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:::::Yes, WP is a standard abbreviation here for Misplaced Pages, and yes, I think Misplaced Pages should coherent in how we use concepts and terminology. ] (]) 07:31, 18 August 2024 (UTC) :::::Yes, WP is a standard abbreviation here for Misplaced Pages, and yes, I think Misplaced Pages should coherent in how we use concepts and terminology. ] (]) 07:31, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
::::::Then I don't think I misrepresent or "fail to understand" your points. You just don't seem to understand how Misplaced Pages works. ]. We do not vote to determine which definition of "indigenous" we are going to use just to be "coherent". There is no ]. Per ], we follow the sources. If there are multiple definitions of "indigenous" by reliable sources, that has to be represented in the article in line with ] and ]. Like Levivich said, we use all the sources. Given all the sources in ], I don't think it's ] to call Palestinians indigenous in my proposed text here ] (]) 18:01, 18 August 2024 (UTC) ::::::Then I don't think I misrepresent or "fail to understand" your points. You just don't seem to understand how Misplaced Pages works. ]. We do not vote to determine which definition of "indigenous" we are going to use just to be "coherent". There is no ]. Per ], we follow the sources. If there are multiple definitions of "indigenous" by reliable sources, that has to be represented in the article in line with ] and ]. Like Levivich said, we use all the sources. Given all the sources in ], I don't think it's ] to call Palestinians indigenous in my proposed text here ] (]) 18:01, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Nobody has suggested we "vote". As this is the fourth time in less than a week Bogazicili completely misrepresent what I've written and combines it with stating I'm "confused", "don't understand" and other comments on my person, I've given an NPA warning and will report any further NPA violation. As for my point of thinking WP would benefit from a good and sourced definition of indigenous peoples, I stand by it. ] (]) 20:38, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

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Property Losses Estimate

The last sentence of the header reads: "According to Perry Anderson, it is estimated that half of the population in the Palestinian territories are refugees and that they have collectively suffered approximately US$300 billion in property losses due to Israeli confiscations, at 2008–09 prices."

However, the *total* national wealth of neighbouring Jordan (population >10M, greater than 2x the current population of the Gaza Strip + the West Bank) is $146 billion, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_countries_by_total_wealth. Even if property in Israel is substantially more valuable per square foot (possible), Israel's total national wealth is only $1,046 billion or $1.05 trillion (same source), and Israel is an unusually stable/rich/technologically innovative country by Middle Eastern standards so the land in an independent Palestine has no guarantee to be as valuable as land in the state of Israel.

I submit that this sentence should be removed as not credible, or at least have some sort of qualification added to it providing context (such as the total wealth of neighbouring Jordan).

Indigineity

This revert is based on sources and both reverters have provided none for their view, instead accusing editors relying on sources of POV pushing. Selfstudier (talk) 08:30, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I would have also expected they contribute to this discussion by demonstrating which RS disagree. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:52, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
@Owenglyndur: Consensus is built on WP guidelines and involves participating in the talk page discussion, not just refusal to accept some material. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:50, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
  • @Selfstudier: can you provide several references, including the exact text of the reference, that say Palestinians are indigenous. (I know they are already in the article, provide them below as well so we can compare them with any sources that say otherwise). VR (Please ping on reply) 15:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
    Afaics, based on the latest revert by @ABHammad:, this is currently all about the difference between "native to" and "descending from". I do not understand the fuss over "native to", are there sources saying they are not? How can they be descended from but not native to?
    In fact based on the sourcing below, there is a good case for just describing them as indigeneous. Selfstudier (talk) 09:55, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
    @ABHammad: same question as above. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:20, 7 June 2024 (UTC)


Sources

Let's collect up sources here, these are mentioned in the article: Dowty, Alan (2008). Israel/Palestine. London, UK: Polity. p. 221. ISBN 978-0-7456-4243-7. Archived from the original on 29 November 2023. Retrieved 29 November 2023. Palestinians are the descendants of all the indigenous peoples who lived in Palestine over the centuries; since the seventh century, they have been predominantly Muslim in religion and almost completely Arab in language and culture.

Gelvin, James L. (13 January 2014). The Israel-Palestine Conflict: One Hundred Years of War. Cambridge University Press. p. 93. ISBN 978-1-107-47077-4. Archived from the original on 29 November 2023. Retrieved 29 November 2023. Furthermore, Zionism itself was also defined by its opposition to the indigenous Palestinian inhabitants of the region. Both the "conquest of land" and the "conquest of labor" slogans that became central to the dominant strain of Zionism in the Yishuv originated as a result of the Zionist confrontation with the Palestinian "other".

  • Abu-Libdeh, Bassam, Peter D. Turnpenny, and Ahmed Teebi. 2012. "Genetic Disease in Palestine and Palestinians". Pp. 700–11 in Genomics and Health in the Developing World, edited by D. Kumar. Oxford University Press. p. 700: "Palestinians are an indigenous people who either live in, or originate from, historical Palestine.... Although the Muslims guaranteed security and allowed religious freedom to all inhabitants of the region, the majority converted to Islam and adopted Arab culture."

Walid Khalidi argues otherwise, writing that Palestinians in Ottoman times were "cutely aware of the distinctiveness of Palestinian history ..." and "lthough proud of their Arab heritage and ancestry, the Palestinians considered themselves to be descended not only from Arab conquerors of the seventh century but also from indigenous peoples who had lived in the country since time immemorial, including the ancient Hebrews and the Canaanites before them." Khalidi, W., 1984, p. 32

Not mentioned in the article: Center for World Indigenous Studies, Indigenous Israelis and Palestinians "While each of these nations challenges the cultural and political legitimacy of the other serious scholarship informs us that both the Palestinians and the Israelis are indigenous to the territories that was once known as Canaan."

Native Peoples of the World: An Encylopedia of Groups, Cultures and Contemporary Issues Steven L. Danver Routledge 2012 "Thus, Palestinians are considered by some to be the indigenous people of present-day Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. Other scholars dispute this view, asserting that Jews and others resided in Palestine"

Reclaiming Palestinian Indigenous Sovereignty Jamal Nabulsi Pages 24-42 12 Jun 2023 https://doi.org/10.1080/0377919X.2023.2203830 "Drawing on the critical thought of Palestinians and other Indigenous peoples struggling against settler colonialism, I argue for a theorization of Palestinian indigeneity. Following from this indigeneity, I show that Palestinian Indigenous sovereignty is the embodied political claim to the land of Palestine."

Indigeneity, Apartheid, Palestine: On the Transit of Political Metaphors Mark Rifkin Cultural Critique Vol. 95 (Winter 2017), pp. 25-70 (46 pages) University of Minnesota Press https://doi.org/10.5749/culturalcritique.95.2017.0025 https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5749/culturalcritique.95.2017.0025

There are further sources that I have not reviewed in any detail at Talk:Genocide_of_Indigenous_peoples#RFC:_Palestinian_genocide_accusations. Selfstudier (talk) 16:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Editors @Owenglyndur: and @האופה: continue to edit war, notwithstanding the sourcing provided above and without providing any contrary sourcing to back up their personal opinions. Selfstudier (talk) 14:01, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
As you can see here there are many sources stating waves of Muslim Immigration to the region:
Demographic history of Palestine (region)
As well as here:
Origin of the Palestinians Owenglyndur (talk) 14:17, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
WP is not a source. Selfstudier (talk) 14:17, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
That is right, but each article has dozens of sources to back up the claim. Read the sources. Owenglyndur (talk) 14:29, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Not the way it works, you need to contradict the sources above. Waiting. Selfstudier (talk) 14:30, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Deer Sir, you asked for sources, i handed you 2 articles with plenty of sources. Read them. Owenglyndur (talk) 14:40, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
See your talk page. Selfstudier (talk) 14:45, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
@Selfstudier, your recent revert here unfortunately goes against repeated challenges (we haven't reached consensus) and does not demonstrate a willingness to engage in a constructive dialogue on this controversial issue. Please self-revert per WP:ONUS and as a gesture of openness to collaborative editing within our community. Thank you. ABHammad (talk) 19:05, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Revert your 5 or more reverts first. Selfstudier (talk) 19:06, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
@Selfstudier, let's be honest, this approach isn't very mature. It's not just me, it's hree editors that have challenged this recent addition, yet you continue to push it into the article. I urge you to consider a self-revert, which would show your willingness to engage in good faith on this matter. As an experienced editor in our community, I ask that you to set a good example for collaboration. ABHammad (talk) 19:15, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
You need to bring sources that support your version, not give lectures. Selfstudier (talk) 19:21, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
While I understand the complication involving the difference in meaning between "indigenous to an area" and "Indigenous Peoples," questioning whether Palestinians are "native" to Palestine is absolutely idiotic and frankly racist. Personally I have no tolerance for this and I doubt the rest of the community will, either. The only thing stopping me from filing at AE right now is lack of time, but if this doesn't stop I'll make time sometime in the next week unless someone else beats me to it. Levivich (talk) 15:22, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
@Levivich, @Selfstudier, @JJNito197, what I'm seeking here isn't an effort to engage in a constructive good-faith discussion to achieve consensus, but rather threats from two expereinced editors. I agree with the opposing views here—I don't see a compelling reason to redefine a 23-year-old article on Palestinians by now labeling them collectively as "native." As evidenced by the current discussion on Talk:Genocide of Indigenous peoples#RFC: Palestinian genocide accusations, there is ongoing dispute within the community about using "indigenous" to describe all Palestinians. While I do believe that many Palestinian clans have lived in Palestine for centuries, maybe millenia, it's not appropriate to definitively classify an entire, very diverse population that includes recent migrants over the past three centuries. Are all Americans considered native to America? The analogy holds here.
Please stop the back-and-forth edit conflicts. Clearly, the community has not reached any consensus on the matter, and again, involved editors should be reminded that WP:ONUS is among those seeking to change content. ABHammad (talk) 19:01, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Half of the reverts are yours. Selfstudier (talk) 19:03, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
"not appropriate" according to sources, or just original research? Because I've now seen plenty of sources stating quite clearly that it is appropriate. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:45, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm sorry but no amount of sophistry can change that fact that Palestinians are native to Palestine, it's in the name for goodness sake. The same way (multi-ethnic) Syrians are native to Syria, or multi-ethnic Americans are native to America. It's bad faith and incredibly dehumanising to insinuate Palestinians are not native to the land they are born on, suffered on, and ultimately die on, and we are just talking about those not dispersed in the diaspora. If you come from the paradigm where Arabs are from Arabia you have no ground to stand on and need to read Misplaced Pages:Competence is required before contributing further. JJNito197 (talk) 19:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
You might as well try and change Moon to say it's made of cheese. Levivich (talk) 20:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Actually it is more complicated than that. For example, one of the most distinguished Palestinian families - the Husayni family, to which belong important figures like Amin Al Husayni and Faisal Husseini - claims to be descendants of the prophet Muhammad who clearly was not native to Palestine. See here (the original source is here in p. 1053). Vegan416 (talk) 18:39, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
That doesn't mean the Palestinians, or even Husaynis, are not native to Palestine. I mean, FFS, Muhammad lived over 1000 years ago! Levivich (talk) 18:48, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
That depends how you define "native". Vegan416 (talk) 19:00, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
For example - would you say that the current WASP descendants of the Mayflower immigrants are "native Americans"? It was after all over 400 years ago. Or would you say that the current Spanish inhabitants of the Caribbean Islands who might be descendants of the Columbus expedition are "native Caribbeans"? It was after all over 500 years ago. Vegan416 (talk) 19:18, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
More lame OR - and weak OR at that. Also, not only are you comparing comparatively irrelevant parallels (500 years doesn't hold much of a wick to 1,400 years when it comes to exponential population dispersal), but the European colonisation of the Americas was also accompanied by other trends, including the spread of diseases that the native population were not immune to. Flipping it though, note that the inhabitants of the Spanish Caribbean are not considered native Spanish today. The populations that move are those most exposed to loss of indigeneity. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:43, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
This is A) lame, anecdotal OR with respect to the topic of discussion, and B) you are incorrectly inferring that this information somehow reflects on the subject. Even if we assume that the claim of the Husaynis is correct (which is by no means guaranteed bearing in mind that peoples from across the Muslim world have been fabricating claims of descent from the prophet for political gain for 1,400 years), that would still have little bearing on whether they would today be considered part of the indigenous population today, and it would be gross OR to assume that it did ... populations blend, and distinctions on an individual level (or on the family level) are almost entirely irrelevant at a population level given the passage of time. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:10, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
The great majority of Palestinians claim descent from Arabian tribes, and belong to groupings such as Qays and Yaman, or clans from Transjordan, Egypt and the area. It is only a small portion that actually trace their ancestry to the ancient populations of the area. Why, then, have we decided, contrary to the majority of Palestinians' own oral traditions, as well as numerous historical sources documenting hundreds of migrations into the area during the last thousand years, that Palestinians can collectively be defined as 'native' based on a limited number of sources? HaOfa (talk) 06:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
Because speculative theories based on anecdotal information are forum content, and sources are sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:55, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
This is exactly the opposite, the bold description as native is, in fact, the speculative theory here. I can suggest reading https://en.wikipedia.org/Origin_of_the_Palestinians#Historical_analysis, and https://en.wikipedia.org/Origin_of_the_Palestinians#In_oral_traditions, you will find plenty of reliable, academic sources there. HaOfa (talk) 07:07, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
See below. Oral traditions are in no way determinative. You've read genesis right? Origin myths are bull crap. Or bull's blood, literally, in some religions. And Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source, so let's not go in that particular direction. If you have a particular source that you think is directly relevant here, provide it. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:36, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
To Vegan: You are arguing for something that you won't achieve. I'll make three comments. (a) According to the strong consensus of modern science, we are all natives of Africa. Should we put that in all articles about groups of people? (b) Everyone has two parents, two grandparents, etc.. That gives about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 (give or take an inch) lines of descent (mother-father-father-...) back to Muhammad's time. Many of those lines of descent end at the same person, but still it is obvious that everyone has a large number of different ancestors living at Muhammad's time. Actually, of people living in the world at that time whose descendants survived until now, a majority are ancestors of each of us (this is something that has been studied mathematically). So that fact that a single line of descent to a particular person of that era can be asserted means nothing at all, just as the fact that I can prove descent from Yaroslav the Wise (which is true) doesn't make me Ukranian. (c) The fact is that, outside of very narrow meanings such as the place where an individual was born, "native" doesn't have a precise definition. The solution for us, as always, is to follow sources. Zero 02:35, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
Yes, "native" doesn't have a precise definition, and this is especially true in regions like the Levant, which has been a crossroads between major civilizations, absorbing numerous migrations over millennia, often with open borders as part of large empires. We're not talking the aborigines or native americans here. Bottom line, I see no reason to use 'native' (except maybe political, if we're honest), to define a group whose distinct identity only got consolidated in the past century, with most of them seeing themselves as migrants from other places. HaOfa (talk) 06:55, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
You're confusing indigeneity with identity. While identifying with the land is a feature of indigeneity, having a national identity is not. Tribes in the Amazon are indigenous without reference to any kind of identity outside of their tribe/village. Identity is if anything misleading, as endogamous conceptions surrounding indigeneity are more likely to be misled by myth-building, especially in a specifically nationalistic context. For instance, Yasser Arafat's association of the Palestinians with the Jebusites was just ahistorical verbiage. Indigeneity is an anthropological question, not a cultural one. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:19, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
I don't believe I am confusing anything. Numerous political claims have been made over recent decades, including the aforementioned remark from Arafat. However, if you were to ask today's Palestinians about their origins, many would say they come primarily from Arabia, as well as from Transjordan, Egypt, and other regions. Only a minority claim local origins. HaOfa (talk) 08:15, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
Yes, so again, you're just claiming some anecdotal oral testimony as something that somehow means something, and not even by way a source. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:57, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
While a bit of OR is acceptable on talk pages, please stop writing comment after comment with no reference to any sources. This is not a forum and it's just not helpful. Selfstudier (talk) 09:29, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
@Zero0000 I'm not sure you know what I am arguing for, so how do you know if I'll achieve it or not?
(1)The bottom line (literally) of your reply is that you admit that the word "native" doesn't have a precise definition. That means different people understand it differently, and that's a very good reason NOT to use it here as it can be misleading.
(2) Additionally you say that the solution is "to follow sources". Well here are several sources that point to the fact that some of the Palestinians trace their origins to outside of Palestine:
Swedenburg, Ted (2003). Memories of Revolt: The 1936–1939 Rebellion and the Palestinian National Past. University of Arkansas Press. p. 81. ISBN 978-1-55728-763-2. These primordialist claims regarding the Palestinians' primeval and prior roots in the land operated at the level of the collective. When it came to an individual's own family, however, Arab-Islamic discourse took precedence over archaeological justifications. I ran across no Palestinian villager (or urbanite) who claimed personal descent from the Canaanites. Villagers typically traced their family or their hamila's origins back to a more recent past in the Arabian peninsula. Many avowed descent from some nomadic tribe that had migrated from Arabia to Palestine either during or shortly after the Arab-Islamic conquests. By such a claim they inserted their family's history into the narrative of Arab and Islamic civilization and connected themselves to a genealogy that possessed greater local and contemporary prestige than did ancient or pre-Islamic descent. Several men specifically connected their forefathers' date of entry into Palestine to their participation in the army of Salih al-Din al-Ayyubi (Saladin), a historical figure whose significance has been retrospectively enlarged by nationalist discourse such that he is now regarded not merely as a hero of "Islamic" civilization but as a "national" luminary as well. (Modern nationalist discourse tends to downplay Salah al-Din's Kurdish origins.) Palestinians of all political stripes viewed Salah al-Din's wars against the Crusaders as a forerunner of the current combats against foreign intruders. Many considered Salah al-Din's victory over the Crusaders at Hittin (A.D. 1187) as a historical precedent that offered hope for their own eventual triumph even if, like the Crusader wars, the current struggle with Israel was destined to last more than two centuries. Family histories affiliated to earlier "patriotic" struggles against European aggression tied interviewees to a continuous narrative of national resistance. Villagers claiming descent from Arabs who entered Palestine during the Arab-Islamic conquest equally viewed these origins as establishing their historical precedence over the Jews
Grossman D. (1984), Spatial analysis of historical migrations in Samaria, Geojournal, Volume 9, pages 393–406: "Migrations of families (mainly during the past three to four centuries) were recorded on the basis of local traditions in Samaria — the N part of the West Bank. The same destinations were more important also for migrants from outside Samaria. A strong “push” factor was found to explain migration from Hebron, Gaza, and Egypt — all S of Samaria. Trans-Jordanian migrations were, however, the most important ones outside those originating in Samaria itself."
Muhammad Suwaed (2015), Historical Dictionary of the Bedouins, Rowman & Littlefield, p. 181 : "The tribes of the Bank region already penetrated the region during the period of the Ottoman rule. The history of the Bedouins in Palestine goes back a long way. It starts with the Arab invasion of Palestine in the 7th century". Vegan416 (talk) 10:26, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
That some Palestinians trace their origins outside Palestine is irrelevant to the question here. What is required is sourcing that contradicts the sourcing I posted above, which assesses Palestinians as indigenous. In fact, at this point I am not convinced that we should not just flat out be saying so, that was why I originally created this section, to discuss that, not what native means. Selfstudier (talk) 11:05, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
As Self says, the fact that some Palestinians profess ancestry from outside Palestine does not impact the issue of indigenousity. Most likely David Ben-Gurion was descended from Gengis Khan, so what? And the fuzziness of the meanings of words is more reason to follow what sources say, not less. Zero 12:17, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
@Selfstudier, I disagree that the sources I brought are irrelevant. But putting that aside, let’s look at your sources. In truth I didn't pay much attention to your sources before, as I was responding specifically to Levivich’s ridiculous claim that saying that not all Palestinians are indigenous is like saying that the moon is made of cheese, and I didn't have time to thoroughly go over all of this long discussion. But I looked at your sources now, and here are some comments: 1. The sources I brought actually directly contradict at least one of the sources you gave. Your source from Walid Hamidi says that the Palestinians see themselves as descending also "from indigenous peoples who had lived in the country since time immemorial". Whereas my source from Swedenburg says "I ran across no Palestinian villager (or urbanite) who claimed personal descent from the Canaanites".
2. Additionally, one of your own sources actually admits that the subject of Palestinian indigeneity is disputed among scholars: Native Peoples of the World: Steven L. Danver, An Encylopedia of Groups, Cultures and Contemporary Issues, Routledge, 2012, p. 554: "Thus, Palestinians are considered by some to be the indigenous people of present-day Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. Other scholars dispute this view, asserting that Jews and others resided in Palestine-usually defined as the narrow strip of land bordered by the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea – long before the Arabs arrived in the seventh century”.
Now for @Zero0000, 3. As you can see in point 2 here, there are sources that dispute the view that the Palestinians are indigenous. Therefore if you want to follow the sources in a NPOV way, you need to mention this counter-view as well. At the very least you cannot write this claim in wiki-voice. I.e you should write the leading sentence as something like: “Palestinians are an Arab ethnonational group who, according to some scholars, are native to Palestine”.
4. Alternatively you can simply decide not to use the word “native” or “indigenous”. The fact that some sources use this term, which you admit is fuzzy, doesn’t mean you must include it in the lead section. Personally I have no problem to agree in casual conversation or a political debate that both Palestinians and Jews are “native” to this land. And I think I have said as much in one of our earlier discussions on another related topic. But while in casual conversation or political debates we can use imprecise and fuzzy terms, it is a different matter altogether to use such fuzzy terminology in an encyclopedia entry, without explication. In an encyclopedia, and especially when talking in wiki-voice, we should be as precise as possible, and therefore take from the sources the precise facts they contain rather than whatever fuzzy (and disputed) adjective they use.
5. My recommendation therefore is to change the leading sentence to something like: “Palestinians are an Arab ethnonational group who are descendants of various peoples who lived in Palestine over the millennia”. This has two advantages: (a) It contains a factual claim that appears more or less in all the sources and nobody disputes, so it can be said in wikivoice. (b) It avoids the fuzzy term “native”. Vegan416 (talk) 08:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Still waiting for you and any of the objectors to find any sources yourselves that contest indigeneity. I have provided one that says, in the meta, that some do, now please locate them so we can assess the comparative weight. Native was a sort of compromise that hasn't been accepted and I didn't much like myself not because it was fuzzy but because it seems like an unnecessary dilution, so I am returning to indigenous, which has plenty of sourcing in support. Selfstudier (talk) 09:24, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
I don't know what sources the Encyclopedia refers to, as it doesn't have references. But I found some sources that it might had in mind, and several other sources that were published after the Encyclopedia:
Yahel, H., Kark, R., Frantzman, S. (2012). Are the Negev Bedouin an indigenous people?). Middle East Quarterly, 4, p. 5: "Far from being the indigenous inhabitants, the Bedouin were relative latecomers to the Negev, preying on the villages and caravansaries that dotted the sparsely populated wilderness."; p. 14: "Although there is no official definition of indigeneity in international law, Negev Bedouin cannot be regarded as an indigenous people in the commonly accepted sense. If anything, the Bedouin have more in common with the European settlers who migrated to other lands, coming into contact with existing populations with often unfortunate results for the latter."
Frantzman, S., Yahel, H., Kark, R. (2012) Contested Indigeneity: The Development of an Indigenous Discourse on the Bedouin of the Negev, Israel. Israel Studies, 17(1), 78–104 :"The relatively new Bedouin claim to be classified as indigenous, having gained some international and academic support, is increasingly part of the self-perception of the educated elite among the Bedouin. However, the claim and international recognition face hurdles that the scholars mentioned above avoided discussing, many of which mirror the disputes and debates throughout the world that deal with indigenous peoples. For instance, one issue in the case of the Bedouin is the important and critical element of original occupancy of the land. The current Negev Bedouin tribes arrived to the Negev, from their historical homeland in the Arabian Desert, Transjordan, Egypt, and the Sinai, mainly since the eighteenth century and onwards. Scholars and activists have not wrestled or debated this issue."
Joffe, Alex (2017). Palestinian Settler-Colonialism. Begin-Sadat Center Perspectives Paper No. 577: "Echoing Inbari, it is not to be argued here that 'there are no Palestinians' who thus do not deserve political rights, including self-rule and a state. To do so would be both logically and morally wrong. Palestinians have the right to define themselves as they see fit, and they must be negotiated with in good faith by Israelis. What Palestinians cannot claim, however, is that they are Palestine’s indigenous population and the Jews are settler-colonialists."
Ukashi, Ran (2018). "Zionism, Imperialism, and Indigeneity in Israel/Palestine: A Critical Analysis". Peace and Conflict Studies: Vol. 25: No. 1 , Article 7, p. 13: "Again, while making exception for those Arabized Peoples that could justifiably claim lineage directly to antiquity, it can be demonstrated that of the significant cohort of Arab economic migrants to Palestine from modern-day Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and elsewhere prior to partition in 1947, no reasonably Indigenous connection to the territory can be claimed."
Troen, I., & Troen, C. (2019). Indigeneity. Israel Studies, 24(2), 17–32: "We have argued that despite the admitted distortions there is a covert polemical advantage to designating Bedouins as well as other Palestinian Arabs as "indigenous" The deliberate use of the term “indigenous” in spurious scholarship furthers tendentious narratives for partisan and polemical advantage".
Block, Walter E.; Futerman, Alan G. (2021). The Classical Liberal Case for Israel. Springer Nature. p. 28: "Therefore, the claim to the widely held idea that Palestinian Arabs are the indigenous population of the land, with a millennia connection to it, is simply not based on facts." Vegan416 (talk) 17:32, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
I have way more sources that that. And three of those are about the Bedouin? Keep trying tho. Selfstudier (talk) 17:45, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
The Bedouins in Palestine are considered part of the Palestinians now. Don't you know that? And counting doesn't really matter here. If I show that there are RS that dispute the claim then it is disputed. Vegan416 (talk) 17:53, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Doesn't work like that. Wait and see. Selfstudier (talk) 17:57, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Wait for what? Vegan416 (talk) 17:58, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
To see. Selfstudier (talk) 17:59, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
To see what? Vegan416 (talk) 18:00, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Asked and answered (twice). Selfstudier (talk) 18:02, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Are you trolling me? Vegan416 (talk) 18:03, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Pot..kettle. Selfstudier (talk) 18:12, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
I don't understand what you want. I told you - if different RS have different opinions on a claim then you cannot make this claim in a wikivoice. Vegan416 (talk) 18:28, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
We can if there is a clear majority, which there is, your sources, 3 of which only deal with a subset of Palestinians, are a distinct minority. Selfstudier (talk) 18:35, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#Explanation Vegan416 (talk) 18:38, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
" including all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight." Your sources do not demonstrate due weight, whereas the sources I have provided (dozens of them) clearly do. Selfstudier (talk) 18:40, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
I disagree with you. I think my sources have sufficient due weight. Vegan416 (talk) 18:45, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Well, we are back to wait and see. Selfstudier (talk) 18:48, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
I see you are back to trolling, so bye for now. I'll just note by way of parting that the editor/writer of the Native Peoples of the World: An Encyclopedia of Groups, Cultures and Contemporary Issues that you brought among your sources also thinks like me that this view has sufficient due weight to be mentioned. Vegan416 (talk) 18:55, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
I have absolutely no idea why you think I am trolling. You ask a question and I reply is not trolling. I could just not reply at all if you would prefer. Selfstudier (talk) 18:57, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
You repeat saying "wait and see" and refuse to explain what you mean by this. Vegan416 (talk) 18:59, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
It means exactly that. Selfstudier (talk) 19:08, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, but I have more interesting things to do than waiting for unspecified things to happen... Vegan416 (talk) 19:13, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
We have an article on the Negev Bedouin, its Negev Bedouin. It isnt this article. nableezy - 18:42, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
The sources do not speak only about the Bedouins Vegan416 (talk) 18:45, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
They do except for a couple of them, one hysterical in its tone and the other representing a minority view published by an avowedly partisan think tank. nableezy - 20:42, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
On the subject of Arab Bedouins specifically in the Southern Levant, I'm not sure whether these scholars got their sources, but the Nabataean Arabs, and other Arab tribes and nomads, have indupitably roamed the deserts of the Southern Levant since antiquity. It doesn't get much more indigenous than being an tribal nomad in that desert. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:40, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
They're Bedouin. They move around a lot. And then come back. And then go away. And then come back again. What causes this strange behavior? Next up, on In Search of... (TV series).Dan Murphy (talk) 23:24, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
A single dated (2012 is quite old at this point) and generalist tertiary source by a non-specialist is not particularly useful in establishing current scholarly consensus. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:03, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
It's off-topic, but incidentally Swedenburg does not affirm the claims. He says: "Many avowed descent By such a claim they inserted their family's history into the narrative that possessed greater local and contemporary prestige than did ancient or pre-Islamic descent." So far from lending these "avowed claims" any credence, he points out the ulterior motives that accompany them (as well as other ahistorical narratives such as Saladin not being Kurdish). Iskandar323 (talk) 13:00, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I checked a few more sources:

All three refer to Palestinians as indigenous. In addition to the sources posted above by Self and others, I'd agree with using the term "indigenous." Levivich (talk) 16:32, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Same, and the idea that you can argue against sources that directly say something with sources that do not directly dispute it is a non-starter here. nableezy - 16:45, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
More sources...might be some duplication, haven't finished checking them:
    • Palestinians are indigenous Abdullah, D. (2019). A century of cultural genocide in Palestine. In Cultural Genocide (pp. 227-245). Routledge.
      "The Zionist mission was, therefore, to ethnically cleanse the land. Theodore Herzl, the movement’s founder, was convinced that the fulfilment of their dream would result in the acute suffering and misery for the indigenous population."
    • Palestinians are indigenous Pappe, I. (2007). The ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Simon and Schuster.
    • Palestinians are indigenous Nijim, M. (2020). Genocide in Gaza: Physical destruction and beyond.
    • Palestinians are indigenous Culverwell, S. M. (2017). Israel and Palestine-An analysis of the 2014 Israel-Gaza war from a genocidal perspective.
      Cites others and adopts their framework: "Pappé (2005), Shaw (2010), Docker (2012), Lloyd (2012), Rashed and Short (2012), and Rashed, Short and Docker (2014) have all analyzed the 1948 conflict from a settler-colonial perspective. In this relationship, these scholars recognize the Zionist Jews as the ‘settlers’ and the ‘Arab Palestinians’ as the indigenous population."
    • Palestinians are indigenous Atallah, D. G., & Awartani, H. (2024). Embodying Homeland: Palestinian Grief and the Perseverance of Beauty in a Time of Genocide. Journal of Palestine Studies, 1-9.
    • Indigeneity is about identity, not practice, and both Israelis and Palestinians incorporate it into theirs Busbridge, R. (2018). Israel-Palestine and the settler colonial ‘turn’: From interpretation to decolonization. Theory, Culture & Society, 35(1), 91-115.
    • Implies in passing that Palestinians are indigenous Moses, A. D. (2011). Paranoia and Partisanship: Genocide Studies, Holocaust Historiography, and the ‘Apocalyptic Conjuncture’. The Historical Journal, 54(2), 553-583.
      "the mufti still features in Zionist literature as a co-perpetrator of the Holocaust, converting him from an indigenous, anti-colonialist to an Arab-Muslim-Nazi, the ancestor of Hamas, Hizbollah, Iran, and other 'Islamofascist' enemies of Israel"
    • Palestinians are indigenous Tabar, L., & Desai, C. (2017). Decolonization is a global project: From Palestine to the Americas. Decolonization: Indigeneity, Education & Society, 6(1).
      "In 1948, the Zionist settler colonization of Palestine culminated in the mass eviction of the overwhelming majority of the indigenous Palestinian people"
    • Palestinians are indigenous Said, E. (1999). Palestine: memory, invention and space. The landscape of Palestine: Equivocal poetry, 3-20.
      "The link between the metaphors of buildings and housing, and erasure, with the necessary steps to the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine was always clear to the country's indigenous inhabitants"
    1. Palestinians are indigenous Abu-Saad, I. (2001). Education as a tool for control vs. development among indigenous peoples: The case of Bedouin Arabs in Israel. Hagar: International Social Science Review, 2(2), 241-259.
    2. Both have a claim to indigeneity Ukashi, R. (2018). Zionism, Imperialism, and Indigeneity in Israel/Palestine: A Critical Analysis. Peace and Conflict Studies, 25(1), 7.
    3. Palestinians are indigenous Pappe, I. (2018). Indigeneity as cultural resistance: Notes on the Palestinian struggle within twenty-first-century Israel. South Atlantic Quarterly, 117(1), 157-178.
    4. Palestinians are indigenous Blatman, N., & Sabbagh‐Khoury, A. (2023). The presence of the absence: Indigenous Palestinian urbanism in Israel. International Journal of Urban and Regional Research, 47(1), 119-128.
    5. Palestinians are indigenous, Israelis are explicitly non-indigenous Veracini, L. (2015). What can settler colonial studies offer to an interpretation of the conflict in Israel–Palestine?. Settler Colonial Studies, 5(3), 268-271.
    6. Palestinians are indigenous Nasasra, M. (2012). The ongoing Judaisation of the Naqab and the struggle for recognising the indigenous rights of the Arab Bedouin people. Settler Colonial Studies, 2(1), 81-107.
    7. Palestinians are indigenous, Israelis are explicitly not Krebs, M., & Olwan, D. M. (2012). ‘From Jerusalem to the grand river, our struggles are one’: Challenging Canadian and Israeli settler colonialism. Settler Colonial Studies, 2(2), 138-164.
    8. Palestinians are indigenous, Israelis are explicitly not Yiftachel, O. (2003). Bedouin-Arabs and the Israeli settler state. Indigenous people between Autonomy and globalization, 21-47.
    9. Palestinians are indigenous, while Israelis are attempting to become indigenous Monterescu, D., & Handel, A. (2019). Liquid indigeneity: Wine, science, and colonial politics in Israel/Palestine. American Ethnologist, 46(3), 313-327.
    10. Palestinians are indigenous Abu-Rayya, H. M., & Abu-Rayya, M. H. (2009). Acculturation, religious identity, and psychological well-being among Palestinians in Israel. International Journal of Intercultural Relations, 33(4), 325-331.
    11. Palestinians are indigenous, Israelis are explicitly not Blatman-Thomas, N. (2017). Commuting for rights: Circular mobilities and regional identities of Palestinians in a Jewish-Israeli town. Geoforum, 78, 22-32.
    12. Palestinians are indigenous, Israelis are explicitly not Nabulsi, J. (2023). Reclaiming Palestinian Indigenous Sovereignty. Journal of Palestine Studies, 52(2), 24-42.
    13. Palestinians are indigenous Murphy, T. (2010). ‘Courses and Recourses’ Exploring Indigenous Peoples’ Land Reclamation in Search of Fresh Solutions for Israelis and Palestinians. Journal for the Study of Peace and Conflict, 54-69.
    14. (about Negev Bedouins) Israelis are not indigenous Kram, N. (2013). Clashes over recognition: The struggle of indigenous Bedouins for land ownership rights under Israeli law. California Institute of Integral Studies.
    15. We should move beyond a settler-indigenous framework Bashir, B., & Busbridge, R. (2019). The politics of decolonisation and bi-nationalism in Israel/Palestine. Political Studies, 67(2), 388-405.
    16. Palestinians are indigenous, Israelis are explicitly not Sasa, G. (2023). Oppressive pines: Uprooting Israeli green colonialism and implanting Palestinian A’wna. Politics, 43(2), 219-235.
    17. Palestinians are indigenous Khatib, I. (2021). Attitudes of indigenous minority leaders toward political events in their trans-state national group: Between identity, conflict and values. Nationalism and Ethnic Politics, 27(2), 149-168.
    18. Israelis are not indigenous, they've merely attempted to claim indigeneity Cheyfitz, E. (2014). The force of exceptionalist narratives in the Israeli—Palestinian conflict. Native American and Indigenous Studies, 1(2), 107-124.
    19. Palestinians are indigenous Arar, K. (2012). Israeli education policy since 1948 and the state of Arab education in Israel. Italian Journal of Sociology of Education, 4(1), 113-145.
    20. (about the Druze) Israelis are not indigenous Yiftachel, O., & Segal, M. D. (1998). Jews and Druze in Israel: state control and ethnic resistance. Ethnic and Racial Studies, 21(3), 476-506.
Selfstudier (talk) 18:19, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Let's keep adding sources here so that this doesn't get archived while there are ongoing discussions on the matter. Selfstudier (talk) 09:16, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Adding more sources who hold the same partisan viewpoint does not alter the overall result. Yes, there are sources that adopt this framing, but most of them adhere to the settler-colonial paradigm of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and/or aligned with progressive and left-wing ideologies. The critical factor is the weight of evidence and whether this perspective achieves consensus within the scholarly community. Currently, this is not the case. ABHammad (talk) 09:57, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
This section is for sources, feel free to add some. Selfstudier (talk) 10:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Take, for example, The Economist's definition: 'Palestinians - A population of around 14 million people who trace their origins to British-ruled Palestine. Around 7 million Palestinians live in Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. Another 7 million are scattered across the Arab world and beyond. Nearly 6 million are registered as refugees.' This outlet is famous for its radical centrist, neutral position. In this case, it exemplifies how a neutral definition of Palestinians should look like. Misplaced Pages should be neutral, not a partisan source. ABHammad (talk) 10:07, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Not a scholarly source. Such sources should be trivially easy to locate if there is actually any support for the position. Selfstudier (talk) 10:09, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Great work, Selfstudier and Vegan416. I'd recommend you to create a separate page under this talk page about Indigenous Sources, similar to Talk:Sustainable energy/Air pollution statistics under Talk:Sustainable energy. Sustainable energy is an FA-class article.

If you have time, I'd also recommend for you to identify the authors of the works cited. Are they experts or academics? Do they have PhD? Things like that. It'd be also good to identify review articles (WP:Secondary).

For example:

    • It was under British protection and by the force of British arms that duringthe first phase, from 1918 to 1948, the demographic, economic, military, and organizational infrastructure of the future Jewish state was laid, at the ex-pense of the indigenous Palestinian people and in the teeth of their resist-ance.. This is a review article and would be considered WP:Secondary. The author, Walid Khalidi, would be considered an expert in my opinion. Bogazicili (talk) 23:11, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

"Palestien" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Palestien has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 July 30 § Palestien until a consensus is reached. - CHAMPION 07:50, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Source and meaning

In Etymology chapter this is written, "It appears to have been used as an Arabic adjectival noun in the region since as early as the 7th century.", the source is - Kish, 1978. What is the meaning of the that adjectival noun? Where can we see this source? the only source on the net about Kish are his excavations, all before 1933, and the word palestine is not there. Is that another Kish? Is that a book? more description of the source is requested. thanks. 2A01:6500:A044:1F6C:5764:17D5:E4EC:6D0E (talk) 05:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The source is given in the bibliography section. You can check it if you have a free archive.org account. Zero 05:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, the text is about a geographer that lived from 945 to 1000, he claims to have been named Filastini and 62 more names, and to have traveled in many places, he doesn't say why was he named that, and in what region.
so the sentence -
"Arabic adjectival noun in the region since as early as the 7th century"
is not precise according to this resource, since this happened in the 10th and not the 7th, and it is not written that this happened in the region. Rise after falling (talk) 11:43, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
@Rise after falling: I've investigated this and you are right to question it. This sentence in the article was first added in 2007 and initially referred to a notable person called `Abdallah b. Muhayriz al-Jumahi al-Filastini who died at the beginning of the 8th century (and so lived in the 7th century). The last part of his name means "the Palestinian", but the source doesn't say that so I'm not sure we can add it on that basis. However, if we find a source which interprets that name we can put it back. The current source refers to the 10th century, but it isn't very satisfactory as it doesn't say that Al-Maqdisi was from Palestine. The quote only lists the things he was called, not the things that he was. In his book he very clearly states that he was from Jerusalem, a city in Filastin, a region he describes in great detail. See the last comment on Talk:Al-Maqdisi. Zero 04:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
I think we can state that "al-Filastini" means "the Palestinian" per Misplaced Pages:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue. That Filastin = Palestine is clear to all, as is the use of the Arabic definite article. The concept of Nisba (onomastics) may be less known in the English speaking world, but it is rock solid. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:45, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
I have found a source: Eid, M. (1990). Perspectives on Arabic Linguistics I: Papers from the First Annual Symposium on Arabic Linguistics. Amsterdam studies in the theory and history of linguistic science. John Benjamins. p. 58. ISBN 978-90-272-3560-2. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Indigeneous

Per the sources above at #Indigineity, there seems to be a case for describing Palestinians as indigenous. Atm, we say "native to Palestine" in the lead opening which is arguably the same thing.

Apart from this article, there is an ongoing discussion at Genocide of indigenous peoples as to whether Palestine should be included in that article and opponents are making the argument that Palestinians are not indigenous. However editors are also objecting to inclusion at List of genocides so I think it is probably more a case of DONTLIKEIT than anything else.

If we assert indigenous in this article this would put paid to the "Palestinians are not indigeneous" argument being made at various places. What do editors think? Selfstudier (talk) 09:15, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

From the very beginning the word "native" was added through edit warring and despite substantial opposition, it wasn't supposed to be there in the first place. ABHammad (talk) 09:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
As far as I can tell from the editing history, the principal objector most recently was yourself. Selfstudier (talk) 10:07, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
I see at least three reverts from three different editors, a clear sign that there was no consensus for this change. ABHammad (talk) 10:10, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Diffs please. Selfstudier (talk) 10:22, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
from the sourcing above, it seems like there is very strong support for "indigenous". (t · c) buidhe 01:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
So much guess work. What you mean to say is "The Indigenous Peoples of Palestine are the Bedouin Jahalin, al-Kaabneh, al-Azazmeh, al-Ramadin and al-Rshaida.""International Work Group for Indigenous Affairs". IWGIA. 2016-12-23. Retrieved 2024-08-11.. Moxy🍁 02:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
I don't agree that any one source can be the arbiter for this. The vast majority of sources that weigh in on this question describe Palestinians as indigenous, not specific Palestinian subgroups. (t · c) buidhe 02:43, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
International Work Group for Indigenous Affairs is an organization based in Denmark. It's not a worldwide authority that can establish who is indigenous and who isn't. Their definition is for their own purposes. UN defines 5,000 indigenous groups, which is only 6.2% of the world population. I can't find the entire list, but here's an infographic based on . Based on such a narrow definition, most of the world wouldn't be considered indigenous. It's clear these groups have a working definition for their own purposes and are not using the dictionary definition. There is no reason why Misplaced Pages should use the restricted definition. Bogazicili (talk) 20:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Odd rant about the organization but the The Indigenous World’, a publication that lists groups that have gained global acceptance as Indigenous currently list five internationally recognized Indigenous communities in Palestine.... here are the basics. We should not make up our own definition by synthesis.Moxy🍁 00:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Just to clarify:
1) Are you saying that we should ignore all the sources in Talk:Palestinians#Sources, because of the 2 sources you provided, one of which is "Global Bar Magazine"?
2) Are you objecting to "native" in the first paragraph in the lead? Bogazicili (talk) 16:37, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
I assume not all have access to the source in full...as 2/3rds mention the different groups. There seems to be an assumption that all Palestinians make up one ethnic group.....no nation or country is made up of just one ethnic group. Moxy🍁 16:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
It makes no difference if sources say they are indigenous, this is the main point. Selfstudier (talk) 17:13, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Exactly. The obvious analogy is Native Americans in the United States: multiple nations and ethnicities, all indigenous. Anyway, @Moxy: are you objecting to "native" in the first paragraph of the lead? Levivich (talk) 17:20, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Yes!...... Native is used for non-human things... like flowers or in a human context to say something like they are a native New Yorker. I have no problem using the modern terminology of indigenous. Only in the United States does the term native refer to indigenous peoples. basics here. Moxy🍁 23:04, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Interesting you are objecting to Palestinians being native, whereas a lot of ethnicity articles say they are native. Are you also objecting to them?
  • English people: "The English people are an ethnic group and nation native to England". How are English people native? Anglo-Saxons came from Denmark and Germany.
  • Serbs: "The Serbs (Serbian Cyrillic: Срби, romanized: Srbi, pronounced ) are a South Slavic ethnic group native to Southeastern Europe" How are Serbs native? Slavic people migrated to Balkans in the 7th century.
Are you claiming diferencias.cc website invalidate all the sources presented in this talk page? Bogazicili (talk) 23:18, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
You need to understand the context they're not claiming these people are indigenous. This usage is explained in the source I provided above. The academic world follows style guides =Academic style guides and modern media publications. Indigenous people aren't flowers or rocks... they are humans. Moxy🍁 23:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
diferencias.cc is not a reliable source. The rest of your answer does not make sense. Bogazicili (talk) 23:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
It's basic comparison for not academics..... no one's using it as a source... please follow the link provided above.... let me link it again for you =Style guides and academic publications Moxy🍁 23:38, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Style guidelines such as something being capitalized is irrelevant to our discussion. Our discussion is about Palestinians. And sources presented here: Talk:Palestinians#Sources Bogazicili (talk) 23:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
By the time snap it's clear you didn't even take the time to review the sources. Will let others try to educate you. Moxy🍁 23:43, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
@Moxy: please refrain from such patronizing language per WP:Civil in this talk page. Thank you. Bogazicili (talk) 23:45, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
@Moxy, @Bogazicili: Correct me if I'm wrong about any of the following, but do all three of us agree that the lead...
  1. Should, in some way, say that Palestinians are from Palestine
  2. Should not say that Palestinians are not from Palestine
  3. Should not say that Palestinians are from somewhere other than Palestine
And therefore, the scope of the disagreement is how to say that Palestinians are from Palestine, i.e. "native" or "indigenous"?
If I'm right so far, then doesn't it follow that, if you prefer "native" you would take "indigenous" over saying that Palestinians are not from Palestine or are from somewhere else, and vice versa, if you prefer "indigenous," then "native" is the second choice over "not from Palestine"?
Do I understand your views correctly? If not, please correct me. Levivich (talk) 23:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
I have no problem saying they're indigenous..... we should just list these indigenous groups. We have known for a few decades now that everyone in the region is similar and have continuously inhabited the region. Today's division is based on modern culture and religion not Indigenous ancestry. Moxy🍁 00:06, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Levivich, I think the article should say:
1) "native to" or "indigenous" in the first paragraph in the lead. We have the sources for "indigenous". "Native to" could be considered a simpler wording of that.
2) Mention "indigenous" in the body
3) Mention "indigenous people" might have different definitions in the body.
4) In the body, mention that according to International Work Group for Indigenous Affairs, "The Indigenous Peoples of Palestine are the Bedouin Jahalin, al-Kaabneh, al-Azazmeh, al-Ramadin and al-Rshaida." Bogazicili (talk) 17:53, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
@Bogazicili: That all sounds reasonable to me! Levivich (talk) 19:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
I would support "indigenous" instead of / in addition to "native", given that it is a more specific designation that provides more information. I haven't seen any policy based reason not to use it, and it's very widely used in sources. (t · c) buidhe 03:32, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Very few peoples are described as "indigenous" and virtually all are "primitive" societies until recently. Palestinians are the heirs of great civilizations and an advanced society for over a millennium. I don't know any similar people described as "indigenous" on Misplaced Pages. Jeppiz (talk) 22:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Look, the only reason I am interested in it being explicitly indigeneous is because there are freakin articles that have that word in their titles and editors (whom are likely known to you) are saying specifically that because Palestinians are NOT indigenous they can't be in the list, which is just bs. This is not some discussion about the finer points, it is just a question of whether the sourcing supports it and afaics, it does. Selfstudier (talk) 22:42, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
That is personal opinion, not a source or policy based rationale. (t · c) buidhe 02:55, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
I agree, just as your view is your petsonal and not any policy based rationale. My view does have the advantage of being consistent: I recommend we treat the page for one people the same as most other people. Your opinion appears to be we should make exception. My point is that I have not seen any convincing arguments for that view. Jeppiz (talk) 19:17, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
My belief is that the article should match what it says in reliable sources (see above). If that isnt a convincing argument, I'm not sure what we're doing here. (t · c) buidhe 04:39, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

A weak no. Palestinians are as indigenous to Palestine as the French are to France or the English are to England. Still, we don't use "indigenous" for the French or the English or others either (and we of course should not use it for any other group in Palestine either) as the term is rather ill defined and often problematic. Jeppiz (talk) 22:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

There are a lot of articles using the word tho. See List of Indigenous peoples where "both" get a mention. Selfstudier (talk) 22:44, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
In Swedes, it says "native to Sweden". Indo-European languages are not native to Western or Northern Europe. Why are Swedes "native" but Palestinians aren't? Bogazicili (talk) 23:11, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Who said they aren't? Jeppiz (talk) 22:52, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
@Jeppiz: Can you clarify if you are objecting to "native" in the first paragraph in the lead or not? Bogazicili (talk) 20:05, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Of course not, I think we should says Palestinians are native to Palestine, just as we say Swedes are native to Sweden. We shouldn't use "indigenous" for any of them (nor for the French, English, Spanish, Israelis, Russians, etc.) Jeppiz (talk) 00:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Were sources such as these (Talk:Palestinians#Sources) provided for those articles? Why should we reject those sources? Because of other Misplaced Pages articles? Your initial examples, English people and French people are not even Good Articles. Bogazicili (talk) 22:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Need for sources

The problem in this discussion seems to be the poor use of sources, with different users cherrypicking whatever source fits their preference. The "problem" (or the advantage) is that there exists quite a large body of academic literature on Indigenous Peoples. Any people regularly mentioned as indigenous in such sources could be described as indigenous. Peoples frequently lacking from such sources probably should not be described as indigenous. This is not on how we should describe Palestinians in particular, but a comment on proper use of references. If Palestinians are frequently included in such sources, describe them as indigenous. If they are never or very rarely included, don't call them indigenous. That is proper use of WP:RS. I honestly have no idea, but apparently nobody else in the discussion knows either. As for me, I will happily go along with what academic sources on indigenous peoples say, regardless of what they say (and ignore as irrelevant what any random source not dealing primarily with indigeneous peoples say). Jeppiz (talk) 16:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

That is unlikely to solve anything here, methinks, An RFC? Selfstudier (talk) 16:54, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Bogazicili and Levivich, apologies, but you are suggesting brazen WP:OR violations. On one hand, you suggest using IWGIA as source. On the other hand, you suggest ignoring IWGIA and state that "Palestinians" are indigenous to Palestine. IWGIA limits the indigenous label to Bedouin Jahalin, al-Kaabneh, al-Azazmeh, al-Ramadin and al-Rshaida. So if IWGIA is the source you suggest we use, we cannot label "Palestinians" as indigenous. This is even worse than cherrypicking sources; it is taking a source and then using said source to claim something the source does not say. I should not have to point out such obvious OR discrepancies to established users. Jeppiz (talk) 22:04, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what you're talking about. Calling Palestinians "indigenous" is supported by the dozens of reliable sources already posted on this page. There is no OR involved in that, it's just V. Levivich (talk) 22:09, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
I invite you to read my comment again. I don’t know how much clearer I could have made it. Either we decide to rely on IWGIA or we don't. We cannot have it both ways. Jeppiz (talk) 08:45, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Your argument actually seems to be that scholarly sources describing Palestinians as indigeneous should be discounted in favor of ONLY sources about indigeneous peoples in general. And yet articles that are primarily about indigeneous peoples don't do that so why should we do it here? If that is your position then we are stuck and I return to my suggestion of RFC to resolve this. Selfstudier (talk) 08:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
I think the difference between my position and many others is that I don't care one way or other if Palestinians are described as indigenous. I understand and respect that some pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli users are interested in that (albeit with opposite opinions); I'm not. My concern is how we use sources and define indigenous peoples. If that definition ends up being one that include Palestinians, we should describe Palestinians as indigenous. If the definition does not, we should not. I am willing to state that the discussion about indigenous status for Palestinians is unclear enough to warrant a discussion. Describing Israelis as indigenous would just be silly and go against every conventional understanding of "indigenous". So yes, an RfC might be needed but preferably one that focus on how WP define "indigenous" and then apply that definition wherever it applies. Jeppiz (talk) 09:07, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Jeppiz, you seem very confused about what WP:OR is or what my suggestion was.
Here's what I suggest:
Palestinians are sometimes described as indigenous. Indigenous people may have different definitions, including the UN recognized definition.. According to International Work Group for Indigenous Affairs, the "Indigenous Peoples of Palestine are the Bedouin Jahalin, al-Kaabneh, al-Azazmeh, al-Ramadin and al-Rshaida".
There is nothing WP:OR about this. It is perfectly in line with WP:V and WP:NPOV.
I think RfC is premature at this point. No valid argument has been presented about why we should ignore reliable sources presented here Talk:Palestinians#Sources. Bogazicili (talk) 14:43, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Bogazicili, this is the third time in just a few days that you either fail to understand my point (which I assume is the case, assuming good faith) or intentionally misrepresent it. Nobody has suggested "ignoring" reliable sources. I have advocated for proper use of reliable sources. Jeppiz (talk) 16:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
That language looks good to me. Levivich (talk) 17:05, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Either we decide to rely on IWGIA or we don't The heck are you talking about? It's not like we have to choose one source. There are dozens of reliable sources on this page. We can rely on all of them. Levivich (talk) 17:05, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Jeppiz, can you confirm "WP" here So yes, an RfC might be needed but preferably one that focus on how WP define "indigenous" and then apply that definition wherever it applies. refers to Misplaced Pages? It is kind of obvious, but still wanted to confirm. Do you think Misplaced Pages should settle on one definition of "indigenous"? Bogazicili (talk) 18:05, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Yes, WP is a standard abbreviation here for Misplaced Pages, and yes, I think Misplaced Pages should coherent in how we use concepts and terminology. Jeppiz (talk) 07:31, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Then I don't think I misrepresent or "fail to understand" your points. You just don't seem to understand how Misplaced Pages works. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. We do not vote to determine which definition of "indigenous" we are going to use just to be "coherent". There is no WP:Coherent. Per WP:V, we follow the sources. If there are multiple definitions of "indigenous" by reliable sources, that has to be represented in the article in line with WP:Neutrality and WP:DUE. Like Levivich said, we use all the sources. Given all the sources in Talk:Palestinians#Sources, I don't think it's WP:UNDUE to call Palestinians indigenous in my proposed text here Bogazicili (talk) 18:01, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Nobody has suggested we "vote". As this is the fourth time in less than a week Bogazicili completely misrepresent what I've written and combines it with stating I'm "confused", "don't understand" and other comments on my person, I've given an NPA warning and will report any further NPA violation. As for my point of thinking WP would benefit from a good and sourced definition of indigenous peoples, I stand by it. Jeppiz (talk) 20:38, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
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