, it's a joke and it goes by very quickly. But the first preview was very successful and it all went away. ''''}}
*:Feel free to amend the article on that basis. I'm certainly not interested in spending any more time on it. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 22:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


===Followup===
Dialogue ''would'' seem to be a sensible suggestion, Ghostmonkey? Unless you are asserting that IronAngelAlice is unwilling to discuss these matters with you? ]] 07:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I just want to say that, now that we've had an ANI thread on the subjeect of Gordon Liddy's feelings about portraying the romantic partner of a gorilla, I can die happy.


While we're on the subject, recites that {{tq|Prior to his departure from the FBI in 1962, Liddy sought admission to various bars.}} I'm curious to know whether this is meant to imply that Liddy had a , and whether this could have had any bearing on the whole gorilla romantic partner situation. ]]
== Shiftedviewpoint ==
{{abot}}


== User Stationmanagerskidrow removing information on ] page ==
{{Vandal|Shiftedviewpoint}} is a single purpose account, apparently used only to create ] (and redirects and images related to it). According to , policy is to handle this sort of thing very aggressively. --] (]) 03:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


== PeeWee IP Block Lifted, He's Back ==


] is repeatedly removing information about a recent incident involving a Jewish DJ at ]. They say that it is incorrect information, even though it is sourced. The name also states clearly that this is a company account. Lastly, they have continued this behavior even after being warned on their talk page. ] (]) 03:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
...PeeWee's IP block got lifted, and he's back. ]]]<font color="red">]</font> 03:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


:User is now editing using ] ] (]) 03:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
== Obvious Kirbytime sock (harrassment, edit warring), Checkuser not conclusive ==


::This is a content dispute and the article is being actively edited by many different editors. However, no discussion about the disagreements has occurred on the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:''Please note Atari400 has commented within my original post and split it into various sections.'' --] <sup>(]•])</sup> 04:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
{{userblock|Atari400}} is an obvious sock of {{user|Kirbytime}}, but the came back inconclusive.
*Wrong. There was no evidence. You accusation and request for checkuser was deemed "fishing". <b><i>]</i></b> 04:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Besides edit warring and editing similarities, here's some stuff I mentioned in the Checkuser report:
* Sarcastic admittal of sock puppeting : "You got me. I am actually a sockpuppet of editor Sefringle."
**You accuse me of sockpuppetry, and engage in stalking and harassment. I was accused of being a "closet Muslim" by you, during the the deletion discussion for the category:anti-Islam sentiments. The real question is, do you have multiple accounts? <b><i>]</i></b> 04:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
***'''You've now admitted you're Kirbytime''' by saying above that you remember me accusing you of being a 'closet Muslim'. If I did that, that must have been in your old Kirbytime days because I've definitely not made these accusations to you with your current username. --] <sup>(]•])</sup> 04:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
* was a long copyright warning to another user.
* Admin Daniel also suspects this is Kirbytime
**With no more evidence than you. Is Daniel a sockpuppet? <b><i>]</i></b> 04:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
* After the CU came back, he's harrassing me, to help file a complaint against me.
**You are harassing me. One need only check my talk page to see. I have every right to refute your accusations against when they are submitted. <b><i>]</i></b> 04:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
All the editing similarities are mentioned in the check user including edit warring with Yahel Guhan (Sefringle), ], ] etc. and reverting without discussion. Also see recent unprovoked veiled I suggest an indef sock block based on the editing similarities, attacks and edit warring. thanks, --] <sup>(]•])</sup> 03:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:That means nothing. You editing pattern reflects that of Sefringle and Arrow740, as well. Are you Sefringle? <b><i>]</i></b> 04:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
* Something must be done about your harassment, baseless accusations, and stalking. I can only hope an Admin will take some form or action to stop such behavior on your part. <b><i>]</i></b> 04:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
**You've now admitted you're Kirbytime by saying above that you remember me accusing you of being a 'closet Muslim'. If I did that, that must have been in your old Kirbytime days because I've definitely not made these accusations to you with your current username. --] <sup>(]•])</sup> 04:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
***That is a lie. You made the accusation here less than two months ago. You are so blinded by your hatred of all things Arab/Muslim, that when a person holds a different view from your own, they <b>MUST</b> be a Muslim! What you are doing is bigoted harassment. This must stop. What you are doing is a hateful attack against me, and truly ruins Misplaced Pages for everyone, editor and reader alike. <b><i>]</i></b> 04:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
****I have hardly had any interaction with username Atari400, except for this recent sock puppet investigation. The only comment I made on the link you gave was ''"Delete: Recreated category which was deleted before."''. --] <sup>(]•])</sup> 04:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


That article probably should be speedied as an A7 for not containing any assertions of notability; which obscures that Stationmanagerskidrow appears to have been edit warring on it with an undisclosed COI, and presumably was ]ing as , and if so violated 3RR as well. It's probably best for me not to take administrative action here tonight as I won't be around later/tomorrow to deal with any followups, but something should be done here beyond just saying "take it to the talk page." ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 06:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Here's what I see:
:The page was longer, but sourced (all but?) soley to the station's site and it's been trimmed down to what it is now. Given the repeated edit-warring by IPs I've semi-protected the page for two days for now. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
# Matt57 came up with reasonable evidence to get a Checkuser. The check was performed, and the result was "possible-inconclusive".
::] and ] message added . I'm just about to make myself thoroughly ] by seeing what I can do about the ] article. ] (]) 🦘 09:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
# Behavioral evidence points to sockpuppetry.
# In any case, the user has been a disruptive POV pusher who is willing to misrepresent sources
# Within this thread Atari400 is being rude and making unfounded accusations against Matt57.
I am thinking about this and may add to the list before deciding what to do. ] <sup>]</sup> 04:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


== Insults ==
:Uh, no. I am the one being "accused" with no evidence, and I reserve the right to answer my accuser. An admin named Alsion stated that Matt57 was fishing requesting checkuser. So, he comes here, and continues the attack against me. I find that very rude. <b><i>]</i></b> 04:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


:I have been no worse than Matt57, and there is no evidence of sockpuppetry. There were two checkuser investigations. Neither came up with evidence. One of the admins holds a known bias, and even he could find not evidence. If you allow this person to ban me on account of an unsubstantiated accusation, simply because we severely disagree on a topic, you will be doing a horrible disservice to Wikipeida, and as well as something very unfair to me. <b><i>]</i></b> 04:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
::You do know that Checkuser is not the magic pixie dust that proves innocence, right? (no comment on validity of sock allegations) —''']''' 04:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:::Without a evidence, there can be no conclusion. I do not have to prove my evidence. Rather, others have to prove my guilt. I am not "Kirbytime", and am amazed at how things actually are run here on Misplaced Pages. Matt57 made a baseless accusation, and was accused of "fishing". Now, he comes to AN/I, and to my amazment, needs no evidence to make accusations. <b><i>]</i></b> 04:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
::::Not true. Arrow740 made the initial report without any diffs and his report was refused on the basis of 'fishing'. I fixed the report providing the diffs and then checkuser was accepted and performed. --] <sup>(]•])</sup> 04:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::And how do we know you are not Arrow740? <b><i>]</i></b> 04:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


I'd like to report an incident related to ]. A person under IP already accused me of being "obsessed". Now someone (possibly the same person) . Please also see . I guess we can always agree to disagree with other people, but this is going a bit too far. Thank you. ] (]) 09:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Matt57 is correct. Atari400, whether or not you are the same person is almost immaterial because you are in fact being disruptive and display an editing style that would justify a block. Are you willing to change your ways? ] <sup>]</sup> 05:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:Hello, Psychloppos. What action are you seeking to happen here? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:42, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::I have no idea which actions are warranted here. Maybe an admin could leave a message to this IP and this registered user and remind them that they should ] ? It would also be nice to remind them about ] and ]. Saying that I am "fuelled by an unhealthy obsession" or questioning my sanity do not seem to respect those guidelines. ] (]) 09:52, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
==Nlkyair012 and LLM chatbots ==
*{{Noping|Nlkyair012}}
This editor has been constantly using AI chatbots to respond and write messages. They are a single purpose account for glorifying the ] caste using unreliable ] era sources, I and several other experienced editors have taken time and effort to respond to their endless queries and ] generated using ChatGPT. They have posted AI generated walls of text on multiple noticeboards such as ] and ] and including here , accusing me of vandalism.


Despite my repeated requests and even a final warning to them (including a request by {{ping|ActivelyDisinterested}}) they are still continuing to do it. Their messages are repeating the same argument again and again and are frankly just ] that bring up fictitious guidelines or misrepresent the existing ones. Several editors have told them that Raj era sources are not reliable yet they continue to ask for more evidence on why that is the case based on AI generated claims of supposed academic value or neutrality. This is getting very disruptive and taking up valuable contributor time to respond to their endless AI responses which take a few seconds to generate. I have alerted them about ] and ], I would appreciate it if someone could enforce a restriction on this user from at minimum caste area. - ] (]) 13:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Certainly the deletion of others' talk page messages with zero edit summary does not bode well . When asked, ''Atari400'' said the talk message in question was "pointless vandalism" , which is pretty shockingly disruptive behavior for someone who admits that they are neither a new editor nor that this is their first Misplaced Pages account. --] (]) 06:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


:Hello @Ratnahastin,
:::::::Also we see him reverting four other editors, while claiming there's no consensus for a page move to a more neutral title with each revert. Certainly intentional disruption at that point. ] (]) 07:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:To start with I should admit that I am sorry for all the inconvenience that I may have caused as a result of my actions. It was never my intention to take people’s time or skew the conversation in a certain way. I appreciate the core idea to contribute the thoughts to the Wiki and share it borne in mind the overall rules and policies of this program.
:I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site. Even when I was using AI for the grammar check or, for instance, to elaborate on some point in the text, I saw to my mismanagement that over the process we probably confused the readers and repeated the same information and thoughts, which I would never wish to happen again. From now on I will ensure that in the future the input which I provide to wikipedia fits the Misplaced Pages standard and is more personal. I will also not write walls of text and will not make assertations that do not have substantiated evidence in sources.
:As for subjects that concern the Raj and the sources from this period and the discussions we have had it seems that I have gone too far in demanding clarification for the same thing. That being the case, with the understanding that the consensus will be acknowledged, I shall not be inclined to reopen this discussion unless new substantiated evidence is produced. I don’t want to prolong the conversation or bring any more stress.
:I will strive to learn from my experience to be more productive in my interactions going forward. If there are other limitations or additional rules to which I have to stick to, I will receive them with pleasure.
:In the same respect, let me specially apologize for the inconvenience and thank all of you for bearing with us. That was why I wanted to remind all of us that we can and should keep collectively improving Misplaced Pages as a resource. <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::This comment also has a typical LLM feel and contains meaningless statements such as "I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site" and differs substantially from , although GPTzero said this is human input. - ] (]) 13:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::It seems human in that it contains some composition and grammar errors that I don’t think an LLM would produce. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 13:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Thanks for the reply sir, I can't explain how frustrated I'm feeling from this morning which this user made me experience <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The time when I messaged Vikram banafar I was casual not formal and second of all your saying doesn't prove anything "and differs substantially from your usual (non-AI) writing style" that's a straight up false accusation and utter nonsensical point and 3rd point being that GPTzero stated that this is a human input then that's an human input end of the question. <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::No it's really not the end of the story if GPTZero says "likely human". In fact I'd actively discourage people depending on tools like GPTZero in favour of their human senses ] than yet another computer program. And, frankly, what you're hearing from people here is we'd rather your casual, human, flaws-and-all style of writing over ChatGPT output "formal" report templates. They are doing the opposite of what you're looking for and have become disruptive. ] (]) 14:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Man you still wanna do this? @] also says this doesn't seems AI generated to him and he used his actual "Human senses" to lean that way <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Admitting that you have used AI for writing your comments and then saying that you have not used AI is not going to help your case. - ] (]) 14:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::You know what I think this is getting to the ] point. Having to tell somebody to have the basic respect of other editors to not subject them to text-walls of chatGPT garbage over and over again is a disruptive distraction from what we should all be doing. ] (]) 14:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::This ain't getting anywhere <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I really don't understand the problem. Cuz I literally also said many where that yes I used AI but for expanding and grammar correction <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::If this combative approach is your "casual" style, perhaps your use of AI and its over the top politeness was an attempt to mask it. In any case, I think you are ] but for caste glorification given your obsession with a certain sub-caste. - ] (]) 14:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::im not obsessed with a certain subcaste but am sure is obsessed with British Raj sources. <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I don't think that's better. ] (]) 15:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::If we just temporarily put aside the AI-generated comments, can Nlkyair012 accept the view of experienced editors on Raj era sources and not push any viewpoint on a particulary caste? Because, to be honest, editors who have done this in the past usually end up indefinitely blocked. There is a low tolderance here for "caste warriors". <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


== Potential vandal trying to start edit war on the page for Frisch's. ==
::::::::I agree that Atari400's editing styles should be discussed to see if the user is being disruptive or not. However, such discussion is not meaningful when on one hand baseless allegations (of sockpuppetry) are being made. In such a scenario its hard to tell legitimate criticism from illegitimate.] (]) 07:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
{{atop|1=Page protected, and now this admin is flashing back to his youth going to Frisch's Big Boy in ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
This user keeps using IP addresses in order to revert creditable information about who makes their tartar sauce. Please look into this user. IP Addresses used were 67.80.16.30, 66.117.211.82, and 216.24.107.180. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


:Courtesy link ]. ] (]) 17:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
== ] ==
:<del>This sounds a '''lot''' like the same edit warrer I dealt with on ], down to the false accusations of vandalism, removal of sourced information, and apparent use of proxies (all the IPs geolocate to different places). I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same person.</del> I've asked RFPP to intervene. ] &#124; ] 21:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::NVM, checked MaxMind for geolocation and they all are in the same general area. ] &#124; ] 21:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== ] inaccurate edit summaries ==
Can someone figure out what's going on here? It looks like an egregious ] violation or some dispute between {{User|Pablothegreat85}} and {{user|Kmweber}}. Thanks. ] (]) 03:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
: I notified Kmweber about this. This is clearly disruptive editing/harassment. A block is probably in order. ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 04:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
::Just to clarify for those reading it would appear the RfA was created by Pablo and looked like it was kmweber nominating himself. It was deleted and east.718 blocked Pablo as a compromised account. <small><span style="border:1px solid #FF3333;padding:1px;">] ]</span></small> 06:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


== Tag Team POV pushing ==


All but 2 of user's edit summaries are "Fixed Typo" when they are in fact partially updating statistical information on the page. Have left multiple messages/warnings on TP, with no response. ] (]) 16:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
In the article ] several users have been conspiring together, re-posting a paragraph that is purely POV. The paragraph is full of inaccurate statements and is a one-sided criticism of a respected academic. It has no sources to back up the accusations because they are incorrect. That sort of NPOV does not belong in an encyclopedia. The main tag-team editors are ], ] and ]. Two of these editors have a history of violations and have been blocked for similar behavior. Recently there was an arbitration case opened due to this type of behavior. Any help solving this conflict will be appreciated. ] (]) 04:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:Seems like an edit war. I think blocking them as a vandal-only account or meats of each other would be recommended. ]]]<font color="red">]</font> 04:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
::I agree, this situation can only be described as an edit war, and those accounts are vandal-only. It is also reasonable to assume that those accounts may be sock/meat puppets as they only post in the same articles and make the same edits. ] (]) 06:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


== Lil Dicky Semi-Protection ==
== ] ==
{{atop|1=] is thataway →. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
] was semi-protected back in 2019. Now that five years have passed, could the semi-protection be lifted? ] (]) 16:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


:Ask at ] ] ] 16:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
This editor has left a "help" message on ]. Could an admin follow up on it please? It appears he is reporting a personal attack. Thanks. ] (]) 06:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== Possible misuse of Administrative Powers or Arbcom? == == Request for Review of Neutrality and Repeated Actions ==
{{Atop|This complaint has no merit and does not require administrative intervention.--] (]) 18:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
{{archive top}}
In light of the (also found ), I have received a couple interesting cases proposals. For example: ] has been blocked since 29 October 2007. ], the blocking administrator, explains within the "block log" that "all appeals go directly to the Arbcom." Furthermore, the reason given for the block is "engaging in pedophilia advocacy." A quick investigation within this mater leads me to believe that:


Dear admin,
*No "Request for arbitration" was officially filed with the committee.
I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to express my concern regarding Psycholoppos, who has repeatedly applied the neutrality dispute tag to content related to Randa Kassis. Despite previous clarifications, these actions suggest a potential bias, which could undermine the objectivity and integrity of the platform.
*Furthermore, there does not appear to be any Request for Comment's (RfC's) that can be found on user ''A.Z.''. (See ]
*Many of the comments (now archived) on the talk page for ] appear to support his productive contributions and question the “indefinite” block.
*This is or was a content dispute. The content appears to be well sourced. Hence, the discussions regarding A.Z.'s lack of ] are quite weak. (See ] which inherently states that every article has POVs and that it is the responsibility of editors to ensure, if notable enough, that there point of view be properly represented.
I'm asking for further directions on this matter. This is because there appears to be a few contradictions in policy and what we are being asked to do. On one hand we are supposed to bring this matter up with Arbcom, yet on the other hand this doesn’t appear to be a logical “arms lenght” location given the circumstances that “they have allegedly block A.Z. without any “open debate”.
Also, going directly to ArbCom contradicts current policies. For example, according to ], "For requests regarding the conduct of another editor, it is expected that the requests for comment (RFC) process will be followed." Nevertheless, in this case, this statement is quickly contradicted with ] which states: User RfC’s are “for discussing specific users who have violated Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines." Further investigation within the matter of A.Z. doesn't show any real violations of policies and guidelines. So this leaves me wondering... as I'm sure many others are wondering <START FLAME> "What the HELL is going on! <END FLAME>, what is happening with this matter and why is this user blocked if he seemingly didn’t violate any policies and guidelines?
Note: I'm only seeing what is presently on Misplaced Pages... perhaps there are some hidden items which have occurred "behind closed doors", (As what is alluded with the email conversations). Nevertheless, I am gravely disappointed towards the Arbcom committee, who has blocked this user without seemingly putting the information forward for us. (It has been since 1 November 2007 since they have received the emails)
Anyways, in short I think this case could use an independent review asking the Arbcom to make a statementPresently, I do not see any violations from this user and I am asking that the community voice their opinion... (As it used to be done with the . What directions do you think we, Misplaced Pages, should go with this? --] (]) 07:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
:The direction of common sense. Why not just ask Dmcdevit about it before bringing this here? ]]] 07:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


I kindly request that you review this matter and take appropriate steps to ensure that all users adhere to neutrality standards. If possible, I would also appreciate guidance on how to address such situations constructively in the future.
: Only administrators are able to view deleted contributions. Looking at them, I see good reason for this user to remain blocked. ] <sup>]</sup> 07:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


Thank you for your attention to this issue. Please feel free to reach out if further clarification is needed.
:This is the SOP for dealing with users who have been found to be editing in a manner that advocates pedophilia. They are blocked and they are asked to forward any appeals directly to the committee. There is no misuse of anything here.—] (]) 07:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Hazar ] (]) 17:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:@], whether the NPOV tag is needed or not should first be discussed on the article's talk page. Also, see the large notice at the top of this page: you are required to notify the editor you are reporting. ]&nbsp;] 17:53, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::The editor is also called Psychloppos, not Psycholoppos. I have notified them for the OP. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 17:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:I wouldn't give a chatbot-written thread the time of day. HS, ]. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 18:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{Abot}}


== Disruptive behavior from IP ==
::CyclePat, please don't try to start up ] again. You can't see this users deleted contribs. Users who make edits pushing the POV that adult-child sex can be loving and healthy get banned, with instructions to contact Arbcom privately. It's the one issue that could turn the great mass of mothers and grandmothers, who barely know we exist, against us in a big messy public way. So such cases are handled by private email directly with Arbcom, and that's just how it is. If you prefer some other method of handling such a sensitive and potentially damaging issue, start your own encyclopedia. ] 07:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
For the past month, {{ip|24.206.65.142}} has been attempting to add misleading information to ], specifically trying to use the unofficial "777-200LRF" designation beyond first mention in the relevant section and passing it off as official (, , , , , , , , , , ). Their behavior died down for a few weeks, but restarted several days ago (, ), including that {{u|Fnlayson}} is "okay with it". They have been asked numerous times on ] to either stop or provide evidence of official use of the designation, but they have failed to do so and have continued their disruption. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 19:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


I forgot to mention that this user has used at least two other IPs; {{ip|24.206.75.140}} and {{ip|24.206.65.150}}. 24.206.65.142 is the most recent to cause disruption. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 20:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:Hi Grandmasterka, et all. If I didn't say it. I appologize if this isn't the right location to discuss this issue. Again, I was hoping to get some community input on the subject. I will obviously need to bring this to the attention of the blocking Admin Dmcdevit if I want to get more information. Thank you! p.s.: "SOP sounds like we're ]! p.p.s: Thank you Thatcher, I have read your response. I think we agree to disagree. Right? I believe Wiki has a good article on this subject and it's called ]... which... seems to contradict policy ]. (Again, see above comment regarding content dispute and how the information appears to be well sourced) --] (]) 07:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


:"777-200LRF" is not misleading, some cargo airlines do use that designation. Today I reverted to a previous version that ] was okay with . I feel that ] is going overboard with charges of misinformation and disruptive editing. ] (]) 19:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}
::It is misleading to remove any mentions of it being unofficial. Boeing has never made a "777-200LRF", no aftermarket conversion has ever been offered under that name, nor has the FAA or any other regulatory agency ever certified such an aircraft. To pass such a designation off as official is by definition misleading and misinformation. Likewise, to continuously do so after you have been told to stop by multiple people and falsely claiming that others support your arguments is by definition disruptive. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 20:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::Of note is the fact that this is not the first time the IP has claimed to have Fnlayson's support. ] not to assume support without a specific statement, yet it seems they've also ignored that. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 20:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Its not misinformation as here are the sources which use "777-200LRF", including GE Capital Aviation (the engine supplier for most Boeing 777) and Leeham News (to avoid confusion with the upcoming 777-8F). ] (]) 21:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I have asked you for sources from either Boeing or the FAA, yet you still either refuse to do so or (more likely) cannot because they don't exist. Only Boeing and the FAA can designate factory-built Boeing aircraft. Airlines and misinformed news websites have no authority to do so, and any alternative names they use are purely unofficial and should not have anything more than a single brief mention in the appropriate article section. Your ] to get that after numerous people have told you is disruptive. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 22:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:Relevant range is {{rangevandal|24.206.64.0/20}}, in case somebody needs it. ] &#124; ] 21:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*Semiprotected ] for two days. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:24, 25 December 2024

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    Disruptive editing and WP:TALKNO by User:AnonMoos

    The main issue with this editor at the moment is disruptive editing based on continuous abuse of WP:TALKNO and failure to get the point. Issues began when this editor removed 5000+ bytes of sourced material. They did it again and again and again.

    Instead of starting a discussion on the talk page of the article, the user came to my talk page to let me know of their opinion of my contributions. When I started a discussion on the talk page of the relevant article, the user edited my signature and changed the heading of the discussion I started according to their POV. When I let them know that this was highly inappropriate according to WP:TALKNO, both in that discussion and on their talk page, they responded on my talk page stating ever since the stupid Misplaced Pages Dec. 2019 encryption protocol upgrade, to able to edit or view Misplaced Pages at all from my home computer, I have to use an indirect method which involves a non-fully-Unicode-compliant tool. I couldn't even really see your signature that way, and so didn't know to try to avoid changing it, which I had never heard of. In any case, they kept reverting the content supported by the reliable source, they also kept attempting to apply their POV to the discussion heading again and again and again. I finally explained that I had sought a third opinion and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, and they went ahead and changed it again anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by إيان (talk • contribs) 15:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

    The other user in this case is User:AnonMoos? This looks like a content dispute over whether the article is on the English version of a German-Arabic dictionary or the dictionary itself. Secretlondon (talk) 15:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes the is indeed about User:AnonMoos. I see the content dispute as stemming from the fundamental conduct issue, which has manifested itself most egregiously with insisting on violating WP:TALKNO repeatedly even after I explained that I had sought a third opinion and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, after which they went ahead and changed it again anyway. إيان (talk) 16:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    The heading dispute is between a date heading, and a descriptive heading? that's not really reformulating your entry. Secretlondon (talk) 17:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    It's a conduct issue. إيان (talk) 19:58, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    But what conduct issue? TALKNO doesn't forbid changing headings. In fact the wider guideline makes it clear it's perfectly acceptable "Because threads are shared by multiple editors (regardless of how many have posted so far), no one, including the original poster, "owns" a talk page discussion or its heading. It is generally acceptable to change headings when a better heading is appropriate, e.g., one more accurately describing the content of the discussion or the issue discussed, less one-sided, more appropriate for accessibility reasons, etc. Whenever a change is likely to be controversial, avoid disputes by discussing a heading change with the editor who started the thread, if possible. It can also sometimes be appropriate to merge entire sections under one heading (often preserving the later one as a subheading) if their discussions are redundant." To be blunt, if you don't want editors changing the headings of sections you start, don't use such terrible headings. I definitely recommend you stay away from ANI since changing headings is quite common here. Nil Einne (talk) 06:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    Actually I missed the signature issue. That's far more concerning unfortunately lost IMO partly because you concentrated on silly stuff. Nil Einne (talk) 06:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    ‎إيان: I suggest you stop messing around with the section heading since it's a distraction which could easily lead to you being blocked. But if AnonMoos changes your signature again, report it and only that without silliness about section headings, mentioning that they've been warned about it before if needed. Nil Einne (talk) 06:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

    I wrote a long and detailed explanation on his user talk page as to why the date-only header is basically useless in that context, but he's still for some peculiar reason fanatically determined to keep changing it back. Frankly, I've basically run out of good-faith reasons that make any sense -- except of course, his apparently unshakable belief that he has certain talk-page "rights", which according to Misplaced Pages guidelines he does not in fact have (outside of his own personal user talk page)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

    @AnonMoos: I don't see a problem with changing the heading but why on earth did you change their signature multiple times ? That is indeed a clear violation of WP:TPOC since the signature was perfectly valid per WP:NLS. In fact your change was far worse since it changed a perfectly valid signature which would take other editors to the contributor's talk page and user page into an invalid one which lead no where. If you're using some sort of plugin which does that, it's your responsibility to manage it better so it doesn't do that ever again especially if you're going to edit talk pages where it might be common. If you're doing that intentionally, I suggest you cut it out or expect to be indeffed. Nil Einne (talk) 06:48, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    User:AnonMoos, this is not good to see. Don't rewrite or reformat other editor's signatures. There is no reason to be doing this unless you are trying to provoke the other editor. Liz 07:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    For what it's worth, AnonMoos stated earlier that the changing of the signature was a unintentional technical issue, due to his use of some "non-standard tool" in accessing the internet . This seems plausible, as similar apparently unintentional changes to non-Ascii character data have happened in edits of his before (e.g. ). But if he knew of this issue, it's rather disappointing he let it happen again some days later . Equally disappointing is the extremely aggressive rhetoric and acerbic tone with which he has been escalating this essentially harmless, good-faith content dispute from the beginning. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    I just can't fathom what tool they're using to get around the HTTPS requirement to edit Misplaced Pages securely. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    Should be impossible as it's required to even access the site in the first place according to WP:SECLakesideMiners 16:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Looking at his talk page it's been going back to at least 2011LakesideMiners 16:17, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Guys, I do not deliberately set out to modify signatures, and when it happens, I am not usually aware of doing so. As I've already explained before in several places, since the December 2019 encryption protocol upgrade (NOT 2011!), the only way I can edit (or view) Misplaced Pages at all from home is by an indirect method which is not fully Unicode-compliant. To change this, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection, which would permanently disconnect my older computer, which I still use almost every day.
    Meanwhile, this thread has been set up so I can't add a comment to it from home without affecting Unicode characters, so I was unable to reply here for 36 hours or so. If I'm silent in the future, it will be for the same reason. AnonMoos (talk) 01:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Misplaced Pages uses Unicode characters (UTF-8 encoding). Anyone who cannot edit without corrupting such characters should not edit. Johnuniq (talk) 03:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Whatever, -- I was using them perfectly fine until December 2019, and still use them perfectly fine on public WiFi, but in December 2019 a requirement was imposed that you can't access Misplaced Pages at all unless you can handle encryption algorithms and protocols that weren't introduced until the mid-2010s. I have a 2012 web browser on my home computer that handles UTF-8 just fine, but 2012 simply wasn't good enough for the Misplaced Pages developers -- you had to have software that was almost up to date as of 2019, or you would be abruptly totally cut off. If you can drag up the relevant archive of Village Pump Technical, I and others complained at the time, but our concerns were not listened to or considered in any way. The basic attitude of the developers was that if you weren't running almost up-to-date software, then screw you, and if your computer is not capable of running almost up-to-date software, then double screw you! The change was announced for January 2020, but was actually implemented in mid-December 2019, apparently because they were so eager and anxious to start excluding people. It wasn't one of Misplaced Pages's finer moments. Since that time, I have had to use an indirect method to access Misplaced Pages from my home computer, and I don't feel particularly guilty about it (other people's obnoxious behaviors in 2019 have done away with most of the guilt I might feel)... AnonMoos (talk) 20:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    ...HTTPS was created in 1994, and became an official specification in 2000, not "mid-2010s". I'm not sure what 2012 web browser you're using, but if it's not able to handle HTTPS not being able to access Misplaced Pages with it is the least of your browsing concerns, given that 85-95% of the World Wide Web defaults to it now. Also I hate to think of how many security holes your ancient computer has. I'm going to be honest: with a brower setup that old it isn't safe for you to be on the web at all, and the security hole that lets you access Misplaced Pages without using a secure connection should be fixed, because that is not working as intended and is - as mentioned - a security hole. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:18, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    You unfortunately don't know what you're talking about. New ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL METHODS have been introduced within HTTPS from time to time. I was using HTTPS perfectly happily until December 2019, when the developers arbitrarily ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. AnonMoos (talk) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    And even leaving that aside, as Johnuniq mentions - if you can't edit without corrupting Unicode characters, and by your own admission you don't know when it happens, you shouldn't be editing. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    This is probably a reference to when Misplaced Pages started requiring TLS 1.2 (because earlier versions were deprecated). Anyone who was/is still on Windows XP at that point couldn't connect any more. MrOllie (talk) 01:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm not talking about when the update happening, I'm talking about how you have known about this issue, and have been getting complainants about it since 2011and are still not taking any steps to do anything about it. What kind of internet connection would not support your PC? What on earth are you even using? Dial-Up? Because that still is supported by even Windows 10. LakesideMiners 02:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    :::Also, how did you see me saying "this has happened since 2011" as me saying that the update happened in 2011? Can you clarify. LakesideMiners 03:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    The problem didn't start in 2011, and I have no idea what you're referring to when you mention 2011. The problem started in December 2019 when the developers arbitrarily imposed new ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS... AnonMoos (talk) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Apologies. I was extremely tired when I wrote both above. I have striken the date parts. Rest of my comments still stand. LakesideMiners 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    None of this matters

    I don't care what tool this guy uses or what his excuse is. If he can't edit without screwing up people's sigs, then he must not edit. AnonMoos shouls consider himself on notice now that if one of his edits messes stuff up one more time, he'll be blocked until he can give assurance that he's come into the 21st century. EEng 18:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    That's nice -- and also totally inaccurate. I was in the 21st century, and using 2012 tools, up until December 2019, when the developers pitchforked me backwards by arbitrarily imposing HTTPS ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS which my home computer hardware is not able to run. Notice that I had no problem complying with character-set handling -- the problem is with arbitrary ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. AnonMoos (talk) 00:48, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The century imagery is irrelevant. You have been warned. EEng 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    That was six years ago, which is IMO about 3-4 years too long to keep using it as an excuse. Technology changes over time, so whatever this non-standard thing you think you need to do to edit here, it may be time to make a choice. Zaathras (talk) 00:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    As I said, to fix the problem, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection which would permanently disconnect my old computer, which I still use almost every single day. I would basically have to change my workflow and overall habits/methods of working because of an arbitrary decision by Misplaced Pages developers about encryption protocol updates. Anyway, when editing through public WiFi, I'm 100% Unicode compliant, and by exercising a little prudence, I can also avoid most problems when working from home. If I was constantly mangling Unicode right and left, there would have been a chorus of complaints long before now. But occasionally I can't anticipate a problem... AnonMoos (talk) 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    And just to say for the third time: you're out of chances. "Occassionally" is too often. Once more is too often. And if and when that happens, your attitude of entitlement displayed here will pretty much ensure an indefinite block. EEng 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Think it's time to draft up a formal proposal at this point? LakesideMiners 18:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't think that's necessary. The key isn't formally deciding the criterion for blocking (because that's obvious to everyone) but rather detecting the next incident. Best way to do that for everyone gathered here to watchlist User talk:AnonMoos. Sooner or later, futher trouble will show up there. EEng 21:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    If you have DSL or even DialUp. That still works with modern machines. LakesideMiners 01:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Heck, I am on DSL (and have been since, if I recall right, 2008). I have no idea what sort of ancient Internet connection AnonMoos is claiming to be using, but it's clearly one that was already obsolete before this change he's still up in arms about six years later was made. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Not to mention it would STILL be supported these days. It's literally right there when you click wifi/network settings in Windows 10. LakesideMiners 18:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • The response by AnonMoos to feedback about this problem is bizarre. I don't really care what the excuse or the history behind it. If you are unwilling to edit Misplaced Pages using tools that work in 2024 then you should stop editing. The behavior is completely unnecessary and it seems like you don't understand the disruption. Nemov (talk) 14:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • AnonMoos hasn't really explained in any detail what their technical limitations are. They don't have to, but we can't really give advice otherwise. If as others have suggested their computer can't negotiate TLS 1.2, I'm surprised that they're able to use any websites at all from that computer. Requiring TLS 1.2 is not controversial; Misplaced Pages wasn't doing anything unusual in dropping TLS 1.0/1.1 around that time. Mackensen (talk) 15:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • If it's that much of a problem for his computer, go and buy a new computer. It would certainly be better than whining about how Misplaced Pages broke his ability to edit without screwing things up for other users.Insanityclown1 (talk) 07:06, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    Meh. None of this matters. Signatures sometimes get accidentally fucked up. This is an encyclopedia, not a forum, and this signature thing is not a real disruption to the creation of encyclopedic content. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 07:21, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    While true, it's still a violation of WP:TPO, and if it's accidentally changing characters in signatures, who knows what else it might be doing that isn't getting caught or reported? - The Bushranger One ping only 07:27, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    Disruptive editing by User talk:185.146.112.192

    IP blocked 24 hours, and then kept digging and created an account to evade the block, which has now been indef'd. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    The User talk:185.146.112.192 is engaging in disrupte editing. Neither does this IP provide sources and is POV pushing. And this IP has been warned multiple times for this on his/her talk page.

    Moroike (talk) 20:52, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

    @Moroike: It looks like you both are edit warring on Kichik Bazar Mosque. That's not particularly helpful, so you should try to have a discussion on the article talk page as to whether you should include the Talysh language name for the article in the lead/infobox. –MJL ‐Talk‐ 20:33, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    MJL why and how did you pick out that one article over the many this IP has made recent changes to? The IP has been making disputed edits for months and has been reverted by a number of editors, not just Moroike. CMD (talk) 01:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @CMD: I am not suggesting that the IP editor isn't being disruptive, but my point is that Moroike isn't making the situation better (using the example of that one article). You can see this by looking at their last 50 contributions where they have mostly just reverted this editor without using a summary. –MJL ‐Talk‐ 18:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The IP's edits were removed a total of 13 times on the page regarding the capital city of Azerbaijan, Baku. You can't let him continue engaging in further edit wars with other users besides Moroike, can you? Nuritae331 (talk) 17:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Since this IP user won't stop and is stonewalling, either he/should be temporarily blocked, or all the pages he is POV pushing without sources, should be semi-protected, so that only registered users can edit them. Moroike (talk) 21:37, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    After he/she was blocked for 24 hours, this IP created an account as User talk:Ibish Agayev in order to evade the block and has resumed his/her POV pushing. Moroike (talk) 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User engaged in edit warring to remove disputed content prior to consensus

    There's nothing actionable in this content dispute, except perhaps trouting the original poster for failing to assume good faith and hounding friendly admins when they try to help. Longtime user User:Sxbbetyy (4.5 yrs, over 5K edits) has made several assertions based on their clear misunderstanding of social norms. In this discussion they've failed to notify the subject (they actually failed to use the subject's name in the OP), they've failed to bring any diffs, they failed to sign their post, and over and over they seem to have failed to assume good faith of their fellow editors. A number of editors including several admins have attempted to talk Sxbbetyy down. Nobody in this discussion seems to agree with Sxbbetyy on the merits, yet Sxbbetyy keeps circling back to their own personal interpretation of policy. The discussion at User talk:Sergecross73, where Sxbbetyy refuses to listen to the admin they asked, gives another example of the problem. Sxbbetyy is reminded that creating a post on ANI puts all their own behaviors up for examination. BusterD (talk) 15:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Title is pretty self explanatory. Rather than engage in the consensus building process to determine if the disputed content discussed here is problematic, this editor has instead immediately reverted the disputed content. They have been informed of the relevant policies prohibiting this behavior and how it should normally be handled (tagging the content as disputed while the discussion is ongoing) but have elected to instead engage in edit warring to keep the disputed content removed prior to any consensus on the matter. Also important to note that they wish to have the content removed entirely, but have stated that they no longer intend to participate in the consensus building discussion. So this appears to be a WP:STONEWALLING tactic to accomplish their goal of removing the content immediately without a consensus. Seeking admin help to halt this behavior and restore the content with the correct tagging.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sxbbetyy (talk • contribs) 23:36, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

    It would help if you named the editor and signed your name to figure out what you are talking about; a noticeboard only works if you give us notice about the subject and what is happening. Nate • (chatter) 23:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    The editor appears to be PerfectSoundWhatever, based on the link under the word "this" as well as this notification. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 23:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    My apology, this is my very first time making such a post. The other pages o have spoken on seemed to have signed themselves automatically. Will remember this going forward. And yes, that was the user, posted this using my phone so I didn't want to mis-spell their name, just linked instead. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    (Non-administrator comment) IMO the best practice is that in the event of a content dispute, the article should be reverted to the status quo of how the article's content appeared before the dispute started, until such a time that consensus is established to re-add it (see: WP:STATUSQUO). It seems like the beginning of the content that is in dispute was added on 18 August 2024, the dispute began a few weeks later on 23 September 2024 and has been ongoing ever since.In this case, since the article existed in a relatively steady state for several months (or even years?) previous to the disputed material being added, I think it'd be wise to leave the disputed content out of the article until the discussion comes to a close. RachelTensions (talk) 00:07, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have been seeing this opinion from a few editors and even one admin on how to interpret this article. However, the first few sentences in that section do outright state to avoid reverting the disputed content prior to a consensus. And prior to opening this report, I asked several admins on the topic and got a response that reverting the disputed content immediately is incorrect per WP:STATUSQUO as it bypasses the consensus building process. I was advised that the content should instead be tagged as disputed rather than be outright removed. The offending user was made aware of the relevant policies but has nonetheless engaging in edit warring to keep it reverted, hence this report. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:13, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    The status quo of an article constitutes implicit consensus (WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS). The person trying to include disputed content in an article despite it not being status quo is the one that could be construed as attempting to bypass the consensus building process, not the person trying to maintain status quo until discussion takes place. RachelTensions (talk) 17:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Correct, and at no point was the definition of what constitutes the status quo ever in contention. In fact, if you review the edit history of the article you can see that the disputed content was the status quo via implicit consensus at the time PSW chose to first outright revert the content, and then continued to revert it as others tried to restore it (both before and after the consensus discussion began). Sxbbetyy (talk) 23:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    the disputed content was the status quo via implicit consensus at the time PSW chose to first outright revert the content
    Not really, I personally wouldn't define "been there a few weeks" as status quo.I think maybe the other replies to this thread provide pretty good reasoning to take a step back and say "hey maybe I'm the one in the wrong here" instead of talking in circles RachelTensions (talk) 00:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Personally I think the number of contributions since the edit where it has gone unchanged is a more useful metric, especially on low traffic pages such as this one. Regardless, per the policy you cite, there seems to be no official Misplaced Pages stance on what exact criteria are needed for a contribution to be considered the current status quo, beyond it having been unchallenged in subsequent contributions (which is the case here).
    As for the rest of your comment, there seems to be a high amount of band wagoning and "Proof by assertion" going on in the rest of this. Or people trying to use this report as an extension of the dispute discussion on the article's talk page. Hopefully more actual admins to chime in on the topic as I don't actually want to waste my time talking in circles.
    On that note thanks for actually taking the time and baseline minimal effort to engage in a discussion where you actually support your point and don't just devolve into repeating the same talking points over and over. It's a nice change of pace. Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I am the editor being discussed here. I'll provide a summary of events since the initial statement by Sxbbetyy is misleading.
    Myself and the editor had a content dispute at Team Seas (1) and following circular discussion, I stopped engaging since I felt I had laid out my points. Per WP:STATUSQUO, I maintained the state of the article to before the dispute. I requested for a third opinion, which was answered by @BerryForPerpetuity:, who agreed the statement should be removed, albeit for a different reason than mine. I took this 2-1 as rough consensus. I also posted the dispute on two WikiProjects, and have received no response so far. Sxbbetyy reached out to three admins about the matter, @Sergecross73, Oshwah, and Pbsouthwood:. The Sergecross73 discussion can be summarized as Sergecross believing that I haven't engaged in misconduct, and that I have presented a "plausible, good-faith interpretation of SYNTH". Sxbbetyy then accused Sergecross73 of not acting in good faith. Oshwah did not respond to the post on their talk page, but @BusterD: did, essentially agreeing that the sourcing does not back up the claim in the content dispute. Sxbbetyy received help on Pbsouthwood's talk page about responding to a content dispute. And now we're here.
    Throughout these interactions, Sxbbetyy has demonstrated a failure to assume good faith, refuses to accept that they may be wrong, and WP:BLUDGEONs talk pages, refusing to let the other editor have the last word. Frankly, this is a massive waste of editor time: it should have been a brief talk page discussion then an RfC. Apologies for all the pings. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 00:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    This summarization in itself leaves out critical context, (such as berry's concern being alleviated and them no longer expressing a desire to remove the content), the specifics of why that conversation with Serge ended the way it did despite my repeated attempts to engage with them in good faith, and the entire discussion with pbsouthwood (who quite definitively explained that the behavior PSW was engaged in was not correct). So I urge all involved to go read those topics to get the correct context through your own eyes and then discuss any concerns from what you see here. That being the case, it seems pretty clear cut imo. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Just to be clear, in no way did I express that I didn't want the content to be removed. I did not receive a notification for your reply, and I wouldn't have engaged either way. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 17:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, I would leave that material out of the article. Whilst it may not exactly be synthesis per se, it is certainly editorialising ("the removal of that amount of marine debris is of negligible consequence...") unless there is an actual source that says this by making a link between between the two statistics (the amount of waste removed by Team Seas and the rate at which waste is entering the ecosystem). And even then, I would say that such an edit would need to say something like "However, ARandomNewspaper pointed out that ...". Black Kite (talk) 00:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    That is actually no longer the content that is being disputed. If you look at the latest version that got reverted on the article you can see the current version. I had made edits to it precisely because of valid WP:NPOV concerns brought to my attention by PSW. However, their dispute with the content remains with the claim that is is synthesis rather than any other concern. Which they have been thus far unable to obtain a consensus on. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    • I have some pretty serious WP:IDHT concerns about the topic starter here. They came to me for help (no idea how/why me, I have no connection to this dispute) and I repeatedly told them I didn't see any misconduct, and then they started attacking me when I refused to agree with them. And now this. This is a very simple content dispute, with a very simple no consensus means no change outcome. I've told them this. It's a disappointing time sink on a rather trivial content dispute. Sergecross73 msg me 00:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
      At no point was he "attacked". I defended myself after he became hostile with me (as anyone can read in our convo, I stated multiple times that I would leave and did not want to be a burden if they didn't want to engage with this, but he made no such objections and continued). Eventually he just became outright hostile and refused to explain their points any further, devolving the conversation into them repeating themselves over and over, its all there to read on his talk page. As for why I contacted him, I wanted to ensure I chose impartially so I just randomly looked at the currently active admins at the time and he was the first one I found. Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
      The discussion is right here, if anyone wants to look. The "attack" I'm referring to you is your accusation that I responded to you in bad faith. I was not involved in the dispute, have no stance on it, and had no pre-conceived notions about either of you - what in the world would my motivations be for "bad faith responses"? It doesn't make any sense. You simply didn't get the response you wanted, and proceeded to badger me on it. Did I get vaguely irritated when I volunteered my time to review and comment on a dispute I had no stance or interest in, only to get all sorts of sour grapes responses on it? Yeah, sure, but who wouldn't? Sergecross73 msg me 18:44, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    • I'm here from my input at the 3rd opinion request. This is nothing more than a trivial content dispute, I see no reason for this to be at ANI. I somewhat agree with the claim of synthesis, it becomes more susceptible to incorrect information, and from my analysis it seemed like the claim in the disputed content was completely wrong. Two different sources, from two different time periods. My $0.02: The claim of stonewalling is ridiculous, there was ample good-faith discussion based on existing policy and guidelines. This editor does not assume good faith, it appears that he claims that editors disagreeing are acting in bad faith. From him to administrator Sergecross73: "I'm not wasting time engaging with you if you aren't going to speak with me in good faith." It seems that he roots his argument based on the editor who removed it rather than the content itself. Very unfortunate waste of time. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 15:31, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
      Exactly. It's not "stonewalling" that's happening here. PerfectSoundWhatever has discussed at-length at the talk page. They're simply not willing to talk circles indefinitely. And we don't require that of editors. I've urged Sxbbetyy to, rather that spin their wheels arguing with the same person endlessly in a stalemate, to try to get other participants to take part. But they've refused, and instead decided to move their arguing to ANI instead. As I noted to them in one of my last comments to them, if they spent half as much effort in consensus-building as they did complaining and arguing, they could have built a consensus by now... Sergecross73 msg me 17:30, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
      Reading any of what I wrote in this dispute shows clearly that is not the case. Also, the quoted sentence is completely taken out of context.
      Here is what was said in the mesaage before that they left out, "Not really the logical conclusion one draws from reading any of what I wrote here, where I asked multiple times for you to explain your reasoning in your replies (instead your response was to repeat yourself without offering further explanation), but if that is what you want to take away from this that's fine by me. I'm not wasting time engaging with you if you aren't going to speak with me in good faith."
      The message as a whole was replying to was a passive aggressive insult that didn't progress that conversation, hence the response as it was clearly not an example of engagement in good faith.Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Also, it looks like the participants in the dispute on the Team Seas article are acting as if this report is an extension of that dispute discussion.
    This is a report of edit warring to revert disputed content prior to a consensus being reached (there was no consensus prior to the reversion and there still is no consensus, as admitted by PSW themselves in that very dispute and In their latest revert message, no idea why now in this report they are trying to claim that there is suddenly consensus for removal).
    This is not a report on the dispute itself, just to make that very clear since those involved are responding as if it is. Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    You've still got this backward. You need to show a consensus to keep your content in the article, as everyone else has been telling you. WP:ONUS is directly on point, and I'll quote it here: The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. MrOllie (talk) 18:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Thank you. I have tried to inform them of this many times and many ways. I do not know why they cannot wrap their head around the concept. Conceptually, it would be very problematic if we were required to retain every disputed content until consensus ruled it out. It wouldn't be workable. Sergecross73 msg me 19:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Nobody is arguing WP:ONUS here...not in the dispute and not here in this report. The point is that the content is being removed prior to there being a consensus on if it should be removed.
    I was directly advised by admin Pbsouthwood that the removal of disputed content BEFORE any consensus has been reached is not allowed (save for specific situations, none of which apply to the disputed content) as this bypasses the consensus building process. Here is the talk page where I was advised this. This is echoed with the wording in WP:STONEWALLING and WP:STATUSQUO. Here is the direct quote from the latter, "To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the status quo ante bellum during a dispute discussion. Instead, add an appropriate tag indicating the text is disputed. For an article, many of the inline dispute tags are appropriate. For other pages, is good. Leave the status quo and the tag in place until the discussion concludes." Sxbbetyy (talk) 19:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    The point is that the content is being removed prior to there being a consensus on if it should be removed. <--- No. This is your problem. What you are saying here is incorrect. Policies say the opposite of this. You are not going to get support at ANI. In fact, the longer you keep going with this WP:IDHT insistence that community practice is actually the opposite of what policies plainly say it is, the more likely it is you're going to find yourself blocked for disruption. Pbsouthwood didn't tell you this either (what he wrote doesn't match what you've been doing), and your initial question did not properly represent the situation at hand. But we can invite him here to see if he actually supports what you're doing here: @Pbsouthwood:, what say you? MrOllie (talk) 20:06, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    This entire comment serves absolutely zero purpose whatsoever. You're parroting what others have already said with no supporting evidence. Along with throwing in an oddly included threat that is completely nonsensical and wholly unwarranted.
    And while I could point out the myriad of ways your claim about what Pbsouthwood said was inaccurate, that would pretty much involve reposting his reply, which is a waste since anyone can already go to his talk page and read it themselves.
    So at this point, if you need that admin to come here and tell you what they already said themselves, more power to you. Would save us all a ton of time to get an authoritative answer on this, especially with another admin holding the opposite view point, in spite of the specific policy wording. Sxbbetyy (talk) 23:08, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    No matter how much you insist otherwise, there does not need to be an established consensus for the removal of content. Drop the stick. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm not the one insisting otherwise...this report only exists because an admin told me otherwise. And as I've posted in my previous replies, the wording in the policies clearly support that. Makes me question how many have actually bothered to really read these policies... Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    The other admin told you nothing about the removal of WP:SYNTH, which is always appropriate. Back away from the dead horse. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:19, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    1. This report is not an extension of the dispute discussion for that article, if you want to involve yourself in that discussion, do so there, do not hijack this report.
    2. The disputed content is plainly not WP:SYNTH as I explain on the talk page in great length, with nobody thus far having provided valid examples as to how it is.
    3. If you are going to make the claim that any WP:SYNTH concerns warrant immediate reversion without consensus, please feel free to share the quote in the relevant policy that says this. I have not found any such wording and instead found that what is present matches up with what PBsouthwood informed me.
    Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Come on, how many people need to tell you you're wrong? Sergecross73 msg me 02:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    At this point I say that my advice was given without a specific context, and without prejudice. I maintain that it is more collegial and polite to discuss a removal of unsourced but plausible content before removing it, as it can often avoid disputes of this kind, but it is not forbidden to arbitrarily delete content that an editor plausibly considers inappropriate provided the relevant reason is given. It is always the responsibility of the person advocating inclusion to provide a reference when challenged, regardless of the process of challenge.
    Some forms of synthesis are acceptable. If a conclusion is logically inevitable based on undisputed factual premises, or is a simple mathematical calculation, we routinely accept claims that may not be specifically stated in a source, but we may require the logic to be explained, as it may not be obvious to the reader.
    At the risk of being hoist with my own petard, I also refer readers to WP:Don't be a dick (looks like that essay has been expunged, try Meta:Don't be a jerk). · · · Peter Southwood : 06:59, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I think many of us used to the mess editors adding unsourced content can create would strongly oppose leaving in unsourced content just because it's plausible. The standard should instead be at a minimum that you believe the claim made is most likely correct and sourceable not simply that it's plausible. Although ultimately such discussions are a little silly anyway. If editors would just add sources rather than leaving it for someone else because they're claiming it's unlikely to be challenged or whatever, there would be a need for others to decide whether to query or remove unsourced content. Nil Einne (talk) 09:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I was suggesting tagging with citation needed while you wait a reasonable time for a response, but as we know some of us do not have the patience and just revert. It in not unheard of to know something, but not have a source handy at the time. What is obvious to one may be totally obscure to others. This is acceptable within policy and guidelines. You could start a RfC to have the guidelines changed, but I suspect it would not get through as being a bit bitey. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood : 12:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, what you say is true, that's absolutely an acceptable approach. But that's not really the problem at hand here. The bigger issue is that Sxbbetyy appears to be believe that the alternative approach - reverting per STATUSQUO or NOCONSENSUS - is somehow misconduct, and that's simply not true. They're not arguing about if your approach is valid, they're arguing that its compulsory, and they're attempting to report a user for not following your possible approach, which is completely meritless. Sergecross73 msg me 17:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Please do not put words in my mouth. The only reason this report exists is because Peter Southwood advised that this was how I should proceed if the editor participating in this no-consensus reverting continued to do so and was unreceptive to further discussion. (Both are true by admission of PSW themselves). Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, I've seen that discussion, but you presented the situation to them entirely in hypotheticals that lacks crucial context. You frame PSW as unwilling to engage in discussion but omit the fact that PSW did engage in extensive discussion already. You accuse PSW of edit warring to keep their information in the article, but omit the fact that you're equally guilty of edit warring, as you're responsible for every single counter-revert in the situation. I would think the near-unanimous rejection of this ANI report would indicate that this was not, in fact, a good thing to report. Best case scenario, this is archived with no action, but I'd be shocked if it didn't result in a WP:BOOMERANG. Sergecross73 msg me 18:44, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't know why you are attempting to present the entire discussion on that talk page as some sort of proof that PSW was willing to engage in further discussion to halt the behavior this report is about. At no point whatsoever did PSW ever indicate anything like that; if they did this report wouldn't exist as the discussions on your talk page or Peter Southwood's page would have never needed to happen. Not to mention if you take the time to actually read the discussion, you see that most of it is on the specifics of the validity of the WP:SYNTH claim made by PSW, eventually culminating in PSW actually asserting that they will not stop change their position on this and then outright refusing to engage any further.
    And now you accuse me of edit warring by citing the entire recent edit history of the page...this isn't fooling anyone who actually bothers to read any of the revert messages and examine the timeline of when they occurred (talk about omitting "crucial context").
    Beyond just slandering my character, I don't really see what these kind of spurious claims accomplish. It wastes everyone's time, makes yourself look biased and hostile, and adds nothing to the conversation. Keep things civil please, I really shouldn't have to tell you of all people that basic expectation. Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Wait...are you seriously trying to suggest that, even though you were the only one who reverted him every single time, he was edit warring and you weren't? Sergecross73 msg me 02:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    If you are going to continue to twist words and make false claims immediately after being asked to keep things civil, maybe it would be best for all involved if you just moved on from this conversation. Sad that even has to be stated at this point, it should be a given. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yet another IDHT response where you try to baselessly chastize me rather than address anything anyone is saying to you. Sergecross73 msg me 18:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    What a choice to post this exact type reply to my last message... not to mention the sheer absurdity of it. To claim that I've never addressed anyone's points in my replies is so easily and visibly wrong (literally this entire topic is full of my detailed replies to people's concerns, including this very reply) that it's almost insulting to the rest of the people participating in this or to anyone who even chooses to read that message. It's as if you think nobody can see the rest of this discussion (or even the comments directly above it). Sxbbetyy (talk) 11:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Thank you for taking the time to respond and my apology for any inconvenience it may have caused. Ive tried to keep it as civil as possible, but there seems to be a very hostile air in this discussion by those with the dissenting opinion. As for how this situation is to be resolved, would it be appropriate to restore the currently disputed content with the appropriate tags (as it is sourced and was the statusquo on the page at the time of reversion)? Or is there something further that must be done here? I'm generally unfamiliar with how ANIs actually function. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Have you considered starting an WP:RFC? The fact is that you made a WP:BOLD addition to the article; someone else objected to it, which means you now ought to seek consensus for your addition. As numerous people have told you, none of the relevant policies and guidelines (WP:ONUS, WP:BRD, WP:QUO, etc) would allow you to make a recent addition the "default" the way you want, but more generally - the problem is that you're trying to dig through policy for something that will make your preferred version the default, allowing you to have it in the article without having to demonstrate consensus for it even in the face of challenges. Even if the policies and guidelines I listed were on your side this would still be a bad way to approach it. You have a conflict, your goal should be to resolve it by making consensus as clear as possible - figuring out what the crux of the dispute is and then, if you can't reach a compromise, holding an RFC to see where consensus lies. Also, I have to point out that just by a quick nose count of people who have weighed in on talk, I'm seeing a dispute that is now three-to-one against you. That is a consensus - not a massive one, maybe an RFC will pull in a bunch of people that say something else, but it doesn't make sense for you to keep demanding a consensus to remove something you added when there actually is such a consensus on talk. You've disagreed with their arguments but they're not obliged to WP:SATISFY you; ultimately if you think your arguments are so strong and theirs are so weak, the only real option for you at this point is to start an RFC and hope that you can demonstrate that there. --Aquillion (talk) 04:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    As mentioned earlier in the discussion, this report is not an extension of the dispute on that article, nor is that what this report is about. Also, a RFC was already started for the topic about a week or so ago by PSW, but that occurred after he reverted the status quo, disputed content with discussion (repeatedly). As for the rest of your comment, Peter Southwood, an admin, has addressed what is the actual expectation. Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    What? I never started an RfC. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 19:07, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I just checked and on 12/9/24 at Serge's talk page you said the following, "Thanks – just wanted to mention I requested comments from WP Internet Culture and WP YouTube about 2 weeks ago."
    Did that not actually happen? Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:11, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    WP:RFC is a specific process. Asking questions on a couple of Wikiprojects is not an RFC. MrOllie (talk) 02:22, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    That's fundamentally not what an RFC is. This is getting ridiculous... Sergecross73 msg me 03:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    It's almost like this is the very first time I've ever been involved in this kind of issue on Misplaced Pages before...seriously these kind of replies come off as rude and don't actually say anything meaningful or helpful. Ever since our conversation on your talk page you have made next to no real effort to engage in good faith and I find that highly disappointing to be coming from an admin. And my apology if I offended you at all at some point or if you have just "lost your patience" with me, but I don't see how that gives you the green flag to suddenly disregard WP:Civility. I certainly haven't, in spite of being on the receiving end of this. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    I haven't said anything uncivil, I just keep calling you out when you say something incorrect. Sergecross73 msg me 18:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Cunningham's Law, is a powerful force, I find it difficult to resist myself. MrOllie (talk) 18:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    Request for closure

    Despite its large size, the consensus here is quite clear. There's no misconduct here, just standard following of procedures of WP:STATUSQUO and WP:NOCONSENSUS, which is perfectly acceptable. Not a single person has suggested taking any action towards PerfectSoundWhatver. Outside of a a potential IDHT BOOMERANG, there's nothing left to be done here. Can someone close this? Sergecross73 msg me 14:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    I second that. If there has been any edit-warring by any party that should be dealt with in the normal way. PerfectSoundWhatever has certainly done nothing wrong, and the OP will get blocked if they don't start listening to people pretty quickly. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Exactly. And even that's probably unlikely, as most of the "edit warring" was singular reverts with days or weeks in between. It's far from a 3RR situation at least. Sergecross73 msg me 15:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    (Non-administrator comment) I don't think this conversation is going anywhere fast, other than seemingly coming to the conclusion that @PerfectSoundWhatever has done nothing wrong, which seems to be the opposite of what this ANI post was about. There's no edit warring here, and even if there was, it wouldn't be dealt with at this venue. Shut it down! RachelTensions (talk) 16:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    In what way whatsoever is this editor's decision to revert the disputed content during the discussion "standard following of procedures of WP:STATUSQUO"? The literal first words that appear at that link are in bold and say, "Avoid reverting during discussion", followed by a detailed explanation of the actual proper procedure. And to make it very clear what it says, here is the literal first paragraph verbatim: "To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the status quo ante bellum during a dispute discussion. Instead, add an appropriate tag indicating the text is disputed. For an article, many of the inline dispute tags are appropriate. For other pages, {{under discussion inline}} is good. Leave the status quo and the tag in place until the discussion concludes." Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    In what way is that your read of the consensus in the discussion above? Sergecross73 msg me 02:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    In what world do you logically come to that conclusion from a message that consist of almost entirely the word for word quote of the procedures described in WP:STATUSQUO, that directly counters the claim you just made? Are you saying it is "against consensus" simply because it presents a viewpoint you don't like and don't want to address? I don't see another reason why you would again twist my words, to the point of lunacy. And this is, once again, despite the fact that all of what has been said is literally within view.
    Also, regarding the consensus. Out of everyone that has actually joined the discussion and all the messages sent (~90% of which are either from myself or you Serge), there have been only three people who have actually said anything in support of your interpretation of this. The rest either did not discuss the topic, did not express an opinion, or were Peter Southwood who supported the interpretation of WP:STATUSQUO as stated on its page. Seems like you're just trying to rush a end to the conversation to get the conclusion you want. Sxbbetyy (talk) 15:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm saying there has been no consensus for anything you're arguing here. Not a single person has supported action against PSW. Sergecross73 msg me 15:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The status quo ante bellum that shouldn't be reverted from is the version without the new content. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Creating the need to make 400,000 unnecessary edits

    Can we please dp something about editors who make unnecessary changes to widely-used modules, and then need to change 400,000 talk pages to get the same result we had before the change? Thanks to this change from last week, which removed the parameter "living" from the bannershell, we now have more than 400,000 pages in Category:Pages using WikiProject banner shell with unknown parameters. After the "cleanup" by User:Tom.Reding (and perhaps others), we will have the exact same result as we had last week, no new functionality, no new categories, no improvement at all, but a lot of flooded watchlists.

    I tried to get him to stop at User talk:Tom.Reding#Cosmetic edits, to no avail. This isn't the first time, as you can see from that discussion. Fram (talk) 14:57, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

    If you want to discuss {{WikiProject banner shell}}, you should do so at Template talk:WikiProject banner shell.
    As for the size of the category, I have no plans to empty it, and was only going to update a few hundred more categories and templates.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  15:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    You made nearly 2000 of such edits in the last few hours, and when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries. I have no way to know how many more you planned now or in future runs. Starting a discussion at the module would hardly stop you. Fram (talk) 15:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    "when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries": incorrect. Since you wrongly thought I was making cosmetic edits, i.e. "no change in output or categories", the category was to inform you that they are not cosmetic.
    Regarding a BRFA for the bulk of the category, that's looking more likely since the category appears to be neglected.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  15:29, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Unnecessary removing a synonym and then making thousands of edits to remove the hidden cat created by that unnecessary change is not really any better than making cosmetic edits, the end result is that nothing has changed for the affected pages at all. Fram (talk) 15:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Not unnecessary. The Lua code is very complex and removing the need the support various settings makes the code both easier to read and maintain. As always, editors that don't want to see these edits can hide these by hiding the tag "talk banner shell conversion". Gonnym (talk) 12:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    It doesn´t look as if the specific code to have these synonyms was very complicated though, the argument that in some cases two synonyms were used on one page with conflicting values was more convincing. And the edits I complained about did not have that tag, so no, even if people knew about hiding that tag, it wouldn't have helped here at all. Fram (talk) 16:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    This was discussed in detail on Template talk:WikiProject banner shell. Ideally these edits would be done by an approved bot so they do not appear on people's watchlists. The main benefit is to merge the |blp= and |living= parameters. When both are in use, we find they often get conflicting values because one gets updated and the other does not. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Isn't it more logical to first have a bot cleanup the unwanted parameter, then remove it from the template, and only then start populating the cat with the somehow remaining or since added instances? In any case, this is a typical bot task and shouldn't be done with massive AWB runs. Fram (talk) 17:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, probably. But we have this mechanism already set up and I assumed Cewbot would deal with these as part of its normal activities. Happy to look at other options - maybe discuss on template talk? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't know what this is about, but if the OP is correct, it is totally absurd to edit 400,000 talk pages for a tweak. Discussing at a template talk page monitored by those focused on the template would simply hide the issue. Johnuniq (talk) 03:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Edits like these should always be bots, so they can be filtered from watchlists. There are numerous other editors who have recently engaged in the mass additional of categories to articles which I had to ask them to stop as my watchlist was flooded. GiantSnowman 13:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Hiding bot edits from watchlists is not a viable option for many editors, since it also hides any non-bot edits that predate the bot edit (phab:T11790, 2007, unassigned). Users AnomieBOT, Cluebot III, Lowercase sigmabot III, Citation bot, et al edit with such high frequency that hiding their edits leads to an unacceptable proportion of watchlist items not appearing. (Also, Citation bot's edits should usually be reviewed, since it has a non-negligible error rate and its activators typically don't review its output, exceptions noted.)The code for maintaining two aliases for one parameter cannot possibly be so complex as to warrant a half million edits. If one of the two "must" undergo deprecation, bundle it into Cewbot's task. If the values don't match, have the banner shell template populate a mismatch category.In general, if a decision is made to start treating as an error some phenomenon that has previously not been a problem, and that decision generates a maintenance category with tens or hundreds of thousands of members, it is a bad decision and the characterisation of the phenomenon as "erroneous" should be reversed.At minimum, any newly instanced maintenance task scoped to over a hundred thousand pages should come before the community for approval at a central venue. Folly Mox (talk) 15:19, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    Also, like, if only one of |blp= and |living= gets updated, shouldn't the net result be pretty obvious? Valid updates should really only go one direction. Folly Mox (talk) 15:24, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    Meanwhile, the category has grown to over 800,000 pages. Perhaps next time an RfC to determine whether creating such a large cleanup task is warranted, would be better? Fram (talk) 16:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Fram: this is logical. We should also make it a policy (or at least a guideline), something along the lines "if change would lead to edits/updating more than XYZ pages, a consensus should be achieved on a venue with a lot of visibility". Like Silver seren mentioned above, sometimes a formal consensus/discussion takes place, but it happens on obscure talk pages. —usernamekiran (talk) 14:01, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:Augmented Seventh

    User:Augmented Seventh is making wholesale reverts of my edits in contravention to guidelines. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 19:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

    You're removing demographic categories and templates by blanking them out; irreligion still deals with religion no matter your argument. That's definitely not compliant with WP:CAT and clearly vandalism. There's no action to take here except that you need to stop removing these categories and templates. Nate • (chatter) 19:42, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    And you are now required to cite how your edits meet WP:CAT; spamming it in edit summaries is not discussion. Nate • (chatter) 19:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    While doing routine vandal patrol, I came across what seemed to be a hasty and massive removal of content, being done in a very directed and personal manner.
    After looking at the persistent removal, and communicating, I restored the well-drawn categories.
    Hopefully, this is easily resolved.
    Augmented Seventh (talk) 20:40, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    43*, do not continue to revert these category removals without discussing them first. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    THere is nothing to discuss. The guidelines are clear. What needs to be done is editors need to be familiar with the cat guidelines. We don't discuss whether the sky is blue do we? 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    THey are not well drawn, it was not hasty, it was not massive, and it was not "personal". It was directed because they all had the same issue. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:07, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Editors should not blindly revert. They should be required to understand the guideleines. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    I gave up editing because there were too many problems that the wiki communtity is not sorting out. One of them is treating anon editors as second class wikicitizens.

    Another problem is "this is how it is so we are going to leave it like this for years and years" and this is at the expense of the quality of WP.

    I can't remember the specific category guideline for the edits I did but is the undoing editors need to look it up. Categorisation is something that a lot of editor do not understand. Go and put a notice on WikkiProoject Categorisation and you will fing that there is support for my edits.

    WP could be sooo much better. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    I'm sorry, but "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone" is an indication you should be trying to do better instead of telling us we should do the same. If you're not willing to actually explain why guidelines vindicate your changes, then being right sometimes isn't enough if you want to make things better. Communication is the process, not something ancillary to it. Remsense ‥ 论 02:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    GO and read the guidelines. It does not need discussion. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:15, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Discussion is required when other editors ask you questions in good faith in order to resolve present disputes and prevent future ones. Remsense ‥ 论 02:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Bear in mind this is WP and not social media. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    How do you get the impression that "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone". 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    No. You brought this here. The WP:ONUS is on you to explain how the guidelines justify your edits, not to say "go look it up". Also How do you get the impression that "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone" - because that's exactly what you said. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    It's not unreasonable in many cases to link to a very specific passage of a guideline and expect an editor to understand its meaning as regards a pertinent dispute, but you can't just fail to clearly articulate your argument while also insisting it's vindicated somewhere within the full text of a guideline. Remsense ‥ 论 02:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Content dispute. Bold edits were reverted; next step is discussion, probably at WT:CAT. If there is dispute over interpretation of the guideline you can consider leaving a pointer at WP:VPP. If there are any categories that shouldn't be used at all that can be discussed at WP:CFD. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 03:31, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    The content dispute could have been discussed on any of the talk pages. Yet it was brought here first. Conyo14 (talk) 06:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    When a content dispute involves several pages it is often though not always best to centralize discussion. Misunderstanding ANIs purpose and bringing content disputes here is a common and understandable error; best just to point people at appropriate WP:DR when that happens. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 06:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    Not overly impressed by 43's comments above. But do wish to note that their removal of Category:Corruption from at least one BLP appears to have been correct. The subsequent reversion of that removal is misfortune. Rotary Engine 08:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:ZanderAlbatraz1145 Civility and Content #2

    This user has engaged in a lengthy display of disruption. Namely through incessant incivility I have noticed they were previously reported for.

    Instances such as ordering IP editors to stop editing articles, hostilely chastising them, making personal attacks in edit summary on several occasions, etc. Users such as @Waxworker: and @Jon698: can speak to their experiences, I'll outline mine.

    On December 10, I noticed on the article Luca Guadagnino's unrealized projects page several additions were made that didn't adhere to the article's purpose. Zander restored these with an introductory summary rife with bad faith assertions about my intelligence and asserting they'd engage in edit war behavior. For the most part there was an attempt to discuss the issue we had, but ultimately did not see eye to eye. I asserted I'd be escalating the issue to garner more substantive dialogue around it, Zander's response includes a needless "bite me". I made some attempts at engaging the topic at the article's talk page, in addition to WikiProject Film, it was over a week that saw no input. I would go on to state that (at the time) in two days, I would restore the page to it's status quo. I would do so, asking it not to be reverted. Zander reverted anyway, and after another terse interaction, I moved to nominate the article for deletion, finding with the conflicting views of what Unrealized meant, it was too open ended and led to these lists being essentially trivia. Since then, Zander has elected to take an antagonistic approach towards me, making swipes they openly admit add nothing to the discussion threads they're added to, and now that I am putting said comments behind collapsable tables for being offtopic, Zander is now doing the editing equivalent of mockingly repeating me, with edits such as this and this.

    This editor displays no interest in conducting themselves cordially or cooperatively on this website. Rusted AutoParts 23:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

    I've given them a warning for canvassing: - The Bushranger One ping only 04:08, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    And more personal attacks here - The Bushranger One ping only 05:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    And they appear to be continuing editing while ignoring here. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This feels par for the course for Zander frankly. As noted with the bit about Zander reverting after an explicit edit summary saying not to and there being two days worth of me saying that edit would be made and they made no objections until the move was made. They disengaged from discussion but only re-engaged when the situation changed to their disliking. Rusted AutoParts 02:07, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    SPA User:Tikitorch2 back at it on Martin Kulldorff

    Hi, all, I'd like some assistance with the SPA User:Tikitorch2, who's been POV pushing on the Martin Kulldorff article since June. A quick view of their extremely short edit history shows that their sole focus is on pushing a vaccine-denialist POV on that and similar COVID-related topics. Started out on the talk page and BLPN, but now they've graduated to edit-warring on the article itself; they were active in June, made a single related edit in October, but now they appear to be back at it. They've already been notified about the CTOP status of COVID-19, and have received an edit-warring warning--to which they were less than receptive. Would appreciate a more permanent resolution, either a COVID-19 topic ban or just an indef considering their SPA status, so they don't just go back into hibernation and then turn up again like a bad penny. (And yeah, given this context, I don't love the implications of the username "Tikitorch2", either.) Thanks, Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 05:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:Michael.C.Wright? 173.22.12.194 (talk) 06:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
     Looks like a duck to me. I'm sending this to SPI. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    SPI says unrelated, so might just be generic disruption. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    What are you implying with regard to my username? My edit history has been limited to trying to correct two red flags that stood out so much that I followed the citations when I was searching these scientists who were in the news for censorship. It has been enlightening learning how wikipedia selectively chooses secondary sources but discourages the use of primary sources to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible.
    For my two attempted contributions to Misplaced Pages, the two red flags were pretty dramatic to prompt me to check out the citations--Sunetra Gupta's article implied more than 1 in 1000 people in England died from Covid in spring 2020 in an effort to discredit her, which was trivially easy to google as untrue. I corrected that without really changing the overall narrative. The article for Martin Kulldorff...I would probably not have spent time looking at the sources or realized how unscientific Kulldorff's critics were had there not been such superfluous "Wikivoice" editorializing and synthesizing suggesting Kulldorff lied in an essay to the public. Tikitorch2 (talk) 06:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Primary sources are not to be used for anything but simple facts about a subject. They absolutely are not to be used to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible because that is original research. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Not sure why you felt the need to repeat what I said. Maybe I am the sock puppeteer! Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    What I am implying is that such a username in the context of an account pushing COVID-denialist rhetoric that flies in the face of the sources and Misplaced Pages policy is not an accident. Anyway, this editor continues to be a drain of editor time and attention. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Ah an absurd, convoluted, and contrived personal attack. Assuming anyone but you knew tiki torches were present at a political event where someone was killed, why would I choose my username based on that? Tikitorches provide light, warmth, and keep the mosquitos away. I guess its not surprising an editor named writ keeper attacks the editor rather than effectively debating the subject of the edit. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Even if it was a personal attack, making one back isn't going to fly here. Knock it off. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    User:Tikitorch2, your edits are being examined at ANI. This is not a pleasant experience, I'll admit. So, it's best for you not to dig yourself into a hole. I know the instinct is to defend yourself but it doesn't help your situation to come out swinging. It's probably to your benefit to address any concerns that have been raised and say no more than that. Liz 04:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    User talk:International Space Station0

    Just officially closing this discussion as the account involved has been globally blocked. If an editor has Spore on your Watchlist and you see this occurring again, contact your local administrator. Liz 06:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    This user made 500 edits to their user page which were all completely useless (Misplaced Pages:Gaming the system to inflate their edit count) and then once receiving extended-confirmed permissions vandalized Spore (2008 video game) by copypasting another article. Their user page shows them editing and counting to 500. jolielover♥talk 04:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    It's a WP:DUCK, and I just reported to AIV. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 04:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Would it be possible to put up some kind of filter to alert for this? Something that…say…catches when more than 25 edits are made in a single space (user space for example) or something that would trip if the edits added less than 5 characters consistently? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1011:B32F:11B9:7980:86CC:720C:8B57 (talk) 05:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    There is a filter for this. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:AbuseLog&wpSearchUser=International+Space+Station0&offset=20241222044736, "New account unusual activity" covers exactly this. win8x (talk) 05:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Disruptive editor on When the Pawn...

    User User:Longislandtea has repeatedly removed reliably sourced refs to the genres infobox by removing alternative pop simply because they don't believe it to be correct as the ref is "new" and that the artist isn't that genre. I had sent them two warnings now and also explained that's not how this works, so they decided to add more genres with refs that don't even mention the genres they included. I do not believe this editor is going to cooperate. Pillowdelight (talk) 08:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:Pillowdelight changed the genre list of When the Pawn... which originally had been a variation of certain genres: Art pop, jazz rock, art rock, alternative rock, jazz pop, chamber pop, all of which are somewhat accurate and agreed upon by various editors of this page over many years. It was changed to just Alt pop, a genre that is used to describe the newer sounds of pop in the early 2010s with Lorde, Sky Ferreira and Lana del rey. It is not a genre that fits the album hence it has never before user:Pillowdelight been described as such beyond what her poor source says, a Fiona Apple revisit (that is not even about When the pawn.. specifically) from a new, small and virtually unheard of web magazine. Sources such as Rateyourmusic, allmusic and Pitchfork are far more accurate and robust and that's why this album has never been described as alt pop. That genre did not exist at the time of the release of the album. The source needs to be accurate, it is not. It's not an album review, it is a fluff article about Fiona Apple by a small web magazine. It's not even about When the pawn... specifically, it makes no sense. I think the other editors agree, it is inaccurate.
    Allmusic and pitchfork are far better sources. I have added both as sources. I didn't change the genre list, I simply changed it back to the genre list that had stood there the longest before user:Pillowdelight changed it a few months ago for the first time, having never touched this page before yet complaining about other editors. Longislandtea (talk) 18:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Longislandtea: I removed the genres because they're unsourced, which I stated in many edit summaries you keep reverting, as well as on your talk page. It doesn't matter that just because you believe a source another user added calling the album alternative pop is incorrect and unreliable because it's "new, small and virtually unheard of" is a ridiculously excuse. Read Template:Infobox album it states — genres must be stated and referenced in the body of the article; personal opinions or original research must not be included. The sources you have added specifically from Pitchfork don't state the genres you've listed. Pillowdelight (talk) 20:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Sources need to be legitimate and relevant. Your source is not relevant and it is disputed. Pitchfork is added because they describe the album as an alternative album several times in the review and the genre category is ROCK. What is alternative and rock? Alternative rock. That is how the album was marketed. You can't cherrypick a single article to make a case for a genre that the album absolutely is not in. I will remove the Pitchfork source, that's fine. There's numerous ones including from Allmusic that clearly state that it is an alternative rock album. The album was even added to Misplaced Pages's page for alt rock albums ages ago. This is very uncontroversial. Just having alternative rock is also lacking; jazz fusion, art pop (the album is already added on the wikipedia page for art pop albums) and art rock are accurate too and have been there for ages but alas! Let's get rid of it all to only serve your opinion. Numerous albums have unsourced genres might I add, but the vast of amount of editors agree to it because they know these accurately describe the album, these are the scenes that the album and artist comes from and sourcing for genres can often times be lacking. In that case, rather than trying to look for BAD sources, it's better to agree with the consensus. In our case, we do have sources. Rateyourmusic has been used as a source for adding art pop, alternative rock, jazz pop, fusion, art rock and chamber pop as genres before. Longislandtea (talk) 20:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Here's the page for what is considered acceptable sources Misplaced Pages:Acceptable sources (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs).
    Relevance. Sources must be relevant--there must be some reason for the reader to care about what the author has to say. For example, the opinion of a random individual on the presidency of George W. Bush, as published in a letter to the editor of a major newspaper, is not relevant; and thus should not be included--even though it is published, traceable to its author, and given in a reputable publication. Relevance can be imputed several ways--through explicit personal knowledge, through subject-matter authority, through general notability of the author, through demonstrable correlation with the opinion(s) of a large group of people, etc.
    A large group of people, the editors of When the Pawn...'s page throughout the years, thousands of people on music reviewing sites and numerous music journalists from legitimate publications do not agree with what this one article you cherrypicked states.
    Note that this policy is the minimum standard for inclusion as a reference in Misplaced Pages. Sources may meet this standard and still not be authoritative, reliable, accurate, free from bias, or undisputed. Sources which meet this minimum standard but which fail to meet stricter standards may be used, but should be used with caution. In particular, such sources should be explicitly attributed to their author(s) or publisher(s) in an article's prose (rather than being presented as fact with the author only given in the notes), and disputes considering the source's veracity should be described.
    Meaning you can't just add any genre because some random source says it when it goes against larger and more reliable sources as well as it is controversial.
    Thank you and please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand. Longislandtea (talk) 21:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    WP:NOTVAND. Note that accusing editors of vandalism when they are not, in fact, vandalising can be considered a personal attack, so I'd suggest you strike that comment. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Okay, I strike. Longislandtea (talk) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    You didn't actually strike any comments. To do so, do this <s>Comment</s> which will make it look like this Comment. Liz 22:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand. Longislandtea (talk) 22:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Longislandtea: How is the source considered not relevant and where was this dispute? AllMusic does not call the album alternative rock at all within its article. Rate Your Music is also not a source it's user generated which is against Misplaced Pages. I really wish an admin would comment on this because this is getting absolutely nowhere. Pillowdelight (talk) 21:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Here's another source describing it as an alternative rock and jazz fusion album
    https://www.the-solute.com/the-solute-record-club-fiona-apple-when-the-pawn/
    Alt pop is not accurate. If you're so adamant about alt pop, please argue why. It is completely inaccurate and you have one singular source over music journalists and music sites. Allmusic does categorize it as alternative rock, Pitchfork has categorized it as rock since 1999 of its release. There was NO Alt-pop at the time. It still isn't. These are different genres. Art pop is not Alt pop. You edited the page one time in October 2024 only to get rid of the genre list that editors agreed upon to add Alt pop which makes no sense whatsoever. Longislandtea (talk) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have now added a new source to the genre list. If you have any problems with the new source, tell me. But it's much more accurate this way. It's still sad to see the whole genre list that was originally there, so much more descriptive and fitting, hacked away but oh well. Longislandtea (talk) 21:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Pitchfork's categorizations mean basically nothing. They have ten categories, one of which is "Pop/R&B", and another of which is "Global". By the way, you should just stop caring about this, because sources misclassify genres of music chronically and everywhere you look. Take your passion to RateYourMusic. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    All of this discussion should be taking place on the article's talk page (which neither editor has used). Schazjmd (talk) 21:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Schazjmd: I'm awaiting for an admin to respond. This conversation is getting nowhere hence the reason why I brought it here in the first place. I've tried to explain to the user on their talk page along with this entire thread and it's getting nowhere. @The Bushranger: you left a comment but could you please share your opinion on the dispute? Or possibly ping an admin who's familiar with music if this isn't your area of familiarity? Pillowdelight (talk) 21:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    There was no reason to bring this conversation here. I talked to you directly but go no real reply or any arguments despite adding sources and explaining why it's not an Alt pop album. I've explained to you well enough. Please stop trying to get admins to ban me simply because I (and other editors) recognize that the genre list that you got rid of was far more fitting. There's a new genre list now with sources but it is not Alt-pop. The album was already added to the wikipedia album pages for Alternative rock and art pop. I'm familiar with these genres and Fiona Apple specifically to know that it's accurate hence why the genre list has been that way for years. If you're adamant about sources, there is a source. Accusing me of not sourcing should be considered a false accusation at this point. Not all sources are equal either and I've tried explaining that to you. Longislandtea (talk) 21:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Pillowdelight, you were given good advice which is to have this discussion on the article talk page which neither editor has posted at yet. This is a content dispute. If no action has been taken yet by an administrator, it's likely because they don't agree with your statement that action needs to be taken. Liz 22:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Okay, will do. Thank you Liz. Pillowdelight (talk) 22:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    Irrelevant sources and unnecessary changes to genre list on When the Pawn... (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

    On October 22 2024, User:Pillowdelight (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) changed the genre list that has stood in place for years and has been a variation of the same variety of genres: Art pop, art rock, jazz, alternative rock, jazz rock, chamber pop and jazz pop. Across the biggest music sites, this is what the album is described as. The user changed it to Alt pop using a single irrelevant and unreliable source. The album is not described as such anywhere else. The user is going against the general consensus. Sources have now been added to the genre list and I don't feel as though that would mean I'm breaking any rules. The user is threatening to get another editor banned because they're uncooperative with how us other editors feel the genre list should look like. It's an album that has been categorized as rock by Pitchfork at the time of its release and was added to rock charts when released too. Here's how the genre list has looked over a long period of time, without much controversy from editors not readers: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1178937091 from 2023

    https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1049316366 from 2021

    Thank you. Longislandtea (talk) 19:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    Why do people have to argue about what genre music is rather than just listening to it, and hopefully enjoying it? Phil Bridger (talk) 19:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    The genre list was fine and accurate and uncontroversial until this user decided to remove the entire thing. It's important that the genre list is accurate. People find albums through genres. There's other reasons as well. Longislandtea (talk) 20:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    This is neither here nor there, but I thought albums are generally sorted in alphabetical order by band name or the musician's last name.
    Please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or my information is incomplete. Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 22:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I was trying to explain the important of listing genres accurately. If you go to a record store then yes, albums are listed in alphabetical order. But they're still put in categories of genres. Longislandtea (talk) 22:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    If we were going to list musical genres "accurately," we wouldn't bother at all. Except in very broad strokes ("rock," "punk," "Baroque," etc), so many of these horribly subjective "genres" are made up by bored media writers and bands that hate the notion of being The Same As Everyone Else. Get ten people to listen to ten different tracks of heavy metal, and you won't get as many as a third of them agreeing on any of them on the doom/grudge/dark/death/Goth/Viking/sludge/*-grind/*-core/etc etc etc spectrum. Beyond that, arguing whether any given artist is "that genre" is very highly subjective. (Hell, I've sung Baroque, classical, folk, rock, ethnic, shape note, so many genres I can't readily count.) Ravenswing 15:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Multiple users breaking 3RR on Gilman School article

    Two users are actively engaged in an ongoing edit war on Gilman School, with both Counterfeit_Purses (talk · contribs · logs · block log) breaking 3RR 1, 2, 3, 4 and Statistical_Infighting (talk · contribs · logs · block log) being right at 3 Reverts 1, 2, 3.

    This seems to go back to December 9th, with the first editor (Counterfeit) removing it here and here, again on the 17th, 18th, and then being at the above today.

    Awshort (talk)

    Counterfeit Purses, please be aware that the Luigi Mangione article was kept in a recent Articles for Deletion debate, so the consensus of the community is that he is notable. Edit warring to keep his name off the alumni list is a really bad idea. Cullen328 (talk) 20:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Cullen328 No problem, I've already given up. I would argue that WP:NOTNEWS applies here, but there's no sense in pushing against the tide. If you're content to have the lede section of Gilman School include "prominent graduates including "alleged murderer Luigi Mangione", I guess that's fine. It seems to be an unusual thing to include and an obvious case of undue weight given to something that is in the news at the moment. Perhaps someone should start a Wikiproject to add famous murderers to the ledes of other schools? Counterfeit Purses (talk) 22:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Counterfeit Purses, in my view, WP:NOTNEWS is among our most misunderstood policy documents. It begins In principle, all Misplaced Pages articles should contain up-to-date information. Editors are also encouraged to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events. I believe that Mangione is notable, the evolving article is acceptable, and his name belongs in the alumni list. Many, many "bad people" are listed as alumni in countless school articles, and it is not at all unusual. The only unusual thing here is that the lead of this particular school article lists alumni, and so I have removed them from the lead. Cullen328 (talk) 01:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm glad that misunderstanding WP:NOTNEWS is so common because I am going to continue to misunderstand it. I see that Liz removed Luigi Mangione from the lede before you removed the rest of the list. Acknowledging again that I have given up hope that Mangione will be removed from this article, let me ask you what you think the purpose of these alumni lists is? Including Mangione is an editorial decision. We don't include all notable alumni in these lists, so why should we include Mangione, and why now? It's too soon to know if he will have lasting relevance. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 04:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    We don't include all notable alumni in these lists Why not? If someone is Wikinotable and went to a Wikinotable school, then they belong in the "Notable alumni" section of that school's page, Q.E.D. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    @The Bushranger I'm not saying "we shouldn't", I'm saying "we don't". We don't include every notable alumnus in these lists, nor should we because it would lead to long, unhelpful lists stuck in the middle of articles about the schools. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 04:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    If an alumni list bloats an article, it can be split out. See Category:Lists of people by school affiliation. 11:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC) (Oops, signing) Narky Blert (talk) 16:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Of course that's always an option, but what I am saying is that it isn't desirable to have every alumnus listed in an article for a school. Ideally, it would be a selection of alumni who have made significant achievements in their field. Otherwise, it's just trivia. Am I wrong? Counterfeit Purses (talk) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes. You're making a value judgment that some alumni (with articles, else they most definitely should not be included) are more notable than others. That is WP:OR. Narky Blert (talk) 20:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, that's called editorial judgment. Just like deciding not to include every known fact about something in an article. At some point, it is just trivia. Misplaced Pages is not a database. That info would probably be welcome over on Wikidata, which is a database. Alternatively, someone could just add Category:Gilman School alumni (in this case). Counterfeit Purses (talk) 20:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    And a new user, who doesn't understand categories and has no idea Wikidata exists, is relying on the list on the page. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Vandal encounter

    This IP seems to be a vandal who seems to be ready to start an edit war. I have reverted their disruptive edits, and they have begun to add them back.

    diffs:

    I would have put this at AIV, but I have no clue how to edit source. Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 23:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

     Not done - Not an admin - I hate to be that person but unfortunately you've not sufficiently warned them, They've only received one warning and their edits aren't gross vandalism so this would only be declined by an admin anyway, If they continue I'll report them to AIV, Thanks, –Davey2010 23:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Ah, I see. Thank you! This has been noted for the future. Thank you, again! Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 23:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    You're welcome, Happy editing, Thanks, –Davey2010 23:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:Glenn103

    Glenn103 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been mass creating unsourced stubs about Cyrillic letters, most of which have been draftified. They've also disruptively edited in the past, such as: ''']''' (talk • contribs) 01:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Most of these pages don't even make any sense (eg.: Draft:Yery with tilde). The user also ignores any notice about his articles being moved to draftspace by simply recreating duplicates of them (eg.: Draft:Tse with caron & Tse with caron). Immediate action may be needed. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 07:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Given a uw-create4im with directions to come here, let's see what happens. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    They've continued editing, this time adding infoboxes to the articles, so I don't think the warning worked... ''']''' (talk • contribs) 08:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have blocked them from article space and page moves, and will leave note on talk page to come here. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 15:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Honestly, this almost feels like trolling. Their basic procedure seems to be: pick a random Cyrillic letter. Combine it with a random diacritic. Write a short stub on the combination, saying effectively "this letter combination is not used anywhere." The occasional historical mentions ("this combination was used in such-and-such obscure Siberian language") are completely unsourced, of course. (Everything is unsourced.) Oddwood (talk) 04:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Excuse me for detracting from the report, but this was your 4th edit, your last edit was in January 2016... how have you found yourself here of all places?
    I mean you might have a point, but wow. – 2804:F1...57:88CF (::/32) (talk) 04:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Similar behavior to PickleMan500 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) and other socks puppeted by Abrown1019 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki), which also made tons of drafts on Cyrillic characters that cited few sources (and none with in-depth coverage). Most drafts have been WP:G5'd, of course, so only those with admin perms can verify the deleted contribs. Since these socks have been banned (WP:3X), I haven't notified them of this discussion. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 17:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Good catch, and looking at the contribution histories it  Looks like a duck to me. Changing the block to indef as a sock accordingly. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:22, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    North Korean involvement in Russian-Ukraine war discussion

    The inclusion of North Korea as a belligerent in the infobox for the "Russian invasion of Ukraine" article has been a point of extensive and protracted discussion since September. A formal Request for Comment (RfC) on this matter ran for several weeks and was closed with a clear consensus to include North Korea as a combatant based on reliable sources and expert analysis. However, despite the closure, the discussion has continued unabated across multiple threads, with certain editors repeatedly rehashing resolved points and questioning the validity of reliable sources, leading to significant disruption.

    Key Points:

    1. Prolonged Discussions and RfC Closure:
      • The RfC on North Korea's inclusion was conducted thoroughly, with a wide range of arguments presented by both sides.
      • The closing administrator, S Marshall, determined there was a clear consensus to include North Korea as a belligerent based on reliable sources and the strength of arguments.
      • The close explicitly allowed for reevaluation if new battlefield events or sources emerged, but no substantial new evidence has invalidated the prior consensus.
    2. Ongoing Disruption:
      • Despite the RfC's resolution, the same arguments are being repeated across multiple threads, often by the same editors.
      • This behavior includes undermining reliable sources, misrepresenting their content, and insisting on a higher standard of verification (e.g., requiring firsthand evidence of North Korean combat, which is unreasonable given the context).
    3. Reliable Sources Confirming North Korean Involvement:
      • Multiple reputable outlets, including the BBC, Reuters, and Pentagon statements, confirm North Korean military involvement and casualties in the conflict.
      • Experts from institutions like Chatham House and RUSI have explicitly stated North Korea's role in combat, aligning with the community's decision.
    4. Impact on the Community:
      • The continued disruption consumes editor time and resources, detracting from the article's improvement.
      • These actions disregard Misplaced Pages's consensus-building principles and guidelines for resolving disputes. This dispute has been ongoing for months, with multiple threads being opened and closed on the same topic.

    Request for Administrative Action:

    I respectfully request that administrators address the following issues:

    1. Enforce the consensus reached in the closed RfC, as no new evidence significantly alters the previous conclusions.
    2. Discourage editors from rehashing resolved discussions, particularly when arguments have been repeatedly addressed and dismissed.
    3. Consider imposing a topic ban or other appropriate measures on editors who persist in disrupting the article with repetitive or bad-faith arguments.

    This matter has been discussed exhaustively, and it is essential to prioritize Misplaced Pages's goals of maintaining a high-quality, well-sourced, and consensus-driven encyclopedia. Thank you for your attention to this matter. UPDATE: I just noticed that North Korea was removed as a belligerent and added to the 'supported by' section, completely violating the consensus. Rc2barrington (talk) 08:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Since this report isn't really about an incident and your request is directed towards admins, I think this complaint would be better placed at WP:AN rather than ANI. It will also need more specifics, which articles, which edits, which editors. You'll need to provide that. I also question whether or not these are content standards that the community can't handle on their own. Liz 09:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I was going to post it at WP:AN but it said: "This noticeboard is for issues affecting administrators generally – announcements, notifications, information, and other matters of general administrator interest.
    If your post is about a specific problem you have (a dispute, user, help request, or other narrow issue needing an administrator), you should post it at the Administrators' noticeboard for incidents (ANI) instead. Thank you."
    I posted it on ANI beecause my specific problem was this dispute Rc2barrington (talk) 12:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The original post in this thread appears to resemble LLM output. GPTzero confirms this impression, rating text as "99% probability AI generated". Using AI to generate ANI submissions is highly inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 18:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Even when a message appears to be AI-generated, I think it is worth considering whether or not it is pointing out an actual problem. I think editors might be ignoring the results of an RFC, I just don't think asking for administrators to monitor a subject area, without identifying specific articles, is a feasible solution. It does seem like, possibly, a point that could come up in a complaint at AE regarding the Ukraine CTOP area. Liz 19:55, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I had a peek and it's a messy RfC and, as is generally the case with a messy RfC had a very involved closure message which seems to reflect that the closer felt constrained by the framing of the RfC. I didn't see any immediate indication in the edit history that anyone had tried to implement the RfC result and been rebuffed (although I might have missed it). So there's some smoke here but, I think, not a ton of fire. Simonm223 (talk) 20:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Liz, I don't disagree but I'm not at all convinced that use of AI is a positive contribution to CTOP areas. Axad12 (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    It was written with AI assistance. Not all AI. ai detectors aren’t considered reliable, because you can put the U.S. constitution through one and it says 100% AI generated. Regardless, whether it’s AI or not has nothing to do with the topic. It’s just that there’a been so many discussions and when I checked the info box it said ‘supported by”, violating the consensus of the RFC Rc2barrington (talk) 12:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I think the underlying issue here is that if you use AI to generate text which looks like obvious AI output then readers will wonder "does the end user even have sufficient English to understand what the AI has generated for them?" and "did the end user understand the material prior to deciding to employ AI?". Thus if a user is fluent in English, as you obviously are, it will always be better to communicate in your own voice.
    At the end of the day, a user making a valid point in their own voice is generally speaking going to be taken more seriously than a user employing LLM output.
    There are plenty of other reasons for users not to employ AI (see the recent thread here for extensive coverage) but the argument above seems like a good practical reason for fluent English speakers to always prefer using their own voice.
    You will see from the recent thread that many users here are vehemently against AI use. Axad12 (talk) 15:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I understood the material very well, its not like I just used 100% AI out of nowhere. I know the context. I have been involved in this discussion since September. Rc2barrington (talk) 16:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    It's a respect thing. It's disrespectful of other editors to make them read chatbot output rather than your words. Simonm223 (talk) 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Rc2barrington's user page says This user believes in the bright future AI and robotics will bring, so there's probably no point in arguing here. However, I simply observe that in any kind of discussion where you're trying to convince other people, don't use a method that aggravates a significant number of readers (probably a significant majority of readers). It really is that simple. Axad12 (talk) 19:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Putting the use of LLM aside, however you compose your message you should comply with the basics of ANI. This includes not making allegations without supplying evidence. This would normally be in the form of diffs but in this case just links might be fine. But User:Rc2barrington has provided none.

    Probably because this is because their initial complaint appears to be unsupported by what's actually happening. They claimed "Despite the RfC's resolution, the same arguments are being repeated across multiple threads, often by the same editor". But where is this? I visited the talk page, and what I see is here Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#Post RFC discussion there was a request for clarification from the closer, something which is perfectly reasonably and which the closer followed up on. The OP then offered an interjection which frankly seemed unnecessary. There was then a very brief forumish discussion. To be clear, AFAICT no one in the follow up discussion was suggesting any changes to the article. So while it wasn't he most helpful thing as with any forumish discussion; it's hardly causing that much disruption especially since it seems to have quickly ended and also cannot be called "the same arguments" since there was no argument. No one in that discussion was actually suggesting changing the article.

    Then there is Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#North Korea RFC aftermath discussion. There was again some forumish discussion in this thread which again isn't helpful but wasn't that long. But there was also discussion about other things like the name of the article and whether to restructure it. To be clear, this isn't something which was resolve in the RfC. In fact, the closer specifically mention possible future issues in a non close comment.

    Next we see Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#Follow up to the previous discussion (Request for comment, can we add North Korea as a belligerent?). Again the main focus of the discussion is in how to handle stuff which wasn't dealt with in the RfC. There is a total of 2 short comments in that thread which were disputing the RfC which is unfortunate but hardly something to worry ANI about.

    Next there is Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#Can we add a Supported by section for Ukraine in the infobox?. DPRK was briefly mentioned there but only in relation to a suggestion to change the infobox for other countries. No part of that discussion can IMO be said to be disputing the DPRK RfC. Next we have Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#Remove Belarus from the infobox. Again DPRK was briefly mention but only in relation to other countries. No part of that discussion can be said to be disputing the RfC. AFAICT, the only threads or comments removed from the talk page since the closure of the RfC was by automated archival. The only threads which seem to be post close are on Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 20 and none of them seem to deal with North Korea.

    So at least on the article talk page I don't see what the OP has said is happening. The tiny amount of challenging of the RfC is definitely not something ANI needs to worry about. Even the other forumish or otherwise unproductive comments aren't at a level that IMO warrants any action IMO. If this is happening somewhere else, this is even more reason why the OP needed to provide us some evidence rather than a long comment without anything concrete, however they composed it.

    Nil Einne (talk) 10:15, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    Concern About a New Contributor

    Suspected editor was indeed a sock. Unnecessary drama created by all-too zealous reporting--let this be the end of it. Drmies (talk) 21:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Kriji Sehamati (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Dear Wikipedians,

    I hope you’re doing well. I wanted to inform you about a new contributor @Kriji Sehamati, despite lacking experience, has repeatedly attempted to vandalize multiple articles. These articles were properly aligned with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines and reviewed by experienced contributors, but he/she seemed unwilling to understand or respect their adherence to the policies.

    I believe your experience could help address this situation effectively.

    Looking forward to your advice on how to proceed.

    Thankyou! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 15:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    "Vandalize" is a very loaded word here with a specific meaning. As far as I can tell, what they've done is nominate 4 articles for deletion, and your response has been to accuse them of vandalism, ignoring dispute resolution procedures and making personal attacks – none of which I can see at a glance through their contributions.
    Perhaps if you supplied evidence of this behaviour, someone would be able to help? If your issue is that they've nominated 4 articles of which you are a major contributor and are doing so by going through your contributions in order to find articles to nominate for deletion with specious reasons, then this board would be the place to come. If not, then making your arguments for keeping the articles on the AfDs in question would be your best bet.
    By the way is forum shopping. Stop that. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    (ec) This is an odd one. As S-Aura failed to provide diffs, I looked at Kriji Sehamati's contribution history. New account (9 Dec) began editing today, created two drafts and made a bunch of edits to those. Then began adding COI tags to articles S-Aura wrote, nominated those articles for deletion, and then left a possible UPE template on S-Aura's talk page. Really seems to be something weird going on here between those two. (In addition to opening this ANI thread, S-Aura asked for help with basically the same message on the talk pages of Ipigott, Ryan shell, CFA, and BusterD, and S-Aura opened same complaint at AN.) Schazjmd (talk) 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I am concerned that User:Kriji_Sehamati’s actions, including unjustified deletion nominations and spamming, are disruptive and violate Misplaced Pages’s guidelines.
    She seems to lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related WP:GNG and WP:NPOL. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 16:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    You were asked to provide diffs. You did, almost, here but then reverted yourself. Those diffs (well, the ones before those diffs) are just the other user nominating articles for deletion (which is allowed) or tagging them for what they believe to be conflict of interest edits (which is also allowed).
    Please provide some actual evidence that the other user is engaging in chronic, intractable behaviour, rather than just not editing how you would like them to. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Here are some diffs highlighting her problematic edits. However, I believe that many of her contributions may be in violation of Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. It appears she has specifically targeted me and added the COI tag multiple times to the same page. I would appreciate it if you could review her actions more thoroughly:
    •
    •
    •
    •
    and many more
    Thankyou! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 17:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    We wouldn't generally treat an AfD as vandalism. Simonm223 (talk) 17:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I understand your point about AfDs not generally being treated as vandalism. However, I noticed that the major contribution history of the user seems suspicious. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 17:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Not from where anybody else is standing so far. I get that you're upset to have four articles of yours nominated for deletion, and if you have any evidence at all that you are being deliberately targeted by the other editor, then people will very much act on that. Please provide it. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 17:58, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I am here to contribute and edit articles in accordance with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. However, today a new user targeted me and falsely blamed me for actions that are not accurate. I believe this is unfair and not in line with the collaborative nature of the platform. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Please provide evidence of this. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 18:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Please check! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The articles that have been nominated for deletion discussion have been reviewed by experienced contributors. These discussions involve articles about judges and lawyers, under WP:NPOL, a valid criterion according to Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. Therefore, the deletion decision was made after carefully reviewing these articles. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Honestly it looks like this user, rightly or wrongly, believes you have a conflict of interest and are acting on the basis of that assumption. I would suggest, if you don't have a CoI, talking to them about this and maybe asking why they've come to this conclusion. Simonm223 (talk) 18:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    They have just started targeting my contributions, and I tried to inform her about the situation. However, she is acting as if she knows everything about Misplaced Pages and is dismissing my concerns. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Kriji Sehamati: hasn't edited since their AfD spree earlier today, let's wait and see what their response here is when they return to editing. Schazjmd (talk) 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    • We need to stop focusing on the OP's calling this vandalism; it is not. I've changed the header to reflect that. That said, the new user's edits are problematic and merit scrutiny. As for the UPE stuff, I've removed that post from the OP's Talk page; it's nonsensical coming from a new user and does not merit a response.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    • It is, of course, not vandalism to nominate articles for AFD discussions as long as a legitimate deletion rationale is provided and the article hasn't just been discussed at a recent AFD. However, I don't think it's a good sign when a brand new editor claims to understand all of Misplaced Pages policies and whose first actions are to nominate articles at AFDs. They are almost never an actual new editor, especially when they know how to even set up an AFD or are familiar with using Twinkle on their first day of editing. Liz 19:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
      It seems that she is not new to Misplaced Pages and might be operating multiple accounts. It appears she has an issue with one of my contributions, as she created her account just 15 days ago, yet she already has a good understanding of tools like Twinkle and AfD procedures. This level of familiarity suggests prior experience on the platform. I am now requesting her account to be blocked as I am completely disturbed by her repeated allegations and disruptive behavior. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 11:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I am now genuinely confused—if all my contributions are not good, then why am I even here? Were the experienced editors who reviewed and approved these pages also mistaken? A newcomer, who joined just recently, is now disrupting and questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors. This situation is deeply discouraging. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 11:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Please resolve this situation—either block her for her disruptive behavior. How can i continue working under such constant targeting and stress ? 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 12:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      User:S-Aura, you seem to be making unsupported personal attacks against User:Kriji Sehamati. You should provide specific evidence of wrongdoing, including diffs, or your arguments here will fall on deaf ears (and bring consequences for you). Meanwhile, as a filer on ANI, you have brought all your own edits to close scrutiny by the community. You may have to face that smart people disagree, and this is how we sort disagreements out on English Misplaced Pages. You are not required to edit, but we encourage you to do so. Nobody is going to block Kriji Sehamati at this point, because you've given us no reason to do so. BusterD (talk) 12:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Meanwhile, in the last few minutes S-Aura has disruptively created a second thread about this exact issue on this same board, which was reverted by another editor. This is intentional disruption. BusterD (talk) 12:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      As to the question "Why am I here?", poets and artists have been trying to answer this question for eons. Epistemology is outside the scope of this board, but there are articles about it. Show up to edit if you want to, but expect disagreement from time to time. (That's actually a sound answer to any epistemology question as well.) BusterD (talk) 12:16, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Dear @BusterD,
      It means I have been proven wrong, and that user’s contributions have been more focused on me, which is quite insufficient to catch someone’s lie that she is pretending to be new, when in fact she is old.
      Also, I am not against AfD; I am simply expressing my opinion. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:12, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Could you please rephrase your point here? I don't understand. While it's okay to be suspicious that this editor is somehow socking or doing something else deceptive due to the familiarity, it seems unacceptable to deliberately accuse them of such repeatedly without firmer evidence. Remsense ‥ 论 13:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Dear @Remsense,
      I am not engaged in paid activities on Misplaced Pages, and she claimed that I am connected with the subject, who is a judge, lawyer, etc. You all should understand that this is not a trivial matter; justice is a very respected position. Making such allegations can escalate court cases. I would like to remind you of the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI case. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      One thing you need to understand immediately is you should never make another post that sounds vaguely like a legal threat, as you've just done above. Seriously. That intonation is seriously not helping us decide who's right or wrong here. Remsense ‥ 论 13:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Okay! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I will caution you that this is tiptoeing right up to the edge of WP:NLT and you'd be advised to avoid making legal threats. Simonm223 (talk) 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Dear @Simonm223,
      I am merely showing that she can potentially do something inappropriate. I am following the guidelines and not making any legal threats. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Accusing another editor of potentially making legal threats is not much better, when there is no concrete evidence that they would do so. Being interested in articles about judges does not suffice. Remsense ‥ 论 13:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      The page of Justice Subramonium Prasad, who had conducted over the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI court hearing, was also created by me. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      State plainly what the implication you are making here is, because what I'm hearing is "I'm familiar with people who have hit Misplaced Pages with a mallet in court before, and I can make sure it happens again". Remsense ‥ 论 13:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      This is becoming a rabbit hole. I urge you not to pursue the rabbit further. BusterD (talk) 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Good call, I'll retract the above. Remsense ‥ 论 13:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      No, that is not what I am implying. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      No one has said your contributions are not good. However, it should be noted that a draft being accepted at AfC or a new page having been patrolled does not guarantee greater scrutiny would not result in a valid AfD nomination. That said, echoing others here it's clear something problematic is up with this user's behavior. Remsense ‥ 论 12:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      You can't both criticize someone for lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related WP:GNG and WP:NPOL, and then argue that she is too familiar with the platform to be a newcomer for knowing how to file an AfD. I wouldn't be surprised if most people here knew how to file an AfD before knowing all 14 notability guidelines by heart. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      There are detailed instructions on filing an AfD that can be found by googling "how can I get a Misplaced Pages page deleted" - if somebody had some personal reason for wanting to have pages removed it doesn't strain credibility to think that's why they created a WP account and that they just followed the very clear instructions on the appropriate pages.
      In fact that might explain why some of the AfD filings were reasonable and some were, on their face, incorrectly filed. If you looked up the AfD process but not criteria that is the likely outcome. That's why I find the "new user files AfDs must be a sock" idea here somewhat uncompelling. Simonm223 (talk) 13:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • I believe we're entering boomerang territory at this point. Opinions? BusterD (talk) 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I think OP is upset that a cluster of their articles were put up at AfD. This in itself is understandable, but while there's reason to think there might be mischief by Kriji Sehamati, we don't have any real evidence of it. We either need the OP to make it clearer what misconduct, if any, has occurred, or they need to drop the stick. Remsense ‥ 论 13:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      The OP has been intentionally disruptive (by creating a new ANI thread which was reverted), and this thread is going nowhere. IMHO, there's nothing ANI can do here. Everything I'm reading about should be resolved at the page talk and user talk level, in my opinion. The AfDs are underway. If dispute resolution is needed, fine. Nobody is harming S-Aura. S-Aura can't come crying to ANI (or four random user talk pages like mine) anytime someone merely disagrees with them. BusterD (talk) 14:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I'd have said close with trout for all if not for creating the second thread at AN/I. Based on that I'd say the OP should be formally cautioned against such antics in the future. Simonm223 (talk) 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I should have added that I largely hold with Remsense in their position. BusterD (talk) 14:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      User:Kriji Sehamati‬ is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages, but we don’t have any evidence because understanding Misplaced Pages’s AfD process so quickly can be a bit challenging. I have no problem with AfD regarding my contributions, and it’s a good thing that experienced contributors are giving their feedback. If you believe that the kriji is 100% correct and her activity is not suspicious, then this discussion should be closed. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 14:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      You need to stop insisting this is definitely the case if you don't have any evidence for it, period. Remsense ‥ 论 14:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      S-Aura, how did you make the determination User:Kriji Sehamati‬ is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages? Please share your process. That's a personal attack, and requires proof to prevent you from being in violation of WP:NOPERSONALATTACKS. I've looked at the AfDs and they seem reasonable to me. When you've provided strong sources the article is being kept. So far the jury is out on the others. Both of you seem to be writing articles about obscure living persons who wouldn't normally (by my cursory reading) have a Misplaced Pages article about them because reliable sourcing is not readily found. When I see that, I must suspect COI or undeclared unpaid editing here, but nobody's admitting to it. BusterD (talk) 15:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      S-Aura's continuing to issue personal attacks makes it more difficult for us to just close this (without some form of consequence for the editor making unproven personal attacks after they've been warned repeatedly). BusterD (talk) 15:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I have made a level-four user talk page warning for the personal attack. FYI. We've been very nice about this up 'til now, but we need to stop being so kind. Doing foolish things has real world consequences. BusterD (talk) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Both editors' apparent use of AI is certainly disruptive. If it continues, it should lead to blocks. C F A 15:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      No personal hate intended, but I just found this and thought it would be worth checking. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      It would be nice if you could explain the significance for those who do not speak Hausa. Remsense ‥ 论 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      She had made contributions to pages in other languages a few months ago. I am attaching her contributions link. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 16:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      How does this constitute evidence of sockpuppetry if we aren't to know what exactly happened? There's a reason we don't just automatically block anybody who is blocked on another language wiki, and I looked through the edits some and didn't find anything outrageous that made it past the language barrier. Remsense ‥ 论 17:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I agree that it’s important to ensure we have solid evidence before making conclusions. I appreciate your perspective on not automatically blocking users based on blocks from other language wikis. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 17:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Please don't reply to me or others using ChatGPT. It is flat-out rude. Remsense ‥ 论 17:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Support BOOMERANG - I've been uninvoled and have mainly just been watching the back-and-forths, but the personal attacks and VESTED mindset, such as "questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors", concerns me. Not sure for how long, but I don't think anything longer than a months is appropriate given the circumstances. EF 15:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • This whole thread, but especially the 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC) comment, feels like the OP is just throwing literally everything at the wall to see what sticks. But, worse, what is being thrown at the wall lacks any significant body of evidence to support. I note that a personal attack warning has been given for the continued unfounded accusations being presented, which I think is a good move. I don't support a block at this point, although if I was the OP I would withdraw this complaint and/or drop the stick and walk away from this topic as a matter of urgency to avoid continuing to make the situation worse. Daniel (talk) 17:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Darkwarriorblake making aspersions

    The OP says they don't care any more which I'm reading as a withdrawal and the other party says they won't be responding again so I'm closing this discussion. My only comment is that both editors in this dispute should have brought this to the article talk page to talk this disagreement out. I don't know if the differences would be resolved but this is what we advise editors to do when their edits are reverted. Now I just have to get that scene in the movie out of my mind. Liz 05:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Postscript: Ah, someone just close this, I don't care any more.  — Hex • talk 22:56, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    I'm posting here after a particularly underwhelming interaction with an editor in the form of edit summaries. I'll need to provide the context of a brief content dispute which hopefully won't take too long and then get to the point. I'm not asking for anyone to take my side in the dispute.

    Trading Places is a widely acclaimed comedy film from 1983, which is also widely acknowledged to have problematic elements by modern standards, including a scene in which the villain of the piece, stuck in a gorilla costume, is locked in a cage with a real gorilla, which is implied to sexually penetrate him without his consent.

    The article states that G. Gordon Liddy demurred being cast in the role upon finding that out. The citation for this claim is a listicle on Indiewire, which contains the sentence

    Reportedly, Liddy was on board until he got to the part where Beeks becomes a gorilla’s mate.

    Reportedly by whom is not mentioned, let alone is there a direct quotation from Liddy. Plus as can be seen the words "becomes a gorilla's mate" are linked to a very poor quality, hand-held video of the scene in question playing on a television. This alone should be enough to raise serious questions about the use of this "source" in a featured article.

    The content dispute began when I changed it like this (diff) with the comment Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs:

    −Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla.+Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks is raped by a gorilla.

    This was reverted (diff) by Darkwarriorblake with the comment not what the source says.

    After thinking about it a moment I came to the conclusion described above about the quality of the source, and decided that it was better out than in, which is what I should have done in the first place.(diff)

    −...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks. Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla. Paul Gleason took the role;...+...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks with Paul Gleason eventually taking the role;...

    My accompanying comment was (a) That was the source's voice, not Liddy's. It's called a euphemism. Demonstrable by how it links to a clip of the scene in which a man is raped by a gorilla. (b) Source says "reportedly" for this claim, without evidence. Poor quality source. Removing claim

    That was reverted by Darkwarriorblake (diff) with the comment Nothing wrong with Indiewire as a source, if there is I'd raise it at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. Until then, there's a talk page for you to use per WP:BRD. Your comments sound agenda driven and therefore not Neutral.

    This is where the reason for me to raise this at this board begins, because that's solidly an example of casting aspersions. It came on top of a revert which reintroduced a claim cited to a rumor in a blog post into a featured article, but that's really not my concern, because if the champions of the featured article process have decided that it's somehow acceptable for our "best" content then I'm just going to move on to something else rather than argue.

    There's one final back and forth which was enough to motivate me to post here. First, I reverted that revert (, my only time using the actual "Undo" button today), with this comment: a good source doesn't say "reportedly" (ie, spread a rumor), it specifies the origin of a fact. My only "agenda" is with a crap listicle being used as a reference, regardless of who published it. Take it to talk if you want to argue for the continued inclusion of a trash ref in a featured article, or source the claim properly yourself.

    This was reverted - again - by Darkwarriorblake (diff) with the comment How are you an admin? "rape played for laughs" is an agenda, this went through FA as is so WP:STATUSQUO and WP:BRD apply. You must go to the talk page, not I. I don't know if you're going through a bad time or something but this isn't how an admin should be acting or communicating with others, up to and including WP:EDITWARRING

    At this point it's gone firmly into the realm of knee-jerk reversions, because if Darkwarriorblake took the time to read the article which they've reverting changes to for years (is this ownership? Kind of feels that way), they would get down to the critical reassessment section. Which says "some critics have praised the film while highlighting elements that they believe aged poorly, including racial language, the use of blackface, and the implied rape of Beeks by a gorilla", cited to articles in four major publications. Or, you know, even search Google for "Trading Places gorilla rape".

    So anyhow regardless of whether the Indiewire source is deemed suitable or not, I'm just wondering what the feeling here is about someone making goofy assertions on the record that another editor has "an agenda" (what agenda could it be?) and may not be emotionally stable, which really doesn't feel like assuming good faith at all.  — Hex • talk 20:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Hrrm, this seems a bit excessive.
    • I've added a second source for the claim. Really this should've been the first option rather than removing the content.
    • The first summary was, as stated, "Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs". "Rape played for laughs" is a loaded comment and not something said in the article or the source text, so it's a personal opinion, it's not neutral, it's agenda-driven.
    • When this was reverted, the editor just removed the content entirely claiming IndieWire was unreliable. There is, as far as I'm aware, nothing wrong with Indiewire. I've since found a second source, the Telegraph, which is reliable per Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources.
    • The editor ignored WP: BRD when raised, and as an admin they should adhere to policy.
    • The editor states that they are an admin on their page. Assuming this is true, the aggressiveness of their edits, hyper focus on the single area, and use of words like "crap listicle" seemed out of line with what I, personally, would expect from an admin on Misplaced Pages, certainly someone who has been so for nearly two decades. Perhaps the edit summary wasn't the place to have that discussion but, as stated, they weren't adhering to WP: BRD to start a discussion, and in the interim the article needed putting back to the status quo.
    • I find accusations of OWNERSHIP often tend to come when people don't get their way. Which is fine. I have plenty of reversions on the page for people adding unsourced content and there are plenty of changes as well. I find someone removing sourced content and me putting the sourced content back to not really be something you can fling ownership at.
    • Within the context of the film, Beeks does become the romantic partner of the gorilla, it seemed more appropriate and encylcopedic text than just saying 'rape', and neither source I've added says that either.
    • Anyways, my edit history shows I'm a massive contributor and helper and it's nearly Xmas, and I don't feel like engaging with this any further, good luck Hex. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Of course you don't, having ignored the actual matter of your conduct that I'm raising here. Your comments about the content of the article are irrelevant.  — Hex • talk 20:43, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Hex's position is not wholly supported, although in the entire issue, their toolset is irrelevant. There was no incivility on either part, and an all-out edit war seems to have been averted.Fundamentally the change Hex wanted to make was pure OR; rape may have been intimated—or, as Hex themself admits, implied—but its never overtly stated and is a wholly loaded term. This is the interpretation of an editor, not of secondary sources. If there is a pron=blem with Indywire as a source—currently used in 1000s of articles—take it to WP:RSN. If it's disputed that it's a high quality source per WP:FA?, then take it to WT:FAC. Accusations of OWNership are as unhelpful—and as much an aspersion—as accusations of agenda-led editing. In fact, for OWNership, Hex should read the relevant policy: here, it is WP:FAOWN, which not only allows for careful stewardship of featured material, but requires significant changes to the consensus version to be discussed on talk; I don't suppose there's any suggestion that introducing rape—particularly "played for laughs"—wouldn't be a significant addition.Really though, this is an overblown content dispute which should have started with one revert each, and ended on the talk page. --SerialNumber54129 21:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
      "Never overtly stated... 'played for laughs' be a significant addition" - here's an interview with John Landis, the director.

      One of the executives was deeply appalled by a man being sexually molested by a gorilla. And I said you know, it's a joke and it goes by very quickly. But the first preview was very successful and it all went away.

      Feel free to amend the article on that basis. I'm certainly not interested in spending any more time on it.  — Hex • talk 22:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Followup

    I just want to say that, now that we've had an ANI thread on the subjeect of Gordon Liddy's feelings about portraying the romantic partner of a gorilla, I can die happy.

    While we're on the subject, our article on Liddy recites that Prior to his departure from the FBI in 1962, Liddy sought admission to various bars. I'm curious to know whether this is meant to imply that Liddy had a drinking problem, and whether this could have had any bearing on the whole gorilla romantic partner situation. EEng

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User Stationmanagerskidrow removing information on Radio Skid Row page

    User:Stationmanagerskidrow is repeatedly removing information about a recent incident involving a Jewish DJ at their station. They say that it is incorrect information, even though it is sourced. The name also states clearly that this is a company account. Lastly, they have continued this behavior even after being warned on their talk page. Pyramids09 (talk) 03:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    User is now editing using User:159.196.168.116 Pyramids09 (talk) 03:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This is a content dispute and the article is being actively edited by many different editors. However, no discussion about the disagreements has occurred on the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. Liz 04:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    That article probably should be speedied as an A7 for not containing any assertions of notability; which obscures that Stationmanagerskidrow appears to have been edit warring on it with an undisclosed COI, and presumably was WP:LOUTSOCKing as this IP, and if so violated 3RR as well. It's probably best for me not to take administrative action here tonight as I won't be around later/tomorrow to deal with any followups, but something should be done here beyond just saying "take it to the talk page." ⇒SWATJester 06:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The page was longer, but sourced (all but?) soley to the station's site and it's been trimmed down to what it is now. Given the repeated edit-warring by IPs I've semi-protected the page for two days for now. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    WP:USERNAME and WP:COI message added here. I'm just about to make myself thoroughly WP:INVOLVED by seeing what I can do about the Radio Skid Row article. Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 09:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Insults

    I'd like to report an incident related to this discussion. A person under IP already accused me of being "obsessed". Now someone (possibly the same person) suggests that I may need psychiatric help. Please also see this comment. I guess we can always agree to disagree with other people, but this is going a bit too far. Thank you. Psychloppos (talk) 09:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Hello, Psychloppos. What action are you seeking to happen here? Liz 09:42, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have no idea which actions are warranted here. Maybe an admin could leave a message to this IP and this registered user and remind them that they should assume good faith ? It would also be nice to remind them about Misplaced Pages:Civility and Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. Saying that I am "fuelled by an unhealthy obsession" or questioning my sanity do not seem to respect those guidelines. Psychloppos (talk) 09:52, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Nlkyair012 and LLM chatbots

    This editor has been constantly using AI chatbots to respond and write messages. They are a single purpose account for glorifying the Kamaria Ahir caste using unreliable WP:RAJ era sources, I and several other experienced editors have taken time and effort to respond to their endless queries and WP:SEALIONING generated using ChatGPT. They have posted AI generated walls of text on multiple noticeboards such as WP:RSN and WP:DRN and including here , accusing me of vandalism.

    Despite my repeated requests and even a final warning to them (including a request by @ActivelyDisinterested:) they are still continuing to do it. Their messages are repeating the same argument again and again and are frankly just hallucinations that bring up fictitious guidelines or misrepresent the existing ones. Several editors have told them that Raj era sources are not reliable yet they continue to ask for more evidence on why that is the case based on AI generated claims of supposed academic value or neutrality. This is getting very disruptive and taking up valuable contributor time to respond to their endless AI responses which take a few seconds to generate. I have alerted them about WP:GSCASTE and WP:ARBIPA, I would appreciate it if someone could enforce a restriction on this user from at minimum caste area. - Ratnahastin (talk) 13:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Hello @Ratnahastin,
    To start with I should admit that I am sorry for all the inconvenience that I may have caused as a result of my actions. It was never my intention to take people’s time or skew the conversation in a certain way. I appreciate the core idea to contribute the thoughts to the Wiki and share it borne in mind the overall rules and policies of this program.
    I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site. Even when I was using AI for the grammar check or, for instance, to elaborate on some point in the text, I saw to my mismanagement that over the process we probably confused the readers and repeated the same information and thoughts, which I would never wish to happen again. From now on I will ensure that in the future the input which I provide to wikipedia fits the Misplaced Pages standard and is more personal. I will also not write walls of text and will not make assertations that do not have substantiated evidence in sources.
    As for subjects that concern the Raj and the sources from this period and the discussions we have had it seems that I have gone too far in demanding clarification for the same thing. That being the case, with the understanding that the consensus will be acknowledged, I shall not be inclined to reopen this discussion unless new substantiated evidence is produced. I don’t want to prolong the conversation or bring any more stress.
    I will strive to learn from my experience to be more productive in my interactions going forward. If there are other limitations or additional rules to which I have to stick to, I will receive them with pleasure.
    In the same respect, let me specially apologize for the inconvenience and thank all of you for bearing with us. That was why I wanted to remind all of us that we can and should keep collectively improving Misplaced Pages as a resource. Nlkyair012 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This comment also has a typical LLM feel and contains meaningless statements such as "I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site" and differs substantially from your usual (non-AI) writing style, although GPTzero said this is human input. - Ratnahastin (talk) 13:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    It seems human in that it contains some composition and grammar errors that I don’t think an LLM would produce. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 13:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Thanks for the reply sir, I can't explain how frustrated I'm feeling from this morning which this user made me experience Nlkyair012 14:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The time when I messaged Vikram banafar I was casual not formal and second of all your saying doesn't prove anything "and differs substantially from your usual (non-AI) writing style" that's a straight up false accusation and utter nonsensical point and 3rd point being that GPTzero stated that this is a human input then that's an human input end of the question. Nlkyair012 14:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    No it's really not the end of the story if GPTZero says "likely human". In fact I'd actively discourage people depending on tools like GPTZero in favour of their human senses which are better at detecting LLM outputs than yet another computer program. And, frankly, what you're hearing from people here is we'd rather your casual, human, flaws-and-all style of writing over ChatGPT output "formal" report templates. They are doing the opposite of what you're looking for and have become disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 14:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Man you still wanna do this? @Zanahary also says this doesn't seems AI generated to him and he used his actual "Human senses" to lean that way Nlkyair012 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Admitting that you have used AI for writing your comments and then saying that you have not used AI is not going to help your case. - Ratnahastin (talk) 14:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    You know what I think this is getting to the WP:NOTHERE point. Having to tell somebody to have the basic respect of other editors to not subject them to text-walls of chatGPT garbage over and over again is a disruptive distraction from what we should all be doing. Simonm223 (talk) 14:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This ain't getting anywhere Nlkyair012 14:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I really don't understand the problem. Cuz I literally also said many where that yes I used AI but for expanding and grammar correction Nlkyair012 14:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    If this combative approach is your "casual" style, perhaps your use of AI and its over the top politeness was an attempt to mask it. In any case, I think you are not here for building an encyclopaedia but for caste glorification given your obsession with a certain sub-caste. - Ratnahastin (talk) 14:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    im not obsessed with a certain subcaste but am sure is obsessed with British Raj sources. Nlkyair012 14:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't think that's better. Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 15:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    If we just temporarily put aside the AI-generated comments, can Nlkyair012 accept the view of experienced editors on Raj era sources and not push any viewpoint on a particulary caste? Because, to be honest, editors who have done this in the past usually end up indefinitely blocked. There is a low tolderance here for "caste warriors". Liz 19:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Potential vandal trying to start edit war on the page for Frisch's.

    Page protected, and now this admin is flashing back to his youth going to Frisch's Big Boy in Tampa. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    This user keeps using IP addresses in order to revert creditable information about who makes their tartar sauce. Please look into this user. IP Addresses used were 67.80.16.30, 66.117.211.82, and 216.24.107.180. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JrStudios The Wikipedian (talk • contribs) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Courtesy link Frisch's. Knitsey (talk) 17:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This sounds a lot like the same edit warrer I dealt with on Redbox, down to the false accusations of vandalism, removal of sourced information, and apparent use of proxies (all the IPs geolocate to different places). I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same person. I've asked RFPP to intervene. wizzito | say hello! 21:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    NVM, checked MaxMind for geolocation and they all are in the same general area. wizzito | say hello! 21:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User:Nadeem asghar khan inaccurate edit summaries

    All but 2 of user's edit summaries are "Fixed Typo" when they are in fact partially updating statistical information on the page. Have left multiple messages/warnings on TP, with no response. Spike 'em (talk) 16:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Lil Dicky Semi-Protection

    WP:RFPP is thataway →. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Lil Dicky was semi-protected back in 2019. Now that five years have passed, could the semi-protection be lifted? 174.93.89.27 (talk) 16:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Ask at WP:RFPP EvergreenFir (talk) 16:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Request for Review of Neutrality and Repeated Actions

    This complaint has no merit and does not require administrative intervention.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Dear admin, I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to express my concern regarding Psycholoppos, who has repeatedly applied the neutrality dispute tag to content related to Randa Kassis. Despite previous clarifications, these actions suggest a potential bias, which could undermine the objectivity and integrity of the platform.

    I kindly request that you review this matter and take appropriate steps to ensure that all users adhere to neutrality standards. If possible, I would also appreciate guidance on how to address such situations constructively in the future.

    Thank you for your attention to this issue. Please feel free to reach out if further clarification is needed. Hazar HS (talk) 17:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    @Hazar Sam, whether the NPOV tag is needed or not should first be discussed on the article's talk page. Also, see the large notice at the top of this page: you are required to notify the editor you are reporting. Schazjmd (talk) 17:53, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The editor is also called Psychloppos, not Psycholoppos. I have notified them for the OP. – 2804:F1...26:F77C (::/32) (talk) 17:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I wouldn't give a chatbot-written thread the time of day. HS, we have less tolerance for AI-written arguments than the American court system. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 18:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Disruptive behavior from IP

    For the past month, 24.206.65.142 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been attempting to add misleading information to Boeing 777, specifically trying to use the unofficial "777-200LRF" designation beyond first mention in the relevant section and passing it off as official (, , , , , , , , , , ). Their behavior died down for a few weeks, but restarted several days ago (, ), including baseless claims that Fnlayson is "okay with it". They have been asked numerous times on their talk page to either stop or provide evidence of official use of the designation, but they have failed to do so and have continued their disruption. - ZLEA T\ 19:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    I forgot to mention that this user has used at least two other IPs; 24.206.75.140 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 24.206.65.150 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). 24.206.65.142 is the most recent to cause disruption. - ZLEA T\ 20:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    "777-200LRF" is not misleading, some cargo airlines do use that designation. Today I reverted to a previous version that User:Fnlayson was okay with . I feel that User:ZLEA is going overboard with charges of misinformation and disruptive editing. 24.206.65.142 (talk) 19:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    It is misleading to remove any mentions of it being unofficial. Boeing has never made a "777-200LRF", no aftermarket conversion has ever been offered under that name, nor has the FAA or any other regulatory agency ever certified such an aircraft. To pass such a designation off as official is by definition misleading and misinformation. Likewise, to continuously do so after you have been told to stop by multiple people and falsely claiming that others support your arguments is by definition disruptive. - ZLEA T\ 20:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Of note is the fact that this is not the first time the IP has claimed to have Fnlayson's support. They have been told before by Fnlayson not to assume support without a specific statement, yet it seems they've also ignored that. - ZLEA T\ 20:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Its not misinformation as here are the sources which use "777-200LRF", including GE Capital Aviation (the engine supplier for most Boeing 777) and Leeham News (to avoid confusion with the upcoming 777-8F). 24.206.65.142 (talk) 21:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have asked you for sources from either Boeing or the FAA, yet you still either refuse to do so or (more likely) cannot because they don't exist. Only Boeing and the FAA can designate factory-built Boeing aircraft. Airlines and misinformed news websites have no authority to do so, and any alternative names they use are purely unofficial and should not have anything more than a single brief mention in the appropriate article section. Your failure or refusal to get that after numerous people have told you is disruptive. - ZLEA T\ 22:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Relevant range is 24.206.64.0/20 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)), in case somebody needs it. wizzito | say hello! 21:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
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