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== Disruptive editing and WP:TALKNO by ] ==


The main issue with this editor at the moment is disruptive editing based on continuous abuse of ] and ]. Issues began when this editor . They did it and and .
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Instead of starting a discussion on the talk page of the article, the user came to ] to let me know of their opinion of my contributions. When I on the talk page of the relevant article, the user and according to their POV. When I let them know that this was highly inappropriate according to ], both and , they ] stating {{tq|ever since the stupid Misplaced Pages Dec. 2019 encryption protocol upgrade, to able to edit or view Misplaced Pages at all from my home computer, I have to use an indirect method which involves a non-fully-Unicode-compliant tool. I couldn't even really see your signature that way, and so didn't know to try to avoid changing it|q=y}}, which I had never heard of. In any case, they kept reverting the content supported by the reliable source, they also kept attempting to apply their POV to the discussion heading and and . I that I had and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, and they went ahead and .
== Reference desk problem and block ==
<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)</small>


:The other user in this case is ]? This looks like a content dispute over whether the article is on the English version of a German-Arabic dictionary or the dictionary itself. ] (]) 15:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
As some may remember, I have been working recently on the problem of the ], which as for some time been misused by a few users as a place for general discussion rather than its intended purpose. My first approach was to discuss the use of the reference desk, and appropriate ways of regulating it; these discussions (with some users) were extensive, and resulted in me writing out a personal plan for removing highly inappropriate comments and discussion from the reference desk: ]. Applying this procedure worked fine until last night, when I . I informed ]&nbsp;(] <small>•</small> ] <small>•</small> <span class="plainlinks" style="color:#002bb8"></span>) that I had done this, and he took exception. I spent a long period of time explaning why my actions follow from the spirit of Misplaced Pages policy and the purpose of the reference desk (see ]), but he repeatedly reverted my edits even after I made it clear that (in my best judgement) his reversions were disruptive. I therefore if he continued to disrupt the ref desk. He , so I blocked him for 12 hours to prevent further disruption.
::Yes the is indeed about ]. I see the content dispute as stemming from the fundamental conduct issue, which has manifested itself most egregiously with insisting on violating ] repeatedly even after I that I had and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, after which they went ahead and . ] (]) 16:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The heading dispute is between a date heading, and a descriptive heading? that's not really reformulating your entry. ] (]) 17:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
::::It's a conduct issue. ] (]) 19:58, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::But what conduct issue? TALKNO doesn't forbid changing headings. In fact the wider guideline makes it clear it's perfectly acceptable "{{tqi|Because threads are shared by multiple editors (regardless of how many have posted so far), no one, including the original poster, "owns" a talk page discussion or its heading. It is generally acceptable to change headings when a better heading is appropriate, e.g., one more accurately describing the content of the discussion or the issue discussed, less one-sided, more appropriate for accessibility reasons, etc. Whenever a change is likely to be controversial, avoid disputes by discussing a heading change with the editor who started the thread, if possible. It can also sometimes be appropriate to merge entire sections under one heading (often preserving the later one as a subheading) if their discussions are redundant.}}" To be blunt, if you don't want editors changing the headings of sections you start, don't use such terrible headings. I definitely recommend you stay away from ANI since changing headings is quite common here. ] (]) 06:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Actually I missed the signature issue. That's far more concerning unfortunately lost IMO partly because you concentrated on silly stuff. ] (]) 06:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::&lrm;إيان: I suggest you stop messing around with the section heading since it's a distraction which could easily lead to you being blocked. But if AnonMoos changes your signature again, report it and only that without silliness about section headings, mentioning that they've been warned about it before if needed. ] (]) 06:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)


I wrote a long and detailed explanation on his user talk page as to why the date-only header is basically useless in that context, but he's still for some peculiar reason fanatically determined to keep changing it back. Frankly, I've basically run out of good-faith reasons that make any sense -- except of course, his apparently unshakable belief that he has certain talk-page "rights", which according to Misplaced Pages guidelines he does '''not''' in fact have (outside of his own personal user talk page)... ] (]) 23:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
Thus I have failed in my original plan to improve the reference desk through discussion; several other admins have tried before me, and run out of patience rather faster than I did. In my best judgement, drawing a line in the sand and saying "some comments can be, and will be, removed to keep the page on topic" was the only remaining approach. When DirkvdM became stubborn on this point, I couldn't see a better option than to block for disruption. However, I have blocked a generally good contributor for restoring that he believes was legitimate content, and my actions should be reviewed. I would appreciate any comments. Thanks, ] 21:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC) (<span class="plainlinks">] (] • ] • <font color="002bb8"></font> • <font color="002bb8"></font> • <font color="002bb8"></font> • <font color="002bb8"></font>)</span>)


:{{replyto|AnonMoos}} I don't see a problem with changing the heading but why on earth did you change their signature multiple times ? That is indeed a clear violation of ] since the signature was perfectly valid per ]. In fact your change was far worse since it changed a perfectly valid signature which would take other editors to the contributor's talk page and user page into an invalid one which lead no where. If you're using some sort of plugin which does that, it's your responsibility to manage it better so it doesn't do that ever again especially if you're going to edit talk pages where it might be common. If you're doing that intentionally, I suggest you cut it out or expect to be indeffed. ] (]) 06:48, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
:I think the idea of removing comments by another editor is generally a bad thing, but in the case of the reference desk I would support your actions as it is very easy to get sidetracked with irrelevant things. In order to keep the place in order and useful, the desk must be kept on the point. Each question and topic on the desk should stay within its boundaries else people will not think the desk is actually any use.
::], this is not good to see. Don't rewrite or reformat other editor's signatures. There is no reason to be doing this unless you are trying to provoke the other editor. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
:In this case, removing DirkvdM's irrelevant and off-topic comment was appropriate and his trying to force it back on, regardless of the purpose of the page was disruptive. It is a case of using your common sense to prevent the page losing focus. -]<sup>]</sup> 21:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
::: For what it's worth, AnonMoos stated earlier that the changing of the signature was a unintentional technical issue, due to his use of some "non-standard tool" in accessing the internet . This seems plausible, as similar apparently unintentional changes to non-Ascii character data have happened in edits of his before (e.g. ). But if he knew of this issue, it's rather disappointing he let it happen again some days later . Equally disappointing is the extremely aggressive rhetoric and acerbic tone with which he has been escalating this essentially harmless, good-faith content dispute from the beginning. ] ] 10:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I just can't fathom what tool they're using to get around the HTTPS requirement to edit Misplaced Pages securely. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Should be impossible as it's required to even access the site in the first place according to ]]<sup>] </sup> 16:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::<strike>Looking at his talk page it's been going back to at least 2011]<sup>] </sup> 16:17, 19 December 2024 (UTC)</strike>
:Guys, I do not deliberately set out to modify signatures, and when it happens, I am not usually aware of doing so. As I've already explained before in several places, since the December 2019 encryption protocol upgrade (NOT 2011!), the only way I can edit (or view) Misplaced Pages at all from home is by an indirect method which is not fully Unicode-compliant. To change this, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection, which would permanently disconnect my older computer, which I still use almost every day.
:Meanwhile, this thread has been set up so I can't add a comment to it from home without affecting Unicode characters, so I was unable to reply here for 36 hours or so. If I'm silent in the future, it will be for the same reason. ] (]) 01:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::Misplaced Pages uses Unicode characters (] encoding). Anyone who cannot edit without corrupting such characters should '''not edit'''. ] (]) 03:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Whatever, -- I was using them perfectly fine until December 2019, and still use them perfectly fine on public WiFi, but in December 2019 a requirement was imposed that you can't access Misplaced Pages '''at all''' unless you can handle encryption algorithms and protocols that weren't introduced until the mid-2010s. I have a 2012 web browser on my home computer that handles UTF-8 just fine, but 2012 simply wasn't good enough for the Misplaced Pages developers -- you had to have software that was almost up to date as of 2019, or you would be abruptly totally cut off. If you can drag up the relevant archive of Village Pump Technical, I and others complained at the time, but our concerns were not listened to or considered in any way. The basic attitude of the developers was that if you weren't running almost up-to-date software, then screw you, and if your computer is not capable of running almost up-to-date software, then double screw you! The change was announced for January 2020, but was actually implemented in mid-December 2019, apparently because they were so eager and anxious to start excluding people. It wasn't one of Misplaced Pages's finer moments. Since that time, I have had to use an indirect method to access Misplaced Pages from my home computer, and I don't feel particularly guilty about it (other people's obnoxious behaviors in 2019 have done away with most of the guilt I might feel)... ] (]) 20:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::...] was created in ''1994'', and became an official specification in '''2000''', not "mid-2010s". I'm not sure what 2012 web browser you're using, but if it's not able to handle HTTPS not being able to access Misplaced Pages with it is the least of your browsing concerns, given that 85-95% of the World Wide Web defaults to it now. Also I hate to think of how many security holes your ancient computer has. I'm going to be honest: with a brower setup that old it isn't safe for you to be on the web ''at all'', and the security hole that lets you access Misplaced Pages without using a secure connection should be fixed, because that is ''not'' working as intended and is - as mentioned - a security hole. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:18, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::You unfortunately don't know what you're talking about. New ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL METHODS have been introduced ''within'' HTTPS from time to time. I was using HTTPS perfectly happily until December 2019, when the developers arbitrarily ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. ] (]) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::And even leaving that aside, as Johnuniq mentions - if you can't edit without corrupting Unicode characters, and by your own admission you ''don't know when it happens'', you shouldn't be editing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::This is probably a reference to when Misplaced Pages started requiring TLS 1.2 (because earlier versions were deprecated). Anyone who was/is still on Windows XP at that point couldn't connect any more. ] (]) 01:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::I'm not talking about when the update happening, I'm talking about how you have known about this issue, and have been getting complainants about it since <strike>2011</strike>and are still not taking any steps to do anything about it. What kind of internet connection would not support your PC? What on earth are you even using? Dial-Up? Because that still is supported by even Windows 10. ]<sup>] </sup> 02:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
<strike>:::Also, how did you see me saying "this has happened since 2011" as me saying that the update happened in 2011? Can you clarify. ]<sup>] </sup> 03:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC) </strike>
::::The problem didn't start in 2011, and I have no idea what you're referring to when you mention 2011. The problem started in December 2019 when the developers arbitrarily imposed new ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS... ] (]) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::: Apologies. I was extremely tired when I wrote both above. I have striken the date parts. Rest of my comments still stand. ]<sup>] </sup> 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
===None of this matters===
I don't care what tool this guy uses or what his excuse is. If he can't edit without screwing up people's sigs, then he must not edit. {{U|AnonMoos}} shouls consider himself on notice now that if one of his edits messes stuff up one more time, he'll be blocked until he can give assurance that he's come into the 21st century. ]] 18:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:That's nice -- and also totally inaccurate. I ''was'' in the 21st century, and using 2012 tools, up until December 2019, when the developers pitchforked me backwards by arbitrarily imposing HTTPS ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS which my home computer hardware is not able to run. Notice that I had no problem complying with character-set handling -- the problem is with arbitrary ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. ] (]) 00:48, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The century imagery is irrelevant. You have been warned. ]] 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::That was ''six years ago'', which is IMO about 3-4 years too long to keep using it as an excuse. Technology changes over time, so whatever this non-standard thing you think you need to do to edit here, it may be time to make a choice. ] (]) 00:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::As I said, to fix the problem, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection which would permanently disconnect my old computer, which I still use almost every single day. I would basically have to change my workflow and overall habits/methods of working because of an arbitrary decision by Misplaced Pages developers about encryption protocol updates. Anyway, when editing through public WiFi, I'm 100% Unicode compliant, and by exercising a little prudence, I can also avoid most problems when working from home. If I was constantly mangling Unicode right and left, there would have been a chorus of complaints long before now. But occasionally I can't anticipate a problem... ] (]) 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::And just to say for the third time: you're out of chances. "Occassionally" is too often. Once more is too often. And if and when that happens, your attitude of entitlement displayed here will pretty much ensure an indefinite block. ]] 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Think it's time to draft up a formal proposal at this point? ]<sup>] </sup> 18:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I don't think that's necessary. The key isn't formally deciding the criterion for blocking (because that's obvious to everyone) but rather detecting the next incident. Best way to do that for everyone gathered here to watchlist ]. Sooner or later, futher trouble will show up there. ]] 21:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::If you have DSL or even DialUp. That still works with modern machines. ]<sup>] </sup> 01:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Heck, ''I'' am on DSL (and have been since, if I recall right, 2008). I have no idea what sort of ancient Internet connection AnonMoos is claiming to be using, but it's clearly one that was already obsolete before this change he's still up in arms about six years later was made. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Not to mention it would STILL be supported these days. It's literally right there when you click wifi/network settings in Windows 10. ]<sup>] </sup> 18:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*The response by AnonMoos to feedback about this problem is bizarre. I don't really care what the excuse or the history behind it. If you are unwilling to edit Misplaced Pages using tools that work in 2024 then you should stop editing. The behavior is completely unnecessary and it seems like you don't understand the disruption. ] (]) 14:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


* AnonMoos hasn't really explained in any detail what their technical limitations are. They don't have to, but we can't really give advice otherwise. If as others have suggested their computer can't negotiate TLS 1.2, I'm surprised that they're able to use any websites at all from that computer. Requiring TLS 1.2 is not controversial; Misplaced Pages wasn't doing anything unusual in dropping TLS 1.0/1.1 around that time. ] ] 15:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:I also concur with the removal and the block. SCZenz made an extraordinary effort to communicate with the user and explain exactly why it wasn't appropriate for the reference desk. As the first place many new Wikipedians go, it is important for it to maintain focus. Dirk claims that we are taking the fun out of Misplaced Pages, but there is no way irrelevent penis jokes on the reference desk make the encyclopedia better and he does not have an inalienble right to post them as his comments seem to indicate. Thank you SCZenz for tackling this tough area with patience and wisdom. ] | ] 21:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


== Disruptive editing by ] ==
=== LCs retorts ===
{{atop|1=IP blocked 24 hours, and then ] and created an account to evade the block, which has now been indef'd. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
Surprise surprise! 8-( But Dirk saw it as relevant as he (and I) found ithe Q unclear.--] 00:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The ] is engaging in disrupte editing. Neither does this IP provide sources and is POV pushing. And this IP has been warned multiple times for this on his/her talk page.


] (]) 20:52, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
Oh and BTW, how are the RDs supposed to make WP better? Anyone know?--] 01:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


:@]: It looks like you both are ] on ].<sup class="plainlinks"></sup> That's not particularly helpful, so you should try to have a discussion on the ] as to whether you should include the ] name for the article in the lead/infobox. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">]&thinsp;]<sup>]</sup></span> 20:33, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::I disagree. Things that should be removed would include death threats and racial slurs. Bad jokes, while they perhaps shouldn't be made in the first place, certainly do not rise to the level of something to be removed, and blocking a user over such an issue is absurd. ] 00:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
::MJL why and how did you pick out that one article over the many this IP has made recent changes to? The IP has been making disputed edits for months and has been reverted by a number of editors, not just Moroike. ] (]) 01:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::@]: I am not suggesting that the IP editor isn't being disruptive, but my point is that {{u|Moroike}} isn't making the situation better (using the example of that one article). You can see this by looking at <span class="plainlinks"></span> where {{gender:Moroike|he has|she has|they have}} mostly just reverted this editor without using a summary. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">]&thinsp;]<sup>]</sup></span> 18:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::The IP's edits were removed a total of 13 times on the page regarding the capital city of ], ]. You can't let him continue engaging in further edit wars with other users besides Moroike, can you? ] (]) 17:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Since this IP user won't stop and is stonewalling, either he/should be temporarily blocked, or all the pages he is POV pushing without sources, should be semi-protected, so that only registered users can edit them. ] (]) 21:37, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:After he/she was blocked for 24 hours, this IP created an account as ] in order to evade the block and has resumed his/her POV pushing. ] (]) 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== User engaged in edit warring to remove disputed content prior to consensus ==
:::Agree! 8-)--] 00:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
{{atop|There's nothing actionable in this content dispute, except perhaps trouting the original poster for failing to assume good faith and hounding friendly admins when they try to help. Longtime user ] (4.5 yrs, over 5K edits) has made several assertions based on their clear misunderstanding of social norms. In this discussion they've failed to notify the subject (they actually failed to use the subject's name in the OP), they've failed to bring any diffs, they failed to sign their post, and over and over they seem to have failed to assume good faith of their fellow editors. A number of editors including several admins have attempted to talk Sxbbetyy down. Nobody in this discussion seems to agree with Sxbbetyy on the merits, yet Sxbbetyy keeps circling back to their own personal interpretation of policy. The discussion at ], where Sxbbetyy refuses to listen to the admin they asked, gives another example of the problem. Sxbbetyy is reminded that creating a post on ANI puts all their own behaviors up for examination. ] (]) 15:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)}}


Title is pretty self explanatory. Rather than engage in the consensus building process to determine if the disputed content discussed ] is problematic, ] editor has instead immediately reverted the disputed content. They have been informed of the relevant policies prohibiting this behavior and how it should normally be handled (tagging the content as disputed while the discussion is ongoing) but have elected to instead engage in edit warring to keep the disputed content removed prior to any consensus on the matter. Also important to note that they wish to have the content removed entirely, but have stated that they no longer intend to participate in the consensus building discussion. So this appears to be a ] tactic to accomplish their goal of removing the content immediately without a consensus. Seeking admin help to halt this behavior and restore the content with the correct tagging.<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:36, 18 December 2024 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Xsign -->
SCZ has written, and is operating by, his own guidelines on which he has failed to obtain consensus for acceptance. He is acting autocratically and is guilty of harrassment. SCZ makes up the rules as he goes along. Is that how WP works?--] 00:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
:It would help if you named the editor and signed your name to figure out what you are talking about; a noticeboard only works if you give us notice about the subject and what is happening. <span style="font-family: Roboto;">''']''' <span style="color:#00008B">•</span> <small>''(])''</small></span> 23:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::The editor appears to be {{u|PerfectSoundWhatever}}, based on the under the word "this" as well as . — ]&nbsp;<sub>]</sub> 23:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::My apology, this is my very first time making such a post. The other pages o have spoken on seemed to have signed themselves automatically. Will remember this going forward. And yes, that was the user, posted this using my phone so I didn't want to mis-spell their name, just linked instead. ] (]) 17:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:{{non-admin comment}} IMO the best practice is that in the event of a content dispute, the article should be reverted to the status quo of how the article's content appeared before the dispute started, until such a time that consensus is established to re-add it (see: ]). It seems like the beginning of the content that is in dispute was added on 18 August 2024, the dispute began a few weeks later on 23 September 2024 and has been ongoing ever since.{{pb}}In this case, since the article existed in a relatively steady state for several months (or even years?) previous to the disputed material being added, I think it'd be wise to leave the disputed content out of the article until the discussion comes to a close. ] (]) 00:07, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::I have been seeing this opinion from a few editors and even one admin on how to interpret this article. However, the first few sentences in that section do outright state to avoid reverting the disputed content prior to a consensus. And prior to opening this report, I asked several admins on the topic and got a response that reverting the disputed content immediately is incorrect per WP:STATUSQUO as it bypasses the consensus building process. I was advised that the content should instead be tagged as disputed rather than be outright removed. The offending user was made aware of the relevant policies but has nonetheless engaging in edit warring to keep it reverted, hence this report. ] (]) 17:13, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The status quo of an article constitutes implicit consensus (]). The person trying to include disputed content in an article despite it not being status quo is the one that could be construed as attempting to bypass the consensus building process, not the person trying to maintain status quo until discussion takes place. ] (]) 17:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Correct, and at no point was the definition of what constitutes the status quo ever in contention. In fact, if you review the edit history of the article you can see that the disputed content was the status quo via implicit consensus at the time PSW chose to first outright revert the content, and then continued to revert it as others tried to restore it (both before and after the consensus discussion began). ] (]) 23:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::{{tq|1=the disputed content was the status quo via implicit consensus at the time PSW chose to first outright revert the content}}<br>Not really, I personally wouldn't define "been there a few weeks" as status quo.{{pb}}I think maybe the other replies to this thread provide pretty good reasoning to take a step back and say "hey maybe I'm the one in the wrong here" instead of talking in circles ] (]) 00:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Personally I think the number of contributions since the edit where it has gone unchanged is a more useful metric, especially on low traffic pages such as this one. Regardless, per the policy you cite, there seems to be no official Misplaced Pages stance on what exact criteria are needed for a contribution to be considered the current status quo, beyond it having been unchallenged in subsequent contributions (which is the case here).
::::::As for the rest of your comment, there seems to be a high amount of band wagoning and "]" going on in the rest of this. Or people trying to use this report as an extension of the dispute discussion on the article's talk page. Hopefully more actual admins to chime in on the topic as I don't actually want to waste my time talking in circles.
::::::On that note thanks for actually taking the time and baseline minimal effort to engage in a discussion where you actually support your point and don't just devolve into repeating the same talking points over and over. It's a nice change of pace. ] (]) 02:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:I am the editor being discussed here. I'll provide a summary of events since the initial statement by Sxbbetyy is misleading.
:Myself and the editor had a content dispute at ] (]) and following circular discussion, I stopped engaging since I felt I had laid out my points. Per ], I maintained the state of the article to before the dispute. I requested for a ], which was answered by {{ping|BerryForPerpetuity}}, who agreed the statement should be removed, albeit for a different reason than mine. I took this 2-1 as rough consensus. I also posted the dispute on two WikiProjects, and have received no response so far. Sxbbetyy reached out to three admins about the matter, {{ping|Sergecross73|Oshwah|Pbsouthwood}}. The ] can be summarized as Sergecross believing that I haven't engaged in misconduct, and that I have presented a "plausible, good-faith interpretation of ]". Sxbbetyy then accused Sergecross73 of not acting in good faith. Oshwah did not respond to the post on ], but {{ping|BusterD}} did, essentially agreeing that the sourcing does not back up the claim in the content dispute. Sxbbetyy received help on ] about responding to a content dispute. And now we're here.
:Throughout these interactions, Sxbbetyy has demonstrated a failure to assume good faith, refuses to accept ], and ]s talk pages, refusing to let the other editor have the last word. Frankly, this is a massive waste of editor time: it should have been a brief talk page discussion then an RfC. Apologies for all the pings. — ] (]; ]) 00:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::This summarization in itself leaves out critical context, (such as berry's concern being alleviated and them no longer expressing a desire to remove the content), the specifics of why that conversation with Serge ended the way it did despite my repeated attempts to engage with them in good faith, and the entire discussion with pbsouthwood (who quite definitively explained that the behavior PSW was engaged in was not correct). So I urge all involved to go read those topics to get the correct context through your own eyes and then discuss any concerns from what you see here. That being the case, it seems pretty clear cut imo. ] (]) 17:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Just to be clear, in no way did I express that I didn't want the content to be removed. I did not receive a notification for your reply, and I wouldn't have engaged either way. —&nbsp;] ] 17:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)


: Yes, I would leave that material out of the article. Whilst it may not exactly be synthesis ''per se'', it is certainly editorialising ("the removal of that amount of marine debris is of negligible consequence...") ''unless'' there is an actual source that says this by making a link between between the two statistics (the amount of waste removed by Team Seas and the rate at which waste is entering the ecosystem). And even then, I would say that such an edit would need to say something like "However, ARandomNewspaper pointed out that ...". ] 00:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::He is using common sense and a interpretation of our existing policies in order to keep an important area of the encyclopedia on task and focussed. Also, the user was blocked for edit warring with an admin - ok, this block should have been done by a seperate admin and the issue discussed in more detail elsewhere first, but the block did what it was supposed to do - stopped the edit war.
::That is actually no longer the content that is being disputed. If you look at the that got reverted on the article you can see the current version. I had made edits to it precisely because of valid WP:NPOV concerns brought to my attention by PSW. However, their dispute with the content remains with the claim that is is synthesis rather than any other concern. Which they have been thus far unable to obtain a consensus on. ] (]) 17:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::Remember, ] - jokes do not come within the purpose of the site. The reference desk is one of the first points of contact for many users of this site and as such should be kept focussed - if it is not, then the site may lose some credibility due to what is in essence silly banter.
::I think this is an issue that needs further discussion, maybe on the talk page of SCZenz's proposed guideline page?-]<sup>]</sup> 00:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


*I have some pretty serious ] concerns about the topic starter here. They came to me for help (no idea how/why me, I have no connection to this dispute) and I repeatedly told them I didn't see any misconduct, and then they started attacking ''me'' when I refused to agree with them. And now this. This is a very simple content dispute, with a very simple ] outcome. I've told them this. It's a disappointing time sink on a rather trivial content dispute. ] ] 00:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Hang on! Thats not a proposed Guideline! Its not been presented as such. Its been presenteted as '''SCZs Law'''!. I proposed guidelines weeks ago! SCZ said my guidelines were uneccessary and common sense would do!. So why has he suddenly changed his mind?--] 00:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
*:At no point was he "attacked". I defended myself after he became hostile with me (as anyone can read in our convo, I stated multiple times that I would leave and did not want to be a burden if they didn't want to engage with this, but he made no such objections and continued). Eventually he just became outright hostile and refused to explain their points any further, devolving the conversation into them repeating themselves over and over, its all there to read on his talk page. As for why I contacted him, I wanted to ensure I chose impartially so I just randomly looked at the currently active admins at the time and he was the first one I found. ] (]) 18:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
*::The discussion is , if anyone wants to look. The "attack" I'm referring to you is your accusation that I responded to you in bad faith. I was not involved in the dispute, have no stance on it, and had no pre-conceived notions about either of you - what in the world would my motivations be for "bad faith responses"? It doesn't make any sense. You simply didn't get the response you wanted, and proceeded to badger me on it. Did I get vaguely irritated when I volunteered my time to review and comment on a dispute I had no stance or interest in, only to get all sorts of ] responses on it? Yeah, sure, but who wouldn't? ] ] 18:44, 19 December 2024 (UTC)


*I'm here from my input at the 3rd opinion request. This is nothing more than a trivial content dispute, I see no reason for this to be at ANI. I somewhat agree with the claim of ], it becomes more susceptible to incorrect information, and from my analysis it seemed like the claim in the disputed content was completely wrong. Two different sources, from two different time periods. My $0.02: The claim of stonewalling is ridiculous, there was ample good-faith discussion based on existing policy and guidelines. This editor does not ], it appears that he claims that editors disagreeing are acting in bad faith. From him to administrator Sergecross73: {{tq|"I'm not wasting time engaging with you if you aren't going to speak with me in good faith."}} It seems that he roots his argument based on the editor who removed it rather than the content itself. Very unfortunate waste of time. —&nbsp;] ] 15:31, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::What happened is that I wrote out my common-sense conclusions for the benefit of people who wanted to know what I was doing and why. My page is nothing but an explanation of how existing Misplaced Pages policy (plus a bit of common sense) already covers appropriate use of the reference desk, and what to do about inappropriate use. -- ] 01:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
*:Exactly. It's not "stonewalling" that's happening here. PerfectSoundWhatever has discussed at-length at the talk page. They're simply not willing to ''talk circles indefinitely''. And we don't require that of editors. I've urged Sxbbetyy to, rather that spin their wheels arguing with the same person endlessly in a stalemate, to try to get other participants to take part. But they've refused, and instead decided to move their arguing to ANI instead. As I noted to them in one of my last comments to them, if they spent half as much effort in consensus-building as they did complaining and arguing, they could have built a consensus by now... ] ] 17:30, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
*:Reading any of what I wrote in this dispute shows clearly that is not the case. Also, the quoted sentence is completely taken out of context.
*:Here is what was said in the mesaage before that they left out, "Not really the logical conclusion one draws from reading any of what I wrote here, where I asked multiple times for you to explain your reasoning in your replies (instead your response was to repeat yourself without offering further explanation), but if that is what you want to take away from this that's fine by me. I'm not wasting time engaging with you if you aren't going to speak with me in good faith."
*:The message as a whole was replying to was a passive aggressive insult that didn't progress that conversation, hence the response as it was clearly not an example of engagement in good faith.] (]) 18:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)


:Also, it looks like the participants in the dispute on the Team Seas article are acting as if this report is an extension of that dispute discussion.
:::::As I ve said '''so''' many times (but you were obviously not listening) '''Your''' common sense is '''NOT''' necessarily the same as other peoples. Get it yet? So you need to get '''consensus''' to ensure that a common sense of common sense is achielved!. Understand it yet?--] 01:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
:This is a report of edit warring to revert disputed content prior to a consensus being reached (there was no consensus prior to the reversion and there still is no consensus, as admitted by PSW themselves in that very dispute and In their latest revert message, no idea why now in this report they are trying to claim that there is suddenly consensus for removal).
::::::Mind ], theres no reason to shout. ''semper fi'' — ] 00:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
:This is not a report on the dispute itself, just to make that very clear since those involved are responding as if it is. ] (]) 18:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::You've still got this backward. You need to show a consensus to keep your content in the article, as everyone else has been telling you. ] is directly on point, and I'll quote it here: {{Tq|The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.}} ] (]) 18:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Thank you. I have tried to inform them of this many times and many ways. I do not know why they cannot wrap their head around the concept. Conceptually, it would be very problematic if we were required to retain every disputed content until consensus ruled it out. It wouldn't be workable. ] ] 19:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Nobody is arguing WP:ONUS here...not in the dispute and not here in this report. The point is that the content is being removed prior to there being a consensus on if it should be removed.
:::I was directly advised by admin Pbsouthwood that the removal of disputed content BEFORE any consensus has been reached is not allowed (save for specific situations, none of which apply to the disputed content) as this bypasses the consensus building process. ] is the talk page where I was advised this. This is echoed with the wording in WP:STONEWALLING and ]. Here is the direct quote from the latter, "To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the status quo ante bellum during a dispute discussion. Instead, add an appropriate tag indicating the text is disputed. For an article, many of the inline dispute tags are appropriate. For other pages, {{under discussion inline}} is good. Leave the status quo and the tag in place until the discussion concludes." ] (]) 19:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::{{tq|The point is that the content is being removed prior to there being a consensus on if it should be removed.}} <--- No. This is your problem. What you are saying here is incorrect. Policies say the opposite of this. You are not going to get support at ANI. In fact, the longer you keep going with this ] insistence that community practice is actually the opposite of what policies plainly say it is, the more likely it is you're going to find yourself blocked for disruption. Pbsouthwood didn't tell you this either (what he wrote doesn't match what you've been doing), and your initial question did not properly represent the situation at hand. But we can invite him here to see if he actually supports what you're doing here: {{ping|Pbsouthwood}}, what say you? ] (]) 20:06, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::This entire comment serves absolutely zero purpose whatsoever. You're parroting what others have already said with no supporting evidence. Along with throwing in an oddly included threat that is completely nonsensical and wholly unwarranted.
:::::And while I could point out the myriad of ways your claim about what Pbsouthwood said was inaccurate, that would pretty much involve reposting his reply, which is a waste since anyone can already go to his talk page and read it themselves.
:::::So at this point, if you need that admin to come here and tell you what they already said themselves, more power to you. Would save us all a ton of time to get an authoritative answer on this, especially with another admin holding the opposite view point, in spite of the specific policy wording. ] (]) 23:08, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::], there does not need to be an established consensus for the removal of content. ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I'm not the one insisting otherwise...this report only exists because an ]. And as I've posted in my previous replies, the wording in the policies clearly support that. Makes me question how many have actually bothered to really read these policies... ] (]) 02:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::The other admin told you ''nothing'' about the removal of ], which is always appropriate. ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:19, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::# This report is not an extension of the dispute discussion for that article, if you want to involve yourself in that discussion, do so there, do not hijack this report.
:::::::::# The disputed content is plainly not WP:SYNTH as I explain on the talk page in great length, with nobody thus far having provided valid examples as to how it is.
:::::::::# If you are going to make the claim that any WP:SYNTH concerns warrant immediate reversion without consensus, please feel free to share the quote in the relevant policy that says this. I have not found any such wording and instead found that what is present matches up with what PBsouthwood informed me.
:::::::::] (]) 17:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::] ] ] 02:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::At this point I say that my advice was given without a specific context, and without prejudice. I maintain that it is more collegial and polite to discuss a removal of unsourced but ''plausible'' content ''before'' removing it, as it can often avoid disputes of this kind, but it is not forbidden to arbitrarily delete content that an editor ''plausibly considers inappropriate provided the relevant reason is given''. It is always the responsibility of the person advocating inclusion to provide a reference when challenged, regardless of the process of challenge.
:::::Some forms of synthesis are acceptable. If a conclusion is logically inevitable based on undisputed factual premises, or is a simple mathematical calculation, we routinely accept claims that may not be specifically stated in a source, but we may require the logic to be explained, as it may not be obvious to the reader.
:::::At the risk of being ], I also refer readers to <s>]</s> <u>(looks like that essay has been expunged, try ])</u>. &middot; &middot; &middot; ] ]: 06:59, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I think many of us used to the mess editors adding unsourced content can create would strongly oppose leaving in unsourced content just because it's plausible. The standard should instead be at a minimum that you believe the claim made is most likely correct and sourceable not simply that it's plausible. Although ultimately such discussions are a little silly anyway. If editors would just add sources rather than leaving it for someone else because they're claiming it's unlikely to be challenged or whatever, there would be a need for others to decide whether to query or remove unsourced content. ] (]) 09:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I was suggesting tagging with citation needed while you wait a reasonable time for a response, but as we know some of us do not have the patience and just revert. It in not unheard of to know something, but not have a source handy at the time. What is obvious to one may be totally obscure to others. This is acceptable within policy and guidelines. You could start a RfC to have the guidelines changed, but I suspect it would not get through as being a bit bitey. Cheers, &middot; &middot; &middot; ] ]: 12:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, what you say is true, that's absolutely an acceptable approach. But that's not really the problem at hand here. The bigger issue is that Sxbbetyy appears to be believe that the alternative approach - reverting per STATUSQUO or NOCONSENSUS - is somehow misconduct, and that's simply not true. They're not arguing about if your approach is valid, they're arguing that its ''compulsory'', and they're attempting to report a user for not following your possible approach, which is completely meritless. ] ] 17:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Please do not put words in my mouth. The only reason this report exists is because Peter Southwood advised that this was how I should proceed if the editor participating in this no-consensus reverting continued to do so and was unreceptive to further discussion. (Both are true by admission of PSW themselves). ] (]) 18:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Yes, I've seen , but you presented the situation to them entirely in hypotheticals that lacks crucial context. You frame PSW as unwilling to engage in discussion but omit the fact that You accuse PSW of edit warring to keep their information in the article, but omit the fact that . I would think the near-unanimous rejection of this ANI report would indicate that this was not, in fact, a good thing to report. Best case scenario, this is archived with no action, but I'd be shocked if it didn't result in a ]. ] ] 18:44, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::I don't know why you are attempting to present the entire discussion on that talk page as some sort of proof that PSW was willing to engage in further discussion to halt the behavior this report is about. At no point whatsoever did PSW ever indicate anything like that; if they did this report wouldn't exist as the discussions on your talk page or Peter Southwood's page would have never needed to happen. Not to mention if you take the time to actually read the discussion, you see that most of it is on the specifics of the validity of the WP:SYNTH claim made by PSW, eventually culminating in PSW actually asserting that they will not stop change their position on this and then outright refusing to engage any further.
:::::::::::And now you accuse me of edit warring by citing the entire recent edit history of the page...this isn't fooling anyone who actually bothers to read any of the revert messages and examine the timeline of when they occurred (talk about omitting "crucial context").
:::::::::::Beyond just slandering my character, I don't really see what these kind of spurious claims accomplish. It wastes everyone's time, makes yourself look biased and hostile, and adds nothing to the conversation. Keep things civil please, I really shouldn't have to tell you of all people that basic expectation. ] (]) 02:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::Wait...are you seriously trying to suggest that, even though you were the only one who reverted him every single time, he was edit warring and you weren't? ] ] 02:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::If you are going to continue to twist words and make false claims immediately after being asked to keep things civil, maybe it would be best for all involved if you just moved on from this conversation. Sad that even has to be stated at this point, it should be a given. ] (]) 17:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Yet another IDHT response where you try to baselessly chastize me rather than address anything anyone is saying to you. ] ] 18:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::What a choice to post this exact type reply to my last message... not to mention the sheer absurdity of it. To claim that I've never addressed anyone's points in my replies is so easily and visibly wrong (literally this entire topic is full of my detailed replies to people's concerns, including this very reply) that it's almost insulting to the rest of the people participating in this or to anyone who even chooses to read that message. It's as if you think nobody can see the rest of this discussion (or even the comments directly above it). ] (]) 11:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Thank you for taking the time to respond and my apology for any inconvenience it may have caused. Ive tried to keep it as civil as possible, but there seems to be a very hostile air in this discussion by those with the dissenting opinion. As for how this situation is to be resolved, would it be appropriate to restore the currently disputed content with the appropriate tags (as it is sourced and was the statusquo on the page at the time of reversion)? Or is there something further that must be done here? I'm generally unfamiliar with how ANIs actually function. ] (]) 17:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:Have you considered starting an ]? The fact is that you made a ] addition to the article; someone else objected to it, which means you now ought to seek consensus ''for your addition''. As numerous people have told you, none of the relevant policies and guidelines (], ], ], etc) would allow you to make a recent addition the "default" the way you want, but more generally - the problem is that you're trying to dig through policy for something that will make your preferred version the default, allowing you to have it in the article without having to demonstrate consensus for it even in the face of challenges. Even if the policies and guidelines I listed ''were'' on your side this would still be a bad way to approach it. You have a conflict, your goal should be to resolve it by making consensus as clear as possible - figuring out what the crux of the dispute is and then, if you can't reach a compromise, holding an RFC to see where consensus lies. Also, I have to point out that just by a quick nose count of people who have weighed in on talk, I'm seeing a dispute that is now three-to-one against you. That ''is'' a consensus - not a massive one, maybe an RFC will pull in a bunch of people that say something else, but it doesn't make sense for you to keep demanding a consensus to remove something you added when there actually ''is'' such a consensus on talk. You've disagreed with their arguments but they're not obliged to ] you; ultimately if you think your arguments are so strong and theirs are so weak, the only real option for you at this point is to start an RFC and hope that you can demonstrate that there. --] (]) 04:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::As mentioned earlier in the discussion, this report is not an extension of the dispute on that article, nor is that what this report is about. Also, a RFC was already started for the topic about a week or so ago by PSW, but that occurred after he reverted the status quo, disputed content with discussion (repeatedly). As for the rest of your comment, Peter Southwood, an admin, has addressed what is the actual expectation. ] (]) 18:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::What? I never started an RfC. — ] (]; ]) 19:07, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I just checked and on 12/9/24 at ] you said the following, "Thanks – just wanted to mention I requested comments from ] and ] about 2 weeks ago."
::::Did that not actually happen? ] (]) 02:11, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::] is a specific process. Asking questions on a couple of Wikiprojects is not an RFC. ] (]) 02:22, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::That's fundamentally not what an RFC is. This is getting ridiculous... ] ] 03:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::It's almost like this is the very first time I've ever been involved in this kind of issue on Misplaced Pages before...seriously these kind of replies come off as rude and don't actually say anything meaningful or helpful. Ever since our conversation on your talk page you have made next to no real effort to engage in good faith and I find that highly disappointing to be coming from an admin. And my apology if I offended you at all at some point or if you have just "lost your patience" with me, but I don't see how that gives you the green flag to suddenly disregard ]. I certainly haven't, in spite of being on the receiving end of this. ] (]) 17:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I haven't said anything uncivil, I just keep calling you out when you say something incorrect. ] ] 18:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::], is a powerful force, I find it difficult to resist myself. ] (]) 18:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)


===Request for closure===
:::::::Bold text is emphasis. THIS is shouting 8-)--] 17:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Despite its large size, the consensus here is quite clear. There's no misconduct here, just standard following of procedures of ] and ], which is perfectly acceptable. Not a single person has suggested taking any action towards PerfectSoundWhatver. Outside of a a potential IDHT BOOMERANG, there's nothing left to be done here. Can someone close this? ] ] 14:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:I second that. If there has been any edit-warring by any party that should be dealt with in the normal way. {{u|PerfectSoundWhatever}} has certainly done nothing wrong, and the OP will get blocked if they don't start listening to people pretty quickly. ] (]) 14:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::Exactly. And even that's probably unlikely, as most of the "edit warring" was singular reverts with days or weeks in between. It's far from a 3RR situation at least. ] ] 15:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:{{non-admin comment}} I don't think this conversation is going anywhere fast, other than seemingly coming to the conclusion that @] has done nothing wrong, which seems to be the opposite of what this ANI post was about. There's no edit warring here, and even if there was, it wouldn't be dealt with at this venue. Shut it down! ] (]) 16:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:In what way whatsoever is this editor's decision to revert the disputed content during the discussion "standard following of procedures of WP:STATUSQUO"? The literal first words that appear at that link are in bold and say, "'''Avoid reverting during discussion'''", followed by a detailed explanation of the actual proper procedure. And to make it very clear what it says, here is the literal first paragraph verbatim: "To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the '']'' '''during a dispute discussion'''. Instead, add an appropriate tag indicating the text is disputed. For an article, many of the ] are appropriate. For other pages, <code><nowiki>{{</nowiki>]<nowiki>}}</nowiki></code> is good. Leave the status quo and the tag in place until the discussion concludes." ] (]) 02:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::In what way is ''that'' your read of the consensus in the discussion above? ] ] 02:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::In what world do you logically come to that conclusion from a message that consist of almost entirely the word for word quote of the procedures described in WP:STATUSQUO, that directly counters the claim you just made? Are you saying it is "against consensus" simply because it presents a viewpoint you don't like and don't want to address? I don't see another reason why you would again twist my words, to the point of lunacy. And this is, once again, despite the fact that all of what has been said is literally within view.
:::Also, regarding the consensus. Out of everyone that has actually joined the discussion and all the messages sent (~90% of which are either from myself or you Serge), there have been only three people who have actually said anything in support of your interpretation of this. The rest either did not discuss the topic, did not express an opinion, or were Peter Southwood who supported the interpretation of WP:STATUSQUO as stated on its page. Seems like you're just trying to rush a end to the conversation to get the conclusion you want. ] (]) 15:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I'm saying there has been no consensus for anything you're arguing here. Not a single person has supported action against PSW. ] ] 15:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::The status quo ante bellum that shouldn't be reverted from is the version ''without the new content''. ] (]) 15:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== Creating the need to make 400,000 unnecessary edits ==
=== Samir ===


Can we please dp something about editors who make unnecessary changes to widely-used modules, and then need to change 400,000 talk pages to get the same result we had before the change? Thanks to change from last week, which removed the parameter "living" from the bannershell, we now have more than 400,000 pages in ]. After the "cleanup" by ] (and perhaps others), we will have the exact same result as we had last week, no new functionality, no new categories, no improvement at all, but a lot of flooded watchlists.
Guys, it's okay to have fun on the reference desk, as it's okay (and recommended!) to have fun elsewhere on Misplaced Pages, but please keep the conversations close to the topic at hand. A lot of users turn to the reference desk for answers to legitimate questions; it undermines the role of the desk somewhat if they end up with an irrelevant commentary in an attempt to be funny. I wholeheartedly support the intent of SCZenz's actions -- ] 03:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


I tried to get him to stop at ], to no avail. This isn't the first time, as you can see from that discussion. ] (]) 14:57, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:I do feel bad that DirkvdM was blocked, though. He helped me immensely on the reference desk a couple of months ago, and I've noticed that he's given some exceptional RD answers to other questions -- ] 04:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
:If you want to discuss {{tl|WikiProject banner shell}}, you should do so at ].
:As for the size of the category, I have no plans to empty it, and was only going to update a few hundred more categories and templates. &nbsp;&nbsp;<b>~</b>&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:16px;">] (] ⋅])</span>&nbsp; 15:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::You made nearly 2000 of such edits in the last few hours, and when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries. I have no way to know how many more you planned now or in future runs. Starting a discussion at the module would hardly stop you. ] (]) 15:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::"{{tq|when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries}}": incorrect. Since you wrongly thought I was making cosmetic edits, i.e. "{{tq|no change in output or categories}}", the category was to inform you that they are not cosmetic.
:::Regarding a BRFA for the bulk of the category, that's looking more likely since the category appears to be neglected. &nbsp;&nbsp;<b>~</b>&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:16px;">] (] ⋅])</span>&nbsp; 15:29, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Unnecessary removing a synonym and then making thousands of edits to remove the hidden cat created by that unnecessary change is not really any better than making cosmetic edits, the end result is that nothing has changed for the affected pages at all. ] (]) 15:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Not unnecessary. The Lua code is very complex and removing the need the support various settings makes the code both easier to read and maintain. As always, editors that don't want to see these edits can hide these by hiding the tag "talk banner shell conversion". ] (]) 12:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::It doesn´t look as if the specific code to have these synonyms was very complicated though, the argument that in some cases two synonyms were used on one page with conflicting values was more convincing. And the edits I complained about did ''not'' have that tag, so no, even if people knew about hiding that tag, it wouldn't have helped here at all. ] (]) 16:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:This was discussed in detail on ]. Ideally these edits would be done by an approved bot so they do not appear on people's watchlists. The main benefit is to merge the {{para|blp}} and {{para|living}} parameters. When both are in use, we find they often get conflicting values because one gets updated and the other does not. &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 17:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::Isn't it more logical to first have a bot cleanup the unwanted parameter, then remove it from the template, and only then start populating the cat with the somehow remaining or since added instances? In any case, this is a typical bot task and shouldn't be done with massive AWB runs. ] (]) 17:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Yes, probably. But we have this mechanism already set up and I assumed {{ul|Cewbot}} would deal with these as part of its normal activities. Happy to look at other options - maybe discuss on template talk? &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 18:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I don't know what this is about, but if the OP is correct, it is totally absurd to edit 400,000 talk pages for a tweak. Discussing at a template talk page monitored by those focused on the template would simply hide the issue. ] (]) 03:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Edits like these should ''always'' be bots, so they can be filtered from watchlists. There are numerous other editors who have recently engaged in the mass additional of categories to articles which I had to ask them to stop as my watchlist was flooded. ]] 13:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)


* Is it just me or are talk pages like ] just perpetual ] issues where a very small number of editors (frequently 5 or less) make major changes that affect thousands of articles, all without involving the broader community through, at minimum, places like ]? ]]<sup>]</sup> 04:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::I feel bad about it too. -- ] 04:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
*{{ping|Fram|Tom.Reding|Kanashimi|Primefac}} I got AWB working again. If cewbot would take time for making the changes, and if this needs attention soon, then should I file a request for that particular bot task? —usernamekiran ] 06:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:The robot is in operation... ] (]) 09:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::yay! —usernamekiran ] 16:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


:Meanwhile, the category has grown to over 800,000 pages. Perhaps next time an RfC to determine whether creating such a large cleanup task is warranted, would be better? ] (]) 16:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:I think the next time this comes up I might be tempted to file an arbitration request to settle this damn issue once and for all. Do you imagine a real reference library would staff its front desk with children (or child-minded adults) making potty jokes? ] 04:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Actually, I once encountered at a large and famous public library, a pair of reference desk librarians, middle aged ladies, who chortled to each other with off-color remarks about a serious info request. It was pretty disgusting and I have not been back. ] 14:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::That's not a valid comparison. If Misplaced Pages was paying us, we might be willing to put up with a humorless and autocratic environment, but they are not. ] 04:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


== ] ==
::Pay peanuts... Actually I think the RDs get a damn good deal from the RD editors. THe only payment we get is a few jokes (not many of them now)--] 15:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


:::But that's the problem. What we see as a plea for simple decency you see as humorless and autocratic. Do ''you'' see a way to address this without handing it off to arbcom? ] 04:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


] is making wholesale reverts of my edits in contravention to guidelines. ] (]) 19:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Yes, the solution is to bring such issues up at the Ref Desk talk page, discuss them there, then come up with a consensus for a solution. This is the method which was working, with a few bumps here and there. But, since ] didn't like how we were handling things, they chose to decide, without consensus, both what is appropriate and when an inappropriate comment rises to the level of requiring removal. I don't consider having any one person deciding such things to be appropriate, whether they are an Admin or not. ] 05:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
:You're removing demographic categories and templates by blanking them out; irreligion still deals with religion no matter your argument. That's definitely not compliant with ] and clearly vandalism. There's no action to take here except that you need to stop removing these categories and templates. <span style="font-family: Roboto;">''']''' <span style="color:#00008B">•</span> <small>''(])''</small></span> 19:42, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::And you are now '''required''' to cite how your edits meet ]; spamming it in edit summaries is not discussion. <span style="font-family: Roboto;">''']''' <span style="color:#00008B">•</span> <small>''(])''</small></span> 19:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::While doing routine vandal patrol, I came across what seemed to be a hasty and massive removal of content, being done in a very directed and personal manner.
::::After looking at the persistent removal, and communicating, I restored the well-drawn categories.
::::Hopefully, this is easily resolved.
:::] (]) 20:40, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::43*, do not continue to revert these category removals without discussing them first. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::THere is nothing to discuss. The guidelines are clear. What needs to be done is editors need to be familiar with the cat guidelines. We don't discuss whether the sky is blue do we? ] (]) 02:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::THey are not well drawn, it was not hasty, it was not massive, and it was not "personal". It was directed because they all had the same issue. ] (]) 02:07, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Editors should not blindly revert. They should be '''required''' to understand the guideleines. ] (]) 02:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)


I gave up editing because there were too many problems that the wiki communtity is not sorting out. One of them is treating anon editors as second class wikicitizens.
::::Yes. What do you mean by simple decency? Whose standards would you be using? Yours, mine or someone eleses?--] 17:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


Another problem is "this is how it is so we are going to leave it like this for years and years" and this is at the expense of the quality of WP.
:::::I think this whole consensus discussion is a red herring. I'm not in favour of removing content from the RD, but IMO it's come to this because people have been so stubborn about defending indefensible contributions. '''IT'S A WIKI'''. Every single page belongs to the WikiMedia Foundation, and we release every single character we type to the GFDL. This means articles, talk pages, userpages, and the RD. Users generally have dominion over our userpages out of courtesy, not because we own them. But anyone can edit them. The editing or removal of on-topic talk page contributions is frowned upon because it ''defeats the purpose of the article talk page, which is to achieve consensus on the content of the article''. The RD is not a talk page. Our every contribution is not sacrosanct. We are working towards solutions to individual problems posed as questions by individual posters, and as such, off-topic contributions are subject to removal. They haven't been up to now, but now they are. It doesn't need a change in policy, and it doesn't need consensus. It's as simple as that. '''IT'S A WIKI'''. ] 09:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


I can't remember the specific category guideline for the edits I did but is the undoing editors need to look it up. Categorisation is something that a lot of editor do not understand. Go and put a notice on WikkiProoject Categorisation and you will fing that there is support for my edits.
:::::::Im '''very sorry''' to have to say this, and its not an attack, but I find Anchoresss comment totally neutral and unhelpful in every way! It does not advance the discussion 8-( '''Really''' sorry! No offence! 8-( --] 00:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


WP could be sooo much better. ] (]) 02:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I believe that it is a talk page. Let's look at some of the differences and decide where the Ref Desk falls:


:I'm sorry, but "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone" is an indication you should be trying to do better instead of telling us we should do the same. If you're not willing to actually explain why guidelines vindicate your changes, then being right sometimes isn't enough if you want to make things better. Communication is the process, not something ancillary to it. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 02:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::GO and read the guidelines. It does not need discussion. ] (]) 02:15, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Discussion is required when other editors ask you questions in good faith in order to resolve present disputes and prevent future ones. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 02:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::Bear in mind this is WP and not social media. ] (]) 02:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::How do you get the impression that "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone". ] (]) 02:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::No. You brought this here. The ] is on ''you'' to explain how the guidelines justify your edits, not to say "go look it up". Also {{tqq|How do you get the impression that "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone"}} - because that's exactly what you said. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::It's not unreasonable in many cases to link to a very specific passage of a guideline and expect an editor to understand its meaning as regards a pertinent dispute, but you can't just fail to clearly articulate your argument while also insisting it's vindicated somewhere within the full text of a guideline. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 02:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:Content dispute. Bold edits were reverted; next step is discussion, probably at ]. If there is dispute over interpretation of the guideline you can consider leaving a pointer at ]. If there are any categories that shouldn't be used at all that can be discussed at ]. ] (]) 03:31, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::The content dispute could have been discussed on any of the talk pages. Yet it was brought here first. ] (]) 06:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::When a content dispute involves several pages it is often <small>though not always</small> best to centralize discussion. Misunderstanding ANIs purpose and bringing content disputes here is a common and understandable error; best just to point people at appropriate ] when that happens. ] (]) 06:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)


Not overly impressed by 43's comments above. But do wish to note that their ] of ] from at least one BLP appears to have been correct. The subsequent reversion of that removal is misfortune. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
ARTICLE RULES
===================================================
Don't sign posts.
Make any changes you think improves the article.
Rigid format rules (ie, for "References" section).
Length is limited by deleting redundant info.


== User:ZanderAlbatraz1145 Civility and Content #2 ==
TALK PAGE
*{{userlinks|ZanderAlbatraz1145}}
==================================================
This user has engaged in a lengthy display of disruption. Namely through incessant incivility I have noticed .
Sign all posts.
Only add to the talk page, except for archiving
and removing abusive language.
Lax format rules.
Length is limited by archiving.
::::::] 09:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


Instances such as , , on , etc. Users such as {{Ping|Waxworker}} and {{Ping|Jon698}} can speak to their experiences, I'll outline mine.
::I tend to disagree with arbitration for this; I think this can be handled at the admin level, which is what I've been trying to do. Unless other admins have concerns about my approach, I'm perfectly <s>happy</s> ''willing'' to continue removing inappropriate comments and (if necessary, and after due warning) blocking those who restore them. I don't think what I'm doing needs to be endorsed by ArbCom to be valid&mdash;but if other admins think having a statement from authority is preferable to my current approach, then I'll go along with that. -- ] 04:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


On December 10, I noticed on the article ] page several additions were made that didn't adhere to the article's purpose. Zander restored these with an introductory summary rife with . For the most part there was an attempt to discuss the issue we had, but ultimately did not see eye to eye. I asserted I'd be escalating the issue to garner more substantive dialogue around it, Zander's response includes a needless . I made some attempts at engaging the topic at the article's talk page, in addition to WikiProject Film, it was over a week that saw no input. I would go on to state that (at the time) in two days, I would restore the page to it's status quo. I would do so, . Zander , and after another terse interaction, I moved to nominate the article for deletion, finding with the conflicting views of what Unrealized meant, it was too open ended and led to these lists being essentially trivia. Since then, Zander has elected to take an antagonistic approach towards me, making swipes they openly admit , and now that I am putting said comments , Zander is now doing the editing equivalent of mockingly repeating me, with edits such as and .
:::I completely support what you are doing, without arbcom endorsement. I might suggest an intermediate step of banning a problem user from the reference desk for a period of time, under threat of block, so they can edit elsewhere for a while. But if bans are the only way to get the point across that this '''is''' the community consensus (or at least admin consensus) then so be it. ] 04:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


This editor displays no interest in conducting themselves cordially or cooperatively on this website. ] 23:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Admins deciding unilaterally to block people is '''not''' community consensus, and should only be used for severe abuse of the Ref Desk, not for telling a bad joke. ] 05:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
:I've given them a warning for canvassing: - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:08, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
: - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::And they appear to be continuing editing while ignoring here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


== SPA ] back at it on ] ==
:::::The block was for the repeated and disruptive restoration of the irrelevant discussion, despite a clear warning. There was no consequence for making the joke except removal with a polite note&mdash;as indeed there should not be. -- ] 05:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


Hi, all, I'd like some assistance with the SPA ], who's been POV pushing on the ] article since . A quick view of their extremely short edit history shows that their sole focus is on pushing a vaccine-denialist POV on that and similar COVID-related topics. Started out on the talk page and BLPN, but now they've graduated to edit-warring on the article itself; they were active in June, made a single related edit in October, but now they appear to be . They've already , and have received an warning--to which they were . Would appreciate a more permanent resolution, either a COVID-19 topic ban or just an indef considering their SPA status, so they don't just go back into hibernation and then turn up again like a bad penny. (And yeah, given this context, I don't love the implications of the username "Tikitorch2", either.) Thanks, ]&nbsp;]] 05:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::That was a direct consequence of removing the comment, as no block would have occurred if you hadn't started the revert war then escalated to a block when you were unable to convince the user of your POV. ] 05:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


:]? ] (]) 06:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
SCzenz 's actions were not unilateral as so far they have been supported by every admin who has commented on the page. Obviously then, there are people who agree with him and he isn't acting in a vacuum. I don't think arbcom is needed here either. Nor does it have to be an admin who removes inappropriate comments. "You're taking the fun out of Misplaced Pages" is an immature argument for leaving irrelevant penis jokes on some of our most public pages. ] | ] 05:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
::{{duck}}. I'm sending this ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 11:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::, so might just be generic disruption. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:What are you implying with regard to my username? My edit history has been limited to trying to correct two red flags that stood out so much that I followed the citations when I was searching these scientists who were in the news for censorship. It has been enlightening learning how wikipedia selectively chooses secondary sources but discourages the use of primary sources to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible.
:For my two attempted contributions to Misplaced Pages, the two red flags were pretty dramatic to prompt me to check out the citations--Sunetra Gupta's article implied more than 1 in 1000 people in England died from Covid in spring 2020 in an effort to discredit her, which was trivially easy to google as untrue. I corrected that without really changing the overall narrative. The article for Martin Kulldorff...I would probably not have spent time looking at the sources or realized how unscientific Kulldorff's critics were had there not been such superfluous "Wikivoice" editorializing and synthesizing suggesting Kulldorff lied in an essay to the public. ] (]) 06:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::] are not to be used for anything but simple facts about a subject. They absolutely are not to be used {{tqq|to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible}} because that is ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Not sure why you felt the need to repeat what I said. Maybe I am the sock puppeteer! ] (]) 03:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::What I am implying is that such a username in the context of an account pushing COVID-denialist rhetoric that flies in the face of the sources and Misplaced Pages policy is . Anyway, this editor continues to be a drain of editor time and attention. ]&nbsp;]] 14:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Ah an absurd, convoluted, and contrived personal attack. Assuming anyone but you knew tiki torches were present at a political event where someone was killed, why would I choose my username based on that? Tikitorches provide light, warmth, and keep the mosquitos away. I guess its not surprising an editor named writ keeper attacks the editor rather than effectively debating the subject of the edit. ] (]) 03:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Even if it was a personal attack, making one ''back'' isn't going to fly here. Knock it off. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::], your edits are being examined at ANI. This is not a pleasant experience, I'll admit. So, it's best for you not to dig yourself into a hole. I know the instinct is to defend yourself but it doesn't help your situation to come out swinging. It's probably to your benefit to address any concerns that have been raised and say no more than that. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


== ] ==
:It's unilateral in that it was decided '''before''' asking for the opinions of others. And, frankly, I bet Admins would support one another against the user community except for extremely blatant and obvious abuses. This isn't exactly surprising, as the question boils down to giving Admins more power and Users less power. As for anybody being able to remove a comment, that would allow the original user to restore the comment if they disagreed. However, when an admin removes your comment and you put it back, you get blocked, this is the issue. Your comment that ]'s actions are "supported by every admin who has commented on the page" also contains the hidden assumption that only the opinions of Admins matter, and all comments from the general user community (including regular Ref Desk contributors) can be ignored. ] 05:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
{{atop|result=Just officially closing this discussion as the account involved has been globally blocked. If an editor has Spore on your Watchlist and you see this occurring again, contact your local administrator. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
This user made 500 edits to their user page which were all completely useless (] to inflate their edit count) and then once receiving extended-confirmed permissions vandalized ] by copypasting another article. Their user page shows them editing and counting to 500. ]] 04:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)


:It's a ], and I just reported to AIV. ] (]) 04:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Actually, his explanation page has been there a while and other people have looked at it and agreed with it. You didn't know that, but it was discussed before action was taken. Therefore the actions was not unilateral. ] | ] 07:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


::Would it be possible to put up some kind of filter to alert for this? Something that…say…catches when more than 25 edits are made in a single space (user space for example) or something that would trip if the edits added less than 5 characters consistently? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::The proper place for the discussion was the Ref Desk talk page, where it was discussed, and I don't believe there was any consensus reached that ] should start deleting any comments he didn't like. And, in any case, each individual deletion is still unilateral, unless that specific deletion has been agreed to based on a consensus. For example, we might well all agree that death threats should be removed, but an Admin removing a statement that "bin Laden may be killed soon" would still be unilateral, because we have not agreed that this was a violation of the "no death threats" policy. ] 09:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
:::There is a filter for this. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:AbuseLog&wpSearchUser=International+Space+Station0&offset=20241222044736, "New account unusual activity" covers exactly this. ] (]) 05:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*This account has been globally blocked as an LTA so it shouldn't be an issue. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:25, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*:At what point is it appropriate to selectively delete their hundreds of edits of nonsense from the page history?
*:Or is that just something that isn't done? &ndash; ] (]) (]) 05:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*::If you are talking ], there is rarely a good reason for it's use at present. If instead you mean ] see ] and ]. ] (]) 05:33, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::I've gone ahead and revdel'd the lot of them, as cut-and-pasting from other articles without proper attribution is copyvio and thus RD1able. Selective deletion (making the edits go away from the history) is probably not going to happen, if it's even technically possible for an article with almost *9500* revisions (I know ]!). - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== Disruptive editor on ] ==
::All opinions are important, but I think we especially value those from people who contribute to the Ref Desk regularly. After all, you guys are the ones actually doing the work of answering the questions. But don't you think some of the less-than-relevant commentary could be toned down a bit, StuRat? It's one of the things that personally turns me off the reference desk also. I see a lot of medical questions that I could answer, but they often devolve into joke-cracking threads that I feel somewhat silly adding to. -- ] 07:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


User ] has repeatedly removed reliably sourced refs to the genres infobox by removing ] simply because they don't believe it to be correct as the ref is "new" and that the artist isn't that genre. I had sent them two warnings now and also explained that's not how this works, so they decided to add more genres with refs that don't even mention the genres they included. I do not believe this editor is going to cooperate. ] (]) 08:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Yes, I do think that irrelevant silliness should be limited. However, this is '''not''' the same as saying we should start censoring the contributions of others, and most definitely not the same as saying we should start blocking regular contributors. This type of overreaction is more of a problem than the irrelevant silliness ever was. ] 08:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


:User:Pillowdelight changed the genre list of When the Pawn... which originally had been a variation of certain genres: Art pop, jazz rock, art rock, alternative rock, jazz pop, chamber pop, all of which are somewhat accurate and agreed upon by various editors of this page over many years. It was changed to just Alt pop, a genre that is used to describe the newer sounds of pop in the early 2010s with Lorde, Sky Ferreira and Lana del rey. It is not a genre that fits the album hence it has never before user:Pillowdelight been described as such beyond what her poor source says, a Fiona Apple revisit (that is not even about When the pawn.. specifically) from a new, small and virtually unheard of web magazine. Sources such as Rateyourmusic, allmusic and Pitchfork are far more accurate and robust and that's why this album has never been described as alt pop. That genre did not exist at the time of the release of the album. The source needs to be accurate, it is not. It's not an album review, it is a fluff article about Fiona Apple by a small web magazine. It's not even about When the pawn... specifically, it makes no sense. I think the other editors agree, it is inaccurate.
::::What you're saying is, if a user adds content to the reference desk that's bad for Misplaced Pages, I have no right to take any action? -- ] 08:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
:Allmusic and pitchfork are far better sources. I have added both as sources. I didn't change the genre list, I simply changed it back to the genre list that had stood there the longest before user:Pillowdelight changed it a few months ago for the first time, having never touched this page before yet complaining about other editors. ] (]) 18:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::{{ping|Longislandtea}} I removed the genres because they're unsourced, which I stated in many edit summaries you keep reverting, as well as on your talk page. It doesn't matter that just because you believe a source another user added calling the album alternative pop is incorrect and unreliable because it's "new, small and virtually unheard of" is a ridiculously excuse. Read ] it states — {{xt|genres must be stated and referenced in the body of the article; personal opinions or original research must not be included.}} The sources you have added specifically from Pitchfork don't state the genres you've listed. ] (]) 20:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Sources need to be '''legitimate''' and''' relevant'''. Your source is not relevant and it is disputed. Pitchfork is added because they describe the album as an alternative album several times in the review and the genre category is ROCK. What is alternative and rock? Alternative rock. That is how the album was marketed. You can't cherrypick a single article to make a case for a genre that the album absolutely is not in. I will remove the Pitchfork source, that's fine. There's numerous ones including from Allmusic that clearly state that it is an alternative rock album. The album was even added to Misplaced Pages's page for alt rock albums ages ago. This is very uncontroversial. Just having alternative rock is also lacking; jazz fusion, art pop (the album is already added on the wikipedia page for art pop albums) and art rock are accurate too and have been there for ages but alas! Let's get rid of it all to only serve your opinion. Numerous albums have unsourced genres might I add, but the vast of amount of editors agree to it because they know these accurately describe the album, these are the scenes that the album and artist comes from and sourcing for genres can often times be lacking. In that case, rather than trying to look for BAD sources, it's better to agree with the consensus. In our case, we do have sources. Rateyourmusic has been used as a source for adding art pop, alternative rock, jazz pop, fusion, art rock and chamber pop as genres before. ] (]) 20:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Here's the page for what is considered acceptable sources {{lw|Acceptable sources}}.
::::''Relevance. Sources must be relevant--there must be some reason for the reader to care about what the author has to say. For example, the opinion of a random individual on the presidency of George W. Bush, as published in a letter to the editor of a major newspaper, is not relevant; and thus should not be included--even though it is published, traceable to its author, and given in a reputable publication. Relevance can be imputed several ways--through explicit personal knowledge, through subject-matter authority, through general notability of the author, through demonstrable correlation with the opinion(s) of a large group of people, etc.''
::::A large group of people, the editors of When the Pawn...'s page throughout the years, thousands of people on music reviewing sites and numerous music journalists from legitimate publications do not agree with what this one article you cherrypicked states.
::::''Note that this policy is the minimum standard for inclusion as a reference in Misplaced Pages. Sources may meet this standard and still not be authoritative, reliable, accurate, free from bias, or undisputed. Sources which meet this minimum standard but which fail to meet stricter standards may be used, but should be used with caution. In particular, such sources should be explicitly attributed to their author(s) or publisher(s) in an article's prose (rather than being presented as fact with the author only given in the notes), and disputes considering the source's veracity should be described.''
::::Meaning you can't just add any genre because some random source says it when it goes against larger and more reliable sources as well as it is controversial.
::::Thank you and please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand. ] (]) 21:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::]. Note that accusing editors of vandalism when they are not, in fact, vandalising can be considered a ], so I'd suggest you strike that comment. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Okay, I strike. ] (]) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::You didn't actually strike any comments. To do so, do this <nowiki><s>Comment</s></nowiki> which will make it look like this <s>Comment</s>. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::<s> please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand.</s> ] (]) 22:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Longislandtea}} How is the source considered not relevant and where was this dispute? AllMusic ''does not'' call the album alternative rock at all within its article. Rate Your Music is also not a source it's user generated which is against Misplaced Pages. I really wish an admin would comment on this because this is getting absolutely nowhere. ] (]) 21:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Here's another source describing it as an alternative rock and jazz fusion album
:::::https://www.the-solute.com/the-solute-record-club-fiona-apple-when-the-pawn/
:::::Alt pop is not accurate. If you're so adamant about alt pop, please argue why. It is completely inaccurate and you have one singular source over music journalists and music sites. Allmusic does categorize it as alternative rock, Pitchfork has categorized it as rock since 1999 of its release. There was NO Alt-pop at the time. It still isn't. These are different genres. Art pop is not Alt pop. You edited the page one time in October 2024 only to get rid of the genre list that editors agreed upon to add Alt pop which makes no sense whatsoever. ] (]) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I have now added a new source to the genre list. If you have any problems with the new source, tell me. But it's much more accurate this way. It's still sad to see the whole genre list that was originally there, so much more descriptive and fitting, hacked away but oh well. ] (]) 21:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Pitchfork's categorizations mean basically nothing. They have ten categories, one of which is "Pop/R&B", and another of which is "Global". By the way, you should just stop caring about this, because sources misclassify genres of music chronically and everywhere you look. Take your passion to RateYourMusic. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:All of this discussion should be taking place on the article's talk page (which neither editor has used). ]&nbsp;] 21:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::{{ping|Schazjmd}} I'm awaiting for an admin to respond. This conversation is getting nowhere hence the reason why I brought it here in the first place. I've tried to explain to the user on their talk page along with this entire thread and it's getting nowhere. {{ping|The Bushranger}} you left a comment but could you please share your opinion on the dispute? Or possibly ping an admin who's familiar with music if this isn't your area of familiarity? ] (]) 21:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::There was no reason to bring this conversation here. I talked to you directly but go no real reply or any arguments despite adding sources and explaining why it's not an Alt pop album. I've explained to you well enough. Please stop trying to get admins to ban me simply because I (and other editors) recognize that the genre list that you got rid of was far more fitting. There's a new genre list now with sources but it is not Alt-pop. The album was already added to the wikipedia album pages for Alternative rock and art pop. I'm familiar with these genres and Fiona Apple specifically to know that it's accurate hence why the genre list has been that way for years. If you're adamant about sources, there is a source. Accusing me of not sourcing should be considered a false accusation at this point. Not all sources are equal either and I've tried explaining that to you. ] (]) 21:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::], you were given good advice which is to have this discussion on the article talk page which neither editor has posted at yet. This is a content dispute. If no action has been taken yet by an administrator, it's likely because they don't agree with your statement that action needs to be taken. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Okay, will do. Thank you Liz. ] (]) 22:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)


=== Irrelevant sources and unnecessary changes to genre list on {{pagelinks|When the Pawn...}} ===
:::::Not unless it's really horrendous, and it wasn't, in this case. Put it this way, which is better, to have that joke removed and Dirk banned, or to leave both alone ? ] 09:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


On October 22 2024, {{lu|Pillowdelight}} changed the genre list that has stood in place for years and has been a variation of the same variety of genres: Art pop, art rock, jazz, alternative rock, jazz rock, chamber pop and jazz pop. Across the biggest music sites, this is what the album is described as. The user changed it to Alt pop using a single irrelevant and unreliable source. The album is not described as such anywhere else. The user is going against the general consensus. Sources have now been added to the genre list and I don't feel as though that would mean I'm breaking any rules. The user is threatening to get another editor banned because they're uncooperative with how us other editors feel the genre list should look like. It's an album that has been categorized as rock by Pitchfork at the time of its release and was added to rock charts when released too.
::::::Considering just this one incident, it would be better to leave the joke. However, your argument will apply every single time the reference desk is used inappropriately. In the big picture, it's better to draw a line somewhere and insist that the reference desk not be misused. Dirk's decision to disrupt the reference desk to make a ] about me being a despot was his own... and the consequences were what I warned they would be. -- ] 09:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's how the genre list has looked over a long period of time, without much controversy from editors not readers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1178937091 from 2023


https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1049316366 from 2021
:::::::"It takes two to tango". That is, it was your decision to remove the comment, and yours to block him for restoring the rather innocuous comment. These actions seemed to be more about your pride than improving Misplaced Pages. ] 09:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


Thank you. ] (]) 19:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
=== Gandalf61 comment ===
:Why do people have to argue about what genre music is rather than just listening to it, and hopefully enjoying it? ] (]) 19:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::The genre list was fine and accurate and uncontroversial until this user decided to remove the entire thing. It's important that the genre list is accurate. People find albums through genres. There's other reasons as well. ] (]) 20:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::This is neither here nor there, but I thought albums are generally sorted in alphabetical order by band name or the musician's last name.
:::Please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or my information is incomplete. ] (]) 22:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I was trying to explain the important of listing genres accurately. If you go to a record store then yes, albums are listed in alphabetical order. But they're still put in categories of genres. ] (]) 22:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::If we were going to list musical genres "accurately," we wouldn't bother at all. Except in very broad strokes ("rock," "punk," "Baroque," etc), so many of these horribly subjective "genres" are made up by bored media writers and bands that hate the notion of being The Same As Everyone Else. Get ten people to listen to ten different tracks of heavy metal, and you won't get as many as a third of them agreeing on any of them on the doom/grudge/dark/death/Goth/Viking/sludge/*-grind/*-core/etc etc etc spectrum. Beyond that, arguing whether any given artist is "that genre" is ''very'' highly subjective. (Hell, I've sung Baroque, classical, folk, rock, ethnic, shape note, so many genres I can't readily count.) ] 15:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


== Multiple users breaking 3RR on Gilman School article ==
::My I add a comment, as a non-admin but long standing Wikipedian and regular RD contributor ? SCZenz is acting on his honest belief that the RDs need to be regulated and cleaned up. He has put some thought into this and has written up the standards to which he thinks RD questions and answers should conform. He has started to enforce these standards by deleting responses, and sometimes whole threads. Unfortunately, he does not have time to patrol the RDs regularly, so his deletions have a sporadic and ad-hoc quality. His actions are also encouraging victimisation of certain RD contributors by others - see recent discussions on the RD talk page. If there is concensus that SCZenz is doing the right thing, then there should be no need for him to patrol the RDs on his own. ''Please'' help him set up a process to regulate the RDs properly by applying an agreed set of rules regularly, consistently and fairly. The current ] situation is very unsatisfactory. ] 10:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


After edit conflict:
:::Samir, note that if the deletion of inappropriate stuff becomes policy any medical questions would be removed, so any answer you gave would also be removed. Be carefull when judging something you haven't felt the full brunt of. For this reason who should decide ref desk policy should be determined by how active they are at the ref desk, not by whether they are an admin. ] 10:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


:As far as I'm concerned, the block is a minor issue (actually, I now notice the block has already ended). What's at stake here is the nature of the ref desk, and any discussions about that should take place at ]. About SCZenz's behaviour, may an admin use his powers (in casu blocking me) in a discussion he is one of the original parties in? I thought that was not allowed. ] I've split the issue in four subtopics: what should be allowed on the ref desk, whether that applies to me and LightCurrent, how should any misbehaviour (when that is defined) be dealt with and if SCZenz is allowed to decide that on his own (ignoring the fact that there is still a hefty discussion going on about this at the talk page).
:Oh, and since that term was again used here, it was not a penis joke. It was an amusing misunderstanding followed by clarifying info. A joke is something you come up with and I didn't come up with it, it was something amusing that happened to me. But like I explained on my talk page, I wonder if SCZenz has a hidden agenda. He says he wants to remove off topic remarks. But he doesn't do that (consistently). In stead he seems to just remove stuff that doesnt' please him personally, in casu a subject that has to do with a reproductive organ. This is '''selective zero tolerance'''. Very dangerous. Rules should be applied systematically, not at someone's whim. And for that there should be rules in the first place. Let's first establish rules for the nature of the ref desk and how to deal with them. I'm rather tempted to start removing ''all'' off-topic remarks at the ref desk, to show how disruptive non-selective zero tolerance would be. But I won't be so childish (yet). :)
:Btw, SCZenz, do you report all your deletions to all the people in the sub-thread? (And is that at all do-able?) If so, I'm surprised this is the first time you've deleted anything by me, considering I make loads of side-remarks and you claim to have been doing this for a long time already. (So you must have been doing it very selectively then.) ] 10:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


Two users are actively engaged in an ongoing edit war on ], with both {{user13|Counterfeit_Purses}} breaking 3RR , , , and {{user13|Statistical_Infighting}} being right at 3 Reverts
:I just checked, and you don't always warn people that you removed their contributions. As would indeed be impossible, even with a bot. And that is rather a major issue here. ] 11:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
, , .


This seems to go back to December 9th, with the first editor (Counterfeit) removing it and , on the 17th, , and then being at the above today.
::Regarding complaints that I'm selective... I'm one person doing my best. We're all volunteers here; articles with no references get improved when someone have time, hoax pages get deleted when people notice them, admins are promoted when bureaucrats get around to it. Doing the right thing is still the right thing, even if it can't be done consistently. I have been removing primarily the most egregious examples of off-topic remarks, not indeed in the hope of getting them all, but rather in the hope of illustrating by example what kinds of discussion is definitely outside the purpose of the reference desk. In the long term, I have no intention of being the official reference desk "censor." I'm trying to draw a line in the sand, in order to help bring things back under control. The reference desk is off course, and helping it come back is a matter of applying existing policies, not arguing about new ones. And the reason other people aren't joining me in doing this is, frankly, that I can handle it myself and they have other things to do.
::Regarding my "hidden agenda"... Yes, the fact that it was a juvenile penis joke is an aggrivating factor in my view. Talk about all the sex organs you like if it answers a question, but if new users think they're going to randomly have crude jokes thrown at them when they ask something not related to sex, it will intimidate them and keep them from using the reference desk. That's not okay, and ] doesn't mean I have to pretend it is. We don't censor ''content''... but we're not talking about content here, now are we? We're talking about a pointless joke.


] (])
::Ok, that's it for me commenting in this section, unless something else goes wrong. A number of other administrators have reviewed my actions (more than have commented, almost certainly) and I have yet to receive any word from them that I'm taking the wrong approach... so for now, I'll keep at it. You can make pretty speeches here some more if you want, or ask for more general and organized feedback at ]... but as that page says, it's not a step to take lightly. -- ] 17:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
*E/C applied. ] ] 19:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::{{u|Counterfeit Purses}}, please be aware that the ] article was kept in a recent Articles for Deletion debate, so the consensus of the community is that he is notable. Edit warring to keep his name off the alumni list is a ''really bad idea''. ] (]) 20:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::@] No problem, I've already given up. I would argue that ] applies here, but there's no sense in pushing against the tide. If you're content to have the lede section of Gilman School include "prominent graduates including "alleged murderer Luigi Mangione", I guess that's fine. It seems to be an unusual thing to include and an obvious case of undue weight given to something that is in the news at the moment. Perhaps someone should start a Wikiproject to add famous murderers to the ledes of other schools? ] (]) 22:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::{{u|Counterfeit Purses}}, in my view, ] is among our most misunderstood policy documents. It begins {{tpq|In principle, all Misplaced Pages articles should contain up-to-date information. Editors are also encouraged to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events.}} I believe that Mangione is notable, the evolving article is acceptable, and his name belongs in the alumni list. Many, many "bad people" are listed as alumni in countless school articles, and it is not at all unusual. The only unusual thing here is that the lead of this particular school article lists alumni, and so I have removed them from the lead. ] (]) 01:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I'm glad that misunderstanding WP:NOTNEWS is so common because I am going to continue to misunderstand it. I see that Liz Luigi Mangione from the lede before you removed the rest of the list. Acknowledging again that I have given up hope that Mangione will be removed from this article, let me ask you what you think the purpose of these alumni lists is? Including Mangione is an editorial decision. We don't include all notable alumni in these lists, so why should we include Mangione, and why now? It's too soon to know if he will have lasting relevance. ] (]) 04:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::{{tqq|We don't include all notable alumni in these lists}} Why not? If someone is Wikinotable and went to a Wikinotable school, then they belong in the "Notable alumni" section of that school's page, ] - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::@] I'm not saying "we shouldn't", I'm saying "we don't". We don't include every notable alumnus in these lists, nor should we because it would lead to long, unhelpful lists stuck in the middle of articles about the schools. ] (]) 04:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::If an alumni list bloats an article, it can be split out. See ]. 11:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC) (Oops, signing) ] (]) 16:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Of course that's always an option, but what I am saying is that it isn't desirable to have every alumnus listed in an article for a school. Ideally, it would be a selection of alumni who have made significant achievements in their field. Otherwise, it's just trivia. Am I wrong? ] (]) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Yes. You're making a value judgment that some alumni (with articles, else they most definitely should not be included) are more notable than others. That is ]. ] (]) 20:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::Yes, that's called editorial judgment. Just like deciding not to include every known fact about something in an article. At some point, it is just trivia. Misplaced Pages is not a database. That info would probably be welcome over on Wikidata, which is a database. Alternatively, someone could just add ] (in this case). ] (]) 20:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::And a new user, who doesn't understand categories and has no idea Wikidata exists, is relying on the list on the page. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


=== Zoes input === == Vandal encounter ==


] seems to be a vandal who seems to be ready to start an edit war. I have reverted their disruptive edits, and they have begun to add them back.
As an admin who frequently posts on the Reference Desk, I think the deletions and the block were completely out of line. SCZenz does not ] the RD, and it is not his/her responsbility to police it. The Reference Desk is, indeed, a fun place, where there are a lot of jokes, but it is also a serious place where lots of questions get answered. Dirk's comment was hardly over the line, and, in fact, was probably perfectly reasonable. I strongly oppose SCZenz's actions, and would suggest taking it to the RD's Talk pages before repeating them. ]|] 17:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


diffs: </nowiki>] </nowiki>] </nowiki>] </nowiki>]
:This surprises me. However, without administrative consensus, I will not continue as I have been. I've tried to clarify my actions and the reasons for them on your talk page. -- ] 18:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


Please see ]. SCZenz and I have had a discussion on our Talk pages, and we are looking for further consensus. ]|] 18:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC) I would have put this at AIV, but I have no clue how to edit source. ] (]) 23:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)


:{{not done}} - Not an admin - I hate to be that person but unfortunately you've not sufficiently warned them, They've only received one warning and their edits aren't gross vandalism so this would only be declined by an admin anyway, If they continue I'll report them to AIV, Thanks, –]<sup>]</sup> 23:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:SCZenz, that you would be selective was a bit too specific, but the point I was making is that unless this is done consistently there is the risk of unfair selectiveness. To avoid this, it would have to be done by a larger group of people. And to avoid people getting too upset about it, it would have to be done by consensus and we're a long way from that. So far you haven't done too much deleting (you're nowhere near deleting all the of-topic remarks), and you've already got LightCurrent, StuRat and me, three of the most active people on the ref desk, on your neck. Step it up and the ref desk will become one big edit war zone. Don't step it up and you're being selective. The deletion at hand here was one that was much less off-topic than a whole lot of other stuff, so why did you delete this specific one? If you keep this up I will be tempted to start a revolt by applying your rules (''your'' rules!) consistently.
::Ah, I see. Thank you! This has been noted for the future. Thank you, again! ] (]) 23:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:You talk about getting the ref desk back on course, but we've both started working on it just over a year ago, and it was the same then as it is now, which is part of the reason I liked it so much.
:::You're welcome, Happy editing, Thanks, –]<sup>]</sup> 23:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:And for the last time, it wasn't a juvenile penis joke. It wasn't a joke. And the other half was informative. But you ''have'' now confessed that that was the (extra) reason for deleting it. And that is what I mean by 'selective'.
:As for the opinion of admins, like I said, it's the opinion of people active at the ref desk that counts, irrespective of whether they're admins. People need to know what they are talking about. ] 19:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


== User:Glenn103 ==
:The only people here who know about the ref desk are LightCurrent, StuRat, Anchoress, me, and to a lesser extent Gandalf 61, Zoe and you. And between the seven of us, there is not quite a consensus. Actually, most agree with me. ] 19:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
{{userlinks|Glenn103}} has been mass creating unsourced stubs about Cyrillic letters, most of which have been draftified. They've also disruptively edited in the past, such as: <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ])</span> 01:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:Most of these pages don't even make any sense (eg.: ]). The user also ignores any notice about his articles being moved to draftspace by simply recreating duplicates of them (eg.: ] & ]). Immediate action may be needed. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 07:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::Given a uw-create4im with directions to come here, let's see what happens. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::They've continued editing, this time adding infoboxes to the articles, so I don't think the warning worked... <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ])</span> 08:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I have blocked them from article space and page moves, and will leave note on talk page to come here. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 15:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Honestly, this almost feels like trolling. Their basic procedure seems to be: pick a random Cyrillic letter. Combine it with a random diacritic. Write a short stub on the combination, saying effectively "this letter combination is not used anywhere." The occasional historical mentions ("this combination was used in such-and-such obscure Siberian language") are completely unsourced, of course. (Everything is unsourced.) ] (]) 04:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


:Excuse me for detracting from the report, but this was your 4th edit, your last edit was in January 2016... how have you found yourself here of all places?
::Excuse me? Are you saying that people who don't edit the ref desk aren't fit to comment? You are bascially saying Samir and others don't know what they are talking about. If you are going to wield such accusations you may want to do so in the open. Personally I agree totally with SCZenz and just because you Stu and LightCurrent think irrelevent penis jokes are an appropriate thing does not make you correct. ] | ] 19:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
:I mean you might have a point, but wow. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 04:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Similar behavior to {{checkuser|PickleMan500}} and other socks puppeted by {{checkuser|Abrown1019}}, which also made tons of drafts on Cyrillic characters that cited few sources (and none with in-depth coverage). Most drafts have been ]'d, of course, so only those with admin perms can verify the deleted contribs. <small>Since these socks have been banned (]), I haven't notified them of this discussion.</small> ] (] '''·''' ]) 17:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


== North Korean involvement in Russian-Ukraine war discussion ==
:::You obviously haven't been paying attention. We all agree that certain Ref Desk content may be inappropriate. What we disagree with is that an individual Admin has the right to decide unilaterally which content that is, remove it, and block any user who happens to disagree. And yes, we do feel that people who actually contribute to a project should have more say on the rules for how that project is managed than those who never, or only rarely, contribute. This is because it's very easy to come up with strict rules for others, so long as those rules never apply to you. And, if you never contribute to the Ref Desk, then those rules don't apply to you. ] 21:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


The inclusion of North Korea as a belligerent in the infobox for the "Russian invasion of Ukraine" article has been a point of extensive and protracted discussion since September. A formal Request for Comment (RfC) on this matter ran for several weeks and was closed with a clear consensus to include North Korea as a combatant based on reliable sources and expert analysis. However, despite the closure, the discussion has continued unabated across multiple threads, with certain editors repeatedly rehashing resolved points and questioning the validity of reliable sources, leading to significant disruption.
:::Just like to say, in the spirit of standing up and being counted, that ''I'' don't have any problems with penis jokes (relevant or otherwise) on the RDs either. And also to point out the SCZenz's proposed criteria for deletion are far wider than just jokes - his criteria for deletion include "comments that are off-topic, opinion, or argumentative". ] 21:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


'''Key Points:'''
::::AAAAAARGH!! There was no penis joke! ] 11:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


# '''Prolonged Discussions and RfC Closure:'''
::I hope it doesn't turn into ''that'' sort of pissing contest. I regularly work the reference desk, and I happen to agree with the practice of trimming out the really off-topic potty humour. You're welcome to be funny (within reason) if you're also being helpful. Otherwise, do try to remember that the Ref Desk is one place where a lot of new people may get their first exposure to Misplaced Pages, and that filling it with in-jokes and off-colour, off-topic humour is not exactly putting our best foot (or best face) forward.
#* The RfC on North Korea's inclusion was conducted thoroughly, with a wide range of arguments presented by both sides.
#* The closing administrator, S Marshall, determined there was a clear consensus to include North Korea as a belligerent based on reliable sources and the strength of arguments.
#* The close explicitly allowed for reevaluation if new battlefield events or sources emerged, but no substantial new evidence has invalidated the prior consensus.
# '''Ongoing Disruption:'''
#* Despite the RfC's resolution, the same arguments are being repeated across multiple threads, often by the same editors.
#* This behavior includes undermining reliable sources, misrepresenting their content, and insisting on a higher standard of verification (e.g., requiring firsthand evidence of North Korean combat, which is unreasonable given the context).
# '''Reliable Sources Confirming North Korean Involvement:'''
#* Multiple reputable outlets, including the BBC, Reuters, and Pentagon statements, confirm North Korean military involvement and casualties in the conflict.
#* Experts from institutions like Chatham House and RUSI have explicitly stated North Korea's role in combat, aligning with the community's decision.
# '''Impact on the Community:'''
#* The continued disruption consumes editor time and resources, detracting from the article's improvement.
#* These actions disregard Misplaced Pages's consensus-building principles and guidelines for resolving disputes. This dispute has been ongoing for months, with multiple threads being opened and closed on the same topic.


'''Request for Administrative Action:'''
::On a related note, I think it's a really ''bad'' idea to edit war just to ensure that a stupid joke stays on the page. How, and who, does that help? What's the point of making that effort, exactly? ](]) 19:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


I respectfully request that administrators address the following issues:
:::If nobody does anything to stop this sort of unilateral action by individual Admins, then they will continue with this obnoxious behavior. ] 21:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


# Enforce the consensus reached in the closed RfC, as no new evidence significantly alters the previous conclusions.
::::How about if I say I agree with the action? It's no longer 'unilateral' &ndash; and how I ''hate'' to see that word dragged out every time someone makes a decision &ndash; now. Where does the edit warring over Dirk's foreskin (in answer to a fashion question, for goodness' sake!) fit in on your scale of 'obnoxious' behaviour? '''How does having that comment on the page make the Reference Desk more useful to anyone?''' ](]) 22:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
# Discourage editors from rehashing resolved discussions, particularly when arguments have been repeatedly addressed and dismissed.
# Consider imposing a topic ban or other appropriate measures on editors who persist in disrupting the article with repetitive or bad-faith arguments.


This matter has been discussed exhaustively, and it is essential to prioritize Misplaced Pages's goals of maintaining a high-quality, well-sourced, and consensus-driven encyclopedia.
:::::It's still unilateral in that he didn't ask anyone '''BEFORE''' deleting the comment and blocking the user. The most obnoxious part is the block, over what was a very minor issue, if even an issue at all. ] 22:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
UPDATE: I just noticed that North Korea was removed as a belligerent and added to the 'supported by' section, completely violating the consensus.
] (]) 08:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:Since this report isn't really about an incident and your request is directed towards admins, I think this complaint would be better placed at ] rather than ANI. It will also need more specifics, which articles, which edits, which editors. You'll need to provide that. I also question whether or not these are content standards that the community can't handle on their own. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::I was going to post it at ] but it said: "'''This noticeboard is for issues affecting administrators generally – announcements, notifications, information, and other matters of''' ''general administrator interest.''
::If your post is about a '''specific problem you have''' (a '''dispute''', user, help request, or other narrow issue needing an administrator), you should post it at the ''']''' (ANI) instead. Thank you."
::I posted it on ANI beecause my specific problem was this dispute ] (]) 12:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The original post in this thread appears to resemble LLM output. GPTzero confirms this impression, rating text as "99% probability AI generated". Using AI to generate ANI submissions is highly inappropriate. ] (]) 18:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Even when a message appears to be AI-generated, I think it is worth considering whether or not it is pointing out an actual problem. I think editors might be ignoring the results of an RFC, I just don't think asking for administrators to monitor a subject area, without identifying specific articles, is a feasible solution. It does seem like, possibly, a point that could come up in a complaint at AE regarding the Ukraine CTOP area. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:55, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I had a peek and it's a messy RfC and, as is generally the case with a messy RfC had a very involved closure message which seems to reflect that the closer felt constrained by the framing of the RfC. I didn't see any immediate indication in the edit history that anyone had tried to implement the RfC result and been rebuffed (although I might have missed it). So there's some smoke here but, I think, not a ton of fire. ] (]) 20:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Liz, I don't disagree but I'm not at all convinced that use of AI is a positive contribution to CTOP areas. ] (]) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::It was written with AI assistance. Not all AI. ai detectors aren’t considered reliable, because you can put the U.S. constitution through one and it says 100% AI generated. Regardless, whether it’s AI or not has nothing to do with the topic. It’s just that there’a been so many discussions and when I checked the info box it said ‘supported by”, violating the consensus of the RFC ] (]) 12:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I think the underlying issue here is that if you use AI to generate text which looks like obvious AI output then readers will wonder "does the end user even have sufficient English to understand what the AI has generated for them?" and "did the end user understand the material prior to deciding to employ AI?". Thus if a user is fluent in English, as you obviously are, it will always be better to communicate in your own voice.
:::::::At the end of the day, a user making a valid point in their own voice is generally speaking going to be taken more seriously than a user employing LLM output.
:::::::There are plenty of other reasons for users not to employ AI (see the recent thread here for extensive coverage) but the argument above seems like a good practical reason for fluent English speakers to always prefer using their own voice.
:::::::You will see from the recent thread that many users here are vehemently against AI use. ] (]) 15:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I understood the material very well, its not like I just used 100% AI out of nowhere. I know the context. I have been involved in this discussion since September. ] (]) 16:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::It's a respect thing. It's disrespectful of other editors to make them read chatbot output rather than ''your'' words. ] (]) 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Rc2barrington's user page says {{tq|This user believes in the bright future AI and robotics will bring}}, so there's probably no point in arguing here. However, I simply observe that in any kind of discussion where you're trying to convince other people, don't use a method that aggravates a significant number of readers (probably a significant ''majority'' of readers). It really is that simple. ] (]) 19:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


== Concern About a New Contributor ==
::::::He did ask someone '''BEFORE''' he deleted it. You just didn't know about it. So no, it wasn't unilateral. ] | ] 23:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
{{atop|Suspected editor was indeed a sock. Unnecessary drama created by all-too zealous reporting--let this be the end of it. ] (]) 21:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
{{userlinks|Kriji Sehamati}}


Dear Wikipedians,
:::::::Really ? Who did he ask about the specific item before he deleted it ? Can you provide a link ? ] 06:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


I hope you’re doing well. I wanted to inform you about a new contributor @], despite lacking experience, has repeatedly attempted to vandalize multiple articles. These articles were properly aligned with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines and reviewed by experienced contributors, but he/she seemed unwilling to understand or respect their adherence to the policies.
::::::::Not every conversation about this has taken place on Misplaced Pages Stu. The is no link. 07:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


I believe your experience could help address this situation effectively.
:::::::::Then there is no proof that any such conversation ever existed, is there ? Please sign your posts. ] 07:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


Looking forward to your advice on how to proceed.
::I take strong exception to the suggestion that only those with substantial RD experience can comment on its purpose and direction. But to assuage that criticism, I'll weigh in. I have previously been a substantial contributor at the Science RD, not so much anymore. Besides all the in-jokes about bay-gulls and such, I have found myself turned off by the rather chauvinist tone, whose most extreme form was seen in the thread (previously discussed here) about how a man could force his girlfriend into a sex act she was not comfortable with. I would estimate that at least a third of the "medical" questions there concern male genitals. Let me be clear that I don't propose censoring the RD. I do propose that all RD contributors consider that people from a wide variety of backgrounds see it, and that they address topics with appropriate maturity. --]<font color="green">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 23:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


Thankyou! ]] 15:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::OK, let's say this applied to you. We will say a new position is created, called Admin_Judge. They don't do anything but criticize the actions of Admins, delete and undo what Admins do, and threaten and/or block Admins. They make up their own rules for how Admins must behave, the Admins themselves no longer have any say. If they "discuss" things with Admins, it's only telling the Admins how it's going to be, they don't actually listen to anything an Admin says, no matter how thoroughly the actions of the Admin_Judges are shown to be bad for Misplaced Pages and a violation of policy. Is this something you would find pleasant ? Would you remain willing to work as an Admin ? ] 06:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


:"Vandalize" is a very loaded word here with a specific meaning. As far as I can tell, what they've done is nominate 4 articles for deletion, and your has been to accuse them of vandalism, ignoring dispute resolution procedures and making personal attacks – none of which I can see at a glance through their contributions.
::::Hey thats a damn good idea Stu: an Admin behaviour review committee made up from non Admins only! Why not put it on the PumP?--] 06:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
:Perhaps if you supplied ] of this behaviour, someone would be able to help? If your issue is that they've nominated 4 articles of which you are a major contributor ''and'' are doing so by going through your contributions in order to find articles to nominate for deletion with specious reasons, then this board would be the place to come. If not, then making your arguments for keeping the articles on the AfDs in question would be your best bet.
:By the way is forum shopping. Stop that. ] (]) 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:(ec) This is an odd one. As S-Aura failed to provide diffs, I looked at Kriji Sehamati's contribution history. New account (9 Dec) began editing today, created two drafts and made a bunch of edits to those. Then began adding COI tags to articles S-Aura wrote, nominated those articles for deletion, and then left a template on S-Aura's talk page. Really seems to be something weird going on here between those two. (In addition to opening this ANI thread, S-Aura asked for help with basically the same message on the talk pages of Ipigott, Ryan shell, CFA, and BusterD, and S-Aura opened same complaint at AN.) ]&nbsp;] 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::I am concerned that ]’s actions, including unjustified deletion nominations and spamming, are disruptive and violate Misplaced Pages’s guidelines.
::She seems to lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related ] and ]. ]] 16:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::You were asked to provide diffs. You did, almost, but then reverted yourself. Those diffs (well, the ones before those diffs) are just the other user nominating articles for deletion (which is allowed) or tagging them for what they believe to be conflict of interest edits (which is also allowed).
:::Please provide some actual evidence that the other user is engaging in chronic, intractable behaviour, rather than just not editing how you would like them to. ] (]) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Here are some diffs highlighting her problematic edits. However, I believe that many of her contributions may be in violation of Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. It appears she has specifically targeted me and added the COI tag multiple times to the same page. I would appreciate it if you could review her actions more thoroughly:
:::: •
:::: •
:::: •
:::: •
::::and many more
::::Thankyou! ]] 17:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::We wouldn't generally treat an AfD as vandalism. ] (]) 17:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I understand your point about AfDs not generally being treated as vandalism. However, I noticed that the major contribution history of the user seems suspicious. ]] 17:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Not from where anybody else is standing so far. I get that you're upset to have four articles of yours nominated for deletion, and if you have any evidence ''at all'' that you are being deliberately targeted by the other editor, then people will very much act on that. Please provide it. ] (]) 17:58, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I am here to contribute and edit articles in accordance with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. However, today a new user targeted me and falsely blamed me for actions that are not accurate. I believe this is unfair and not in line with the collaborative nature of the platform. ]] 18:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Please provide evidence of this. ] (]) 18:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Please check! ]] 18:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::The articles that have been nominated for deletion discussion have been reviewed by experienced contributors. These discussions involve articles about judges and lawyers, under ], a valid criterion according to Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. Therefore, the deletion decision was made after carefully reviewing these articles. ]] 18:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Honestly it looks like this user, rightly or wrongly, believes you have a conflict of interest and are acting on the basis of that assumption. I would suggest, if you don't have a CoI, talking to them about this and maybe asking why they've come to this conclusion. ] (]) 18:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::They have just started targeting my contributions, and I tried to inform her about the situation. However, she is acting as if she knows everything about Misplaced Pages and is dismissing my concerns. ]] 18:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
{{od}}
:{{ping|Kriji Sehamati}} hasn't edited since their AfD spree earlier today, let's wait and see what their response here is when they return to editing. ]&nbsp;] 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*We need to stop focusing on the OP's calling this vandalism; it is not. I've changed the header to reflect that. That said, the new user's edits ''are'' problematic and merit scrutiny. As for the UPE stuff, I've removed that post from the OP's Talk page; it's nonsensical coming from a new user and does not merit a response.--] (]) 18:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*It is, of course, not vandalism to nominate articles for AFD discussions as long as a legitimate deletion rationale is provided and the article hasn't just been discussed at a recent AFD. However, I don't think it's a good sign when a brand new editor claims to understand all of Misplaced Pages policies and whose first actions are to nominate articles at AFDs. They are almost never an actual new editor, especially when they know how to even set up an AFD or are familiar with using Twinkle on their first day of editing. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*:It seems that she is not new to Misplaced Pages and might be operating multiple accounts. It appears she has an issue with one of my contributions, as she created her account just 15 days ago, yet she already has a good understanding of tools like Twinkle and AfD procedures. This level of familiarity suggests prior experience on the platform. I am now requesting her account to be blocked as I am completely disturbed by her repeated allegations and disruptive behavior. ]] 11:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::I am now genuinely confused—if all my contributions are not good, then why am I even here? Were the experienced editors who reviewed and approved these pages also mistaken? A newcomer, who joined just recently, is now disrupting and questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors. This situation is deeply discouraging. ]] 11:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::Please resolve this situation—either block her for her disruptive behavior. How can i continue working under such constant targeting and stress ? ]] 12:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::User:S-Aura, you seem to be making unsupported personal attacks against ]. You should provide specific evidence of wrongdoing, including diffs, or your arguments here will fall on deaf ears (and bring consequences for you). Meanwhile, as a filer on ANI, you have brought all your own edits to close scrutiny by the community. You may have to face that smart people disagree, and this is how we sort disagreements out on English Misplaced Pages. You are not required to edit, but we encourage you to do so. Nobody is going to block Kriji Sehamati at this point, because you've given us no reason to do so. ] (]) 12:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::Meanwhile, in the last few minutes S-Aura has disruptively about this exact issue on this same board, which by another editor. This is intentional disruption. ] (]) 12:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::As to the question "Why am I here?", poets and artists have been trying to answer this question for eons. Epistemology is outside the scope of this board, but there are articles about it. Show up to edit if you want to, but expect disagreement from time to time. (That's actually a sound answer to any epistemology question as well.) ] (]) 12:16, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::Dear @],
*:::::It means I have been proven wrong, and that user’s contributions have been more focused on me, which is quite insufficient to catch someone’s lie that she is pretending to be new, when in fact she is old.
*:::::Also, I am not against AfD; I am simply expressing my opinion. ]] 13:12, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Could you please rephrase your point here? I don't understand. While it's okay to be suspicious that this editor is somehow socking or doing something else deceptive due to the familiarity, it seems unacceptable to deliberately accuse them of such repeatedly without firmer evidence. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::Dear @],
*:::::::I am not engaged in paid activities on Misplaced Pages, and she claimed that I am connected with the subject, who is a judge, lawyer, etc. You all should understand that this is not a trivial matter; justice is a very respected position. Making such allegations can escalate court cases. I would like to remind you of the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI case. ]] 13:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::One thing you need to understand immediately is you should never make another post that sounds vaguely like a legal threat, as you've just done above. ] That intonation is seriously not helping us decide who's right or wrong here. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::Okay! ]] 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::I will caution you that this is tiptoeing right up to the edge of ] and you'd be advised to avoid making legal threats. ] (]) 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::Dear @],
*:::::::::I am merely showing that she can potentially do something inappropriate. I am following the guidelines and not making any legal threats. ]] 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::Accusing another editor of potentially making legal threats is not much better, when there is no concrete evidence that they would do so. Being interested in articles about judges does not suffice. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::The page of Justice ], who had conducted over the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI court hearing, was also created by me. ]] 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::<del>State plainly what the implication you are making here is, because what I'm hearing is "I'm familiar with people who have hit Misplaced Pages with a mallet in court before, and I can make sure it happens again".</del> <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::This is becoming a rabbit hole. I urge you not to pursue the rabbit further. ] (]) 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::::Good call, I'll retract the above. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::No, that is not what I am implying. ]] 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::No one has said your contributions are not good. However, it should be noted that a draft being accepted at AfC or a new page having been ] does not guarantee greater scrutiny would not result in a valid AfD nomination. That said, echoing others here it's clear something problematic is up with this user's behavior. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 12:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::You can't both criticize someone for {{tq|lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related ] and ]}}, and then argue that she is too familiar with the platform to be a newcomer for knowing how to file an AfD. I wouldn't be surprised if most people here knew how to file an AfD before knowing all 14 notability guidelines by heart. ] (] · ]) 12:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::There are detailed instructions on filing an AfD that can be found by googling "how can I get a Misplaced Pages page deleted" - if somebody had some personal reason for wanting to have pages removed it doesn't strain credibility to think that's why they created a WP account and that they just followed the very clear instructions on the appropriate pages.
*:::In fact that might explain why some of the AfD filings were reasonable and some were, on their face, incorrectly filed. If you looked up the AfD ''process'' but not ''criteria'' that is the likely outcome. That's why I find the "new user files AfDs must be a sock" idea here somewhat uncompelling. ] (]) 13:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*I believe we're entering boomerang territory at this point. Opinions? ] (]) 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:I think OP is upset that a cluster of their articles were put up at AfD. This in itself is understandable, but while there's reason to think there might be mischief by Kriji Sehamati, we don't have any real evidence of it. We either need the OP to make it clearer what misconduct, if any, has occurred, or they need to ]. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::The OP has been intentionally disruptive (by creating a new ANI thread which was reverted), and this thread is going nowhere. IMHO, there's nothing ANI can do here. Everything I'm reading about should be resolved at the page talk and user talk level, in my opinion. The AfDs are underway. If dispute resolution is needed, fine. Nobody is harming S-Aura. S-Aura can't come crying to ANI (or four random user talk pages like mine) anytime someone merely disagrees with them. ] (]) 14:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::I'd have said close with trout for all if not for creating the second thread at AN/I. Based on that I'd say the OP should be formally cautioned against such antics in the future. ] (]) 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::I should have added that I largely hold with Remsense in their position. ] (]) 14:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::] is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages, but we don’t have any evidence because understanding Misplaced Pages’s AfD process so quickly can be a bit challenging. I have no problem with AfD regarding my contributions, and it’s a good thing that experienced contributors are giving their feedback. If you believe that the kriji is 100% correct and her activity is not suspicious, then this discussion should be closed. ]] 14:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::You need to stop insisting this is definitely the case if you don't have any evidence for it, period. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 14:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::S-Aura, how did you make the determination {{tq|User:Kriji Sehamati‬ is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages}}? Please share your process. That's a personal attack, and requires proof to prevent you from being in violation of ]. I've looked at the AfDs and they seem reasonable to me. When you've provided strong sources the article is being kept. So far the jury is out on the others. Both of you seem to be writing articles about obscure living persons who wouldn't normally (by my cursory reading) have a Misplaced Pages article about them because reliable sourcing is not readily found. When I see that, I must suspect COI or undeclared unpaid editing here, but nobody's admitting to it. ] (]) 15:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::S-Aura's continuing to issue personal attacks makes it more difficult for us to just close this (without some form of consequence for the editor making unproven personal attacks after they've been warned repeatedly). ] (]) 15:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::I have made a level-four user talk page warning for the personal attack. FYI. We've been very nice about this up 'til now, but we need to stop being so kind. Doing foolish things has real world consequences. ] (]) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
* Both editors' apparent use of AI is certainly disruptive. If it continues, it should lead to blocks. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 15:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:No personal hate intended, but I just found this and thought it would be worth checking. ]] 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::It would be nice if you could explain the significance for those who do not speak Hausa. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::She had made contributions to pages in other languages a few months ago. I am attaching her contributions link. ]] 16:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::How does this constitute evidence of sockpuppetry if we aren't to know what exactly happened? There's a reason we don't just automatically block anybody who is blocked on another language wiki, and I looked through the edits some and didn't find anything outrageous that made it past the language barrier. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::I agree that it’s important to ensure we have solid evidence before making conclusions. I appreciate your perspective on not automatically blocking users based on blocks from other language wikis. ]] 17:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Please don't reply to me or others using ChatGPT. It is flat-out rude. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
* '''Support BOOMERANG''' - I've been uninvoled and have mainly just been watching the back-and-forths, but the personal attacks and ] mindset, such as "questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors", concerns me. Not sure for how long, but I don't think anything longer than a months is appropriate given the circumstances. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 15:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*This whole thread, but especially the 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC) comment, feels like the OP is just throwing literally everything at the wall to see what sticks. But, worse, what is being thrown at the wall lacks any significant body of evidence to support. I note that a personal attack warning has been given for the continued unfounded accusations being presented, which I think is a good move. I don't support a block at this point, although if I was the OP I would withdraw this complaint and/or drop the stick and walk away from this topic as a matter of urgency to avoid continuing to make the situation worse. ] (]) 17:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== Darkwarriorblake making aspersions ==
::::I think you are forgetting that I have been an editor for a long time, and an admin for a very short time. --]<font color="green">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 14:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
{{atop|result=The OP says they don't care any more which I'm reading as a withdrawal and the other party says they won't be responding again so I'm closing this discussion. My only comment is that both editors in this dispute should have brought this to the article talk page to talk this disagreement out. I don't know if the differences would be resolved but this is what we advise editors to do when their edits are reverted. Now I just have to get that scene in the movie out of my mind. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
Postscript: Ah, someone just close this, I don't care any more. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 22:56, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
----
I'm posting here after a particularly underwhelming interaction with an editor in the form of edit summaries. I'll need to provide the context of a brief content dispute which hopefully won't take too long and then get to the point. I'm not asking for anyone to take my side in the dispute.


'']'' is a widely acclaimed comedy film from 1983, which is also widely acknowledged to have problematic elements by modern standards, including a scene in which the villain of the piece, stuck in a gorilla costume, is locked in a cage with a real gorilla, which is implied to sexually penetrate him without his consent.
:::::Are you saying you haven't yet been an Admin long enough to be corrupted by the power ? ] 16:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


The article states that ] demurred being cast in the role upon finding that out. for this claim is a ] on ], which contains the sentence
:::As for chauvinistic questions, we now have two feminists as Ref Desk regulars, one sexually liberal and one conservative, so that should provide balance there. I would suspect that most Ref Desk readers are young males, however, as surfing the web in general is mostly a young male thing. So, we would expect to get lots of questions relevant to young males, who would be uncomfortable asking them in an environment that wasn't anonymous. I think it's a good thing to be able to answer questions like "Is it unhealthy if a male doesn't ejaculate regularly". Note that this question might have been asked by a girl, who is being pressured by her b/f into sex using this argument. I have suggested a separate Sexuality Ref Desk, however, to shield the squeamish from such questions and answers. ] 06:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
: ''Reportedly, Liddy was on board until he got to the part where Beeks .''
Reportedly ''by whom'' is not mentioned, let alone is there a direct quotation from Liddy. Plus as can be seen the words "becomes a gorilla's mate" are linked to a very poor quality, hand-held video of the scene in question playing on a television. This alone should be enough to raise serious questions about the use of this "source" in a featured article.


The content dispute began when I changed it like this () with the comment ''Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs'':
::::I agree this question is appropriate for the RD, which is why I stated "Let me be clear that I don't propose censoring the RD." Rather, I asked that this type of question be approached in a mature fashion. And very often, they are handled appropriately already. Unfortunately, there are also occasions in which this does not seem to be the case. --]<font color="green">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 14:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
{{text diff|Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla.|Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks is raped by a gorilla.}}


This was reverted () by {{u|Darkwarriorblake}} with the comment ''not what the source says''.
:::::Agreed. I don't think it's possible to get 100% compliance with any rule, however. This doesn't mean that we should start deleting comments and blocking users for those few "violations", however, as some Admins want to do. ] 14:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


After thinking about it a moment I came to the conclusion described above about the quality of the source, and decided that it was better out than in, which is what I should have done in the first place.()
::::::The problem of which would be that one doesn't know what might get deleted unless it's done consistently according to a clear set of rules about which some sort of consensus has been reached. One central problem is that it is difficult to keep track of what is being deleted. The histories of the ref desks are way too long to dig through. If some people start to delete stuff it might seem to others that that is normal behaviour. Including others who don't know or understand the rules (if any). And that will (not 'may' but 'will') result in people deleting stuff they don't like. Coming up with a way to keep tabs on deletions is something that should be done first. We need that at the ref desk anyway, because people probably do it already, considering how much vandalism there is on Misplaced Pages. Encouraging them by giving the wrong example is a very bad idea. ] 11:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


{{text diff|...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks. Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla. Paul Gleason took the role;...|...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks with Paul Gleason eventually taking the role;...}}
:::::::Agreed. I wonder how one could technically track deletions, though. Perhaps any edit where the result is, say more than 100 bytes shorter than the starting length ? That wouldn't be perfect, but better than no check, I suppose. A "D" could appear in front of such edits in the history, where the "N" for new or "m" for minor edit goes now. We could also allow editors to self identify deletions as they do for minor edits. I wouldn't expect them to do so consistently, though, so the size change check would also be needed. ] 12:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
=== Justanother's input ===
I missed the bulk of this discussion but as a regular on the subject board I want to make my feelings known.


My accompanying comment was ''(a) That was the source's voice, not Liddy's. It's called a euphemism. Demonstrable by how it links to a clip of the scene in which a man is raped by a gorilla. (b) Source says "reportedly" for this claim, without evidence. Poor quality source. Removing claim''
Most importantly: While I appreciate SCZenz' desire to improve wikipedia and his efforts to do so, I '''strongly oppose''' arbitrary censorship. I, personally, am more than willing to put up with a *possibly irrelevant* penis joke (though it actually did have some relevance) in order to protect my own right to make comments as I see fit (fit as being relevant to the discussion at hand although perhaps not popular with some wikipedians).


That was reverted by Darkwarriorblake () with the comment ''Nothing wrong with Indiewire as a source, if there is I'd raise it at ]. Until then, there's a talk page for you to use per ]. Your comments sound agenda driven and therefore not Neutral.''
Other than that, I think that many, if not most, of the contributors are experienced wikipedians and are perfectly capable of policing the desk and dealing with disruptive influences. But it important to remember that one reason many of us like to hang out there is the jokes and banter. Only a part of the reason to be sure but part nonetheless. The intellectual stimulation and, often the tangents, have value to us. If they don't then we can ignore them.


This is where the reason for me to raise this at this board begins, because that's solidly an example of ]. It came on top of a revert which reintroduced a claim cited to a rumor in a blog post into a featured article, but that's really not my concern, because if the champions of the featured article process have decided that it's somehow acceptable for our "best" content then I'm just going to move on to something else rather than argue.
Also, I think that article talk page rules are not analoguous and do not apply. The purpose of article talk pages is to develop an article that complies with wikipedia policy; it is important that they honor those policies. The purpose of the reference desk is to either answer a question or steer the questioner toward the answer. The postings there, especially on the misc. desk, will often consist of original research and may not cite their sources. That is entirely appropriate. The Reference Desks are their own beasts and perhaps need additional policy developed. If such policy needs developing it must be developed through the normal review process.


There's one final back and forth which was enough to motivate me to post here. First, I reverted that revert (, my only time using the actual "Undo" button today), with this comment: ''a good source doesn't say "reportedly" (ie, spread a rumor), it specifies the origin of a fact. My only "agenda" is with a crap listicle being used as a reference, regardless of who published it. Take it to talk if you want to argue for the continued inclusion of a trash ref in a featured article, or source the claim properly yourself''.
--] 14:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


This was reverted - again - by Darkwarriorblake () with the comment '' How are you an admin? "rape played for laughs" is an agenda, this went through FA as is so ] and ] apply. You must go to the talk page, not I. I don't know if you're going through a bad time or something but this isn't how an admin should be acting or communicating with others, up to and including ]''
===Bishonen's proposal===
I note that ] is down to ascribing a "hidden agenda" to SCZenz, and ] to assuring us that the views of admins are of no account, since admins "would support one another against the user community" anyway. (I don't think he can read ANI much.) Nevertheless I want to register my opinion that this is a matter suitable for handling at this board, and not the kind of thing Thatcher or SCZenz have any need to involve ArbCom in. And I support SCZenz's actions. It goes without saying that the "user community" involved must feel free to request arbitration if they see handling via ANI as inherently unjust. If everything has been said—and having just read the entire thread, I don't see how it could possibly have not been—is it perhaps time for somebody to put one of those snazzy colored frames and stop-talking headings on the thread? ] | ] 03:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC).


At this point it's gone firmly into the realm of knee-jerk reversions, because if Darkwarriorblake took the time to read the article which they've (is this ]? Kind of feels that way), they would get down to the ] section. Which says "some critics have praised the film while highlighting elements that they believe aged poorly, including racial language, the use of blackface, and the implied rape of Beeks by a gorilla", cited to articles in four major publications. Or, you know, even .
===Geogre's view===
On the strange wrestling over talk vs. article pages, the reference desk is a project page. Project pages are like AN, AN/I, AfD, RFA, etc., so that explains the mystery of how they can require signatures, allow some wobbling toward chat, and yet be subject to the rules of staying on topic. Ultimately, we're back to the problem of Internet discussion in general: it takes two people to go off topic. If no one answers, applauds, or condemns the silly jokes and chat, if no one tries to answer the troll questions, then it all stops. When, however, two or three people have the same interest in chat and/or play, then their habits can ''overwhelm the original purpose,'' and that's when it becomes appropriate for the other folks to show up and 1) urge, 2) cajole, 3) enforce topicality.


So anyhow regardless of whether the Indiewire source is deemed suitable or not, I'm just wondering what the feeling here is about someone making goofy assertions on the record that another editor has "an agenda" (what agenda could it be?) and may not be emotionally stable, which really doesn't feel like ] at all. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 20:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
The RD pages have always been prone to "christians are stupid i think dont you" questions and "fags is going to hell" questions, as well as "I am taking a trivia test in a bar and I need to know who invented World War II." These questions invite smart aleck responses or adolescent banter. For the most part, the participants have an internal sense of when they're going off the beam, and therefore trolling questions tend to get no answers. However, because everyone is always new at Misplaced Pages, eventually those questions will find their own level, attract offended and amused and bored folks.
:Hrrm, this seems a bit excessive.
:*I've added a second source for the claim. Really this should've been the first option rather than removing the content.
:*The first summary was, as stated, "Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs". "Rape played for laughs" is a loaded comment and not something said in the article or the source text, so it's a personal opinion, it's not neutral, it's agenda-driven.
:*When this was reverted, the editor just removed the content entirely claiming IndieWire was unreliable. There is, as far as I'm aware, nothing wrong with Indiewire. I've since found a second source, the Telegraph, which is reliable per ].
:*The editor ignored WP: BRD when raised, and as an admin they should adhere to policy.
:*The editor states that they are an admin on their page. Assuming this is true, the aggressiveness of their edits, hyper focus on the single area, and use of words like "crap listicle" seemed out of line with what I, personally, would expect from an admin on Misplaced Pages, certainly someone who has been so for nearly two decades. Perhaps the edit summary wasn't the place to have that discussion but, as stated, they weren't adhering to WP: BRD to start a discussion, and in the interim the article needed putting back to the status quo.
:*I find accusations of OWNERSHIP often tend to come when people don't get their way. Which is fine. I have plenty of reversions on the page for people adding unsourced content and there are plenty of changes as well. I find someone removing sourced content and me putting the sourced content back to not ''really'' be something you can fling ownership at.
:*Within the context of the film, Beeks does become the romantic partner of the gorilla, it seemed more appropriate and encylcopedic text than just saying 'rape', and neither source I've added says that either.
:*Anyways, my edit history shows I'm a massive contributor and helper and it's nearly Xmas, and I don't feel like engaging with this any further, good luck Hex. ] (]) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::Of course you don't, having ignored the actual matter of your conduct that I'm raising here. Your comments about the content of the article are irrelevant. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 20:43, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*Hex's position is not wholly supported, although in the entire issue, their toolset is irrelevant. There was no incivility on either part, and an all-out edit war seems to have been averted.{{pb}}Fundamentally the change Hex wanted to make was pure OR; rape may have been intimated—or, as Hex themself admits, implied—but its never overtly stated and is a wholly loaded term. This is the interpretation of an editor, not of secondary sources. If there is a pron=blem with Indywire as a source—currently used in —take it to WP:RSN. If it's disputed that it's a high quality source per WP:FA?, then take it to WT:FAC. Accusations of OWNership are as unhelpful—and as much an aspersion—as accusations of agenda-led editing. In fact, for OWNership, Hex should read the relevant policy: here, it is WP:FAOWN, which not only allows for careful stewardship of featured material, but requires significant changes to the consensus version to be discussed on talk; I don't suppose there's any suggestion that introducing rape—particularly "played for laughs"—wouldn't be a significant addition.{{pb}}Really though, this is an overblown content dispute which should have started with ''one revert'' each, and ended on the talk page. --]'']''] 21:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*:"Never overtly stated... 'played for laughs' be a significant addition" - with John Landis, the director. {{talk quote|One of the executives was deeply appalled by a man being sexually molested by a gorilla. And I said you know, it's a joke and it goes by very quickly. But the first preview was very successful and it all went away. ''''}}
*:Feel free to amend the article on that basis. I'm certainly not interested in spending any more time on it. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 22:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


===Followup===
I agree with the rest of the site showing up to ask RD to stay on topic, but I think it's bad that we've gotten to the point where it becomes adversarial. Generally, RD has stopped chasing the bouncing balls without adversity when a gentle reminder comes in. Like chatter, belligerance takes two sides and bad timing. I think the ''intentions'' of David and SC are both pure. The way forward is for more folks to go to RD and keep an eye on when we start frolicking in the meadow and ''gently'' reminding each other that we need to stay on task. If it's fifty voices instead of a campaign, the chances of offense are lower. ] 13:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I just want to say that, now that we've had an ANI thread on the subjeect of Gordon Liddy's feelings about portraying the romantic partner of a gorilla, I can die happy.


While we're on the subject, recites that {{tq|Prior to his departure from the FBI in 1962, Liddy sought admission to various bars.}} I'm curious to know whether this is meant to imply that Liddy had a , and whether this could have had any bearing on the whole gorilla romantic partner situation. ]]
===Another late comment===
{{abot}}
My view is that there is a need to keep the Reference Desk from going off-topic and discussing irrelevant stuff. There should be a set of agreed guidelines put up for review to attain consensus, and then the opprobrium of those that don't like this won't fall on one user. If this feels too much like instruction creep, make it a general set of guidelines covering any 'desk' or 'noticeboard' (eg, ], ], ]). I also think that any admins and users regularly involved at the RD should talk to each other to get changes in the culture of 'jokes' and such like stuff. But those admin regulars at the RD should not get involved in blocking to 'control' the RD. Instead, they should post a notice elsewhere (]?), asking an uninvolved admin to judge when a block may be required. ] 16:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


== User Stationmanagerskidrow removing information on ] page ==
===Request for additional help===


Just want to echo the comments of those who've asked for additional experienced editors to help out at the RD. There's a bit of an ongoing clash there, with people arguing that it's more important to ''not have censorship'' than it is to ''keep the reference desk useful''. A couple blocks have been given for people making junvenile sex jokes there, and these blocks have drawn considerable criticism from some reference desk regulars. . Let's all remember that the reference desk needs to be ''extra friendly'' to new editors and the general public. More help is appreciated. ] ] 01:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


] is repeatedly removing information about a recent incident involving a Jewish DJ at ]. They say that it is incorrect information, even though it is sourced. The name also states clearly that this is a company account. Lastly, they have continued this behavior even after being warned on their talk page. ] (]) 03:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:Excuse me, why are you posting here? We are discussing things quite nicely on Talk:Reference Desk. Do you feel you are losing the argument?--] 01:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


::I feel that some unfortunate things are happening there. Some good things are happening there too, and I want to swing the balance toward the good. ] ] 01:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC) :User is now editing using ] ] (]) 03:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


::This is a content dispute and the article is being actively edited by many different editors. However, no discussion about the disagreements has occurred on the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::We're already discusing a consensus to ban sex jokes. As for there being a clash, we are managing to build a consensus for what is and what is not allowed, quite quickly. I would say half of the issues have now been decided. At this rate, we should be done in under a week. And everyone wants to keep the Ref Desk useful, that's not an issue at all. ] 01:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


That article probably should be speedied as an A7 for not containing any assertions of notability; which obscures that Stationmanagerskidrow appears to have been edit warring on it with an undisclosed COI, and presumably was ]ing as , and if so violated 3RR as well. It's probably best for me not to take administrative action here tonight as I won't be around later/tomorrow to deal with any followups, but something should be done here beyond just saying "take it to the talk page." ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 06:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:Friday, that's the first time I've seen anything close to:
:The page was longer, but sourced (all but?) soley to the station's site and it's been trimmed down to what it is now. Given the repeated edit-warring by IPs I've semi-protected the page for two days for now. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::] and ] message added . I'm just about to make myself thoroughly ] by seeing what I can do about the ] article. ] (]) 🦘 09:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


== Insults ==
::"it's more important to ''not have censorship'' than it is to ''keep the reference desk useful''"


:I must say it looks a bit like you're framing a debate topic out of a discussion. Everyone involved in the discussion wants to keep the RD useful. The question is HOW to make it MORE useful. Once again I must say I'm disappointed, this new twist is polarizing. -] 10:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


I'd like to report an incident related to ]. A person under IP already accused me of being "obsessed". Now someone (possibly the same person) . Please also see . I guess we can always agree to disagree with other people, but this is going a bit too far. Thank you. ] (]) 09:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Huh? Please don't let the talk ] spill over to here. If Friday wants experienced users, ] is not the right place to ask. I suggest ]. ] 10:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:Hello, Psychloppos. What action are you seeking to happen here? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:42, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:I understand- I only posted it here because it's somewhat related to the existing thread. ] ] 15:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::I have no idea which actions are warranted here. Maybe an admin could leave a message to this IP and this registered user and remind them that they should ] ? It would also be nice to remind them about ] and ]. Saying that I am "fuelled by an unhealthy obsession" or questioning my sanity do not seem to respect those guidelines. ] (]) 09:52, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
==Nlkyair012 and LLM chatbots ==
*{{Noping|Nlkyair012}}
This editor has been constantly using AI chatbots to respond and write messages. They are a single purpose account for glorifying the ] caste using unreliable ] era sources, I and several other experienced editors have taken time and effort to respond to their endless queries and ] generated using ChatGPT. They have posted AI generated walls of text on multiple noticeboards such as ] and ] and including here , accusing me of vandalism.


Despite my repeated requests and even a final warning to them (including a request by {{ping|ActivelyDisinterested}}) they are still continuing to do it. Their messages are repeating the same argument again and again and are frankly just ] that bring up fictitious guidelines or misrepresent the existing ones. Several editors have told them that Raj era sources are not reliable yet they continue to ask for more evidence on why that is the case based on AI generated claims of supposed academic value or neutrality. This is getting very disruptive and taking up valuable contributor time to respond to their endless AI responses which take a few seconds to generate. I have alerted them about ] and ], I would appreciate it if someone could enforce a restriction on this user from at minimum caste area. - ] (]) 13:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
== Community block for Supreme Cmdr ==


:Hello @Ratnahastin,
{{User|Supreme Cmdr}} has been blocked five times for revert-warring on ]. The last block was for ten days, ending 25 November; today Supreme Cmdr is revert-warring on ] again. In addition, he seems to be unable to remain civil and avoid personal attacks as any random sample of his contributions will prove. --] 20:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
:To start with I should admit that I am sorry for all the inconvenience that I may have caused as a result of my actions. It was never my intention to take people’s time or skew the conversation in a certain way. I appreciate the core idea to contribute the thoughts to the Wiki and share it borne in mind the overall rules and policies of this program.
:I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site. Even when I was using AI for the grammar check or, for instance, to elaborate on some point in the text, I saw to my mismanagement that over the process we probably confused the readers and repeated the same information and thoughts, which I would never wish to happen again. From now on I will ensure that in the future the input which I provide to wikipedia fits the Misplaced Pages standard and is more personal. I will also not write walls of text and will not make assertations that do not have substantiated evidence in sources.
:As for subjects that concern the Raj and the sources from this period and the discussions we have had it seems that I have gone too far in demanding clarification for the same thing. That being the case, with the understanding that the consensus will be acknowledged, I shall not be inclined to reopen this discussion unless new substantiated evidence is produced. I don’t want to prolong the conversation or bring any more stress.
:I will strive to learn from my experience to be more productive in my interactions going forward. If there are other limitations or additional rules to which I have to stick to, I will receive them with pleasure.
:In the same respect, let me specially apologize for the inconvenience and thank all of you for bearing with us. That was why I wanted to remind all of us that we can and should keep collectively improving Misplaced Pages as a resource. <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::This comment also has a typical LLM feel and contains meaningless statements such as "I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site" and differs substantially from , although GPTzero said this is human input. - ] (]) 13:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::It seems human in that it contains some composition and grammar errors that I don’t think an LLM would produce. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 13:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Thanks for the reply sir, I can't explain how frustrated I'm feeling from this morning which this user made me experience <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The time when I messaged Vikram banafar I was casual not formal and second of all your saying doesn't prove anything "and differs substantially from your usual (non-AI) writing style" that's a straight up false accusation and utter nonsensical point and 3rd point being that GPTzero stated that this is a human input then that's an human input end of the question. <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::No it's really not the end of the story if GPTZero says "likely human". In fact I'd actively discourage people depending on tools like GPTZero in favour of their human senses ] than yet another computer program. And, frankly, what you're hearing from people here is we'd rather your casual, human, flaws-and-all style of writing over ChatGPT output "formal" report templates. They are doing the opposite of what you're looking for and have become disruptive. ] (]) 14:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Man you still wanna do this? @] also says this doesn't seems AI generated to him and he used his actual "Human senses" to lean that way <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Admitting that you have used AI for writing your comments and then saying that you have not used AI is not going to help your case. - ] (]) 14:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::You know what I think this is getting to the ] point. Having to tell somebody to have the basic respect of other editors to not subject them to text-walls of chatGPT garbage over and over again is a disruptive distraction from what we should all be doing. ] (]) 14:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::This ain't getting anywhere <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I really don't understand the problem. Cuz I literally also said many where that yes I used AI but for expanding and grammar correction <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::If this combative approach is your "casual" style, perhaps your use of AI and its over the top politeness was an attempt to mask it. In any case, I think you are ] but for caste glorification given your obsession with a certain sub-caste. - ] (]) 14:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::im not obsessed with a certain subcaste but am sure is obsessed with British Raj sources. <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I don't think that's better. ] (]) 15:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::If we just temporarily put aside the AI-generated comments, can Nlkyair012 accept the view of experienced editors on Raj era sources and not push any viewpoint on a particulary caste? Because, to be honest, editors who have done this in the past usually end up indefinitely blocked. There is a low tolderance here for "caste warriors". <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


== Potential vandal trying to start edit war on the page for Frisch's. ==
It should be noted that Supreme Cmdr is Derek Smart's screenname/forum name, and that this is likely him (if the contributions are pro-derek). Derek smart is also well known, perhaps even notorious in the press, for his incivility and personal attacks against people on his forums; wikipedia shouldn't be a stretch. ] ] ] ] ] 21:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
{{atop|1=Page protected, and now this admin is flashing back to his youth going to Frisch's Big Boy in ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
This user keeps using IP addresses in order to revert creditable information about who makes their tartar sauce. Please look into this user. IP Addresses used were 67.80.16.30, 66.117.211.82, and 216.24.107.180. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


:Courtesy link ]. ] (]) 17:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:I must support a community block for him. I blocked him about a month back for similar behavior and it seems he has no intention of changing. <font color="DarkGreen">]</font><sup>]</sup> 21:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
:<del>This sounds a '''lot''' like the same edit warrer I dealt with on ], down to the false accusations of vandalism, removal of sourced information, and apparent use of proxies (all the IPs geolocate to different places). I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same person.</del> I've asked RFPP to intervene. ] &#124; ] 21:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::A thought, what about a month or longer ban from {{article|Derek Smart}} related articles? ''(]])'' 21:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
::NVM, checked MaxMind for geolocation and they all are in the same general area. ] &#124; ] 21:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Well, that seems to be the only page the user edits, so a community ban from only the page would have the same effect. <font color="DarkGreen">]</font><sup>]</sup> 21:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
{{abot}}
:::::If you were to do that, you'd have to ban him as well from articles about the games he created (Battlecruiser series, et al), because he'd likely take his aggression out there. That's assuming he even obeyed the ban: Smart isn't known for doing that. ] ] ] ] ] 21:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
:::A good idea. I support banning him from all Derek Smart related articles. --] 21:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
::::I think such a ban would be a good faith gesture rather than an outright Wiki wide ban. I suspect that such an article based banning may not matter in the long run though. ''(]])'' 22:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::I agree. ] ] ] ] ] 00:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:Little note, Derek Smart sues anyone and everyone who disagrees with him in any way. So if he gets blocked, and it really is him, he'll probably throw around some legal threats somewhere. ] (]) 13:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
::Well, there doesn't seem to be any objection to the article ban. Would anyone like to inform him? I'm already quite involved in the situation so it would be best if I didn't myself, of course. <font color="DarkGreen">]</font><sup>]</sup> 05:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Done. --] 05:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
:::: To be fair, you should list specifically the articles from which he's banned. By my accounting, that's ], ], ] as well as any redirects (e.g. ], ]). Also, whether it apply to the associated talk pages. This just to avoid the inevitable "Well, you weren't specific"... - (]) (]) (]) 22:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
:Let me see if I get this straight. I get banned based on a consensus by the very same people who got me banned those past times? Not to mention that this was done in a secretive manner and none of the prominent editors of the ] were even aware of it, let alone get a chance to offer their opinions? Yet another example of what is so very - very - wrong with Wiki. You folks on a power trip think that Wiki is where you can get to display your power over someone. And to those of you who stupidly keep saying that I'm Derek Smart, you should be so lucky to think that he even gives a damn about what a bunch of nobodys are writing on a Wiki. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 18:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::Well thats Wiki for you. Its the virtual version of a Kangaroo court where if enough dissenters get together and gang up on someone, they can inevitably reach a consensus. I for one do NOT support this ban as it is highly dubious and unwarranted. ] 22:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


== ] inaccurate edit summaries ==
I'd like to note that ] has just done a revert over on the ] article. ] 22:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


: You can do whatever you like, there is no consensus for the ban and I will simply not honor it. Here, let me quote from ] for those of you who think you can just get together and ban someone.


All but 2 of user's edit summaries are "Fixed Typo" when they are in fact partially updating statistical information on the page. Have left multiple messages/warnings on TP, with no response. ] (]) 16:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:'''Users are banned as an end result of the dispute resolution process, in response to serious cases of user misconduct.'''


== Lil Dicky Semi-Protection ==
:]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 23:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
{{atop|1=] is thataway →. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
] was semi-protected back in 2019. Now that five years have passed, could the semi-protection be lifted? ] (]) 16:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


:Ask at ] ] ] 16:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::The choice was either a site-wide block or an article ban. The article ban was chosen as the less-restrictive of the two. If you reject it, your forcing the choice or option A.
{{abot}}
::This is actually how it's done. ANI is hardly a secret board, it's the usual place for reporting disruptive editors. ---] <sup>(]/])</sup> 00:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


== Request for Review of Neutrality and Repeated Actions ==
:::Supreme Cmdr has been blocked for another 2 weeks for blatantly violating this article ban. I'm beginning to lose my patience with him, as it is clear he will not acknowledge that he is not to edit the articles relating to Derek Smart any further. Perhaps an indefinite block should be considered once more? <font color="DarkGreen">]</font><sup>]</sup> 02:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
{{Atop|This complaint has no merit and does not require administrative intervention.--] (]) 18:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}


Dear admin,
::::I respectively note, this 'consensus' was not established by a Request for Comment and in fact is very different from the legitimate consensus established by his last ]. ] 11:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to express my concern regarding Psycholoppos, who has repeatedly applied the neutrality dispute tag to content related to Randa Kassis. Despite previous clarifications, these actions suggest a potential bias, which could undermine the objectivity and integrity of the platform.


I kindly request that you review this matter and take appropriate steps to ensure that all users adhere to neutrality standards. If possible, I would also appreciate guidance on how to address such situations constructively in the future.
:::::True, perhaps more time should be spent on this discussion, but I think it's clear there is already enough evidence that Supreme Cmdr won't stop this year-long edit warring, so even an indefinite block would be appropriate at this time. More people are welcome to comment, but so far the only exception to those agreeing is a user who is currently being looked at for being a potential ] of Supreme Cmdr. <font color="DarkGreen">]</font><sup>]</sup> 19:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


Thank you for your attention to this issue. Please feel free to reach out if further clarification is needed.
Hazar ] (]) 17:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:@], whether the NPOV tag is needed or not should first be discussed on the article's talk page. Also, see the large notice at the top of this page: you are required to notify the editor you are reporting. ]&nbsp;] 17:53, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::The editor is also called Psychloppos, not Psycholoppos. I have notified them for the OP. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 17:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:I wouldn't give a chatbot-written thread the time of day. HS, ]. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 18:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{Abot}}


== Disruptive behavior from IP ==
This behavior fits 100% with the well documented behavior of Derek Smart on his own forums, and on the newsgroups. Do a google search for Derek Smart Flame War, it's all over. ] ] ] ] ] 00:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
For the past month, {{ip|24.206.65.142}} has been attempting to add misleading information to ], specifically trying to use the unofficial "777-200LRF" designation beyond first mention in the relevant section and passing it off as official (, , , , , , , , , , ). Their behavior died down for a few weeks, but restarted several days ago (, ), including that {{u|Fnlayson}} is "okay with it". They have been asked numerous times on ] to either stop or provide evidence of official use of the designation, but they have failed to do so and have continued their disruption. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 19:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


I forgot to mention that this user has used at least two other IPs; {{ip|24.206.75.140}} and {{ip|24.206.65.150}}. 24.206.65.142 is the most recent to cause disruption. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 20:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Furthermore, it's a little fishy how at the same time, user WarHawkSP pops up, with edits only to Derek Smart, the user page acknowledges it's a sockpuppet, and it takes the side of Supreme_Cmdr.....] ] ] ] ] 00:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:Speaking from a third party view, If he is the creator of said media, why block him? Couldn't he provide you with the most accurate information seeing as he's the one who made it and all?] 15:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::He could, but he would also have to provide sources as we need ] information. Either way, his editing habits are unproductive and disruptive. <font color="DarkGreen">]</font><sup>]</sup> 23:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


:"777-200LRF" is not misleading, some cargo airlines do use that designation. Today I reverted to a previous version that ] was okay with . I feel that ] is going overboard with charges of misinformation and disruptive editing. ] (]) 19:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
=== {{user|WarHawkSP}} ===
::It is misleading to remove any mentions of it being unofficial. Boeing has never made a "777-200LRF", no aftermarket conversion has ever been offered under that name, nor has the FAA or any other regulatory agency ever certified such an aircraft. To pass such a designation off as official is by definition misleading and misinformation. Likewise, to continuously do so after you have been told to stop by multiple people and falsely claiming that others support your arguments is by definition disruptive. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 20:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

::Of note is the fact that this is not the first time the IP has claimed to have Fnlayson's support. ] not to assume support without a specific statement, yet it seems they've also ignored that. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 20:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
I add this subsection now because {{user|WarHawkSP}} is exhibiting the same behavior as SupremeCmdr, however checkuser shows no link between the two users. Per the previous ArbCom ruling at ]''For the purpose of dispute resolution when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sockpuppets or several users with similar editing habits they may be treated as one user with sockpuppets.'' I would like third parties to examine the behavior of WarHawkSP, as in my opinion his behavior is exactly the same that got SupremeCmdr blocked. Note his block log is shorter as he lost his previous account, , who was already blocked for being a suspected sockpuppet. So, I'd like to hear what other people think about the possibility of an article ban on User:WarHawkSP as they appear to be a single purpose account whose edits only pertain to ]. <font color="DarkGreen">]</font><sup>]</sup> 23:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Its not misinformation as here are the sources which use "777-200LRF", including GE Capital Aviation (the engine supplier for most Boeing 777) and Leeham News (to avoid confusion with the upcoming 777-8F). ] (]) 21:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

::::I have asked you for sources from either Boeing or the FAA, yet you still either refuse to do so or (more likely) cannot because they don't exist. Only Boeing and the FAA can designate factory-built Boeing aircraft. Airlines and misinformed news websites have no authority to do so, and any alternative names they use are purely unofficial and should not have anything more than a single brief mention in the appropriate article section. Your ] to get that after numerous people have told you is disruptive. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 22:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
==Personal attacks, harassment, baiting and pestering by user:Oden==
:Relevant range is {{rangevandal|24.206.64.0/20}}, in case somebody needs it. ] &#124; ] 21:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
User {{User|Oden}} has been recently involved exclusive in a controversial activity of challenging selected by him users attacking their images. I put aside for now the issue of the interpretation of the ] policy as good people obviously disagree in good faith on the policy interpretation as well as the policy itself. However, even if one chooses to take upon himself such a sensitive task as implementing a policy for the good of Misplaced Pages, such task can only be taken with utmost sensitivity to other editors. With a couple of other editors joining what many perceived as a disruptive crusade in whose process the worst attitudes were displayed, several editors opened a ] against one of such crusaders. Notably, the RfC is not about the policy or implementing an unpopular policy but about the unacceptable attitude and abusive ].
*Semiprotected ] for two days. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Shortly after, ] posted to the RfC ] disgusting attack directed at all the involved editors bringing all sorts of unrelated issues that had no relation to what the RfC was about thus substituting tackling the issue with attacking the opponents. And hour or so ago Admin:{{Admin|Khoikhoi}} who was not involved in the dispute in any way gave Oden a (rather soft IMO) reminding of WP:NPA and ] policies. Reaction of ] was barrage of irregular stuff.

When I on his response as being lacking the substance, Oden responded by a series of entries where he baits Khoikhoi and brings up another barrage of irrelevant stuff (see also ]).

Third party input is requested. --] 07:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

:'''Comment:'''
:In a RfC the topic of discussion is the editor who is subject to the RfC, but it is also relevant and sometimes even necessary to discuss the past contributions of the other editors contributing to the RfC.

:*] states: "''Remarks describing an editor's actions and made without involving their personal character should not be construed as personal attacks.''"

:*] states: "''This does not include'' ''reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason.''"

:*Finally, ] states: "''An RfC may bring close scrutiny on all involved editors''".

:However, I do agree that outside of a RfC such comments would be considered inappropriate, since talk pages in Misplaced Pages are provided in order to discuss improvements in an article (which might be why ] reacted so strongly as to actually issue a warning).

:Final note: ]'s comment on my talk page (at ) came after I left my first response and second response on ]'s talk page ( and ). I must be very talented indeed to be able to see into the future!

:] has as of yet not responded. I will leave a message on his talk page urging him to comment here. --] 10:37, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

:::This "response" illustrates the user well on top of the original diffs above. Please check his "]" at the RfC linked above and match them with his response (along with this protracted baiting of Khoikhoi who rightfully warned the user). It is easy to tell between trolling and proper discussions. --] 10:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

::::] (who is an admin/sysop) has as of yet not responded. From my first response at 4:29 UTC until now he has made almost 40 edits, so apparently he's online. I have stated on his talk page that his failure to respond stands in sharp contrast to the serious tone in his warning where he threatened me with "''blocks with the length being increased each time''" (). His first signal was that he was to busy to respond (), his second that he was too lazy (). --] 13:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
] has asked me to provide a comment here. When I saw Oden mention my name in his list of I was quite insulted. I agree with ] and ] that ]'s comments were highly inappropiate. ] 18:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I really can't see that Odin has done anything out of line here. He mentioned that we'd all been blocked before, and that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Not a particularly helpful comment, but not a "disgusting attack" either. Note that I was one of the editors mentioned by Odin in his so-called "disgusting attack", and I just can't find any way to be offended. This is really a tempest in a teacup. I guess Odin should doublecheck his comments in such a delicate situation to make sure he won't offend the thin-skinned. But really, Irpen's comments above seem at least as provocative as Odin's. I think all involved should take a deep breath, assume good faith, and get over it. &ndash; ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 18:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't asked to comment, but I shall. Oden has been contributing to the RfC noted above by Irpen, however his contributions haven't been especially helpful. While most editors involved in the discussion have been obviously frustrated with each other and the debate has been quite heated at times, Oden's comments haven't really been about the RfC at hand so much as about policy. For example, he posted a lengthy screed on the RfC talk page about how the RfC has turned into a policy debate, however pretty much the only comments he's made that aren't an attempt to "call out" Irpen have been repeated posts about policy. I don't know if it's intentional or not but he isn't really doing much except to stoke the flames. ] 03:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I find his comments on RfC to be offensive and incivil, bordering on trolling (comparing block logs, yeah that gives a true measure... <_<). It violated quite a few basic policies and should imho be dealt with accordingly. -- ] <sup>]</sup> 00:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

:Response to ]'s comment:

:*] (policy) states: "''Remarks describing an <u>editor's actions</u> and made <u>without involving their personal character</u> should not be construed as personal attacks.''"

:*] (guideline) states: "''This does not include'' ''reading a user's contribution log; <u>those logs are public for good reason</u>.''"

:*Finally, ] states: "''An RfC may bring <u>close scrutiny on all involved editors</u>''".

: --] 07:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::Apparently there seems to be some misconception (], ] and ]) that an RfC can only bring scrutiny on the editor subject to the RfC. However, I do agree that outside of a RfC such comments would be considered inappropriate, since talk pages in Misplaced Pages are provided in order to discuss improvements the articles.

::On a more general note: the entire process of a Request for Comment regarding a user could be regarded as a violation of ], ], and also quite provocative. The fact that all editors can be subject to scrutiny only serves to ensure fairness in the process.

::--] 07:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

This so called "response" in which Oden merely pastes verbatim his earlier post is a perfect example of this user's trollish behavior, noted in the initial observation. Sadly, the user attitudes that prompted this complaint does not change. --] 05:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:I don't understand why Oden thinks this is acceptable. Misplaced Pages policy or not, it's painfully clear that some of his comments are down right rude and unnecessary. Nitpicking at the wording of guidelines and policy doesn't change that. -- ] 05:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The bottom line: all editors participating in a RfC are subject to the same level of scrutiny (c.f. ]). --] 15:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Diffs illustrate that Oden is unable to concentrate on content and constantly comes up with unnecessary, inflammatory ad hominems, which may be classified as harrassment of his opponents. This is no good. If his behavioural problems are well entrenched, they should be dicussed not here, but on ]. --<font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 09:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:The content of a RfC is all of the editors involved. If I interpret ] correctly it is OK to bring into question the contributions of a editor subject to a RfC, but not to discuss the other editors who are participating? --] 11:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::I suppose you've got it right. --<font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 14:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Update. Within two hours after I posted the above comment, Oden started mechanically tagging all the fairuse images uploaded by me within last two years with ]. I regard this as harrassing by way of revenge for my comment above. I see that he specifically targets those images that were uploaded by his opponents. While we should continue to eliminate unfree images, the selective and ad hominem approach practiced by Oden is totally unacceptable. --<font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 14:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:Note:
:* I also tagged one image which was licensed as PD, but which apparently was a copyrighted image, and which ] amended ( ).
:* I also removed a fair use image from ]'s user namespace (). Criterion 9 of the ] states that "''Fair use images may be used only in the article namespace. Used outside article space, they are not covered under the fair use doctrine.''" --] 15:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Oden, I endorse these edits. Please don't make it personal, though. --<font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 15:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Since ] is aware of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines regarding the use of images, I will leave it up to the user to review his upload log. Note: another editor (]) has also tagged several images with {{tl|rfu}}. This editors actions are outside of the scope of this discussion. --] 16:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

==Non-consensus page moves==
Administrator intervention is requested to stop a few users who are engaging in non-consensus page moves of hundreds (perhaps thousands) of television episode articles. There has been a dispute at ] for a few weeks now. The page is marked as disputed, attempts at discussion have been ongoing , and the issue is now moving on to ]. However, a few users, evidently frustrated with the slowness of the process, are declaring premature "consensus" and engaging in large quantities of page moves
. I understand that anything that is moved can eventually be moved back, but we're talking a couple thousand pages here, plus redirects, plus many of these pages are at names which have already been the result of elaborate consensus-building discussions by various WikiProjects, so I think it would be better if we had a complete freeze on these kinds of naming changes for now. The situation has been exacerbated by extreme uncivility and uncooperative behavior: "respond to this crap" , "bad faith delay tactics" "proposing a poll is uncivil and disruptive" . Can I please get a neutral admin to pop in to ] and ] and simply say, "Stop with the moves, take it to ], don't move anything else until it's been worked out"? --] 07:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

:Several admins have commented on the situation, but each time Elonka has deemed them "non neutral" because they disagreed with her. -- ] 09:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
::Even if the poll were re-run and found in Elonka's favor, it would still require exceptions to be established at various places - either a Wikiproject or at an individual page. In fact, it would just require ] to be run for pages which don't meet the current guideline - which is already advisable. The page moves would '''still''' be appropriate for ones that have not established exceptions - which is most all of them. —] (]) 13:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

::: As a note, both Ned Scott and Wknight94 are active parties in this dispute, so don't really count as neutral opinions.

::: For a recent example of how this group of editors is steamrollering through various sections of Misplaced Pages, I point to ], where an earlier naming convention has been attacked, with multiple controversial page moves being pushed through without discussion. The "normal" TMNT editors had earlier this year already gone through several iterations of article naming, finally deciding on a consistent system in February 2006. Then, a couple days ago, as overflow from the dispute at ], an editor from the dispute, in a violation of ], jumped in to the TMNT category and started moving articles around, giving only about 24 hours notice that they were going to start , and then when no objections immediately surfaced, they proceeded. When the situation was noticed and objections ''were'' raised, the talk page has turned into a battleground, as other editors from the NC discussion have poured in. And the pages can't be moved back, because they're editing the redirects to "lock" them. Please, this group of editors is working its way through multiple sections of Misplaced Pages, making a ] consensus, and moving many hundreds of articles. We need for these moves to stop, so that normal ] procedures can be followed. --] 00:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

::::And again we have all tried to explain to Elonka that there is no problem. There was no previous consensus, just some guy went and named a bunch of articles that were a little out of line with ]. No big deal. We moved them, there are redirects all in place, no double redirects, and no rational reason whatsoever to use an article titling method that doesn't fit with ] and ]. In all honestly, the only issue here is the users who are making it an issue. -- ] 02:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Elonka's sentence, ''The "normal" TMNT editors had earlier this year already gone through several iterations of article naming, finally deciding on a consistent system in February 2006'' boils down to one editor who misplaced one note stating his sole preference. No evidence of either "TMNT editor'''s'''" or "several iterations" has been given by Elonka. Just one guy with one iteration all by himself 9 months ago. This is the type of misrepresentation we've been dealing with for a month at ]. —] (]) 11:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::Actually, us normal TMNT editors did agree upon a naming convention that would dilineate the different series so that you could tell which series you were dealing with immediately. I for one agree with Elonka and I do not like the change to the TMNT pages, especially since we went through a process to get where we were until recently.

::::::] 03:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Elonka is asking for someone to say "take it to ]" — however, dispute resolution is underway. An ] has been filed, but is currently stalled after the RfM page itself was locked because of an edit war largely perpetrated by Elonka. (Incidentally, I believe that the RfM dispute is settled, and if a neutral party would like to unprotect the RfM page it would be greatly appreciated — the admins hoping to participate in the mediation have been asked not to unlock the page ourselves.)

What Elonka calls a "kangaroo court consensus" is the result of extensive discussion at ]. Elonka feels that due to some irregularities in an earlier straw poll, no consensus has been reached on the guideline; she is calling for a second poll. However, subsequent to that poll a supermajority of participating editors expressed support for the existing guideline, and the ''discussion'' following the poll showed a strong supermajority supporting the principle "disambiguate only when necessary". Most editors on the page consider this a consensus, but Elonka vocally disputes this.

Incidentally, at least five admins have examined and/or participated in the discussion at ], and all five have agreed that a consensus exists for the current guideline. For the record these five admins are myself, Chuq, Steve Block, Radiant! and wknight94<small>(along with many other comments on the subject)</small>. Any other participation in the discussion is, of course, welcome. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 08:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:The problem here is all users need to calm down, take two steps back and take a deep breath, all this moving helps nothing; Especially if mediation is to be successful, I advise that it stops until consensus can be achieved. <small><font face="Tahoma">'''thanks'''/] ] ]</font></small> 20:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::Actually "all this moving" is just the result of following a policy, making the naming of wikipedia pages more consistent and in line with ], ] and ]. On the other hand, I don't know what insisting that consensus doesn't exist when it clearly does, insisting that an active guideline should not be followed, and trying to change a guideline without consensus via revert warring helps. It's just disruptive. And it should be noted, the guideline is no longer marked as "disputed" (it never should have been in the first place as there wasn't consensus for that addition) and it looks like this issue is not going to mediation. --] 16:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

This thread is now being continued in the below section , where I would point out that {{user|^demon}} has posted for ], confirming that these moves do not have consensus, and that engaging in further moves is endangering a mediation. --] 20:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:I think Elonka have finally found something we can agree on. I also think that both the current RM's should be speedily closed...and all pages moved per the clear consensus on each. As WP:RM says, "Page moves usually take place after five days, or earlier at the discretion of an administrator. The time for discussion may be extended if a consensus has not emerged. Generally speaking, page move requests which have already reached consensus are processed quicker than those which have not." --] 15:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I am the editor who did the initial page moves at TMNT 1987, which seems to have set off this thread. I went on an unplanned wikibreak after those moves and have just returned to find all this; I apologize for the delay in response.

I made the moves at TMNT 1987 in the following context:
*The use of unnecessary disambiguation was pointed out by tiZom three months previously, and he made a suggestion at that point that they be moved;
*No one voiced any opinions in those three months, indicating to me that there were no strong feelings one way or the other;
*A study of the talk page history revealed no reasons had been stated for the pages to be named using a non-standard naming convention;
*A further study of the issue revealed no apparent consensus either for or against using a non-standard naming convention for this series; indeed, no consensus-building discussion had ever been started on the issue, let alone completed.

Taking all this into consideration, and feeling like much of my wikienergy lately had been devoted only to talk pages, I took the opportunity to be bold and help improve Misplaced Pages in this small way.

I was not acting as a "representative from TV:NC," but as a Misplaced Pages editor. Had another editor, perhaps tiZom, made those page moves, would the present escalation have occurred? If my participation in the discussions at TV:NC precludes me from freely editing and attempting to improve Misplaced Pages, then how may I officially remove myself from that discussion?

I would like to point out that if any editors feel that the TMNT 1987 episodes should have their own specialized naming convention, why not present the argument at the TMNT 1987 page? If a consensus-building discussion resolves that a non-standard naming convention should be followed, I will be more than happy to go through and replace the suffixes myself. --] &#8249;&#8201;<big>]|]</big>&#8201;&#8250; 18:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] ==

Can anyone review the conduct there? I think {{User|ILike2BeAnonymous}} in paricular deserves a blocks, since s/he's the one repeatedly upsetting the status quo. Thank you. - <b>]</b><small> ]</small> 13:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
:I would add that he has been reverting 5 separate editors on this article since June 2, 2006, rejecting an earlier consensus, but has yet to make even ''one'' comment on the article Talk: page. The account itself edits fairly intermittently, and seems to be editing this month mostly for the purpose of reverting that article. I'd support a block of anywhere between 1 week and 1 month, but I leave the exact length up to you. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 16:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

::As the editor being discussed here, I'd just like to say that I represent that remark that "the account ... seems to be editing this month mostly for the purpose of reverting that article". I direct your attention to my list of edits in November, the last full month; you can decide for yourself whether I devoted most of my attention to reverting Pisgat Ze'ev or not. +] 20:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

OK. Consistently with my ], I am imposing a five day block on {{User|ILike2BeAnonymous}} for s/his conduct on ]. Please direct further communication to my talk page. - <b>]</b><small> ]</small> 23:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

:From an admittedly brief look over this, it does look like a block could be justified. Am I the only one thinking five days might be a bit strong? If a shorter block is enough to "get the message across" and change their behavior, leading to ] and more reasonable behavior, good; if not, it would seem easy enough to re-block. Any takers? ] 03:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

::I was thinking 72 hours... '''] <sup>]&nbsp;·&nbsp;]&nbsp;]</sup>''' 03:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I think 5 days is fine. Jayjg suggested up to a month. Feel free to shorten it w/o discussion if you feel it's warranted. - <b>]</b><small> ]</small> 03:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::::I agree 5 days is entirely appropriate. If anything its lenient. This user has been edit warring over months, repeatedly reverting back to his same ] edit without any attempt to reach a ] on the talk page. If this had happened on a couple of occasions, then a 5 day block would be too much, but a sustained, long-term edit war is a serious matter and we need to send a strong message. This is unacceptable behavior that seriously damages the fundamental processes of Misplaced Pages. I have already declined the user's unblock request. ] 03:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Fair enough. I'll let this one sit, unless fresh opinions or evidence come up to the contrary. ] 04:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:There was no earlier consensus on this page. I strongly object to the block for reasons I have now set out on the talk page. Either both sides in this edit war should be blocked or neither. ] | ] 22:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::Further note: pursuant to my raising the question on his talk page, Crzrussian told me that "I blocked the one who was stirring trouble, the one who was reverted by multiple editors." Since the current spate of edit warring started the user who has been blocked has made 15 reverts and been reverted by two other users (one of them Amoruso). ] has made 13 reverts and has also been reverted by two other users (one, obviously, being the blocked user). Clearly Amoruso deserves a block too, though arguably only thirteen fifteenths as long as ILike2BeAnonymous's. Or of course, neither could be blocked. But sauce for the goose = sauce for the gander. ] | ] 23:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:::ILike2BeAnonymous has been edit warring on this for 6 months, has been reverted by 5 different editors, and has yet to make a Talk: page comment. Amoruso's involvement is considerably shorter, been reverted by fewer editors, and at least Amoruso has participated in the Talk: page discussion. There's a significant difference between the two. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 23:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

== Vandalism by classmates with my first and last name ==

Just about every day, I revert vandalism on Misplaced Pages in my school library. Now, unfortunately, two of my classmates have seen me doing it, and have started vandalizing Misplaced Pages.

The problem is, they keep putting my first and last name in articles (see for ones I definitely know about).

What I know is that they create accounts through the IP ] and then vandalize Misplaced Pages with them, sometimes putting my name in articles.

I dont want to violate ] here (just trying to keep myself from getting banned), but could someone please delete those revisions and possibly block the IP for one month with account creation disabled to get them bored with vandalism?

I appreciate any help here. Thanks! ]<small> (]) (]) (])</small> 03:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

:If you go to ], you can request an ] to permanently remove the edits. As for the user being dealt with, I (not an admin) don't know how Misplaced Pages would deal with a ''school IP'' inserting personal information. // ] <sup>(<i><span style='color:grey'>]</span>)</i></sup> 03:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::Technically, its not the school IP, its accounts made by the IP. ]<small> (]) (]) (])</small> 03:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:::You really ought to be taking this to your school authorities too. ] 03:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::::If I do so, they'll block the site, perhaps permanently. I dont want that to happen! ]<small> (]) (]) (])</small> 14:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

:I have prevented account creation for your school's IP address and extended the block (which was going to expire on December 9) until December 23. -- ''']''' 04:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::OK, its started up again through ] and ]. ]<small> (]) (]) (])</small> 13:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::HELP! My talk page is being vandalized by them. I've requested semi-protection, but HELP NEEDED NOW!!!! ]<small> (]) (]) (])</small> 13:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Done. ] ] 14:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Thanks. Also, ] (and possibly ] could be used) are also being used to create those accounts. Theres a current block on there that expires on December 13th, but account creation wasn't disabled. ]<small> (]) (]) (])</small> 14:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::Not to be pushy, but is anything going to happen to ]? If its blocked, I'm betting all my troubles with the vandals will end. Originally posted by ] 02:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC), who was ]<small> (]) (]) (])</small> 02:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC) logged out.
::::::Both the school IPs are blocked, and I thank whoever blocked them. However, the two vandals continue to overload my userpages with hundreds of barnstars, and are creating accounts outside of school now. All I can think of is doing total protection of my userpages until they get bored with this (which I want to save as a last resort). I'd like peoples opinions on what they think I should do. I dont want to report this to the school authorities, because it may get Misplaced Pages blocked at my school. ]<small> (]) (]) (])</small> 02:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::I don't see the (recent) vandalism to your user pages of which you speak. -- ''']''' 02:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::::See , , , and for examples. Note that this will slow your computer down, as the vandals loaded at least 100 barnstars on those revisions. One of those is from just yesterday (I believe the first one), and the rest are older than that. ]<small> (]) (]) (])</small> 14:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Ban evasion and vandalism by Eowbotm ==

''Note: This incident was automatically archived without resolution. I am reposting exactly as it appears in the archives. It's a pretty straightforward case and I would appreciate any feedback/remedies you guys can offer.''

I thought about taking this to ], but decided to try posting here first. Blocked user {{user|Eowbotm}} appears to be evading his block with the use of accounts {{user|Eowbotm1}}, {{user|Eowbotm2}}, {{user|Eowbotm3}}, and {{user|Eowbotm4}}. All of these accounts have committed vandalism:

'''Vandalism, POV, and other reverted shenanigans (a lot of which is very subtle)'''
*Eowbotm1
*Eowbotm2
*Eowbotm3
*Eowbotm4 <small>(I just now re-added this, is properly cited and should not have been removed)</small>

'''Evidence incidcating that they're the same accounts (besides the names)'''
*And an edit indicating that Eowbotm3 is Eowbotm2.
*And edits by Eowbotm3 and Eowbotm1 to Eowbotm, suggesting a link.
*An edit by Eowbotm1 to Eowbotm4, in case more evidence is needed.

I've also found that this user cleared vandalism warnings off his talk pages for and . And just did so again with Eowbotm1 (a day later).

Can we get these sockpuppets of a who has consistently vandalized on his socks blocked as well? And perhaps an IP ban or something to keep him from doing this again? Thanks in advance. —] <sup><small>( ] | ])</small></sup> 18:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
:Seconded by me, as one of his victims ] 19:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
::Try ]? -] <small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small> 03:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Can't socks of indefinitely banned users just be banned by an admin though? WP:SSP takes 10 days. =/ —] <sup><small>( ] | ])</small></sup> 03:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Well, I can at least say that WP:SSP isn't necessary for vandalism-only accounts, and if those aren't sockpuppets, they're impersonators, which also violates Misplaced Pages policy(not sure which, however).--] 04:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
* Blocked all. People may want to review <span class="plainlinks">] (] • ] • <font color="002bb8"></font> • ] • <font color="002bb8"></font>)</span>, the other three are unequivocal vandalism-only socks. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 13:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
*:Thank you very much JzG. —] <sup><small>( ] | ])</small></sup> 15:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

=== Post-Block Socks ===
::You've won the battle, but you havent won the war...get down on your knees and take what's coming to you...] 14:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:::And another sock of Eowbotm's gets banned. ^^ —] <sup><small>( ] | ])</small></sup> 22:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
{{IPvandal|58.170.255.90}} is highly likely to be {{user|Eowbotm}}. Edits to the ] article are consistent with Eowbotm's editing style ("get back in the kitchen" comments). Compare an edit made by his blocked sock {{user|Fortunefaded}} with the IP 8.170.255.90 . Would it be possible to get this IP blocked for a more lengthy period of time? —] <sup><small>( ] | ])</small></sup> 21:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

<s>Actually, Lantoka, that ip is more likely to be just another vandal than eowbotm. You can read the main commment on the page for the ip.] 23:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)</s>
:The above IP was blocked by {{admin|Malo}} because it was used to edit on {{user|Notapuppetofeowbotm21}}, a sock of Eowbotm. —] <sup><small>( ] | ])</small></sup> 01:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Man, this guy looks intense...I just tagged maybe 7 more obvious sock puppets(], i.e.) What can we do about it?<font color="blue">]</font><font color="grey">]</font><font color="red">]</font> 03:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

See for a complete list. —] <sup><small>( ] | ])</small></sup> 01:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== User:Light current ==

<span class="plainlinks">] (] • ] • <font color="002bb8"></font> • ] • <font color="002bb8"></font>)</span> :There's been some disagreement over at the reference desk- see ]. My personal opinion here is that Light current is either completely clueless or is intentionally trolling, and I've given him a stern . However, my supply of AGF is probably running out with this guy so I wonder if anyone else has opinions. ] ] 03:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:There was a situation before at one of the content policies that appeared to involve trolling from Light current. The warning was a good idea. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 04:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:Hmm. Good luck. See his block log. A warning was proper though. Considering the numerous ones he's had in the past, I wouldn't mess about if he continues however. ] | ] 04:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::Light current doesn't really strike me as bad, but he sometimes acts in a juvenile manner. ] 04:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I concur. He either does not have, or does not use, good judgement about what to say. At a certain point, however, even if we assume the best of intentions, something has to be done. -- ] 04:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::::As far as I know I have responded to all current criticisms and taken corrective action (including deletions). If there are any other outstanding issues, please let me know. 8-)--] 05:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::::: Light current, be aware that it is common for people to be banned from places they disrupt. I hope you have decided to stop the nonsense. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 09:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I have responded to all the issues raised. If you raise a specific issue that has not already been dealt with I will respond.--] 14:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:], you asked for opinions, so here is mine. I don't see how ] is being disruptive. You unilaterally deleted a non-offensive question about HRT from the Science RD; ] re-instated the question; and then ] and ] discussed the issue with you on StuRat's talk page. For you to say that ] is "completely clueless or is intentionally trolling" is unjustified, and very close to a personal attack. ] 17:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I agree. ] is biased in this matter, and should recuse himself from any actions, as he indicated he would do: ''"But, I'll admit I'm personally irritated at him too, so if action needs to be taken I'd prefer someone else do it"'' . That was a good idea, it's too bad he didn't do as he said, and leave this matter to other, calmer heads. ] 02:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::Did you check his contributions? Particular gems include making a masturbation joke in response to a RD question. He's been quite unresponsive to complaints on his talk page. Well, unresponsive is not the right word- he responds, as a chattering child might respond. But thus far he's failed to modify his behavior. ] ] 17:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Yes, I am familiar with Light current's contributions. Do you have a link for the masturbation joke ? If you are thinking of the "popping your collar" remark, I found that quite funny in context, but I don't believe it was one of Light current's answers. ] 17:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_sig.png

:::How do you know it was related to masturbation? THat interpretation is purely in your mind!--] 23:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Not off the top of my head. Here's another recent off-topic sexual remark that someone complained about . See also the numerous complaints on his talk page about his RD activities. He seems to honestly believe in his right to use the RD as a chat board. I'm not opposed to a certain amount of that, but here's a user who's been getting and ignoring complaints for some time. He's exhausted my patience, but I don't know if he's exhausted the entire community's patience yet. Note that mostly his remarks aren't that bad in isolation- you have to look at the overall pattern of disruptive behavior to see the problem here. He seems to enjoy being a pest- if there are little or no useful contributions to offset this, the answer looks obvious to me. But, I'll admit I'm personally irritated at him too, so if action needs to be taken I'd prefer someone else do it. ] ] 17:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::He has not been "ignoring complaints", he has discused them, and, where appropriate (and given the opportunity to do so), he has reverted his edits. ] 03:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::So you can't remember what you meant by the "masturbation joke". Is it possible you are conflating the activities of several RD users, and attributing them all to Light current ? As for the "photography" example, Light current's remark was challenged on the RD talk page, and Light current says he would have amended it, but we will never know if he would have, because you didn't give him a chance - you deleted his response ''7 minutes'' after it was raised on the talk page. That does begin to look like stalking behaviour to me. You say that Light current irritates you - my opinion is that this irritation has led to you no longer being objective about his behaviour. ] 19:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I remember it fine, and the diff is . Why are you objecting to me ''quickly'' deleting irrelevant (and possibly, slightly offensive) content? Doing it slower doesn't mean it gets done better. Yes, I've been reviewing his contributions- so have others. This is so we can remove the more juvenile and off-topic remarks he makes, since he's demonstrated no judgment of his own. I guess one man's "stalking" is another's "damage control". However I intent to continue to remove rude, irrelevant, and/or unhelpful comments from pages as I see fit. This is neither a playground, a chat board, nor a forum for free speech. ] ] 20:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I have posted to Light current's talk page before, mostly over the same sort of problems. See archived threads ] and ] for examples. One comment in particular was very illuminating: ''"When you have as many edits as I have, esp on Rd, then you can tell me what to do. Until then, I advise you to keep your counsel. 8-)"'' (28 October 2006) - despite the smiley, this either displays the wrong attitude, or a worrying lack of judgement over the right time and place to make jokes. This lack of judgment is evident at the Reference Desk as well. There also seems to be a pattern of behaviour along the lines of pushing the boundaries and defying authority up to a certain point, and then claiming innocence, and saying that he has "responded to all queries". Overall, the attitude and behaviour is often (but not always) juvenile and immature. Ultimately, I would say stern warnings (when needed) from ''uninvolved'' parties may be the only way to get the message through, along with some mentoring. Of course, the behaviour may improve over time as the user gains experience in life and Misplaced Pages. And it would be unfair to single out Light current. There are others that exhibit the same sort of behaviour. Possibly showing these sort of users ''other'' areas of Misplaced Pages they could contribute to would work well, as then they really ''will'' encounter people who will tell them exactly what they think of silly behaviour. ] 17:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:Agree that there are other problem editors with the same sort of behavior. LC seems to be buddies with some of them. But, we have to start somewhere. Agree that warnings are reasonable but they have thus far been ineffective. Whether the "innocent child" routine is genuine or not I don't particularly care- the disruption is the same either way. He also made some reference to his edit count to me, as though he believes this justifies his behavior. Anyway, he's characterized my telling him his behavior needs to change as "stalking", which I guess translates into "leave me alone and let me do what I want." A block might help him understand that his behavior really is a problem, but it's hard to point to a single edit that clearly warrants such action. ] ] 18:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::What about an ] for user conduct? If enough people agree with what they think the problem is, the message might get through. ] 18:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:::For what it's worth: ]. He says he understands that many people think his editing is frequently inappropriate. Time will tell I suppose. ] ] 21:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I tried to reason with him about a month ago (archived at ] with a related thread starting at ] with no apparent improvement on his part. This is where the "When you have as many edits as I have, esp on Rd, then you can tell me what to do. Until then, I advise you to keep your counsel." quote came from. When it became clear to him that I'm an admin he backed off (somewhat), but has been pushing the edge ever since. I fear RFC may be the only recourse. -- ] <small>(])</small> 03:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked this editor for 1 week. See my explanation at ]. As always, I invite others to review and adjust as they see fit. ] ] 23:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:Good decision. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 00:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:It appears harsh at first glance, but I understand the logic. When a user clearly alludes to masturbation and then tries to convince people that it's all in their own heads, that's trolling. LC often seems bent on arguing that nobody can ''prove'' what he's talking about, and that the judgement and common sense of others may be faulty, so there's nothing anybody can do; I've talked to him before about the fallacies of this approach, but I guess the lesson didn't sink in. Unfortunately, I'm not sure a long block will make him behave better&mdash;but I also have no idea what else to do. -- ] 02:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::Not convinced it will help either, but it will make the trolling go away temporarily. Or, at any rate it'll confine it to his own page where he can talk to himself all day long as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for the feedback, glad I wasn't completely unreasonable here. ] ] 02:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I'm not an admin, but a week seems a little harsh to me. Light current has shown that he can talk the talk (ie. he says he understands what is wrong and will try better in the future), but I would say judge his actions during a probationary period. Unblock or reduce the block length, and make clear that disruptive behaviour during the probationary period of a week will result in the block being reimposed. ie. Make clearer to him what sort of behaviour he needs to avoid, and then watch for a week to see that he does avoid that sort of behaviour. Again, mentoring is really what is needed ere, with someone to politely tap the shoulder and say "ahem, do you ''really'' think that is suitable?" ] 03:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, both nonsexual jokes and the serious discussion of sexual topics, such as masturbation, are allowed on the Ref Desk, but there do appear to be significant objections to sexual jokes. That's fine, but the editor should then be asked to remove the post and given a reasonable opportunity to do so. Instead, ] removed it himself, depriving ] of the opportunity to do so, then used this post later as a justification for blocking this editor for a week. Note that ] did not restore the comment, and shows every sign of being reasonable in this matter. Furthermore, ]'s actions regarding the Ref Desk have been needlessly rude, as he himself admits: and disruptive recently, including his suggestion that the Ref Desk be deleted entirely. ] 03:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:Very good point, it's not nearly as serious as if you had asked him and he had refused- friday did it himself and then blamed him. LC posted it in the first place of course but he should have a chance.. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 20:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

As an addendum to all this, I am serious that users who use Misplaced Pages as a chat room or discussion place, should be encouraged to take that behaviour to ''genuine'' discussion forums. Lord knows there are enough IRC chatrooms and bulletin boards out there, and ] as well. ] 03:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*Support block. I like ] and I think he enjoys editing here. But he has to realize that his reference desk behaviour is crossing that murky line from making funny comments to being disruptive. If he shows a willingness to tone down his RD commentary on his talk page, I'd be in favour of unblocking -- ] 04:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
*Support block. This guy has been trolling, and the block will reduce disruption. Hopefully it will only be needed once. - ]</small> (]) 05:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
*I'm a non-admin, but I support the block. Comments like are not acceptable, especially in light of given question. Were this isolated, it would not be a problem, but he was warned, and continues to lawyer around with things like "you can't ''prove'' I meant that". I'm also worried by comments like "I've responded to any ''specific'' issues", which seem to be his way of saying, "I'm only going to respond to past questions, and not necessarily fix my behavior in the future." Friday had every right to remove offensive comments on sight; we don't just let ugly comments sit on the board, just so a user has the chance to go back and remove them later to prove his genuineness. ]<sup>]|]</sup> 06:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*I support. This guy is disruptive, and incivil. Viewing his comments on AN/I should tell you that in an instant. I probably won't remember to recheck this so if you have a comment on my comment, leave a message on my user talk. ] ] ] ] ] 08:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' this block. ] has admitted he is biased in this matter, and the "punishment" here is way out of line with the "crime": ''"But, I'll admit I'm personally irritated at him too, so if action needs to be taken I'd prefer someone else do it"'' . ] 09:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*I am a non-admin, and I '''oppose''' this block. Light current's reaction to criticism of his RD posts has been persistent but polite. I have seen no evidence that he has broken WP guidelines or policy. He has not been disruptive. Friday has over-reacted, and has allowed his feelings of irritation to override his judgement. He has abused his admin powers to pursue a personal disagreement with Light current. He has escalated from his initial AN/I post to a week long block in ''less than 24 hours''. If Friday thought a block was necessary, he should have proposed this course of action, given Light current a chance to defend himself, obtained concensus on the term of the block and asked an uninvolved admin to enact it. ] 09:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:*I agree with ]. ] 11:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:*So what you're saying is that it's OK for a user to post out-of-context comments about masturbation, camera voyeurism, and other inappropriate subjects, and then, when confronted, not to be penitent, but to lawyer, refuse to admit fault, to argue, and to obfuscate ("you don't know that's what I meant"). I'm sorry, posting nonsense like that, then pretending you did nothing wrong, after repeatedly being asked to stop is totally unacceptable. I'm sorry, he should know better than that. And, I know you're frustrated with Friday, but the fact is, that is an ''ongoing'' problem; this is far from the first time this user has been a problem in such areas. ]<sup>]|]</sup> 10:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::*An Admin should be neutral, but ] appears to "have it in for" ], resulting in his imposing a week long block for what is, at best, a minor problem. It appears as though ] was looking for any excuse to impose a block. ] has been willing to remove any of his posts which are found to be inappropriate, if given the chance. ], however, has not given him that chance. ] 11:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::In what areas? The ref desk? I don't recall having ever seen you there.

*The ref desk is going to die this way. A one week block?! I sometimes wonder what LC is talking about, but I don't find him disruptive at all. I still don't get what he is being blocked for. It's all about one single remark that he himself agreed to remove (had he been given a chance) and when Friday is asked for another example he restates the same one. Other examples given are from his own talk page. His own talk page! Is that a reason for a block? A ''one week'' block? Much more disruptive is factually wrong information, because that looks like a useful answer. That is not the case here. This is about a silly remark. If this sort of deletionist behaviour continues at the ref desk and those who protest it are blocked (in stead of the other way around) the ref desk will become dull, many useful editors will leave (there are too few already as it is) and the ref desk will die. I have already noticed this happening, as I predicted it would. And it's going to get worse. This censorship has to stop. No need to block me. I've done that myself. After thousands of edits over the last year I have decided to stop contributing to the ref desk. And this is probably my last contribution to this page too. It's all too childish for me to waste time on. If people get blocked for a week for something like this, I'm out of here. To those who say 'good riddance' (there will be those): I didn't get ] for my work at the ref desk for nothing. ] 13:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:*You are going to block yourself? From it looks like SCZenz blocked you, not yourself. This is not censorship. The reference desk needs to be kept on topic and focused. The more 'playful' and 'stream of consciousness' it becomes, the less useful it is. As I've said above, there are plenty of other places to joke around at, but ] is not one of them. FWIW, I too think the 1-week ban is too harsh, and I also think Friday needs to provide a clearer reason, and Friday should have left it to an uninvolved admin to impose a block, if needed. ] 13:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::*That block has ended. He is saying he will not participate in the Ref Desk in the future, even though allowed to do so, because of his disgust at the level of hostility aimed at certain Ref Desk contributors from certain Admins, such as ] and ]. ] 14:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Yup. You beat me to it once again. Btw, this is a nice example of how some people don't understand certain types of humour. Which is no reason to delete it. One note to what you said: I don't care if it's admins who do it. Any deletions (by others) at the ref desk are baaaaaad because there are about a thousand edtis per day there, which makes it impossible to keep track of deletions. If that issue is somehow resolved, notify me. I might return. ] 15:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Oppose one week block: Support 12/24-hour block:''' I did not see any warnings on ] so I was going to oppose any block pending adequate warning, but then I discovered that LC has prematurely archived the warning and lots of relevant discussion on this topic with . I find that disingenuous and it speaks to the need for administrative disincentive for inappropriate behavior (dare I say disruptive? don't mean to dis anyone). I have myself found some of LC's post to the forum frivilous and I personally have decided to ignore any questions posted by him. That is based on what I saw as "crying wolf", i.e. asking questions that he really had no desire to have answered, just for fun. I hinted at such in . I considered that LC was disrespectful to the fact that I had gone to the effort of giving him a legitimate answer to what I thought was a legitimate question. As I myself just consider LC overly playful I did not see fit to warn him otherwise. That Friday sees his behaviour as more serious is a matter for those two to sort out but to the degree that LC ignored the warning then he can have the block but one week is WAY excessive; 12 or 24 hours is better. --] 13:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::Note: SCZenz even (not 'archived') a warning template I placed on his talk page. When I asked other admins about this, the answer was that one can do whatever one likes at ones own talk page. Even though this was a bit more than just 'disingeneous'. ] 15:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I think that calling SCZenz' attempts to improve the desk according to his own understanding of purpose and policy; calling those efforts "vandalism" is baiting and he was justified to remove it. "Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism." I also think that admins that "don't like the reference desk" should give it a wide berth. I am not judging anyone there, I am simply making a comment. I further hope that LightCurrent (and others) can come to understand that the banter and off-topic junk on the Desks is an enjoyable '''aside''' to the real work of answering questions and is never to be started or encouraged as an end-in-itself. I hope that LC gets something out of all this effort and remains on the Desk. --] 16:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' one week block. I feel very strongly about this, as an RD regular. I think sometimes LC is over the top, but he's shown suitable contrition in response to the recent discussions. I regularly do RC patrol and report vandals. I see persistent, malicious blankers and offensive posters receive blocks much shorter than 1 week. And they are non penitent. Shorten this please. --] 14:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' block. Even if one accepted that Light current needed blocking, a one-week block is inappropriately harsh. Yesterday a spammer who created two articles spamming a website, who deleted spam tags from them, recreated the delteed articles twice after admin deletion, listed the article on the req for page protection page to try to protect it from *me* and the deleting admins, forged my signature, and then lied about it, requested a review of the block, got one, blanked the user page and requested another one, got the same--a week's blocking.
:Furthermore, even if one accepted that Light current needed blocking, the action for which he was blocked was under active & general discussion and it was premature to do so prior to some conclusion of that discussion, especially in the '''absence of clear, uncontradicted and unambiguous guidelines''' about the behavior for which he's been blocked.

: So I would appeal to Friday to rethink the week block and lift it, undoing the self-action, and parole Light current to time served. -] 15:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''block as clearly excessive. This is an unwarranted abuse of admin powers by user:Friday, who has previously proposed eliminating the reference desk: ''"I'm probably going against years of established practice here, but I fail to see how the reference desk adds encyclopedic value. It's a time-waster- why don't we just ditch the whole thing? Friday (talk) 18:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)"'' It is very hard to assume good faith when an admin proposes eliminating the reference desk then applies grossly excessive penalties to frequent contributors. ] 15:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:*Agreed, ] should recuse himself from all matters related the Ref Desk, as his extreme bias against the Ref Desk negatively affects his judgment in such matters. ] 15:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': Just a few remarks and I'll probably bow out of this. As for warnings, there were ''months'' of warnings prior to this from different people. Light current has been blocked for trolling before. This was blatantly obvious trolling yet he kept up his "innocent and clueless" routine. He's just looking for a reaction out of people- check out his attempts to engage in conversation after the block, acting like he doesn't know what he did wrong. I did start the discussion here well before blocking, and so far there seems to be admin consensus for the block. So, I'm not personally inclined to change it, however my standard offer still stands: if any admin disagrees with this and wants to change it, I invite them to do so. I don't "own" my blocks any more than we own our edits. I realize a week seems harsh here, but he was very obviously trolling and this has been an ongoing problem, apparently for quite a long while. I acknowledge this is a tricky situation- hardly any of Light current's edits, taking in isolation, seem remotely blockable. This is why I sought input from others before and after the block. Also, please- '''let's not let this turn into a perceived "admins versus reference desk" fight'''- I blocked one particular editor- discussion of other editors who are also problems are not relevant to this situation. If anyone cares to notice, after some initial disgust at the sorry state of the reference desk and me questioning whether it adds any value to the project, I've decided it IS valuable, so I've jumped in and started trying to help answer questions. I thank all the people who do useful work at the reference desk, or in any other part of the project. ] ] 15:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::You say '''let's not let this turn into a perceived "admins versus reference desk" fight''', after having said "there seems to be admin consensus for the block", thus implying that you ignore the opinions and consensus of non-Admins, and in particular Ref Desk contributors. Can't you see how ignoring the opinions of non-Admins causes just the type of problem you claim you want to avoid ? If you want everyone to work together, then you need to respect the opinions of everyone, not just Admins. ] 15:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:'''Attention! I'm going rogue and starting a wheel war!'''
:Er, by which I mean that I'm lifting the block on Light current. Per THB, I'm paroling him. I don't think that the block was undeserved, but I do think that LC has acknowledged () that some of his comments were inappropriate for the forum in which he made them and that his judgement has not been up to snuff on occasion.
:I think that leaving the block in place will shed more heat than light, as the mounting evidence here would suggest. LC is often a useful and productive contributor to the Ref Desk, and &ndash; providing he can restrain his occasional impulse towards off-colour humour and borderline newbie-biting &ndash; it would be a shame to lose that. I fear that we may have rushed into a block just when LC was starting to 'get' that the weight of opinion did ''not'' support his behaviour. I think it appropriate to give him a shot at reform. Note that I do not use the word 'parole' lightly, and I ''do'' expect that LC will make every reasonable effort to temper his remarks. His block ''will'' be restored (by me or by someone else) if he doesn't avail himself of this opportunity.
:Note also that I expect other parties (both to this specific incident and those involved in the broader Ref Desk discussions) to refrain from sniping, kicking LC or others while down, taunting, gloating, oh-so-'clever' remarks, or anything else that might be taken as a lapse in civility. I'll be all over any sort of 'I-told-you-so', namecalling, 'You-don't-have-a-right-to-talk-about-Ref-Desk-because-you're-not-there-as-much-as-I-am-so-sod-off', or other petty ugliness like stink on cheese. We're at the Reference Desk. We're supposed to be there to help our fellow human beings, and we're doing it because we're ''nice, friendly, helpful people''. Is everyone clear on that? ](]) 15:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::TenOfAllTrades, thank you for opening the door to lift his block. It would have been better had Friday done it, but Friday did leave the door unlocked and let it be known that it was unlocked, so that's a good thing. -] 15:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Endorse block''' on general principle. This seemed like a reasonable judgement call by the admin, and it isn't a horribly extended or indefinite block, so we shouldn't be second-guessing it. - ] 15:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
*It is hard to assume good faith when Friday applies an exceptionally long bloc for a minor offense on the part of a frequent contributor to Reference desk after Friday has said ''"I'm very serious. I stay away from the reference desk but have dropped in a few times lately due to reports of problems there. I was rather shocked at what I saw. I suppose we must let each editor contribute in their own way, but I've not seen a bigger time-waster here than the RD. This is an encyclopedia- the goals of the project go no further. When I buy a copy of Brittanica, I've bought an encyclopedia. I don't expect that this includes a guy who will come to my house, hold my hand, and read it to me. Is it reasonable to expect a reference desk? Not in my opinion. We're an encyclopedia, not a forum, and not a place to get other people to do your research for you. Friday (talk) 20:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)"'' ] 16:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

**Please note that my request to be utterly civil and courteous and to try to put this behind us wasn't actually solely for the pleasure of hearing myself type. It would be appreciated if you stopped quoting that remark on talk pages and noticeboards in an attempt to push Friday out of this discussion. If you look upward about six comments, you'll see that Friday has reconsidered his opinion on the Ref Desk, and is actually endeavouring to be a helpful participant there. In the same comment, he also explains that the block was not for a single incident, but for a pattern of behaviour &mdash; which we all hope and expect has now been remediated &ndash; from an editor who has received many warnings about his conduct. I will also note that Friday has expressed support for my approach to handling this block, and that he seems to be a pretty reasonable guy. I expect that he would have done exactly what I did had I sent him a polite message&mdash;I was just impatient at the bickering here. It is not appropriate to kick Light current while he's down, ''nor is it appropriate to try to lynch Friday while he's being reasonable and accomodating''. ](]) 16:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I think the idea is that if an admin is only starting to understand a project as radically unique as the RD, maybe he shouldn't be allowed to assert his admin powers there. Which I don't necessarily agree with by the way --]<sup>'''] ]'''</sup> 20:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey, can I assert my opinion into this one? I don't know if it's valuable here, but it looks like there's a long history of Light Current managing to find a way to get blocked, then unblocked. And the one time he wasn't unblocked was by Pschemp, and he's still bitter about that. In other words, perhaps we need to make it clear that infinite patience doesn't exist, and constantly walking the oline between appropriate and inappropriate, then acting like "poor persecuted me" when he called on it, won't be tolerated forever. That being said, he is a long-time contributer. I dunno: it's "yes, we love you at Misplaced Pages, no, you can't make masturbation and porn jokes out of context at ref desk after being warned for it." ]<sup>]|]</sup> 17:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:I'm confident that enough people have seen this pattern of behavior to ensure that it won't be allowed to continue unchecked. (can't keep my big mouth shut, sorry). ] ] 17:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Why are we so soft on a user who continues in a pattern of pushing the line? LC's actions appear childish and are frustrating when they happen again and again. i see this block as a cumulative effect of LC's own actions. Friday was right to block in such a situation, although, possibly a week was too long, but I do not know enough of this users background to judge. Regardless of the length of block, if these actions continue then the blocks should become progressively more severe. LC's claims of innocense, given the masturbation link posted by Friday above, are laughable. Go to usenet for toilet humour. ] ] 17:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Strong oppose block'''. Friday has a clear conflict of interest- see their back-and-forth in the latest archive of the RD talk. Other than that I would have said that he deserved it anyway (after due process, not this one day AN/I fiasco) but lately he really has been quite good about responding to criticisms and having an open mind about his behavior. Also, I'd like to say that I appreciate that friday is starting to understand the point of the RD. Admittedly it seems overblown and unnecessary at first glance but there really is a huge demand for it and light current is overall a positive contributor. I'd hate to lose him over this --]<sup>'''] ]'''</sup> 20:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Well just to round off this discussion, I would like to say that all this apparent waste of time has indeed shown something:

We '''all''' make mistakes, some more than others. He who never made a mistake, never made anything. Let us not judge too harshly, lest we be judged in the same manner. Peace on all! 8-)--] 23:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes, I'd like to thank all my supporters for defending me and pleading for me. And I will '''try''' not to hold it agianst anyone who supported my blocking. I think we ahave all leaneda little from this unpleasant episode. 8-)--] 23:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm coming in late to this, but I have to say that I oppose the block. I do think Light current is too flippant on the RD, and it would not hurt for him to be mentored, but I'm trying awfully hard to wonder why so many admins are suddenly hopping into the RD and tsktsking when they aren't regular participants. The RD has been running fine for months now, there is nothing wrong with the way those of us who do frequent do things there. We need to quit warring over this, guys. Try talking first, blocking second. I would support an RfC on Light Current. ]|] 00:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::Light current, rather than giving somewhat veiled threats to those who opposed you, is it possible you could just admit wrong-doing, say you're sorry, and promise to stop in the future? Amazingly, you seem unable to do this. Already on your talk page, talking about the ] on RD (having masturbation comments removed, what awful tyranny). Two ounces of penitence goes a long way. This is the kind of half-hearted backdoor response that's gotten you blocked 7 times. ]<sup>]|]</sup> 04:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't see how his opinion on censorship, listed on his own talk page, can be grounds for a complaint here. ] 13:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::I was responding to his above comment. i only came back and added the thing about censorship later when I found it. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 15:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - I am a completely neutral party here, having never even been to the RD. However, I just want to chime in and note that, after reading this report and the one above about the block of ], it seems to me that a number of users view the RD as a fiefdom and a lot of the debate here has been about "people who frequent" the RD and letting them do things their way, and criticisms of users who "don't usually hang around" at RD but nonetheless voiced opinions in these matters, as though they had no right to do so. Seems a little skewed to me.--] 05:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Breaching of my privacy ==
] '''repeatedly''' breaches my privacy by revealing of my real name: , . I warned him many times: and ]. I ask for his blocking. -- ] 15:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:Um... Is there any particular reason you disguised your edits as "fixing a link" or some such? -] <small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small> 15:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

If you look at you find that before my fix it pointed to nowhere. -- ] 15:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:You created an account that was the same as your real name and someone has realized that the same person operates both accounts? It seems you let the cat out of the bag, not -jkb- ] <sup>]</sup> 15:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I exercised ]. Revealing of my real name after I dropped it is breaching my privacy. -- ] 16:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::See pls . As i do not have so much time as some sock puppets (I have to go on with the which is my , not this), I am preparing a brief report on the user V.Z. and his sockpuppets, but it will take some time. In the mean time: he (all his accounts) has no right to vanish, as he did not left Wikipedie, in the contrary, he is attacking other users again. Thx, ] 16:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Right to Vanish is used for bad chosen accounts, not for people only. I '''wish''' to continue contributing to Misplaced Pages, but not under my real name which you use only to harass me, although I asked you to stop it. '''Many times''', but to no avail. -- ] 16:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:jkb, as Zacheus says, the right to vanish is used for poorly chosen accounts (amongst other things). Do not post personally identifiable information on the site - regardless of how right you think you are - it can lead to blocks. Zacheus, this sort of thing should be reported to ].
:Shell, does the right to vanish not apply here? Regardless of the user's actions, they have a right not to have their personal information posted on the site.-]<sup>]</sup> 16:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::: Thanks a lot, I did not know that. -- ] 07:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::When the personal information is relevant as an earlier account name of said person, that's questionable. -] <small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small> 16:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind, Right to Vanish applies only is you wish to leave the project. Otherwise, contributions under your old username may indeed be relevant and worth referencing. --] 17:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:Consulting the Right to Vanish page, "he Misplaced Pages projects will delete personal contributors at their request, provided it is not needed for administrative purposes." If this person has abandoned his previous account, then he cannot be accused of sockpuppetry, and thus, there is no administrative reason to include his personal information (including the previous account), if Zacheus is a person notable to merit an encyclopedia article, then this situation is also moot. It is up to -jkb- to either make a case for sockpuppetry involving that previous account with his personal name, or that the person merits an encyclopedia article. Until such time as he is making this case, there is no real need to include that username in any talk page, or article. --] 17:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::Please keep cool. @ Localzik: poorly coosen name - this is a joke, I guess. The user was an admin-bureaucrat on the czech wikipedia for two years, so I do not think he is that poor to judge what name he choose. And the accounts are notable, as there are dozens of attacks on meta pages, here and on czech wikipedia. The user announced, he wants to stay here (), so I must assume, he will harrase here again as he did after some other annoucements of leaving. And ad Puellanivis: I it is noit up to me. I already showed where this user manipulated the community. The user mus show, that he will not. See e.g. his lies about my - as he says - deleted pages on the Czech wiki ( and some 5 next ones). Thx and follow this sock puppet better, it is your domain not mine, I have to do in mine. PLEASE. ] 18:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:::: If I understand your poor English correctly you claim that I cannot choose a login name poorly, since I was a long-term bureaucrat. Thank you for your appreciation but I really chosen the bad login name. Before you came to wiki I had no problems. But after you came I am in a deep trouble since you stalk me and ignore my supplications to stop it.

:::: How can merely the accounts be notable?

:::: I did not make any attacs here or at Meta. Please, stop lying about me and be civil. You accused me being a known vandal and this practice is especially incivil. I never heard a word of excuse for your behaviour so far. Now it's time to do that.

:::: I did not harass anybody, especially not you. That's why I cannot continue to harass. So please, stop make such a silly accusations or I have to RfC of your behaviour.

:::: I did not manipulate anybody. If somebody disagree with you, it does not mean he or she was manipulated.

:::: I must not show nothing, here is not the Communist régime. I will resume to edit the articles if you stop breaching of my privacy.

:::: You deleted your pages: "17:26, 27. 1. 2006 -jkb- (Diskuse | příspěvky) maže "Wikipedista:-jkb-" (smazat)" Who is the liar then?

:::: Zacheus is not a sock puppet, since now it is my primary account. I left the account V. Z. altogether since I assume otherwise you would endlessly repeat its former name.

:::: -- ] 12:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Point taken. @-jkb-: your position appears well justified, I will not argue with that. Personal attacks are inappropriate, and expressing that he has done personal attacks before, and continues to do so under a new name is appropriate, even if that previous name is his full name. As an admin-bureaucrat, I certainly think it clear that he should have had sufficient knowledge to judge the quality of his name before he chose it. @Zacheus: Sorry, but it looks like the cat is out of the bag, you should have known what you were doing picking your real name to begin with. Envoking a pseudonym in order to evade people whom you have harassed, and continue to harass after envoking a right to vanish can easily be claimed as sock puppetry. Your Right to Vanish only applies if you lay low, drawing attention to yourself after changing your name and then claiming a violation of privacy due to the mentioning of your previous name is readily apparent as your fault, and I don't see any reason for giving you any remedy at all. --] 19:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:::: You were misinformed by -jkb-. You are the second victim of his behaviour as Mike Rosoft has apologized to me for believing him: "I would like to apologize for my suspicion. - Mike Rosoft 09:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)". I will no longer ask for an apology by victims -jkb-'s behaviour since this would create an endless list. -- ] 12:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

How was your current account first connected to your old account? If you are the one that said that account was you, then you waived your right to vanish. If he found out through some off-site means, then you might have a case against him, it would depend on the exact circumstances. --] 20:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:: It was done on Meta by Datrio. I asked for his desysopping because there was no reason for checking me. I did not commit any wikicrime by either my old account, or by my new account. -- ] 12:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:I have the impression one part of the situation isn't properly understood by some people here. The identity between the two accounts as such is not at issue. This user did two things in order to gain anonymity: (1) he gave up his old account and started up a new one, {{user|Zacheus}}; (2) in parallel, he had his old real-name account renamed to an anonymous abbreviation {{user|V. Z.}}. All he seems to be asking now is that when people have to refer to this old account, they use its current, anonymous handle rather than the old real-name one. This request seems reasonable, as it doesn't prevent anybody of talking about the old account and its contributions. Also, ] explicitly says that proliferation of real-name information should be avoided also in cases "of editors who have requested a change in username, but whose old signatures can still be found in archives". Since under the current circumstances there's no factual need for anybody to refer to the old account ''under its old handle,'' I don't see why we shouldn't follow his request. Unless a refusal to do so were merely in retaliation for whatever disruptive he did earlier, but that really ought not to be the case. ] ] 20:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::: Perfectly explained. Thank you. -- ] 12:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::Appropriately stated, and I have to agree that someone should be enabled to leave an account behind and start a new one without being claimed as a sockpuppet. But using a cloak of newly aquired anonymity to evade detection and continue harassment, should not be considered appropriate. But again, how was it determined that the two accounts were related? If Zacheus owned his previous contributions, then unfortunately, he has owned them, and those where his signature remained as his full name. There is a lot of difficulty dealing with this matter, as it's a big grey area where it has to be determined where the allowance of personal information that has already been released is appropriate or not. But if Zacheus owned his previous posts, then he linked himself to his old account, which had contained his full name, whether the account was changed to an anonymous initials or not.

::This is why the Right to Vanish can be so tricky, because you have to literally vanish completely, or you will end up exposing yourself. I have the same problem in real life after a legal name change, I continue to be confronted with my old name all over my company, because the computer systems are insistant on maintaining a recorad of my previous name, which then shows up everywhere. While I entirely empathize with Zacheus and his inability to shed his previous identity, that contained his real name, I cannot see how blocking someone outright for exposing the previous name is justified. I can only imagine that counselling be sought for the person using the full name, and try and reach an agreement that he would refer afterwards to use only their initials, in order to protect the other person's personal name. After having an admin relate that such a disclosure is not necessary for administrative purposes, then continued pushing of his real name would warrant a block. But without notifying -jkb- that such action is inappropriate, it seems unjustified to block him, since he is dealing with prevously disclosed public information. --] 21:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem of -jkb-'s behaviour lies in the fact that he uses '''now''' and intends to use '''in the future''' my real name, although the account with this name no longer exists. I have no problem that he used it '''in the past''', but since he does not wish to stop this harassment I see no other solution than to block him. In my view if he wishes to refer to my now abandoned account he should refer by its present name, which is "V. Z."

I personally notified to -jkb- that his behaviour is inappropriate and bannable. But, if you think he should warned by the community as well, I see no problem with that. I don't ask his blocking if he stops his harassment by revealing my real name. -- ] 12:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Future Perfect has this one correct, and I find -jkb-'s actions to be borderline harassment. Since all the contribs by User:Vxxxx Zxxxx have been reattributed to ], there is no administrative or technical reason to keep the old name around. Pointing out that ] formerly operated ] is appropriate, and if a case can be made that V. Z./Zacheus has edited disruptively, then go ahead and make it. But there is no reason to refer to the individual's real name at this point and it begins to become harassment. ] 22:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I just went deeply through the various pages of discussion on -jkb- and Zacheus's talk pages. There is a lot going on there, and it would seem that this was an argument on the cs: wikipedia, which has now spilled into en:, both sides claiming that the other is in the wrong, both having disclosed each other's personal information, and both claiming that it's not their job to do the admin's work of tracking down sockpuppets, etc. They both say that the history is well established in the cs: wikispace, and while I don't argue that it is, there is no reason to expect English wikipedians to be able to access that information easily. I see below someone is asking for a translation of Zacheus's user page, and I think that is appropriate. Having a trustworthy cs: sysop looped in for a neutral point of view that can follow issues on the cs: side of things may be a good idea. But over all, it looks like this is one big mess of a feud, and we don't have the capacity to easily enforce any issues here on en: unless it's in English. --] 22:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The way I see it, Zacheus released the personal information himself and after changing accounts linked himself to the old account. Because of that, we have no obligation to try and keep his personal information hidden. However, it would be nice to do so simply as an act of kindness, as it doesn't do any harm to use initials when referring to the old account. If -jkb- has a good reason to use the full name, he is entitled to, however it appears he's actually doing so simply to annoy Zacheus (I'm not going to even try and decide if Zacheus deserves it or not, I don't really care), which is not allowed under ]. So, to summarise, there is no privacy violation here, but there might well be some harassment going on (possibly both ways). --] 23:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:From my perspective at checkuser, where this first came up last week, Zacheus was never trying to hide the fact that the renamed account ] used to be his real name and belongs to him. For example, he has used the Zacheus account to change his old signatures. Since his actions are obvious to even a cursory check of his contribs , I think the main point here is to keep his real name off of google searches and so forth. In that context, I can't see any reason to continue using his real name except to keep the drama going. ] 23:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

While he has never tried to hide the rename, he seems to have a practical misunderstanding of the ability to perform a Right to Vanish. I agree that avoiding his full name would be on good standing to avoid this whole issue, but Zacheus has made repeated edits to archived public information. After a sysop or someone corrects his edit, he then decries them as violating his Right to Vanish (after returning the archived information to the original state.) Zacheus would have us perform a massive system wide %s/User Name/U. N./g on every page, and remove his mistake of using his full real name in the first place. Rather than detract prying eyes from his relation to V. Z., he has made a concerted effort to bring those prying eyes to the issue, and would like to see the entire RtV policy rewritten to be a requirement, rather than a best-effort. The RtV policy page on metapedia says in fact itself that no one can really guarentee the RtV exists at all, it's simply asking for a best-effort from people to follow it. As such, people should avoid using the previous name in new content, and Zacheus should avoid damaging archived pages. Both should stop harassing each other, and just let the issue die. As such Zacheus has very few edits that are anything but a campaign against -jkd- and -jkd- has vew edits that are anything but a compaign against the other. If either insists on continuing this behavior, either should be banned temporarily, whether they are underlyingly justified or not. Neither is working towards a solution. --] 00:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:: As Thatcher131 put it I have no problem '''now''' if somebody says Zacheus = V. Z., because Datrio has breached my privacy by revealing this fact and this can be no longer hidden. But I '''do''' have the problem if somebody says V. Z. is Vxxx Zxxx, since the account Vxxx Zxxx no longer exists and has '''no''' edits. Saying V. Z. is Vxxx Zxxx is thus the plain harassment.

:: I edited the archived pages because they pointed to nowhere and they used my old handle name. RtV says that people should correct broken links. And I did not harass -jkb-, but only very civilly asked him to stop using my real name. That's all.

:: I admit that the account Zacheus is one-purpose only, because after my experience with -jkb- I expected his behaviour. I use another account for ordinary work and I don't intend to provide it since it would target of another harassment. If you banned the account Zacheus (for what reason?) it would prevent me to use this another account legally. Thank you.

:: I really do wish the solution, but I don't know what else I should do. I asked him. To no avail. That's why I asked for his blocking. -- ] 12:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:I disagree about your interpretation of Right to Vanish. I think if he wants to change archives (merely to change his name Vxxxx Zxxxx to V. Z., that is fine. Of course, it leaves a trail a mile wide to his current name, but it would have the effect of making his name difficult to find on a casual google search. I helped him change the checkuser case archive with his name on it, and I don't particular care if he changes other archives, as long as he is only doing the name change. He should not be changing pages in other user's space, but I would also prefer that jkb not use his full name. He was kicked off the cs Misplaced Pages under his full name, but he has not done anything here to hide from or avoid so there is no reason to use his full name here.
:On your other point I agree wholeheartedly. I have obtained a partial translation of his user page and he is replying, in Czech, to other users on cs with whom he can no longer converse since he is banned there. If Zacheus wants his right to vanish to be respected, he should stop importing drama from cs. ] 03:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::I appreciate the effort to protect his privacy, but is there any reason we don't simply ban this troll as well? Zacheus clearly has no intention to contribute anything useful to the encyclopedia. Since his banning from cs, he's continued to troll here and on Meta, continuing uncivil language, wasting our time, and '''done nothing useful'''. And we already know he's a troll (banned by the cs arbcom). Any objections to blocking him? ]·] 03:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

: I would like to add I have a personal problem with Dmcdevit·t, because I have criticised him off-wiki. His speedy intention to ban me may be affected by this reason.

: Dmcdevit·t frequently accuses me being a troll, but did he have any proofs for that? I ask him for ] and to ]. I '''was''' always civil; if you don't wish to waste your time with problems of others, resing as a sysop. It is not a duty to be one. If 700 mainspace edits is not useful, what would you consider as useful? And please, if you refer to decision of '''two''' my enemies as decision of the ArbCom, consider as well that I was the bureaucrat for two years. It is too short period for you? -- ] 12:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I guess I'm wishy-washy on it. On the one hand, if he stopped using his user page to carry on the drama from cs, I'd be willing to leave him alone to see if he will become a good contributor. His prior account {{user|V. Z.}} has over 700 mainspace edits, which is not a lot, but not chicken feed either. On the other hand, part of his arb case involved rather serious allegations of privacy violations on his part, and he hasn't done anything since he arrived here except carry on the cs drama. I certainly wouldn't stick my neck out to unban him if someone else banned him. ] 04:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::::My response here: ], ] 16:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

: Please take any decision of Czech ArbCom with a reservation as you would take any decision of Communist court. They routinely blocked my attorneys, they routinely blocked even me. They months did nothing and then suddenly gave a verdict. The accusation was so poorly written that I was not able to defend myself. I could continue very long time about actions of this exemplary kangaroo court, but I don't any reason since no one from here wishes to end reign of terror on cs:. Last but not least: the verdict was anonymous. -- ] 12:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Admin plays detective...what next? ==

Ever want to sleuth down one of the long term vandals? Well a couple of people think I've succeeded. My summaries of the matter are at ] and], which I daresay make interesting reading especially if you put on a pair of dark sunglasses and play '']'' theme. If my evidence holds up to scrutiny, this guy has been disrupting Misplaced Pages's Catholicism, homosexuality, and crossdressing articles for 26 months without getting caught (December 8 will be his anniversary).

Trouble is, ''because'' he's been so slippery, I probably can't get a checkuser on this sock drawer. Doc Tropics suggested an RfC. I'd like to find out whether I'm right and if I'm on the mark I'd like to seek a community ban. So all of you ] types, come on over and bring your magnifying glass. This one might boggle your eyes. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 15:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:That took a while to read! You have amassed a bevy of suggestive evidence; statistically, Editor X could have won the lottery before being two people from the same town with the same in-depth knowledge and yet rather bizarre theories, unless of course, he has converts. In either case, the behavior is incredibly disruptive not just because of the behavior itself, but the subtly with which it undermines the article. The editor has already been almost completely unresponsive to discussion and attempts to reform their behavior including being dishonest when cornered - since it doesn't appear meaningful contact can be made, I'd support the idea of a community ban. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

: Blimey. That was a patient and thorough piece of work! I suspect that support for a ban based on this will be pretty much unanimous, but one could always take it to ArbCom in case of doubt. Gold star, either way. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 16:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::I can try and help you get a checkuser through but if he's on AOL it won't do any good. If you assemble a list of accounts with recent edits (<1 month) and a brief statement, go ahead and file it. I expect once more people read this they will support a ban without technical confirmation (which can only go back a few weeks in any case). ] 16:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I've invited one of these accounts to agree to a checkuser. How exactly does the AOL wrinkle crease this seam - would they be limited to confirming whether or not this person hails from Reston, Virginia? That could be enough in light of the other evidence. I'm not the least bit averse to naming him at AOL's abuse department and requesting they revoke his service. That would take considerably less effort than I've already spent undoing his damage. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 17:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::::If he's using AOL then I'm not sure how you can even be sure of his geographic location, since I think all US AOL addresses show up as Reston VA. Unless this editor made a specific slip-up which I am reluctant to discuss publically, the only thing checkuser could reveal is that each of the suspected accounts has edited from AOL. Since thousands of editors use AOL, this would not provide any confirmation that the accounts were operated by the same person. A check may still be productive if this person was careless in a certain way, or he may be using multiple ISPs where it would be easier to track him. ] 17:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::Okay, I see. To the best of my knowledge he's been a loyal AOL customer. They host his website - and as extraordinary as this is for an AOL homepage, of the 3 million-odd Google returns for a "Joan of Arc" search he's consistently numero uno. So regardless of his actual residence location I'm pretty sure AOL's abuse department could pinpoint him and I don't think he wants his service interrupted. What worries me more is his disruption on other topics, which appears to have been continuous - the homosexuality pages especially. I'm getting set to roll up my sleeves and dig into that evidence now that people take this matter seriously - he's clever but not ''too'' clever. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 17:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::The only thing checkuser can do then is, for any user name he has used in the last month or so, give you the IP address as of the time of its edits. This would probably not be released to you but could be forwarded to AOL's abuse department, so they could attempt to determine if the wikipedia vandal is the same person whose web site they host. I don't know what it would take to convince AOL to take action, though. ] 17:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Durova: All AOL users show up from Reston, Virginia. But the most important thing to keep in mind is that the IP address for AOL users is never linked to a specific account but instead is based on the page (URL) being viewed or edited -- see Misplaced Pages's information on this. It's very odd but that's how AOL IPs work for reasons known only to their engineers.
:::::::The upshot is that an IP check won't do any good and neither will reporting a set of IPs to AOL. They're likely to just ignore you because you won't be reporting a single and discrete user given that all users are on the same range of IPs. You will instead be telling them that some of the many millions of AOL subscribers happen to get those IPs while editing certain articles, which is not going to come as a surprise to them.
:::::::You can never be sure whether an AOL vandal is one person or a whole host of users who end up editing under the same IPs. Other websites such as BBs have the same problem. ] 17:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::::Thanks for the dissection of AOL's innards. Since I actually do have this vandal's real-life name, would AOL's abuse department take notice? <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 18:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::Well, aren't you assuming that the IPs are linked to that real name? They wouldn't necessarily be linked to a given individual, or even a single individual. And since anyone can claim to be anyone else on here, a name is not proof of identity. AOL cannot suspend someone's paid account based merely on an allegation. This comes up repeatedly on many websites since there's no way to tell who anyone really is on the internet. ] 19:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::Durova, with all due respect for your detective work, I'm a tad uncomfortable with you referring to the guy as a "vandal" and "long-term abuser". Did he ever get blocked? He's not currently banned under any of his accounts, is he? From your description I take it that his main accounts were used subsequently, not in parallel for blatant illegitimate sockpuppetry, or were they? I mean, I have no doubt he may be a disruptive POV-pusher, but has he done anything actually "illegal" in Misplaced Pages terms besides POV-pushing? And what would we expect his ISP to do about that, at this stage? Let's ban him if he's as disruptive as you say, and then we'll see - any new reincarnations of his will probably be easy enough to spot, once people are alerted. ] ] 19:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::So far as I know he's flown underneath nearly every radar except mine. In his earliest months ] tried to offer him some guidance. He was still trying to behave like a regular Wikipedian back then. One quick answer about sockpuppetry is ] (with several instances of blanking vandalism thrown in). ] demonstrates that he violates ], ], ], ], ], and ]. Possibly ] also. The damage he caused at ] has been incredibly pervasive and subtle - not just garden variety POV pushing but degrading footnotes, inserting inaccurate statements into previously cited material, and fraudulent citations. He even vanity published and faked the appearance of a legitimate scholarly journal in order to bypass site standards and cite himself. Note that the author name on the pseudojournal is the same as the name he self-identified on the original account, and that the IP inserted it while coyly avoiding use of the author's name at Misplaced Pages. Due to the high profile of the Joan of Arc article I acutally had to dig through several thousand edits to undo the harm that he caused - expending weeks of my time. If you need more evidence than I've already supplied at ] then say so and I'll dig up other examples and more diffs. The peculiar POV he pushes and the amount of scholarly background it reflects identify him as unique - how likely is it that two different people would strain the evidence to draw identical conclusions about a 1929 scholarly work available only in French? And describe their views with the same syntactical structure and leap into edit wars? I know how serious this allegation is and I wouldn't raise it unless I had researched this with extreme care. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 19:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::FWIW, I remember looking at the constributions of {{user|Center-for-Medieval-Studies}} after he edited some pages on the Dukes of Burgundy. He was accused at the time of being identical {{user|AWilliamson}} (see of him removing those from his talk page). IMO, this falls under the "users who aggressively and repeatedly violate fundamental policies" portion of the blocking policy, ] in particular. Faking up a vanity journal to insert your point of view is absolutely the sort of behavior for which you should be run out of Misplaced Pages on a rail — it's a direct attack on our credibility. I haven't been involved in any disputes with Center-for-Medieval-Studies, and haven't been involved in the ] article, so I feel I qualify as an uninvolved endorser of a ban. ] 22:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::I've got to give a nod to ]. During my first weeks as an editor he clued me in to some of this activity. That guy had an awful time because he'd been trying to watch Williamson for a year but lacked the academic expertise to challenge him in detail. Plus there was ''another'' disruptive editor at the article who pursued an entirely different agenda. Switi and I wound up holding conversations at my user talk page in German in order to dodge them (I didn't realize that was un-Wikipedian at the time). Switi finally quit the project a year ago and I can't say I blame him, but I hope he rejoins us someday. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 03:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:I would also support a ban.—]&bull;] 17:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::] has done an exceptional job of gathering and presenting evidence which, if accurate (and it appears to be), would certainly warrant a community ban for long-term systematic abuse. I had thought that ANI might not be able to respond to such a convoluted case, but between D's excellent summary, and the dedication of the editors who have posted here, I realize that I underestimated Wikipedians in general. Sometimes I'm actually quite happy to be wrong : ) ] <font color ="green">]</font > 18:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:I would also support a community ban (disclaimer: I've been involved in a dispute with the editor in question). I'd be more comfortable if there were technical confirmation, but for the reasons explained above it seems unlikely that ] will do any good--another reason to dislike AOL. ] (]) 18:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Cross posting the following from my user talk page: if any doubt remains, have a look at some diffs from ]'s talk page. This says "Archiving" in the edit note and an exceptionally small archive was created. The types of complaints and the topics covered bear an eerie similarity to AWilliamson, particularly ] and ]; talk page blanking and misleading edit summaries are also trademark Williamson tactics. He also performed a similar blanking that included the removal of a final block warning while marking the edit as minor. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 20:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:Honestly, the evidence you have collected is damning. I also have no problem in supporting a community ban.--] 21:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::Burn at the stake - erm, I mean I would also support banning this disruptive and time-consuming user. ]<sup>]</sup> 22:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

So far this is unanimous. Think the responses are enough to call a consensus? Much as I'd like to do the honors myself, since I ''am'' an involved editor it would be more appropriate for someone else to perform the ban. Then we could set up the suspected sockpuppets category. Who's got an itchy indef block finger today? <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 23:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Support permaban. Sneaky hoaxers are scrouge of Misplaced Pages. Still I fear that somebody would have to monitor the related articles and block the puppets. ] 01:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


A check of some of the allegations turns up the following.
*The most serious allegations revolved around the claim that the editor (or someone suspected of being the editor) was using a fanciful academic publication ("Primary Sources and Context Concerning Joan of Arc's Male Clothing" within the "Joan of Arc Primary Sources Series") and a fanciful nonprofit organization ("Academy (Association) for Joan of Arc Studies") to dishonestly include his own original research in Misplaced Pages. But a quick search finds the following entry at a government site which lists this organization as a registered nonprofit in good standing:
*And a search at Google Books finds the allegedly "bogus" book in print:
*A search at Google Scholar finds the "Joan of Arc Primary Sources Series" although only one item is currently indexed.
The most serious allegations are therefore clearly mistaken and some of the other allegations were based on an erroneous understanding of the manner in which AOL IPs are assigned. The rest were I believe mostly or entirely related to allegations of POV-pushing or suspected sockpuppetry, which are more subjective. If people want to vote for a ban anyway then that's the decision. ] 06:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:501c3 tax status is fairly easy to get and doesn't amount to validation of the content; I daresay some of these people were acting in good faith. I traded e-mails with Virginia Frohlick some years ago and she seemed very friendly, although she was ''much'' too quick to give credence to my assertions. She is, however, an amateur enthusiast who maintains a website and the only Google Scholars entry for her is another publication from the same organization. Likewise, the only Google Scholars return for Robert Wirth that does not appear to be incidental - there seems to be a medical doctor by the same name - is one of this organization's publications (although drew my interest briefly) For Margaret Walsh, the other claimed reviewer, there ''is'' a Margaret Walsh who is a professor of American economic and social history. Some of these names also turn up random returns in the hard sciences, dentistry, and medicine so I doubt these are the same person. It's been three months since I wrote the original summary and it doesn't particularly surprise me that this group has produced a hard copy edition of Williamson's study, but I see no reason to conclude that this nonprofit is anything other than the pet project of four people who have no formal expertise in their field. ''I'' could create a 501c3 organization with three friends, throw up a website, and print out a few copies of my pet theories - but that wouldn't make me an encyclopedic source. I'll post more on Williamson himself in a few moments. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 14:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::For starters, here's Allen Williamson's Google Scholar result - you decide if he looks like a real historian. On his original user page he claims to be ''a historian who specializes in Joan of Arc and her portion of the Hundred Years' War'' and claims to be a historian in talk page posts and at mediation but, to my knowledge, never identified his academic qualifications or affiliations. At ] the first question the talk page receives is from ] to ask which Center for Medieval Studies this is. The question went unanswered and the account blanked similar questions from other editors without reply. The account blanks other criticism without response including a suspected sockpuppet template and finally blanks all remaining material and redirects to both the user page and the talk page to a new account ] on 10 May 2006, one month after ] got blanked and redirected to ]. Assuming the anonymous AOL account is the same editor, here's a post where he manufactures a fraudulent citation and admits in the edit note that he chose the source because he thought I hadn't read it. Well I had read that source and he thoroughly misrepresented it. There can't be room for good faith in this instance because I had objected to the relevant passage the previous day and transcribed a quotation coauthored by the same historian in a later publication that vigorously denied any such claim. If other editors are curious about the subject details I'll go into those matters at my talk page - but to summarize this doesn't strike me as someone who's out of his depth but as someone whose every move is tainted by the need to advance his own peculiar opinions by any means necessary and who plays just as fast and loose with his sources as he does with Misplaced Pages's policies - so much so that I doubt he could pass peer review at any journal he didn't control. To be candid, I hold only a bachelor's degree in history from ] (my graduate studies were in another field) and my interest in Joan of Arc is an amateur one (although serious enough that I have traveled France to follow her campaigns). Yet I know the standard reference works and I can recognize when someone cherry picks data and distorts information in bizarre ways. Challenge me for more evidence if you aren't convinced: this case is so complex that I've held back to conserve space. I welcome scrutiny because I want to know whether I'm right and I think I have enough facts to satisfy reasonable doubt. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 23:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I don't have time right now to respond to all the topics you've raised, most of which are rather obscure. I'll post a reply later today or tomorrow. ] 05:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::: by Allen Williamson is a great example of self-published scholarship. It's available in two flavors, print and pdf. On Amazon, the "book" costs a whopping $5.00, which means it's probably a bound print-off of the pdf. The title page lists not only the editor, but the names of two peer reviewers. In legitimate scholarship, peer reviewers are not given credit for the work--there's a reason they call it "double blind". This work definitely fails ], but if anyone has any doubts, Amazon still has 2 copies in stock--order now, and it will be delivered before Christmas! ] (]) 06:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::I might as well add that the diff I showed for the IP's misuse of sources contained ''two'' fraudulent citations. His reference to ]'s will is another bizarre distortion. What's insidious is how the reader has to know this material as well as the perpetrator to even challenge it. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 14:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I have more time now. I guess I might as well cover several items in the same message since they're all interrelated.
::::::Yesterday Akhilleus alleged that a certain book by this organization is not valid because the peer reviewers are listed. I don't think that's justified since this type of disclosure has in fact become more common in recent years for a number of academic publications. For example see the following (see point 5 specifically) for an academic publication which lists the peer reviewers and accepting editors who recommended each article (only reviewers who rejected the work remain anonymous under their method).
::::::The low price is not too unusual for smaller books, especially at Amazon.
::::::Durova has brought up a number of subjects, mostly dealing with old debates and issues which are hard to follow. Some deal with the organization which you dispute.
::::::For starters, let's look up the organization's website. On one page it lists at least fifteen members in two categories without listing whatever others there may be aside from these "recent" ones. You had said the total was only four people. Googling the listed names finds that Stephen Richey authored at least one published book on Joan of Arc. François Janvier is evidently an official at the CAOA in the Department of the Meuse, France. François Thouvenin seems to be a translator with the Council of Europe in Strasbourg. Others could be Googled if I had time. The website also lists a publisher's ISBN prefix, which is definitely not cheap to buy. It lists an Employer Identification Number, a SAN, several ISSNs (which might take months to obtain from the Library of Congress) and a list of current or upcoming publications which include subjects such as military records, government docs, a "transcription of BNF fr 4488 ff 463-476" and a bunch of other stuff. This clearly extends beyond four people with one pdf file, I think. Remember that this ultimately comes back to the allegation that a dishonest editor had created or invented a bogus org so he could insert his own stuff into the article. A bit of searching indicates that this is wrong.
::::::Your objections to the people themselves have been of two types. One was based on a search for their names at Google Scholar, which is likely to be unreliable for several reasons. It looks like you initially didn't find the organization's publications there either although at least some of them do show up if you use certain keywords. It's also the case that Google Scholar is hardly exhaustive. The other argument was based on the assumption that certain anonymous IPs or accounts here are disguises for one of the members (which would be hard to prove). You assume that certain edits by these anons were deliberately made in bad faith and therefore undermine the person's credibility as a historian. In one case this was because (if I understand correctly) you believe he misrepresented an author's position with regard to specific pieces of evidence. After looking over the links to the old edits you provided it looks to me like the two of you were arguing about rather different issues (an author's mention of a document versus an author's view of a theory related to that document) and therefore misunderstanding each other. Here's why I think that. Looking at the first link you provided, we see him adding citations for two books which quote or mention some historical documents he was using to back up one of his own theories. Now, his edit comment specifically says he's citing a book by Pernoud because Pernoud "mentions this document" (he doesn't say Pernoud supports it) which his text lower down specifies is a letter from "the University of Paris.. to John of Luxembourg" which was among several documents which he said supported his theory that "Charles or his faction" attempted to save Joan of Arc. The other link you provided leads to your rebuttal which you based on a quote from one of Pernoud's other books in which Pernoud casts doubt on this theory and questions the reliability of the "Morosini" records... but it seems that neither of those two issues were the point. He wasn't saying Pernoud's book supported his theory but rather that this book by Pernoud "mentions" the University of Paris letter. This is "original research" on the anon's part but not dishonesty. You state that these rather ambiguous matters would undermine a specific real person's scholarly credentials ... which would not be the case even assuming that he was genuinely the anon in the first place.
::::::You also objected to a comment the anon made about Henry V's will in the same link. As far as I can see this refers to footnote 3 in that text in which he argues (I'm summarizing here) that the decision to keep Joan of Arc as a prisoner rather than letting her be "allowed ransom" was similar to previous cases in which important prisoners were also retained in this way. He gives as an example the case of Henry V retaining "the duke of Orléans" according to a statement given in Henry's will. You didn't say why you object to this, but I'll do my best to try to figure it out. Is it inaccurate to say that the duke of Orleans was retained as a prisoner by Henry V ? Or as with the other disputed Pernoud citation are you objecting to the reference to Pernoud because perhaps Pernoud may have disagreed with this theory as was the case with the other one? Since this reference to Pernoud's book occurs in the middle of the sentence right after the mention of Henry V's will but before any mention of the theory which compares the two cases, he doesn't seem to be attributing the theory itself to Pernoud but only the claim that Henry V's will ordered the duke of Orleans to be kept a prisoner. But I'm grasping at straws here to guess the specific objection since I don't think you stated the problem. At least not in your last note. ] 06:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Despite the practice of the Digital Medievalist, it is not common to disclose peer reviewers in most academic publications. Nor is it common for an association to publish original material that's authored by one member of the association and "peer reviewed" by two of the other members. This is a self-publishing house that isn't following standard academic rules. That's not surprising, because its members/contributors aren't academics--Chris Snidow and Catherine Hénon are and (or perhaps I should say pilgrims?); is, according to his webpage, "an editor, is a freelance writer by night, and ... loves Tolkien, the Beatles, and Joan of Arc..."; and Bob Perler apparently enjoyed the guided by Snidow and Henon. I'm sure that all of these people have a strong and sincere interest in Joan, but they don't have the credentials we expect from people who are running a research institute or academic press. At the risk of publicizing too much personal information (even though it's accesible through brief searching on the web), I'll note that the organization is headquartered at the residence of one of the members of the "academy", which is another indication that this isn't an academic organization.

By the way, ISBNs are not cheap, but they're not , either; a person could get a few contributors together to cover the cost, apply for 501c3 status, and voila, you have an "academy" that issues publications and a journal. ] (]) 08:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:The four people I listed were the four named in connection with this particular publication. As I stated before, some of them may have acted in good faith. My original summary was written three months ago, at which time the organization had no other members, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're trying to get something more serious off the ground. An author who self-publishes may have partners and a larger goal of building a real publishing firm.
:My earlier post traces a history of unethical behavior by Williamson and his probable sockpuppets in which he consistently attempts to put himself forward as more authoritative than he actually is. To address the two specific instances of misused citations:
::*''Henry V's will'' To explain why this is worse than garden variety OR requires background knowledge, a good deal of which I can demonstrate through the same book that Williamson cites. Henry V died seven years before Joan of Arc entered public life.(168, 266) That will did forbid any ransom of ] but did not in any way extend that prohibition into some general rule against ransoming prisoners.(193) Ransoms were one of the principal ways of profiting at war and the English accepted other war ransoms for French prisoners.(172, 190) The duke of Orléans was a special case because at the time of Henry V's death this duke was second in line to inherit the throne of France according to the Valois claim. This duke's son would later become king of France when the older line died out.(196) Henry V claimed legal right to inherit the French crown and had solidified his claim through marriage and treaty,(3) so his prohibition against this particular ransom had everything to do with dynastic succession and nothing to do with Joan of Arc: Henry V wanted to bequeath rulership of France to his infant son. Furthermore - even if by some stretch of the imagination this will did apply to her - Williamson claims this document held legal force in Burgundy, which it didn't. The English alliance with ] was not even a very cordial one.(170)
::*''Attempts to ransom Joan of Arc'' As my other diff demonstrates, there weren't any such attempts. Far from what Williamson tries to represent about Charles VII's actions, "cowardly abandonment" is the standard interpretation of his behavior while she was a prisoner.(167) Williamson's citation of a delegation from the University of Paris is completely misleading: Paris was not under control of the French king at this time and its university was solidly pro-English. The University of Paris endorsed the charges against Joan of Arc during her trial and many of her judges had some prior connection to that university.(125-126, 207-217) The delegation from the University of Paris that Williamson mentions is not any action on behalf of the French king - to make that implication in this context is absurd - and Morosini's rumor mill was unreliable: in August of the same year Morosini thought that Joan of Arc had escaped.(99)
::To summarize, Williamson has been laying traps for the uninformed. This is someone who knows exactly what he's doing and who sets out to fool people. One of his own edit summaries admits that he selected citations because he believed they were out of my depth. Before I joined the project he had successfully disrupted one of Misplaced Pages's core biographies for a year because - I think I can use a strong term without exaggeration - his other crankery actually was beyond the depth of previous editors. He constructs sophisticated exercises in ] while giving them a veneer of plausibility and the above two examples are by no means the only offenses. The good faith assumptions of editors such as EReference account for much of why I waited so long to raise this matter: as absurd as Williamson's claims really are, Misplaced Pages has at most a handful of editors who know this material in sufficient depth to challenge it on its own terms. So I had to build my own reputation for editing, investigations, and integrity before my charge could be taken seriously. If Misplaced Pages were a university I would have referred him for formal academic discipline in November 2005. While this assault on Misplaced Pages's credibility is significant, my real concern is for the students who relied upon us while his edits stood. At best, those students' time was wasted. More likely their grades suffered. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 15:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

==]==

This user has on many occassions: done personal attacks, assumed bad faith and reverted pages (repeatedly) without consent of other editors. He tends to "control" pages, and reverts to his personal opinion. He rarely discusses in talk pages about major changes and/or reverts. He also seems to enforce his own polices on some pages: which include ] and ] as recent examples. He has been caught violating 3RR in the past, and has came close to doing it other times as well. Other people can't seem to edit pages he likes, otherwise it's automatically reverted due to his opinion only. Some recent problems with him are a matter of a simple match order of an upcoming event. The order doesn't have to be in a certain order, but he seems to think it must be an exact copy of the match order listed on an official site of the event. There is no Pro Wrestling project policy on this, so it's his own policy that he believes everyone must follow... otherwise he reverts. Talk page discussions have started about this, and settled nothing because he won't budge on the matter. One person's opinion shouldn't be dominating articles. ] 22:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:Read the message at the top of this page. You might want to read ] and perhaps start an ] instead. ]]] 03:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::I was asked by an admin here to post about him: ]. Reasoning with TJ doesn't do anything. Look at talk pages for good examples of that. A recent example of TJ assuming bad faith:]. He claims someone has a vendetta against him. That's not needed one bit. RFC is an option I suppose. ] 19:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Another page to note: ]. The case for when TJ was checked for sock puppets (and revealed it was 3 accounts on the same computer), all of which were used to violated 3RR to at least one page. ] 20:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::::I have to echo GMKA here: this is a RFC-type situation. -]<sup>]</sup> 20:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::Well I did do the RFC route, but I got the page full protection as well: ]. Right after the protection, TJ goes to the talk page and assumes bad faith/attacks me, and tells me to leave it alone...and basically tells everyone just to agree with his opinion, so it can be unprotected right away. ] 01:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::I don't see TJ's most recent comment on the talk page as an attack. -- ''']''' 01:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::If it's not an attack, it's at least bad faith. He didn't need to comment with "leave it alone" or with the comment about "because you want things your way". Both weren't needed one bit and didn't help the discussion of the problem that got the page protected. ] 05:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Revert war on a question page ==

There's a revert war in progress at ] over whether a question posed by {{user0|Cyde}} should remain, or whether it is too inflammatory. Personally, I figure all bets are off with these things and that it's up to candidate whether he answers the question or not. Unfortunately (or, perhaps, fortunately), {{user0|Paul August}} is away until the 7th of this month. I bring this here for commentary on the broad question of whether admins, or anybody, should remove questions from these pages when the wishes of the candidate are unknown. I have no strong view beyond desiring an end to the revert war and the engendering of some good will here and there. ] ] 00:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:Its over.] 00:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::It's over for the moment because I've given up in the face of your twice reverting and twice undoing the protection I put in place in an effort to stop the revert war. You have no right to undo another admins' actions without prior discussion. If you disagreed with my protection, you should have discussed it with me, or on this page, but you seem to feel you're above that. I wouldn't mind so much if you were acting to keep trolling off the page, but wheel warring in order to restore trolling? ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Um... You can't just call a question trolling, without any sort of agreement, and then ''protect the page'' to prevent the "trolling question" from being added. -] <small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small> 01:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Of course I can. I consider the question to be a veiled personal attack intended to keep the Giano/Geogre/Kelly Martin situation going, with no purpose other than to cause trouble. Others were reverting it, Cyde kept restoring it, and so I removed it and protected. It was a perfectly justifiable admin action. If Geni disagreed, all he had to do was drop me a note or post here. He should not have taken it upon himself to unprotect and restore the question &mdash; twice. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Assuming for the sake of argument that your logic there makes sense, which I'm not sure it does, you were most certainly involved in the revert war, meaning that you are not allowed to protect. -] <small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small> 01:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I haven't been involved in editing that page before, or in any of the election questions about this issue. I removed the question, asked Cyde not to restore it, and protected. This was a perfectly legitimate series of admin actions. Anyone who disagreed only had to discuss it with me; I'm always open to undoing my own admin actions if people put forward a good argument. What I don't like is for others to assume they know better without any kind of discussion. Geni has a habit of doing that. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::. You removed it once, and asked him not to restore it. He did. You then reverted his restoration and protected the page so it would not be re-added. ''You can not use protection to enforce your preferred version of a page.'' -] <small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small> 01:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::::Amarkov, this will be my last comment about this, but I must object to your allegation that I mixed up the editor/admin roles. It was clear from the start that I was taking admin action, because I warned Cyde that he was behaving disruptively and risked a block. There's no need for people to arrive on pages waving a giant "I'm here as an admin" tag. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 02:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of all of our sanity, if Paul August has half the even temper and calm judgment that well over a hundred voters have expressed that they think he does, he can decide what to do with his own question page when he returns and whether it is worth answering or removing. (Sadly, it is by no means the most snide statement surrounding the elections that I have seen thus far.) I would think that it would be far less disruptive than warring over it, and it may well be informative to see how candidates handle such questions; it's not as though arbitrators don't get them in the course of their terms. ] ] 01:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

: Complete agreement with Mindspillage/Kat. For the record, SlimVirgin wasn't the first to remove Cyde's question (in a slightly different format) - Giano and Ghirlandajo removed slightly earlier versions. I was barely brave enough to ] ] (with great trepidation, since they're experienced contributors) ... but I am not foolhardy enough to get in a singlehanded wheel war with the legendary SlimVirgin. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::There's no there there. It was all over almost as quickly as it started. ] 23:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Yes, an admin stepped in as the page was getting inflamed. Another admin disagreed. The whole thing was over quickly. Time to move on. ] ] 23:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

== further out of wikipedia contact ==

Ok, I reported on this once before . If you want to read the completed consensus on it, it's here: (last diff I found on the topic). Well, the guy is back and still sending me emails to join social/dating/contact networks by email. I'm getting sick of this. Can something be done about this? I've told him twice to stop.] ] ] ] ] 07:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:I'm afraid I don't really see this as a matter for action on Misplaced Pages. ] - ] 10:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:: It is hard to see how it isn't. The person in question is using the Misplaced Pages email function to spam. Swat, have you tried simply listing the person's email address in a spam filter? ] 13:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::: This is not my reading of the note, particularly the previous report. It seems they have obtained this person's address, and are spamming them privately or are feeding their email address into dating sites as an "invite your friend" type feature. ] - ] 15:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*This is a very interesting case. May I ask how often you are getting these emails? In your previous post you said 3 in a month, which doesn't sound like much. Also consider that the offender might not even be aware of what he's doing: sometimes social-network sites have people upload the address book from their email client, which can include everyone they've ever sent mail to. You might be one of hundreds or even thousands, who knows. It's also (sadly) possible that the user may have been the victim of a virus or trojan which harvested your address and is now being used for spam. Obviously it's upsetting you if you're posting here about it, so I'm trying to think of a good solution. ] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 17:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I got another one today, this one asks me for my birthday. The one yesterday asked me for my address. I've gotten 5 in the past month or so. And no, he's not been infected with a trojan because he's adding in a personalized message "Hello this is mohammed salim khan from dherai swat, pakistan", which fits in with he user pages. Morwen: I think it is a wikipedia problem, because he is using the email function on wikipedia to gain my response and then using it for unwanted personal contact. That's a huge potential loophole for phishers/scammers, to email editors here with a seemingly valid question, and then use the responding addresses and spam them. ] ] ] ] ] 18:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:Look, he's already got your email address, right? So if we ban him, and stop him from using the email facility, and indeed remove your email from the site, then he's still got your email address and can continue to spam you? I don't mean to seem unsympathetic here, but what sort of action do you expect us to take? If I am misunderstanding the situation, and you never replied to one, he ''doesn't'' have your address and is still sending these things through the wikipedia's "e-mail" function, then we may be able to do something. ] - ] 23:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know exactly what action you're supposed to take. That's why I brought it up here, to get some sort of ideas. I can eventually get the spam filters to recognize his name and they'll block it out, but what's to stop him from doing it again through a different account? It's a policy issue that needs to be addressed because it's a potentially dangerous loophole. So I'm bringing it up here, because it's an incident, and it's something that requires administrator attention. ] ] ] ] ] 23:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:Do you want us to warn someone, block someone, delete something or protect something? If so, this is the right place for it. If not, then it needs to go to developers or possibly the community at large for discussion on what we want to ask the developers to do. ] - ] 01:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Morwen, I'm here because I don't know what the policy is regarding out of wikipedia harrassment. I think that an official warning at the minimum is in order, though it's up to the administrators which user it would go to, because he has something like 8 user accounts (which I've posted about here before). If there's a way to disable the Special:emailuser function for his accounts, that's actually the best way. However, I'm asking here what the policy is. This is an incident. It requires administrator attention. Hence, here. (Note, I think it should go to the developers as well, but that doesn't preclude action here). ] ] ] ] ] 06:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:I think SWATJester has a valid point here; if people are phishing via Misplaced Pages email, in any form, then we have a problem. Just because we don't have a policy yet doesn't mean that we should pretend that it's not a problem if it happens. I don't know what the right answer is; it could range from "be careful who you respond to WP email from" as a user warning, to blocking or banning any WP account found to be doing this, with quite a range in between. But it's worth starting a policy discussion about. This is probably not the right place, but figuring out where the right place is, and asking if there's an informal consensus for doing something on a preliminary basis, are reasonable here. ] 06:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Personal attack block review: Kumarnator ==

I've blocked {{user|Kumarnator}} for 48 hours for making remark. I'm putting the block for review. Also, this user has previously been blocked for on the same user (who was blocked himself).

I'm putting the block on review. Feel free to unblock if necessary (but given the racist comments, I hardly expect that to happen.) Thanks. --] 08:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
*Support block. ]] 08:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
* Support block. - ] (]) 09:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
*Support block, but it is more lenient than I would have been. Sorry if I'm not supposed to respond to this.--] 09:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
**Non-admins are welcome to join in the discussions on the admin noticeboards. ]] 10:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
*Support block. And yes I agree. It probably should've been for a week since he had just gotten off a 24 hour block for physical threats...and that one should've been 48. :) We have a very low tolerance for both overt racism and threats. --]<sup>]</sup> 11:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

**Well, feel free to extend the block. Thanks. --] 11:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
*Support block as non-admin, and IMO, it should be a week. ] 13:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
*I am an Arab myself and i really am not sensitive to comments like that. However, i am at the same time a wikipedian and i am wondering if users like this would be able to enhance this encyclopaedia ever! I fully support the block but i'd be harsh if it is repeated next time. -- '']'' Ω <small>]</small> 13:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
*Support block and would agree if someone wanted to lengthen -- ] 23:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

== Fresh batch of usernames ==

<s>] seems a fairly evident delete, and </s>taking into account his contributions, I'd say that ] is over the line too. ] 09:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:if he wasn't editing anything in regards to warcriminals, it wouldn't bother me so much, but he is, and not in a good way. BLocked. ] | ] 23:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

==User: BooyakaDell, sock of user:JB196?==

] was banned in September for edit warring over tags and creating conflicts on numerous pages that have to do with ]. He continued to vandalized pages as an anonymous user to the point that some articles had to be semi-protected several times over. ] registered in Mid-November, and has virtually the same modus operandi, editwarring over tags and adding PROD's to wrestling articles he thinks are not notable (not a valid reason for PROD'ing on several articles). Due to length of time between original user being banned, and this possible sockpuppet account being created, checkuser was not an option, although there is still a suspected sockpuppet account page. Any suggestions? Thanks! ] 14:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:Completely agree with this, and thanks for adding the incident, Fozzie! If my view is worth anything, I believe that this is definitely ]. For those who are interested, I put a note about this in ] (I think that's the right acronym!) as well under section 4 (registered users). ] 21:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Please see my comments on my talk page (am Adopter of BooyakaDell - ]) - ]. For the record I don't think that dealing with the Sockpuppet case is the way to go - as a Checkuser has proved not workable - see ]. Cheers ] 17:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:I must note that BooyakaDell signs posts the same way as JB196 did, with no space between the full stop and the signature (i.e. This.&ndash;&ndash; ''']'''<sup><small>(])</small></sup> 11:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)) which along with the MO seems to be more evidence of sockpuppetry. &ndash;&ndash; ''']'''<sup><small>(])</small></sup> 11:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] ==

* {{User|Moby_Dick}}
* ] (])
* ]
* ]

I'd like to have a second opinion on this. Is the a violation of the arbcom remedies (also mind the clarification)? This was his first edit since November 13 2006.

On November 12-13 he was same time active on commons and he wasn't uploading images. Instead his focus seemed to be me. Aside from that he wasn't active at all since august neither here on en.wiki or on commons.wiki.

--<small>] ]</small> 18:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:Well? --<small>] ]</small> 00:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::I'm not sure if this would constitute "harassing or stalking" you unless he continues with more posts. One post of "makes for interesting reading!" doesn't seem to be either harrassment or stalking. Anyone else want to comment? ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]o]</small></sup> 00:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Your comment would be right to any new/old user without the arbcom remedies Moby has. Besides that was his first edit for roughly a month. He is stalking me unless he had accidentally stumbled on my talk page. --<small>] ]</small> 03:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::::He might also, reasonably, have read . His comment is right below your link (which included his name). How is it "stalking" to respond to a post naming him? Particularly since, as you say, "that was his first edit for roughly a month"? <small>&ndash; ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> ''11:50, 7 Dec 2006 (UTC).''</small>

:::::Still advocating moby dick huh? Have a read of ] essay. You have been blocked for this behavior on commons '''indefinitely''' for it .
:::::--<small>] ]</small> 17:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::Pointing out the above omitted possibility is "advocacy"? And such "advocacy" is a blockable offense? According to , the block is "For making threats against Cool Cat and others," but , only announced that this repeated question is being , so the false and defamatory charge has been left up going on three weeks now, with no right of rebuttal. How strange. Yet two of the people endorsing this action are ; what a lovely prospect for dispute resolutions all over the Wikis. And to think this current furore started with you , then trying to for . <small>&ndash; ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> ''18:56, 7 Dec 2006 (UTC).''</small>

:::::What are the odds of a person who is completely inactive to be checking the RfAr page. Theoraticaly it is possible of course. He could be watching my talk page as well. These are all plasuable ways to 'stalk' a person. Regardless, its something he is prohibited from doing. He is merely tricking the system as he had been doing for months (nearly two years if you count Davenbelle).
:::::--<small>] ]</small> 17:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::''"What are the odds of a person who is completely inactive to be checking the RfAr page" ?'' It seems like a reasonable precaution for someone who's seen new accusations made against him in an attempt to block him (for complaining when his user page was repeatedly blanked, as noted and linked above). <small>&ndash; ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> ''22:41, 7 Dec 2006 (UTC).''</small>

::Well if you guys are so in love with moby dicks contribution, I am out of here. --<small>] ]</small> 09:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't think users are in love w/ MD. They've just given their views after checking the edits. MD's edit on your talk page is a comment to your ]. Just forget about the issue unless he deliberately harrass you. -- '']'' ] <small>]</small> 15:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::::He has a record of deliberately harassing me. That is his entire contribution with the exception of very few minor edits. That very link explains the arbitration hearing. He is practically taunting me... I can ''legally'' link to any arbitration hearing of my choice at my convinance. Check both his commons and en.wiki contribution and you will see a preoccupation with me.
::::Let me ask this in a different way, if you were under the remedies moby dick is under, would you be doing what moby is doing?
::::--<small>] ]</small> 17:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::He surely has a record and the ] was a result of that same record. However, his edit on your talk page is not a ''de facto'' harrassement. He's just commented on something related to his case. You were discussing the ] issue and made and you made an analogy between what was happening in the article and MD's case. Note that MD hasn't been involved neither in the article nor in the . So the question is why did you have to refer to his case while discussing another issue. -- '']'' ] <small>]</small> 18:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::The person I was talking to (hustnoc) was feeling harassed so I asked him to review my past arbcom case about harassment so he can compare his and that case. Obviously he isn't 'stalked' if you compare it to my case... Discussion was not even about moby dick and his nick is only visible if someone looks at the source. --<small>] ]</small> 20:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::So his simply looking at your talk page wouldn't give away that you were discussing his case. So much for the idea that he was stalking you. But either <small>''(here restricted to user-talk-space to shorten the list)''</small> or looking at the would show him that page. You've just cleared him. Thanks. <small>&ndash; ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> ''22:28, 7 Dec 2006 (UTC).''</small>

==Requesting block for non-consensus page moves==
I am requesting that {{user5|Yaksha}} be blocked for engaging in hundreds of non-consensus page moves. There has been no attempt to go through ], and requests on Yaksha's talkpage to cease the moves have been to no avail. Edit summaries claim that the moves are in accordance with ]; however that guideline is clearly in dispute, as is evidenced by ], which Yaksha has supposedly "agreed" to , but such agreement has not seemed to stop continued bad faith actions. Immediate admin intervention is requested, to prevent further disruption of hundreds more pages. --] 19:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:I disagree with blocking anyone or stopping any page moves. {{user|Josiah Rowe}} is another admin who has been involved in the discussion at ] and has also supported page moves. —] (]) 19:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:: Both Josiah Rowe and Wknight94 are actively involved in the dispute, as can be seen at the Mediation page, and as such are not in any position to be making decisions about blocks. Further, as admins, both of you should be speaking up to stop non-consensus moves, rather than encouraging unilateral action by what is clearly a secondary user account. --] 19:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:::"Non-consensus moves" is a blatant mischaracterization that you've repeatedly made with no evidence to support it. Actively involved or not, I can make a recommendation. —] (]) 19:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, could you spicify which policy was violated by Yaksha? It is not the first time that we see you forum shopping for blocks on this page, therefore each of your complaints should be scrutinized more than carefully. If you dispute Yaksha's actions, why don't you pursue standart dispute resolution procedures? This page is not part of the DR process, you know. --<font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 19:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

: Per ], controversial moves need to be formally requested and debated. There has been ''no'' such attempt for the articles that Yaksha is moving -- not even so much as a courtesy note at the series page. As for ], both MedCom and MedCab are in-process, but Yaksha is proceeding with the moves anyway. I would also point out that the series page had a clear notice at the top of the page showing how episodes were to be named, which, though it had been there for many months, Yaksha removed without any attempt at discussion. . This is clearly a disruptive user who is acting without consensus, and needs to be stopped. --] 19:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As I have seen how much damage such unilateral moves can do, I strongly support Elonka - if the users ignores warnings and discussions, and disrupts wiki with moves, blocks are in order.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 20:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:I must strongly support Elonkas position, there has been a lot of patience towards these unilateral moves and a lot of requests for them to stop. <small><font face="Tahoma">'''thanks'''/] ] ]</font></small> 20:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I support these moves and strongly oppose any block. ] says that moves may be simply moved by an editor if they are not controversial - I don't consider them controversial, since the moves follow WP:D, WP:NAME and consensus agreement at WP:TV-NAME I feel they do have consensus support. In the cases where a RM was used, there have been comments asking why it was needed. I consider one or two editors making a blanket declaration that a potential move of ''any'' TV article would be controversial to be a disruptive attempt to slow consensus action by making it as cumbersome as possible. On a similar RM that is going on now, MatthewFenton even went so far as to suggest that each page move should have a seperate RM with a separate discussion (even though there's currently a clear consensus to pass the move). I find it incredibly bad faith on Elonka's part to complain about unilateral page moves and then within minutes, start doing edits and page moves on those very same pages (with a "per ANI" edit summary, even though no admin here has given her permission to move pages back). And neither medcom nor medcab are in progress - medcom was attempted but multiple users, including myself, declined because of Elonka's continued evidence of bad faith. Elonka tried starting a medcab case, but I doubt it will go anywhere either for the same reasons. I don't see potential mediation as a reason to ignore wikipedia guidelines (particularly when, in the absence of WP:TV-NAME, the moves are still supported by WP:D and WP:NAME), if anything I see Elonka's "attempts" at mediation as an excuse to try to get a de-facto "injunction" and try and stop consensus moves. As were her attempts to unilaterally declare WP:TV-NAME "in dispute", even revert warring in an attempt to ad a "disputed" tag. --] 20:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As a demonstration of good faith, at least two formal requested moves have taken place with in this dispute. One is still in progress, ], the other was ]. We continue to establish a consensus over and over again. -- ] 21:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

===Statement from the ]===
These page moves have been made unilaterally and without established consensus from all parties involved. This is disruptive to a ]. However, I cannot endorse a block or lack thereof due to our committee's commitment to remaining neutral in disputes. I do beg ] to please cease her actions until consensus has been reached, and allow the pages to be moved back to where they were for the time being.
::''On behalf of the Mediation Committee,'' <span style="color:red;font-weight:bold">^</span>]<sup></span>]]</sup>&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">19:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)</em>

For further reference, please see ]. —] (]) 20:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Demon, might I ask you to clarify your statement? It is being interpreted by Elonka as an official decree that there is no consensus for WP:TV-NAME. It looks to me like you're just saying there's no consensus for this particular group of moves. Please clarify, as Elonka is already using your comments as ammo elsewhere. Thanks. --] 21:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Five parties have disagreed to the mediation request. It's no longer a potential case, it's a case awaiting official rejection. -- ] 21:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The page moves are not unilateral. Many editors have been helping with page moves since the start of the month. The mediation suddenly popping up shouldn't be an extra excuse for Elonka to complain about them. The moves do have consensus - this much is obvious from the results of the one Request Move entry which i did file (] is the Request Move entry which i filed, after Lost editors insisted there was consensus to not move the articles. We ended at 15 support vs. 3 oppose, and the RM closed with a "all moved"). They also directly follow naming conventions, not only ] (not the convention itself was never under debate, just the issue of whether and how to allow exceptions) but also ]. --] 00:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:I've filed in a Request Moves for one TMNT03 episode, where the move was reverted by Elonka. The RM can be found ]. Guess this would be a good time to see exactly how far Elonka's claim of my page moves being "against consensus" and "unilateral". --] 00:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:: Per the request of ] above, I recommend that this and any further RMs which are submitted by parties to this dispute -- no matter who submits them -- be speedily closed. --] 01:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::: Excuse me? but since when did the MedCom have that kind of authority? You ask for me to be blocked, on the basis that i'm not going through Request Moves to make page moves. So i put one of the moves which you reverted through Request Moves, and you ask for it to be closed?
::: Exactly what are you trying to do? You complain about my page moves being non-consensus. When all the Request Moves filed so far show the moves to be very much pro-consensus. So you decide it's not good for your case and instead demand us close off the Request Moves?
::: So moving without Request MOves means you threaten to block me, and moving with Request Moves means you ask for speedy closes? Exactly how are we supposed to get anything moved?
::: Or is your entire tactic to simply delay the moving until we all get bored and decide to leave?
::: Seriously, all the Request Moves show clear consensus for moves. Just deal with it and stop trying to stir up problems that don't exist. --] 01:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::: For the record, most of the users participating in this ANI thread so far (including myself, Wknight94, Ned Scott, Milo H Minderbinder, and Yaksha (<font color="#330066"><b>`/aksha</b></font>) are actively involved in the dispute, leaving the only outside opinions so far to be those of Ghirla, Piotrus, and ^demon. Additional neutral admin opinions would be appreciated. --] 03:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

===MAJOR CLARIFICATION===
Once again, I am NOT endorsing the pages be one way or the other, NOR do I request that the moves go through a particular medium. However, I am notifying here in addition to at ] that the ''mediation has been rejected.'' I do not see mediation as being successful through our medium. I leave you with this: I suggest everyone involved stop what they're doing, calm down, then try to figure it out again. Massive page moving (whether with consensus or not) is not going to solve this debate.
::''On the behalf of the Mediation Committee,'' <span style="color:red;font-weight:bold">^</span>]<sup></span>]]</sup>&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">01:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)</em>

:Let me just drop a clarification in here: A mediator may issue a request to a party in mediation to cease a certain behavior for the good of the mediation; it is not, however, an enforceable directive outside the mediation. Mediators do not have the power to order parties to do or not do certain things; mediations are always voluntary. What a mediator can do, and what this has forced ^demon to do, is close the mediation as a failure, if the parties are not willing to refrain from conduct that harms the mediation. So, to be clear: ^demon was within policy to make the request to cease, and he is within policy to close the mediation. Failure to abide by the mediator's request is not enforceable outside the mediation (Note to everyone involved: If you're trying to get anyone blocked based on this, stop, it isn't going to happen.); it is, however, cause for the mediation to be closed as failed. If the parties are still interested in settling the issue, they'll need to seek an RfC or arbitration.
:''For the Mediation Committee,'' <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ]</span>, ''Chairman of the Mediation Committee'' 02:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== {{user|Pooter-the-clown}} ==
*A probable sock puppet of {{user|Lieutenant Dol Grenn}}, only more aggressive than the previous one, constantly removing warnings from his talk page as "vandalism" and engaging in edit wars in various articles, including ] (where he tries to sneak in unverifiable information, namely height and weight, previously removed from the page precisely because of edit wars started by him). ] 19:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
**I have noted this behavior as well. Would appreciate some oversight from other admins. ] 19:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::Note: Pooter deleted this section approx 2 minutes after its creation. ] <font color ="green">]</font > 19:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

My superficial reading is both have an obsession with tall men and an odd syntax to their comments on talk pages, so unless we want to do a full RFCU I'm thinking its a sock as well. Certainly the block on Pooter for removing this section here is valid, as he stated on Kukini's talk page that 'hes a wikipedian and knows wikipedia's rules'. ] 20:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

An outsider's opinion; his phrasing and an obsession with heights, particularly Streetfighter and ], indicate a clear likeness to {{user|Lieutenant Dol Grenn}}. See . ] 01:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== 209.250.182.2xx ==

I've been noticing three IPs vandalizing the ] article. They are:
*209.250.182.217
*209.250.182.226
*209.250.182.233
Please block them, I'm about to use the {{]}}. ] 19:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:rangeblocked 209.250.182.0/24 for 24 hours. ] 20:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::Catholic school in Ontario. Charming. ] 20:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

== Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley ==

There's a revert war going on between anonymous editors at ] which includes allegations that a libel proceeding has been started against Misplaced Pages. --] 20:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:It appears the relevant edits have been deleted, as I (a non-admin) can't read them. Is the ] aware of this situation? ] 21:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::I guess oversight has been used. You can see some of the user's other contributions ]. ]. &#147;] ] ]&#148;. 00:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:: Yes, the edits have been deleted/hidden now, although as Fys points out similar edits still exist on other articles from that IP. --] 03:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] flood ==

and , among a few others. No idea what's it all about, but have a lookout on the newuser log in the following days. A CheckUser might want to have a look and identify the underlying IP, so we can react quickly in the future. ]]] 20:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::But wait... "banning this ISP isnt smart"... LOL. Nothing like having your point so vague that nobody has any idea what you are talking about. It's like a manifesto that says "boy am I ticked off about something".--] 21:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Looking at more of the log, I'm going to guess this is someone ] blocked... and the AN/I report below seems to suggest this as well.--] 21:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Yes, it's him. He placed an odd threat on my talk page after I blocked two of his accounts, IP ].--<strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 22:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::As I noted below, as of now, this IP hasn't been blocked, or even warned. ] 00:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Block enforcement requested ==

{{vandal|88.154.26.128}} is a sockpuppet of {{user|Roitr}} (see ]) and is repeatedly adding incorrect information to {{article|Military ranks of the Soviet Union}}. Can an admin block and/or semiprotect please? Thanks! ] 20:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:It's been a few hours since the last sock revert, so there's no need for protection at this time. That IP has now been blocked, though. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]o]</small></sup> 00:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

==] socks==
I just nominated ] for speedy deletion because it is pretty apparent the creator ] is a ] ] or impersonator based on the edit history. I've not gotten around to recording all of the socks I've noticed, but it appears that Nintendude (and possibly friends meatpuppeting) have created many accounts to continue his type of vandalism, and my guess is he's now trying to publicize himself as a WoW-esqe troll. He appears to have IP edited ] with and a look at this IP history shows that this IP has edited ] in the past, as well as edited other articles Nintendude has shown an interest in . has had a few non-vandalism edits, but none of them are sourced, encyclopedic additions from what I see. Is it in anyway possible to see what user accounts if any were created by this IP and if this IP has been creating these suspected Nintendude socks, to block this IP from editing or new user creation? It may not stop Nintendude, but it would as least make it a bit harder for him per ].--] 21:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
*It's a username block waiting to happen, too (see ]). -]<sup>]</sup> 22:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] and sockpuppets ==

This user was blocked by ] today for spamming . He then returned under several socks, all blocked for the same reasons (such as ]- blocked by ], ]/] - blocked by ]). His IP (]) now left this message on my talk page , followed by this one . I kindly request comment on this user's behavior and adequate procedures to take against his actions. Thank you.--<strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 21:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:Hmmm, based on his comments you almost have to wonder if this is related to ] since you and Crzrussian are mentioned in usernames registered.--] 21:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::Yes, it's most likely the same user. Thanks for noticing this.--<strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 22:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Note that as of now, this IP has not been blocked, or even warned. ] 00:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::I was thinking about blocking it, but the IP keeps changing every time the vandal logs in apparently. Maybe only a range block could prove effective. Blocked now anyway.--<strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 00:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== ], ] and ] ==
I have removed pictures at ] and at ] because they were being used in violation of ] (screenshots from videos that weren't used as critical commentary for the video in question). {{user|67.33.61.18}} continues to reinsert the pictures into the articles in spite of warnings and a polite request by me on the IP talk page. I have also warned about ]. Please advise if I am erring. Thank you in advance! -- ]<font color="darkblue" size="" face="Constantia">''']'''</font> <sup>] | ]</sup> 21:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:You weren't erring. I just deleted the two images in question; we don't have a use for them that meets ]. Incidentally, it should be pretty easy to find some freely licensed images of these people. ] 21:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

== ], ] and ] ==

] has been speedy deleted 3 times today, and it has just been reposted by {{user|Spinalcords}}, who is most likely a sockpuppet of {{user|Spinalcord}}, previous creator of the article, or {{user|Cyberpunker}}, original poster. Similar situation for related articles ] and ].

I suggest that all users mentioned are blocked and the pages protected against creation (I already placed a separate request for that). --<span style="font-family:verdana"> ]</span></span><sup>]</sup></span> 22:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:Looks like the articles have been deleted and salted. Your warnings/notes on their talk pages should be good enough as these are the only articles to which they've contributed. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]o]</small></sup> 23:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] ==

I really don't know where to begin on this one, but I just want to keep in mind that this conflict is nowhere new, yet it has for a while remained dormant...until today. Anyway in the past there has been many incidents when this user, has repeatedly stalked on my edits and in some cases it came to pure trolling... like these three edits on ] , , , , before the article was . On demand I can provide at least thirty examples where he stalked on my edits like that, and as this one shows, he did it (and at times continues to) by using a dynamic IP to avoid blockage...it really reached its peak moment on ] this example is a showcase of just how ridiculous this user can be. Originally it was about getting rid of a title that was inputed by a user who was not aware of wiki policies and functions. I moved it back to the translit version Maladzechna . Like any stalker would do so, he went straight at it and . That begun a four month dispute where I went on all possible attempts, including ] that was (and now is) to be a guideline for article titles...And I got the most stubborn resistance one has ever seen (]). Even after you had ], and when it eventually came to a point where no one would challenge on which title the article should rest, he went on ] resisting the change... In the end we did move the page...and the word Maladzechna became Malad'''y'''echna... That's right four months of his stubborn resistance just to add a y... Does one laugh or cry about this?

Now then October/November he is absent on wikipedia. But, recentely he has returned, and really I just do not like knowing that every single edit of mine, particulary on sensitive articles is bound to get reverted by him w/o any consensus or discussion... Really its annoyance more than anything... However there is a ] policy which clearly dictates that such behaivour is unacceptable, regardless of what form my edits happen to be. So I decided let it be sooner than later, and managed to set a trap for him. If one can go to my contribs , then all edits between 14:36, 6 December 2006 and 14:38, 6 December 2006 were made deliberately to check his response...and what do you know? Check contributions for him between 19:04, 6 December 2006 and 14:38, 6 December 2006... all reverts. Oddly enough, I did actually have an excuse for the page moves which I put on his talk page ], and reverted him again, just to put one final test... And as I am submitting this , same articles. Was it right or wrong for me to test him, you judge, even I get blocked for this, might be slightly extreme, but I won't challege it provided that I have the assurance that upon returning KPbIC will not be stalking me... --] 23:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:At some point ] wrote: ''"You once accused me of Russification, well on one side you are correct"'' . This is the core of the conflict. ] is a Russian user who devotes significant amount of his activity on ] of ] history (as well as the other territories, which were taken by Russian Empire). The user recently moved 4 articles on ] stations from Ukrainian spelling to Russian spelling. A part of the problem is that the metro stations do not really have a well established English name. But it should be noted that the people of Ukraine have chosen to have the only official language (as stated in ]), which is ], not Russian. The Ukrainian independence, laws, and traditions of Ukraine are recognized by the civilized world, which commonly uses the local names in case establish English names are absent.

:Back to ] alleged accusations, I explained to ] that his identity is of absolutely no interest to me. My interest is primary limited to the Ukrainian topics, the topics of my country. If there are drastic Russification attempts, such as ] often used to commit, then it’s my understanding that it should be prevented. Kuban’s attempts are on the edge of vandalism, as basically he’s challenging the integrity of Misplaced Pages.

:The bigger issue is the relation of a majority and a minority. There are more Russian editors than Ukrainians. While ] is postulated as one of the key elements of Misplaced Pages, often it’s difficult to achieve. With respect to the Ukrainian topics, instead of bothering with analyzing references, looking for information sources, some use brutal force to substitute NPOV by Russian POV. The rest of Wikicommunity very often does not care. Frustrated with the situation, many new Ukrainian editors simply leave, which only amplifies the prevalence of Russian POV. In the end, instead of being a source of reliable information, Misplaced Pages may fail into the hands of such majority groups. This is the challenge that Misplaced Pages is facing. --] 03:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Standard argument, that is half full of lies... anyway talking about NPOVs and integrities then I invite anyone to take a look on my contributions for the period that KPbIC was absent October and November... I knew he was gone, so had I wanted to choose to troll and ''russify'' articles, would I not take advantage of not having a stalker? Please if anyone finds anything in my contributions of that time then his argument might stand...however so far there is really is nothing for him to bite into... which immediately discredits every comment about ''russification'' which I must say is an extremely abstarct term, and in some cases is actually offensive if '''all''' my actions (according to him) are Russification. So that means, hypotherically every article I edit that is related to Ukraine is Russification...
:::As for Kharkiv Metro stations, then I agree with Alex Bakharev and actually with the moves... and as explained above it was but a simple provocation, to test whether KPbIC has grown up since his departure in October...I even told him on his talk page that should he raise the issue on ] without first reverting, as a proof to me, then I would support him. One needs not be an expert to deduce that he has not.
:::Just to be clear, if there is a dispute on articles, I, unlike KPbIC prefer not to edit war if the people approach with necessary comments on a talk page... There is a ] which I strive to follow... yet some people, like him do not.
:::Finally, ] clearly states that insulted national conscience (his second argument) is no reason to harass other users by stalking on their edits... and the same goes with the ''integrity and NPOV'' arguments that he brought up... And just for the record, there are plenty of Ukrainian users contributing, yet so far only one seems to be harassing a Russian user by stalking his edits and then doing a big-bully accusation. I wonder why noone of the "Russian majority" is not extending him such a favour...And that is not because only 10% of his other edits are useful, i.e. as opposed to the 90% of them being reverts of mine. --] 18:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Here is a recent example ], a very charged topic, there was a very lengthy discussion on whether or not to include a controversial category. Even KPbIC participated, in the talk page and the dominating consensus was not to include it as genocide. However new users are often oblivious to this and sometimes this POV-pushing takes place . However, per all consensus on talk pages when thousands of people revert this its ok for KPbIC, when I do it , its obviously not .
:::Like I said, I was patient for a long time, but its wearing thin, and frankly at times like these I ask that an admin takes serious action. Not just for the edits over the last two days, but for everything in the past. --] 18:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


::There are two issues here. One is the move war over the names for the ] stations. I think ] and ] are right here. ] and Kuban kazak wrote nice articles about these stations but the name should be based on the rules of Ukrainian language not on a strange Russian/Ukrainian mix. I have moveprotected the articles in the Ukrainian version. If Kazak or somebody else wants to move them back he can file ] but I doubt it would succeed.

::The second issue is that I agree that KPbIC (when he is onwiki) appears to stalk Kuban kazak and ]. E.g. I strongly suspect that even in this case he became involved into the move war of Kuban kazak vs Olexandr Kravchuk not because he had the Kharkiv metros stations on his watchlist but because he monitors all Kazak's edits. This is a recurring pattern and in the most cases (unlike the Kharkiv Metro names) it leads only to a petty harassment of Kazak without any benefit to the project. I have my own history of conflicts with KPbIC, so I might be biased in my assessment of the situation but I ask an uninvolved admin to look into the stalking allegations. ] 06:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The issues here have to be separated. As far as moves where concerned, those where indeed not "unexplained" as KK claimed when reverting them, but simply "unproposed". Unproposed, at least informally at talk, moves are generally a bad idea, but should not be automatically reverted. Those moves were sensible. As the articles are now at those sensible locations, the issue is moot.

The core of KK's complaint is that KPbIC habitually stalks his edits and reverts, picks fights and edit wars in various articles. I can ascertain that this is true. The editor indeed stalks KK (and myself) and while I find being stalked amusing and even thrilling to be that editor's obsession, I can see that Kazak has no obligation to take the stalker with a similar humor and can be, as such, annoyed by him. Stalking is really an issue here. KPbIC' response is basically off-topic. He has grievances about Misplaced Pages's systemic bias, he has his eternal grievances against "the Russians" in general, he invokes some unrelated issues in Ukrainian politics, etc. This all does not belong to WP:ANI.

Kuban kazak complains that he is being stalked for many months by user:KPbIC. I can certify that this is true. The only issue here is whether the KPbIC' habit in question falls under Harassment ("following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor" , "stalking another editor who is acting in good faith" and "constantly nit-picking in violation of required courtesy") or it is a legitimate activity of correcting the problem editor. In my opinion KK is not a problem editor but a committed contributor (not without the fault like all of us) and KPbIC' activity qualifies as Harassment. I can tell because I am also an object of KPbIC stalking. I simply take it with pity rather than with anger. --] 05:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Removal of Discussion Panel ==

I posted an information on the prices Microsoft Canada posted for Windows Vista. I justed checked it today and found it not there. I went to the History section of Windows Vista and found it remove for it "has nothing to do with the article".I don't think this is a sign of good faith since I'm a new wikipedian. I would like to see action immediately.Thank you. ]
:Very sorry, but good faith doesn't mean that people have to leave your edits in. If they said something like "OMG U R IDIOT", you would have a point. But as it is, it doesn't have anything to do with the article, and removing it isn't assuming you acted in bad faith. -] <small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small> 23:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::Salmans801's edit was on the ] page, though, and a discussion of pricing strategies is certainly relevant to the article. Granted, it could only be included if some sources were found to show that it was worth putting into the actual article. I don't think ] removal was acceptable. Removal of blatantly off-topic posts on the talk pages is fine, but this one wasn't so clearly unrelated. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]o]</small></sup> 00:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:Amarkov, I found the information for the notes of the article and followed it to the source of my information. ]

==Main page==
Can somebody please unlock my main page? It has gone three month... --] 00:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:Are you planning on placing fair use images there again? This appears to be the reason your page was protected in the first place. Repeated requests were made for you to remove them and not replace them, but you didn't seem to want to cooperate. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]o]</small></sup> 01:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::I've unprotected. I'm sure Striver will adhere to our fair use policy -- ] 07:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Sounds good. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]o]</small></sup> 18:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

==]==
On November 8, I ran across the ] article while doing Recent changes patrol. I had never heard of the person, but the article as I saw it at that time was incredibly peacockish. I put a <nowiki>{{pov}}</nowiki> tag on the article and explained my reasoning on the Talk page. ] removed the tag and said on the Talk page, "The article is fine". Well, no, it wasn't fine. I explained to the user that removal of a pov tag without discussing the changes was not acceptable, and put the tag back on, but Walaha removed it again, and I blocked them temporarily and tried to explain that repeated removal of the POV tag was vandalism (all right, I admit, I should have gotten somebody else to do the blocking). So Walaha came in with a series of sock puppets to repeatedly remove the tag. I finally decided that I would stop just slapping the tag on the page, and made some rather extensive edits myself, to cut down on the fannishness, to remove some rather libelous comments, and to add "citation needed" tags on a lot of places in the article. Walaha reverted. Since that time, a large number of sock puppets have come in and repeatedly reverted any and all edits made by '''''anybody''''' to Walaha's preferred version. Each one has been indefinitely blocked. But now it's time to sprotect the page, and it's probably not me who should do it. Would anyone else care to look through the history of the article and let me know if my edits are wrong, and if they agree that the page should be sprotected, by someone other than me? Thank you. ]|] 00:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:After having a quick look through the history, and comparing the versions which are being reverted, I would endorse a semi-protection. Sockpuppets to circumvent Misplaced Pages policy/practice/guidelines, such as ], are covered as reasons to semi-protect/full-protect in the protection policy. '''] <sup>]&nbsp;·&nbsp;]&nbsp;]</sup>''' 01:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::And semi-protected by {{user|Sarah Ewart}}. Cheers for that, Sarah. '''] <sup>]&nbsp;·&nbsp;]&nbsp;]</sup>''' 01:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Thanks, Daniel. Sorry I was a bit slow coming back...I was too busy pondering the article. It's awful! I think maybe it should be chopped back to a short bio stub. Most of it seems to be the opinion of the author and crufty unverifiable rubbish. Seriously, who cares if she liked climbing trees when she was a kid! ''']''' 02:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Thanks, Sarah. ]|] 02:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::Dear all, ] is apparently the latest sockpuppet who has reverted all ]'s edits to ]. The most outrageous thing is, ] is applying for administrator status! Please kindly do something about this; help would be greatly appreciated! ] 16:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::The incomplete application is ]. It hasn't yet been added to the main ] page. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]o]</small></sup> 18:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== More Cplot socks ==

I've just been playing whack-a-mole with some more ]. Several I've indef-blocked after a single edit. I've also semi-protected Tom harrison's ]. Hopefully I haven't over-reached on anything. If someone feels like double checking and reversing any actions which were over zealous I'd be much obliged. Thanks. --] 02:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

: No problem. That's excellent work StuffOfInterest. Keep up the good work. --] 04:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::With above post, is this guy trying to give himself away? That's an honest, not flippant question. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 04:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::: That's what it looks like doesn't it. What sorts of trolling has this troll been up to? How many articles have they vandalized? --] 05:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Based on links to my talk page, I see that Cplot's propaganda piece is still on at least five of his sock's talk pages. Is there any policy regarding deleting talk pages of socks so that they don't serve as a propaganda distribution point? The ones in question right now are:
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
Just trying to sweep up the mess from last night... --] 19:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

=== Range block assistance ===

Due to persistent trolling from a banned sockpuppet, ], on a certain ISP, we need a range block.

I've reinstated two from earlier this week:

* 70.8.0.0/16
* 68.30.0.0/16

But I think the user jumps around more on other ranges on the ISP, since those blocks were not entirely effective. A list of IP addresses used is ]. A whois query shows these net ranges:
* 70.0.0.0 - 70.14.255.255
* 68.24.0.0 - 68.31.255.255

I have tried entering these into the , but not entirely sure what to do with the results and what exactly to block. Blocks need to prevent these IP addresses from creating accounts. The ISP uses dynamic IPs, so the user keeps jumping around to different IP addresses. I have tried contacting the ISP multiple times, but no response yet. Please advise. --] <small>(])</small> 03:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:First one appears to be a 12 bit mask and the second one appears to be a 13 bit mask. I'm hesitant to block that big of range, but this guy is out of control. It just may be needed. It would be nice to get the new ] back. --] 03:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::If the ISP was responding to my multiple queries and working with us, then I would be more lenient. But, I'm still waiting to hear something from them. Maybe the two blocks will at least slow him down. --] <small>(])</small> 03:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Probably editng from multiple locations...work, home, internet cafe.--] 05:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::There's a lot of talk pages out there that appear to be storing their manifesto, including both of the above redlinks... ] <small>]</small> 05:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::Not much can be done about that since it is still obtainable in the article histories. I wish the troll would simply limit his attacks to me and not on others...if he would do that only, it would be an improvement as I am used to having sock armies attack me and have been for almost six months now...what about it Cplot? Care to just pick on me for now on?--] 06:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, Mongo, Mongo. Were you worried we would stop chastising you and you would start to feel lonely? Not a chance. You put that smile back on your face. And yes, we'll limit it to you, Fred Bauder, Tom Harrison, Aude Vivere, Tbeatty, Regebro, NuclearUmpf, StuffOfInterest, Morton Devonshire, and a few others. But no one else. How about that? --] 15:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
: I'm going to take that as an admission. Mole whacked. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== British Library References ==

Something weird is happening at the ] article. I spotted a spelling error and went to correct the section but instead found that I was editing the lead section. The "References" section seems to be somehow in the wrong place, and I'm not sure how to fix it. However I am sure that someone here knows what's up. --] 03:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:Yeah, you're right, the References is appearing in the wrong spot, though it's in the right spot in the edit screen. ]|] 03:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::I've fixed the problem. It was broken , someone forgot to close a <nowiki><ref></nowiki> tag. --]&nbsp;(]) 07:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== My userboxes ==

] came across my userpage as a result of his unhealthy attention with my ] and he has been going out of his way to try to piss me off in order to find a reason to block me. This has to stop. First he attacked , which has been uploaded on wikipedia for years, and wasn't even uploaded by me, then once he failed to create any drama with that, he moved on to my userpage, citing that my userboxes were 'offensive' and continously removing them, again provoking me to find a reason to block. Suggestions? --] 04:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:I have one - {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{1|}}}|With regards to your comments on ]:&#32;}}Please see Misplaced Pages's ] policy. Comment on ''content'', not on contributors; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to ] for disruption. Please ] and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. <!-- Template:No personal attacks (npa2) --> ]|] 04:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:See ]. If others find your userboxes offensive and ask you to remove them, you should do so. User page content is only permitted with the consent of the community. --] <small>(])</small> 04:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:thx for the input --] 05:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Request to Delete One Sentence of possible Libelous material ==

Hello,

During the about an entry about me, user timecop linked to a resume of mine that ended in 2000. While linking to it he wrote:

"Self-proclaimed 'blogfather', never held a job for more than a year and never achieved anything except a passing reference for some of his blog-related activities."

Two lies are contained in that sentence. The possible libelous one is the one that says I had never held a job for more than a year. Ironically the resume proves how untrue that statement is. After asking someone to remove the sentence, they only removed the resume. Unfortunately because Digg had this AfD on their front page, tons of people have come to the discussion, some of whom might want to hire me in the future, thus I cannot have such a statement remain which was written for the sole purpose of defaming me.

I wrote on and which ended with him telling me not to talk to him any longer. Never did he say that my resume proved that he was correct. Thus he knows he's lying.

I wrote to try to get this resolved to no avail.

And I just had with an Admin who led me here

Please delete that one sentence (that had nothing to do with the discussion since the resume ended at 2000 and I hadn't started blogging until 2001) since it's untrue. Likewise I have never claimed to be the Blog Father. - Tony Pierce ] 05:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:Normally I would have removed that sentence for you, but Timecop seems to think I am out to get him, and I do not wish to excacerbate the situation with him. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 05:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::Hi Tony. I hope you are satisfied to my delete comment. --] 05:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not in the slightest bit satisfied. I asked for a deletion of the sentence, not a strikethru which anyone can see, and indeed attracts more attention to it. If you seem to think that you have information to lead to believe that I haven't held a job for more than a year please provide it now or delete the entire sentence. I have played games with you long enough. Feel free to add Alexa rankings instead of more accurate Technorati rankings all you want - write a whole book if you wish - but if you insist on keeping the lie out there that I cannot hold a job, you will be notified.

One more thing, because I do like to play fair. You try to prove that I'm a non-notable blogger because I "beg" for money, and you linked to an old experiment that I had where I asked people to give me one or two dollars. Well enough people gave me money and I bought a car with that money, and I currently drive that car, infact I just drove it around the country. I've also "begged" for two iPods and gotten them, as well as "begged" for a trip to Aruba and got it. Of your list of nn bloggers how many have simply asked their readers for things and gotten them? I may not have the most traffic of other bloggers, but that was never my goal. It is with the professional job that I have now at LAist where I have tripled the amount of traffic than what it had last year, but whatever. continue your silly war.

But please delete the sentence that contains the libel. You are capable of deleting, so delete it. It doesn't belong there, it isn't true. You know it isn't true. If anyone asks where it went (fat chance) and you want to be honest tell them "it was a lie, I was wrong, and I took it down." - Tony Pierce 06:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::You do realize that anyone can see ANY page revision by simply clicking on the 'history' link at the top of the page? Deleting a line of text does about as good as striking it out as anyone can go back and review it anyway. And re: begging for money, I imagine most people have more dignity than that. --] 06:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I do realize that anyone could go into the page revision history and try to weed through the mess that is that page. I can live with that, I cannot live with the strikethrough. What is this now, the fifth time that I have asked you now to DELETE it? Please delete it. If someone wants to go through the history of your lie thats cool with me. What isn't cool with me is a strikethrough that draws more attention to your lie than how it was before. PS good luck flying to Aruba on Dignity while listening to an "from the readers of the busblog". Delete the stupid lie and quit begging for so much attention. The next request will be from someone else and, as I stated in your Talk Page, it will probably result the end of your run here on Misplaced Pages. - Tony Pierce ] 07:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:OK, I've removed the comments. Now, could you please stop threatening us? ]<sup>]|]</sup> 09:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I thanked you below Patstuart and I will thank you again here. Thank you. - TP ] 10:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:You're welcome. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 10:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Delete it all, professional <strike>bloggers</strike>beggers are not notable content, no matter how much internet drama they bring.--] 11:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Occasional vandal ==

Wandering around this evening, I came across and fixed vandalism by IP address ]. This IP address has made only five edits, all vandalism, and received one warning in the past. I'd have posted this on the obvious-vandals page, but this vandalism hasn't been so frequent as to fit that page's criteria.<br>Thanks! ] 05:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:That is pretty normal to see. WHOIS says the ip belongs to Carney-Nadeau Public Schools, so I tagged it as such. ] 05:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


== ] ==

I've been trying to contribute to the ] article but I'm having to fight off the vandalism. Is this article worthy of ]? If so, please help.

<b><font color="#000019">]</font><font color ="#336699">]</font ></b> 06:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:Sure, semi-protected. Hope it helps -- ] 07:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::Much appreciated. <b><font color="#000019">]</font><font color ="#336699">]</font ></b> 14:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


==Xizes==
. ] 06:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
*I blocked him for a week, if he continues after the block expires, he may be blocked longer or indefinitely. --''']]''' 07:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
**is there any sort of limit on subpages of userpages? He has a whole lot of superflous user subpages.--] 07:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Just ] those that don't belong. &ndash; ]] 07:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::What's the criteria for ''that'', as it applies to user subpages?--] 08:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::Mostly ] but if he gets permablocked then it's grounds enough to prod all the userpages. ] 08:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

==] trolling RfC==
{{user3|Goodlief}} registered and somehow has found his way to the RfC page wherein he has commented on a number of user conduct RfC's, sometimes with inflammatory comments. He's placed comments in the wrong section of RfC's and is reverting changes I make as a result. I view his behaviour as trolling, but would like someone uninvolved to look into it -- ] 07:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:Looks like trolling to me. I just gave him a warning.--] 07:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:He's continuing to do so. I'm blocking him for 48 hours, but as I initiated one of the RfC's in question, I leave this up for review here -- ] 07:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::He's been leaving comments at numerous Rfc's and he just registered today. A 48 hour block is more than acceptable.--] 07:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Can someone fix his unilateral copy-and-paste move of Humor (his first edit)? '''] <sup>]&nbsp;·&nbsp;]&nbsp;]</sup>''' 07:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Done -- ] 07:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::Hmm... sounds like we need to block him indefinitely and impose his leaving the project.—] (]) 19:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

===Indef block?===
Judging by his first <100 contribs, this guy is acting a way which perfectly defines "troll". His/her first edit(s) were to unilaterally copy-and-paste move ] to ] - this debate, whilst only settled recently, was one of the most bitter I've ever read. His/her next action was to disrupt RfC - how on earth does a "newbie" find RfC so quickly, and understand how it works? Not only that, but a number of his/her comments were extremely disruptive and inflammatory, and he/she also (deliberately) removed other peoples' comments, admitting he/she'd never read the RfC anyways. Finally, to cap it all off, some more trolling at ]. I'll leave it open to you guys, but I know what I'd do. Throw in the above comment quoted by Ryu, and it looks an open-and-shut case. '''] <sup>]&nbsp;·&nbsp;]&nbsp;]</sup>''' 22:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Legal threats ==

At 3:54 this morning, HighInBC gave a final warning to ] to stop making legal threats. A few hours later, the user made another threat ]. Since it looks like HighInBC has gone to the land of nod, would someone care to block the account in question? Thanks. ] 09:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:I've removed the comments, getting these shananigans over with. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 09:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::Claiming that something is libel or is libelous does not constitute a legal threat. While I can't say this user is polite, according to ], ''Making a polite, coherent complaint in cases of copyright infringement or attacks against you is not a "legal threat" Similarly, slander, libel, and defamation of character are not tolerated on Misplaced Pages.'' It is imperative that someone check to see that this user has not been warned unnecessarily. --] <b> μολὼν λαβέ</b> 09:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:The warning was for "through a piece-of-cake lawsuit". After this warning he said "The next request will be from someone else", which IMHO is rather explicit. ] 09:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::Well, you linked to comments that aren't legal threats, per my aforementioned explaination, and then you called for a block. --] <b> μολὼν λαβέ</b> 10:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Patstuart, I appreciate what you did. If that had been done a day ago when I originally pointed it out to Admins, I would never have had to contact an attorney and then followed her advice of notifying timecop that we were prepared to respond in a legal manner to his illegal behavior. My hope is that this will be the last note that I will be forced to leave on any page in Misplaced Pages. The debate of my entry was interesting, being libeled against was truly distressing. I hope that Misplaced Pages spends just as much energy taking care of users who actually break the law as they do upon new users/visitors who follow the instructions of their attorney during a very serious matter. TP ] 09:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::"A very serious matter"? Some troll making fun of an unknown blogger? ] 10:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, the legal action would have been against the one who posted the allegedly false resume on the internet, since all Timecop did was report what he had read. ] 10:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:The resume is posted on , d'oh. Originally the link came from archive.org, but it has always been on his site. --] 10:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::I can't help but agree. --] <b> μολὼν λαβέ</b> 10:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:Since when did we concern ourselves with people's internet fame? Even Tony's "thank you" reads like a legal threat. I'm tempted to restore Timecop's comments, simply because of how absurd this complaint is. (of course I would not actually do that.. I'm just saying..) Potential employers looking at a Misplaced Pages AfD... give me a break. -- ] 10:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::People say stupid things and act irrationally when they get upset. Tony is upset that his article is going, and at that from someone who's a ] who's goal is the "war on blogs". This statement isn't, BTW, a backhanded attack on timecop; it's an explanation of Tony. Personally, while he's been a little silly about the resume, I understand why he's upset (even if he might not deserve an article). ]<sup>]|]</sup> 15:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] ==

Following his latest 3RR violation, I have extend ]'s block to indefinite. This was his '''12th''' block for 3RR, not counting extensions for sockpuppetry (and two for incivility) . Almost ''all'' of his recent edits (I'm speaking literally here, have a look at ) are edit warring, reverts and other disruptive edits. He has had ample warnings over many months, and shown no sign of stopping despite many, many blocks. It seems that he's simply a disruptive user carrying on this external conflict from some other internet forum to Misplaced Pages, and he should not be welcome here. I think he should be considered banned by the community for exhausting our patience. This action is up for review. ]·] 11:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
: Endorse block. Another good catch by Dmc. --] 11:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

If banning is endorsed, the following may require deletion: ], ], ], ], ] and ]. ] 12:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:Thank you.] 14:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== ]-related sockpuppetry ==

I stumbled across this (really, I was running a check on a completely different user, so it was an odd occurence) case of major sockpuppetry related to the ongoing edit war at ]. I can say with a high level of certainty based on the IP evidence that {{user|Pkulkarni}}, {{user|Shrilankabuddhist}}, {{user|Buddhistindian}}, {{user|Ambedkaritebuddhist}}, {{user|Dhammafriend}}, {{user|HKelkar2}}, {{user|Iqbal123}}, {{user|Bhangi brahmin}}, and {{user|Kelkar123}} are one person. Note the two impostor accounts. This is potentially a workplace IP, so meatpuppetry is a possibility, but based on the nature of the editing, it looks like a single person to me (scrutiny welcome). ]·] 11:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
: This user has been the cause of a lot of edit-wars. I have indef-blocked all the socks/attack users, and also blocked Pkularni for a month as this is a first time offence. I have also made a post at the Indian noticeboard as there were some discussions about the article in question there. - ] (]) 11:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::Note that this was previously reported fir checkuser as ] (but declined). ] 12:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:Great. I was thought of filing a Checkuser for {{user|Shrilankabuddhist}}, and {{user|Dhammafriend}}. ] | ] 12:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::Also Dmcdevit helped me nab ] and his neo-Buddhist socks. THey are related to this case as well.<b>]]</b> 06:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== reversion of warnings ==

sometime recently {{user|MacRusgail}} deleted these warnings about incivility
i'd put there for & respectively. i believe these are supposed to be either left there or be archived? wasn't quite sure where to report, wld apreciate clarification if this is wrong place thx&nbsp;<span style="background-color: #000000">&nbsp;<font color="white">'''&rArr;'''</font> <font color="white">]</font>&nbsp;</span> 13:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:Actually, it is at the editor's discretion whether to keep, remove, or archive these. ] is inactive at this time. ] 13:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== User:Firemaker117 ==

I found {{vandal|Firemaker117}} today after an edit to ]. The userpage says that he's doing unproductive edits as an "experiment". Block candidate? ] <small><font color="black">]</font></small> 13:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:Yup. --] 14:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Instruction creep ==

{{User|Badlydrawnjeff}} and {{User|Steve Hart}} have apparently gotten the impression that legalistic and bureaucratic guidelines are a good idea, and that our ] ] should be deprecated. I'm not sure what Steve's reasoning is, but Jeff's appears to be his dissent with the current wording or procedures at ], although he has declined to point out specifics. Anyway could I get some comments on the issue of whether or not we should keep avoiding instruction creep? (]) 14:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:Way to completely misrepresent my argument. At no point did I say "legalistic and bureaucratic guidelines are a good idea," I've merely said that the way we handle our guidelines and procedures are "instruction creepy," and that your tagging of ] as a guideline is premature, lacks general consensus, and hasn't been approached properly. I do not know what this has to do with AN/I, honestly, but if you're going to draw attention to my claims, have the common courtesy to be accurate about it. --] <small>]</small> 14:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::Way to completely misrepresent my actions. It's not "premature", it was ''three months ago'' and despite this page being heavily linked and in use, there have been no objections ''at all'' in that time. (]) 14:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Thus my complaint. You haven't had any objections because no one knew about it becoming a guideline with minimal discussion. Now that people are noticing it, they're coming out in opposition. That tends to happen. Considering WP:CREEP is linked to and the actual page , your claim of it being "heavily linked" also lacks merit. It especially lacks links to the various pumps, which is telling. The meta page may be linked a lot, but that doesn't make it guideline here without discussion. --] <small>]</small> 14:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:We should keep avoiding instruction creep. ] 14:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::Indeed we should. And we do. But I'm looking at the talk page of WP:CREEP and seeing very little discussion and '''NO''' consensus anywhere to make this a guideline. It doesn't matter if Radiant did this 3 months ago, he did it with almost no input from the community. This is the kind of unilateral behaviour that makes me worry were he elected to arbcom. ] | ] 14:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::However, see the second section on its talk page, ''"Wikipedians who have used "instruction creep""''. It shows usage by 36 users - hardly a lack of input. (]) 15:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Yes, they have used it. And possibly did while it was '''still''' an essay. But no actually gave input, your claim that use is input on the question of changing this from an essay to a guideline is illogical. Additionally, You are missing that fact that I stated there was no input into the '''change''' from essay to guideline, I didn't say no one ever used it. Its the changing of the status with no input that is the issue here. (Not to mention 36 people is a trivial amount on Misplaced Pages. I'm quite sure our other guidelines have thousands of instances of use. More people believe in the flying spaghetti monster than 36.) A change like this without input or in case without even '''an attempt''' to get input deserves to be questioned as inappropriate. ] | ] 15:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I've just read ] and I agree with most of what it says. The bit I disagree with is the last paragraph:
:''"Page instructions should be pruned regularly. Gratuitous requirements should be removed as soon as they are added. All new policies should be regarded as instruction creep until firmly proven otherwise."''
This is a classic case of over-generalisation, and may indeed be an example of instruction creep itself. Page instructions should be pruned ''when needed'', not regularly. Not all new policies should be regarded as instruction creep. It should be easy to identify whether a new policy is instruction creep or not, without assuming it is guilty. It is much easier, and less derogatory, to consider whether a new policy is identical to, or an extension of, an existing guideline or policy, and then subsume the new policy under the old one by merging or redirecting. Slapping the derogatory label "instruction creep" on something is the wrong approach because, as the page says, the efforts are often "well-meaning".

More generally though, it is important to realise that the opposite process can happen. Just as instructions can get so bloated that they are useless, they can also be so excessively pruned that they are equally useless, something I've termed "anti-instruction creep creep" in the past. Maybe ] is needed?

The essence of the argument is that some people want detailed instructions, and some want brief, bullet-pointed nutshells that help them remember things. It should be obvious that the new editor will want something short and clear, the inexperienced editor will want more detailed explanations and instructions, and the experienced editor will want a brief summary with their own annotations added to make it as clear as possible to them. The trouble comes when people start adding what should be their own personal notes (which could be added to an 'examples' page) to the main document, lead to bloat and instruction creep.

It is also extremely important to distinguish between instruction creep and genuinely useful additions to a guideline. Sometimes a logical step is missing from a guideline or set of instructions, and adding it is simply filling in a gap and is not instruction creep. Also, it is invariably the case that someone expanding an instruction either finds it useful, or thinks someone else will find it useful. If you don't find it useful, ask yourself "can I put this somewhere else instead of just deleting it?" and "how can I make sure those reading the main guideline know how to find these extra instructions if they want them?" ] 15:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
*Hm, considering that we actually don't regularly prune page instructions, I'd say we remove that phrase. (]) 15:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:PS. I've also commented, ''with examples'' <gasp>, at <s>]</s> ] (gah! why didn't that talk page get redirected...), in case those here haven't bothered to go there yet. ] 15:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::Concur with Carcharoth's post overall, w/gratitude (can't type much today, you saved me trouble/pain.) Creep bad; essay 2 guideline w/o community support = creep; what ]?! makes me think bad joke but not joke in this context, eh? ]<sup>]</sup> 15:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

One handy way to avoid instruction creep is to never bother reading the rules in the first place. I haven't. --] 19:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:LOL! A worthy response. But surely you want other people to read the rules? :-) ] 23:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

How is this relevant to ANI? AN maybe, but where's the Incident? ] 06:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Complaint against admin ==

I would like to see the removal of ] as an admin. He has attacked me and another user in bad faith and generally violated every requirement of ]. How can I start a procedure against him? ] 15:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:Can you provide some diffs to back up your statement? That would definately help. Also, have you tried working it out with the user in question on their talk page? - ]</small> (]) 15:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::*Thanks for your reply. At this point, there is nothing to work out. This admin has attacked me and another user first for being sockpuppets and then for being anti-American. He did this with no basis for either charge. He has admitted wrong-doing for the sockpuppet charge, and I am waiting for his reaction on the anti-American charge. It is precisely because of his actions that he does not deserve to be an admin. You can see all of this by starting here: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:JoshuaZ#Patto1ro and then reading the three subjects following. ] 15:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::At any point has he used his or her administrative privileges against you? Ie, blocks, page protects, etc? - ]</small> (]) 15:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::* Sorry one of my edits was lost. He has not used it, but has threatened to: "You are undoubtedly the same person as User:Mikebe. Since you have voted in AfDs with both accounts, you are violating WP:SOCK. I will kindly ask you to choose one account to edit with. Further use of both accounts may result in '''me having to take administrative action against you. And we don't want that'''. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 20:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)" ] 15:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


:If you think an admin is acting improperly, but has not used admin powers to do so, then act as though it was a regular editor. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 15:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::*What about threats (see above)? Can a regular editor do that? ] 15:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::In most cases, we treat behaviour ''as a user'' and behaviour ''as an admin'' separately. I don't see any evidence that ] has made any use of his admin tools in any disagreement with either you or ], who appears to be the other user you mention. It is very unlikely indeed that an admin would lose admin privileges without abusing them, unless their behaviour as a user is bad enough to earn them a ban from the site.

:::As to conduct as a user, from what I've seen, there has been an element of poor behaviour from all sides including your own. Osgoodelawyer should not have accused you and Patto1ro of sockpuppetry without more convincing proof than I've seen; I personally strongly doubt you two are the same person. I would caution Osgoodelawyer against making sockpuppetry allegations so freely in future.

:::You have also been uncivil. You have nominated articles for deletion based solely on disliking their current content, without regard for deletion guidelines. You have aggressively put forth the notion that an American editor should not be editing articles on European beers and that your opinions should automatically carry more weight since you are European. Rather than attempting to resolve differences with other editors, you have inflamed them.

:::I would suggest that if you feel your disagreement with Osgoodelawyer is insoluble between the two of you, you ask for mediation. Be aware that a willingness to compromise and assume good faith in others is essential to successful contribution to Misplaced Pages. Beware of asking for further steps in dispute resolution, because in such steps, the conduct of all parties will be examined, including your own. ] (]:]) 15:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Bravo, Morven. Very good characterization of the situation. ]<sup>]|]</sup> 15:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::::*I will make no claim to being perfect, but I can assure you that the articles I nominated for deletion were based on Misplaced Pages rules and not on my personal tastes -- I didn't even know that was possible! I have only been here for a few months and I'm still learning my way around. What I am trying to do is clearly not popular, but I have not threatened anyone nor have I ever acted in bad faith. ] 16:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Please try to assume that everyone concerned is trying to improve the project. It's clear to me that both yourself and Osgoodelawyer are trying to improve the beer articles - can you see that? I hope so. You are just disagreeing as to what best to do to improve them.

:::::Thus, try and find compromise positions, and respect ]. You assert that ] is not a classification in use in Belgium, nor does it correspond to any Belgian classification. If that's correct, it certainly should be noted. However, if anyone else in the world DOES use it as a classification - and it appears that at least one brewing organisation in the US does - then what purpose is served by deleting it? Better that the article exist - since it is a term in use - but explicitly state who uses the classification and who does not. Belgian classification of their own beers is certainly very important, and it makes a lot of sense for the Belgian descriptions to be paramount, but this does not mean that nobody else in the world is entitled to describe and classify Belgian or Belgian-style beers.

:::::Please consider this and try and reach compromise decisions based on respect for the facts and on existing points of view, and try and characterize them fairly. ] (]:]) 16:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I agree that the ] could be treated like ], namely explaining that it is not common in the country which bears the same name, but rather in __insert_region_here__, and explain the purpose of its naming. I would have to agree that it's inappropriate to delete that article simply because it isn't used in the country it purports to be from. The same would apply for ]. On a different topic, I think it's very poor form to accuse someone of being "anti-American", as such a position in and of itself is not wholy inappropriate, or wrong. Yes, they should treat things neutrally in the articles, but using an anti-American bias as a position for editing articles is not inappropriate, and is not wrong. --] 16:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::A good suggestion. And yes - while accusations of being anti-American may well be correct, in my experience they are rarely helpful and serve only to inflame the situation (as do most accusations of being anti-whatever). They should be thus avoided. I have not examined all the contributions of the users involved in this dispute to see who (if anyone) made any such allegations, but it's not in the best interests of the project to do so. ] (]:]) 16:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::*First thank you for all the helpful information that was posted here. There seems to be a misunderstanding about Belgian Strong Dark Ale: it is '''solely''' a classification for home-brewing competitions. That is, amateur brewers attempt to brew a certain recipe and then are marked on how close they come. This has nothing to do with commercial products. I know that it lists two commercial beers, but, if I call your child "Beatrix" does that change your child's name?
:::::::*And for what it is worth: Osgoodelawyer has now apologised for calling our work "blatantly anti-American".
] 16:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::Oh, and thank you for pointing out ] and educating me on something today - I never knew the provenance of that recipe before. ] (]:]) 16:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow. I apologized to Mikebe, he accepted it, and then his very next edit was to immediately file this complaint asking for my admin privileges to be revoked. That's not really what I'd consider an acceptance. I have apologized for accusing Patto1ro of sockpuppetry without enough evidence to go to a checkuser, although ''at the time'' the resemblance between the two users in question and the circumstantial evidence ''was'' pointing towards it. Clearly it was imprudent, and I have obviously learned from it. I have also since (prior to noticing this complaint), retracted my accusation of "Anti-Americanism" (albeit someone facetiously). I should note, though, that never did I complain that "Anti-Americanism" was grounds for action (nor do I think I even really accused Mikebe of being "an Anti-American"). In fact, the term "Anti-American" was simply being used to characterize ''edits'' made by both Mikebe and Patto1ro as being ''similar'' in a certain respect (that is, evidence to bring to a checkuser), when I was asked by another admin what I thought was the evidence for sockpuppetry. While I probably shouldn't have accused Patto1ro of sockpuppetry at the time I did, I certainly do not think it was an "abuse" of admin privileges. As noted above by others, this is really a content dispute that has gotten somewhat personal. As such, any further discussion from me will take place off AN/I. <sub>└</sub>&nbsp;<sup>''']'''</sup>&nbsp;/&nbsp;<sub>''<font color="black">]</font>''</sub>&nbsp;<sup>┐</sup> 17:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Mattisse redux ==

I'm sure many of you are familiar with the interesting history of {{vandal|Mattisse}}, who has been criticized for mass tagging sprees, not the least of which is connected to a great number of articles created by {{user|Rosencomet}} and involving the ]. Mattisse has been subject to many checkuser cases, some of which are documented , which resulted in a block, , and , which resulted in a longer block (1 week) for inappropriate uses of sockpuppets.

Well, an ] and a ] are still ongoing regarding Rosencomet and the ] articles. It was recently brought to my attention that Mattisse another user involved in the disputes, complaining about an article that one of Mattisse's own confirmed socks created, apparently as a device to discredit other parties in the mediation and create an impression of impropriety. I feel this action warrants a longer block. Thoughts? --<font color="3300FF">] </font> 16:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:Hi, I'm advocating for Matisse, my only comment is that Matisse was asking ] what should be done with the article and wasn't really complaining, just asking for advice. As it happens, I've prodded the article. ] 18:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::However, Matisse should learn that 'It wasn't me, it was my granddaughter' only works as a sockpuppetry excuse once and is a poor one the first time. I hope she has learned better sense. ] (]:]) 20:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Nope, same excuse given . &mdash;] 21:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Dangerous Frenchie ==

Normally I'd take this to AIV, but he's not really been warned in the last week with the full range of templates, and he's written some of it in French. I think is so far enough over the line you'd need a telescope. For those of you who don't speak French, he claims to have and use numerous socks, says the other user is a dirty facist faggot (huh?) and he will bugger him, asks the other user if he wants to meet up for a fight, and gives the other user's IP address as proof that he can track him down. This was after having been warned fairly politely by two other editors to stop making personal attacks. ] 16:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:D'accord, j'ai fait un block de longtemps sur cet utilisateur. Feel free to correct my French, or my block, but I blocked him for three weeks due to extreme incivility and personal attacks. ]]]<small>]</small> 17:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:I thought ']' was a derogatory term? Why is it being used in the title above? (OK, the WP article is now about the western, but how about the ? ] 17:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::Knowing a bit about French culture I'd say that the term "Frenchie" is moreso viewed as a ] ref to ] and not so much ''derogatory''. ''(]])'' 17:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Block of ] ==

By ]. While I do not dispute - others may - that is inappropriate, my understanding is that blocks are supposed to preventative, not punitive. The blocked user does not have a history of repeated similar behaviour and in my opinion a few harsh words would have been adequate to prevent reoccurence of such behaviour, or even deleting the page in question. A block was not required, and is in violation of the blocking policy.

I strongly request unblock for Elaragirl. ] 18:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:I agree, this doesn't really seem to be in the spirit of the blocking policy. Perhaps I am misinterpreting it. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]_''']'''</span> 18:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:While I'm perhaps flattered to be considered a "Good" admin, this kind of thing is unacceptable and it isn't an isolated instance of incivility. On the balance of things a 24 hour wikibreak is no hardship. I don't know that I would have made the block, but I won't overturn it. ] ] 18:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::I don't disagree, but I think that a warning (from an uninvolved party) would have sufficed, that's all. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]_''']'''</span> 18:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::Was she even warned to begin with, though? Also, it seems like she's getting it from some other areas, . --] <small>]</small> 19:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Given exchange - which got pretty much laughed out of the house - I would also question the absolute appropriateness of Firsfron making this block. ] 19:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Hardly. He's not in a dispute with her. I see no problem with an admin who previously warned someone over something blocking for same. ] ] 19:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::As one of the people involved in the subsequent discussion thread on Firsfron's comment above, I have to say that I see no impropriety in this block as it may or may not relate to the comment. Plus, while my comments in that discussion thread might be seen in favor of "laughing out of the house", I would not characterize my position on Firsfron's comments in that way. —]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 21:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I think it's fair to say the matter has come up (see for a suggestive example). ] ] 19:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::I'm not ''entirely'' sure that the block on Elaragirl would not serve as a preventative measure, but I do think it is perhaps overkill (even though it's a mere 24 hours). While I have been bothered by the extremely acerbic nature of much of Elaragirl's commentary, she does generally keep it just this side of personal attacks and incivility (and I have to admit that often she puts people in their place). This edit was ''clearly'' over the line, though, and if such comments were made by some Joe Schmoe with fifty edits, I don't think anyone would have batted an eye. It's only because Elaragirl is so clearly visible on places like WP:AN (and has her fans), has, I think, there been a real issue with this block. But then, I might argue that being so visible causes the situation to actually ''be'' different than if it were a block of just some wanker. In closing (this comment sure ended up being a lot longer than I intended), I'm a wimp, so I'm not going to intervene. <sub>└</sub>&nbsp;<sup>''']'''</sup>&nbsp;/&nbsp;<sub>''<font color="black">]</font>''</sub>&nbsp;<sup>┐</sup> 19:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::How many times must a user be warned? This user was warned ''repeatedly'' by multiple users to refrain from making personal atttacks. See her talk page. This block is not in violation of the blocking policy, and as Mackensen says, it isn't an isolated instance of incivility. <font color="#0000FF">]</font> 19:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::I completely disagree with the section in the admin criteria, and while I defend Elara's right to be sarcastic, I am frequently concerned by her comments, and how they affect both her and the person they are directed towards. However, given that there is an ] regarding her behaviour, I'm not convinced as to whether a block was necessary. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]_''']'''</span> 19:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:While I hate to do it, I believe Elaragirl may have stepped over the line this time. As Firsfron indicated, she has been warned to be careful in the past. This 24-hour block amounts to little more than a slap on the wrist, and I don't believe Firsforn overstepped any bounds by imposing it. While I enjoy Elaragirl's enthusiasm and wit, I do think that there are limits. ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]o]</small></sup> 19:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

As flattering as it is to be called an "excellent administrator", other parts of are clearly unacceptable, and I wouldn't support any overturning of admin actions that have already been undertaken in this case. --] 19:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:And I think that type of strong unwavering comment (exactly the opposite of mine!) is exactly why Elaragirl thinks you're an excellent admin (hope that doesn't mean I'm a crap one). <sub>└</sub>&nbsp;<sup>''']'''</sup>&nbsp;/&nbsp;<sub>''<font color="black">]</font>''</sub>&nbsp;<sup>┐</sup> 19:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:I'll echo what Cyde said. 24 hours is more than I'd've given, but not too much for an obviously unacceptable edit that I'd actually object to it. A mere warning would strike me as slightly ridiculous; I'm sure Elaragirl knows already that given her general demeanour she needs to be careful about crossing the line. Her general attitude I have no problem with, just with isolated mistakes like this. --]<sup>]</sup> 19:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::Elaragirl herself has said she won't contest the block, and from what (relatively little) I've gathered about her personality, I think it's because she knows that she's broken her own rules and is ready to take her lumps. This whole thing is pretty much moot. <sub>└</sub>&nbsp;<sup>''']'''</sup>&nbsp;/&nbsp;<sub>''<font color="black">]</font>''</sub>&nbsp;<sup>┐</sup> 19:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Fair enough, thanks for the input, guys. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]_''']'''</span> 19:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

That edit was over the line. I wouldn't unblock. --] <small>]</small> 20:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate Elaragirl's style and I think people frequently overreact and incorrectly label her wit, sarcasm and bluntness as ] violations. I also have some reservations on whether blocking was the best option at this point for the edit in question. However, I can't argue for overturning this block, at this time, for that edit. —]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 20:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:I agree that Elaragirl often uses sarcasm, wit, and bluntness to good effect. I don't see how edits like or others can be mistaken for anything other than personal attacks. Thanks, though, everyone for the review. I think reviewing such blocks is important. <font color="#0000FF">]</font> 21:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::I have no great opinion on this but I would like to comment that I found there doesn't seem to be any process for a user to appeal a block on a third party. So I wrote my own template, ]. Feel free to use if you so wish. ]. &#147;] ] ]&#148;. 22:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Sigh. Elaragirl definitely overstepped the bounds here. She hasn't been on Misplaced Pages long enough to know enough about these admins and such, and I think she just based her opinions on that of other Wikipedians. Whatever, I think the block was justified. ''']]''' 22:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Elaragirl has been very helpful towards me. --]<sup>]</sup> 23:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::...but the 24h block got nothing to do w/ your experience. Nothing wrong w/ having a list of "excellent" and "bad" admins but i'd not call anybody ''stupid''. I dislike me being warned about something i could avoid, let alone being blocked 'cause of that afterwards. We have to be consistent and prove to we got no ''cabal'' in here. -- '']'' ] <small>]</small> 12:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

==sight==
Can somebody --] 19:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
*It looks like he's been warned to behave himself (]). ] ] 19:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I noted this because it speaks very much to the behavior of a group of POV pushers on that article. ] 20:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
*It's one thing to note POV edits or collusion. It is another thing entirely to engage in a ] against an editor (as you did by insinuating he is part of ]) because you have a content or behavior dispute with them. I'd suggest ] takes it to ] if ] does it again.--] 20:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
**I did not insinuate he is part of Al Qaeda, but he is certainly very sympathetic to terrorist viewpoint and propaganda, and he is trying to make a page in Misplaced Pages into a terrorist propaganda page. This is POV pushing of the worst sort. ] 21:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I took it upon myself to put the warning template on ] talkpage, as I am one in the discussion that has disagreed with Striver a fair deal. I did so because I was hoping he would accept it from me more than he would from one of Striver's supporters. Civility is key.--] 21:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
]. That one is new to me. Ill use that in the future. Thanks. --] 03:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== 198.144.206.230 - Multiple Vandalisms ==

Multiple vandalisms in the past hour. Final has been issued. ] 20:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:Please report obvious vandalism to ] once the user has vandalised despite a final warning, and sign and subst user warning templates. --]<sup>]</sup> 20:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Impersonator? Not sure ==

While checking the history of an article in DYK, I noticed the page had been moved by a ]. The guy's been around since late September, and seems to be ] to new titles, some sensibly and others not so sensibly. I'm a bit leery of taking any action myself given the obvious conflict of interest, but I can see the similarity causing some confusion down the line. Someone else care to weigh in on it? (for the record, I've had this username for a year and a half now, and was promoted to admin status a few months after the creation of Geejo's account) ] <sup>]</sup>⁄<sub>]</sub> <small>&bull;&nbsp;20:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)</small>
:Indef blocked as a violation of ] + up-to-no-good account. | ] <small>]</small> 03:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] ==

As per ], please indefinitely block this ]. There is a clear cut consensus. --<small>] ]</small> 00:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:I am waiting... whats keeping you? --<small>] ]</small> 00:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::Come on guys, why the hesitation? He is asking for it... --<small>] ]</small> 00:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Stop trying to bait us. It's not big, it's not funny and it's not clever. --]<sup>]</sup> 00:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::I was actually requesting it formally. But very well. ] --<small>] ]</small> 01:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I have indef blocked Cool Cat since he asked for it specifrically. I don't really know what this dispute is about, so if he's being sarcastic I am not really sure what effect he's going for, but when you ask to be indef blocked you should realize it just might happen. If he'd like to explain why he said something he didn't mean, I'm listening. --] 01:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:I'm not sure that's justified purely by the user requesting it. This request smacks of trying to make a ]. --]<sup>]</sup> 01:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::Yes, we don't usually do requested blocks. Cool Cat was probably just letting off steam, and didn't really want to be blocked. ] <sup>]</sup> 01:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I'm not a mind-reader, he said he wanted to be blocked. He can now say he didn't actually mean it, if he didn't. At any rate given the joke RFAr I think a block for disruption was coming soon anyway. --] 01:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::Not indefinite though, I think a 2 hour disruption block would be better considering that Cool Cat is a positive contributor. ] <sup>]</sup> 01:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I don't get what's positive at all about this tantrum. He should really understand that he shouldn't have done this, apparently he's stubbornly waiting for me/another admin to blink. That may sound like I'm myself venturing close to disrupting Misplaced Pages to prove a point, but I don't at all see blocking him as disrupting Misplaced Pages. If others disagree I respect that and will unblock. --] 01:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It's just a tantrum. You're blocked now, Cat, so, um, I guess "Mission accomplished". The big wiki keep on turning, Cool Cat keeps on burning. You know how to use the unblock request templates whenever you're ready if ever. - ]</small> (]) 01:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:I believe that Cool Cat was upset at the lack of support for his position on the page ], where he eventually wrote:
::"I am bailing out of this request. Too many trolls and/or members of the deletionism cabal. If Elaragirl's conduct is acceptable, please delete WP:CIVIL. --Cat out 00:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)"
:and:
::"Indefinitely block this idiot. This cool cat guy is only here for a malicious purpose. He should be annoyed harassed like no tomorrow as he has always been. (please check timestamps of evidence too) --Cat out 00:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)"
:I'm sorry he feels that way, but the RfC itself may have been a violation of WP:POINT. I did participate in the RfC, so I am not an uninterested party. Still, I wish him well. --]] 01:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::User:Cool Cat has been frustrated for the last couple of weeks because a number of Star Trek-related articles that he respects have been put up for AfD, and I believe in a couple of cases deleted. In the process he has crossed paths with User:Elaragirl, a self-described "very aggressive" user and emphatic deletionist (who is currently blocked for 24 hours in an unrelated matter, see discussion above thread "Block of User:Elaragirl") and they have certainly rubbed each other the wrong way. Cool Cat's RfC filing against Elaragirl earlier today received, one could say, less than unanimous support which seems to have upset Cool Cat further.
::Cool Cat has been talking about leaving Misplaced Pages, temporarily or permanently, for a few days now and probably could use a little bit of a Wikibreak. One possibility that occurs to me is that he's sought out a block as a means of Wikibreak enforcement, which I know is not permitted, yet is probably harmless for a couple of days in this instance. ] 01:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It looks like he's been unblocked by Bishonen. I don't really mind aside from the minor point that I'd like to at least have been asked about it first before my action was reversed, but whatever. Hopefully Cool Cat will have calmed down and come back. --] 01:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:Sorry, I tried to post but got edit conflicted all over the place. I've unblocked because we're not supposed to block on request, just as admins aren't supposed to self-block. Please chill, Cat out. ] | ] 01:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
::Eh, a single revert of an action is no big deal. Why should we own our admin actions any more than we own our edits? Looks like no harm done, at any rate. ] ] 01:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

He's an admin at Commons and is acting this way. Heh. -- ] 02:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Stop trolling CC. -- <small> ]</small> 03:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Support Bishonen's unblock and second Drini's comment. This looks like an exercise in ]. --<font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 08:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe re ] added to CC's frustration. Whatever the real reason is i ask CC to cool down and take easy. -- '']'' ] <small>]</small> 12:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Penis images ==

Can someone explain what happened over the past few minutes? Many pages were filled with a repeated image ]. ] ''']''' ] 00:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:It was vandalism at ] - see ] to credit the guy who tracked it down. ] 01:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::(edit conflict)It's fixed now. ] vandalized the high-risk {{tl|Please check ISBN}} template and it carried over to many articles. Also, the template is now protected. ''']]''' 01:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
God I hate the Commons. We should have been able to delete that image as soon as it appeared everywhere. ] ''']''' ] 01:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::We could upload some milder image locally using that same image name. ]|] 03:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Yes, it was on ]. Can we block a range of IPs? These were from 165.21.155.10 and 165.21.155.11. I suspect he's also ] as well (see the edits to ] from 21:49 to 21:51 on December 5), but it may just be a shared computer. In the past few days, he's put genitalia on the front page (on two separate occasions, with two separate images), and he's given Bill Gates and George W. Bush Down Syndrome. But the other edits ''seem'' very constructive! What to do? <font color="#08457E" vlink="#08457E"><b>]</b></font><sub><font color="black">]</font></sub> 01:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::It would seem prudent to alter the procedure for featured articles, by protecting any template that appears on the page. ] ''']''' ] 01:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::It looks like it's going to come to that, sadly. It will take a considerable amount of time to do each day, too. But considering we see this kind of vandalism more days than not lately, it looks like we might have to do it. --] 01:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:He added the image to {{tl|ref label}} as well and thus had himself back-uped when the first of the two templates were reverted (which was {{tl|ref label}}, and you don't want to know how stressing it was to look through 20 templates, finding the vandalism, removing it, and than seeing the articles still having penises all over them...). Anyway, shouldn't templates such as those be protected on a regular basis? They should not generally be edited, and {{tl|ref label}} hadn't been edited since April this year before he came along. &ndash;&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;•&nbsp;]&nbsp;•&nbsp;]&nbsp;•</small> 01:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::I have to say that this incident may have convinced me. I have been looking at the dozens of templates on a country page, such as {{tl|AGO}} and {{tl|Country alias Angola}}, and shudder at the thought of trying to locate a piece of vandalism in this haystack. These templates are extensively transcluded and almost never edited and I see very little reason why they shouldn't be protected as a matter of course. - ]] 02:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Well, maybe it doesn't have to come to blocking everything. Is it possible for an admin to block a page from ''viewing''? This vandalism was well thought out, and took a while to get fixed. If an admin could stop all views on a page while they worked on reverting it, I think that would be helpful... <font color="#08457E" vlink="#08457E"><b>]</b></font><sub><font color="black">]</font></sub> 02:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Stop all views of Today's Featured Article (the main target)? I doubt that would go down well – ] 02:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:The image of choice is now ] --] 03:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::The image says it links to two articles, but I can't seem to find it at all.—] (]) 03:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Use ] to prevent the use of an image on all but select appropriate articles. —]→]&nbsp;&bull; 03:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:I have (temporarlly) put all images listed in the commons category into the bad image list. We no doubt will want to remove them all again soon but maybe for now it might help... ++]: ]/] 04:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

<- please keep an eye on this. --] 03:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I also at ] (though the image was ]). careful monitoring is needed for a few hours. these are ''sneaky''. ] 04:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

By my count, about 11 of the templates within today's Main Page FA, ] were vandalized. I know there's still ] on whether the Main Page FA itself should have protection or not, but there's really no reason that the templates on the Main Page FA, or even Templates in general, shouldn't have semi-protection. A new IP user making a good faith edit really has no business mucking around in the Templates.--] 04:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:] needs protection. Its just been targeted by the same vandal. ] 07:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::Protected. ] 07:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::: Why does Commons even HAVE so many pictures of penises? And can it not set up some "blacklist", and have images on that list ''not'' be automatically fetched from commons when a local copy doesn't exist? Seems to me that would solve a lot of problems – ] 08:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:::: That sort of defeats the purpose of having Commons, though, and it would presumably be new development. I did add all the images in the category (there may still be others) to the blacklist as a temporary measure (thank you ] for making generating that list easy!). Other hardworking admins (Centrx and BanyanTree) reviewed the list and made it permanent. That really should help. Don't forget there ARE legitimate uses for some of the images, after all...) ++]: ]/] 12:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

===Template vandalism still happening?===
From it looks like the template vandalism is still going on. Can someone protect '''all''' the templates used in this article, please? Plus the templates used in the templates... ] 12:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

===Other discussions on this topic===
Other discussions on this topic are ], ], ] and ]. Please add more if you find them. Someone may wish to consolidate all these disparate discussions into one location. ] 12:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::You know, we've been seeing a lot of more of this as of late: template vandalism to the FA (and often penis images as well). I wonder if it's the same idiot, or if they're somehow connected (hope no one said this before).-]<sup>]|]</sup> 14:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== TerriNunn ==

] is apparently completely oblivious to the concept of encyclopedias, and has repeatedly insisted on ] that people who are allegedly bisexual should be included "to let the reader decide", that NNDB is a reliable source, and that the concept of Misplaced Pages as it stands is narrow minded, "''There does seem to be a prevailing mindset on wiki that can't cope with grey areas, the elusive, complex, fugitive, difficult. Nothing can exist as it is, it has to be squeezed, mutilated, distorted, have parts lopped off, until it fits into neat compartments. We should be reflecting the complexity of human behaviour and desire, not developing a willed and distorting case of tunnel vision.''".

She has refused to accept ] and ], "''Notability" is hardly an objective category. It is the expression of a particular set of power relations (read any theory of ideology since Marx). Verifiability (see article on Vienna Circle for the limits of that idea) - 98% of life is in the realm of the not-yet-verified, partially verified, tentatively put forward on partial evidence, partially falsified, as well as the unverifiable. What is to count as evidence? Is that decision verifiable? Who decides?)''.

Basically this user seems to want to turn Misplaced Pages into a dumping ground, and that all Wikipedians who think otherwise are stupid:"''I am not saying that Misplaced Pages is narrow - I am saying it shouldn't be narrow. It's motto should be Here Comes Everybody. And I am saying "If your evidence is bona fide, then provide it, and let the reader decide" Treat people as grown-ups''".

She has called me a bore for asking her to stick to policy (WP:NPA), and is being unpleasant to people for insisting . She keeps screaming about people "policing" Misplaced Pages, and she's severely pissing both me off and every editor she has come into contact with so far. Can anything be done? ] (Have a nice day!) 01:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::You can't do that do that per ] - nothing controversial. And if anything is controversial, being bisexual certainly fits the criteria. I wonder if the BLP board could handle this one. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 14:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:I see a separate issue here - if this isn't ], then we have a ] violation (in the prohibited section: ''Names of well-known living or recently deceased people, such as Chuck Norris or Ken Lay, unless you are that living person. '') I've posted a note on her talk page asking her about it. | ] <small>]</small> 02:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::My question was "answered" by the user blanking her talk page and replacing all content with the words "Welcome" and "No." I'm going to take that to mean she's not ], and have indef-blocked her per ]. Let us know if she resurfaces under another name. | ] <small>]</small> 16:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Sarah Ewart ==

She my User page after she placed a sockpuppet accusation sign on my user page. She provided no evidence of sockpuppetry and blocked me as well. I asked others to remove the sockpuppet sign as seemed to have been my right but now they can not since she protected my user page. Sarah and I have had conflict ever since I started editing and it seems wrong that she was the one to block me and mean spirited of her to force this on my user page when I am blocked and can not edit anyway. She also protected my talk page after she got it the way she wanted it. She seems to have manipulated the system in such a way as I can not even complain without being in breach of her block; a block which has no basis either. Canuckster
*Good for her. See {{userlinks|Canuckster}} and {{userlinks|Ottawaman}}. ] 02:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
**Also, {{userlinks|JohnnyCanuck}} ]]]<small>]</small> 03:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
*Sure looks like {{user3|Canuckster}} is the one trolling. Sarah's actions look entirely appropriate -- ] 03:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
**Going to endorse Sarah's actions as well. You'll have to show me a lot more to convince me that Sarah has acted in a way not appropriate. '''] <sup>]&nbsp;·&nbsp;]&nbsp;]</sup>''' 07:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
**I believe Thatcher performed a CheckUser. So good for her. -- '']'' ] <small>]</small> 13:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Well, since she thinks I am Ottawaman and he has been blocked indefinitely, where does that leave me? I'd like to see some proof that I am Ottawaman, especially since it's a lie; it's not right to make accusations without evidence. Canuckster
::::I said that based on the comments of the CheckUser clerck ]. Maybe you'll be needing to have a look at his report. -- '']'' ] <small>]</small> 14:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Whoa there. Clerks shuffle papers, I don't have access to the checkuser function. I made the same determination Sarah did, that Canuckster and Ottawaman are the same person, based on their single-minded focus on smearing ] and style of edits and edit summaries. (AFAIK, JohnnyCanuck is VaughanWatch, a different banned user obsessed with a different Canadian politician.) Ottawaman was blocked for trolling and incivility, extended to indefinite when he created another sockpuppet account and used it to fraudulently certify an abusive RFC against Sarah. Canuckster is now banned for a week for more trolling. To Canuckster I suggest sitting out the rest of the week without editing from IP addresses to evade the block, which was well deserved. When the block expires, hopefully you can be a productive and cooperative editor. If you insist on continuing to try and smear Michael Ignatieff or harass admins who are just doing their job, you will quickly join the ranks of permanently banned editors. ] 15:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Backlog at CSD ==

] suggested I mention this here so I am: the backlog at ] is huge, and some admin help is needed. Anyone who can help would be appreciated. Cheers, ✎ <b>] aka "Wiz" </b> <sup>(]) (])</sup> 01:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:When isn't the backlog at C:CSD huge? :) I once gave a shout over at #wikipedia, which seemed to work a little... <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]_''']'''</span> 03:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::I did all 90 or so of the images, but ten minutes later, a whole new bunch appeared. Blurgh. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 13:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] ==
{{editcount|Highfructosecornsyrup}}
{{editcount|Wikipediatrix}}

It seems my/our suspicions of this user being a sockpuppet were well founded, however the editor responsible was certainly a shock. Checkuser confirms the perp is definitely ] - and, to quote Essjay;
:"The sock appears to have been a straw-man sock, and was used for double voting (albiet, opposite votes) in several AFDs. What to do with it should be left to the admins."
There are also disputes on various Scientology articles talk pages in which the sock has been used to directly breach ].

So, question is, where to from here. As a "involved party" I would appreciate input. No blocks have been issued at this time ''']''' 05:44, December 8, 2006 (UTC)
::Er, double voting and breaches of SOCK are shocking and unacceptable for an editor who has been around so long. At the very least the sock should be indef'd and Wikipediatrix given a week block to prevent her from continuing this behaviour and to think about her actions seriously. At the least. ] | ] 05:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:: Wow. I mean yeah. That's completely unacceptable. What Pschemp said (I'm somewhat involved having welcomed the user and been the first editor to ask if the editor had previous experience and argued with the editor about deletion matters). I'm probably too involved to make the block. ] 05:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::: (many edit conflicts) Well now, this is very bizarre. Of course block Highfructosecornsyrup indef. Beyond that I don't know what to do. ''So weird''... ]]] 05:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::The sock is blocked. I'd prefer to leave Wikipediatrix to a more experienced admin; my recommendation would be a short-term block per ], and if everyone else here is conflicted, I'll do the block myself. | ] <small>]</small> 06:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::I agree with a short-term block, <s>perhaps a week.</s> --''']]''' 06:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::Actually, looking over the user's history, a longer block might be needed, possibly more than a week (I'd suggest maybe two weeks). --''']]''' 06:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::I'm actually usually the conservative one on block length, but I make a real distinction between disruption and outright deceit. Two weeks is the minimum block I would apply in this case. I think the block length should at least equal the length of time for the sock account, which would be about two weeks. —]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 08:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Just in case no-one saw it, my reccomendations (which I gave immediately following the findings from Essjay being published) are here. '''] <sup>]&nbsp;·&nbsp;]&nbsp;]</sup>''' 07:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
* Wow. I have asked Wikipediatrix what gives. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 08:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Having studied (thanks, in part, to the excellent articles we have here) the history of Scientology in detail, I'd like to know if there's any feasible way of framing someone in this way? ] 08:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I've seen Wikipediatrix around in a lot of AfDs, and him using a sock puppet like this... doesn't make sense. Maybe there's something more to this? Maybe he knows this guy in real life and they were using the same internet connection at one point? I mean, really, it doesn't make sense. -- ] 08:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)



''Wait a second''. 'Trix stopped editing on the 29th, and before then, CornSyrup made '''no''' edits to CoS related pages. The CoS edits on the fructose account are '''all''' after trix disappeared. What the f... is going on here? ] 08:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

**'''Comment''' - The sockpuppet didn't start editing until a week before Wikipediatrix stopped. There is little overlapping... I wonder if Wikipediatrix was planning to ditch her original account and get a new username for privacy, and voted opposite votes to disassociate the identities? If so, you guys have just taken a cannonball to that plan :-\ ] 10:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

* '''FYI''' For a full summary of the articles, and all the individual diffs showing the pages common to both accounts ''']''' ''']''' 11:14, December 8, 2006 (UTC)


I think the people questioning this are unfamiliar with how checkuser works so let me give you and example. Essjay's findings show that these two edits were made within minutes of each other using the exact same underlying IP address and no other users have used that IP address. There is no way this is more than one user, the IP isn't an open proxy.

*(cur) (last) 03:50, November 29, 2006 Wikipediatrix (Talk | contribs | block) (removed rant. this isn't a chat room.)
*(cur) (last) 03:41, November 29, 2006 Highfructosecornsyrup (Talk | contribs | block) (→List of Teletubbies episodes)

This, combined with the diffs Glen has listed are pretty damming. Plus, I've no reason to doubt the checkuser results. Additionally, the fact that Wikipediatrix stopped editing about the time the sock became really active is even more proof in my book. I've blocked for a week. ] | ] 14:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand how a checkuser works, however I believe that the pattern of editing here is closer to that of two people using the same computer than that of a user deliberately socking. See ]. ] 14:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::Er, two people who used the same computer within 11 minutes of each other who also edited the exact same articles? Highly doubtful. ] | ] 15:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I would say possible myself... A lot of people have home networks and therefore several computers could appear as the same IP (a closed proxy).
:::However, I am not saying that this is the case - I am just a little bewildered by the fact that a previous good editor suddenly does all of this. It is a little bit strange is it not?
:::Has anyone actually emailed her to find out what she has to say?-]<sup>]</sup> 15:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::I'd say it was strange except that it has happened before and more than once. Remember ] for example. And then there was the guy who was vandalising under one account and reverting it under another. Anyone is welcome to email the user, and a message has been left on the talkpage. Should a plausible explanation be put forward, things can be reconsidered, nothing on the wiki is permanent. However, right now, I feel I've done what the situation warranted. ] | ] 15:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::True, but she's been defending the articles against the CoS on a daily basis for over a year now, in fact she's one of the main causes behind ] being FA. Why would she suddenly switch sides? Maybe I'm assuming too much good faith, but I can't help smelling fish. Anyway, as you say, nothing's permanent. ] 15:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I've just sent her an email. However, she's not edited for the last 10 days, so I don't know if she's anywhere near a computer. Maybe she's married Tom cruise... ] 15:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately yandman, whilst I applaud your ability to continue to assume good faith it the most dire of circumstances and look for any rationale that could explain this, I must invoke ]; you are wrong. You are excluding one vital factor in your assumptions; The fact that I asked four or five direct questions this user regarding their previous experience, and they denied they had ever edited here, and learned by watching us for two years. (see )
This would have been the perfect opportunity to tell use her roommate was an avid editor... or another such explanation. So, its Wikipediatrix, no question there. But, I do have some serious concerns that need answering about all this that havent been discussed. (see next post) ] 16:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:'''Here's the rub:''' This is the fucking perplexing thing about all this. It is ''directly because of Wikipediatrix that I am even here at all.'' She actually about my website that caused me to find Misplaced Pages. A website that parodies Scientology and Tom Cruise. When questions arose about merging the article, she defended it. Almost exactly a year to the day later, I am lodging the Checkuser request that gets her blocked But... (see my next post...) ''']''' 17:00, December 8, 2006 (UTC)
:::This is better than CSI! ] 17:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


A two-word question: &nbsp; wireless router? <small>&ndash; ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> ''16:44, 8 Dec 2006 (UTC).''</small>
:Yes, that is a good point but what speaks against it is that wikipediatrix diappears and HFCS appears. If she was being played you would expect both editors to be active during the same overall time frame. I have a few ideas but none worth repeating and none that speak to her blocks. --] 16:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::Guys, please look at the facts here: 1) They edited the same pages, and within minutes of each other. 2) Wikipediatrix stopped about the time that Syrup picked up, 3) There is no other activity from this IP, 4) Syrup immediately jumped into administrative level stuff. I know people don't want to believe she's capable of it, but gosh, to be a rather blunt: if it looks, feels, tastes and smells like sockpuppetry, it's probably sockpuppetry. The chances of this being a coincidence are about the chance you'll win the lottery today. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 17:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Undeniable. But why would someone spend two years fighting Al and terryeo and then suddenly turn into them? There's gotta be one heck of an explanation somewhere. ] 17:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Glen S above. A few people are tying themselves in knotts here trying to explain what is pretty clear to me. I think the burden is fairly on Wikipediatrix to explain the situation if we are wrong about the deception and sockpuppetry, and I highly doubt that we are. I still think a one week block is not long enough and would prefer to see it extended to two weeks, and even this seems like maybe not enough. This type of deliberate, willful deception is far more disruptive than your typical willy on wheels vandal, so my recommendation for a longer block is not for punative reasons, but to allow time for the damage caused to be undone and for the community to reflect upon this incident without having to worry that it is continuing. Note that I have had ''no'' interactions with either of these accounts, so there is no personal stake for me in my statements here. It is simply a reaction to the scope of the damage to people's trust in the community that behavior like this causes. I think perhaps an ArbCom case should be opened in this matter, but I will leave that decision to people more closely connected to the events. —]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 17:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:The situation indeed is quite odd, but the editor has been asked for some sort of explanation, both on her talkpage and I father via e-mail. I would suggest that any further action be held in abeyance until we see whether she posts anything and what she has to say. ] 17:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::agree. Everything Fructose did was immediately reverted as blatant PoV, and everything trix did was accepted at the time. I agree that we've all been deceived and that an arbcom is definitely needed, but Misplaced Pages hasn't really been damaged, so there's little cause for alarm. Let's let this one play out. ] 17:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::"Everything Fructose did was immediately reverted as blatant PoV, and everything trix did was accepted at the time." And what does that tell us. Cause I have to tell you, guys, she did much more credible work as Fructose than she did as Trix. And I don't think that comes from my POV as a Scientologist either. At least over the period I've been here and also her older edits that I have worked with. --] 17:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::I agree we can wait for a response before extending the block. However, if we have no response by the time the one week block expires, I suggest and indef block until we at least get a response. As to the statement from Yandman regarding "Misplaced Pages hasn't really been damaged", I respectfully disagree. I repeat that these actions are far more damaging than a blatant serial vandal, and I can't see anyone arguing that that doesn't cause damage. —]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 17:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::what do you see as damaging? The edits by wikipediatrix? The edits by HFCS? Or something else? --] 18:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Primarily the undermining of trust. —]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 18:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::Hmmmm, true. But we never really know who we are dealing with and should govern ourselves accordingly. I wonder what precedent wikipedia has experienced for something like this. --] 18:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::No frakking way!!! This is surreal... There must be another explanation. Maybe she is on vacation and someone is using her computer? We absolutely need to hear what she has to say before we do anything permanent. Including the ban of HFCS. As far as I am concerned all that has been done thus far is that another rational editor of Scn arcticles has been banned for life. ---] 19:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Calm down, nobody has been banned for life. Read the discussion more carefully. —]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 20:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

===Update===
See Wikipediatrix's explanation and comments ]. ] 20:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:Based on that response I think the current 1 week block is the appropriate response and it can end there. Regardless of intent, double voting, switching back and forth over short periods of time, and contributing with both accounts to the same articles without disclosure is disruptive. —]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 20:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:Oh, and the deliberate dissemination when Highfructosecornsyrup querried regarding previous experience here. That was disruptive in all the effort that has been expended getting the straight answer that should have been forthcoming when first asked. —]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 20:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::Interesting. I was going to ask why the block because I did not see anything wrong with Fructose's edits and socks are not specifically disallowed. Changing your mind is also not disallowed. Then I checked and saw that she had voted keep on two of her own AfDs so that is somewhat disingenuous and grounds for some short block. Other than that did trix/syrup do anything really wrong other than torque people off. Hell, trix sure torqued me when acting the critic. --] 20:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)



==Disruption on ] and ]==

The article tagged as POV by users promoting unnacceptable, pro-Soviet POV (i.e claiming Baltic states were not occupied by the USSR). The whole talk page is full of sources, proving that world community generally regarded Soviet rule as occupation. Despite obvious sources and clear third party opinions , users ], ], ] continue blogging the talk page with their ] and 'analysis' based on Soviet propaganda myths.

Probably violating Misplaced Pages policies:

*routinely ] due to ] 'counterarguments'
and refusal to recognise established opnion of the world community/researchers: ,
(claiming Baltic states ''joined'' the USSR - this is not acceptable opinion)
*] or (]): littering talk page by adding unsuitable Russian propaganda, with no relevance to the 'dispute' . ] - ] 10:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::Constanz, you are fresh from a 3RR block and back to tendentious editing again? I did not add a single sentence to the article in question, therefore your accusations are both misleading and offensive. Please take a note that ] is not part of ], therefore your message will most likely be ignored here. I see that it was ] who , and I think he should be reprimanded for doing so. His previous forum shopping activities are already under scrutiny ]. --<font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 11:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] off to a bad start on ] ==

Hi, we have a new user who is off to a bad start. She appears to have signed up today so some of the 3RR diffs are from her IP. They are: , , , , , . She has reinserted the same series of paragraphs into various places in the text and has been reverted by myself, ], and ]. She has also approached other editors on the talk page with a distinct lack of good faith (see ) and has accused ] of ...trying to obstruct the truth. There may be legal implications." I don't know if this is now some kind of legal threat, but her edits, and justifications are IMO POV-pushing and abusive. I've suggested, perhaps too soon, to Gadfium, however to his credit, he suggested compromise. I don't want to ], but I think now there needs to be some intervention from an uninvolved admin to explain to her the need for NPOV and civility, and the 3RR rule. ] 11:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
* A warning or explanation on her Talk might have helped, I have now left one. If this continues she can be blocked briefly and if necessary the article semi-protected, but hopefully some calm discourse, combined with letting her know how Misplaced Pages works, will have the desired effect. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 12:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] blocked ==

I just blocked {{User|Puneetsquare}} for 24 hours for persistently adding a non-notable person to ] despite warnings not to. For the next 72, I'll be sparse around here, so can I have a few others watch this article? The user was operating through IP addresses for a lot of yesterday (presumably while at school) so the block probably won't really hold in that sense. Also, the user's most recent action before the blocking was to install pop-ups and turn-on the ability to revert easily, so I would guess that the intention is to keep reverting any people who keep the person out of the article.

The person is the very definition of non-notable and probably is the user who keeps adding it. The section that keeps getting added is about a kid (Puneet Singh--note the relation to the user) who wrote a letter to the editor that was published in a local newspaper. If anyone wants to add any protection to the article, that's fine too, I didn't feel it was totally necessary for one user's actions right now. ] 11:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:Oh good, he's added popups to his monobook page. Now he can revert with hardly a second thought. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 14:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== TerriNunn again ==

Further to my point ], ] has started going into all-out personal attacks - could someone please tell her about what an Encyclopedia's for, and/or block her? ] (Have a nice day!) 13:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:Judging by the self-blanking of her talk page and her comments pointed out above, Terri is contemplating wikisuicide-by-cop.. Her response to a perfectly legitimate question about her suspected violation of ] was to blank her talk page, I'll defer to others to take action here but something has to be done. <b>]</b> <small>]</small> 13:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:She probably deserves an indef for the ] violation, but even beyond that, the diff ] linked above show pretty clear contempt for the concept of an encyclopedia and earlier comments dismissing the concept of ], as well as ], ], ], ] suggests that Misplaced Pages is not the right place for this person.--] 14:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::I have just discovered that she blanked her talkpage before calling me simple-minded - she seemingly does not intend to stop editing. List of bisexual people on which she has mainly argued is one thing, but it seems she has also got a habit of in their articles - her edit summaries and consequent message on the talkpage was full of personal attacks and accusations of homophobia. Nunn appears to be a bisexual on a mission - bring as many into the fold as possible, even if it is kicking and screaming. ] (Have a nice day!) 14:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I've indef-blocked her for the username violation. | ] <small>]</small> 16:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

She has returned under the name NerriTunn, and it personally attacking me , and . Please, please, could an admin do something. ] (Have a nice day!) 17:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

==admin==
Take a look at . --] 13:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:Dealt with by ]. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 13:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::It appears JoshuaZ dealt with a previous problem a couple of days ago. I've blocked accordingly this time round. Striver, you could give a little more context when reporting on AN/I e.g. recent editing history and blocks incurred by this user. <b>]</b> <small>]</small> 14:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Blocked user ==

Per I blocked ], who seems to have no aims here other than self-promotion. I think we can do without her. Even if she is hot. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 14:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:What a case! -- '']'' ] <small>]</small> 14:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::She loves ]! ] 14:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Why do you ban me?? ==

I would like forgiveness from the community, and, while I have done some bad things here, I hope the community can forgive me, I do not WANT' to be banned by the community, I'll be a good kid. I will not use sockpuppets, or be abusive, or anything else.
This account is my sockpuppet, last-ever one at that! --] 14:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:Ummm! And who should recompensate ? Just use this new account if you want to become ''cooler''. -- '']'' ] <small>]</small> 15:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::Netsnipe already blocked this account as soon as it started making disruptive edits. &ndash; ]] 15:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Especially . Tagging an article w/o discussing! It wasn't a good sign from someone wanting to be forgiven. -- '']'' ] <small>]</small> 15:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::nor was 1)falsely claiming he was unblocked, 2)disputing the most benign article he could possibly find, or 3)immediately nominating several RfA's. ]<sup>]|]</sup> 19:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
If you wish to appeal the block, log back on as ], not ], and bring the matter to your own talk page. --] ] 15:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::If you're trying to get yourself unblocked, that contribution history is only pushing you 180 degrees in the wrong direction. ]<sup>]|]</sup> 19:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] ==

This user has a history of mischief. They were blocked for the month of November. They're back now, and vandalizing again. They've only received a couple of warnings since returning, but they've vandalized at least four articles over two days. Not sure what the policy is on warnings for a repeat anonymous vandal, but it seems at the very least like something to keep an eye on. ] 15:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:Blocked again. Refer to ] next time for prompt actions. -- '']'' ] <small>]</small> 16:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== IP vandalism - "page replaced with..." and "blanked the page" ] ==

I've noticed a large number of very similar-looking edits recently (see , , , and for several examples). Having been a bit out of the loop recently myself, I'm wonder if this is new, or has it been dealt with before? Does it strike anyone else as something co-ordinated, or am I seeing patterns where none exist? --]]]<sup><small>(])</small></sup> 16:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:It's a new feature (I love it!!). Makes it easier to catch vandalism on RC patrol. And now I wish we had a "section blanked" feature as well. ] ] 16:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:: Aha! Very nice, thanks for the quick response. I was wondering if maybe it was some vandalbot being flagrant about its activities. But the Wiki itself putting it in there, that's really quite neat. Cheers! --]]]<sup><small>(])</small></sup> 16:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::: '']''. → , , , , etc... -- '']'' ] <small>]</small> 16:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::I've just indef blocked ] for just that. -- '']'' ] <small>]</small> 16:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Departure of User:MONGO ==

See ]. ] 17:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
* A loss for WP. A pox on the houses of those who drove him away. ] 17:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
* Yes, this is indeed a black day for Misplaced Pages. —]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 17:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:I hope a little time off will allow him to reconsider; if we let the trolls win, Misplaced Pages is finished. <tt style="color:#161;">RadioKirk<small> (]|]|])</small></tt> 18:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

*This is exactly why we cannot be soft on trolling, it drives away legitimate editors. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 18:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:::This is an important point. ] 18:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Agreed. Trolling is bad. (and see my comments below) ]<sup>]|]</sup> 19:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
===Comments by ] on the "truthers"===
This would mean more workload on others to monitor the 9/11 pages. I didn't come to Misplaced Pages to work on those pages, but won't tolerate undue weight amount of "nonsense" fringe theories. There are so many 9/11 pages here, which are attractive to the "truth" movement, who are extremely persistent and determined to spread the truth with their ] sources. They like to use Misplaced Pages as a tool in their truth spreading. And, I've been on the Loose Change forums and do observe them often consulting Misplaced Pages in their "research". If you go on their forums and at all question anything they say or profess expertise, such as in engineering or as a pilot, they BAN you from their forum. I've been banned, but can signup again for another account. Not only do they go after folks like MONGO who insist on ], ], and enforcement of other policies, but lately I've seen the "truthers" even go after 9/11 victims and their families. This shows how despicable their tactics are.

Examples of the tactics used by the "truthers":

* Charles Burlingame, the pilot of ] is a popular target for "truthers"... His sister, Debra, remarked in the USA Today about the ] video, "The only thing they (the filmmakers) seem to have gotten right about the Sept. 11 attacks is the date when they occurred...They aren't truth-tellers looking to save the world. They're con artists hoping to sucker conspiracy-theory paranoids or anti-government malcontents into shelling out their hard-earned dollars." His daughter, Wendy Burlingame came on the Loose Change forum and remarked "Reading the conspiracy theories regarding my father have made me and my family sick. We realize this is being done by sick individuals who need to deal with 9-11 in a different way than others. It does not make it any easier when you read your father was involved with the terrorists when you Google his name. I hope the people who write these things can sleep well at night." BTW, she died earlier this week in a suspicious fire in her apartment.

* They are also going after Lloyd England, the taxi driver who's cab was damaged by a lightpole when AA77 flew over the highway and crashed. See photo, ]. ( Dylan Avery (director of Loose Change), his "co-producers" Jason Bermas and Korey Rowe, their friend Russell Pickering, and their other buddies on the "Pentagon Elite Research Team" came to Washington at the end of August. They found out where Mr. England lives and came by unannounced with a video camera. They tricked the poor old 70 year-old man into talking with them. They are probably going to cherry pick bits from the "interview" and use it in the final cut of Loose Change. They have already been showing the video and amusing themselves with it. This google video is sick Here's one of their blogs, which talks about their "interviews" with other Pentagon witnesses. (it's a myspace link, so okay to click on it w/o fear of being tracked) Who knows, some of this could be lies, but some of it is real and disgusting.

* The truthers ("Killtown" in particular) have also gone after Val McClatchey, who took this photograph near Shanksville, moments after the plane crashed there. Here's one of Killtown's blogs (it's a blogspot link, so okay to click it) Killtown and others accuse her of having faked the photograph. Here's how Killtown has harrassed Ms. McClatchey, as reported in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette "The real estate agent has recently become a target of bloggers calling themselves "9-11 researchers," They have visited Mrs. McClatchey's office and called her at home, posting satellite maps of her property and accusing her of digitally altering her photo to insert a fake smoke plume. The bloggers have picked apart her story, highlighting inconsistencies in different news accounts and questioning her motives. Others have described her as "surly," "hostile," "irate" and "defensive." People have called her at home, accusing her of being anti-American and of "holding the photo hostage." On a simple Google search, Mrs. McClatchey's name now pops up in the same sentence as "total fraud." ... This Killtown, whoever he may be, I find it very disturbing that this is a 16-page attack on me personally," said Mrs. McClatchey, who opened her real estate company a year and a half ago. "My business is named. That hurts me personally. It's pretty disturbing. My whole life is out there, a map to where I live, a map to my office. It's a safety issue for me. There's some crazy people out there."

* And the NY911Truthers show up every Saturday at ] to "protest" and harrass tourists and passerbys. I would care less if they showed up outside the ] or some place else. But, find this highly distasteful.

It's one thing for some kids in their parents basement to do all this from behind a computer screen, but when they show up at GZ and go out harrassing victims and their families, it can't be tolerated. I know that some of the truthers that edit on Misplaced Pages are some of the hardcore folks. Banned user ] is one of them.

I have done what I can to keep those articles in check with Misplaced Pages policies of ], ], ], etc. MONGO has been invaluable, and with his experience writing featured articles, he knows the policies well and what it takes to maintain a reputable, good article. The ] article is always among the most viewed articles. If that article descends into a propaganda, conspiracy POV pushing article for the "truth" movement, it would on the whole make Misplaced Pages look quite bad. I doubt they will ever succeed, as there is no consensus for what they are trying to do. In the event they did, I would likely give up on Misplaced Pages myself, viewing it as a waste of my time. There would be no use working on articles relating to my main area of expertise, including ] (sorely lacking on Misplaced Pages). It's my hope that Misplaced Pages has the mechanisms in place to support enforcement of Misplaced Pages policies that are essential to keeping 9/11 articles reputable, yet alone create a hospitable environment where we can work to further improve the quality of them.

It's not ordinary trolling we are dealing with, but rather some real hardcore folks. --] <small>(])</small> 18:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::I'm sorry; I'm not up on this whole thing. Can somebody explain to me exactly why MONGO quit? Which trolls do we allow too much? -]<sup>]|]</sup> 19:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I can't speak for MONGO, but he's been caught up in both the Encyclopedia Dramatica situation (including extensive attempts to "out" his real-life identity) as well as attacks from editors on the September 11 and related articles. It really has been unrelenting. A recent proposal in an ArbCom case to desysop him can't have done much for his morale either (note that this is not a criticism of the arbitrator; I opposed the proposal, but the arbs have jobs to do, too). ] 20:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::I'm not aware if ] is involved with ED. I don't think so, but could be wrong. But, he's been pushing the "truth". I have Seabhcan over on the Loose Change forum, as heavily involved. If that's what he chooses to do off-wiki, that's okay. We can have a place for ], and present them for what they are. But, I don't accept folks pushing the "truth" here against ], ], ], etc. Furthermore, his mannerisms have been rather uncivil towards MONGO, ] and others. It's a combination of this and the ED situation that tests our patience. Misplaced Pages needs to be firm in enforcing such policies. MONGO was trying to do so, sometimes taking actions into his own hands, thinking it often takes too long for other admins to respond to ANI posts. Though, MONGO does make note of his actions on ANI for review by other admins. Other admins concurred with the block of Cplot, for example. With the ] situation, the trolling has been relentless and his socks need to be blocked on sight. This situation is frustrating me, as well as MONGO. --] <small>(])</small> 22:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Repeated insertion of copyrighted content ==

New user ], apparently acting as an employee of , has repeatedly copied and pasted text from DER pages into articles ], ], ], ]. User has been that this likely constitutes copyright infringement and any case is not consistent with policy. In hopes that this is the correct space to report this, --] 18:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:There may well be ] concerns here as well. ] 18:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:DER holds the copyright to all information ] continues to delete. This information is not only legitimate and accurate, but it is also information filmmakers, anthropologists, ethnographers, historians and many others will find great value in. All sources, including DER, have been cited according to Misplaced Pages policy. Is this not a site for sharing important factual information? It seems ] has a problem with DER, or DER's filmmaker's, who I'd like to point out, are some of the world's most respected and important documentary filmmakers. Also, DOCUED, is DOCUMENTARY EDUCATIONAL RESOURCES abbreviated, not sure what ] is alluding to here. ] 18:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I've answered at ]. ] 19:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::If you're willing to turn over the copyright information into the public sphere (i.e., you can no longer claim any of it as your own, even if someone uses it in their own material), then you can feel free to paste it here. But you'll also need to put a notice on your website that all information is now under the ] license. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 18:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Technically, that is not true. GFDL allows the copyright owner to dual-license. The originator always keeps the copyright. What they add to WP is released under the GFDL and can be copied/changed. But they can also keep the copyright notice on the original page as well. That page does not have to announce that the material has been dual licensed elsewhere. But they do have to send an email to Wikimedia Foundation stating that they GFDL what they do add to WP. ] 18:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::::32.97.110.142 is correct... we don't expect contributions to be released into the ]. Regardless, we don't really want cut-and-pastes of promotional text however it is licensed. ] 19:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::I stand corrected. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 19:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

After posting a GFDL notice on , ] is reinserting the copied text again (into ], ], and ]. I still feel these insertions are inappropriate for Misplaced Pages, but I will hold off on reverting them to see what other editors think. --] 20:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:Without a specific GFDL release, and without specific proof that the person in question has the right to make the release, they are a copyvio, and the User should be blocked for serial copyright violations. ]|] 21:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::Umm, I think the fact that he has modified the external site to indicate GFDL licensing proves both things: that he has the right to release them on behalf of his org and that they are no longer copyvios (even though the notice is not quite correct). The question does remain whether we want the material or not. I'll leave that for someone else to decide. ] 23:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Fair Use! ==

Another for fair use. Article ] have over 40 screenshots for illustrative purposes, all claiming fair use, yet nowhere are the images or the situations depicted being discussed themselves. This fails ], and also counterxamples apply:
::''An image of a Barry Bonds baseball card, to illustrate the article on Barry Bonds. A sports card image is a legitimate fair use if it is used only to illustrate the article (or an article section) whose topic is the card itself; see the Billy Ripken article.''
Now, could someone else take a look? I've been reverted and the 40 or so screenshots have been reinserted. Maybe I was wrong, but if not, could someone explain ] the fair use concept? -- <small> ]</small> 18:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:This seems to be another of those "I'm going to put a screenshot for every item in a list" cases, which are often a ridiculous amount of work to resolve. ] 18:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::It's image-cruft at best, but more to the point, it is probably a FU problem. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 18:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:::] has resolved a lot of these cases, and can probably point to precedent. ] 19:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::I agree, that is too many iamges, they need to go (except for the lead). ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 19:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not getting involved in to the issue as I?ve been a priori disqualified to do it ;) From my talk :
:''See your talk. I did it sinc ethey didn't fulfill Fair use criteria for their insertion. -- Drini 18:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::''I would disagree since I know otherwise, but I'm not going to argue otherwise because I think your going to be one of those Wikipedians you can't argue with. It doesn't matter, we've solved the problem. (...) Angel Emfrbl 19:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== TerriNunn = NerriTunn ==
(See also ], ].}

She has returned under the name NerriTunn, and it personally attacking me , and . Please, please, could an admin do something. ] (Have a nice day!) 17:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:Those personal attacks amount to nothing less than trolling. Block and harsh words required. ] 18:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::I issued a single warning to her to knock it off. If she persists, I'll indef-block, but since the last block was for ], I want to give her one chance to straighten up and fly right. | ] <small>]</small> 19:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::LOL, that username seems to have just a ''bit'' of ] to it, no? ]<sup>]|]</sup> 19:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== User Stealthusa is uploading copyrighted images ==

] has uploaded a host of copyrighted images. He has been warned about using these images on his talk page(http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Stealthusa), yet he has either decided to ignore these warnings or does not understand them; he has now removed the image warning and placed incorrect licensing tags on the images. Please note his contributions: http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Stealthusa ] 19:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:I've left a . ] 19:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::And right after that, he uploaded another copyrighted image. I've blocked him for 24h with a stern warning to knock if off. The fact that, rather than acknowledging his confusion, he left an indignant note on your talk page indicates to me that we're not getting through to him. | ] <small>]</small> 22:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Tag vandalism by ] ==

{{user|Irpen}} has repeatedly removed tags regarding images which might not meet Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. In June 2006 ] was subject to a RfC regarding the improper removal of notice tags (]), however he has continued doing with this behaviour: (there are more diffs, but since the images have been deleted they are not visible: ).

Regarding the latest incident, ] was cautioned by an administrator ] who wrote: "''This was not the proper way to handle that situation, and you know it. If you dispute the replaceability, add the disputed tag on the page and explain why (I have done this for the image in question). Please don't do this again.''" on ]'s talk page (). ] has demonstrated a lack of willingness to observe Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines and work together with others, for instance the heading written by ] on ] was changed from "''Please don't do this''" to "''unexplained RFU tag''" ().

Usually vandalism results in blocks, with the length being increased each time. --] 21:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:The issue at hand is illustrated by the ] thread above. Unlike other users, the user above uses the image tag as a harassment tool. While overall image patrolling is a useful practice, user:Oden simply picks on users who had unrelated disagreements with him and digs through those user's entire upload history in order to harass them with tagging the images. The user also refuses to explain the tags at the talk page, a simple courtesy he was asked multiple times. I welcome more attention to the issue. --] 21:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::There does indeed seem to be some strange behaviour going on here perhaps an admin needs to investigate this seriously ] 21:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::The same user who started that thread also started ]. --] 22:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

If this section is a suggestion that Irpen should be blocked, I strongly disagree. He has not continued removing tags since I asked him to stop, and blocking good contributors is a last resort. I do not think that the actions of any party in this disagreement require administrative intervention. --]<sup>]</sup> 22:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:I am concerned that ] seems to demonstrate an attitude that he is above Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. This thread should serve as a last warning, a user who has flouted the rules for five months should not be allowed to continue.

:I have seen good contributions in this user's logs (which I have reviewed), however his interpersonal skills leave much to be desired. He also seems to harbour the view that any review of his contributions constitutes stalking, while any disagreement is a form of trolling. On November 30, 2006 ] wrote "''This is what I've seen of Irpen. Insults, edit wars, and hostility''" (). It pretty much sums it up so far. --] 22:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::Quadell's statement is an accurate assessment of Irpen's behavior with regard to the recent fair use debates, but I do not think that blocking would be a productive action at this point. --]<sup>]</sup> 23:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Unless WP:3RR or other policy has been violated, all parties should try to discuss the issues on relevant talk pages. Edit warring in the articles is annoying, but 'it takes two to tango', and as long as it's under 3RR it's not very serious. I tentativly support the non-delete tag till the consensus is reached, simply since undeleting image is more difficult then deleting it :) --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 23:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

==] repeatedly inserting ]==
Someone please either severely warn or block ] about his repeated insertion of ] into ], ], ], ] and various other articles for over a month now. I have went through {{tl|test4}} with him a couple of times now and he is only editing about every 3-4 days, so it's pretty slow-paced. I'm tired of warning this user with nothing happening to him for blatant abuse of policy. ''semper fi'' — ] 22:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:Looking through his contribs, I see plenty of legitimate edits. Can you provide diffs that show vandalism or OR insertion? | ] <small>]</small> 22:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::I hardly call removing protection tags, references tags and inserting ] about the ] and changing legit facts constructive: And from reading his talk page, he has been trying to insert this since '''June''' and has been violating ] every since. ''semper fi'' — ] 22:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::That doesn't remotely look like OR to me. It's either a tiny edit war, or it's vandalism, but it's not OR. The only warnings issued to him since August came from you, which makes this less compelling to me. Can you explain to us non-wrestling fans what exactly the issue is? Those diffs don't make it clear to me. | ] <small>]</small> 22:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Sorry, I forgot not everyone watches wrestling and would understand this :) The issue is of the ] being a part of the requirements to the ]ship and ]ship. ] doesn't consider, or hasn't confirmed that the United States Championship is in fact a requirement for the Triple Crown or Grand Slam to occur. I tried e-mailing WWE, but I got no response. This issue was furthur stimulated when a wrestler made a rouge comment on WWE television about how he had completed the "grand slam of professional wrestling". Despite searching long and hard on the internet to provide sources for this statement, nothing pulled up as a reliable source. The ] is inserted into a table format in the diffs, stating the United States Championship is part of the Triple Crown and Grand Slam championship status', but that's ] because there have been no reliable sources for this claim outside that one comment on television one night, which can;t be taken seriously because of professional wrestling ]. Vlh has been inserting this claim of the United States Championship since June, and has been reverted ever since, and no, his other messages on his talk page confirm that I wasn't the only one, and no I wasn't the only one reverting this, as other editors have reverted him too. ''semper fi'' — ] 23:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] is using sockpuppets to evade a ban ==

{{vandal|Pkulkarni}} who has been handed a one-month ban for sock-puppetry continues to use strawman sockpuppets {{vandal|Shudra123}} & {{vandal|Hindushudra}}. Given that he has expressed his intentions to continue trolling , dont you guys think that he should be perma banned?

<b><font color="saffron">]</font></b><sup><b><font color="red">]</font></b></sup> 22:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

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    Disruptive editing and WP:TALKNO by User:AnonMoos

    The main issue with this editor at the moment is disruptive editing based on continuous abuse of WP:TALKNO and failure to get the point. Issues began when this editor removed 5000+ bytes of sourced material. They did it again and again and again.

    Instead of starting a discussion on the talk page of the article, the user came to my talk page to let me know of their opinion of my contributions. When I started a discussion on the talk page of the relevant article, the user edited my signature and changed the heading of the discussion I started according to their POV. When I let them know that this was highly inappropriate according to WP:TALKNO, both in that discussion and on their talk page, they responded on my talk page stating ever since the stupid Misplaced Pages Dec. 2019 encryption protocol upgrade, to able to edit or view Misplaced Pages at all from my home computer, I have to use an indirect method which involves a non-fully-Unicode-compliant tool. I couldn't even really see your signature that way, and so didn't know to try to avoid changing it, which I had never heard of. In any case, they kept reverting the content supported by the reliable source, they also kept attempting to apply their POV to the discussion heading again and again and again. I finally explained that I had sought a third opinion and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, and they went ahead and changed it again anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by إيان (talk • contribs) 15:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

    The other user in this case is User:AnonMoos? This looks like a content dispute over whether the article is on the English version of a German-Arabic dictionary or the dictionary itself. Secretlondon (talk) 15:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes the is indeed about User:AnonMoos. I see the content dispute as stemming from the fundamental conduct issue, which has manifested itself most egregiously with insisting on violating WP:TALKNO repeatedly even after I explained that I had sought a third opinion and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, after which they went ahead and changed it again anyway. إيان (talk) 16:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    The heading dispute is between a date heading, and a descriptive heading? that's not really reformulating your entry. Secretlondon (talk) 17:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    It's a conduct issue. إيان (talk) 19:58, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    But what conduct issue? TALKNO doesn't forbid changing headings. In fact the wider guideline makes it clear it's perfectly acceptable "Because threads are shared by multiple editors (regardless of how many have posted so far), no one, including the original poster, "owns" a talk page discussion or its heading. It is generally acceptable to change headings when a better heading is appropriate, e.g., one more accurately describing the content of the discussion or the issue discussed, less one-sided, more appropriate for accessibility reasons, etc. Whenever a change is likely to be controversial, avoid disputes by discussing a heading change with the editor who started the thread, if possible. It can also sometimes be appropriate to merge entire sections under one heading (often preserving the later one as a subheading) if their discussions are redundant." To be blunt, if you don't want editors changing the headings of sections you start, don't use such terrible headings. I definitely recommend you stay away from ANI since changing headings is quite common here. Nil Einne (talk) 06:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    Actually I missed the signature issue. That's far more concerning unfortunately lost IMO partly because you concentrated on silly stuff. Nil Einne (talk) 06:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    ‎إيان: I suggest you stop messing around with the section heading since it's a distraction which could easily lead to you being blocked. But if AnonMoos changes your signature again, report it and only that without silliness about section headings, mentioning that they've been warned about it before if needed. Nil Einne (talk) 06:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

    I wrote a long and detailed explanation on his user talk page as to why the date-only header is basically useless in that context, but he's still for some peculiar reason fanatically determined to keep changing it back. Frankly, I've basically run out of good-faith reasons that make any sense -- except of course, his apparently unshakable belief that he has certain talk-page "rights", which according to Misplaced Pages guidelines he does not in fact have (outside of his own personal user talk page)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

    @AnonMoos: I don't see a problem with changing the heading but why on earth did you change their signature multiple times ? That is indeed a clear violation of WP:TPOC since the signature was perfectly valid per WP:NLS. In fact your change was far worse since it changed a perfectly valid signature which would take other editors to the contributor's talk page and user page into an invalid one which lead no where. If you're using some sort of plugin which does that, it's your responsibility to manage it better so it doesn't do that ever again especially if you're going to edit talk pages where it might be common. If you're doing that intentionally, I suggest you cut it out or expect to be indeffed. Nil Einne (talk) 06:48, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    User:AnonMoos, this is not good to see. Don't rewrite or reformat other editor's signatures. There is no reason to be doing this unless you are trying to provoke the other editor. Liz 07:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    For what it's worth, AnonMoos stated earlier that the changing of the signature was a unintentional technical issue, due to his use of some "non-standard tool" in accessing the internet . This seems plausible, as similar apparently unintentional changes to non-Ascii character data have happened in edits of his before (e.g. ). But if he knew of this issue, it's rather disappointing he let it happen again some days later . Equally disappointing is the extremely aggressive rhetoric and acerbic tone with which he has been escalating this essentially harmless, good-faith content dispute from the beginning. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    I just can't fathom what tool they're using to get around the HTTPS requirement to edit Misplaced Pages securely. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    Should be impossible as it's required to even access the site in the first place according to WP:SECLakesideMiners 16:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Looking at his talk page it's been going back to at least 2011LakesideMiners 16:17, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Guys, I do not deliberately set out to modify signatures, and when it happens, I am not usually aware of doing so. As I've already explained before in several places, since the December 2019 encryption protocol upgrade (NOT 2011!), the only way I can edit (or view) Misplaced Pages at all from home is by an indirect method which is not fully Unicode-compliant. To change this, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection, which would permanently disconnect my older computer, which I still use almost every day.
    Meanwhile, this thread has been set up so I can't add a comment to it from home without affecting Unicode characters, so I was unable to reply here for 36 hours or so. If I'm silent in the future, it will be for the same reason. AnonMoos (talk) 01:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Misplaced Pages uses Unicode characters (UTF-8 encoding). Anyone who cannot edit without corrupting such characters should not edit. Johnuniq (talk) 03:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Whatever, -- I was using them perfectly fine until December 2019, and still use them perfectly fine on public WiFi, but in December 2019 a requirement was imposed that you can't access Misplaced Pages at all unless you can handle encryption algorithms and protocols that weren't introduced until the mid-2010s. I have a 2012 web browser on my home computer that handles UTF-8 just fine, but 2012 simply wasn't good enough for the Misplaced Pages developers -- you had to have software that was almost up to date as of 2019, or you would be abruptly totally cut off. If you can drag up the relevant archive of Village Pump Technical, I and others complained at the time, but our concerns were not listened to or considered in any way. The basic attitude of the developers was that if you weren't running almost up-to-date software, then screw you, and if your computer is not capable of running almost up-to-date software, then double screw you! The change was announced for January 2020, but was actually implemented in mid-December 2019, apparently because they were so eager and anxious to start excluding people. It wasn't one of Misplaced Pages's finer moments. Since that time, I have had to use an indirect method to access Misplaced Pages from my home computer, and I don't feel particularly guilty about it (other people's obnoxious behaviors in 2019 have done away with most of the guilt I might feel)... AnonMoos (talk) 20:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    ...HTTPS was created in 1994, and became an official specification in 2000, not "mid-2010s". I'm not sure what 2012 web browser you're using, but if it's not able to handle HTTPS not being able to access Misplaced Pages with it is the least of your browsing concerns, given that 85-95% of the World Wide Web defaults to it now. Also I hate to think of how many security holes your ancient computer has. I'm going to be honest: with a brower setup that old it isn't safe for you to be on the web at all, and the security hole that lets you access Misplaced Pages without using a secure connection should be fixed, because that is not working as intended and is - as mentioned - a security hole. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:18, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    You unfortunately don't know what you're talking about. New ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL METHODS have been introduced within HTTPS from time to time. I was using HTTPS perfectly happily until December 2019, when the developers arbitrarily ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. AnonMoos (talk) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    And even leaving that aside, as Johnuniq mentions - if you can't edit without corrupting Unicode characters, and by your own admission you don't know when it happens, you shouldn't be editing. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    This is probably a reference to when Misplaced Pages started requiring TLS 1.2 (because earlier versions were deprecated). Anyone who was/is still on Windows XP at that point couldn't connect any more. MrOllie (talk) 01:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm not talking about when the update happening, I'm talking about how you have known about this issue, and have been getting complainants about it since 2011and are still not taking any steps to do anything about it. What kind of internet connection would not support your PC? What on earth are you even using? Dial-Up? Because that still is supported by even Windows 10. LakesideMiners 02:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    :::Also, how did you see me saying "this has happened since 2011" as me saying that the update happened in 2011? Can you clarify. LakesideMiners 03:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    The problem didn't start in 2011, and I have no idea what you're referring to when you mention 2011. The problem started in December 2019 when the developers arbitrarily imposed new ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS... AnonMoos (talk) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Apologies. I was extremely tired when I wrote both above. I have striken the date parts. Rest of my comments still stand. LakesideMiners 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    None of this matters

    I don't care what tool this guy uses or what his excuse is. If he can't edit without screwing up people's sigs, then he must not edit. AnonMoos shouls consider himself on notice now that if one of his edits messes stuff up one more time, he'll be blocked until he can give assurance that he's come into the 21st century. EEng 18:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    That's nice -- and also totally inaccurate. I was in the 21st century, and using 2012 tools, up until December 2019, when the developers pitchforked me backwards by arbitrarily imposing HTTPS ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS which my home computer hardware is not able to run. Notice that I had no problem complying with character-set handling -- the problem is with arbitrary ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. AnonMoos (talk) 00:48, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The century imagery is irrelevant. You have been warned. EEng 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    That was six years ago, which is IMO about 3-4 years too long to keep using it as an excuse. Technology changes over time, so whatever this non-standard thing you think you need to do to edit here, it may be time to make a choice. Zaathras (talk) 00:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    As I said, to fix the problem, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection which would permanently disconnect my old computer, which I still use almost every single day. I would basically have to change my workflow and overall habits/methods of working because of an arbitrary decision by Misplaced Pages developers about encryption protocol updates. Anyway, when editing through public WiFi, I'm 100% Unicode compliant, and by exercising a little prudence, I can also avoid most problems when working from home. If I was constantly mangling Unicode right and left, there would have been a chorus of complaints long before now. But occasionally I can't anticipate a problem... AnonMoos (talk) 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    And just to say for the third time: you're out of chances. "Occassionally" is too often. Once more is too often. And if and when that happens, your attitude of entitlement displayed here will pretty much ensure an indefinite block. EEng 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Think it's time to draft up a formal proposal at this point? LakesideMiners 18:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't think that's necessary. The key isn't formally deciding the criterion for blocking (because that's obvious to everyone) but rather detecting the next incident. Best way to do that for everyone gathered here to watchlist User talk:AnonMoos. Sooner or later, futher trouble will show up there. EEng 21:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    If you have DSL or even DialUp. That still works with modern machines. LakesideMiners 01:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Heck, I am on DSL (and have been since, if I recall right, 2008). I have no idea what sort of ancient Internet connection AnonMoos is claiming to be using, but it's clearly one that was already obsolete before this change he's still up in arms about six years later was made. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Not to mention it would STILL be supported these days. It's literally right there when you click wifi/network settings in Windows 10. LakesideMiners 18:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • The response by AnonMoos to feedback about this problem is bizarre. I don't really care what the excuse or the history behind it. If you are unwilling to edit Misplaced Pages using tools that work in 2024 then you should stop editing. The behavior is completely unnecessary and it seems like you don't understand the disruption. Nemov (talk) 14:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • AnonMoos hasn't really explained in any detail what their technical limitations are. They don't have to, but we can't really give advice otherwise. If as others have suggested their computer can't negotiate TLS 1.2, I'm surprised that they're able to use any websites at all from that computer. Requiring TLS 1.2 is not controversial; Misplaced Pages wasn't doing anything unusual in dropping TLS 1.0/1.1 around that time. Mackensen (talk) 15:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Disruptive editing by User talk:185.146.112.192

    IP blocked 24 hours, and then kept digging and created an account to evade the block, which has now been indef'd. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    The User talk:185.146.112.192 is engaging in disrupte editing. Neither does this IP provide sources and is POV pushing. And this IP has been warned multiple times for this on his/her talk page.

    Moroike (talk) 20:52, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

    @Moroike: It looks like you both are edit warring on Kichik Bazar Mosque. That's not particularly helpful, so you should try to have a discussion on the article talk page as to whether you should include the Talysh language name for the article in the lead/infobox. –MJL ‐Talk‐ 20:33, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    MJL why and how did you pick out that one article over the many this IP has made recent changes to? The IP has been making disputed edits for months and has been reverted by a number of editors, not just Moroike. CMD (talk) 01:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @CMD: I am not suggesting that the IP editor isn't being disruptive, but my point is that Moroike isn't making the situation better (using the example of that one article). You can see this by looking at their last 50 contributions where they have mostly just reverted this editor without using a summary. –MJL ‐Talk‐ 18:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The IP's edits were removed a total of 13 times on the page regarding the capital city of Azerbaijan, Baku. You can't let him continue engaging in further edit wars with other users besides Moroike, can you? Nuritae331 (talk) 17:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Since this IP user won't stop and is stonewalling, either he/should be temporarily blocked, or all the pages he is POV pushing without sources, should be semi-protected, so that only registered users can edit them. Moroike (talk) 21:37, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    After he/she was blocked for 24 hours, this IP created an account as User talk:Ibish Agayev in order to evade the block and has resumed his/her POV pushing. Moroike (talk) 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User engaged in edit warring to remove disputed content prior to consensus

    There's nothing actionable in this content dispute, except perhaps trouting the original poster for failing to assume good faith and hounding friendly admins when they try to help. Longtime user User:Sxbbetyy (4.5 yrs, over 5K edits) has made several assertions based on their clear misunderstanding of social norms. In this discussion they've failed to notify the subject (they actually failed to use the subject's name in the OP), they've failed to bring any diffs, they failed to sign their post, and over and over they seem to have failed to assume good faith of their fellow editors. A number of editors including several admins have attempted to talk Sxbbetyy down. Nobody in this discussion seems to agree with Sxbbetyy on the merits, yet Sxbbetyy keeps circling back to their own personal interpretation of policy. The discussion at User talk:Sergecross73, where Sxbbetyy refuses to listen to the admin they asked, gives another example of the problem. Sxbbetyy is reminded that creating a post on ANI puts all their own behaviors up for examination. BusterD (talk) 15:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Title is pretty self explanatory. Rather than engage in the consensus building process to determine if the disputed content discussed here is problematic, this editor has instead immediately reverted the disputed content. They have been informed of the relevant policies prohibiting this behavior and how it should normally be handled (tagging the content as disputed while the discussion is ongoing) but have elected to instead engage in edit warring to keep the disputed content removed prior to any consensus on the matter. Also important to note that they wish to have the content removed entirely, but have stated that they no longer intend to participate in the consensus building discussion. So this appears to be a WP:STONEWALLING tactic to accomplish their goal of removing the content immediately without a consensus. Seeking admin help to halt this behavior and restore the content with the correct tagging.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sxbbetyy (talk • contribs) 23:36, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

    It would help if you named the editor and signed your name to figure out what you are talking about; a noticeboard only works if you give us notice about the subject and what is happening. Nate • (chatter) 23:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    The editor appears to be PerfectSoundWhatever, based on the link under the word "this" as well as this notification. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 23:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    My apology, this is my very first time making such a post. The other pages o have spoken on seemed to have signed themselves automatically. Will remember this going forward. And yes, that was the user, posted this using my phone so I didn't want to mis-spell their name, just linked instead. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    (Non-administrator comment) IMO the best practice is that in the event of a content dispute, the article should be reverted to the status quo of how the article's content appeared before the dispute started, until such a time that consensus is established to re-add it (see: WP:STATUSQUO). It seems like the beginning of the content that is in dispute was added on 18 August 2024, the dispute began a few weeks later on 23 September 2024 and has been ongoing ever since.In this case, since the article existed in a relatively steady state for several months (or even years?) previous to the disputed material being added, I think it'd be wise to leave the disputed content out of the article until the discussion comes to a close. RachelTensions (talk) 00:07, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have been seeing this opinion from a few editors and even one admin on how to interpret this article. However, the first few sentences in that section do outright state to avoid reverting the disputed content prior to a consensus. And prior to opening this report, I asked several admins on the topic and got a response that reverting the disputed content immediately is incorrect per WP:STATUSQUO as it bypasses the consensus building process. I was advised that the content should instead be tagged as disputed rather than be outright removed. The offending user was made aware of the relevant policies but has nonetheless engaging in edit warring to keep it reverted, hence this report. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:13, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    The status quo of an article constitutes implicit consensus (WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS). The person trying to include disputed content in an article despite it not being status quo is the one that could be construed as attempting to bypass the consensus building process, not the person trying to maintain status quo until discussion takes place. RachelTensions (talk) 17:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Correct, and at no point was the definition of what constitutes the status quo ever in contention. In fact, if you review the edit history of the article you can see that the disputed content was the status quo via implicit consensus at the time PSW chose to first outright revert the content, and then continued to revert it as others tried to restore it (both before and after the consensus discussion began). Sxbbetyy (talk) 23:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    the disputed content was the status quo via implicit consensus at the time PSW chose to first outright revert the content
    Not really, I personally wouldn't define "been there a few weeks" as status quo.I think maybe the other replies to this thread provide pretty good reasoning to take a step back and say "hey maybe I'm the one in the wrong here" instead of talking in circles RachelTensions (talk) 00:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Personally I think the number of contributions since the edit where it has gone unchanged is a more useful metric, especially on low traffic pages such as this one. Regardless, per the policy you cite, there seems to be no official Misplaced Pages stance on what exact criteria are needed for a contribution to be considered the current status quo, beyond it having been unchallenged in subsequent contributions (which is the case here).
    As for the rest of your comment, there seems to be a high amount of band wagoning and "Proof by assertion" going on in the rest of this. Or people trying to use this report as an extension of the dispute discussion on the article's talk page. Hopefully more actual admins to chime in on the topic as I don't actually want to waste my time talking in circles.
    On that note thanks for actually taking the time and baseline minimal effort to engage in a discussion where you actually support your point and don't just devolve into repeating the same talking points over and over. It's a nice change of pace. Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I am the editor being discussed here. I'll provide a summary of events since the initial statement by Sxbbetyy is misleading.
    Myself and the editor had a content dispute at Team Seas (1) and following circular discussion, I stopped engaging since I felt I had laid out my points. Per WP:STATUSQUO, I maintained the state of the article to before the dispute. I requested for a third opinion, which was answered by @BerryForPerpetuity:, who agreed the statement should be removed, albeit for a different reason than mine. I took this 2-1 as rough consensus. I also posted the dispute on two WikiProjects, and have received no response so far. Sxbbetyy reached out to three admins about the matter, @Sergecross73, Oshwah, and Pbsouthwood:. The Sergecross73 discussion can be summarized as Sergecross believing that I haven't engaged in misconduct, and that I have presented a "plausible, good-faith interpretation of SYNTH". Sxbbetyy then accused Sergecross73 of not acting in good faith. Oshwah did not respond to the post on their talk page, but @BusterD: did, essentially agreeing that the sourcing does not back up the claim in the content dispute. Sxbbetyy received help on Pbsouthwood's talk page about responding to a content dispute. And now we're here.
    Throughout these interactions, Sxbbetyy has demonstrated a failure to assume good faith, refuses to accept that they may be wrong, and WP:BLUDGEONs talk pages, refusing to let the other editor have the last word. Frankly, this is a massive waste of editor time: it should have been a brief talk page discussion then an RfC. Apologies for all the pings. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 00:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    This summarization in itself leaves out critical context, (such as berry's concern being alleviated and them no longer expressing a desire to remove the content), the specifics of why that conversation with Serge ended the way it did despite my repeated attempts to engage with them in good faith, and the entire discussion with pbsouthwood (who quite definitively explained that the behavior PSW was engaged in was not correct). So I urge all involved to go read those topics to get the correct context through your own eyes and then discuss any concerns from what you see here. That being the case, it seems pretty clear cut imo. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Just to be clear, in no way did I express that I didn't want the content to be removed. I did not receive a notification for your reply, and I wouldn't have engaged either way. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 17:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, I would leave that material out of the article. Whilst it may not exactly be synthesis per se, it is certainly editorialising ("the removal of that amount of marine debris is of negligible consequence...") unless there is an actual source that says this by making a link between between the two statistics (the amount of waste removed by Team Seas and the rate at which waste is entering the ecosystem). And even then, I would say that such an edit would need to say something like "However, ARandomNewspaper pointed out that ...". Black Kite (talk) 00:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    That is actually no longer the content that is being disputed. If you look at the latest version that got reverted on the article you can see the current version. I had made edits to it precisely because of valid WP:NPOV concerns brought to my attention by PSW. However, their dispute with the content remains with the claim that is is synthesis rather than any other concern. Which they have been thus far unable to obtain a consensus on. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    • I have some pretty serious WP:IDHT concerns about the topic starter here. They came to me for help (no idea how/why me, I have no connection to this dispute) and I repeatedly told them I didn't see any misconduct, and then they started attacking me when I refused to agree with them. And now this. This is a very simple content dispute, with a very simple no consensus means no change outcome. I've told them this. It's a disappointing time sink on a rather trivial content dispute. Sergecross73 msg me 00:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
      At no point was he "attacked". I defended myself after he became hostile with me (as anyone can read in our convo, I stated multiple times that I would leave and did not want to be a burden if they didn't want to engage with this, but he made no such objections and continued). Eventually he just became outright hostile and refused to explain their points any further, devolving the conversation into them repeating themselves over and over, its all there to read on his talk page. As for why I contacted him, I wanted to ensure I chose impartially so I just randomly looked at the currently active admins at the time and he was the first one I found. Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
      The discussion is right here, if anyone wants to look. The "attack" I'm referring to you is your accusation that I responded to you in bad faith. I was not involved in the dispute, have no stance on it, and had no pre-conceived notions about either of you - what in the world would my motivations be for "bad faith responses"? It doesn't make any sense. You simply didn't get the response you wanted, and proceeded to badger me on it. Did I get vaguely irritated when I volunteered my time to review and comment on a dispute I had no stance or interest in, only to get all sorts of sour grapes responses on it? Yeah, sure, but who wouldn't? Sergecross73 msg me 18:44, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    • I'm here from my input at the 3rd opinion request. This is nothing more than a trivial content dispute, I see no reason for this to be at ANI. I somewhat agree with the claim of synthesis, it becomes more susceptible to incorrect information, and from my analysis it seemed like the claim in the disputed content was completely wrong. Two different sources, from two different time periods. My $0.02: The claim of stonewalling is ridiculous, there was ample good-faith discussion based on existing policy and guidelines. This editor does not assume good faith, it appears that he claims that editors disagreeing are acting in bad faith. From him to administrator Sergecross73: "I'm not wasting time engaging with you if you aren't going to speak with me in good faith." It seems that he roots his argument based on the editor who removed it rather than the content itself. Very unfortunate waste of time. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 15:31, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
      Exactly. It's not "stonewalling" that's happening here. PerfectSoundWhatever has discussed at-length at the talk page. They're simply not willing to talk circles indefinitely. And we don't require that of editors. I've urged Sxbbetyy to, rather that spin their wheels arguing with the same person endlessly in a stalemate, to try to get other participants to take part. But they've refused, and instead decided to move their arguing to ANI instead. As I noted to them in one of my last comments to them, if they spent half as much effort in consensus-building as they did complaining and arguing, they could have built a consensus by now... Sergecross73 msg me 17:30, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
      Reading any of what I wrote in this dispute shows clearly that is not the case. Also, the quoted sentence is completely taken out of context.
      Here is what was said in the mesaage before that they left out, "Not really the logical conclusion one draws from reading any of what I wrote here, where I asked multiple times for you to explain your reasoning in your replies (instead your response was to repeat yourself without offering further explanation), but if that is what you want to take away from this that's fine by me. I'm not wasting time engaging with you if you aren't going to speak with me in good faith."
      The message as a whole was replying to was a passive aggressive insult that didn't progress that conversation, hence the response as it was clearly not an example of engagement in good faith.Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Also, it looks like the participants in the dispute on the Team Seas article are acting as if this report is an extension of that dispute discussion.
    This is a report of edit warring to revert disputed content prior to a consensus being reached (there was no consensus prior to the reversion and there still is no consensus, as admitted by PSW themselves in that very dispute and In their latest revert message, no idea why now in this report they are trying to claim that there is suddenly consensus for removal).
    This is not a report on the dispute itself, just to make that very clear since those involved are responding as if it is. Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    You've still got this backward. You need to show a consensus to keep your content in the article, as everyone else has been telling you. WP:ONUS is directly on point, and I'll quote it here: The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. MrOllie (talk) 18:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Thank you. I have tried to inform them of this many times and many ways. I do not know why they cannot wrap their head around the concept. Conceptually, it would be very problematic if we were required to retain every disputed content until consensus ruled it out. It wouldn't be workable. Sergecross73 msg me 19:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Nobody is arguing WP:ONUS here...not in the dispute and not here in this report. The point is that the content is being removed prior to there being a consensus on if it should be removed.
    I was directly advised by admin Pbsouthwood that the removal of disputed content BEFORE any consensus has been reached is not allowed (save for specific situations, none of which apply to the disputed content) as this bypasses the consensus building process. Here is the talk page where I was advised this. This is echoed with the wording in WP:STONEWALLING and WP:STATUSQUO. Here is the direct quote from the latter, "To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the status quo ante bellum during a dispute discussion. Instead, add an appropriate tag indicating the text is disputed. For an article, many of the inline dispute tags are appropriate. For other pages, is good. Leave the status quo and the tag in place until the discussion concludes." Sxbbetyy (talk) 19:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    The point is that the content is being removed prior to there being a consensus on if it should be removed. <--- No. This is your problem. What you are saying here is incorrect. Policies say the opposite of this. You are not going to get support at ANI. In fact, the longer you keep going with this WP:IDHT insistence that community practice is actually the opposite of what policies plainly say it is, the more likely it is you're going to find yourself blocked for disruption. Pbsouthwood didn't tell you this either (what he wrote doesn't match what you've been doing), and your initial question did not properly represent the situation at hand. But we can invite him here to see if he actually supports what you're doing here: @Pbsouthwood:, what say you? MrOllie (talk) 20:06, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    This entire comment serves absolutely zero purpose whatsoever. You're parroting what others have already said with no supporting evidence. Along with throwing in an oddly included threat that is completely nonsensical and wholly unwarranted.
    And while I could point out the myriad of ways your claim about what Pbsouthwood said was inaccurate, that would pretty much involve reposting his reply, which is a waste since anyone can already go to his talk page and read it themselves.
    So at this point, if you need that admin to come here and tell you what they already said themselves, more power to you. Would save us all a ton of time to get an authoritative answer on this, especially with another admin holding the opposite view point, in spite of the specific policy wording. Sxbbetyy (talk) 23:08, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    No matter how much you insist otherwise, there does not need to be an established consensus for the removal of content. Drop the stick. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm not the one insisting otherwise...this report only exists because an admin told me otherwise. And as I've posted in my previous replies, the wording in the policies clearly support that. Makes me question how many have actually bothered to really read these policies... Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    The other admin told you nothing about the removal of WP:SYNTH, which is always appropriate. Back away from the dead horse. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:19, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    1. This report is not an extension of the dispute discussion for that article, if you want to involve yourself in that discussion, do so there, do not hijack this report.
    2. The disputed content is plainly not WP:SYNTH as I explain on the talk page in great length, with nobody thus far having provided valid examples as to how it is.
    3. If you are going to make the claim that any WP:SYNTH concerns warrant immediate reversion without consensus, please feel free to share the quote in the relevant policy that says this. I have not found any such wording and instead found that what is present matches up with what PBsouthwood informed me.
    Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Come on, how many people need to tell you you're wrong? Sergecross73 msg me 02:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    At this point I say that my advice was given without a specific context, and without prejudice. I maintain that it is more collegial and polite to discuss a removal of unsourced but plausible content before removing it, as it can often avoid disputes of this kind, but it is not forbidden to arbitrarily delete content that an editor plausibly considers inappropriate provided the relevant reason is given. It is always the responsibility of the person advocating inclusion to provide a reference when challenged, regardless of the process of challenge.
    Some forms of synthesis are acceptable. If a conclusion is logically inevitable based on undisputed factual premises, or is a simple mathematical calculation, we routinely accept claims that may not be specifically stated in a source, but we may require the logic to be explained, as it may not be obvious to the reader.
    At the risk of being hoist with my own petard, I also refer readers to WP:Don't be a dick (looks like that essay has been expunged, try Meta:Don't be a jerk). · · · Peter Southwood : 06:59, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I think many of us used to the mess editors adding unsourced content can create would strongly oppose leaving in unsourced content just because it's plausible. The standard should instead be at a minimum that you believe the claim made is most likely correct and sourceable not simply that it's plausible. Although ultimately such discussions are a little silly anyway. If editors would just add sources rather than leaving it for someone else because they're claiming it's unlikely to be challenged or whatever, there would be a need for others to decide whether to query or remove unsourced content. Nil Einne (talk) 09:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I was suggesting tagging with citation needed while you wait a reasonable time for a response, but as we know some of us do not have the patience and just revert. It in not unheard of to know something, but not have a source handy at the time. What is obvious to one may be totally obscure to others. This is acceptable within policy and guidelines. You could start a RfC to have the guidelines changed, but I suspect it would not get through as being a bit bitey. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood : 12:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, what you say is true, that's absolutely an acceptable approach. But that's not really the problem at hand here. The bigger issue is that Sxbbetyy appears to be believe that the alternative approach - reverting per STATUSQUO or NOCONSENSUS - is somehow misconduct, and that's simply not true. They're not arguing about if your approach is valid, they're arguing that its compulsory, and they're attempting to report a user for not following your possible approach, which is completely meritless. Sergecross73 msg me 17:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Please do not put words in my mouth. The only reason this report exists is because Peter Southwood advised that this was how I should proceed if the editor participating in this no-consensus reverting continued to do so and was unreceptive to further discussion. (Both are true by admission of PSW themselves). Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, I've seen that discussion, but you presented the situation to them entirely in hypotheticals that lacks crucial context. You frame PSW as unwilling to engage in discussion but omit the fact that PSW did engage in extensive discussion already. You accuse PSW of edit warring to keep their information in the article, but omit the fact that you're equally guilty of edit warring, as you're responsible for every single counter-revert in the situation. I would think the near-unanimous rejection of this ANI report would indicate that this was not, in fact, a good thing to report. Best case scenario, this is archived with no action, but I'd be shocked if it didn't result in a WP:BOOMERANG. Sergecross73 msg me 18:44, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't know why you are attempting to present the entire discussion on that talk page as some sort of proof that PSW was willing to engage in further discussion to halt the behavior this report is about. At no point whatsoever did PSW ever indicate anything like that; if they did this report wouldn't exist as the discussions on your talk page or Peter Southwood's page would have never needed to happen. Not to mention if you take the time to actually read the discussion, you see that most of it is on the specifics of the validity of the WP:SYNTH claim made by PSW, eventually culminating in PSW actually asserting that they will not stop change their position on this and then outright refusing to engage any further.
    And now you accuse me of edit warring by citing the entire recent edit history of the page...this isn't fooling anyone who actually bothers to read any of the revert messages and examine the timeline of when they occurred (talk about omitting "crucial context").
    Beyond just slandering my character, I don't really see what these kind of spurious claims accomplish. It wastes everyone's time, makes yourself look biased and hostile, and adds nothing to the conversation. Keep things civil please, I really shouldn't have to tell you of all people that basic expectation. Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Wait...are you seriously trying to suggest that, even though you were the only one who reverted him every single time, he was edit warring and you weren't? Sergecross73 msg me 02:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    If you are going to continue to twist words and make false claims immediately after being asked to keep things civil, maybe it would be best for all involved if you just moved on from this conversation. Sad that even has to be stated at this point, it should be a given. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yet another IDHT response where you try to baselessly chastize me rather than address anything anyone is saying to you. Sergecross73 msg me 18:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    What a choice to post this exact type reply to my last message... not to mention the sheer absurdity of it. To claim that I've never addressed anyone's points in my replies is so easily and visibly wrong (literally this entire topic is full of my detailed replies to people's concerns, including this very reply) that it's almost insulting to the rest of the people participating in this or to anyone who even chooses to read that message. It's as if you think nobody can see the rest of this discussion (or even the comments directly above it). Sxbbetyy (talk) 11:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Thank you for taking the time to respond and my apology for any inconvenience it may have caused. Ive tried to keep it as civil as possible, but there seems to be a very hostile air in this discussion by those with the dissenting opinion. As for how this situation is to be resolved, would it be appropriate to restore the currently disputed content with the appropriate tags (as it is sourced and was the statusquo on the page at the time of reversion)? Or is there something further that must be done here? I'm generally unfamiliar with how ANIs actually function. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Have you considered starting an WP:RFC? The fact is that you made a WP:BOLD addition to the article; someone else objected to it, which means you now ought to seek consensus for your addition. As numerous people have told you, none of the relevant policies and guidelines (WP:ONUS, WP:BRD, WP:QUO, etc) would allow you to make a recent addition the "default" the way you want, but more generally - the problem is that you're trying to dig through policy for something that will make your preferred version the default, allowing you to have it in the article without having to demonstrate consensus for it even in the face of challenges. Even if the policies and guidelines I listed were on your side this would still be a bad way to approach it. You have a conflict, your goal should be to resolve it by making consensus as clear as possible - figuring out what the crux of the dispute is and then, if you can't reach a compromise, holding an RFC to see where consensus lies. Also, I have to point out that just by a quick nose count of people who have weighed in on talk, I'm seeing a dispute that is now three-to-one against you. That is a consensus - not a massive one, maybe an RFC will pull in a bunch of people that say something else, but it doesn't make sense for you to keep demanding a consensus to remove something you added when there actually is such a consensus on talk. You've disagreed with their arguments but they're not obliged to WP:SATISFY you; ultimately if you think your arguments are so strong and theirs are so weak, the only real option for you at this point is to start an RFC and hope that you can demonstrate that there. --Aquillion (talk) 04:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    As mentioned earlier in the discussion, this report is not an extension of the dispute on that article, nor is that what this report is about. Also, a RFC was already started for the topic about a week or so ago by PSW, but that occurred after he reverted the status quo, disputed content with discussion (repeatedly). As for the rest of your comment, Peter Southwood, an admin, has addressed what is the actual expectation. Sxbbetyy (talk) 18:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    What? I never started an RfC. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 19:07, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I just checked and on 12/9/24 at Serge's talk page you said the following, "Thanks – just wanted to mention I requested comments from WP Internet Culture and WP YouTube about 2 weeks ago."
    Did that not actually happen? Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:11, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    WP:RFC is a specific process. Asking questions on a couple of Wikiprojects is not an RFC. MrOllie (talk) 02:22, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    That's fundamentally not what an RFC is. This is getting ridiculous... Sergecross73 msg me 03:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    It's almost like this is the very first time I've ever been involved in this kind of issue on Misplaced Pages before...seriously these kind of replies come off as rude and don't actually say anything meaningful or helpful. Ever since our conversation on your talk page you have made next to no real effort to engage in good faith and I find that highly disappointing to be coming from an admin. And my apology if I offended you at all at some point or if you have just "lost your patience" with me, but I don't see how that gives you the green flag to suddenly disregard WP:Civility. I certainly haven't, in spite of being on the receiving end of this. Sxbbetyy (talk) 17:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    I haven't said anything uncivil, I just keep calling you out when you say something incorrect. Sergecross73 msg me 18:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Cunningham's Law, is a powerful force, I find it difficult to resist myself. MrOllie (talk) 18:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    Request for closure

    Despite its large size, the consensus here is quite clear. There's no misconduct here, just standard following of procedures of WP:STATUSQUO and WP:NOCONSENSUS, which is perfectly acceptable. Not a single person has suggested taking any action towards PerfectSoundWhatver. Outside of a a potential IDHT BOOMERANG, there's nothing left to be done here. Can someone close this? Sergecross73 msg me 14:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    I second that. If there has been any edit-warring by any party that should be dealt with in the normal way. PerfectSoundWhatever has certainly done nothing wrong, and the OP will get blocked if they don't start listening to people pretty quickly. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Exactly. And even that's probably unlikely, as most of the "edit warring" was singular reverts with days or weeks in between. It's far from a 3RR situation at least. Sergecross73 msg me 15:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    (Non-administrator comment) I don't think this conversation is going anywhere fast, other than seemingly coming to the conclusion that @PerfectSoundWhatever has done nothing wrong, which seems to be the opposite of what this ANI post was about. There's no edit warring here, and even if there was, it wouldn't be dealt with at this venue. Shut it down! RachelTensions (talk) 16:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    In what way whatsoever is this editor's decision to revert the disputed content during the discussion "standard following of procedures of WP:STATUSQUO"? The literal first words that appear at that link are in bold and say, "Avoid reverting during discussion", followed by a detailed explanation of the actual proper procedure. And to make it very clear what it says, here is the literal first paragraph verbatim: "To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the status quo ante bellum during a dispute discussion. Instead, add an appropriate tag indicating the text is disputed. For an article, many of the inline dispute tags are appropriate. For other pages, {{under discussion inline}} is good. Leave the status quo and the tag in place until the discussion concludes." Sxbbetyy (talk) 02:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    In what way is that your read of the consensus in the discussion above? Sergecross73 msg me 02:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    In what world do you logically come to that conclusion from a message that consist of almost entirely the word for word quote of the procedures described in WP:STATUSQUO, that directly counters the claim you just made? Are you saying it is "against consensus" simply because it presents a viewpoint you don't like and don't want to address? I don't see another reason why you would again twist my words, to the point of lunacy. And this is, once again, despite the fact that all of what has been said is literally within view.
    Also, regarding the consensus. Out of everyone that has actually joined the discussion and all the messages sent (~90% of which are either from myself or you Serge), there have been only three people who have actually said anything in support of your interpretation of this. The rest either did not discuss the topic, did not express an opinion, or were Peter Southwood who supported the interpretation of WP:STATUSQUO as stated on its page. Seems like you're just trying to rush a end to the conversation to get the conclusion you want. Sxbbetyy (talk) 15:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm saying there has been no consensus for anything you're arguing here. Not a single person has supported action against PSW. Sergecross73 msg me 15:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The status quo ante bellum that shouldn't be reverted from is the version without the new content. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Creating the need to make 400,000 unnecessary edits

    Can we please dp something about editors who make unnecessary changes to widely-used modules, and then need to change 400,000 talk pages to get the same result we had before the change? Thanks to this change from last week, which removed the parameter "living" from the bannershell, we now have more than 400,000 pages in Category:Pages using WikiProject banner shell with unknown parameters. After the "cleanup" by User:Tom.Reding (and perhaps others), we will have the exact same result as we had last week, no new functionality, no new categories, no improvement at all, but a lot of flooded watchlists.

    I tried to get him to stop at User talk:Tom.Reding#Cosmetic edits, to no avail. This isn't the first time, as you can see from that discussion. Fram (talk) 14:57, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

    If you want to discuss {{WikiProject banner shell}}, you should do so at Template talk:WikiProject banner shell.
    As for the size of the category, I have no plans to empty it, and was only going to update a few hundred more categories and templates.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  15:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    You made nearly 2000 of such edits in the last few hours, and when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries. I have no way to know how many more you planned now or in future runs. Starting a discussion at the module would hardly stop you. Fram (talk) 15:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    "when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries": incorrect. Since you wrongly thought I was making cosmetic edits, i.e. "no change in output or categories", the category was to inform you that they are not cosmetic.
    Regarding a BRFA for the bulk of the category, that's looking more likely since the category appears to be neglected.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  15:29, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Unnecessary removing a synonym and then making thousands of edits to remove the hidden cat created by that unnecessary change is not really any better than making cosmetic edits, the end result is that nothing has changed for the affected pages at all. Fram (talk) 15:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Not unnecessary. The Lua code is very complex and removing the need the support various settings makes the code both easier to read and maintain. As always, editors that don't want to see these edits can hide these by hiding the tag "talk banner shell conversion". Gonnym (talk) 12:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    It doesn´t look as if the specific code to have these synonyms was very complicated though, the argument that in some cases two synonyms were used on one page with conflicting values was more convincing. And the edits I complained about did not have that tag, so no, even if people knew about hiding that tag, it wouldn't have helped here at all. Fram (talk) 16:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    This was discussed in detail on Template talk:WikiProject banner shell. Ideally these edits would be done by an approved bot so they do not appear on people's watchlists. The main benefit is to merge the |blp= and |living= parameters. When both are in use, we find they often get conflicting values because one gets updated and the other does not. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Isn't it more logical to first have a bot cleanup the unwanted parameter, then remove it from the template, and only then start populating the cat with the somehow remaining or since added instances? In any case, this is a typical bot task and shouldn't be done with massive AWB runs. Fram (talk) 17:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, probably. But we have this mechanism already set up and I assumed Cewbot would deal with these as part of its normal activities. Happy to look at other options - maybe discuss on template talk? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't know what this is about, but if the OP is correct, it is totally absurd to edit 400,000 talk pages for a tweak. Discussing at a template talk page monitored by those focused on the template would simply hide the issue. Johnuniq (talk) 03:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Edits like these should always be bots, so they can be filtered from watchlists. There are numerous other editors who have recently engaged in the mass additional of categories to articles which I had to ask them to stop as my watchlist was flooded. GiantSnowman 13:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Meanwhile, the category has grown to over 800,000 pages. Perhaps next time an RfC to determine whether creating such a large cleanup task is warranted, would be better? Fram (talk) 16:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:Augmented Seventh

    User:Augmented Seventh is making wholesale reverts of my edits in contravention to guidelines. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 19:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

    You're removing demographic categories and templates by blanking them out; irreligion still deals with religion no matter your argument. That's definitely not compliant with WP:CAT and clearly vandalism. There's no action to take here except that you need to stop removing these categories and templates. Nate • (chatter) 19:42, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    And you are now required to cite how your edits meet WP:CAT; spamming it in edit summaries is not discussion. Nate • (chatter) 19:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    While doing routine vandal patrol, I came across what seemed to be a hasty and massive removal of content, being done in a very directed and personal manner.
    After looking at the persistent removal, and communicating, I restored the well-drawn categories.
    Hopefully, this is easily resolved.
    Augmented Seventh (talk) 20:40, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    43*, do not continue to revert these category removals without discussing them first. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    THere is nothing to discuss. The guidelines are clear. What needs to be done is editors need to be familiar with the cat guidelines. We don't discuss whether the sky is blue do we? 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    THey are not well drawn, it was not hasty, it was not massive, and it was not "personal". It was directed because they all had the same issue. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:07, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Editors should not blindly revert. They should be required to understand the guideleines. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    I gave up editing because there were too many problems that the wiki communtity is not sorting out. One of them is treating anon editors as second class wikicitizens.

    Another problem is "this is how it is so we are going to leave it like this for years and years" and this is at the expense of the quality of WP.

    I can't remember the specific category guideline for the edits I did but is the undoing editors need to look it up. Categorisation is something that a lot of editor do not understand. Go and put a notice on WikkiProoject Categorisation and you will fing that there is support for my edits.

    WP could be sooo much better. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    I'm sorry, but "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone" is an indication you should be trying to do better instead of telling us we should do the same. If you're not willing to actually explain why guidelines vindicate your changes, then being right sometimes isn't enough if you want to make things better. Communication is the process, not something ancillary to it. Remsense ‥ 论 02:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    GO and read the guidelines. It does not need discussion. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:15, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Discussion is required when other editors ask you questions in good faith in order to resolve present disputes and prevent future ones. Remsense ‥ 论 02:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Bear in mind this is WP and not social media. 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    How do you get the impression that "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone". 43.249.196.179 (talk) 02:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    No. You brought this here. The WP:ONUS is on you to explain how the guidelines justify your edits, not to say "go look it up". Also How do you get the impression that "I don't remember what policy says but I'm right so leave me alone" - because that's exactly what you said. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    It's not unreasonable in many cases to link to a very specific passage of a guideline and expect an editor to understand its meaning as regards a pertinent dispute, but you can't just fail to clearly articulate your argument while also insisting it's vindicated somewhere within the full text of a guideline. Remsense ‥ 论 02:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Content dispute. Bold edits were reverted; next step is discussion, probably at WT:CAT. If there is dispute over interpretation of the guideline you can consider leaving a pointer at WP:VPP. If there are any categories that shouldn't be used at all that can be discussed at WP:CFD. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 03:31, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    The content dispute could have been discussed on any of the talk pages. Yet it was brought here first. Conyo14 (talk) 06:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    When a content dispute involves several pages it is often though not always best to centralize discussion. Misunderstanding ANIs purpose and bringing content disputes here is a common and understandable error; best just to point people at appropriate WP:DR when that happens. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 06:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    Not overly impressed by 43's comments above. But do wish to note that their removal of Category:Corruption from at least one BLP appears to have been correct. The subsequent reversion of that removal is misfortune. Rotary Engine 08:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:ZanderAlbatraz1145 Civility and Content #2

    This user has engaged in a lengthy display of disruption. Namely through incessant incivility I have noticed they were previously reported for.

    Instances such as ordering IP editors to stop editing articles, hostilely chastising them, making personal attacks in edit summary on several occasions, etc. Users such as @Waxworker: and @Jon698: can speak to their experiences, I'll outline mine.

    On December 10, I noticed on the article Luca Guadagnino's unrealized projects page several additions were made that didn't adhere to the article's purpose. Zander restored these with an introductory summary rife with bad faith assertions about my intelligence and asserting they'd engage in edit war behavior. For the most part there was an attempt to discuss the issue we had, but ultimately did not see eye to eye. I asserted I'd be escalating the issue to garner more substantive dialogue around it, Zander's response includes a needless "bite me". I made some attempts at engaging the topic at the article's talk page, in addition to WikiProject Film, it was over a week that saw no input. I would go on to state that (at the time) in two days, I would restore the page to it's status quo. I would do so, asking it not to be reverted. Zander reverted anyway, and after another terse interaction, I moved to nominate the article for deletion, finding with the conflicting views of what Unrealized meant, it was too open ended and led to these lists being essentially trivia. Since then, Zander has elected to take an antagonistic approach towards me, making swipes they openly admit add nothing to the discussion threads they're added to, and now that I am putting said comments behind collapsable tables for being offtopic, Zander is now doing the editing equivalent of mockingly repeating me, with edits such as this and this.

    This editor displays no interest in conducting themselves cordially or cooperatively on this website. Rusted AutoParts 23:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

    I've given them a warning for canvassing: - The Bushranger One ping only 04:08, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    And more personal attacks here - The Bushranger One ping only 05:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    And they appear to be continuing editing while ignoring here. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    SPA User:Tikitorch2 back at it on Martin Kulldorff

    Hi, all, I'd like some assistance with the SPA User:Tikitorch2, who's been POV pushing on the Martin Kulldorff article since June. A quick view of their extremely short edit history shows that their sole focus is on pushing a vaccine-denialist POV on that and similar COVID-related topics. Started out on the talk page and BLPN, but now they've graduated to edit-warring on the article itself; they were active in June, made a single related edit in October, but now they appear to be back at it. They've already been notified about the CTOP status of COVID-19, and have received an edit-warring warning--to which they were less than receptive. Would appreciate a more permanent resolution, either a COVID-19 topic ban or just an indef considering their SPA status, so they don't just go back into hibernation and then turn up again like a bad penny. (And yeah, given this context, I don't love the implications of the username "Tikitorch2", either.) Thanks, Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 05:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:Michael.C.Wright? 173.22.12.194 (talk) 06:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
     Looks like a duck to me. I'm sending this to SPI. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    SPI says unrelated, so might just be generic disruption. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    What are you implying with regard to my username? My edit history has been limited to trying to correct two red flags that stood out so much that I followed the citations when I was searching these scientists who were in the news for censorship. It has been enlightening learning how wikipedia selectively chooses secondary sources but discourages the use of primary sources to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible.
    For my two attempted contributions to Misplaced Pages, the two red flags were pretty dramatic to prompt me to check out the citations--Sunetra Gupta's article implied more than 1 in 1000 people in England died from Covid in spring 2020 in an effort to discredit her, which was trivially easy to google as untrue. I corrected that without really changing the overall narrative. The article for Martin Kulldorff...I would probably not have spent time looking at the sources or realized how unscientific Kulldorff's critics were had there not been such superfluous "Wikivoice" editorializing and synthesizing suggesting Kulldorff lied in an essay to the public. Tikitorch2 (talk) 06:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Primary sources are not to be used for anything but simple facts about a subject. They absolutely are not to be used to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible because that is original research. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Not sure why you felt the need to repeat what I said. Maybe I am the sock puppeteer! Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    What I am implying is that such a username in the context of an account pushing COVID-denialist rhetoric that flies in the face of the sources and Misplaced Pages policy is not an accident. Anyway, this editor continues to be a drain of editor time and attention. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Ah an absurd, convoluted, and contrived personal attack. Assuming anyone but you knew tiki torches were present at a political event where someone was killed, why would I choose my username based on that? Tikitorches provide light, warmth, and keep the mosquitos away. I guess its not surprising an editor named writ keeper attacks the editor rather than effectively debating the subject of the edit. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Even if it was a personal attack, making one back isn't going to fly here. Knock it off. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    User:Tikitorch2, your edits are being examined at ANI. This is not a pleasant experience, I'll admit. So, it's best for you not to dig yourself into a hole. I know the instinct is to defend yourself but it doesn't help your situation to come out swinging. It's probably to your benefit to address any concerns that have been raised and say no more than that. Liz 04:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    User talk:International Space Station0

    Just officially closing this discussion as the account involved has been globally blocked. If an editor has Spore on your Watchlist and you see this occurring again, contact your local administrator. Liz 06:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    This user made 500 edits to their user page which were all completely useless (Misplaced Pages:Gaming the system to inflate their edit count) and then once receiving extended-confirmed permissions vandalized Spore (2008 video game) by copypasting another article. Their user page shows them editing and counting to 500. jolielover♥talk 04:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    It's a WP:DUCK, and I just reported to AIV. 184.152.68.190 (talk) 04:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Would it be possible to put up some kind of filter to alert for this? Something that…say…catches when more than 25 edits are made in a single space (user space for example) or something that would trip if the edits added less than 5 characters consistently? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1011:B32F:11B9:7980:86CC:720C:8B57 (talk) 05:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    There is a filter for this. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:AbuseLog&wpSearchUser=International+Space+Station0&offset=20241222044736, "New account unusual activity" covers exactly this. win8x (talk) 05:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Disruptive editor on When the Pawn...

    User User:Longislandtea has repeatedly removed reliably sourced refs to the genres infobox by removing alternative pop simply because they don't believe it to be correct as the ref is "new" and that the artist isn't that genre. I had sent them two warnings now and also explained that's not how this works, so they decided to add more genres with refs that don't even mention the genres they included. I do not believe this editor is going to cooperate. Pillowdelight (talk) 08:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:Pillowdelight changed the genre list of When the Pawn... which originally had been a variation of certain genres: Art pop, jazz rock, art rock, alternative rock, jazz pop, chamber pop, all of which are somewhat accurate and agreed upon by various editors of this page over many years. It was changed to just Alt pop, a genre that is used to describe the newer sounds of pop in the early 2010s with Lorde, Sky Ferreira and Lana del rey. It is not a genre that fits the album hence it has never before user:Pillowdelight been described as such beyond what her poor source says, a Fiona Apple revisit (that is not even about When the pawn.. specifically) from a new, small and virtually unheard of web magazine. Sources such as Rateyourmusic, allmusic and Pitchfork are far more accurate and robust and that's why this album has never been described as alt pop. That genre did not exist at the time of the release of the album. The source needs to be accurate, it is not. It's not an album review, it is a fluff article about Fiona Apple by a small web magazine. It's not even about When the pawn... specifically, it makes no sense. I think the other editors agree, it is inaccurate.
    Allmusic and pitchfork are far better sources. I have added both as sources. I didn't change the genre list, I simply changed it back to the genre list that had stood there the longest before user:Pillowdelight changed it a few months ago for the first time, having never touched this page before yet complaining about other editors. Longislandtea (talk) 18:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Longislandtea: I removed the genres because they're unsourced, which I stated in many edit summaries you keep reverting, as well as on your talk page. It doesn't matter that just because you believe a source another user added calling the album alternative pop is incorrect and unreliable because it's "new, small and virtually unheard of" is a ridiculously excuse. Read Template:Infobox album it states — genres must be stated and referenced in the body of the article; personal opinions or original research must not be included. The sources you have added specifically from Pitchfork don't state the genres you've listed. Pillowdelight (talk) 20:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Sources need to be legitimate and relevant. Your source is not relevant and it is disputed. Pitchfork is added because they describe the album as an alternative album several times in the review and the genre category is ROCK. What is alternative and rock? Alternative rock. That is how the album was marketed. You can't cherrypick a single article to make a case for a genre that the album absolutely is not in. I will remove the Pitchfork source, that's fine. There's numerous ones including from Allmusic that clearly state that it is an alternative rock album. The album was even added to Misplaced Pages's page for alt rock albums ages ago. This is very uncontroversial. Just having alternative rock is also lacking; jazz fusion, art pop (the album is already added on the wikipedia page for art pop albums) and art rock are accurate too and have been there for ages but alas! Let's get rid of it all to only serve your opinion. Numerous albums have unsourced genres might I add, but the vast of amount of editors agree to it because they know these accurately describe the album, these are the scenes that the album and artist comes from and sourcing for genres can often times be lacking. In that case, rather than trying to look for BAD sources, it's better to agree with the consensus. In our case, we do have sources. Rateyourmusic has been used as a source for adding art pop, alternative rock, jazz pop, fusion, art rock and chamber pop as genres before. Longislandtea (talk) 20:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Here's the page for what is considered acceptable sources Misplaced Pages:Acceptable sources (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs).
    Relevance. Sources must be relevant--there must be some reason for the reader to care about what the author has to say. For example, the opinion of a random individual on the presidency of George W. Bush, as published in a letter to the editor of a major newspaper, is not relevant; and thus should not be included--even though it is published, traceable to its author, and given in a reputable publication. Relevance can be imputed several ways--through explicit personal knowledge, through subject-matter authority, through general notability of the author, through demonstrable correlation with the opinion(s) of a large group of people, etc.
    A large group of people, the editors of When the Pawn...'s page throughout the years, thousands of people on music reviewing sites and numerous music journalists from legitimate publications do not agree with what this one article you cherrypicked states.
    Note that this policy is the minimum standard for inclusion as a reference in Misplaced Pages. Sources may meet this standard and still not be authoritative, reliable, accurate, free from bias, or undisputed. Sources which meet this minimum standard but which fail to meet stricter standards may be used, but should be used with caution. In particular, such sources should be explicitly attributed to their author(s) or publisher(s) in an article's prose (rather than being presented as fact with the author only given in the notes), and disputes considering the source's veracity should be described.
    Meaning you can't just add any genre because some random source says it when it goes against larger and more reliable sources as well as it is controversial.
    Thank you and please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand. Longislandtea (talk) 21:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    WP:NOTVAND. Note that accusing editors of vandalism when they are not, in fact, vandalising can be considered a personal attack, so I'd suggest you strike that comment. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Okay, I strike. Longislandtea (talk) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    You didn't actually strike any comments. To do so, do this <s>Comment</s> which will make it look like this Comment. Liz 22:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand. Longislandtea (talk) 22:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Longislandtea: How is the source considered not relevant and where was this dispute? AllMusic does not call the album alternative rock at all within its article. Rate Your Music is also not a source it's user generated which is against Misplaced Pages. I really wish an admin would comment on this because this is getting absolutely nowhere. Pillowdelight (talk) 21:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Here's another source describing it as an alternative rock and jazz fusion album
    https://www.the-solute.com/the-solute-record-club-fiona-apple-when-the-pawn/
    Alt pop is not accurate. If you're so adamant about alt pop, please argue why. It is completely inaccurate and you have one singular source over music journalists and music sites. Allmusic does categorize it as alternative rock, Pitchfork has categorized it as rock since 1999 of its release. There was NO Alt-pop at the time. It still isn't. These are different genres. Art pop is not Alt pop. You edited the page one time in October 2024 only to get rid of the genre list that editors agreed upon to add Alt pop which makes no sense whatsoever. Longislandtea (talk) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have now added a new source to the genre list. If you have any problems with the new source, tell me. But it's much more accurate this way. It's still sad to see the whole genre list that was originally there, so much more descriptive and fitting, hacked away but oh well. Longislandtea (talk) 21:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Pitchfork's categorizations mean basically nothing. They have ten categories, one of which is "Pop/R&B", and another of which is "Global". By the way, you should just stop caring about this, because sources misclassify genres of music chronically and everywhere you look. Take your passion to RateYourMusic. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    All of this discussion should be taking place on the article's talk page (which neither editor has used). Schazjmd (talk) 21:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Schazjmd: I'm awaiting for an admin to respond. This conversation is getting nowhere hence the reason why I brought it here in the first place. I've tried to explain to the user on their talk page along with this entire thread and it's getting nowhere. @The Bushranger: you left a comment but could you please share your opinion on the dispute? Or possibly ping an admin who's familiar with music if this isn't your area of familiarity? Pillowdelight (talk) 21:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    There was no reason to bring this conversation here. I talked to you directly but go no real reply or any arguments despite adding sources and explaining why it's not an Alt pop album. I've explained to you well enough. Please stop trying to get admins to ban me simply because I (and other editors) recognize that the genre list that you got rid of was far more fitting. There's a new genre list now with sources but it is not Alt-pop. The album was already added to the wikipedia album pages for Alternative rock and art pop. I'm familiar with these genres and Fiona Apple specifically to know that it's accurate hence why the genre list has been that way for years. If you're adamant about sources, there is a source. Accusing me of not sourcing should be considered a false accusation at this point. Not all sources are equal either and I've tried explaining that to you. Longislandtea (talk) 21:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Pillowdelight, you were given good advice which is to have this discussion on the article talk page which neither editor has posted at yet. This is a content dispute. If no action has been taken yet by an administrator, it's likely because they don't agree with your statement that action needs to be taken. Liz 22:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Okay, will do. Thank you Liz. Pillowdelight (talk) 22:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    Irrelevant sources and unnecessary changes to genre list on When the Pawn... (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

    On October 22 2024, User:Pillowdelight (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) changed the genre list that has stood in place for years and has been a variation of the same variety of genres: Art pop, art rock, jazz, alternative rock, jazz rock, chamber pop and jazz pop. Across the biggest music sites, this is what the album is described as. The user changed it to Alt pop using a single irrelevant and unreliable source. The album is not described as such anywhere else. The user is going against the general consensus. Sources have now been added to the genre list and I don't feel as though that would mean I'm breaking any rules. The user is threatening to get another editor banned because they're uncooperative with how us other editors feel the genre list should look like. It's an album that has been categorized as rock by Pitchfork at the time of its release and was added to rock charts when released too. Here's how the genre list has looked over a long period of time, without much controversy from editors not readers: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1178937091 from 2023

    https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1049316366 from 2021

    Thank you. Longislandtea (talk) 19:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    Why do people have to argue about what genre music is rather than just listening to it, and hopefully enjoying it? Phil Bridger (talk) 19:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    The genre list was fine and accurate and uncontroversial until this user decided to remove the entire thing. It's important that the genre list is accurate. People find albums through genres. There's other reasons as well. Longislandtea (talk) 20:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    This is neither here nor there, but I thought albums are generally sorted in alphabetical order by band name or the musician's last name.
    Please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or my information is incomplete. Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 22:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I was trying to explain the important of listing genres accurately. If you go to a record store then yes, albums are listed in alphabetical order. But they're still put in categories of genres. Longislandtea (talk) 22:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    If we were going to list musical genres "accurately," we wouldn't bother at all. Except in very broad strokes ("rock," "punk," "Baroque," etc), so many of these horribly subjective "genres" are made up by bored media writers and bands that hate the notion of being The Same As Everyone Else. Get ten people to listen to ten different tracks of heavy metal, and you won't get as many as a third of them agreeing on any of them on the doom/grudge/dark/death/Goth/Viking/sludge/*-grind/*-core/etc etc etc spectrum. Beyond that, arguing whether any given artist is "that genre" is very highly subjective. (Hell, I've sung Baroque, classical, folk, rock, ethnic, shape note, so many genres I can't readily count.) Ravenswing 15:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Multiple users breaking 3RR on Gilman School article

    Two users are actively engaged in an ongoing edit war on Gilman School, with both Counterfeit_Purses (talk · contribs · logs · block log) breaking 3RR 1, 2, 3, 4 and Statistical_Infighting (talk · contribs · logs · block log) being right at 3 Reverts 1, 2, 3.

    This seems to go back to December 9th, with the first editor (Counterfeit) removing it here and here, again on the 17th, 18th, and then being at the above today.

    Awshort (talk)

    Counterfeit Purses, please be aware that the Luigi Mangione article was kept in a recent Articles for Deletion debate, so the consensus of the community is that he is notable. Edit warring to keep his name off the alumni list is a really bad idea. Cullen328 (talk) 20:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Cullen328 No problem, I've already given up. I would argue that WP:NOTNEWS applies here, but there's no sense in pushing against the tide. If you're content to have the lede section of Gilman School include "prominent graduates including "alleged murderer Luigi Mangione", I guess that's fine. It seems to be an unusual thing to include and an obvious case of undue weight given to something that is in the news at the moment. Perhaps someone should start a Wikiproject to add famous murderers to the ledes of other schools? Counterfeit Purses (talk) 22:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Counterfeit Purses, in my view, WP:NOTNEWS is among our most misunderstood policy documents. It begins In principle, all Misplaced Pages articles should contain up-to-date information. Editors are also encouraged to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events. I believe that Mangione is notable, the evolving article is acceptable, and his name belongs in the alumni list. Many, many "bad people" are listed as alumni in countless school articles, and it is not at all unusual. The only unusual thing here is that the lead of this particular school article lists alumni, and so I have removed them from the lead. Cullen328 (talk) 01:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm glad that misunderstanding WP:NOTNEWS is so common because I am going to continue to misunderstand it. I see that Liz removed Luigi Mangione from the lede before you removed the rest of the list. Acknowledging again that I have given up hope that Mangione will be removed from this article, let me ask you what you think the purpose of these alumni lists is? Including Mangione is an editorial decision. We don't include all notable alumni in these lists, so why should we include Mangione, and why now? It's too soon to know if he will have lasting relevance. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 04:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    We don't include all notable alumni in these lists Why not? If someone is Wikinotable and went to a Wikinotable school, then they belong in the "Notable alumni" section of that school's page, Q.E.D. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    @The Bushranger I'm not saying "we shouldn't", I'm saying "we don't". We don't include every notable alumnus in these lists, nor should we because it would lead to long, unhelpful lists stuck in the middle of articles about the schools. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 04:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    If an alumni list bloats an article, it can be split out. See Category:Lists of people by school affiliation. 11:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC) (Oops, signing) Narky Blert (talk) 16:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Of course that's always an option, but what I am saying is that it isn't desirable to have every alumnus listed in an article for a school. Ideally, it would be a selection of alumni who have made significant achievements in their field. Otherwise, it's just trivia. Am I wrong? Counterfeit Purses (talk) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes. You're making a value judgment that some alumni (with articles, else they most definitely should not be included) are more notable than others. That is WP:OR. Narky Blert (talk) 20:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, that's called editorial judgment. Just like deciding not to include every known fact about something in an article. At some point, it is just trivia. Misplaced Pages is not a database. That info would probably be welcome over on Wikidata, which is a database. Alternatively, someone could just add Category:Gilman School alumni (in this case). Counterfeit Purses (talk) 20:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    And a new user, who doesn't understand categories and has no idea Wikidata exists, is relying on the list on the page. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Vandal encounter

    This IP seems to be a vandal who seems to be ready to start an edit war. I have reverted their disruptive edits, and they have begun to add them back.

    diffs:

    I would have put this at AIV, but I have no clue how to edit source. Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 23:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

     Not done - Not an admin - I hate to be that person but unfortunately you've not sufficiently warned them, They've only received one warning and their edits aren't gross vandalism so this would only be declined by an admin anyway, If they continue I'll report them to AIV, Thanks, –Davey2010 23:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Ah, I see. Thank you! This has been noted for the future. Thank you, again! Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 23:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    You're welcome, Happy editing, Thanks, –Davey2010 23:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:Glenn103

    Glenn103 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been mass creating unsourced stubs about Cyrillic letters, most of which have been draftified. They've also disruptively edited in the past, such as: ''']''' (talk • contribs) 01:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Most of these pages don't even make any sense (eg.: Draft:Yery with tilde). The user also ignores any notice about his articles being moved to draftspace by simply recreating duplicates of them (eg.: Draft:Tse with caron & Tse with caron). Immediate action may be needed. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 07:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Given a uw-create4im with directions to come here, let's see what happens. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    They've continued editing, this time adding infoboxes to the articles, so I don't think the warning worked... ''']''' (talk • contribs) 08:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have blocked them from article space and page moves, and will leave note on talk page to come here. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 15:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Honestly, this almost feels like trolling. Their basic procedure seems to be: pick a random Cyrillic letter. Combine it with a random diacritic. Write a short stub on the combination, saying effectively "this letter combination is not used anywhere." The occasional historical mentions ("this combination was used in such-and-such obscure Siberian language") are completely unsourced, of course. (Everything is unsourced.) Oddwood (talk) 04:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Excuse me for detracting from the report, but this was your 4th edit, your last edit was in January 2016... how have you found yourself here of all places?
    I mean you might have a point, but wow. – 2804:F1...57:88CF (::/32) (talk) 04:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Similar behavior to PickleMan500 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) and other socks puppeted by Abrown1019 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki), which also made tons of drafts on Cyrillic characters that cited few sources (and none with in-depth coverage). Most drafts have been WP:G5'd, of course, so only those with admin perms can verify the deleted contribs. Since these socks have been banned (WP:3X), I haven't notified them of this discussion. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 17:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    North Korean involvement in Russian-Ukraine war discussion

    The inclusion of North Korea as a belligerent in the infobox for the "Russian invasion of Ukraine" article has been a point of extensive and protracted discussion since September. A formal Request for Comment (RfC) on this matter ran for several weeks and was closed with a clear consensus to include North Korea as a combatant based on reliable sources and expert analysis. However, despite the closure, the discussion has continued unabated across multiple threads, with certain editors repeatedly rehashing resolved points and questioning the validity of reliable sources, leading to significant disruption.

    Key Points:

    1. Prolonged Discussions and RfC Closure:
      • The RfC on North Korea's inclusion was conducted thoroughly, with a wide range of arguments presented by both sides.
      • The closing administrator, S Marshall, determined there was a clear consensus to include North Korea as a belligerent based on reliable sources and the strength of arguments.
      • The close explicitly allowed for reevaluation if new battlefield events or sources emerged, but no substantial new evidence has invalidated the prior consensus.
    2. Ongoing Disruption:
      • Despite the RfC's resolution, the same arguments are being repeated across multiple threads, often by the same editors.
      • This behavior includes undermining reliable sources, misrepresenting their content, and insisting on a higher standard of verification (e.g., requiring firsthand evidence of North Korean combat, which is unreasonable given the context).
    3. Reliable Sources Confirming North Korean Involvement:
      • Multiple reputable outlets, including the BBC, Reuters, and Pentagon statements, confirm North Korean military involvement and casualties in the conflict.
      • Experts from institutions like Chatham House and RUSI have explicitly stated North Korea's role in combat, aligning with the community's decision.
    4. Impact on the Community:
      • The continued disruption consumes editor time and resources, detracting from the article's improvement.
      • These actions disregard Misplaced Pages's consensus-building principles and guidelines for resolving disputes. This dispute has been ongoing for months, with multiple threads being opened and closed on the same topic.

    Request for Administrative Action:

    I respectfully request that administrators address the following issues:

    1. Enforce the consensus reached in the closed RfC, as no new evidence significantly alters the previous conclusions.
    2. Discourage editors from rehashing resolved discussions, particularly when arguments have been repeatedly addressed and dismissed.
    3. Consider imposing a topic ban or other appropriate measures on editors who persist in disrupting the article with repetitive or bad-faith arguments.

    This matter has been discussed exhaustively, and it is essential to prioritize Misplaced Pages's goals of maintaining a high-quality, well-sourced, and consensus-driven encyclopedia. Thank you for your attention to this matter. UPDATE: I just noticed that North Korea was removed as a belligerent and added to the 'supported by' section, completely violating the consensus. Rc2barrington (talk) 08:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Since this report isn't really about an incident and your request is directed towards admins, I think this complaint would be better placed at WP:AN rather than ANI. It will also need more specifics, which articles, which edits, which editors. You'll need to provide that. I also question whether or not these are content standards that the community can't handle on their own. Liz 09:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I was going to post it at WP:AN but it said: "This noticeboard is for issues affecting administrators generally – announcements, notifications, information, and other matters of general administrator interest.
    If your post is about a specific problem you have (a dispute, user, help request, or other narrow issue needing an administrator), you should post it at the Administrators' noticeboard for incidents (ANI) instead. Thank you."
    I posted it on ANI beecause my specific problem was this dispute Rc2barrington (talk) 12:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The original post in this thread appears to resemble LLM output. GPTzero confirms this impression, rating text as "99% probability AI generated". Using AI to generate ANI submissions is highly inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 18:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Even when a message appears to be AI-generated, I think it is worth considering whether or not it is pointing out an actual problem. I think editors might be ignoring the results of an RFC, I just don't think asking for administrators to monitor a subject area, without identifying specific articles, is a feasible solution. It does seem like, possibly, a point that could come up in a complaint at AE regarding the Ukraine CTOP area. Liz 19:55, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I had a peek and it's a messy RfC and, as is generally the case with a messy RfC had a very involved closure message which seems to reflect that the closer felt constrained by the framing of the RfC. I didn't see any immediate indication in the edit history that anyone had tried to implement the RfC result and been rebuffed (although I might have missed it). So there's some smoke here but, I think, not a ton of fire. Simonm223 (talk) 20:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Liz, I don't disagree but I'm not at all convinced that use of AI is a positive contribution to CTOP areas. Axad12 (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    It was written with AI assistance. Not all AI. ai detectors aren’t considered reliable, because you can put the U.S. constitution through one and it says 100% AI generated. Regardless, whether it’s AI or not has nothing to do with the topic. It’s just that there’a been so many discussions and when I checked the info box it said ‘supported by”, violating the consensus of the RFC Rc2barrington (talk) 12:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I think the underlying issue here is that if you use AI to generate text which looks like obvious AI output then readers will wonder "does the end user even have sufficient English to understand what the AI has generated for them?" and "did the end user understand the material prior to deciding to employ AI?". Thus if a user is fluent in English, as you obviously are, it will always be better to communicate in your own voice.
    At the end of the day, a user making a valid point in their own voice is generally speaking going to be taken more seriously than a user employing LLM output.
    There are plenty of other reasons for users not to employ AI (see the recent thread here for extensive coverage) but the argument above seems like a good practical reason for fluent English speakers to always prefer using their own voice.
    You will see from the recent thread that many users here are vehemently against AI use. Axad12 (talk) 15:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I understood the material very well, its not like I just used 100% AI out of nowhere. I know the context. I have been involved in this discussion since September. Rc2barrington (talk) 16:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    It's a respect thing. It's disrespectful of other editors to make them read chatbot output rather than your words. Simonm223 (talk) 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Rc2barrington's user page says This user believes in the bright future AI and robotics will bring, so there's probably no point in arguing here. However, I simply observe that in any kind of discussion where you're trying to convince other people, don't use a method that aggravates a significant number of readers (probably a significant majority of readers). It really is that simple. Axad12 (talk) 19:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Concern About a New Contributor

    Suspected editor was indeed a sock. Unnecessary drama created by all-too zealous reporting--let this be the end of it. Drmies (talk) 21:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Kriji Sehamati (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Dear Wikipedians,

    I hope you’re doing well. I wanted to inform you about a new contributor @Kriji Sehamati, despite lacking experience, has repeatedly attempted to vandalize multiple articles. These articles were properly aligned with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines and reviewed by experienced contributors, but he/she seemed unwilling to understand or respect their adherence to the policies.

    I believe your experience could help address this situation effectively.

    Looking forward to your advice on how to proceed.

    Thankyou! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 15:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    "Vandalize" is a very loaded word here with a specific meaning. As far as I can tell, what they've done is nominate 4 articles for deletion, and your response has been to accuse them of vandalism, ignoring dispute resolution procedures and making personal attacks – none of which I can see at a glance through their contributions.
    Perhaps if you supplied evidence of this behaviour, someone would be able to help? If your issue is that they've nominated 4 articles of which you are a major contributor and are doing so by going through your contributions in order to find articles to nominate for deletion with specious reasons, then this board would be the place to come. If not, then making your arguments for keeping the articles on the AfDs in question would be your best bet.
    By the way is forum shopping. Stop that. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    (ec) This is an odd one. As S-Aura failed to provide diffs, I looked at Kriji Sehamati's contribution history. New account (9 Dec) began editing today, created two drafts and made a bunch of edits to those. Then began adding COI tags to articles S-Aura wrote, nominated those articles for deletion, and then left a possible UPE template on S-Aura's talk page. Really seems to be something weird going on here between those two. (In addition to opening this ANI thread, S-Aura asked for help with basically the same message on the talk pages of Ipigott, Ryan shell, CFA, and BusterD, and S-Aura opened same complaint at AN.) Schazjmd (talk) 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I am concerned that User:Kriji_Sehamati’s actions, including unjustified deletion nominations and spamming, are disruptive and violate Misplaced Pages’s guidelines.
    She seems to lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related WP:GNG and WP:NPOL. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 16:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    You were asked to provide diffs. You did, almost, here but then reverted yourself. Those diffs (well, the ones before those diffs) are just the other user nominating articles for deletion (which is allowed) or tagging them for what they believe to be conflict of interest edits (which is also allowed).
    Please provide some actual evidence that the other user is engaging in chronic, intractable behaviour, rather than just not editing how you would like them to. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Here are some diffs highlighting her problematic edits. However, I believe that many of her contributions may be in violation of Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. It appears she has specifically targeted me and added the COI tag multiple times to the same page. I would appreciate it if you could review her actions more thoroughly:
    •
    •
    •
    •
    and many more
    Thankyou! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 17:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    We wouldn't generally treat an AfD as vandalism. Simonm223 (talk) 17:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I understand your point about AfDs not generally being treated as vandalism. However, I noticed that the major contribution history of the user seems suspicious. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 17:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Not from where anybody else is standing so far. I get that you're upset to have four articles of yours nominated for deletion, and if you have any evidence at all that you are being deliberately targeted by the other editor, then people will very much act on that. Please provide it. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 17:58, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I am here to contribute and edit articles in accordance with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. However, today a new user targeted me and falsely blamed me for actions that are not accurate. I believe this is unfair and not in line with the collaborative nature of the platform. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Please provide evidence of this. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 18:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Please check! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The articles that have been nominated for deletion discussion have been reviewed by experienced contributors. These discussions involve articles about judges and lawyers, under WP:NPOL, a valid criterion according to Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. Therefore, the deletion decision was made after carefully reviewing these articles. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Honestly it looks like this user, rightly or wrongly, believes you have a conflict of interest and are acting on the basis of that assumption. I would suggest, if you don't have a CoI, talking to them about this and maybe asking why they've come to this conclusion. Simonm223 (talk) 18:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    They have just started targeting my contributions, and I tried to inform her about the situation. However, she is acting as if she knows everything about Misplaced Pages and is dismissing my concerns. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Kriji Sehamati: hasn't edited since their AfD spree earlier today, let's wait and see what their response here is when they return to editing. Schazjmd (talk) 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    • We need to stop focusing on the OP's calling this vandalism; it is not. I've changed the header to reflect that. That said, the new user's edits are problematic and merit scrutiny. As for the UPE stuff, I've removed that post from the OP's Talk page; it's nonsensical coming from a new user and does not merit a response.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    • It is, of course, not vandalism to nominate articles for AFD discussions as long as a legitimate deletion rationale is provided and the article hasn't just been discussed at a recent AFD. However, I don't think it's a good sign when a brand new editor claims to understand all of Misplaced Pages policies and whose first actions are to nominate articles at AFDs. They are almost never an actual new editor, especially when they know how to even set up an AFD or are familiar with using Twinkle on their first day of editing. Liz 19:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
      It seems that she is not new to Misplaced Pages and might be operating multiple accounts. It appears she has an issue with one of my contributions, as she created her account just 15 days ago, yet she already has a good understanding of tools like Twinkle and AfD procedures. This level of familiarity suggests prior experience on the platform. I am now requesting her account to be blocked as I am completely disturbed by her repeated allegations and disruptive behavior. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 11:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I am now genuinely confused—if all my contributions are not good, then why am I even here? Were the experienced editors who reviewed and approved these pages also mistaken? A newcomer, who joined just recently, is now disrupting and questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors. This situation is deeply discouraging. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 11:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Please resolve this situation—either block her for her disruptive behavior. How can i continue working under such constant targeting and stress ? 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 12:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      User:S-Aura, you seem to be making unsupported personal attacks against User:Kriji Sehamati. You should provide specific evidence of wrongdoing, including diffs, or your arguments here will fall on deaf ears (and bring consequences for you). Meanwhile, as a filer on ANI, you have brought all your own edits to close scrutiny by the community. You may have to face that smart people disagree, and this is how we sort disagreements out on English Misplaced Pages. You are not required to edit, but we encourage you to do so. Nobody is going to block Kriji Sehamati at this point, because you've given us no reason to do so. BusterD (talk) 12:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Meanwhile, in the last few minutes S-Aura has disruptively created a second thread about this exact issue on this same board, which was reverted by another editor. This is intentional disruption. BusterD (talk) 12:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      As to the question "Why am I here?", poets and artists have been trying to answer this question for eons. Epistemology is outside the scope of this board, but there are articles about it. Show up to edit if you want to, but expect disagreement from time to time. (That's actually a sound answer to any epistemology question as well.) BusterD (talk) 12:16, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Dear @BusterD,
      It means I have been proven wrong, and that user’s contributions have been more focused on me, which is quite insufficient to catch someone’s lie that she is pretending to be new, when in fact she is old.
      Also, I am not against AfD; I am simply expressing my opinion. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:12, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Could you please rephrase your point here? I don't understand. While it's okay to be suspicious that this editor is somehow socking or doing something else deceptive due to the familiarity, it seems unacceptable to deliberately accuse them of such repeatedly without firmer evidence. Remsense ‥ 论 13:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Dear @Remsense,
      I am not engaged in paid activities on Misplaced Pages, and she claimed that I am connected with the subject, who is a judge, lawyer, etc. You all should understand that this is not a trivial matter; justice is a very respected position. Making such allegations can escalate court cases. I would like to remind you of the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI case. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      One thing you need to understand immediately is you should never make another post that sounds vaguely like a legal threat, as you've just done above. Seriously. That intonation is seriously not helping us decide who's right or wrong here. Remsense ‥ 论 13:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Okay! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I will caution you that this is tiptoeing right up to the edge of WP:NLT and you'd be advised to avoid making legal threats. Simonm223 (talk) 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Dear @Simonm223,
      I am merely showing that she can potentially do something inappropriate. I am following the guidelines and not making any legal threats. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Accusing another editor of potentially making legal threats is not much better, when there is no concrete evidence that they would do so. Being interested in articles about judges does not suffice. Remsense ‥ 论 13:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      The page of Justice Subramonium Prasad, who had conducted over the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI court hearing, was also created by me. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      State plainly what the implication you are making here is, because what I'm hearing is "I'm familiar with people who have hit Misplaced Pages with a mallet in court before, and I can make sure it happens again". Remsense ‥ 论 13:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      This is becoming a rabbit hole. I urge you not to pursue the rabbit further. BusterD (talk) 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Good call, I'll retract the above. Remsense ‥ 论 13:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      No, that is not what I am implying. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      No one has said your contributions are not good. However, it should be noted that a draft being accepted at AfC or a new page having been patrolled does not guarantee greater scrutiny would not result in a valid AfD nomination. That said, echoing others here it's clear something problematic is up with this user's behavior. Remsense ‥ 论 12:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      You can't both criticize someone for lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related WP:GNG and WP:NPOL, and then argue that she is too familiar with the platform to be a newcomer for knowing how to file an AfD. I wouldn't be surprised if most people here knew how to file an AfD before knowing all 14 notability guidelines by heart. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      There are detailed instructions on filing an AfD that can be found by googling "how can I get a Misplaced Pages page deleted" - if somebody had some personal reason for wanting to have pages removed it doesn't strain credibility to think that's why they created a WP account and that they just followed the very clear instructions on the appropriate pages.
      In fact that might explain why some of the AfD filings were reasonable and some were, on their face, incorrectly filed. If you looked up the AfD process but not criteria that is the likely outcome. That's why I find the "new user files AfDs must be a sock" idea here somewhat uncompelling. Simonm223 (talk) 13:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • I believe we're entering boomerang territory at this point. Opinions? BusterD (talk) 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I think OP is upset that a cluster of their articles were put up at AfD. This in itself is understandable, but while there's reason to think there might be mischief by Kriji Sehamati, we don't have any real evidence of it. We either need the OP to make it clearer what misconduct, if any, has occurred, or they need to drop the stick. Remsense ‥ 论 13:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      The OP has been intentionally disruptive (by creating a new ANI thread which was reverted), and this thread is going nowhere. IMHO, there's nothing ANI can do here. Everything I'm reading about should be resolved at the page talk and user talk level, in my opinion. The AfDs are underway. If dispute resolution is needed, fine. Nobody is harming S-Aura. S-Aura can't come crying to ANI (or four random user talk pages like mine) anytime someone merely disagrees with them. BusterD (talk) 14:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I'd have said close with trout for all if not for creating the second thread at AN/I. Based on that I'd say the OP should be formally cautioned against such antics in the future. Simonm223 (talk) 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I should have added that I largely hold with Remsense in their position. BusterD (talk) 14:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      User:Kriji Sehamati‬ is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages, but we don’t have any evidence because understanding Misplaced Pages’s AfD process so quickly can be a bit challenging. I have no problem with AfD regarding my contributions, and it’s a good thing that experienced contributors are giving their feedback. If you believe that the kriji is 100% correct and her activity is not suspicious, then this discussion should be closed. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 14:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      You need to stop insisting this is definitely the case if you don't have any evidence for it, period. Remsense ‥ 论 14:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      S-Aura, how did you make the determination User:Kriji Sehamati‬ is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages? Please share your process. That's a personal attack, and requires proof to prevent you from being in violation of WP:NOPERSONALATTACKS. I've looked at the AfDs and they seem reasonable to me. When you've provided strong sources the article is being kept. So far the jury is out on the others. Both of you seem to be writing articles about obscure living persons who wouldn't normally (by my cursory reading) have a Misplaced Pages article about them because reliable sourcing is not readily found. When I see that, I must suspect COI or undeclared unpaid editing here, but nobody's admitting to it. BusterD (talk) 15:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      S-Aura's continuing to issue personal attacks makes it more difficult for us to just close this (without some form of consequence for the editor making unproven personal attacks after they've been warned repeatedly). BusterD (talk) 15:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I have made a level-four user talk page warning for the personal attack. FYI. We've been very nice about this up 'til now, but we need to stop being so kind. Doing foolish things has real world consequences. BusterD (talk) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Both editors' apparent use of AI is certainly disruptive. If it continues, it should lead to blocks. C F A 15:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      No personal hate intended, but I just found this and thought it would be worth checking. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      It would be nice if you could explain the significance for those who do not speak Hausa. Remsense ‥ 论 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      She had made contributions to pages in other languages a few months ago. I am attaching her contributions link. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 16:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      How does this constitute evidence of sockpuppetry if we aren't to know what exactly happened? There's a reason we don't just automatically block anybody who is blocked on another language wiki, and I looked through the edits some and didn't find anything outrageous that made it past the language barrier. Remsense ‥ 论 17:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I agree that it’s important to ensure we have solid evidence before making conclusions. I appreciate your perspective on not automatically blocking users based on blocks from other language wikis. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 17:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Please don't reply to me or others using ChatGPT. It is flat-out rude. Remsense ‥ 论 17:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Support BOOMERANG - I've been uninvoled and have mainly just been watching the back-and-forths, but the personal attacks and VESTED mindset, such as "questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors", concerns me. Not sure for how long, but I don't think anything longer than a months is appropriate given the circumstances. EF 15:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • This whole thread, but especially the 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC) comment, feels like the OP is just throwing literally everything at the wall to see what sticks. But, worse, what is being thrown at the wall lacks any significant body of evidence to support. I note that a personal attack warning has been given for the continued unfounded accusations being presented, which I think is a good move. I don't support a block at this point, although if I was the OP I would withdraw this complaint and/or drop the stick and walk away from this topic as a matter of urgency to avoid continuing to make the situation worse. Daniel (talk) 17:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Darkwarriorblake making aspersions

    The OP says they don't care any more which I'm reading as a withdrawal and the other party says they won't be responding again so I'm closing this discussion. My only comment is that both editors in this dispute should have brought this to the article talk page to talk this disagreement out. I don't know if the differences would be resolved but this is what we advise editors to do when their edits are reverted. Now I just have to get that scene in the movie out of my mind. Liz 05:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Postscript: Ah, someone just close this, I don't care any more.  — Hex • talk 22:56, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    I'm posting here after a particularly underwhelming interaction with an editor in the form of edit summaries. I'll need to provide the context of a brief content dispute which hopefully won't take too long and then get to the point. I'm not asking for anyone to take my side in the dispute.

    Trading Places is a widely acclaimed comedy film from 1983, which is also widely acknowledged to have problematic elements by modern standards, including a scene in which the villain of the piece, stuck in a gorilla costume, is locked in a cage with a real gorilla, which is implied to sexually penetrate him without his consent.

    The article states that G. Gordon Liddy demurred being cast in the role upon finding that out. The citation for this claim is a listicle on Indiewire, which contains the sentence

    Reportedly, Liddy was on board until he got to the part where Beeks becomes a gorilla’s mate.

    Reportedly by whom is not mentioned, let alone is there a direct quotation from Liddy. Plus as can be seen the words "becomes a gorilla's mate" are linked to a very poor quality, hand-held video of the scene in question playing on a television. This alone should be enough to raise serious questions about the use of this "source" in a featured article.

    The content dispute began when I changed it like this (diff) with the comment Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs:

    −Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla.+Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks is raped by a gorilla.

    This was reverted (diff) by Darkwarriorblake with the comment not what the source says.

    After thinking about it a moment I came to the conclusion described above about the quality of the source, and decided that it was better out than in, which is what I should have done in the first place.(diff)

    −...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks. Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla. Paul Gleason took the role;...+...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks with Paul Gleason eventually taking the role;...

    My accompanying comment was (a) That was the source's voice, not Liddy's. It's called a euphemism. Demonstrable by how it links to a clip of the scene in which a man is raped by a gorilla. (b) Source says "reportedly" for this claim, without evidence. Poor quality source. Removing claim

    That was reverted by Darkwarriorblake (diff) with the comment Nothing wrong with Indiewire as a source, if there is I'd raise it at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. Until then, there's a talk page for you to use per WP:BRD. Your comments sound agenda driven and therefore not Neutral.

    This is where the reason for me to raise this at this board begins, because that's solidly an example of casting aspersions. It came on top of a revert which reintroduced a claim cited to a rumor in a blog post into a featured article, but that's really not my concern, because if the champions of the featured article process have decided that it's somehow acceptable for our "best" content then I'm just going to move on to something else rather than argue.

    There's one final back and forth which was enough to motivate me to post here. First, I reverted that revert (, my only time using the actual "Undo" button today), with this comment: a good source doesn't say "reportedly" (ie, spread a rumor), it specifies the origin of a fact. My only "agenda" is with a crap listicle being used as a reference, regardless of who published it. Take it to talk if you want to argue for the continued inclusion of a trash ref in a featured article, or source the claim properly yourself.

    This was reverted - again - by Darkwarriorblake (diff) with the comment How are you an admin? "rape played for laughs" is an agenda, this went through FA as is so WP:STATUSQUO and WP:BRD apply. You must go to the talk page, not I. I don't know if you're going through a bad time or something but this isn't how an admin should be acting or communicating with others, up to and including WP:EDITWARRING

    At this point it's gone firmly into the realm of knee-jerk reversions, because if Darkwarriorblake took the time to read the article which they've reverting changes to for years (is this ownership? Kind of feels that way), they would get down to the critical reassessment section. Which says "some critics have praised the film while highlighting elements that they believe aged poorly, including racial language, the use of blackface, and the implied rape of Beeks by a gorilla", cited to articles in four major publications. Or, you know, even search Google for "Trading Places gorilla rape".

    So anyhow regardless of whether the Indiewire source is deemed suitable or not, I'm just wondering what the feeling here is about someone making goofy assertions on the record that another editor has "an agenda" (what agenda could it be?) and may not be emotionally stable, which really doesn't feel like assuming good faith at all.  — Hex • talk 20:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Hrrm, this seems a bit excessive.
    • I've added a second source for the claim. Really this should've been the first option rather than removing the content.
    • The first summary was, as stated, "Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs". "Rape played for laughs" is a loaded comment and not something said in the article or the source text, so it's a personal opinion, it's not neutral, it's agenda-driven.
    • When this was reverted, the editor just removed the content entirely claiming IndieWire was unreliable. There is, as far as I'm aware, nothing wrong with Indiewire. I've since found a second source, the Telegraph, which is reliable per Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources.
    • The editor ignored WP: BRD when raised, and as an admin they should adhere to policy.
    • The editor states that they are an admin on their page. Assuming this is true, the aggressiveness of their edits, hyper focus on the single area, and use of words like "crap listicle" seemed out of line with what I, personally, would expect from an admin on Misplaced Pages, certainly someone who has been so for nearly two decades. Perhaps the edit summary wasn't the place to have that discussion but, as stated, they weren't adhering to WP: BRD to start a discussion, and in the interim the article needed putting back to the status quo.
    • I find accusations of OWNERSHIP often tend to come when people don't get their way. Which is fine. I have plenty of reversions on the page for people adding unsourced content and there are plenty of changes as well. I find someone removing sourced content and me putting the sourced content back to not really be something you can fling ownership at.
    • Within the context of the film, Beeks does become the romantic partner of the gorilla, it seemed more appropriate and encylcopedic text than just saying 'rape', and neither source I've added says that either.
    • Anyways, my edit history shows I'm a massive contributor and helper and it's nearly Xmas, and I don't feel like engaging with this any further, good luck Hex. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Of course you don't, having ignored the actual matter of your conduct that I'm raising here. Your comments about the content of the article are irrelevant.  — Hex • talk 20:43, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Hex's position is not wholly supported, although in the entire issue, their toolset is irrelevant. There was no incivility on either part, and an all-out edit war seems to have been averted.Fundamentally the change Hex wanted to make was pure OR; rape may have been intimated—or, as Hex themself admits, implied—but its never overtly stated and is a wholly loaded term. This is the interpretation of an editor, not of secondary sources. If there is a pron=blem with Indywire as a source—currently used in 1000s of articles—take it to WP:RSN. If it's disputed that it's a high quality source per WP:FA?, then take it to WT:FAC. Accusations of OWNership are as unhelpful—and as much an aspersion—as accusations of agenda-led editing. In fact, for OWNership, Hex should read the relevant policy: here, it is WP:FAOWN, which not only allows for careful stewardship of featured material, but requires significant changes to the consensus version to be discussed on talk; I don't suppose there's any suggestion that introducing rape—particularly "played for laughs"—wouldn't be a significant addition.Really though, this is an overblown content dispute which should have started with one revert each, and ended on the talk page. --SerialNumber54129 21:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
      "Never overtly stated... 'played for laughs' be a significant addition" - here's an interview with John Landis, the director.

      One of the executives was deeply appalled by a man being sexually molested by a gorilla. And I said you know, it's a joke and it goes by very quickly. But the first preview was very successful and it all went away.

      Feel free to amend the article on that basis. I'm certainly not interested in spending any more time on it.  — Hex • talk 22:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Followup

    I just want to say that, now that we've had an ANI thread on the subjeect of Gordon Liddy's feelings about portraying the romantic partner of a gorilla, I can die happy.

    While we're on the subject, our article on Liddy recites that Prior to his departure from the FBI in 1962, Liddy sought admission to various bars. I'm curious to know whether this is meant to imply that Liddy had a drinking problem, and whether this could have had any bearing on the whole gorilla romantic partner situation. EEng

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User Stationmanagerskidrow removing information on Radio Skid Row page

    User:Stationmanagerskidrow is repeatedly removing information about a recent incident involving a Jewish DJ at their station. They say that it is incorrect information, even though it is sourced. The name also states clearly that this is a company account. Lastly, they have continued this behavior even after being warned on their talk page. Pyramids09 (talk) 03:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    User is now editing using User:159.196.168.116 Pyramids09 (talk) 03:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This is a content dispute and the article is being actively edited by many different editors. However, no discussion about the disagreements has occurred on the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. Liz 04:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    That article probably should be speedied as an A7 for not containing any assertions of notability; which obscures that Stationmanagerskidrow appears to have been edit warring on it with an undisclosed COI, and presumably was WP:LOUTSOCKing as this IP, and if so violated 3RR as well. It's probably best for me not to take administrative action here tonight as I won't be around later/tomorrow to deal with any followups, but something should be done here beyond just saying "take it to the talk page." ⇒SWATJester 06:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The page was longer, but sourced (all but?) soley to the station's site and it's been trimmed down to what it is now. Given the repeated edit-warring by IPs I've semi-protected the page for two days for now. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    WP:USERNAME and WP:COI message added here. I'm just about to make myself thoroughly WP:INVOLVED by seeing what I can do about the Radio Skid Row article. Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 09:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Insults

    I'd like to report an incident related to this discussion. A person under IP already accused me of being "obsessed". Now someone (possibly the same person) suggests that I may need psychiatric help. Please also see this comment. I guess we can always agree to disagree with other people, but this is going a bit too far. Thank you. Psychloppos (talk) 09:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Hello, Psychloppos. What action are you seeking to happen here? Liz 09:42, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have no idea which actions are warranted here. Maybe an admin could leave a message to this IP and this registered user and remind them that they should assume good faith ? It would also be nice to remind them about Misplaced Pages:Civility and Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. Saying that I am "fuelled by an unhealthy obsession" or questioning my sanity do not seem to respect those guidelines. Psychloppos (talk) 09:52, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Nlkyair012 and LLM chatbots

    This editor has been constantly using AI chatbots to respond and write messages. They are a single purpose account for glorifying the Kamaria Ahir caste using unreliable WP:RAJ era sources, I and several other experienced editors have taken time and effort to respond to their endless queries and WP:SEALIONING generated using ChatGPT. They have posted AI generated walls of text on multiple noticeboards such as WP:RSN and WP:DRN and including here , accusing me of vandalism.

    Despite my repeated requests and even a final warning to them (including a request by @ActivelyDisinterested:) they are still continuing to do it. Their messages are repeating the same argument again and again and are frankly just hallucinations that bring up fictitious guidelines or misrepresent the existing ones. Several editors have told them that Raj era sources are not reliable yet they continue to ask for more evidence on why that is the case based on AI generated claims of supposed academic value or neutrality. This is getting very disruptive and taking up valuable contributor time to respond to their endless AI responses which take a few seconds to generate. I have alerted them about WP:GSCASTE and WP:ARBIPA, I would appreciate it if someone could enforce a restriction on this user from at minimum caste area. - Ratnahastin (talk) 13:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Hello @Ratnahastin,
    To start with I should admit that I am sorry for all the inconvenience that I may have caused as a result of my actions. It was never my intention to take people’s time or skew the conversation in a certain way. I appreciate the core idea to contribute the thoughts to the Wiki and share it borne in mind the overall rules and policies of this program.
    I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site. Even when I was using AI for the grammar check or, for instance, to elaborate on some point in the text, I saw to my mismanagement that over the process we probably confused the readers and repeated the same information and thoughts, which I would never wish to happen again. From now on I will ensure that in the future the input which I provide to wikipedia fits the Misplaced Pages standard and is more personal. I will also not write walls of text and will not make assertations that do not have substantiated evidence in sources.
    As for subjects that concern the Raj and the sources from this period and the discussions we have had it seems that I have gone too far in demanding clarification for the same thing. That being the case, with the understanding that the consensus will be acknowledged, I shall not be inclined to reopen this discussion unless new substantiated evidence is produced. I don’t want to prolong the conversation or bring any more stress.
    I will strive to learn from my experience to be more productive in my interactions going forward. If there are other limitations or additional rules to which I have to stick to, I will receive them with pleasure.
    In the same respect, let me specially apologize for the inconvenience and thank all of you for bearing with us. That was why I wanted to remind all of us that we can and should keep collectively improving Misplaced Pages as a resource. Nlkyair012 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This comment also has a typical LLM feel and contains meaningless statements such as "I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site" and differs substantially from your usual (non-AI) writing style, although GPTzero said this is human input. - Ratnahastin (talk) 13:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    It seems human in that it contains some composition and grammar errors that I don’t think an LLM would produce. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 13:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Thanks for the reply sir, I can't explain how frustrated I'm feeling from this morning which this user made me experience Nlkyair012 14:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The time when I messaged Vikram banafar I was casual not formal and second of all your saying doesn't prove anything "and differs substantially from your usual (non-AI) writing style" that's a straight up false accusation and utter nonsensical point and 3rd point being that GPTzero stated that this is a human input then that's an human input end of the question. Nlkyair012 14:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    No it's really not the end of the story if GPTZero says "likely human". In fact I'd actively discourage people depending on tools like GPTZero in favour of their human senses which are better at detecting LLM outputs than yet another computer program. And, frankly, what you're hearing from people here is we'd rather your casual, human, flaws-and-all style of writing over ChatGPT output "formal" report templates. They are doing the opposite of what you're looking for and have become disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 14:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Man you still wanna do this? @Zanahary also says this doesn't seems AI generated to him and he used his actual "Human senses" to lean that way Nlkyair012 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Admitting that you have used AI for writing your comments and then saying that you have not used AI is not going to help your case. - Ratnahastin (talk) 14:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    You know what I think this is getting to the WP:NOTHERE point. Having to tell somebody to have the basic respect of other editors to not subject them to text-walls of chatGPT garbage over and over again is a disruptive distraction from what we should all be doing. Simonm223 (talk) 14:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This ain't getting anywhere Nlkyair012 14:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I really don't understand the problem. Cuz I literally also said many where that yes I used AI but for expanding and grammar correction Nlkyair012 14:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    If this combative approach is your "casual" style, perhaps your use of AI and its over the top politeness was an attempt to mask it. In any case, I think you are not here for building an encyclopaedia but for caste glorification given your obsession with a certain sub-caste. - Ratnahastin (talk) 14:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    im not obsessed with a certain subcaste but am sure is obsessed with British Raj sources. Nlkyair012 14:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't think that's better. Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 15:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    If we just temporarily put aside the AI-generated comments, can Nlkyair012 accept the view of experienced editors on Raj era sources and not push any viewpoint on a particulary caste? Because, to be honest, editors who have done this in the past usually end up indefinitely blocked. There is a low tolderance here for "caste warriors". Liz 19:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Potential vandal trying to start edit war on the page for Frisch's.

    Page protected, and now this admin is flashing back to his youth going to Frisch's Big Boy in Tampa. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    This user keeps using IP addresses in order to revert creditable information about who makes their tartar sauce. Please look into this user. IP Addresses used were 67.80.16.30, 66.117.211.82, and 216.24.107.180. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JrStudios The Wikipedian (talk • contribs) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Courtesy link Frisch's. Knitsey (talk) 17:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This sounds a lot like the same edit warrer I dealt with on Redbox, down to the false accusations of vandalism, removal of sourced information, and apparent use of proxies (all the IPs geolocate to different places). I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same person. I've asked RFPP to intervene. wizzito | say hello! 21:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    NVM, checked MaxMind for geolocation and they all are in the same general area. wizzito | say hello! 21:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User:Nadeem asghar khan inaccurate edit summaries

    All but 2 of user's edit summaries are "Fixed Typo" when they are in fact partially updating statistical information on the page. Have left multiple messages/warnings on TP, with no response. Spike 'em (talk) 16:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Lil Dicky Semi-Protection

    WP:RFPP is thataway →. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Lil Dicky was semi-protected back in 2019. Now that five years have passed, could the semi-protection be lifted? 174.93.89.27 (talk) 16:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Ask at WP:RFPP EvergreenFir (talk) 16:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Request for Review of Neutrality and Repeated Actions

    This complaint has no merit and does not require administrative intervention.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Dear admin, I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to express my concern regarding Psycholoppos, who has repeatedly applied the neutrality dispute tag to content related to Randa Kassis. Despite previous clarifications, these actions suggest a potential bias, which could undermine the objectivity and integrity of the platform.

    I kindly request that you review this matter and take appropriate steps to ensure that all users adhere to neutrality standards. If possible, I would also appreciate guidance on how to address such situations constructively in the future.

    Thank you for your attention to this issue. Please feel free to reach out if further clarification is needed. Hazar HS (talk) 17:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    @Hazar Sam, whether the NPOV tag is needed or not should first be discussed on the article's talk page. Also, see the large notice at the top of this page: you are required to notify the editor you are reporting. Schazjmd (talk) 17:53, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The editor is also called Psychloppos, not Psycholoppos. I have notified them for the OP. – 2804:F1...26:F77C (::/32) (talk) 17:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I wouldn't give a chatbot-written thread the time of day. HS, we have less tolerance for AI-written arguments than the American court system. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 18:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Disruptive behavior from IP

    For the past month, 24.206.65.142 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been attempting to add misleading information to Boeing 777, specifically trying to use the unofficial "777-200LRF" designation beyond first mention in the relevant section and passing it off as official (, , , , , , , , , , ). Their behavior died down for a few weeks, but restarted several days ago (, ), including baseless claims that Fnlayson is "okay with it". They have been asked numerous times on their talk page to either stop or provide evidence of official use of the designation, but they have failed to do so and have continued their disruption. - ZLEA T\ 19:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    I forgot to mention that this user has used at least two other IPs; 24.206.75.140 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 24.206.65.150 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). 24.206.65.142 is the most recent to cause disruption. - ZLEA T\ 20:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    "777-200LRF" is not misleading, some cargo airlines do use that designation. Today I reverted to a previous version that User:Fnlayson was okay with . I feel that User:ZLEA is going overboard with charges of misinformation and disruptive editing. 24.206.65.142 (talk) 19:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    It is misleading to remove any mentions of it being unofficial. Boeing has never made a "777-200LRF", no aftermarket conversion has ever been offered under that name, nor has the FAA or any other regulatory agency ever certified such an aircraft. To pass such a designation off as official is by definition misleading and misinformation. Likewise, to continuously do so after you have been told to stop by multiple people and falsely claiming that others support your arguments is by definition disruptive. - ZLEA T\ 20:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Of note is the fact that this is not the first time the IP has claimed to have Fnlayson's support. They have been told before by Fnlayson not to assume support without a specific statement, yet it seems they've also ignored that. - ZLEA T\ 20:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Its not misinformation as here are the sources which use "777-200LRF", including GE Capital Aviation (the engine supplier for most Boeing 777) and Leeham News (to avoid confusion with the upcoming 777-8F). 24.206.65.142 (talk) 21:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have asked you for sources from either Boeing or the FAA, yet you still either refuse to do so or (more likely) cannot because they don't exist. Only Boeing and the FAA can designate factory-built Boeing aircraft. Airlines and misinformed news websites have no authority to do so, and any alternative names they use are purely unofficial and should not have anything more than a single brief mention in the appropriate article section. Your failure or refusal to get that after numerous people have told you is disruptive. - ZLEA T\ 22:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Relevant range is 24.206.64.0/20 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)), in case somebody needs it. wizzito | say hello! 21:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Category: