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New editor with CIR, BLP, COPYVIO issues

Could someone please have a nice, quiet chat with brand new editor User:Daffyduck1234? He's been adding copyvio images to pages (IMDB images uploaded to Commons as "own work" and then added to article here), adding unsourced non-consensus material regarding the death of Margie Hines, creating sub-stub articles with a single sentence and no references, and so on, and seems reluctant to listen to what's on his talk page -- instead he just bulls ahead. BMK (talk) 01:17, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I just want to bring this, which I think could possibly be a self-portrait, to the attention of whoever talks to the editor. BMK (talk) 01:28, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I thought that this person might be this guy at first, but the pattern isn't quite right. Sigh, I'm becoming a jaded admin seeing socks everywhere. :( -- Atama頭 01:32, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I guess that one of the drawbacks of the job, becoming jaded.

The young man just dropped a warning on my user page (not my talk page), so he's certainly seeing the comments I'm leaving for him, even if he's not taking them into account. BMK (talk) 01:35, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

It's on the record, BMK. You have been warned. Anyway, I'll see if maybe another person chiming in helps, sometimes people think that if one person is addressing their misbehavior, it's just some jerk, but if someone else comes in maybe there's a legitimate complaint (although it can also mean the second person is the jerk's henchman or something). But it's worth a try. -- Atama頭 01:43, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't seem to have made any difference - he created two new crude unsourced sub-stub articles. I'm afraid that this is going to come down to a competency block, since I'm not sure that the editor is understanding what he's being told. BMK (talk) 02:44, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

One step forward, but then a step sideways: The editor is not uploading copyrighted pictures to Commons now, just very bad photos of streets taken from inside a car. These purport to be (and may well be, I don't know) streets named after the subjects of article - i.e. "Pennell lane" for William Pennell - and they are being added to to the subject's articles without citational support or explanation. He also continues to add unsupported birth and death dates to biographical articles - again, these might be accurate, and he might be getting then from a source, but no source is listed. There's also been no response on the talk page to the various comments, including now a final warning from another editor. BMK (talk) 17:15, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

A comment on his talk page from the editor, but it's not encouraging. Under the section title "I'm tyring to he helpful": "Stop talking to me I created Misplaced Pages and I forbid blocking my edits."

Unfortunately, I think it's time for a competency block per WP:CIR and WP:NOTTHERAPY. BMK (talk) 20:17, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, that's not entirely fair, BMK. He actually said "I'm trying to be helpful". Not that I'm against Atama's block or anything. Good block. Bishonen | talk 19:35, 28 March 2014 (UTC).

Bish (may I call you that?), I think it's quite fair when "I'm trying to be helpful" is paired with "Stop talking to me" (discussion is the essence of collegiality and impossible without it), "I forbid blocking my edits" and "I created Misplaced Pages", which are both either trolling or delusional. (P.S. If you're responding to the misspelling of "trying", that was a typo on my part.) BMK (talk) 23:48, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I assumed it was a typo, after I checked. But I was actually responding to the misspelling of "trying" as "tyring" and the misspelling of "be" as "he", in a quote of five words. I'm sorry, but the impression I got before checking (which not everybody does) was that you were showing up the user as a careless typist, and I didn't think it should be left without comment, to make the same impression on others. But it's moot, the user has been blocked, and not for careless typing. I call you BMK, so feel free to call me anything you like, down to and including "B". Bishonen | talk 17:26, 29 March 2014 (UTC).

I'm not a touch-typist, so my rate of typos goes up the faster I try to type. Please rest assured that I was attempting not to characterize Daffyduck1234's typing or spelling, but to point out the content of their talk page comment, which was rather strange.

As you say, water under the bridge at this point. BMK (talk) 00:29, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Marnette D, whose opinion I respect, appears to think that we're being trolled. This is quite possible, as at some point extreme incompetency and trolling are very difficult to tell apart. It actually doesn't matter all that much, though, since the end result is the same: time and effort are sucked up and the project is not improved. BMK (talk) 20:23, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, you know what they say about Hanlon's Razor... Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:25, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry

I've just run out of AGF. The brand new editor User:Sandboxxxxx is quite obviously a sock of Daffyduck1234, making the same edits on Margie Hines, re-creating the speedily deleted sub-sub-stub Buddy red bow (which I've again marked for speedy deletion). Competence or trolling, eh, who cares, the editor isn't going to listen, and isn't going to play by the rules, so both accounts should be indef blocked. BMK (talk) 21:01, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I concur about the trolling. The "final warning" was received at 16:12, 26 March 2014 and after that warning, they performed edits that added incorrect information then immediately reverted, at Margie Hines and Elbridge Bryant. It looks to me like taunting, where they can say "I did it again but I reverted right away so you can't touch me". In light of this, I've blocked Daffyduck1234 indefinitely, and I'm also going to block the sockpuppet. -- Atama頭 21:05, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. An odd case, I wonder if we'll see the editor again? BMK (talk) 21:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

What I wonder is whether we've seen the editor before. My sockpuppet radar went off immediately when I first read this report (as I said then), but I tried to exercise WP:AGF and then the person started using a sock, so maybe my instinct wasn't so much paranoia. -- Atama頭 21:38, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Their areas of interest seem rather tightly defined, so it might be worthwhile poking around. There's been a fair amount of back-and-forth about the Margie Hines date of death issue, but I can't recall if there was socking involved. BMK (talk) 21:46, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

There was indeed socking, and I was in the middle of reporting it (memory starts failing as you get older, you know). It's not impossible that our friend was this editor, who stopped editing a month ago, and who earlier admitted to being this puppet master. My description of the writing style of the master fits:

distinctive style of writing: one line paragraphs, infrequent use of caps, use of ampersand and other informalities, and they generally don't sign their posts. Their edits are generally helpful, but their writing is weak, and their attitude on talk pages a bit confrontational with overtones of ownership.

That's not quite enough to say it's a match, but it's pretty intriguing. My AGF tank's a bit empty at the moment, so I'll say that it's possible to interpret a one month gap in editing as an attempt to make their edits too stale for CU to use as comparison -- but, of course, there have been other gaps of that size and longer in the editing history. BMK (talk) 22:02, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Now he's editing as User:Ginsterama. Undoubtedly the same person as Daffyduck1234 and Sandboxxxxx. BMK (talk) 00:58, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Two more unsourced sub-sub-stubs created (Kate Wright and Victoria d'orazi). SPI opened at . Can someone please salt Buddy red bow until this blows over? BMK (talk) 01:12, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

And another Phil philmar. BMK (talk) 01:22, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

And now Marcus powell. BMK (talk) 01:35, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

And indef blocked by NawlinWiki. BMK (talk) 01:44, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

The sub-stub article Marcus powell just deleted by NawlinWiki was previously deleted on 22 August 2007 by Lectonar. Could an admin take a look at that deleted article and report who created it? It might help figure out if Daffyduck1234 is a known puppetmaster. BMK (talk) 01:58, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Similarly Kate Wright was previously deleted two times. Knowing who created those two would be good. BMK (talk) 02:02, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Marcus powell was originally created by Matt0012 (talk · contribs) on 22 August 2007. Kate Wright was originally created by BoopBoopaDoop (talk · contribs) on 20 October 2009 and recreated by Bayoneta (talk · contribs) on 9 July 2010. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:15, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

As I remarked above, Bayoneta is an admitted sock of BoopDoopaDoop (see the SPI report on that editor in the archive), who was allowed to keep editing after apologizing. Matt0012 is a new name to me. BMK (talk) 02:38, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

That is, Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/BoopBoopaDoop/Archive. Drmies (talk) 14:20, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

There's a big backup at SPI, so I don't expect to hear anything from that quarter for a while, but it does seem highly probable that Daffyduck1234 (aka Sandboxxxxx, aka Ginsterama) is Bayoneta, admitted sockpuppet of Betty Boop-obsessed puppetmaster BoopBoopaDoop. Why Bayoneta apparently stopped responsible editing to return to disruptive activities is a bit of a mystery, but maybe he or she missed the excitement, I dunno. I do think that we're currently at a standstill in the absence of further activities from this editor or results from a CU, so probably this thread should be closed for the moment, and the discussion can be revived if things pick up again. BMK (talk) 04:11, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

CheckUser requested - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:49, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

SPI was just clerk-endorsed to check for connections. BMK (talk) 23:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

A CU check found no connection between the Daffyduck editors and Bayoneta (who is the only known link to BoopBoopaDoop), or, presumably to any other sockfarms. Since there hasn't been any disruptive editing on this front for a while, an uninvolved party should probably close this. BMK (talk) 09:38, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and Sandboxxxx is Daffyduck1234, and Ginsterama is probable. BMK (talk) 09:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Post RfC actions of Dr.K, Collect, Moxy and myself

I'm requesting input from the community on whether the (post-RfC) actions taken by Collect, Moxy, Dr.K. and myself were appropriate in light of the results of a recent RfC on the Justin Bieber article. Long story short, I feel that they are deleting information which during the RfC was actually supported for inclusion by a majority of the participants (if you count). I find Dr.K's behaviour in particular to be offensive because he did not participate in any of the RfC's two surveys, and only after the RfC is closed, he starts removing information which only 25% of editors supported deleting. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 09:46, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Note Content inclusion in a BLP which is clearly deemed contentious requires a positive consensus - at this point only one editor seems to be asserting that such incidents must be placed in the BLP. As for his insistence that editors must "vote" on his point-by-point wall of text, that is just absurd. As for me calling his posts "wall of text" I invite anyone here to look at the length and number of his contributions and argumentation on the BLP talk page. WP:CONSENSUS and WP:BLP are clear on this, and this forumshopping excursion does not belong at AN/I at all. shows the edit at issue now -- noting that it gives much space to a "White House petition" which was deemed of no value except by basically a single editor, is the talk page discussion thereon. Gaijin, the closer of the RfC, specified that the material requires editorial consensus. One and only one editor says no consensus is needed for the trivia - and I suggest he may be in for a rude awakening regarding his one-man-consensus here, and the tendentious editing thereon. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:58, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

The point-by-point survey came about due to a call for clarification so that there could be progress. I think it's just lazy that you didn't bother to offer a point-by-point reply. The petition was discussed in the RfC as well, and there were other supporters, although it was certainly contested. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 05:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps part of the problem here is confusion among some editors about policy. One would think that BLP policy would all be located at WP:BLP, but there seems to be an important BLP policy that is spelled out at WP:Consensus and not at WP:BLP: "However, for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it." Perhaps this quote might answer the current dispute?Anythingyouwant (talk) 13:19, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Mm, since that bit has been part of WP:CON for a long time (june '12) it seems there is a decent consensus for that interpretation of consensus. I'd support adding it into BLP and seeing what happens. Regarding my close - clearly there was support for inclusion of the general topic of Bieber's scandals and how they are affecting his image, but the individual points were not widely !voted on (with the exception of 2 that had consensus to be removed). The lack of response on those other points brings up WP:SILENCE but as all of them involved contentious BLP (and some of themBLP that wasn't even about Bieber) it raises the bar for inclusion on those specific points. As far as ANI, this was a borderline close, with a lot of it coming out as no-consensus. Continued efforts to build that consensus are not a matter for ANI, but if there is edit warring or disruption, that is something for ANI. In light of the WP:CON snippet, it does appear that positive consensus for inclusion would be needed. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:39, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Although not perfectly aligned with the WP:CON snip above, BLP does already have something along these lines (although it appears to be targeted at the entire article, not individual bits of content). Perhaps the two bits should be conformed more

To ensure that material about living people is written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Misplaced Pages's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first, and wherever possible disputed deletions should be discussed first with the administrator who deleted the article. Material that has been repaired to address concerns should be judged on a case-by-case basis.

Gaijin42 (talk) 15:04, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out that BLP quote. It seems pretty clear that material about "run-ins with the law" is contentious material that falls under these provisions of policy, so it should all be removed unless there is consensus to include or retain (assuming it's all presented in NPOV fashion, reliably sourced, etc).Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:41, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Starship.paint did very well here...the majority of his text has been implemented because of the RfC. But there is however points that did not have consensus at all that were not re-implemented. Leaving out a poll and info on his friends antics was the out come of the RfC from what I can see. -- Moxy (talk) 16:46, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

These are my edits of the 19th of March, which offended Starship.paint so much that he had to drag me to ANI, albeit with a nine-day delay. I try to avoid ANI as much as I can if for nothing else than to avoid the drama. So I wasn't planning to reply to these allegations, except that I felt that I had to address his comments (personal attacks) about my "offensive behaviour". He does not seem to understand that Bieber's biography is no place for showcasing the results of what police found in his bus while he was absent. Neither is Bieber responsible for what was found on the body of his friend Lil Za. That is why I removed this stuff. I also removed ...and his graffiti also upset Australian and Colombian authorities. on the basis that "upsetting authorities" is a vague and comical allegation, unworthy of inclusion in his biography. I also removed the bit that Bieber's neighbours in Calabasas have accused and confronted Bieber about his reckless driving and speeding in the neighbourhood. as trivial and unworthy of inclusion in a serious biography. Residents are frequently upset with their neighbours, especially if they happen to also be leading the lifestyle of rock stars. And finally I removed: R&B singer Khalil was also arrested together with Bieber. What does that have to do with Bieber? I did my best to improve Bieber's bio by removing this tripe from his biography. After a nine-day delay and without replying to my comment on the 20th of March on the talkpage of Bieber's article Starship.paint brings me to ANI. He could have tried to reply to my points there instead of transplanting the dispute to this forum. Finally, as I remarked on the talkpage of Bieber's article, I find that Starship.paint frequently badgers opponents with walls of text. That was one of the primary reasons that I did not take part in the RfC. I simply could not discuss this tripe while anticipating to be showered by walls of text defending the trivia. Perhaps Starship.paint can be advised to try to improve the encyclopedia in more substantive ways than trying to relentlessly defend the addition of inconsequential crap in Bieber's biography and subdue the opposition with showers of text. Δρ.Κ.  23:24, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

• So now you're blaming me for not replying to your arguments, when your last post on the Bieber talk page called for me not to reply to your arguments because you know my stand well already. Do you want my arguments or not? starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 05:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• I didn't exactly tell you not to reply. I told you to wait until someone other than yourself came to defend your points, since this is a wiki. I had hoped that you would get the message that since after nine days noone came to defend your arguments, that your points were not popular. Now I see that the message you got was to bring me and two other editors to ANI. I am not going to comment on the wisdom of that action. Δρ.Κ.  06:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Pretty simple to me; you, Collect and Moxy are "regulars" of the article. It would seem that the majority in favour of inclusion of the legal issues in the RfC aren't such "regulars" editing the article. They apparently don't monitor the talk page, therefore they don't comment. If they disagree with me they can post so. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 10:45, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• Once I disregard #7, all of this information you removed was supported to be included by a majority of participants in the RfC. General survey had 12/17 supporting the inclusion of the legal issues, point-by-point survey had 6/8. How is it that it's possible for you to ignore participating in the RfC, then coming around to remove points after the RfC ended with a majority of participants supporting these points to be included. I just don't think it's right. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 05:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• The RfC results on those points were debatable. Even the closer of the RFC commented they should be removed. These points were demonstrably irrelevant to the BLP as I have stated before. We cannot allow BLP-violating, irrelevant, nit-picky, low quality etc. etc. points into the article just because the RfC results were murky. That would be an utter failure of the collective editorial discretion. Δρ.Κ.  06:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

"Debatable". Nice oversimplification. Imagine that you did bother to participate in the RfC's two surveys, and voted against every single point. Then 6/18 would be against the legal issues (33%) and 3/9 in the point-by-point survey (again 33%). It's a very non-murky "minority". Gaijin42 singled out points 7 and 13, not 2-5 (which you targeted). starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 10:45, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: WP:CONSENSUSis not a vote and your use of numbers and "votes" for your "list of points" has no value whatsoever, and the fact is that WP:BLP is a very strong policy which means that policy-based arguments trump "I hate Justin Bieber" arguments every single time. At this point, moreover, you appear to have a bad case of WP:IDHT which may well be addressed at this point, as it quite appears that tendentious point-pushing may attract undesired attention to yourself. Verb. sap, applies. Collect (talk) 12:52, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• We've been through this before. Given that it is undisputed that each content point I have tried to insert has multiple reliable sources, I bring up a sub-policy of WP:BLP, which is WP:WELLKNOWN. In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative.
• This is exactly what happened the last time. You bring up policy, I bring up policy, we revert each other, RfC was started to gauge the wider community's stand on this issue so that we could have progress. RfC concludes with more people tilting towards include. I know RfCs don't rely on voting, but this is exactly what the community feels, and I feel that Dr.K. in particular is ignoring that.
• I've already argued before how each individual point satisfies WP:WELLKNOWN, so I can do it again if you want, but you'll probably call them "walls of text" again and ignore them, just like how you've done so in the past. Tell me you want me to prove how each point satisfies WP:WELLKNOWN, go on. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 14:27, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• I feel that Dr.K. in particular is ignoring that. Please leave this nonsense. Repeating it will not make it true or put people in a zombie-like hypnotic trance to do your bidding. But I think I know why you have invested so much time and effort to defend adding this trivia which is unrelated to Bieber directly. The common thread between Bieber's bus inspection by the police while he was absent, Lil Za's cocaine bust and Khalil's arrest is that you want to associate Bieber with these events and imply that he is guilty by association. You want to editorialise: "Bieber's bus is bad, Khalil is bad, Lil Za is bad, everything around Bieber is bad, ergo Bieber is bad". The same goes with the rest of the events with the neighbours and "making authorities upset": "Bieber makes authorities upset, neighbours upset, ergo Bieber is bad" This is a WP:BLP-violating WP:SYNTHESIS project on a grand scale designed to attack Bieber by painting a synthetic angle using a patchwork of tabloid news fodder some of which is not attributable to Bieber directly. You want to create a feeling of malfeasance about Bieber using a collage of trivia. I suggest you abandon that BLP-violating approach or action may have to be taken so that you can stop targeting Bieber this way. Δρ.Κ.  17:41, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

This may all be caused because Starship.paint is use to writing about wrestling were the whole topic is fake. as seen here the topic its self is fuelled by speculation put out by the community to draw interest. Writing about characters over real people may be where there is a problem. Wrestling survives on guess work and made up associations, but the rest of the world does not work that way. I think Starship.paint does a great job for the kids that are interested in wrestling articles, but needs to understand that associations and things like public polls is not what we consider valid for real bios. The RfC was pretty clear to me that the majority did want to mention the topic of legal problems overall, but they also had reservations on some points as did the closer of the RfC. Need to read what people are saying not just look at there vote. -- Moxy (talk) 18:29, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

That's a fair analysis. Thank you Moxy. Staship.paint seems like a capable editor if only he could be guided in the right direction. Δρ.Κ.  00:34, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• So instead of countering WP:WELLKNOWN, Dr.K. takes a sidestep to claim that it's WP:SYNTHESIS. To counter this, let me say that all the reliable sources of these "previous incidents" that Dr.K. removed were only written when reporting Bieber's first arrest, which means that the reliable sources have made the connection between the previous and current arrests. Several reliable sources listed the multiple incidents Bieber has been involved in since 2011 or 2012, and they even listed more than 12 incidents in 2013 itself. How is it WP:SYNTHESIS if reliable sources can make this connection?
• And oh Moxy, you had to bring up my editorial background in wrestling? The notion that wrestling is based on guesswork is ridiculous. Also, you're again portraying my content as silly kids stuff again, hardly fair to me.
• I'd really like a third party opinion on Dr.K's removals and the current arguments on this topic (that said, I hope Dr.K. will reply to my arguments as well) starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 02:23, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Suggestion: When eight or more other editors do not share your position, you are unlikely to convince others by iterating your same arguments over and over and over and over in interminable walls of text. I suggest you take a step back, have a cup of tea and drop the stick -- right now it is apt to do you far more harm than good to keep this up. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:03, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• What Collect said. And some more advice: Here we are trying to build an encyclopedia, not a patchwork quilt of guilt by association in which we are going to try to suffocate Bieber's reputation. There is such thing as editorial discretion. Please try to exercise it more often. Also ANI may be a lot of things but it is not an editorial advisory board. Except, of course, if you consider bans or blocks some type of editorial advice. Δρ.Κ.  12:28, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Here we go again. It's really not the first time my opponents have ignored my arguments when I've brought up policy to trump them. "Walls of text", they say. Funny how Collect pulls out the number 8 now and previously dismissed all the numbers that were in favour of inclusion of the legal issues in the RfC (12). I simply stand by what many very reliable sources have said about Bieber, which counters your assertions of WP:BLP and WP:SYNTHESIS. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 13:56, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

You are reaching the point which some might call tendentiousness incarnate. I suggest you note that absolutely no one here is accepting your POV, that the RfC closer did not back you up, and that your use of AN/I for Forumshopping has failed as a hint, but it appears you need a stronger hint. Will someone please oblige starship.paint? Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:09, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

There has been zero third-party comments since Dr.K. replied. Again, I request a third-party opinion on the subsequent arguments on display; I believe my opponents' have been whittled down to asking for subjective 'editorial discretion'. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 23:30, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Seems to me that Starship.paint is a bit obsessed with this topic and ought to step back a bit, while Collect and Dr.K are wikilawyering. There is a ridiculous amount of sourcing about that petition from every sector, including an academic journal using it to criticize the WH petition process], legal analysis from as far away as India, Michelle Obama responding with parenting advice, a US congressmember complaining that Bieber will get favorable treatment because of his celebrity and wanting to change US immigration policy, a counterpetition supporting Bieber (opposing his deportation) and calling for equal treatment for other immigrants who get in comparable trouble (opposing deporting them too) (had to un-hotlink due to edit filter) documented by Fox News copycat petitions being started as publicity stunts, etc. There is more than enough sourcing to write a separate article about the petition all by itself. It seems to me ridiculous under WP:NPOV to not mention it in the Bieber article (one could reasonably debate about how much weight to allot it). Could a similar wikilawyering effort at the Bill Clinton article remove the documentation that Clinton was impeached? It undermines our credibility as an encyclopedia that publishes all the relevant info about the article topic if we have an article (as a deletionist I'd rather have far fewer such articles to start with, but Bieber is extremely notable). That all said, the RFC is kind of sprawling and if the petition is the main remaining issue of dispute, maybe it's simplest to open a new RFC focusing on just the petition. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 06:17, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• First you accuse me of wikilawyering then you embark on a lengthy rebuttal centred around the petition issue, even though I have not once referred to the petition. I don't call this informed criticism. Δρ.Κ.  07:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
• And can you explain to me how is it wikilawyering to say that what happened to Bieber's tour buses, while he was absent, is gossip unfit to be in Bieber's bio, quote:

• Police in Detroit and Stockholm each raided Bieber's tour buses in 2013 while Bieber was not present. They found marijuana in Detroit, and unspecified narcotics and a stun gun in Stockholm.

• Can you also explain to me how is it wikilawyering to state that what happened to Lil Za is irrelevant to Bieber's bio, quote:

• Nine days before his first arrest, police searched Bieber's home and arrested Bieber's friend Lil Za for cocaine possession.

• Can you also explain to me how is it wikilawyering to state that what happened to Khalil is irrelevant to Bieber's bio, quote:

• R&B singer Khalil was also arrested together with Bieber.

• In my eyes these edits are a transparent attempt to attack Bieber by implication using a web of unfair WP:WEASELWORD insinuations. Do you think this is any way to write the bio of a living person? Or do you think this is wikilawyering? Δρ.Κ.  18:36, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• You've got the order in reverse. A lot hinges on the Khalil point, which is not an attempt to 'attack' Bieber, but simply a fact of the case... was Bieber arrested (DUI of drugs) alone or along with other people? Then you have an NBC News report that nine days after Bieber and Khalil's arrest, Bieber and his friends/entourage were smoking a lot of marijuana on a plane.
• Under WP:WELLKNOWN we can include content by reliable sources if they are relevant and notable. Based on the future history of Bieber and his friends being arrested as above, the past history becomes relevant. Notable because Lil Za was arrested on drug charges, Bieber's tour buses raided twice on different continents, drugs found. There is no WP:SYNTHESIS here because reliable sources like Associated Press, Los Angeles Times, BBC News, CTV News and Times of India have reported these past and 'future' incidents together. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 23:57, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• Exactly as you mentioned above: Under WP:WELLKNOWN we can include content by reliable sources if they are relevant and notable. Yes, we can include facts if they are relevant and notable. Except in this case they are irrelevant to Bieber. Bieber has nothing to do whatsoever with Lil Za's drug possession, Khalil's arrest or with the fact that drugs were found on his bus. These were not Bieber's drugs. Or nobody alleged they were. Therefore they are irrelevant to Bieber. He was not arrested for them and no one accused him of carrying them into the bus. They are irrelevant to Bieber and have no place in his biography. And your comment: Based on the future history of Bieber and his friends being arrested as above, the past history becomes relevant., is still not true. That's still Bieber's biography and details about his friends do not belong in his biography because they are irrelevant to his biography. That's where your WP:SYNTH comes in. You want to convert Bieber's bio into the synthetic article "The sordid history of Bieber, his friends and the bus incidents". Δρ.Κ.  00:30, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• We are never going to agree on Based on the future history of Bieber and his friends being arrested as above, the past history becomes relevant. From WP:SYNTH, in this case the reliable sources are saying A and B in the same article. If they were so irrelevant why did many reliable sources report past history in current incidents? Let's just leave it at that.
• Also, you're neglecting to mention on the other previous incidents directly involving Bieber which you removed as well. Relevancy is definitely not an issue here. Multiple instances of neighbours accusing Bieber of dangerous driving. Bieber's graffiti upsetting authorities in Australia and Colombia. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 02:57, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• You wrote:

  ...and his graffiti also upset Australian and Colombian authorities.

• Well, as it turns out I checked the references and ctv news supports the "upset authorities in Colombia" bit but not "Australia". There is no mention in any source that the Australian authorities were upset. In fact the BBC citation mentions:

  The hotel, QT Gold Coast, said in a response to a comment on its Facebook page: "We are stoked to have Justin Bieber's artwork on our wall." It added that it had given Bieber permission to paint on the wall.

• So not only your edit about "upsetting authorities" is vague, trivial and unencyclopedic, but you added things which did not exist in the citations and also you failed to mention that the hotel in Australia approved of the graffiti and had given permission to Bieber to do it. That completely invalidates any culpability on Bieber's part but your edit makes it appear as if he had run afoul of the law because of his graffiti in Australia which is simply not the case, quite the opposite, since he was encouraged to do it by the property owners of the place. Your edit fails both WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. Δρ.Κ.  09:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• The Colombia bit said "upset authorities". Since Bieber wasn't charged but the Australian authorities did respond negatively, I wrote that he upset the Australian authorities too to summarise, which seems like an adequate summary when you consider that BBC wrote:

  Gold Coast City Council said it would order the graffiti's removal ... Council said that while the graffiti was on a private property, it was in public view and an eyesore ... "city has a zero tolerance approach to graffiti" ... Gold Coast Mayor Tom Tate described Bieber's behaviour as "really silly".

• After all, everyone's been calling on me to summarise, summarise, summarise the past issues of Bieber, no need for so much detail, so that's what I did. If you feel it's an inadequate summary then fine, we can have another reliable source by Huffington Post that says in the title Justin Bieber angers Australian mayor with his graffiti.
• completely invalidates any culpability on Bieber's part - so Bieber is not to blame at all?See BBC source: "city has a zero tolerance approach to graffiti", so what if the hotel approves? The city's approach still stands. I didn't add the hotel approval part, but I won't stop anyone from mentioning it as long as the Australian authorities' response is included.
• Therefore, while the following sentence is clunky, it should satisfy Dr.K's intepretation of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV: Bieber's graffiti also upset Colombian authorities and angered an Australian mayor despite the Australian hotel approving it. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 09:45, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• As I mentioned earlier, this is a trivial incident which does not deserve to be in the article. Even your present formulation is inadequate. Acording to the BBC:

  Earlier, Gold Coast Mayor Tom Tate described Bieber's behaviour as "really silly". "Just come and clean it up and we'll be happy with you. Alternatively come and sing at our mayoral Christmas carols on 7 December for an hour and I'll let you go."

• The mayor was not really angry, he was just playing politics. By the time this trivial incident gets explained properly, it is way past its WP:UNDUEWEIGHT quota for the article. And in any case, since the hotel gave Bieber permission to paint the graffiti, Bieber is completely exonerated from any responsibility, so by mentioning the anger of the mayor we imply Bieber was somehow culpable although he was not. Then we go to what "making authorities upset" really means, which I analysed just above and I think it is meaningless newspeak for tabloid fodder, completely unfit to be in a serious BLP. Δρ.Κ.  10:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
• As far as your coment: "city has a zero tolerance approach to graffiti", so what if the hotel approves? The city's approach still stands. No, it does not. You assume Bieber knew about the Australian city bylaws but Bieber is not an expert on international municipal law. And then, how was Bieber expected to know that the "city has a zero tolerance approach to graffiti"? Who is he? An Australian city-hall insider? The hotel gave permission to Bieber to paint, Bieber painted. End of story. Bieber had no idea that the city council would go after him post facto. He has no responsibility whatsoever. Δρ.Κ.  10:28, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• The mayor "not really angry... just playing politics" is your interpretation. The Huffington Post reliable source says that he angered the mayor, which is the crux of it; it was definitely a negative response. Almost everybody isn't an (edit conflict) international lawyer expert on international municipal law - does that mean they are exempt from obeying municipal law in countries they are visiting? The hotel is culpable as well, but Bieber isn't exempt. Ignorance or "they told me to do it" is hardly a good answer to disobeying the authorities. If he were really that blameless, this would not have been covered beyond TMZ or Daily Mail. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 11:51, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Topic Ban proposal

For User:Starship.paint for tendentious editing of BLPs and refusal to understand the significance and need for WP:BLP This is done only after the interminable postings above wherein the problem is laid quite bare for all to see. Topic ban to encompass all biographies of living persons, broadly construed, for a period of six months or as determined by consensus below. Collect (talk) 00:05, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Ah, so apparently I should be banned from all BLPs for six months because I am adding (mostly) negative content to one BLP, discounting all my other contributions to other BLPs (the wrestlers? Natalia?) My edits for Bieber abide by WP:WELLKNOWN, a sub-policy of WP:BLP for public figures. Unable to counter my policy-based arguments and counter-arguments, you have resorted to this. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 00:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

No -- but you seem to accuse anyone who points out the requirements of WP:BLP or acting in bad faith and collusion, and iterate your claims often and frequently and repeatedly at various venues, and open a clear forumshopping exercise on this noticeboard. I suggest you see how many will note your stridency here and on the talk pages of the BLPs you have been active on, and add two plus two. The aim is to make you aware of the policy and to abide by it, not to banish you, and hopefully you will find other areas to edit in constructively and without making accusations about every editor who demurs with your stated positions. Cheers and Godspeed. Collect (talk) 00:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

stridency here and on the talk pages of the BLPs you have been active on - have you even seen any of my contributions on any other BLP? And where exactly have I accused anyone of editing in bad faith? I'm sure you're acting in good faith, but I don't agree with your methods. You clearly want to protect BLP articles, but I think you're over-protecting by removing reliably sourced negative content. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 03:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Comment Given staship.paint's long and multifaceted campaign to add irrelevant facts into Bieber's bio and his continuing defence of his actions which show insufficient understanding of WP:BLP and specifically WP:WELLKNOWN, a fact that could cause harm to Bieber's bio, I think that I would be prepared to support a ban from Bieber's bio. I think he needs to take a break from that bio. This ban could be extended if similar behaviour arises in other bios. Δρ.Κ.  00:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

The legal issues in particular (which Dr.K. removed) were supported by a majority of RfC voters (12/17); I am merely the most outspoken. So all 12 of us don't understand WP:BLP and WP:WELLKNOWN, which warrants a ban?. starship.paint (talk | ctrb) 04:36, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Three week edit war over WP:BLP violations

I'm not a regular editor of this article about Ted Nugent, however it is on my watchlist and I happened to notice an edit-war over what appears to be a pretty obvious WP:BLP violation. A non-reliable source was being used as a source for contentious material about a living person. I have no idea whether the accusation is true, nor do I care. But we cannot state in Misplaced Pages's voice an opinion held by a non-reliable source (AKA an advocacy organization without a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking). Therefore, I have partially reverted the edit. I invite other experienced editors knowledgeable about WP:RS and WP:BLP to examine the issue. Thanks. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:57, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

I support this removal. Good work. --John (talk) 23:01, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

A Quest For Knowledge, better work would have been looking at the extensive RFC discussion on the talk page and at least acknowledging it. No idea why you posted about it on here, especially since that content was only one piece of the "edit war" that died down 10 days ago. --NeilN 01:54, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Good point, NeilN. Drmies (talk) 03:09, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

RS for the quote itself: Los Angeles Times, CNN, New Yorker. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 23:22, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

There is edit warring going on, its almost exclusively by Citizen150 who has been blocked for his warring multiple times on this article (and has confirmed socks doing the warring for him too). That warring continued today adding in unsourced information that the editor has tried to add many times ]. The "BLP" issue has been repeatedly removed by this user, and repeatedly added by a quite a few other editors. Its very well sourced that Nugent made these statements. Its also very well sourced that its been commented on repeatedly. There are the sources Finlay posted above, and a longer section in the body of the nugent article (see blockquote below). (And if the lede was a BLP violation, the body surely is too, but it remains) That quote misses the other statement Nugent made at the same event where he called Obama a Chimpanzee. There may be a case that this should not be in the lede, because of recentism, etc, but it was in no way a BLP violation. (Although the more reliable sources already used in the article should have been used in the lede section). Also agree that removal ignoring the RFC, and not mentioning it here, is very questionable, but does not rise to the level of requiring any admin action against AQFK. (Although the fact that AQFK explicitly !voted for removal in the RFC, and its pretty clear he is in the minority viewpoint in that RFC, but he removed it anyway... hrm, seems iffy).

In a January 2014 interview at a Las Vegas hunting and outdoor trade show, recorded by Guns.com, Nugent was recorded stating, "I have obviously failed to galvanize and prod, if not shame enough Americans to be ever vigilant not to let a Chicago communist-raised, communist-educated, communist-nurtured subhuman mongrel like the ACORN community organizer gangster Barack Hussein Obama to weasel his way into the top office of authority in the United States of America". After being chastised by Rand Paul, Nugent apologized for his "subhuman mongrel" statement.

Gaijin42 (talk) 17:22, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

References

1. Whitaker, Morgan (January, 22, 2014). "Ted Nugent calls Obama 'subhuman mongrel'". {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
2. Shabad, Rebecca (21 February 2014). "Nugent apologizes for calling Obama 'subhuman mongrel'". thehill.com. News Communications, Inc. Retrieved 22 February 2014.

Removal against consensus

Hi. Today User:Lightbreather has repeatedly removed some material against consensus. The latter removal was after three editors (including me) objected to removal. So, it seems like a pretty simple situation. User:Lightbreather claims that the removal was kosher because a different sentence at a different article was removed, which kind of seems irrelevant to me (the other article is currently the subject of an ArbCom case). I tried to make reasoned arguments, but they mattered not. A block for LB would be very helpful.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:18, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

All of my reasons are given in the very long (sorry, but not all on my account) discussion of yesterday (27 March 2014) "Suggestion that Nazi GC is an international concern should be removed" on the Gun politics in the U.S. talk page, and in the 20-27 March 2014 "International debate?" discussion on the Gun control talk page. However, I will be happy to answer any other questions that arise. In a nutshell, IMO: Anythingyouwant misrepresents the conditions under which the material in question was added to the article, and the "consensus." I suggested that he start an RfC on the subject, but instead, he started this. Again, I will be happy to stop what I'm working on to answer any questions that arise. Lightbreather (talk) 00:34, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I have a question that arises. Is it not correct that you reverted against the express objections of three editors at the article in question?Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:44, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

A block for the 'contributors' who see Misplaced Pages as an outlet for pro-gun propaganda entirely unsupported by legitimate academic sources would be even more helpful. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:32, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for not objecting to my request, Andy. Of course, when describing a political issue at Misplaced Pages, reliable sources that describe the opposing positions are necessary, and can be used without Misplaced Pages endorsing any of it, which I think is the case here. Unless our goal is to use Misplaced Pages for stamping out descriptions of one side of the issue, while promoting the other. Anyway, this is simply a case of ignoring policy in order to revert against consensus.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:40, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

On the subject of ignoring policy, I note that the assertion regarding Brazil in the disputed text is entirely unsourced - I suspect because the actual source for this appears to suggest that the "pamphlet distributed by the pro-gun lobby in Brazil" was unlikely to be understood in a Brazilian context, having been created by outsiders with little understanding of local issues - and of course misrepresenting sources would be against policy. And for the record, your 'thanks' are premature - I do object to your attempt to get someone blocked for supporting policies - which of course overrule any supposed 'consensus'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:51, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Andy, the removed phrase simply says that the fear-of-tyranny motivation for supporting gun ownership "is mostly but not entirely confined to the United States." If you believe that that violates any Misplaced Pages policy whatsoever, then I am dismayed by the incredible degree to which you are wrong. Anyway, you've only objected to one of four supporting sources, which says: "NRA-sponsored propaganda collectively worked to further the cause of pro-gun activists both abroad and at home". In what universe does that not support the statement in the text? Perhaps it would be a good idea for Misplaced Pages to slant the POV impact of its political articles, but in that case I suggest we get an additional policy written up, such as WP:Ignore all liberal bias. I emphatically deny any suggestion of promoting any POV at Misplaced Pages, but plead guilty to tilting against bias where I see it at this website. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:06, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Um, no, the 'removed phrase' includes a reference which quotes Open Fire, Understanding Global Gun Culture (I'd missed that it actually named the source - sorry). What it fails to do is indicate that the quote is cherry-picked, and intentionally misleading, as noted by FiachraByrne on Talk:Gun control some time back - the source states that "...the vast majority of Brazilians would have been able to make sense of the discursive appropriation of ... Hitler" - making the claim that the Hitler poster indicated a 'fear-of-tyranny motivation for supporting gun ownership' in Brazil less than credible. Such cherry-picking of misleading quotes is however par for the course for the pro-gun lobby. Still, I'm sure you can live with that since the POV being pushed isn't 'liberal'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:42, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Grump, I never I thought I'd hear "sorry" from you. The removed sentence obviously did not claim anything about Brazil or anything about Hitler. You're making me sorry that I ever logged on to this website, and I'm sure ArbCom will soon complete what you have started. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:08, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I suggest that you actually look at diffs before posting them on ANI in future. The first diff you linked clearly and unambiguously includes the quotation "he individual items of NRA-sponsored propaganda collectively worked to further the cause of pro-gun activists both abroad and at home. Consider, for instance, a pamphlet distributed by the pro-gun lobby in Brazil, which featured an image of Hitler giving a Nazi salute. The choice of image was clearly meant to suggest a parallel between the dangers of disarmament and the dangers of Nazism" as part of a reference. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

That quote is in a footnote. The removed sentence says nothing about Brazil or about Hitler, and if anyone would like to shorten the quote in the footnote then it's fine by me. I'm not going to be the one to shorten it, because it's a perfectly sensible and honest quote, and it doesn't imply anything that isn't true according to that reliable source. I honestly don't see any way that that footnoted source does not support the removed sentence of text, which is so obviously correct that I would be flabbergasted at this discussion were it not Misplaced Pages.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:18, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Um, no. We don't 'shorten' footnotes that intentionally misrepresent sources - we remove them entirely, along with the supposed 'reference' they are supporting, as contrary to both Misplaced Pages policy and elementary standards of encyclopaedic integrity - as Lightbreather had done. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:29, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Are we allowed to say "bullshit" here, or is that only allowed for the regulars? Anyway, I have nothing further to say to you this evening Grump. Have a wonnnnnnderful evening, y'hear?Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:35, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Our article text did not mention Brazil. The source does. Its one of four (?) sources used, all which clearly document that argument being used outside the US. If you disagree, and think the argument is restricted exclusively to the US, find a source saying so. Otherwise take your WP:OR elsewhere.Gaijin42 (talk) 02:28, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Pointing out that sources are being intentionally misrepresented is not 'original research' AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:31, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Two of the three editors (Anythingyouwant and Gaijin42) who objected to "the sentence" being removed are parties to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun control. Andy is also a party to the case.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:49, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Since you popped up User:Bbb23, perhaps you could clear something up for me. Does the ArbCom case cover Gun Politics in the United States or not? Had any of us thought that it did, we would have insisted that Lightbreather be a party. Maybe the case only covers those editors at that article who get in LB's way?Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:08, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

An Australian, pro-control source, also used as a reference, dedicated to the topic of control says "Internationally, the gun lobby is fond of comparing gun control agenda with that of Hitler in pre-World War II Germany". And then proceeds to give several examples of the argument being made in Australia. The statement is 100% indisputable, reliably sourced. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:48, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

A simple question: was the quote you mention selected (a) to accurately reflect the opinions of the author regarding the significance of the 'security against tyranny' argument in the Australian firearms regulation debate, or was it (b) selected to bolster claims that the NRAs argumentum ad Hitlerum has international support? Before answering, I suggest you read the source concerned... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:22, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I have a simple question for you Grump. Do you think that the check-against-tyranny argument for gun rights has been entirely confined to the United States? Hmm?Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:25, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

That has precisely nothing to do with the issue I have raised - that sources were being intentionally misrepresented in the material Lightbreather removed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:34, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Proposed resolution

I propose that Anythingyouwant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is warned to stop misrepresenting sources and stop forum shopping, with a clear message that any more of this will result in escalating blocks.

Everyone else seems to be keeping it mainly cool in a heated debate, and at least trying to stick to discussing actual content and actual sources. Guy (Help!) 12:59, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support - He has just inserted the "international" material back into the Gun politics in the U.S. article again. Lightbreather (talk) 18:48, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes I did, with the support of 4 out of five editors at talk page, and with additional language intended to address the objection from AndyTheGrump, though I doubt it will.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:57, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Obviously, I emphatically deny misrepresenting anything. Misplaced Pages will either decide to handle controversial political subjects neutrally, or it will inevitably be a propaganda machine, and my choice would be for the former instead of the latter. Also, please note AndyTheGrump's statement below: "I've not stated that it was Anythingyouwant who was responsible for the initial misrepresentation...." I oppose any and all misrepresentations in this Misplaced Pages article, or any other.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:19, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Obviously you oppose. But since you are (a) the subject of the proposal and (b) not an administrator, your opposition is irrelevant. Guy (Help!) 19:48, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I am often irrelevant. Mine is not the only irrelevant response to your proposal.Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:24, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

To be fair, I should point out that I've not stated that it was Anythingyouwant who was responsible for the initial misrepresentation. As for 'propaganda machines' though, the evidence is entirely clear that the whole absurd argumentum ad Hitlerum regarding firearms law is been driven by a partisan lobby allied with the NRA. It is also clear that their arguments are entirely unsupported by academic historiography, and are cobbled together - in a a "cherry-picked", "decontextualised" and "tendentious" manner, as one academic critic noted - not in the interests of promoting understanding that particular period in German history, but in order to influence a debate in another place and time entirely. That is propaganda. 15:34, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

The sentence that was blatantly removed against consensus said absolutely nothing about Hitler, and that sentence was manifestly supported by its four footnotes, as much as any sentence at Misplaced Pages could possibly be. Andy, why is it not possible to stick to the issue at hand?Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:40, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

The sentence removed was referenced with footnotes which used the words 'Hitler' twice and 'Nazi' three times. Hiding pro-NRA propaganda in footnotes doesn't make it immune to scrutiny. And 'consensus' cannot overrule policy which states that references must not misrepresent sources. That is the issue at hand. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Andy, you have objected to one of four footnotes. But much more than one of four footnotes was removed against consensus. As to that one footnote, you have not disputed that it is a reliable source. Whether it is being misrepresented depends upon what the footnoted sentence says, and in the present case the footnoted sentence merely states what should be extremely obvious to any neutral observer: that the tyranny argument is not entirely confined to the United States. This is not rocket science here, and at some point we have to (gasp!!!!!!!) look at the facts. More generally, are you saying that policy forbids Misplaced Pages from saying that the NRA (and others) have used a Hitler argument? Can you not see that describing "propaganda" is not the same as propagandizing?Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:02, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

P.S. This will be my last comment, so feel free to have the last word, block me, ban me, or anything you want. I felt obligated to bring attention to the recent defiance of the consensus policy, even though I had no illusions that ANI would lift a finger. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:10, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

(ec) Yes, per Godwin's law, it is more or less inevitable that Hitler will eventually come up in debates about firearms regulation. That does not however indicate that NRA propaganda on the issue has any serious credibility elsewhere - and cherry-picking sources to try to prove otherwise, in the absence of sources which actually state as such, is synthesis, and a violation of Misplaced Pages policy. The simple facts are that it is only in the U.S. that 'Nazi' analogies with firearms regulation have had any serious traction - elsewhere, as the Australian and 'Brazil' sources make clear, such arguments are either seen as irrelevant, treated with derision, or (as in Australia "the Jewish community finds repugnant and offensive, and totally rejects the comparison") called out as the grossly offensive abuse of the memory of the Holocaust for propaganda purposes that they clearly are. The sources are being cited to support a claim that the facile 'Nazi' analogy has traction elsewhere, without noting that the sources cited make it entirely clear that the analogy has been treated with utter contempt. Misrepresentation of sources is contrary to Misplaced Pages policy. AndyTheGrump (talk)

A bizarre post by Anythingyouwant on my talk page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Evidently, Anythingyouwant seems to think that it would be preferable for disputes on Misplaced Pages to be resolved by resort to firearms: "I assure you that if duelling were still legal, I would be seriously considering it" Since such methods of resolution are not only against policy, but illegal (and given the fact that we are separated by the Atlantic ocean, impossible), I have to assume that the purpose of this post was to intimidate me, rather than for any other purpose - and accordingly, I call for Anythingyouwant to be indefinitely blocked for behaviour entirely incompatible with both Misplaced Pages policy and elementary standards of human behaviour. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:52, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

As I explained to Grump: "there was no threat whatsoever. I seriously doubt that you would accept a duel, even if it were still legal, and even if I challenged you to one." Funny how he left that part out. Funny how he also left out his previous statement that I am a "patronising little troll".Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:00, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Full disclosure: I have often found Anythingyouwant's editing and commentary problematic. But I can't get worked up about that one. As you say, Andy, there's an ocean between you. How could you possibly be intimidated? Bishonen | talk 17:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC).

Actually, that is an assumption on my part - I have no means of ascertaining where Anythingyouwant actually is. In any case, it is clearly written in a manner intended to intimidate, since it can serve no other purpose. And yes, it is intimidating to have fellow contributors suggest that they would like to kill me. If this isn't 'problematic', I have to ask what is? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:56, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I do not want to kill you Andy, as that would be illegal.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:00, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

At this point, since it appears that Anythingyouwant is intent on continuing his intimidatory behaviour, I shall withdraw from this discussion, and contact the WMF directly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Whatever. I don't want to kill them either.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:11, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Is there such a thing as crocodile angst? At worst, this is an accusation of cowardice, which isn't very nice.Two kinds of pork (talk) 18:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Crocodile angst. Yes, apparently there is. Capitalismojo (talk) 18:36, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• comment: The dueling statement goes over the line. What if the statement had been "I assure you that if assault were legal, I would be seriously considering it"? I think it would have been seen as intimidating. At the very least, Anythingyouwant should be warned express to their views in less threatening and more civil ways. I am One of Many (talk) 18:41, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

An invitation to duel never resulted in any physical harm to anyone, unless both adults consented to it. Since this point seems not to be well-understood, I now realize that making the comment was a mistake, and I sincerely apologize for it.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:47, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

My two cents: I think much of this disagreement arises out of the ARBCOM delays in releasing a proposed decision for Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun control which was scheduled to be posted on February 12th. Granted that there are almost always delays, but waiting an additional seven weeks for a decision that might involve some topic bans means that editing in this topic area is still contentious. I'd like to recommend admins wait until a proposed decision is posted by ARBCOM to act but it's still unclear when that will occur. Liz 19:17, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

And in the meantime making violent threats against editors is okay? — goethean 19:35, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't think anyone seriously believes this is headed toward a pistols-at-dawn situation. (Besides, knowing Anythingyouwant, I think if anyone agreed to a duel with him, he'd immediately launch into an interminable, legalistic argument about the technicalities of the code duello until all of the seconds got fed up and went home). It's more like: if we've gotten to the point that one editor is yearning for the opportunity to duel another, then we're waaaay past battleground behavior—the editing environment on these articles is broken and adult supervision is required. MastCell  19:44, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

"I do not want to kill you Andy, as that would be illegal" (above) is pretty bad. It doesn't devolve to "I do not want to kill you Andy, as that would be wrong in so many ways" but more toward "I would kill you if it was legal (and thus I could get away with it)" which carries the strong implication of "I wish you were dead". That's a pretty hurtful thing to say to someone as well as inflammatory. Is the dispute really that important? Let's not talk like this, people. Perhaps a nice hot steaming cup of Please Be Quiet is in order for the offending editor?

On the bright side, invitation to duel at least indicates that the person considers one a social equal and fellow gentleperson. If he considered you a mere yeoman or townsman he would presumably just threaten to thrash you with his cane or trample you with his horse. Herostratus (talk) 20:00, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

The illegality is not the only reason why I do not want to kill Andy. But I have already apologized for mentioning duels at his talk page (see above at 18:47, 29 March 2014), so maybe we can move on now? I will even forgive Andy for calling me a "patronising little troll", if he would forgive me for mentioning that a duel might be satisfying in the present case.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:52, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• May I suggest you duel with pillows, or something equally undangerous. Perhaps a virtual duel in an online game such as Wii Sports Resort might be suitable. Jehochman 20:45, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Banjos. Writegeist (talk) 21:01, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Handbags at dawn? Guy (Help!) 22:18, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Its an encyclopedia! We don't invite others to "duel" in the manner done here, nor to continue to insult and taunt them: ("there was no threat whatsoever. I seriously doubt that you would accept a duel, even if it were still legal, and even if I challenged you to one"...according to Anythingyouwant.)--MONGO 22:44, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

As an honest person, I get tired of being relentlessly accused by AndyTheGrump of being a propagandist, a patronising little troll, etc, etc. I overreacted by mentioning duels at his talk page. I did not suggest that he would be a coward to not accept a duel, only that if I did propose one (which I didn't), then he could simply decline, with no injury to anyone. People who generously dish out heaping portions of condemnation should understand how offensive it is to the recipients, and such assumptions of bad faith have no place at an encyclopedia.Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:59, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps...how do you think we proceed now? Is an interaction ban needed?--MONGO 23:49, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Both should behave as if there's an interaction ban in effect, because if something like this comes up again, that would probably be the result. Jehochman 23:51, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I will. That is why I left the gun control article last year, and have not been back to edit that article since (I explained this to Andy today at his talk page). I guess ArbCom will address what's been happening today at Gun politics in the United States (that's why I started this section at ANI).Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:03, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• No wonder people laugh and joke about the petty politics and buffoonery that runs rampant behind WP's façade. Saffron Blaze (talk) 06:01, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Since it seems clear that Misplaced Pages admins are unwilling to deal with Anythingyouwant's intimidatory behaviour here, I should probably consider taking the matter to ArbCom

...though given their apparent inability to make any progress whatsoever on the 'gun control' case (now almost seven weeks overdue), I would have little expectation of it being dealt with appropriately there, either. Frankly though I am almost beyond caring - it is becoming more and more obvious that this whole farcical enterprise is little more than an exercise in vanity publishing, combined with the worst aspects of 'social networking', and with a generous dollop of corrupt and contemptible POV-pushing of the most overt kind (paid and unpaid - though personally I find the latter more obnoxious, as paid editors at least have the excuse that they have to earn a living somehow), all carried out without the slightest concern for the readers, the only legitimate justification for the existence (and charitable status) of the encyclopaedia. In such circumstances, the most honest course of action has to be to leave the whole festering heap of semi-literate, factually inaccurate and biased beyond all hope of redemption 'articles' to the POV-pushing drones, clueless Google-miners and fancruft-shovelling subteens, in the hope that readers will come to recognise sooner exactly what it is, and look for 'knowledge' elsewhere, where it might actually be compiled by people with honest intentions, and with the slightest clue regarding what they are writing about.

And for the record, Anythingyouwant's assumption that (were duelling hypothetically legal), I would turn down his hypothetical offer is at least open to question, given that (assuming said hypothetical duel permitted the challenged party to chose weapons, as is the custom in civilised countries), I would have to seriously (though hypothetically) consider the relative merits of having the opportunity to (hypothetically) run him through with a sword against the risks involved, and might well consider it worth the chance. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

The matter has already been brought to the attention of ArbCom at the Workshop page. For the record, User:Lightbreather has again deleted material against the consensus of four editors at the talk page of Gun politics in the United States. The deleted text is indicated by strikethrough: "Although gun rights supporters promote firearms for self-defense, hunting, and sporting activities, a further (and sometimes greater) motivation is fear of tyranny. The latter motivation is not confined to the United States, though it has gained little traction elsewhere." There was no attempt by LB to rephrase, to compromise, to save the footnoted reliable sources, or anything of the kind. This is what happens when jihad is waged, motives are impugned, and policies are disregarded.Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:30, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Then stop waging 'jihad' (interesting turn of phrase), stop impugning motives, and stop disregarding policies... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:41, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I didn't expect you'd notice that the stricken sentence is exactly what you asked for today, in between condemnations.Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:46, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I asked for nothing other than that policy be complied with, and sources not be misrepresented. As for 'footnoted reliable sources', it has already been amply demonstrated that the quotes in at least two were cherry-picked to 'prove' a particular POV, with complete disregard for the broader context which indicated the contrary. Under such circumstances, policy requires their removal. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:07, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

The "POV" in the stricken sentence is that the tyranny argument gets little traction outside of the U.S. Last I checked, that was your "POV" as well, and also the "POV" of the cited sources. Anyway, as suggested above by other editors, I will do my best to not interact with you anymore, Grump, and I hope you will reciprocate. Nothing good can come of it, and we both end up looking like complete buffoons. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:14, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

None of this "duel" nonsense would be welcome in a "civilised country," save in the context of your therapist's office. 76.72.23.170 (talk) 16:08, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

"This is what happens when jihad is waged, motives are impugned, and policies are disregarded." I know Anything thinks that I'm disregarding policy (I disagree), but waging a jihad? Dang! Lightbreather (talk) 23:10, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Potential section heading issues

I changed the heading of the previous subsection from "Since it seems clear that Misplaced Pages admins are unwilling to deal with Anythingyouwant's intimidatory behaviour here, I should probably consider taking the matter to ArbCom" to "Further discussion" citing that it was a more neutral section heading, and didn't contain an assertion embedded within it. Also it brought in line with policies. AndyTheGrump (who worded the initial heading) reverted my change. I feel that my change was correct and consistent with and directed by policies and guidelines, and that the version that it was reverted to is a misuse of headings. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:08, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

And your doing this is entirely unrelated to the fact that you have been a leading proponent of gun-lobby propagandising on Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with this, is it? In any case, your removal made a complete nonsense of my following sentence. And no, saying that Anythingyouwant was involved in 'intimidatory behaviour' isn't an assertion - it is a statement of fact, as acknowledged by his (half-hearted) apology for it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:16, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I acknowledged no such thing.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:19, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

So the claim regarding 'sincere apologies' you made at Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun control/Workshop wasn't 'sincere' after all? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:05, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I sincerely apologized for using the word "duel" at your talk page, I do not believe you were intimidated in the least, nor was that my intention, and yet we see the fuss it has caused. My only intention was to convey to you how upsetting your accusations and insults are, but I did it in a suboptimal manner. Anyway, as campaigns of demonization are often successful at Misplaced Pages, I expect you will be getting the results you have been striving for. In the mean time, can you please leave me alone? Thanks.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:25, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

If you want to be 'left alone', I suggest you refrain from posting intimations of violence on talk pages in future. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:30, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I consider character assassination just as serious as physical violence, and you have done a lot more than intimating as far as that goes.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:34, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

So you are no longer denying that your post intimated physical violence? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:50, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm done here.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:58, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• I collapsed the section above; Andy reverted. I've got no dog in this hunt, and I request someone else close this and be done with it.Two kinds of pork (talk) 20:45, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Update

With no support at the talk page of gun politics in the United States, and with opposition from five editors at that talk page (me, Gaijin42, Sue Rangell, North8000, and Darkness Shines), LB has declined to restore any of the following material that she has deleted multiple times against consensus (the deleted text is indicated by strikethrough and I previously quoted it above):

This deleted sentence is very obviously neutral, well-sourced, relevant, and concise. LB is not a party to the present ArbCom case, so I disagree with the reluctance of administrators here to deal with this issue until the ArbCom case is complete. In any event, assuming I am still around after the ArbCom case, I suppose the only option would be an RFC of some sort, if no action is forthcoming here. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive editor at page Whoniverse

The IP 41.132.48.255 is being extremely disruptive in a content dispute over at this page. Their actions include:

• Taking a near constant hostile tone.
• Refusal to negotiate to reach consensus despite several offers to collaborate (1, 2, and 3).
• Personal attacks (, , ).
• A series of grudge reverts against User:Mezigue (1, 2 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14).
• Block evasion (User talk:41.132.48.255#March 2014 and User talk:93.186.16.245#March 2014).
• Outright lies .
• Refusal to understand Misplaced Pages policies such as WP:RS, WP:V, WP:SYNTHESIS, and most importantly WP:NPOV (Talk:Whoniverse).
• Repeatedly removing the version User:Mezigue and I, as well as User:GraemeLeggett to an extent, have been attempting to improve, in favor of their own poorly written, poorly sourced, POV version (1, 2, 3, 4, and 5).
• Copying of large sections from other articles into the talk page .
• As well as the fact that they have engaged in such interactions before
• And adding unsourced/not notable "Criticism" sections to discredit the definition of the term that they disagree with. , .
• Along with modifying other articles to fit their thesis (1, 2, 3, and 4).
• And most recently WP:OVERTAGGING to "prove" their point

Notes: if anyone decides to do something about this, then a extended semi-protection of the page would be most effective since this user's IP changes regularly. G S Palmer (talk) 01:12, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I'm a little puzzled by this posting, given that the IP is already under a 48 hour block for edit warring (his second in a week; G S Palmer was also blocked for edit warring on the article earlier this week - they were at AN3 over the same article in mid-March, but were both warned). There is already administrator intervention, and there's no need to semi-protect the article if the single individual disruptively using an IP can be handled individually. I do not know if the IP will work within consensus processes after his block expires or if he will continue behaving disruptively, but it had been my intent to continue to monitor and hand out escalating blocks as appropriate to anyone who persisted in edit warring.
  
  However, I don't have strong feelings about this, and it's already been quite a time suck, so if another admin wants to weigh in or take it on, feel free. :)
  
  Because the IP is blocked, he cannot speak in his own defense here. Needless to say, he disagrees substantially with User:G S Palmer's account above. I considered unblocking him to allow him to participate and might still, but since this section is relatively quiet thought perhaps just reproducing his response to G S Palmer's notice might suffice. I'm collapsing it because it's long. --Moonriddengirl 12:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

If you will keep an eye on the page to make certain that the situation doesn't escalate, that would be fine. The reason that I brought this here was because I worried that once the IP's latest block expired the whole thing would start over again. G S Palmer (talk) 21:31, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I intend to, User:G S Palmer. If the whole thing starts over, editors who edit war will be given escalating blocks. It doesn't help that you do not come to this with clean hands yourself. Please read WP:AVOIDEDITWAR and help avoid muddying the issue. I would suggest that when he returns you ignore your past history or dispute and talk to him about the issues that he raises as if he were somebody else entirely. --Moonriddengirl

(talk) 12:47, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Let's set the record straight. The article Whoniverse was a rambling, unsourced OR mess. .

I posted this , and received this response .

I edited, making notes. I tried to include others , however .

So I started editing, leaving notes , and still inviting others to discuss it. After some time, I had corrected the article. Was it perfect? Not at all. But it was a first step.

Then, after much editing and discussion, User:G S Palmer appeared.:. This after a long discussion which he chose to ignore..

I tried to clear the air .

But User:G S Palmer was having none of that. I tried bringing up the topic more than once , , , , , , but User:G S Palmer would have none of it.

He has repeatedly removed a WP:RS......such as at , , .

He removed a valid properly sourced section , written by Tat Wood of , , , not to mention .

And yet he has no problem adding (removing another tag, and note his explanation. That's in the first paragraph).

He removes tags for sources which never mention the article's subject at all

He deceptively moved a RS which was merely usage of the term, and never described a thing .

He never bothered reading any Misplaced Pages Policy.

But that's no surprise as .

(The only reason I pasted Misplaced Pages Policy on the discussion page was to try and show him where he was going wrong.)

By the way, I brought this up before he posted this here..

The problem is that the article is still a mess of OR, SYNTHESIS and Unreliable Sources, And of course the fact that he use Lofficier's WP:RS in the first paragraph, yet anyone who actually Lofficier's words sees that Lofficier says almost the exact opposite to what User:G S Palmer states, then falsely claims Lofficier as a WP:RS for. 41.132.48.255 (talk) 15:15, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I hate to say this, but these points aren't very well backed up. This edit ("I tried to clear the air") wasn't even one of yours. I also don't see what point you are trying to prove with the quote from my talk page; it doesn't seem to say anything about whether I would read policy or not. G S Palmer (talk) 23:34, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

It shows my repeated attempts to discuss things. And the relentless dismissal out of hand by you in particular of any sort of discussion. Just as you have now once again removed a RS that adds NPOV and balance to the still OR article. . After .

As for the link, I'm not sure how that happened. I meant to add . 41.132.48.255 (talk) 04:40, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Please review my block of Macktheknifeau

Macktheknifeau (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is unhappy that the consensus went against him here. The outcome has been that editors have decided to use "soccer" to describe the sport in an Australian context. Rather than challenge the consensus in a collegial way or try to establish a new consensus or a compromise of some kind (any of which I would be open to), he made a series of edits which changed "soccer" to "football", the opposite of what was agreed. This is a sample. I have blocked him for 48 hours for violating WP:POINT. Please review this block. --John (talk) 10:42, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I've seen these edits on my watchlist and read the other discussions around naming conventions in australian sport. I agree that the series of edits Mack made recently are quite pointy, but I note he is not actually changing from "Soccer" to "Football", but from "Soccer" to "Association Football". As "Association Football" is the correct formal title for the game. My understanding from the previous discussions was that consensus was reached to use "Soccer" over "football" to avoid confusion with Aussie Rules. As the edits here do not do that, though they are pointy, they do seem to put the articles in a position where there can be no confusion and there is no issue over whether a "correct" term is being used. Fenix down (talk) 11:01, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

It varies. This edit changes soccer to football. This is the opposite of what the discussion agreed. --John (talk) 11:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, WP:ENGVAR applies. It's also called "soccer" in Canada, even though we have the "Toronto Football Club" that plays Association Football. DP 13:00, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• The entire discussion, in which Macktheknife participated, was to stave off discussion for a while to let cooler tempers prevail and work on other things than the name. The block for pointiness is thus warranted. Drmies (talk) 13:32, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
• Macktheknifeau's attitude was clear even before a consensus was reached. Their vote said: "Small group of Victorians can't be allowed to dictate changes to globally recognised name. Victoria doesn't have priority over planet." When Mack then defied the consensus, a block was justified. The post-block discussion between John and Mack is progressing somewhat. Mack claims that the anti-consensus changes they made were "inadvertent", although at the same time calling the consensus "illegal" (whatever that means). The last comment in the discussion is from John attempting to get Mack to have some insight into their behavior.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:49, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
• I've had my own run-ins with this editor over football/soccer-related articles (believe it came to ANI then as well), they are disruptive and do not abide by consensus or policies/guidelines. Good block. GiantSnowman 13:53, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
• I'm not commenting on this specific case, but in general, I think it's a good idea not to do a block and then ask for a review. Instead, please discuss before blocking. If the threat is so imminent that there's no time to discuss, then obviously the block is necessary and there's no need to discuss. Jehochman 17:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• I think it's up to the admin which way to do it. There's a spectrum between "imminent" and the length of time a discussion may take such that if one waits for a conclusion, the block may not be timely. It's not easy to forecast how long a discussion will take.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:00, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• Isn't it our goal to avoid blocks? If a problem becomes stale without a block, but isn't repeated, that's a good thing. If the admin isn't certain a block is needed then and there, don't do it. Discuss the problem with the user or at AN/I and see if a resolution is possible. If the user goes and does the problematic thing again while the discussion is ongoing, then block. Jehochman 20:39, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• I am absolutely certain a block was needed there and then. This has been discussed previously with the user and the user has previously been blocked once before for a similar but less pointed breach of policy. That block was reviewed at this board here. The general issues surrounding my enforcement of this area were discussed there and also here, here and here. I committed at the start of this process to having any admin actions taken in this area reviewed here at AN/I as a form of transparency and accountability. So far the community has been kind enough to endorse my actions in this area. If you have any serious qualms after reading these links I would like to hear them; if not I will continue to work to try to solve the problem. --John (talk) 22:07, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• Good block. This editor has engaged in exactly this sort of behavior before; hopefully the block will result in an improved editing process for them. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:41, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
• I'm not really a fan of this idea of block review and as such agree with Jehochman, but in cases of disruptive editing (rather than simple vandalism etc.) a block is often a signal, a word to the wise, and a review, if editors and admins agree of course, can strengthen that message: this was not just a block by a single grumpy admin, and the behavior for which a user was blocked is indeed deemed disruptive by a group of editors and admins. Stronger signal, fewer claims of admin abuse. Drmies (talk) 03:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
• I participated in the soccer vs. football discussion, and I don't think it would be desirable for me to express an opinion on the block. However, I support the unusual mentoring that John has undertaken to resolve the long-term bickering, and I support the idea of bringing blocks to ANI for review as an exception to what is normally done. The benefit of discussions like this is that the participants will learn whether John's actions have the backing of the community, and whether future claims of INVOLVED are likely to be successful in derailing the process. There should not be many blocks, and the time spent reviewing them would be much less than the time required to deal with the soccer/football war if John's mentoring fails. Johnuniq (talk) 05:15, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

It is very wrong to block an editor and then a tart a discussion about them in a venue where they can't respond. While it may not be John's intention, he has engaged in public humiliation as a form of punishment. Blocks aren't to "send a signal," they are to prevent harm. If you want to send a signal you talk with the editor and if that doesn't work, go to this board and ask for additional feedback. Blocking and then denouncing the editor while they are blocked is not fair. Jehochman 06:37, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Did you actually read John's post at 22:07, 29 March 2014 (UTC), especially the bit that said "This has been discussed previously with the user and the user has previously been blocked once before for a similar but less pointed breach of policy"? This is hardly a first offence by an otherwise perfect citizen. I have been routinely abused by this editor for being a member of and posting as part of some sort of evil group of supporters of another sport. He has been doing it for years. It is only John's incredibly thorough approach that is finally highlighting to administrators where the real problems lie in those discussions, and how bad they really are. Those of us who have been posting in good faith for years, and occasionally becoming frustrated at the absolute nonsense being repeatedly presented by a small number of editors, are finally seeing some justice. Anyone who bothers to have a proper look at what has been going on there, as John now has, will see the truth. HiLo48 (talk) 06:45, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

@Jehochman: Your concept is flawed. An editor who does not respond to comments left on their talk page may indeed respond to a short block -- that's just (unfortunately) human nature. That makes the "sending of a signal" a legitimate part of the overriding concept that blocks are preventative, not punitive. Not everyone is predisposed to talk about what they're doing, some have to be persuaded to do so with a bit of force. The choices to be made differ from editor to editor, and espousing a blanket policy regardless of circumstances isn't particularly helpful. You might thin about that the next time this kind of situation comes up. BMK (talk) 10:36, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Requesting a block for User:Thesunshinesate

This user has been busy constituting nuisance and fighting everyone on wikipedia. he/She seems to be here for his/her own personal agenda and he/she has been making articles to be biased. As I see it, he/she is always removing anything 'Anti-Ghana' and it doesn't matter to him/her whether they are sourced or not. Here are the following reasons I think this user should be blocked.

• Personal attacks - he/She is always against people who reverts her propaganda posts and she results to personal attacks, name calling. etc on the user talkpages. You can see an example of that at the bottom of my talk page in this revision. That was just because I placed a warning on her talk page concerning his/her disruptive edits.

• Gross Incivility - he/She reverts edits with flimsy excuses and never discusses with other users, an example can be found with his/her various reverts on Ghana article history. he/She reverts anything antiGhana in the article even if they are appropriately sourced. he/she seems to be the only one against the contents. Various warnings has been placed on his/her talkpage, but he/she is never ready to discuss the concerned article/content. Instead he/she removes such warnings instantly and instigates a fight on the users' talkpages. You can see the various warnings placed on her talkpage (including mine) by clicking on the history of the talkpage.

• Edit Warring: he/she has been reverting a particular content like since forever on the Ghana article. Other users keep readding the content but he/she keeps removing it. This is the Content. Please note that the other IP addresses reverting the same content belongs to him/her as the edit summaries are similar to the one he/she gives. He/she considers it "An anti government rant". I don't think this content should be removed as well as it is well sourced and I believed both the 'good' and 'bad' should be included on Misplaced Pages to achieve NPOV. Another example is the one she just started on the article Cinema of Nigeria. Note that this user has also broken the WP:3RR.

Thanks--Jamie Tubers (talk) 15:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

This user and his friend (Versace1608|talk) are fishing around to block me (He wrote to someone to have me blocked) They have tagged teamed on me for no reason. Jamie Tubers has made himself the authority on many articles and no one can dare to make an edit with him reverting. He has filled the Cinema of Nigeria with bias claims and invalid sourced from gossip and entertainment mags as his source of reference. He also game on the Ghana page

and reverted a claim has been disputed since 2013 me and several others have worked very hard on the article to make it neutral If you look at my edits I have not removed anything anti- Ghana like he claim ..claiming international accounts of corruption with no proof and adding references from entertainment sites in an anti government rant is not something that is suppose to be in an wiki article.

Those sources are not even approved based on wikis standards, this editor and his friend can not bully people for making edits just because they don't like it. He is calling my edits propaganda yet he has done nothing but glorify the pages he edit. I am not from west Africa and many of the other editors that I have worked on the Ghana page with are not either. I have nothing to gain. Yet the articles he has worked on for Nigeria is filled nothing but claims from unverifiable sources their edits need to be looked into. he edit that I reverted in the Cinema of Nigeria has sources from an online African gossip entertainment magazine. He and his friend Versace1608|talk are coming after me because I told them to get true sources Thesunshinesate (talk) 16:03, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

People should not gang up to stop others from contributing..wikipedia is an open forum I am not going to be bullied and threaten by these two editors and I don't think their propaganda based edits should be allowedThesunshinesate (talk)

Seconded. Also while I only very quickly skimmed through the discussion, this is not a good place to debate whether something is a RS. Try WP:RSN if discussion on the article talk page fails or use some other form of WP:Dispute resolution as appropriate like an WP:RFC. Nil Einne (talk) 21:44, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Simple edit warring complaints belong at WP:AN/EW not here and don't need anywhere near the level of discussion you're involved in here. BTW while there may be enough edit warring for a block I didn't see any clear cut 3rr violation. They are at the limit now but their previous revert before now to ths Ghana article was well outside the 24 hour window. Nil Einne (talk) 22:02, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not concerned about his/her edits or want to prove anything concerning their reliability, he/She can discuss that with the other contributors on the articles (If he/she will). I only noticed he/she is busy edit warring and always attacking anybody who warns him/her about it. That's the reason I reported the user. --Jamie Tubers (talk) 21:54, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• It was Thesunshinesate that raised useless and irrelevant issues claiming someone is out to get him/her or something. Good, you also noticed the edit warring was evidently very much. And what about the personal attacks he/she is always giving anyone who notifies or even tries to advise her on the edits?--Jamie Tubers (talk) 22:14, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• 3RR was evidently broken too. this edit, this and this were all made within 24 hours--Jamie Tubers (talk) 22:21, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• Yep, that's three reverts. Where is the fourth revert that constitutes a 3RR violation? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:33, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Okay. And the personal attacks and abuses?--Jamie Tubers (talk) 22:45, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

An editor can raise whatever they want, there's no need to respond to them if they are irrelevant to the discussion particularly when your comments are further irrelevant to the discussion. In other words, saying 'the other editor started it' is never a winning argument. And they are indeed irrelevant to this discussion, the reliability of the sources is no excuse for edit warring and should be established somewhere besides ANI (note that my message was directed at all primary participants of this discussion). As for the personal attacks, I had a brief look and their comments do seem problematic but it's not something I can be bothered looking in to. Consider this an example of the problems when you engage in long, irrelevant, argumentation on ANI before anyone gets a look in. Even if there are some legitimate complaints, by the time anyone knows what they are many are not going to bother to look in to them. Nil Einne (talk) 02:24, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• Jamie Tubers, Nil Einne gives you very good advice about ANI posting, but you did right to take the problem here. I agree with you that Thesunshinesate is confrontational and very sure they're right at all times (for instance here, where they clearly don't know what the policy says). As is illustrated by their talkpage and even by their input in this thread, which shows much assumption of bad faith. (I must say, when people talk about their opponents being a "tag team", it rings a warning bell for me.) Admins and others are watching now, and Thesunshinesate has been warned on their page. I can only see two outcomes of that: either they change their approach to editing and their attitude to other contributors, or they get blocked pretty soon. Bishonen | talk 10:20, 30 March 2014 (UTC). <Addition: Plus I've just noticed that their comments on User talk:Jamie Tubers have been even worse, with some classic template abuse (a 4th-level "harassment" template, which is ridiculous). Bishonen | talk 12:37, 30 March 2014 (UTC).>

• I just went through the contributions of the user and considering the claims of 'many' contributions, I had to conclude the user must have been editing anonymously as well. I went through the Ghana page and I saw that the previous disruptive reversions were made by anonymous IP addresses, then this user comes up to continue the reversions when the page got protected. This is really suspicious and a clear sign of bad faith. I'm very sure the following IP Addresses were used by this user (there may be more): 216.165.95.64, 69.120.255.161, 216.165.95.66, 24.190.23.37 and 69.120.215.121. I came to this conclusion because they have things in common with this User: the IPs made that same revert on the pages this user is involved in, the other contributions on those IPs (mostly disruptive) are similar/same with the topics this user edits and there are lists of warnings on the talk pages of those IPs (especially the first one) regarding the edits. I have reasons to believe this user infact only uses this account for protected pages, but regularly edits anonymously. I may be wrong though, as I'm aware IP addresses may be shared.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 13:30, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

You make good points, Jamie, though it's an exaggeration to say that the name account is only used when articles are semiprotected; it has edited several non-protected articles in the last couple of days. However, 216.165.95.64, the one with all the talkpage complaints going back to 2008 without a break, and several blocks, certainly quacks like a duck, especially if we consider the edit summaries. 216.165.95.64 writes "remove npov political attack attacks against current rpresident does not belong in encyclopedic article; and when the article has been semiprotected, Thesunshinesate echoes "revert NPOV anti govment rant with has no place in article". (Note especially the use of "NPOV" when presumably "POV" is meant, a signature for this user.) I was just going to block that IP for three months, when I noticed that Alison, a checkuser blocked the same IP in 2008 as part of a sockfarm. Alison, I'd appreciate it if you'd take a look at them now, in relation to Thesunshinesate and the other IPs. Their brother 216.165.95.66 doesn't have any similar bad history, and the other IPs you mention, Jamie, have IMO likely enough also been used by the same individual — they revert similar information, and geolocate to the same area — but they're dynamic, and haven't been used much, nor very recently (they're probably being used by someone else by now). Anyway, I hope we hear from Alison. If she's not editing, I will block the duck in a day or so. Bishonen | talk 16:36, 30 March 2014 (UTC).

Mass removals of content similar to what is being discussed here have been happening since last December. There have also been multiple registered users that have removed content that portrays the government of Ghana in a negative light, including, in chronological order, Citizen gh (talk · contribs), Exdogbaste (talk · contribs), and Medicineman84 (talk · contribs). However, Medicineman84 registered way back in 2007, and has made many constructive contributions. It is possible that there is both sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry taking place. — SamX‧☎‧✎‧S 18:01, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• If you asked me, I think the four accounts belong to the same person.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 19:58, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for your research, Jamie and Sam. I'm feeling a little out of my depth with this possible sockfarm. I've contacted another checkuser as well as Alison, who doesn't seem to be online right now, but if the worst comes to the worst, I suppose one of us will have to file an SPI report (groan). Bishonen | talk 11:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC).

• Interim report: a checkuser is looking at it. Watch this space. Bishonen | talk 16:00, 31 March 2014 (UTC).
  • Oh, I'm watching! this is SO exciting! Drmies (talk) 02:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Genre Warrior Andrewbf

Andrewbf (t·c)
The user Andrewbf is long-time genre warrior who has been warned repeatedly about WP:GWAR and has ignored all warnings and input from other editors. Never once has explained genre changes or tried to gain consensus. Does not provide sources to support changes. All attempts to communicate with this user have been completely disregarded, and this can't keep going on. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 23:24, 29 March 2014 (UTC)/04:26, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

@XXSNUGGUMSXX:, you need to provide the differences or links to show the user has been GWARing and that attempts to ask for an explanation have turned to deaf ears. Give the admins something to work on. —Indian:BIO · 04:58, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Here are samples: . User has received notices on talk page from myself , @STATicVapor: , @Jim1138: , @Lightsout: , @Etheldavis: , @Flat Out: , and IP 183.171.179.131 regarding these unexplained/unsourced changes. Every single attempt so far has gotten no response and user has not stopped even a 31-hour block from admin @Elockid:. As a matter of fact, Andrew quickly resumed genre warring after the block expired. Admin @Diannaa: has left a notice on the user's page, though I'm not sure how effective it will be given the user's dismissal of warnings. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 04:09, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I put one more "final warning" on his talk page and will monitor. Editing has stopped for now. -- Diannaa (talk) 18:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I noticed that, and thank you. It wouldn't surprise me to see Andrew resume GWAR'ing, though..... XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 20:02, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I have put this in my calendar and will monitor his edits. -- Diannaa (talk) 20:20, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I've noticed you blocked Andrew for one week. This should be more effective than the 31-hour block, which didn't affect his ways at all. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 02:33, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Notice of facts

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

To: The Administrators Misplaced Pages English language project "en.wikipedia.org'

Sirs

Kindly be advised and take notice of fact that the Registrar of your domain name(s), M/s Mark Monitor Inc, is not replying to repeated communications sent to them by the Top Level domain administrators concerning the a) libels against and b) impersonation of the "India Against Corruption". These notices have been issued by the Internet Domain administrators to enforce Terms of Use for registration of Misplaced Pages domain names, especially anti-abuse and impersonation clauses therein.

The impugned article, which can be easily viewed in India, is "paid content" written by a paid editor to promote various impersonators who are using "India Against Corruption" name, copyright and trademarks to solicit votes as candidates for ongoing Parliamentary elections under election tickets of Aam Aadmi Party. The continuance of these articles on your website is in violation of India's laws and also US laws, and constitutes "lobbying" and is a direct interference by foreigners and foreign agencies in India's democracy and India's democratic processes. The concerned WMF trustee from India is now well apprised of the dispute over this article and the public domain information of rampant abuse by Indian PR agencies to write fake articles on Misplaced Pages with connivance of involved Misplaced Pages administrators .

India Against Corruption therefore requires that the Administrators of this website/domain "en.wikipedia.org" take immediate steps, and not later than thirty six hours in any case, to comply with India's laws in addition to US laws, to disable publication of the impugned article within the territory of India, where elections are in progress and a model code of conduct is notified, promulgated and in force. The continuance of these paid promotional contents on Wikimedia Foundation servers, and in violation of WMF Terms of Use, for purpose of lobbying and influencing the outcome of India's elections by foreigners is a violation of the Hosting privileges accorded to Internet Intermediaries in India

Please also note that India Against Corruption has not initiated any "legal" proceedings against Misplaced Pages /WMF, and this notice of facts is not a legal threat, so kindly do not assume this notice to be a legal threat.

The IAC complaint to the Internet authorities is an administrative remedy invoked by IAC after the paid editor stopped participation, in Mediation, to discuss his edits, his sources or the unimpeachable counter evidence / sources IAC provided to rebut his malafide content and sources, thereby causing the Mediator to close the Mediation for reason of non-participation by Misplaced Pages community. IAC is now also in possession of emails from the authors of the reliable sources cited by the paid editor, which disclaim and decry the usage of their scholarly books on Misplaced Pages to malign our body. The 2 OVERSIGHT requests made thereafter by IAC for the defamation/libel and privacy issues have not been replied to by Misplaced Pages's Administrators either.

Finally, please note that we shall be using this IP address for future communications, if any. We advise you to kindly seek opinion of the General Counsel of Wikimedia before again taking any unilateral hostile actions against "India Against Corruption" as was done in the past.

"HRA1924" for India Against Corruption — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1640:5:0:0:0:3:BA (talk) 04:29, 30 March 2014 (UTC) |}

In response to the above, see Arkell v. Pressdram. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:33, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Private Eye lost eventually admitting "Mr Arkell has now, albeit belatedly, complied with the suggestion made to him at an earlier stage of the proceedings.". Landirenzo (talk) 07:00, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

The source you cite (a forum, so probably not RS) seems to say that they won. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:07, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Au Contraire. Snopes is as reliable an authority on exposing internet hoaxes as Misplaced Pages is as an encyclopedia :-). "nasw.org" is not a legal reporting site. Nonetheless, Mr.Pressdram verifiably paid up, Mr.Arkell took the money and went away, leaving Private Eye to gripe and spin doctor the sour grapes version cited.Landirenzo (talk) 09:26, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Post-close factual note: the Snopes thread concludes by noting that according to Adam MacQueen's 'Private Eye: The First 50 Years', although Arkell proceeded, the case fell apart and Pressdram received costs (Pressdram is a company, not an individual, it is the publisher of record of Private Eye). When they say that Mr. Arkell did eventually comply, they mean that he did eventually go away. This interpretation is supported by Jack of Kent. I don't know of any reliable authority for the claim that Arkell won, and it seems hardly plausible that the running joke would exist if he had, since it would essentially be libellous. Guy (Help!) 16:56, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

When one says Pressdram "received" costs, it means that costs were awarded against Pressdram. If Pressdram had won, it would say Pressdram was awarded costs. Anyhow, this letter is a hoax. 2A01:430:1A:0:0:0:0:217 (talk) 17:44, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Block requested

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

An I.P. editor 99.68.24.85 (talk · contribs) has made ten random vandalism edits in the last half hour. Trackinfo (talk) 07:10, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for a week by Hahc21 (talk · contribs). Vandalism reports are normally filed at AIV. Doc talk 07:42, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Suspicious edits

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

86.26.247.171 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is making suspicious edits. This editor is adding causes of death to biographies. He is doing so at such a very high rate that it is unlikely that these edits are researched. Some are blatant vandalism (for example). I suspect all of these edits are just vandalism, but since it is not obviously so, I'm reporting here instead of at WP:AIV. Slideshow Bob (talk) 14:11, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/86.147.28.111 for the background to this.  —SMALLJIM  15:21, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I checked a few of them and they were verifiable. I didn't look into the sockpuppet issue. I restored one edit with a citation, then decided not to do more, since I'm not sure the info belongs in infoboxes. In the case of Israel Keyes, the info (died by suicide) was already present and cited in the article text. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 00:13, 31 March 2014 (UTC) Added: you're right that the Carl Berner one is dubious at best, though Isaac Asimov died of AIDS at a rather advanced age, apparently contracted from a blood transfusion during surgery. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 00:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Severe canvasing and meat puppetry on Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Friendly_artificial_intelligence

Concerning Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Friendly_artificial_intelligence. This is not directed at any one editor, but referring to an unfolding process of canvasing on this deletion discussion page. The situation is becoming increasingly convoluted due to the calls on social media to help the page from those relevant to it and related to the poster. In a nutshell: the topic is mathematically impossible, which is why it has, in the years it was presented on the Web informally, and on this encyclopedia, had no technical peer-reviewed theory or proof in the literature. And the only two sources that are available are from a non-technical source that just happens to be published as a book of essays by Springer, which is easy to confuse at first glance with the journalistic quality areas of that organiztion. This was all pointed out and it was requested that notable sources be provided, but not a single valid citation in this now overlong discourse on the page has been brought up. The reason this isn't going to happen is because these sources don't exist, which any administrator will quickly be able to verify. I am posting this here because of the obvious canvasing and puppetry that is occuring, and that there have been claims made of bad faith. I do not wish the page to devolve from the focus on the topic any further and strongly believe administrative intervention is needed. Thanks in advance. --☯Lightbound☯ 18:07, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• The discussion has become a bit long winded but is on topic and well within civility standards, surprisingly so. I don't yet see any puppetry, although I would agree that monitoring is a good idea. COI editing isn't against policy, although it is good to note for the discussion. At this stage, there isn't anything else to do. I have faith the closing admin can weigh the discussion and the COI in order to determine a consensus. If a wave of new editors comes, they can be tagged as SPA and likely the closing admin will greatly (or completely) discount their !votes. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:22, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't think that COI is much of an issue at AfD, as opposed to article editing, where NPOV needs to be maintained. On the other hand, AfD is really all about policies and opinions, and if a COI commenter doesn't have policies to support their opinion, the closer is unlikely to put much weight on their comments. If there are no reliable sources, the article is unlikely to be retained, no matter who expressed what opinion about it.

    On the other hand, it's generally counter-productive to have one editor respond to every differing opinion with more commentary, as it creates the impression of hounding and of attempting to squealch further commentary. Best, instead, to allow everyone to have their say and leave it to the closer to put the weight where it belongs. BMK (talk) 22:29, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I wrote an essay on that, Don't bludgeon the process some time ago. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:33, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

(moved here from unnecessary new thread:)

I've been extremely civil and on policy over the long course of the discussion on the AfD page for "Friendly AI". I've asked for assistance from admins early on, and we managed to resolve some of the issues. The page was canvased and the responses became very long as a result. A lot of people came in treating it as a vote. Things managed to settle for a while. However, now, an admin by the name of Silence has come in and I'm not certain that they are acting in the best interest of consensus. I was dissapointed by being attributed as making statements I did not make, which were quoted and presented as if I had said them. This seems unduly difficult coming from an administrator, and I'm concerned about balance. Also, some of my comments were "accidentally deleted" as well, but I've still assumed good faith. But it is becoming more difficult. I've now asked if we could keep from addressing editors and stay on point. I also very politely suggested that we are at an impasse and to not engage in simple contradiction to help with brevity. Others are now ignoring the AfD status and attempting to cull the page contents to sway the AfD decision. I'm not sure if that is balanced, but it would be grand if several other eyes could help smooth things out. Thanks in advance. --☯Lightbound☯ 10:26, 1 April 2014 (UTC

Ihardlythinkso blanking articles in order to make a point

Ihardlythinkso (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Ihardlythinkso has been blanking and disrupting articles he has contributed to in order to make a point. , , , , , , ,

A number of editors have discussed this issue with him, but he hasn't stopped. I brought it up on his talk page, here, and got quite a response back. His posts to other users, such as Quale, have recently been way over the NPA line.

• "shut your fucking stupid baselessly condemning mouth."
• "fuck off, Quale"
• "(I don't ever expect apology from that SOB.)"

His response to me was, frankly, even worse.

I think a block for disruption and personal attacks is, unfortunately, warranted in order to prevent this sort of editing from continuing.   — Jess· Δ♥ 00:00, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• Edit summaries like this show he is trying to WP:OWN the article (or at least his contributions), but my guess it is spite more than anything. He can be blunt, but he isn't dumb and he knows he can't just remove his contributions to the articles. The third pillar makes that abundantly clear, as does the CC-BY-SA license he released the contribs under. He and I have bumped heads a few times, so I'm not inclined to get involved with dishing out sanctions myself, but an explanation from him is certainly due. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:14, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

"Blanking articles" is what vandals do, and I am no vandal. I have three (3) orthochess articles to my name, and any blanking was in error and corrected by me already. I did remove content contributions made by me in those three. On Elephant Gambit and Reti Opening, I removed my copyedits. (I have my own reasons, they have nothing to do with "proving a point", or "creating disruption", so you have no basis to assign those as intention as you have -- that's false, and springs from bad-faith. What readers of this ANI don't know and can't empathize with, is the way I've been treated by editors like yourself, User:MaxBrowne, User:ChessplayerLev (but that was a long time ago, but he never apologized for the bogus ANI and falsifications made then and attempt to get me blocked or banned, as you are doing), all supported indirectly by defacto project lead User:Quale, who has only disparaging accuses and false blames for me, and compliments to those who would attack and attempt to smear. (It's not very pleasant. There is only so much unfair treatment and bullying incivilities a person can take. That limit was pushed over me recently.) I won't be editing orthochess articles any more, as a result, I won't be able to return to project articles I've touched, to touch them again after having improved my editing skills. (Articles I've copyedited when I began here freak me out, how embarassingly poor my writing editing skills were then, and I've drawn the conclusion my skills will probably continue to increase over time, to the point where edits I think I'm pround of today will make me cringe in embarrassment again in future when I see them. I don't want those edits hanging around as permanent monuments to my mediocre skill as editor at that time. I can't return to ProjChess due to chronic maltreatment and prejudice by Quale to disparage me, and compliment those who would attack me. All of that is true for anyone doing the research. But ANIs are burning stakes, aren't they. (No time for digging the truth. Hang'em high!) I believe this ANI is nothing but the OP's assertion of continued conflict-dominance clashes with me at article Antichess and article Checkmate, and if true, a means to harass and misuse process. (Why does he care? No reason other than that. Oneupmanship. Need to assert superiority over another editor he's been in dispute with.)

The issue here is whether an editor has the right or not to remove their own copyedits from an article. If it can be done without disturbing other editors' contributions, then why should it be denied? Edit reverts are the same thing: an editor has changed their mind on leaving her/his edit in the article. So I have changed my mind on Elephant Gambit and Reti Opening. I have my reasons, they have been partially explained -- enough to know accusations of valdalism are wholly untrue and bad-faith by an editor who I've had content clashes with. p.s. In each case of clashes with the OP, I've withdrawn from said Talks to avoid drama with him. He's too aggressive and unstoppable IMO, and objective discussion isn't in the cards with him -- only forcing his way, and "winning". I've avoided him therefore, now he comes to my Talk to unfairly accuse, and open this ANI as further contesting with me for whatever motive. I suspect the motive has nothing to do with the health of the encyclopedia, but rather interpersonal conflict he revels in. I'd like someone to tell him to leave me be. I've loved Misplaced Pages and contributing to orthodox chess articles. But the hostility, false blames, attempts to smear and defame, have made the "collaborative editing environment" a joke of inhospitable abusiveness in my perspective. (Just symptomatic of the wider rampant incivilities and lies told and smears conducted against editors generally -- a civility problem WP has no answer for, but has become the encrusted cultural fact here long before I signed up as editor. I simply don't want to be a part of it.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:49, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

p.s. Dennis Brown's speculation of "ownership" is not correct. I wanted to remove my copyedits, and the example where User:MaxBrowne was excused for doing this at Chess.com by another editor, that he had the right to do so, was basis for me to believe or offer, that I have a right to undo my edits if I want. Nothing more. I have no desire to break any rule.

Myself, I am not the slightest bit convinced of the sincerity of your argument. But putting that aside and responding to your question, there is no rule against reverting your copyedits. However, once you make an edit here, you release your contributions to CC-BY-SA and have no right to deny the restoration of those very same edits. Others clearly feel the content is beneficial to the article. You have no right to remove it without building a consensus for removal. Resolute 01:14, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

My take on this is that Ihardlythinkso is always sincere. I'm not saying that he is always right. Cardamon (talk) 22:45, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, thanks for that answer. To clarify, I didn't assert at any time I had right to deny restoration. (I didn't know.) I asked an editor to not restore, that I preferred no restoration (and explained why). Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:49, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

At least twice you told editors to not revert a revert, with one of them telling the editor to go read policy and the other telling the editor they were in violation of policy. and So you were asserting that readding the material was against policy. GB fan 01:58, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

That's misleading. I was telling that editor that his revert of my revert was out-of-order. (The edit-warring template itself says to not revert a second time, "even if you believe you are right".) That discussion issue was over BRD versus BRRD, and whether his or my revert was the "B". So that is entirely a different issue than if I do or don't have right to deny (ultimate) restoration. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 02:11, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

This is classic narcissist / Diva behaviour. When Kkj11210 (talk · contribs), a mature and polite editor, tried to discuss the blanking of the chess articles, IHTS immediately launched into a bullying ad hominem based on KJ's youth. I am also fed up with having my name constantly brought up in the process of attacking other editors over incidents that had nothing to do with me. I honestly have tried to have as little as possible to do with this editor lately, but his recent editing has been extremely disruptive. MaxBrowne (talk) 01:21, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Cesspool stuff, MaxBrowne. (As long as you feel free coming to the ANI cesspool to accuse of narcissism and disingenuousness, according to your need to falsely accuse and smear, do I in turn get to tell you that your behavior is that of an unethical cheat? Underhanded sleaziness? Do you want to throw more insults and buy the house some popcorn? This is your element, isn't it? Cesspool. Mud. Happy as a pig in mud you are!) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 02:02, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Please take a break. After a day or two think about whether you want to continue editing here, and imagine how much more pleasant it would be if you and other editors could be nice to each other. Jehochman 02:38, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, he's taking a break whether he wanted to or not, as the above came after my having warned him not to continue with personal attacks; accordingly I've blocked Ihardlythinkso for 24 hours. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, I don't know about what happened in discussions concerning the Chess articles in the past, but I can only give my views regarding what I've observed in the last few days. From my take on the issue, it looks like user Ihardlythinkso believes that he has been subject to personal attacks in the past and that a number of editors are against his good-faith efforts to improve Chess-related articles. In response, he has been removing his early (and apparently bad-quality) additions while believing that such removals are beneficial to the articles. I didn't accuse him of WP:OWN since I was being WP:CIVIL, but I do believe that he was acting without awareness of WP:OWN. After the expiration of the block, I think that a discussion attempting to put behind past events, as well as a good dose of WP:AGF, will be adequate to resolve the conflict. KJ 05:25, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Ihardlythinkso has been editing for far too long and been embroiled in enough disputes to plead ignorance of WP:OWN or do edits like this. --NeilN 14:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

His responses on his talk page to my trying to explain why he was blocked are disturbing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:13, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Who's conduct I think is "disturbing" is yours, Bushranger. (Turning good-faith Qs of you, instead of according to your responsibilities re WP:ADMINACCT, into some kind of lecturing, shaming, baiting fest.) You obfuscated in every conceivable way and for as long as you could, to dodge answering two simple and clear Qs. (Until I had no choice but to give up.) Now you attempt to take credit for something not due you. I call that dishonest. You really take the cake. But somehow I think you don't care. (Is that because you're admin and see yourself invulnerable? My third Q also went unanswered: What are your recall parameters?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Your questions regarding the block were answered immediately; whether you overlooked them accidentally or otherwise is something I cannot help. What you call "lecturing, shaming, baiting" was an attempt to point out how your conduct is unacceptable for a Misplaced Pages contributor; again, if you refuse to listen I cannot help that. As for recall parameters, they involve something that you have proven incapable of extending: good faith. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

That makes no sense. (If my Q about the block was answered immediately, then why didn't you say so when I continued to ask the same Q several times, and complain to you that I'd not received any answer from you? Your RfA Opposes pointed out sarcasm and/or a pattern of your giving "silent responses", in the form of a complaint in that RfA about your behavior. I see now you haven't lifted even a little finger to make any corrective changes in that behavior, based just on what you've said above. Not good.) You have no right to lecture me, attempt to shame, condescend me at my Talk, when I was merely trying to get understanding of your POV for the block. You think you have the right to soapbox and lecture me regarding civil behavior? Boo to that. If we had a forum to discuss, and a moderator to keep our discussion reasonable, I can perhaps name at least a half dozen personal attacks and personal slights you made at my Talk. You have no right to do that to a good-faith editor trying to get basic info from you about the block you executed. That's bullying behavior, and abusive as well. I think you are not fit to be an admin.) About IDHT, sorry but my view is a competing one. It's you that consistently displayed IDHT, not me. And about your good-faith criticisms, just like the block you made, how can I appeal or address, when I don't even know what the hell it is you're talking about and your issues of concern have never been presented to me in any comprehensible or digestible way? In any event, though I'd love to discuss that with you, that will be impossible, because I'd require as mentioned a space to do it in, plus a moderator to regulate your manipulative and obfuscating communications. Another reason it won't happen too, is that the topic that caused the ANI was Mann jess's efforts to warn me from reverting my edits from articles, and when I didn't heed his warning, he immediately opened this ANI for purpose to stop said reverts. Now in manipulative fashion you seem to be re-drawing the essential purpose of this ANI to some never-defined "bad-faith" issue of your concern. Sorry but I was having no luck even getting a square answer from you about the specific reason you blocked me, let alone all of the abuse you have decided amongst yourself that I must suffer from your mouth. Does not compute. Another reason no discussion of your issues will be conducted, not only because of the lack of feature here to provide a space for said discussion, and a moderator to keep orderly, but I'm finding it personally soiling to have any contact or interfaces with you whatever. That said, I wish you would get the fuck off my back and stop your irrational baits. I've already told you I think you're a disgrace as an admin; you aren't changing my opinion by your further lectures and condescensions. What do you hope to gain here? (Get me riled so I say something off-the-cuff whereby you have another crack at blocking me? For a longer duration?) Pathetic. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 09:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear: you got a specific answer after you asked what the specific PA you had been blocked for was, where I said "you posted this over an hour after you were warned", with "this" being linked to your specific post that caused the block; and it was made within an hour after you requested an explanation. I find it honestly perplexing that you're accusing me of "re-drawing the essential purpose of this ANI" when my comment regarding good faith was in direct answer to your question. I have answered your questions clearly and concisely, only not answering them promptly when the questions were accompanied by (yet another set of) personal attacks against other editors. However, your conduct in response, both on your talk page and here, has been a sea of invective and personal attacks, including but not limited to comparing me to Mexican immigrant traffickers. From your pattern of commentary it's clear that you immediately assumed bad faith on my part, and decided to remain in that position regardless of any attempted explanation, instead deciding that any attempts at speaking plainly and clearly about the issue must be abuse, and progressively escalating invective in response to each attempt to explain the situation - and its consequences for you. Accordingly, I regret to say I can provide no further assistiance in trying to help you to remain a productive member of the Misplaced Pages community, which is what I have been trying to do all along, and instead will leave you with the same advice I gave another editor below on this page: when you find yourself in a hole, continuing to dig can only have one result. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 12:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Bushranger, I put in good-faith effort to learn the specifics of my block with you, and it was impossible to get any answers from you (you wouldn't give them, only lectures, condesensions, insults, attacks). At that point I gave up trying to communicate with you on the normal reasonable basis I give to everyone equally out of respect, until an editor shows me by their behavior and responses that I can on longer do that in good-faith. (In other words, you lost good-faith from me back at my Talk. I'm no longer entertaining anything you write to my attention with the usual good-faith care I give any and all editors. You lost that respect a long time ago, and I told you specifically the same thing on my Talk a long time ago. Now you are parading a paragraph to my attention, as though I care, and as though a communication link of question/response exists between us in good-faith, which it doesn't, and hasn't for some time. I've wasted enough time trying in good-faith with you. You didn't even give me the courtesy to understand the specifics of my block, before appeal time expired. That should have been priority with you, after blocking someone. Now you give excuses that you were busy or something, but that is BS Bushranger -- you are admin, and if you make a block, you should address the blockee if he is asking to understand for what exactly, when she/he asks. So I'm not buying your "I was busy". That is completely inexcusable given the power of block and role as admin at WP:ADMINACCT. The possibility of one-to-one communication with you broke down totally at my Talk as mentioned, and any pretense to others on this board that a conversation is still going on, or can go on between us over specifics of the block, or related Q/A, is just not the case. I've told you numerous times already that I wouldn't entertain any interface with you again, unless there's a moderator to control discussion, and a place to conduct said discussion. And you accuse me of IDHT???? I'm not interested in anything you have to say or accuse, without a moderator and a discussion room, Bushranger. I've found your argument & discussion style to be exceedingly manipulative and obfuscating, and I won't attempt to deal with that again, on my own. Now I've told you that perhaps more than a few times. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:52, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

"Busy or something"? "I was busy"? That proves that either you absolutely did not read my comment or are deliberately ignoring it, as I made no such statements and implied no such thing. At all. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:40, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

• So, while "classic narcissist / Diva behaviour" is just calling a spade a spade (as claimed on IHTS's talk page), "Cesspool stuff." is a personal attack warranting a block? Is this one of those Misplaced Pages April Fools' Day things? NE Ent 09:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• "Cesspool stuff" was not a personal attack. However calling somebody "an unethical cheat" who is engaging in "underhanded sleaziness" is, and when the person making those statements has previously been warned that any further personal attacks will result in a block, they get blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 12:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I did not directly call MaxBrowne those names. I was being rhetorical. He personally attacked me with "classic narcissist", which is pretty vicious and lewd and no editor should have to endure such an attack as that, and I came back to him with, essentially an argument: is that what he wants to do here? call names? does he want a name-calling fest? like me calling him ? is that what he wants? I was clearly trying to shame him for opening up name-calling, since it isn't logical, it isn't appropriate, it isn't helpful, in descends to the lowest-common denominator. So just like Basalisk did on my Talk, you pick up on that and use it as an excuse to block based on a civility infraction. His attack was clear, mine reply was not a direct attack, it was rhetorical, I could have said "do I get to call you Frankenstein's butt now?" or any other thing, it didn't really matter. I did not want to PA him, he clearly wanted (and did) PA me. (That said, why didn't you warn him? If you had warned him, perhaps I wouldn't have needed to throw out the rhetorical stuff to try an deter him. But you didn't warn him. You warned me. And I did not see your warning, I was unaware of it because I was busy responding to the ANI, and not going to my Talk.) The fact that you excused MaxBrowne from the PA "classic narcissist" by telling me on omy Talk that it wasn't a PA because he was just calling a "spade a spade", is the same as you making the same PA against me, Mr. Administrator, and that is not only unbecoming but I think is de-sysop worthy, since you should and do know better than that. But you likely won't be de-sysop'd for that, since admins seldom lose their tools and you know that. So you take pot shots at me by reinforcing the "classic narcissism" PA, because you can get away with it. That's just plain abuse. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 03:46, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Come on NE Ent, don't employ tunnel vision over this. There are plenty of diffs provided in this discussion of personal attacks from IHTS, from both before and after the warning, and frankly it's not the first time this guy has sailed close to a WP:NPA block Basalisk ⁄_berate 10:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Basalisk, ever since I criticized the editor who was your nominator at your successful RfA, you have gone out of your way to insert yourself in my wiki-life, and try and trick and trap me into a block. (For example, it is a fact that an admin called me a "mother-fucking asshole" in an Email, and upon knowing that, you went to my Talk and asked for the Email to be revealed at my Talk, knowing full well had I done that, it would have been an outing and an immediate sanction imposed on me.) I can diff several other of your posts where you bogusly threatened me at my Talk, and other editors came to my defense and chased you away. But you're still out to block me, or see me blocked. I call that carrying a long-term grudge, and is unbecoming of admin. You should self-evaluate better, Basalisk. You won't drop your stick. But tell you what, I'm willing to give you something and make you go away. I'm willing to commit to never using a curse word at anyone ever again. Just like Eric, when I've used curse words, they are by choice, not because I'm a lunatic madman not in control of my mouth. The challenge will be, how to get my meaning across as effectively, when curse words are short and succinct, whereas telling someone the same thing in more tea cerimony style is less impacting and "artful". But if it would make you happy, I'll promise to never use another curse word on the WP. Will that make you happy? ) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 10:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Well to be honest, I don't know anything about dating sites, but I imagine the wiki software doesn't bowdlerise profanities so that they can be included in articles for encyclopaedic purposes. Generally speaking the whole system is designed assuming that the people using it will act like adults. Diff away if it pleases you, though characterising a threat as "bogus" strikes me as a category error. I'm not trying to get you blocked IHTS. That's what you say of everyone who disagrees with you; they're all a bunch of fuckers trying to get you blocked. Just take a break from this and take it on the chin. Basalisk ⁄_berate 11:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Well I have some software background, and a table of article names could be exempted in the software to accomodate exceptions, that is all design-requirements stuff easily done. Adults swear Basalisk, more than children, so you got that reversed. Providing diffs isn't my entertainment or desire, Basalisk, telling you I can do that is a signal to you that you shouldn't challenge me on what I asserted, because I can back up what I say. (Your threat was entirely bogus and I can prove it.) I do not say about everyone that they are trying to get me blocked, that's a category overgeneralization, in fact I think I've said that of extremely few editors in reality. (But I know throwing BS overgeneralizations around at the ANI is consistent with the cesspool arguments and mud slung that is the cultural norm here, so you're fitting in real good with that. To me I'd be ashamed, but you and many others just love it. It's so tacky.) I don't know what you're advising me to do ("take a break", "take it on the chin"), Basalisk, I really don't. It was not my idea to open this ANI which Mann jess opened to stop reversions of edits at articles I've edited, turns out he's wrong about it, it was permissable to undo copyedits I've made to articles. I have no idea what you mean, and I don't seek your councel either, you just turned down a good-faith offer to get to leave me alone, I don't know how to make you leave me alone, quit calling me a child, I think you are the immature one, Basalisk. What will make you go away? Did you want to discuss Kevin Gorman here? This dialogue and cesspool tangents are abusive shit, and if you revel in it, you revel in shit. And I just can't fucking respect people who do that, you know. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:54, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Back to the issue at hand, Ihardlythinkso as was explained to you above you can not remove content from WP just because you added it, specially claiming things like "I created this article so should have a right to delete it (User:MaxBrowne once deleted Chess.com, and he as granted permission to do so, since he was author of that article", "Undid revision 601789037 by Kkj11210 (talk) a high school student reverts me??", "I am author, I withdraw this article". Incidentally on March 29th you breached WP:3RR on at least three articles (Veniamin Sozin, Fischer–Spassky (1992 match), Paris Defence) and should count yourself lucky you didn't get a long block for that alone. Your lack of civility only adds insult to injury and you should consider stopping while you are ahead. Just drop it, calm down and resume your editing in a few days with a cooler head. Regards. Gaba 12:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Those initial reverts were mistaken and repaired, and those initial editsums were written hastily in span of only a few minutes during a windown of time that was indeed emotionally depressing to me. I have already explained this. I have a cooler head now, but some things remain the same, and this venue isn't really appropriate to discuss it. It's my understanding going forward that it is resolved that an editor may remove their edits from an article if they want. (Not OWN, and not barring restoration by another editor feeling differently about the value of the edits to the quality of the article.

"You should understand that there is never incivility from me that some editor did not initiate by their own incivility" - this frequently repeated claim by IHTS is patently untrue. Here a polite request to discuss an edit is met with "give me a fucking break" and accusations of "wikilawyering" and "edit warring". And of course this edit summary is the very definition of an ad hominem. Not an "accusation", but a completely accurate description. Want more diffs? No, didn't think so. But they're there for anyone who cares to look. There are *many* examples of IHTS initiating incivility in his editing history, most recently against Resolute (talk · contribs) who attempted to offer constructive criticism and was met with a torrent of abuse. MaxBrowne (talk) 23:15, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, those were an emotional few minutes for me, I felt the editor was edit-warring, and that provoked me to some degree, but you're right overall, the incivilities were mine there, and they weren't justified. But that editor and I were able to discuss just fine, after those emotional minutes of mine. I'm not a perfect robot, and never claimed to be, but it is true that there are extremely few unproviked incivilities from me in my three or so year history. This incident was an extremely complex emotionally challenging time for me, and you found one of extremely few instances. To attempt to take that and generalize or characterize me as misrepresenting myself, is a dirty underhanded trick, MaxBrowne. And you are also the editor how came here and called me "classic narcissist" unprovoked. In our past history you have proven to me that your behavior is one of the most despicabe I've ever experienced from an editor, and you know tha we are enemies because of that history. So you come here as a foe to throw mud and mischaracterize and join a lynch party. Your "torrent of abuse" hyperbole is just that. I tend to think exaggeration and distortion are forms of lies and dishonesty, but apparently you don't. You seem to have gotten away with your "classic narcisst" personal attack without a block, but instead baiting me into a response where an administraor unaccountably decided to block me and not you. Has this emboldened you perhaps, MaxBrowne? And aren't you lucky that readers to this ANI probably have no interest to discover your abusive demeaning bad-faith incivilities chronically made against me in WT:CHESS threads. But I know you'll attempt to throw more mud here, because that's your ilk. But your behaviors seem to be supported there, and here, and that speaks to the abusive environments here, not to anything I've done. You seem to revel in this abusive environment, I don't. As long as the WP is as hostile and uncivil as it is, you'll continue to do well here. And you're happy with that. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:50, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Unprovoked? For once and for all, Stop dragging my name into it when you are fighting with other editors. Don't want me involved? Then don't talk about me.

It's good that you acknowledge that your attack on that particular editor was unjustified, but your claim that it was an isolated incident is untrue. Here you tell a new editor to "grow a brain". Your removal of the material was justified, but your uncivil edit summary was not. Here an IP's admittedly poor edit is reverted with the edit summary "dumbass". Please just drop the self-serving claim that you don't initiate incivilities, because you do, and frequently. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:22, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Well you're right again, that editsum was bad form. (Was it to an IP for an edit that could be construed as valdalism? Possibly. But one should give benefit of the doubt, and I failed in that case.) But no otherwise, if you assess unprovoked incivilities by me as "frequent" -- that's just not true. The incivilities thrown at me by you, have been frequent. The godawful threads on WT:CHESS where you chronically and baselessly attack me without end for bad-faith, and your essentially trying to turn a convention discussion into a personal attack page on me, shows your own level of civility, MaxBrowne. So what exactly is your logic here? That I have incidents of unprovoked incivility, so I should be indef-blocked? Where does that put you then? Will you self-indef block for calling me, unprovoked, "classic narcissist"? Or is it that you don't see yourself as initiating incivilities? If the latter, that is complete self-denial. Your editing history shows that you don't have any real care about civility, insulting respected chess editor User:Toccata quarta, for example. And all the unreasonable and out-of-line defaming attacks you've made against me. At least I try to do the right thing on Misplaced Pages, I'm not perfect. But you exploit the loose environment here, are heavily more uncivil than I have been re unprovoked attacks, such as the personal attack thread at WT:CHESS and your unprovoked "classic narcissist". Do you think you are applying your civility standards equally to yourself?! You once even challenged me that I was not qualified to tell anyone they were being uncivil, if there was any speck of incivility in my record. (How logical is that?!) But now you are accusing of the same, when your own record has plenty of it, and even in this thread. Am I supposed to find some logic or reasonability in your arguments, MaxBrowne?? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:33, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Want me to find more examples of unprovoked rudeness on your part? Because I can. "Classic narcissist behaviour" was my interpretation of your actions, based on a number of factors, including but not limited to (1) your hypersensitivity to criticism (2) your extreme hostility and argumentativeness over the most petty disputes (3) your flattery towards those who affirm or defend you (4) your absolute inability to see yourself as others see you. I've come across this sort of behaviour frequently on the net and I can recognise it when I see it. Do you not even see the contradiction in an edit summary like "fuck off uncivil asshole"?? Do you think WP:NPA and WP:CIV somehow applies to everyone except you? MaxBrowne (talk) 04:59, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Is there some reason we haven't indefinitely blocked Ihardlythinkso yet? Since 2012, all I've seen him do is jump into one raging dispute after the next and exhibit a level of IDIDNTHEARTHAT which a deaf person would find difficult to replicate. He seems to believe that NPA doesn't apply to him, as demonstrated above, and gets all up in arms if anyone dares to question anything he does. The headaches Ihardlythinkso has caused are way out of proportion to any good contributions he makes, and have wasted a tremendous number of man-hours from people who have to intervene and deal with the abuse he hurls at anyone and everyone. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Northern, I'm having hard time even imagining or conceiving that any paragraph could compete with your above paragraph, for being right-out-of-the-playbook for the infamous mob and pitch-fork generation for the equally infamous lynching that this board is noted for. (I mean, your paragraph is so iconic, it seems like a copy/paste right out of such a playbook. Cookie-cutter parody even.) The thing is, I don't think that occurs to you, because you are so like a pig in mud here, and that is the accepted cultural norm of this venue. (So, you have no embarrassment whatever for participating as you do, since you know your mud flinging, and torch-waving, will be accepted by other editors who over time have somehow come to accept and call normal this cesspool environment that is a magnet for peanut gallery abuse and drive-by incivilities . Because anything goes here. And you have no shame for that. ) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:36, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

That, right there, is probably the best example of someone failing to get the point that you'll ever see. Basalisk ⁄_berate 00:07, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't done, Mr. Basalisk. And your reference to a "point", is BS. (It's a call for a lynching, plain and clear. With shot-gun unsupported condescensions thrown in to dress it up. Can you summarize the "point" you're seeing to be there, Basalisk? Let's see your summary sentence of said "point". It is criticism and condesension. Mud slinging without a venue to back up what one says. So a free-for all digs and insults and accuses session. Pure cesspool stuff. And I'm supposed to methodically address said editor's concerns? In this venue? When he only wants my head on a pike? You like the tenor here to be one of free-for-all abusiveness, and if I don't receive the abuse like I'm "supposed to", then you have more attacks, re "IDHT". Not buying it, Basalisk. I think your thinking is confused and purpose-driven. You want no reasonable result, or you wound't have rejected the personal offer I made to you earlier. (You're complaining, I thought, about swearing. I offered to stop swearing in any situation on the WP, if you would only leave me alone and stop harassing, ever since you introduced your self when I criticized your RfA nominator. You ignored that proposal. So how is it that you think you don't have unclean hands and unclean intentions here, Basalisk? (BTW, you give me a headache. Are you happy about that? Serve your purpose? Joy joy joy?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:14, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

For a long time, I've known you to be an enemy toward me Northern, because I pinched your nerve for calling me a "12-year-old" in a bogus ANI that you closed, where I conducted myself as professionally as I could endeavor dealing with all the mud-throwing there. Because I went to your Talk and civilly objected to your comment "12-year-old", your response was to re-open the ANI on that basis, and you encouraged any admin to come in and block me. (That shows complete and emotionally-driven revenge, Northern, and how would that in any way possible be behavior consistent with WP:ADMINACCT or becoming of admin. Instead it shows to me complete abuse of your power as admin, and a disregard for "behavior at a higher standeard" as though that is a joke. You also kidded and joked and ridiculed me then, at your Talk, with your buddy and notoriously abusive admin Toddst1. Total unbecoming of admins. But you feel you have free license to do, because your admin badge is for life, and admins are seldom dysysopped here, and editors are under the abusive thumbs of admins like you, and you revel in that arrangement. I've not the first to claim the environment with admins of your ilk is corrupted and uncorrectabe, because said admins bar change through protecting their statuses, but surely "admin for life" is a corrupt concept to begin with, and fosters the kind of abuse of power you show so unembarrassingly. You're impressive Northern, as a model case of revenge-driven grudge-driven admin, doing what you can to fulfill those grudges, when opportunity arises. And many opportunities can arise, because any editor can open an ANI thread at any time on any basis, and then the doors open to this free-for-all mud throwing and torch-waving to service said grudges. A wonderfully civilized environment. You're part of what makes that environment tick. And you're proud of that. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:08, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I suspect it might have something to do with the 23,000 / 68% mainspace edits. The goal is to produce an encyclopedia, right?

I'm the first to admit it would be great if we actually had civility policy rather than a civility meme. Somewhere up there I'm accused of tunnel vision -- to the contrary I'm going to assert I have forest vision, and I just don't understand how someone can legitimately draw a line in the sand here and say that one editor's 8 meter "narcissistic diva" tree is okay but another's 9 meter "cesspool / rhetoric question" tree is block worthy -- even assuming we all agree as to measure the height of the tree. NE Ent 00:24, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

See again the part about continuing personal attacks following being warned that further personal attacks will result in a block. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:34, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes people just don't get along and it's best for them to simply stay away from each other. In case someone decides that's the case here and proposes an interaction ban between IHTS and Quale, MaxBrowne, Bushranger, Basalisk and The Blade of the Northern Lights, I want to make sure that we check various talk pages and add Malleus, Drmies, Eric Corbett, Sjakkalle, Dennis Brown and, of course, me. That covers the people baiting/attacking/wiki-copping/whatever against IHTS according to IHTS on my talk page. I'm certain there are more hiding out there on various user talk pages/article talk pages/ANI/etc. At some point I have to wonder how many people we can reasonably expect to simply steer clear of one individual before we decide a civility block is in order. A glance at IHTS's talk page seems to show that a 24 hour block for personal attacks generated more personal attacks, with only the slightest bits of light peeking through. Personally, it seems to me that the ratio of light to heat in this case has been appallingly low for far too long. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:38, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Which is why he should be blocked. If he repeatedly blanked pages, repeatedly Uses Vulgar language, and when he gets blocked, gives more Personal threats, he is obviously WP:NOTHERE. I feel we should just block or ban him, as he goes and tries to attack with WP:THROW. Happy Attack Dog (you rang?) 01:56, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not advocating any particular course of action with respect to this editor. It should be obvious that we're not friends, but I still think WP:NOTHERE is unfair. I think WP:NOTNOTHERE applies here, specifically the section which reads: "Difficulty in good faith, with conduct norms - A number of users wish to edit, but find it overly hard to adapt to conduct norms such as collaborative editing, avoiding personal attacks, or even some content policies such as not adding their own opinions in their edits. While these can lead to warnings, blocks or even bans in some cases, failure to adapt to a norm is not, by itself, evidence that a user is not trying to contribute productively." MaxBrowne (talk) 02:31, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

While WP:NOTHERE may not be applicable, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, and WP:IDHT are. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:40, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Block

• Support blocking, per the discussion above. And I'll third the notion that I don't appreciate my name being dragged up all over WP in disputes I have no part in. I've been referenced something like 15 times by IHTS in the last week, along with insults and accusations of bad faith. I've intentionally stayed away from his page and this thread to let others comment, and yet I'm still getting attacked. My very first involvement with IHTS was met with a stream of personal attacks which have never ended. This was followed by intentional obstruction, edit warring, and all manner of other issues, which completely prevented any hope of collaboration. IHTS is the first editor for whom I ever asked for an interaction ban in years of editing. I'm having trouble finding any editor with whom he's able to work pleasantly; none so far have commented. If he's unable to work with anyone, then he doesn't belong on a collaborative project.   — Jess· Δ♥ 04:05, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

User:A50000 at Soviet Union

The only edits that A50000 (talk · contribs) has performed this year have been to repeatedly edit war over the labeling of the subject of Soviet Union (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) as either a "socialist state" (the current form) or as a "communist state" (the form he keeps restoring) . After the March 20 (at least in my timezone) edit, I informed him on his talk page that he should raise the issue on the talk page but he seems to have ignored that and made another edit in the past 24 hours to restore his preferred version. These have been his only actions on Misplaced Pages in what is essentially a year, and he has been blocked for disrupting articles relating to communism and socialism in the past. He only seems to respond in the edit summaries and has apparently paid no heed to the message that I left him on his user talk page. Based on this current disruption and past disruption, I believe that A50000 should be topic banned from topics relating to communism, broadly construed.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• This is a single-purpose account, whose purpose I cannot clearly discern (their comments in edit summaries and on talk pages are a bit cryptic, though one gets a clear-enough hint here and here) but whose methods are not acceptable. Sources, if they are ever provided, are terrible, and many of the talk page comments (like this) combine borderline trolling with personal attacks. A topic ban is a possibility, but given the soapboxy, unsourced, disruptive, edit-warriorlike edits made by this user, an indefinte block (not infinite, of course) is the best option. I'd love to hear some more opinions, but that's what I think I'm going to do unless I am swayed otherwise. Drmies (talk) 14:24, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Harassment

I consider I am the victim of harassment by user AfadsBad. It has been going on for some time but has become more intrusive recently. It seems to be designed to ridicule and discourage me and it is spoiling my enjoyment of editing on Misplaced Pages.

Here are some examples:

• DYK nomination for Tripedalia cystophora
• DYK nomination for Euglossa dilemma
• AfadsBad's talk page My name and reputation gets dragged into a discussion where the subject is something else entirely. User HalfGig was also harassed and stopped editing after this incident.
• AfadsBad's talk page again I ask for guidance on my errors but do not receive it.

The harassment is not confined to Misplaced Pages but also takes place off-wiki at AfadsBad's blog and on general discussion forums such as http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4131 . I do not believe I have ever been anything but polite to AfadsBad and would like to be left alone to edit in peace. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:59, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I won't be visiting one of the above external links, but I find the wordpress blog entry that names-and-shames a fellow community member to be beyond the pale. Human beings just don't do that to fellow human beings, but alas it's become so easy to trash people on the internet with so little fear of reprisal DP 09:12, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Comment: AfadsBad has had been briefly helpful in two recent questions that I have asked of her, but most of my interaction with her to date has been unduly negative and tediously pedantic. The harassment of Cwmhiraeth is not a singular case, as there has been harassment and negative communications with several other editors, however, AfadsBad seems to have a special obsession with Cwmhiraeth that has verged onto being pathological and inimical to the collaborative spirit of Misplaced Pages. It has been going on relentlessly for about 7 or 8 months that I've seen it, and a lot of the argument is the same tune from a broken record. The argument wears a little thin--some editors find that there's little meat on the bone for her ranting and usually tune out, but the relentlessness of it contributes to driving users away, making contributing unpleasant, and that is unacceptable. I'm convinced that AfadsBad is the current name of a user who has been blocked a few times previously for similar harassment issues, although I do not have the tools to confirm it. I've mentioned to AfadsBad on her talk page that she should be more willing to collaborate with others, including Cwmhiraeth, but that advice was quickly dismissed. Likewise advice to correct errors in the collaborative spirit has been similarly dismissed. The fact that this harassment has expanded to include lambasting Cwmhiraeth's work offsite, especially at Wikipediocracy in what has the appearance of canvassing or suborning an endorsement for her continued harassment, is troublesome. As far as I see it, AfadsBad should have a one-way interaction ban from contacting Cwmhiraeth which includes the order to stop dragging her name through the mud elsewhere. If AfadsBad in her time as an underemployed scholar wants to continue bullying Cwmhiraeth, or wants to persist to criticize from the sidelines without collaboration or improving the project, she should find another hobby and be shown the door. Sorry, AfadsBad, but when it comes to several users who have said collaborate and play nice, it's time to "put up or shut up".--ColonelHenry (talk) 13:33, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I consider this a tragic situation. When AfadsBad first began editing, she made a real contribution in science-related areas. But the collaborative editing style of Misplaced Pages means that "expert" edits can be undone by others who might not be as knowledgeable. The fact is that a few editors can determine consensus which might not be factually accurate, it's just an edit that editors have, more or less, agreed with. So, she felt her knowledge was unappreciated and she has been complaining about Misplaced Pages's coverage of science subjects since Fall 2013. I don't know the particulars of this editor interaction, just thought I'd fill in some of the backstory. Liz 16:03, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I love the little dig about being an "underemployed scholar". Saffron Blaze (talk) 17:34, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Lol, I am not going to read all this. "Underemployed scholar?" Lol.

Anyway, Cwmhiraeth cannot accurately place information in Misplaced Pages, and her level of knowledge is frequently too low to communicate what is wrong to her, like why C4 and CAM photosynthesis have different names. Every article of hers has made up information, inaccurate information, random pieces of information that give undue weight to what she has added, and plagiarism. Her main sources are usually too old, and she cannot overcome the problems of the disagreements between 1963 taxomony books and advances in modern biochemistry. She does not repair articles when she can understand what is wrong, and continues adding the same errors.

Go ahead, check her articles against their sources. "Tropical Southern Ocean," "no cacti have leaves," "CAM and C4 photosynthesis are identical," the sea disaster corrected after it was off the main page.

Since we are supposed to be writing an encyclopedia here, it is surprising that Misplaced Pages editors and admins would fight to keep 1300 bad science articles on Misplaced Pages with made up science and taxonomies in them and want to continue adding them.

WikiCup Ahoy! And onward Essjay! Or whatever his name was, he has good company with WikiScholar Cwmhiraeth. Her articles are passed and passed to the main page based on the strength of her having written so many, she doesn't claim expertise, but Misplaced Pages editorial superiority over the "underemployed scholar." Expertise exhibited. Taxonomy for Dummies, anyone?

Correcting bad science is harassment? So what is making up 1300+ main page articles for probably millions of hits, replacement of accurate science in Google search results with fantasy taxonomies, and making a mockery of an encyclopedia?

And Colonel Henry demanding that intrusive liquid metasediments intruding imaginary rocks is a Good Article?

You don't need experts, just qualified ninth graders.

--(AfadsBad (talk) 18:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC))

AfadsBad, what you just wrote is completely inappropriate as it highly violates WP:NPA. However frustrated you might be with a user, do not under any circumstances patronize him/her. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 18:17, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Can I retract and call her an "unemployed scholar?" --(AfadsBad (talk) 18:22, 31 March 2014 (UTC))

Criticising poor article quality is not a personal attack in my book. Andreas JN466 20:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

(non-admin comment) I would just comment that AfadsBad's user page also does appear to break NPA where he has this on it: "But, meanwhile, we have editors, User:Cwmhiraeth (see my talk page, she knows, can't be bothered to stop or correct), making up information to be able to write Did You Know articles on topics that they don't know, so, I guess plagiarizing and sourcing to an anonymous science blog is kinda low on the list of offenses." The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 22:08, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Lol. Pointing out plagiarism and fake science on Misplaced Pages is a personal attack? --(AfadsBad (talk) 23:56, 31 March 2014 (UTC))

This is an encyclopedia project, not a vanity exercise. If someone with a science background says there are major problems with the science in those articles, you should first of all look at that, and find out if it's true. Because if it is, then neither Misplaced Pages nor the public are being served by sweeping it under the rug. There has certainly been precedent of AfadsBad's critiques of DYK science content being very well founded. Mind you, AN/I probably is hardly the right venue for that discussion. (I'd suggest Misplaced Pages:Editor review or an WP:RfC/U; and, for the avoidance of doubt, not for AfadsBad, but for the editor whose work is being critiqued.) Andreas JN466 00:04, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Note: Jayen466 is associated with AfadsBad (enwikibadscience) through their participation at Wikipediocracy.--ColonelHenry (talk) 04:22, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Although I think we don't like each other there, but I may be getting him or her mixed up with someone else. --(AfadsBad (talk) 04:48, 1 April 2014 (UTC))

We shouldn't go for guilt by association. When Andreas speaks it's usually worth listening to him. The point that we should look carefully at what AfadsBad is arguing is valid. The manner in which they do it, well, let's just say, very diplomatically, that I have problems with it.

They have indicted me too in front of the Wikipediocracy inquisition, pointing to this edit (I think it was intended as ammunition for Eric Barbour's "Indict Drmies" mission), saying that apparently I think that "a guy's website (peakbaggers.com) is a reliable source for naming a mountain". They kind of missed the fact that it's not really "a guy's website", and that Wikipedians apparently deem the website notable enough to have a template citing it (Template:Cite peakbagger). So yeah, some of Afadsbad's comments may well be worth taking to heart, but they also have a tendency to shoot from the hip and miss.

But Andreas, the problem here is also the manner in which these things are brought up. There are helpful ways and there are shitty ways, and unfortunately that DYK brought things (some of which were not valid, or easily fixed) up in a shitty way. Drmies (talk) 18:15, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

It is just a guy's website, and he has no problems with that. While I use the information for climbing, I am prohibited from using anything on it for rescues because it is considered a hobby website and known to be an unreliable source as to names, locations, and altitudes. "Peakbagger.com is a unprofessional, non-commerical web site that is both a hobby and a place for me to post some of the mountain-related information I have collected over the past 30 years." It's more an ANI comment than an indictment, but, you may consider it what you like.

As to bringing things up in a shitty way, check out how I started at the GA for Desert and this is the response I got, "Thank you for your comments, AfadsBad. I will consider the points you raise and make alterations where I think they are required, but please do not remove chunks of sourced information as you did with the sentence on cacti, thereby interrupting the flow of the text. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:14, 28 September 2013 (UTC)" The chunks of text I removed was misinformation; it is not true that all cactic don't have leaves, and no sources said that. I removed the misinformation about C4 plants being just like CAM plants, and Cwmhiraeth reverted the removal and claimed that it was true, again. And, in addition, also claimed that this information was sourced. She does not listen to corrections, and the only reason she is paying attention now is because of her claims, and now yours, about my "shitty way of bringing things up." Does any one on Misplaced Pages care that the content is wrong? I tried just stating that it was wrong. I was insulted and scolded as if I was an incompetent child interfering with someone's owned article, and the bad information was returned to the article, again claiming it was sourced. Misplaced Pages editors write essays about how perceived experts are treated on Misplaced Pages, and it really does represent a problem.

The article Pedra da Gávea was the worst geology writing I have ever seen on Misplaced Pages; even a hoax would have been an improvement. It was promoted to Good Article with ridiculous absurdities, liquid flows of rocks that had never melted moving into rocks that would not exist for another 600 million years. When I pointed out, however badly, how ridiculous the article was, ColonelHenry insisted that my rant was not worth paying attention to because he had correctly followed procedures to promote it to Good Article. The important thing was to get this ridiculous joke of an article out of article space. But, the least followed policy and least important policy on Misplaced Pages appears to be WP:Verifiability. Made up information, if made up by a popular editor, trumps verifiability every time.

I think putting an article like that in article space is a really shitty way to treat readers of this encyclopedia. --(AfadsBad (talk) 19:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC))

Get a new schtick, the 8-month old broken record ranting is tiresome, rant rant rant and do nothing but criticize. you could have fixed problems then, but you didn't, you just rant rant rant...it would be comical but stale material repeated endlessly would get you shouted off the stage at a deaf convention in the Catskills. Either put up or shut up...either get in the game and collaborate or stop bitching from the sidelines. Your sanctimonious b.s. gets tedious.--ColonelHenry (talk) 19:08, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• AfadsBad, my comments were limited to that DYK where, as you saw, I acknowledge that there were issues with the article, but I think that the one I tackled could have been tackled easily by you, in a different tone. If you are indeed exasperated by the quality of this editor's contributions then a more general venue than a DYK nom is appropriate, and an RfC/U is, in the end, the way to go. Torpedoing one DYK (and I think you could have a. been much more specific in your comments and b. been more helpful in the actual editing of the article, beyond just placing a template) doesn't do anything for the quality of the article. I have no opinion on the GA or anything else since I haven't looked at it, and I hope you noted that I did not make any blanket indictment (civil or uncivil) of your editing here--and I don't subscribe to Colonel Henry's opinion, which I just edit-conflicted with.

  I dig that you have problems with the project as a whole, but commenting on that DYK in that manner does not address anything, neither project improvement, editor improvement, or article improvement. I'll get back to that DYK and the article, even though you might consider me an amateur who is probably incapable of avoiding scientific atrocities. And if I'm in over my head I'll call on someone to help me. If you, in turn, wish to indict me elsewhere for being a nincompoop, well, that's fine; I'll just consider (perhaps vainly) that you probably had to look real hard to find some dirt on me. Or, and that's an option I prefer, you can help with the article and the nomination--just one more way of not hiding your candle under a bushel. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 19:18, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Which DYK are you talking about? Cwmhiraeth does not usually understand the very specific comments, so I am not going to spend time on them, though I might for the sake of the RFU. She writes a few articles a week, and I check three sentences and find multiple problems, one of her articles is a full time job--it's often difficult to even connect the cited source to the Misplaced Pages article. There is no means in place to fight Randy in Boise syndrome. Misplaced Pages has built up a defense against it. There is an essay on Misplaced Pages claiming that experts don't have to use reliable sources for their articles so they may not understand Misplaced Pages. Of course the sentence is unsourced, and it's also untrue--how did someone think this? I remove nonsense, politely, and Cwmhiraeth reverts and scolds me for doing so. I point out the worst Good Article ever on Misplaced Pages, and I earn an enemy for life (although an amusing one in the level of anger). Why is en.Misplaced Pages so defensive against correcting bad science? When I corrected the misspelled name of a plant family, that had been on en.Misplaced Pages for 7 years and generated 50,000 Google hits on the misspelling, and I needed help from a couple of the foreign language Wikipedias for deletion corrections, there was no problem, no reverting of my corrections, no insulting me, no fighting me that the article had been created and should be kept. Editors and administrators deleted the bad articles, made the necessary moves, corrected the spelling elsewhere within the encyclopedia. You want to shut me up? Then just put in place a method whereby when something is wrong and is not in the cited source it can be corrected. By the way, "nincompoop" or not elsewhere, peakbaggers is not, by en.Misplaced Pages definitions, a reliable source. --(AfadsBad (talk) 19:34, 1 April 2014 (UTC))
• For those in the peanut gallery: Template:Did you know nominations/Tripedalia cystophora. Drmies (talk) 19:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. If you can read the sources at a low level you can probably fix this article; the information that I reviewed that is wrong was not the high level information, but it was also not in the sources. I only looked at a couple of sentences, though. --(AfadsBad (talk) 19:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC))

AfadsBad, when mentioning a response of yours violated WP:NPA, it was because you insulted an editor's intelligence and level of knowledge. Completely inappropriate. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 04:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Read WP:Competence is required for this quote, "Many editors have ... come to believe that good faith is all that is required to be a useful contributor. Sadly, this is not the case at all. Competence is required as well. A mess created in a sincere effort to help is still a mess."

If you want to support Cwhmiraeth in creating nonsense to put on Misplaced Pages's main page, you might consider going to that mock Misplaced Pages site and putting her nonsense there. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. If someone is incompetent, the right thing to do is to stop them from contributing fake information to the encyclopedia, not shoot the messengers because you are here to social network rather than write an encyclopedia. --(AfadsBad (talk) 05:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC))

I believe my work will stand up to scrutiny and am happy to submit to Misplaced Pages:Editor review. My objective in making this complaint is to stop the relentless flow of criticism from AfadsBad which is interfering with my enjoyment of editing Misplaced Pages. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Then I'd propose you initiate an editor review. This will give AfadsBad an opportunity to present representative diffs and examples of the worst perceived science errors in your work. I would urge AfadsBad to contribute to that review in as patient, matter-of-fact and non-polemical a manner as possible, to ensure that attention remains on content rather than perceived interpersonal issues. With any luck, you'll both get something out of the process. Andreas JN466 09:08, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I have already done so. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:13, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of how one views Cwmhiraeth's comptence level, it is NOT an excuse to patronize their intelligence or work per WP:NPA. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 06:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Repeated addition of unsourced info about relatives

Ongoing problems with User:Bcd3174 (previously known as "Charlescorm") who has a history of promotional editing and is repeatedly adding unsourced information to List of Lebanese by net worth. In particular he is repeatedly adding information about his (dead) relatives (i.e. Charles Corm) , despite it being repeatedly removed by myself and other editors. I stumbled across List of Lebanese by net worth, found the information to be unsourced and very suspect and have attempted to improve it. Bcd3174 seems unwilling to accept that the information there needs to (at least) be verifiable. They have been warned on a number of occasions on their Talk page and the issues have been repeatedly explained on the article's Talk page but their behaviour hasn't subsequently changed at all. It's perplexing! Sionk (talk) 10:19, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Seconding Sionk's concerns; the editor is essentially a single purpose account editing articles related to Charles Corm, and despite many requests to read and adhere to WP:V and WP:RS, and advice concerning original research in articles, they don't seem to quite understand that it is not ok to add unsourced information. Maybe more advice and pointers from other editors who have been uninvolved with them before could make them understand what the issue is. --bonadea contributions talk 13:25, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

--Bcd3174 19:59, 31 March 2014 (UTC)This is BS! I spent ages researching and editing the article of "Richest Lebanese in the world". I have spent ages researching who are really the richest Lebanese in the world. It so happens that my GRANDFATHER was one (if not THE one!) of the richest men in Lebanon. After passing away, his wealth was divided among his 2 sons (my father and uncle). Ask anybody Lebanese about the Corm family and they will tell you that we are billionaires (not that I care that much at all; there are much more important things in life than money; this article just happens to cover THAT topic). So what?! Am I supposed to be ashamed to have a rich family? Am I supposed to apologize to Sionk and Bonadea who know NOTHING about Lebanese wealth (actually integrating in the list the names of people who don't even exist! I.e. Maya Papaya and co...)?! Maybe they just can't reconcile the fact that I am an honest and meticulous editor but also the son of a billionaire?! To show my good faith, I sent them the following message a few days ago: @Bonadea and Sionk. As I messaged you both, can we please bury the hatchet. We are NOT enemies and I harbor no other intention than making this list as ACCURATE as possible (just like you)! That means that I apologize for past coarse language. It was only a reaction to having all my hard work deleted under really lame arguments (with all due respect). And you should appreciate the (educated) work I put into this page. I happen to know Lebanese wealth inside out. It doesn't work according to Forbes lists or other BS lists that are known to be notoriously incomplete (when not downright WRONG). There are AT LEAST 5 Lebanese billionaires living in Africa that are not included in Forbes and co. nor the list I compiled. Why? Because these guys' fortune, well above 1 billion USD, is unknown. It could be 1, it could be 10. Their assets are "undercover". Also, and contrary to you Anglo-Saxon thinking, it is common practice in the Middle East to talk about FAMILIES. Forbes MENA (the regional version of Forbes) recently released its list of "RICHEST" and it was a list of... MENA's RICHEST FAMILIES!!! That's the way it works around here: FAMILY WEALTH! Because nobody, including Forbes (!) and hence I trust you will agree neither of you too, can or will ever be able to breakdown the wealth of individual family members. Again, this is how it works around here and if even FORBES approaches the "issue" that way, I trust that you guys will have the humbleness to respect that approach too. Getting to Corm, he was the exclusive agent of Ford Motor Cars for the entire Middle East. Everybody in Lebanon knows the Corms are worth billions. But they are a discreet family who have no interest in being in Forbes (which in turn has no way of measuring their fortune hence does not list them). Now either you want to make this page ACCURATE AND FAIR, either you want to just propagate s* intelligence and information, creating a snowball effect that just reinforces Forbes and co. s* lists. Also Bonadea and with all due respect, your date of death logic is BS! Either you consider a man dead and hence don't include him or his family in the list either you do (again, please read above my part on FAMILY WEALTH). But I don't think it is your prerogative to decide what length of death is acceptable or not! If you insist in removing Corm, then you MUST remove Safra and Hayek. If you don't, you have no consistency. And consistency is the key to credibility. And credibility is EXACTLY what Misplaced Pages lacks. So if your plan is to KILL Misplaced Pages (whose death I am convinced is around the corner as nobody I know trusts a word coming from Misplaced Pages, they just use it as a quick info "fix" on subjects of little importance to them), continue applying DOUBLE STANDARDS the way you do. I just HATE double standards. They are just about the biggest impediments to OBJECTIVE reporting. Over and out...

Their reaction to this kind message and invitation to COOPERATE with me was to simply REPORT me on this page! Again, I am NOT going to apologize or retract because I am working on a list where one of the listees happens to be my grandfather! And if you force me to do so, you (I don't even know who I am talking to) would be going AGAINST every single principle Misplaced Pages stands for! Over and out...'

It is really very simple. There is a single standard: All information must be sourced. Information that is not sourced can be challenged. When unsourced information is challenged, the burden of proof rests on the person who wants to add the information. Once again: the fact that "everybody in " knows something is not a source. Nobody is attacking you, nobody is asking for an apology from you. We are only asking for sources.

In addition, the reason sionk added this report here was not your message (which I would not have described as "kind", and which ascribed incorrect characteristics to me - I am not Anglo-Saxon) but the fact that you have persisted in restoring your ancestor to the page, without waiting for consensus on the talk page, and without reliable sources. You have been cut a lot of slack, and treated with a lot of courtesy despite not always being quite civil yourself , (I'm not sure whether your characterisation of me as "nothing but rude, aggressive and conceited towards " refers to this, this, or this). --bonadea contributions talk 06:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

--Bcd3174 07:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)If I was ever rude, I truly APOLOGIZE. It was never my intention. Please read my comments above. I extend to you all a hand of PEACE so that we collaborate instead of fighting. I have started my hunt for sources for this article. Not ONLY for my grandfather but for ALL the people on that list. Just give me some time and help out IF you want to make this page relevant and by extension Misplaced Pages a trusted source of information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bcd3174 (talk • contribs)

Raised a community ban proposal for Az-507 at AN

As Az-507 (talk · contribs) has been brought here several times recently I thought it appropriate to mention WP:AN#Community ban proposal for Az-507. Dougweller (talk) 11:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Offensive IP

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please review the editing of 74.62.92.20 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Offensive edit summaries that need hiding (again) and attacks on editors. Blocked by Dougweller for the same stuff back in January. Thanks, JMHamo (talk) 11:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Block the IP, I don't give a shit. 74.62.92.20 (talk) 12:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Ask, and thou shalt receive. (3 months, if anyone cares, given the last was a month, with no apparent conflict?) WilyD 12:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

This has been an editor that has had extensive problems with multiple editors. He comes back everynow and again and leaves me fanmail. He jumps Ip's so he'll be back eventually maybe even before the block expires but the behaviors doin't change so it won't matter they will end up blocked either way. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 14:02, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Are blogs allowed?

Wrong venue for something that doesn't require administrative actions. Please discuss at the article's talk page first. If that doesn't result in consensus you may want to ask at the Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. De728631 (talk) 13:56, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Is this a case where such a blog would be allowed? 2601:D:9400:5FF:F087:36AB:9F75:FFF6 (talk) 12:23, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Discuss this on the article's talk page or WP:RSN and not WP:ANI.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:49, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Yep, this isn't really a question for ANI. Just so it looks like we're not passing the buck, though, at a quick glance Youtube is virtually never an acceptable reliable source. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:45, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Necrothesp (talk · contribs)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Necrothesp (talk · contribs) is systematically renaming all baronets from their titles as Sir John Smith, xth Baronet to John Smith, apparently without achieving conesnsus first. I find this extremely petty action, made on an entirely spurious basis. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:14, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Have you tried to discuss this with Necrothesp? Probably not since you didn't even notify them of this thread. De728631 (talk) 15:25, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Did Necrothesp (talk · contribs) get consensus before making mass changes? Probably not since I have not seen them discussed. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:30, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Controversial edits should always be discussed first before taking the issue to this board. And that means if you object to these mass moves you should have tried to convince Necrothesp to undo them. I can see how you may view these moves as disruptive but that doesn't justify reporting another editor here without getting into contact with them first. As to the page moves, the applicable naming conventions state that prefixes like "Sir" should not be included in the article title and per WP:MOSDAB we don't need disambiguations for names of persons when there is only one article with that name. So I can see where Necrothesp is coming from. But on the other hand, the ordinal and peerage like "Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond" are supposed to be included in the page name per the naming conventions for nobility.

What does bother me a little though is the speed of Necrothesp's moves. I'm not saying they're automated but 2 page moves per minute is quite an output. That said, I would like to see a response from Necrothesp who has now stopped moving pages. De728631 (talk) 16:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Nothing controversial or automated here. Just me implementing something (WP:NCPEER) that should have been implemented on these articles long ago. These are peers, not baronets, and the same conventions do not apply as clearly stated in the naming convention. -- 16:30, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

We already have a consensus. Maybe if he bothers to actually read the longstanding naming convention (WP:NCPEER #3) before commenting, User:Barney the barney barney may care to apologise for his accusations of "petty" and "spurious". I wait with baited breath. Incidentally, I didn't make "mass changes". I count fourteen! This seems to be a simple case of one editor not liking a naming convention and objecting when another editor implements it. It's not like it's a new convention - it's been there for years. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:30, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

There are big problems with WP:NCPEER - the first being that baronets aren't peers. The changes are clearly petty, spurious and entirely unnecessary. I do not apologise for speaking the truth. The trouble is that countering a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality with acquiescence means that those with pathetic petty agendas will inevitably succeed if those who are unimpressed by such actions do not stand up to them. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Yup, he really needs to apologise now. This aggressive, accusatory attitude against an editor following the naming conventions (which he is clearly fully aware of, but doesn't agree with) is uncalled for and thoroughly unhelpful. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with WP:NCPEER. It is used by all of us who regularly edit British biographical articles, as a glance at Category:Baronets in the Baronetage of the United Kingdom will soon show. The convention quite clearly states that the style for baronets is only to be used when disambiguation is necessary. The fact that baronets are not peers is a complete red herring. We know that. The naming convention doesn't say they are. NCPEER is merely a shortcut. What Barney the barney barney has quite clearly done is disagreed with the naming convention and instead of discussing it in the appropriate place or bringing it up on my talkpage (I would have course have pointed him towards the naming convention), he has brought it here to accuse me in the hope that he will get support from other editors unaware of the naming convention, its longevity, and the fact that it is complied with and supported by other editors who work in this field. When rumbled he has simply upped his aggression level and made further accusations. The whole thing leaves a sour taste, quite frankly. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

As Necrothesp says, "NCPEER" is just a convenient shortcut; the naming convention (that "Sir" and "nth Baronet" should only be used when necessary for disambiguation) has been stable since August 2005, despite an unpleasant conflict centered, in part, around baronets. The change was conceived and affirmed by editors active in peerage and baronetage articles, and it hasn't been particularly controversial since. Barney, bringing this straight to AN/I was absolutely wrong: this should have been discussed at Necrothesp's talk page, the talk page for NCPEER, or Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Peerage and Baronetage before coming here. I would caution anyone making these moves (to the less complex page title) to make sure the baronet is the only notable person with that name; once the page has been moved, if someone edits the redirect, the move can't be reversed without administrator intervention. (This was being used tactically in the conflict I mentioned.) For unusual names like "Lowthian Bell", that's a fairly safe assumption, but high-speed renamings do tend to alarm people even if they are within policy. Anyway, the NCPEER guidelines are applicable and of long standing and Necrothesp is, as far as I can tell, complying with them. If you have a problem with those guidelines, take it to the talk page there; this is not an appropriate place for them. I think we're done here. Choess (talk) 18:51, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

User:IPadPerson tagging articles for problems that do not exist

A while ago I began to notice IPadPerson (talk · contribs) tagging articles for problems that don't exist. For example: BLP Sources on an article with 113 sources at the time, , . I left them a talk page note here, March 10th.

After that note, it continued: Lead too short on an article with no other information besides the one-line lead, , , , , , , , , , , , , .

I asked them once again to knock it off (here, March 23) and like many other attempts at contacting them, they ignored the message and continued on: , , , , , .

IPadPerson has had many incivility problems in the past, surrounded by issues of failing to respond to any user outside of one or two occasions (including when they were blocked for their incivility and requested an immediate unblock, all of a sudden having a ton to say). So it comes as no surprise to me that they've ignored my first two warnings. But this behavior of tagging articles for problems that aren't obvious or don't exist isn't beneficial to the project whatsoever. Gloss • talk 17:28, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Seems like textbook drive-by tagging, which I agree can be annoying. Connormah (talk) 17:36, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

While IPadPerson seems to have improved on civility, the tags placed don't seem to have been given much thought. Is it just me, or did the block perhaps prompt responses to other users on talk page? XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 17:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Side comment: Most tagging is drive-by tagging in the sense that it is the height of laziness on the part of the editor leaving a tag. If there is a problem they have noticed, they should take action to FIX or at least IDENTIFY the problem. Most tags do not articulate what the problem is, and the tags are left as a substitute for actual work that can help solve the problem. Note: the worst offenders are some of the highest edit count "leaders" of wikipedia--the ones who make multiple edits per minute and have no time to actually consider what they are doing with their edits. Really, a tag is a one-person complaint about an article, sometimes on articles that have thousands of views (meaning none of their predecessors have seen fit to change anything about the article). Furthermore, the public, header level announcement that there is a problem with this article, cumulatively serves to harm the overall look of credibility of Misplaced Pages. I equate tagging to vandalism on my talk page.

Often, after a tag has been left on an article, other editors use it as an excuse to remove legitimate, valuable content, doing greater damage to Misplaced Pages's archive of knowledge.

So in regard to this editor, yes their edits are junk, but virtually all taggers leave junk. The entire concept should be scrapped. Trackinfo (talk) 17:59, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

As much as I don't think the tags IPadPerson placed were needed, it doesn't seem appropriate to call someone's edits "junk". Regarding "laziness", I can see how tagging articles can be seen as lazy, but sometimes they are done when the user doesn't in that moment have the time to fix the issue himself/herself. For example, placing a "needs additional citations" tag can help while the editor searches for sources. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 18:32, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

To further show the user's unwillingness to cooperate, or even discuss... they've removed my previous warnings and the ANI notice (see here) Gloss • talk 18:49, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

While removing a message from one's own talk page is technically a sign indicating the user acknowledges it, in IPadPerson's case it would've been much more beneficial to at least reply first. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 19:01, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The least that IPadPerson can do is recognize that there is a problem with their edits. Epicgenius (talk) 19:28, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Not sure if more of a "I don't understand what my faults are" or a "I don't have any faults- you're just making this up" case..... XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 07:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

HOBOPOCC keeps deleting Wikpedia talkpage warnings of disruptive editing messages on his talkpage

HOBOPOCC (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) twice deleted Wikpedia talkpage warnings of disruptive editing messages on his talkpage. I assume in an attempt to with wash his disruptive editing past. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:35, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

There is no requirement for a user to keep warning notifications on their talk page. They are not active blocks or sanctions. Misplaced Pages:OWNTALK Gaijin42 (talk) 17:39, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

How are we to keep track of a patron of disruptive editing of a user then? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:53, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Memory. History. Block log. Editing restrictions log. ANI archives. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:59, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The talk page history contains a record of past warnings. Further, when a user removes a warning from their talk page, that's seen as a de facto acknowledgment of the warning. —C.Fred (talk) 18:02, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I see; thanks for the info Gaijin42 & C.Fred! In future I will include in the "Subject/headline" of a talkpage message the word "Warning of disruptive editing" to make it easier to keep track of a patron of disruptive editing of a user. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:21, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• This article is one of the worst kicks in the balls of WP:NOTNEWS since that whole "Occupy" fiasco--that is, the slew of articles detailing every single citizen and their dog who showed up to protest something. It should be deleted but hey, "it's in the news", no matter what the quality of the source is that says that 100 people showed up in Kherson or Zaporizhia. We can't wait until something becomes actual established knowledge--including photos, videos, and guesswork-maps that make our project into just another citizen activism site. Drmies (talk) 19:54, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Reporting User:Lighthouse01

Lighthouse01 (talk · contribs) is currently involved in an edit war on Serbo-Croatian, and is making POV edits (of the usual kind, in this article). I had a look at their editing history and it seems that they've been making similar edits to other articles, like . This seems like WP:OWN-like behaviour, which is confirmed by these edit, in which they made rather offensive and racist remarks (in the edit summary in the first): ,. CodeCat (talk) 18:26, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

This also looks like a violation of WP:SOAP and WP:NPA. I'm worried that this editor is here with a pretty strong nationalist agenda that is not going to allow them to properly collaborate with other editors. -- Atama頭 20:35, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, people for thinking that. Actually my country is surrounded by nationalists, and my edits seem nationalistic. But they're not. Lighthouse01 (talk) 20:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

The user tried to delete this report (note the edit summary), and has put more personal attacks on their talk page . They also contacted me on my talk page, which was civil at least, but rather hypocritical considering the edit summaries they've been leaving. I find their behaviour very contradictory to be sure... they apologise while spewing insults and personal attacks elsewhere. CodeCat (talk) 21:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Three-admin panel requested for closure of Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#Requested move 8, when the discussion has run.

Greetings! A proposal has been made at Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#Requested move 8 to change the title of the article, Hillary Rodham Clinton to Hillary Clinton. Such a move request has been made in the past, and has frequently engendered very spirited discussion. The last time such a discussion went for the full discussion period, it was closed contentiously by a non-admin, leading to an equally contentious move review. In order to head off any shenanigans, I would like to request that a panel of three completely neutral and uninvolved admins (i.e. not having participated in the conduct or closing of any of the previous discussions) convene to monitor this discussion, make sure that it does not veer off-topic, and close it either at the end of seven days (if no extension is sought) or at the end of fourteen days (if an extension is sought). Cheers! bd2412 T 18:34, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I'd be willing to close it either by myself or as part of a 3-admin panel. I have no particular interest in the article, other than being a voting-eligible US citizen.--v/r - TP 20:29, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Great, thanks - do you want to see if you can find the other two, or wait for more volunteers? bd2412 T 20:31, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The RM just opened today so there is no hurry. We can wait to see who volunteers.--v/r - TP 20:36, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I'd feel comfortable being a member of the 3-admin closing panel. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:06, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. One to go. The discussion seems to be quite civil this time around, and I hope it will stay that way, but it is worth keeping an eye on just in case. Cheers! bd2412 T 22:35, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Further to this suggestion of a panel to close this move request - which I support and thank User: BD2412 for thinking of it - I'd like to request that an effort be made to have at least one female administrator involved in the closing. Some issues raised have included the meaning of a "maiden" name vs a surname, which is something that might benefit from a more gender-balanced review. Please take this request in the spirit in which it is given, which is not at all meant to be divisive and certainly not to cast aspersions on the brave souls who have volunteered to step up and help sort this out - whose gender I do not know and who I am sure will be fair - it is merely to try to assure that all concerns are considered in the broadest possible manner. Thanks Tvoz/talk 22:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

"Female administrator" and "closing a move request" immediately brings User:BrownHairedGirl to mind. We often disagree, but she is fair, well-experienced, and has no lack of spine. bd2412 T 22:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Good suggestion. Tvoz/talk 02:23, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to request that an effort be made to have at least one administrator with the last name "Clinton" involved in the closing. Some issues raised have included the meaning of "Clinton", which is something that might benefit from a more "Clinton"-balanced review. Please take this request in the spirit in which it is given, which is not at all meant to be divisive and certainly not to cast aspersions on the brave souls who have volunteered to step up and help sort this out - whose last name I do not know and who I am sure will be fair - it is merely to try to assure that all concerns are considered in the broadest possible manner. CombatWombat42 (talk) 22:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Who knows, maybe BHG is a Clinton. But really, do people with a name really understand it? And it someone in the family is close enough to this, would they not be biased by their existing beliefs which may not reflect what our policies are? Vegaswikian (talk) 22:37, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

In light of the foregoing, and today's date, I would like all of the administrators participating in the closing panel to affirm that they are not 1) Hillary Clinton; 2) Bill Clinton; 3) any member of the Clinton family; or 4) any member of the Rodham family. However, George Clinton is okay. bd2412 T 22:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

But what if they're not Bill Clinton, but rather Bill Clinton? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:06, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

In response to User: BD2412's suggestion, I would be happy to volunteer to be one of the 3-admin panel. I will not be available to help until Saturday or Sunday, and hope that would be OK.

I have no particular interest in the outcome, beyond a general concern for respecting established policies.

To the best of my knowledge, I am nor related to any members of the Clinton or Rodham family. I am not now, nor have I ever been, called "Hilary" or "Rodham" or "Clinton", or any permutation or combination thereof, either on wiki or in other contexts. This disqualifies me per CombatWombat42's test, so I will leave it to others to decide whether that black ball is fatal. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks. The proposal was initiated at 02:27, 31 March 2014 (UTC), so the time for discussion should end at 02:27, 7 April 2014 (UTC), unless additional time is requested. Cheers! bd2412 T 23:21, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, BHG. Tvoz/talk 02:26, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I am not, have not ever been, nor intend to be in the future, a member of either the Clinton or Rodham family.--v/r - TP 00:10, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

That's inconsistent with this evidence. Count Iblis (talk) 00:15, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

You've caught me. I am a distant cousin of theirs. Coincidentally, I am also a distant cousin of yours as well.--v/r - TP 01:44, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Ongoing personal attacks by User:Skookum1

Despite by blocked for 48 hours for unspecified reasons () by User:Fayenatic london, User:Skookum1 continues to make personal attacks. The last month and a half has seen an incredible wave of personal attacks, many against myself. Other more experienced editors advised me not to do anything since it would be a waste to time, so I sat back and observed the Skookum1's attacks continue unabated. Finally I started issuing warnings on his talk page (March 20th, March 21st, March 21st, and March 31st, in hopes of grabbing the attention of an administrator, but so far in vain. People have commented that Skookum1 makes valuable contributions; however, the other editors and I also make valuable contributions to Misplaced Pages for years now and have done so without violating basic Misplaced Pages Pillars.

For a sampling of personal attacks ("Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence" also constitutes a personal attack):

• Against myself: "she's NOT a good editor, she's behaving in a rogue manner, I'll take it up elsewhere, I guess I was just pointing out to you that somebody's sleeping dog didn't really want to stay lying down...." diff
• Against myself: "You don't get how half-informed you are about the FOO people problem ... Your logic throughout all of this has been half-informed ... It's ironic to me that you, as someone on an indigenous high horse often enough, as with how you came at me over the Nevada categories, would in this case wind up pandering to the name-changes brought on by colonialist attitudes/chauvnism towards native nomenclatures..... diff
• Against myself: "Well, if I didn't have to hear the same obstinate, half-informed ideas brought over time and again ... All the things she's bringing forward right now I told her about already, she dismissed them, told me what I thought didn't matter, and that she's entitled to her opinion. What she's really saying is she's determined to underscore her ignorance and has no intentions of learning about the subject matter she's screwing with" diff
• Against myself: "you violently and bitterly resisted my attempt to make sense out of the Nevada categories ... start throwing apples and oranges around and pointing at other name problems to justify your rashness and obstinacy defending this bad choice of category name which you made without having a clue what you're talking about." diff
• Against myself: "pretending yourself to be such an authority on it that youy think your "opinion" (=ignorance of the topic) matters, and that you have a "right" to impose it on others??" diff
• Against myself (accusation w/o proof): "... considering her timing of this re other convos in IPNA and elsewhere, and her territorial WP:OWNership of Nevada tribe/reservation categories where she accused me of being a vandal for trying to make sense of that category structure to bring it in line with IPNA standards ... to me it seems like she jumped on top of it as a provocation or a "throw the skookum a bone" time-waster like Kwami likes to do.... Hard to do, to accept good faith, when someone who has accused you in no slight terms in the past in very pointed NPA terms (impugning I'm a white racist or supermacist, calling me a vandal for trying to fix glaring miscategorization problems) is so aggressively WRONG in terms of the suggestions and reasons she brings forward, no matter how often I explain the facts to her, she reiterates her lack of correct information as if it were valid and mine was only "opinion", and wrong in her actions of ignoring the CfD and acting on her own without recourse to proper process." diff

...these go on and on, and I can provide more diffs if need, but to move on to more recent attacks:

• Against User:Maunus and myself: "He was at the time of most if not all, hence the overwrite power he had, which maunus and Uysvdi still have despite their contrarian and hostile and incivil behaviour." diff
• Against User:Kwamikagami and myself: "Your attitude has been hostile and contrarian, and you yourself attacked me subtextually during that little game you played with the Shoshone categories, your position there also being against guidelines for category use and harmonizing names with category titles. Kwami's out of line, and this ain't the first time (his little game with the K'omoks title these last two days was way out of line, and geez I thought you of all people in the cabal, being indigenous yourself, would seed the point of respecting modern name-choices made by those peoples..... but as with Squamish, which you waded into without a clue about the implications, you apparently prefer to stick with teh colonialists' names for peoples you don't even know. EAt apples much? And this little NPA message of yours is horseshit, given your own behaviour towards me....... Kwami defends racist terms and regularly espouses anti-native attitudes, and yet there you were lecturing me about not being indigenously aware...... ACK what a waste of time the lot of you are; ramming through your NCL pet project, applying it helter skelter without any thought of consistency, or the long-standin convention about standalone names being dismissive about native endonyms, and about Canadian English. That you are an admin is a joke." diff and diff
• Against User:Kwamikagami: "YOUR POV is what the problem is here, and accusing me of that is a farce. I'm the one that's being regularly attacked and criticized, and if I do so much as criticize a policy or point to someone's erroneous or ill-considered actions, I get an NPA warning from someone who's attacked me herself. Your problem Kwami is you can't admit you're wrong and that you have a complete disdain for the knowledge of the places and people and linguistic idiom (aka Canadian English usages) that's really obnoxious and you show it time and time again" diff
• Against JorisvS: "If all you can so is soft-pedal insults at the nominator and not address the 'support' votes from others, it's clear that your opposition is NOT based in guidelines but in personal contempt for me ... Your vote should be disqualified on those grounds ... Stop the axegrinding and discuss the issues ... it's you who declines to discuss this, and are making me thet issue, not the topic at hand, and are knee-jerk voting on a very personal and now targeted basis." diff
• Against JorisvS: "Please contain your prejudices ... The subtext of bigotry towards native peoples and their names in all such RMs is both tiresome and disturbing ..." diff
• Against JorisvS: "You bleated that UNDAB and NCET haven't faced RfCs; I think it's high time that NCL got a once-over by more than your little crew of linguistics groupies." diff

If anyone wants more examples, I can furnish more.

Skookum1 has frequently accused me of attacking him, but when asked to find concrete proof, could not (User talk:Skookum1#March 2014). The conversation where he incorrectly believes I accused him of racism is located at User talk:Skookum1/Archive 18#Categories on redirects and User talk:Skookum1/Archive 19#December 2013. He accused me of calling his edits to Nevada tribes' categories as "vandalism"; however, I never did. The edit summaries of the edits in question can be found: here and here; they involved removing reservation cats from redirects.

Skookum1 has many conspiracy theories against me, which, frankly, I find disturbing. In truth, I try to avoid him as much as possible in my editing, this AN/I being a major exception. In real life, I work with numerous Native artists from British Columbia, but don't bother writing about them on Misplaced Pages in the attempt to avoid Skookum1.

This recent barrage of personal attacks has created a toxic environment that does not serve any of us well. Ignoring the problem hasn't helped, and issuing warnings on Skookum1's talk page hasn't achieved anything. These personal attacks need to stop. If there *is* a policy that allows a user to attack anyone they want without any recourse, I would like to hear it. -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

• Comment I've had many run-ins with Skookum, though I haven't always been polite either. If I disagree with him on a matter of procedure (for example, when Skookum dislikes the names of articles that follow our naming guidelines, I think it's best to discuss changing the guidelines, rather than making scores of move requests and arguing each of them independently as an exception to the guidelines), then he accuses me of racism, perversion, conspiracy, or other acts of bad faith. I've had good experiences with him too, where he's been reasonable and helpful, but only when (a) I agreed with him, or (b) I was seeking his advice and had no opinion of my own. Skookum has made valuable edits, but not IMO valuable enough to overlook his socially inappropriate behaviour. — kwami (talk) 22:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• My reasons for blocking are set out on my talk page rather than Skookum1's, User_talk:Fayenatic_london#Skookum1. I have tried to coach this editor, but have not succeeded. Although I chose not to take further enforcement action in his case, I have been warning him (see his talk page) that action is bound to come if he does not change his behaviour, but sadly this has not changed. – Fayenatic London 22:23, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
  • My encounter with Skookum1 was at this recent CfD. I went into it neutral but speaking quite frankly I came away from it with the impression he's here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, not to improve the encyclopedia. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• This ANI and the threats of it I view as part of an ongoing harassment of attack and obstructionism by Usyvdi on partisan and personal grounds and constitutes an abuse of power; Bushranger made me as a person the target of discussion in that CfD, rather than address the issues or even read my statements, despite support from other editors who were in agreement with me on that issue. Usyvdi has partisan motivations here and is abusing her power as an admin on behalf of that agenda, and has issued NPA warnings one-sidedly while ignoring those made against me by herself, Kwami, JorisV, Maunus and others, and also tolerating an obvious campaign of oppositionism in various RMs and other discussions. Her own condescensions and derisions toward me are a matter of record and constitute harassment on behalf a particular agenda and some kind of personal resentment that seem to have begun quite a while ago; this is all highly unCIVIL and AGF and her own NPAs against me put her assault on me in a highly hypocritical context. Others respect me, and actually are capable of reading my posts instead of complaining that don't have time or ability to read so-called "walls of text"; many patronizing comments by her and her colleagues at NCL are staple fare in various RMs, and her refusal to discuss her inconsistency on various matters pertaining to guidelines and other matters. This is a nuisance an ANI and I believe it is her conduct, not mine, that should be on the table and her adminship reviewed - and revoked.

She denies saying things to me which I know she said and must be hidden in page histories somewhere, which I will take the time to dig out because of this ANI; she has also deleted my attempt to broach an important issue where she is in conflict with her own actions, and added the extremely NPA edit comment "Get a life!". she has refused discussion and met important questions with silence. The one-sided nature of her conflated NPA accounts completely belies the ongoing derision and opposition and insults of herself and others who are defenders of the extremely flawed guideline WP:NCL.

This is all a waste of time and just more harassment, and I believe part of a joint campaign to drive me by that particular faction to drive me from Misplaced Pages or have me blocked so as to muzzle my critiques of their actions and faulty guidelines and questionable behaviour. It is completely one-sided and highly partisan in nature and highly immature overall; playing wiki-cop when she herself is no one to talk is, quite frankly, a bore. I have been doing useful work while putting up with harassment, evasion, derision and more; this ANI is just more procedural obstructionism and hostility towards my editing activities and is highly questionable in the extreme. This ANI should be about her, and her erstwhile allies against me, not about me. I have work to do and that life to lead that she told me to go get; Misplaced Pages is becoming more and more about procedure and protocol that honest work on articles and seems increasingly smaller and smaller pool full of narrower and narrower minds invested with more and more power....and pompous behaviour. Yes, I am voluble but I am articulate and respected by many editors despite all the derision and denunciation.

This ANI is a nuisance ANI and partisan harassment and IMO nothing more; conflations of critiques of actions and guidelines are being misportrayed as NPA when much more explicit and vicious personality attacks and sundry derisions go unaddresszed, and are a tiresome bore at countless RMs and also that CfD that Bushranger interloped on by attacking me for my writing style without addressing content and support votes; that CfD and its predecessor and t he RMs preceding it all need revisiting, perhaps mediation or Arbcom or wherever, and NCL needs an RfC to address its many inadequacies. The use of adminship on behalf of a partisan alliance hostile towards me is highly questionable and should be being reviewed by all the adminship, not just the claque of those who recite TLDR as it it were a guideline and not an excuse to not listen or address important issues and incorrect claims which cannot be put in terse form.

The presumptuous behaviour and comments towards me by her and other admins who presume to speak for "the community" or as "we", as JorisV has done and others allied to Uysvdi is also a matter of record, as are incantations of guidelines without reference to the wider context of the rest of guidelines; the use of "fanatic" is an apt discussion of the WP:DUCK behaviour of those concerned, and was conflated into NPA by hypersensitivity and an obvious laager mentality by those who maintain that NCL has primacy over all other guidelines. Yet despite even more virulent NPAs against me, I am the one being attacked and now officially harassed....I will post a link or two later to longer replies and comments about the decay in commonsense and civility at Misplaced Pages in recent times, including a reply to her on her pre-ANI warning to me last night, which I withheld for review until today.Skookum1 (talk) 04:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• I am not an administrator. I ignored your personal attacks for weeks; however, they did not abate, so I gave giving you warnings for your personal attacks (which I would have no cause to do, if you would simply stop creating personal attacks). An AN/i is not a personal attack; having a different opinion is not a personal attack. -Uyvsdi (talk) 05:08, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
  • how bizarre but also typical of you, in all your conflations of my points about issues and guidelines and ongoing conduct and often rank dishonesty into alleged NPA status. "having a different opinion is not a personal attack" is completely contrary to how you have been treating my "different opinions" (which are 90% of the time or more directly about citable facts, other precedents and various guidelines other than the one being tub-thumped repetitively and out of context; I present facts, you claim they are only opinion while continuing to defend ORIGINALRESEARCH in NCL and also in NCET, and you deride my presentation of this with open derision and uncivil commentary on a regular basis, though not as harshly as the many AGFs and NPAs from your NCL colleagues which you also turn a blind eye to.

I am glad you are not an admin; I have seen your overwrite redirects and other things which led me to believe that; your pompousness and back-handed attitude towards my attempts to discuss guidelines and such matters as the "FOO people" problem and category redirects has been noxious and insulting. Your ANI is as hypocritical as much of your other conduct and words; this is a waste of time and is just more obstructionism and and a way to keep from answering to issues and RMs and to seek official muzzling of me to keep me from critiquing the NCL agenda and your own inconsistent positions on many matters. I will find that lengthy derision you launched at me re the category redirects which you deny making, as it was competely an NPA, being insulting and also somewhat racist towards me as a non-indigenous person.Skookum1 (talk) 05:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Skookum1 is passionate about what he thinks is best for Misplaced Pages. While Skookum1 could have picked less inflammatory words I can understand his frustration when faced with a group of editors who don't understand what the guidelines (Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes) and Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (languages)) say, here and here and here. Faced with that sort of remark and the belief by this group of editors that "one size fits all" ("Foo people: and "Foo language") even when this leads to article titles that violates Misplaced Pages:No original research it is no wonder that he tends to get frustrated. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 16:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

There isn't a single monolithic group of editors. Over years now, I've dealt with the exact same situation, have been equally frustrated, but read and am familiar with the current iteration of both conventions, discuss the issues on the talk pages of those conventions, and don't resort to personal attacks. -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Given there's established consensus to violate WP:NOR in the name of WP:MOS when it comes to article titles in certain other parts of the encyclopedia, that ship sailed long ago. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Me, too

In this diff today, Skookum1 attributes all kinds of unspecified bad intent to me and others. This is uncalled for. Dicklyon (talk) 05:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Geez, yet more conflation and distortion claiming to be NPA when really it is evasion of the gist of your opposition, which is obstructionist and not about guidelines or real-world usage, but only a defence of your claim that the title in question is ambiguous, which it is NOT and you ignore both guidelines and cites/stats produced by entrenching the belief that it IS ambiguous, despite being no different from Coquitlam, Nanaimo and other town items that share a name with now-archaic usages;WP:CSG#Places is very clear about such issues but you muddy the waters despite proof that the District of Saanich is the primary usage in the course of justifying ignoring guidelines that I am acting under the mandate of, and with consensus from other WPCANADA editors.Skookum1 (talk) 05:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Skookum1, forgive me for being extremely blunt here, but there's a saying that's relevant to your situation here. Extremely relevant, even. "When you're in a hole, stop digging." - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Your repeated attacks on my writing style buried the very relevant points I raised and the support votes coming from informed and conscientious editors who understand what I'm talking about and don't hassle me for my writing style as if it were a crime; BHG's closure in making me the target of the negative and off-guideline closure are of the same kind as your own targeting of me in your Fayenatic's close of last year of the previous CfD. and rather than heed him, you ignored the Mightyquill's comments about focusing on what I have to say not on me, which is totally contrary to the way any discussion is supposed to be decided on; on guidelines and facts, not targeting the proponent as a reason to deny the very needed CfD to correct the very bad and vague resulting stasis at a very questionable title. Others see my points and agree; the closure of the Squamish town RM was similarly skewed by procedural bafflegab and the endless TLDR mantra by those who cannot manage to read extended argument or even the guidelines, and by a host of opposition votes from people voting against the proposal in well-established and persistent patterns of knee-jerk opposition to anything I do or say.....Skookum1 (talk) 14:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
    • As I mentioned there, I came into that discussion neutral; my opinon of your editing style and discussion style was fully shaped by nobody other than yourself. Perhaps you need to consider, just for a moment, that if people are "opposed to anything I do or say", then perhaps maybe, just maybe, the problem is not them, but you. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:30, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
• Wow I'm not sure if Skookum1 could have proved the OP's point any better. Might have been better to plead the Fifth, however, based on the above alone, I forsee a break in Skookum1's editing patterns in the near future ES&L 10:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
  • You mean the huge amount of valuable work I've been putting in despite endless harassment from a certain faction who want to see me gone because I'm in their way? Summary censure of a valuable contributor and very encyclopedically-conscious editor because of the insecurities towards my lengthy writingz and detailed commentary and wide-ranging interests and knowledge, or silencing my ability to respond to putdowns and insults accordingly? Is Wiki-bureacracy putting itself ahead of content so readily that someone who's created a huge mass of articles is so easily shut out by someone's attacks against me reaching such fever pitch and endless hypocritical accusations against me by those stonewalling and degrading me on a regular basis? Really? Is that what Misplaced Pages is about? The iron hand of so-called wikiquette and blatant hypocrisy about same, rather than honestly and fully addressing issues of content and TITLE??Skookum1 (talk) 14:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:No personal attacks provides the definition of "personal attacks," which includes, "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence." -Uyvsdi (talk) 15:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Oh, so Kwami calling my bringing up guidelines that he doesn't like "ridiculous" and "idiotic" and more is fine and dandy huh? And there were claims about NPA about me that had to do with nothing more than showing how he (and others) were in violation of guidelines or had ignored consensus (just as you had done in re-creating Category:Squamish). I'm busy in real life; your own groundless accusations and many putdowns of me are many, I'll get to them yet.Skookum1 (talk) 00:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

You have also successfully showcased why there is WP:DIVA (Specifically the part stating "... long-time user who believes he or she is more important than other editors, long of course being subjective). Seriously just in the ANI responding to your behavior you have tossed out at least half a dozen dispersions. The requirements to edit also include being able to work in a colaborative environment; content isn't created in a vacuum. Creating a hostile editing environment is not the way to go. Tivanir2 (talk) 15:58, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Funny you should use that term "Diva" it applies very much to Uysvdi as links here later will show; but here's a good one where she reverts a needed change to NCET saying "no consensus", meaning that she and Kwami don't want it, even though it's come up over and over and over again in the RMs that the "NCL Pack" (I was reading WP:List of cabals last night have been so bitterly and repetitively opposing on spurious grounds; claiming that the NCL-advocated "FOO people" is "preferred" has been clearly shown to be in violation of TITLE, as is also the claim that it is "unambiguous".....those have to come out, along with the ORIGINALRESEARCH claim that such in a "language-people pair" both are primary topics so both' must be disambiguated; the consensus has taken place, just not in the little backyard where she and Kwami are stonewalling/ignoring the discussion of NCET that will never be a consensus, given her silence at questions she doesn 't want to answer, and Kwami's rank insults and negative commentary. "Subjective" is hardly what others familiar with my work would call it; guidelines, sources, informed local knowledge and more, are being met by everything from ad hominem attacks and snipes, irrelevant red herrings, mis-citations of guidelines or just not answering to the major guidelines; I'll compile links to these later; I'm busy in real life today, but between "DIVA" and "subjective" you have nailed on the head not me, but the activities thrown up and thrown at me in opposition by those railing against my attempts to put right what they have put wrong, including that little reversion of Uysvdi's at NCET, which she does not WP:OWN. Many others have pointed out those flaws in NCET, the consensus is there, and the flaws are so many in NCL that IMO it should be trashed and started over from scratch from objective reality, not the agenda of a club of linguists.Skookum1 (talk) 00:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

When it comes to AN/I, Skookum1, the little that I've learned is that, regardless of your contributions thus far, editors that are seen as disrupting the project are sanctioned. I've seen editors who were productive for years and years, then some straw breaks the camel's back, they go off, making accusations and can't be talked down off the ledge and they end up being blocked. Editors here are asking you to asking you to come down from the ledge. Enough of the conspiracy theories, claims of being ganged up are rarely met with empathy because these are never one-sided disputes.

Also, no one, I mean, no one, wants to read a wall of text. If you want people to read your argument, please be concise, direct and on topic.Liz 18:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

The editors who are disrupting the project are those who are persistently blocking changes mandated to titles by major guidelines; and Kwami's attempt to shut down RMs because he claims he wants a centralized discussion; one that he did not hold when he went across thousands of articles without discussion, applying a guideline that he wrote himself; among the casualties were important indigenous titles in my own part of the world, which it took five bitterly fought RMs and no end of personal abuse and baiting from, to correct. "Disruptive" like "subjective" and "diva" are way more apt for his behaviour and that of the other NCLers who persist in trying to block name changes with subjective arguments, specious commentary, and re-incantations of NCL with no discussion of anything else - except attackign Canadian English. Uysvdi has mostly stayed out of these RMs; the whole campaign of oppositionism has been noted and criticized by others.... I'm used to the ironies of being accused of what others are doing, but calling ME "disruptive" when all this is going on...well, that's what Kwami said about my launching of individual RMs on the titles he wantonly changed to suit himself after the bulk RMs I launched to address only 120 of them were closed. I have to get busy with my day; the track record of this campaign to bully and oppose me is very long, and I'm not the only one who has observed that there's one hell of a lot of knee-jerk opposition and relentless nitpicking going on to delay the needed reversions; I was going to file a multiple ANI on this group of editors (whicvh is not a conspiracy because it's public and also demonstrable fact) but Uysvdi beat me to it. I'm not the one being disruptive, I'm the one being victimized by those who are being disruptive.Skookum1 (talk) 00:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Skookum, you're doing yourself no favours here. Walls of text + inflammatory language in response to concerns raised at AN/I are extremely unlikely to result in a situation that continues with your unimpeded ability to edit. Walk away from the computer, have a cup of tea or whatever you prefer, and practice some mindfulness before you continue to engage here. I urge you to do this for your own good, and for your ability to keep editing without problems. — Daniel 02:56, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Skookum1 exhibits some classic diva behavior, and his inevitable return from the last "throw my arms up in the air" wikibreak that lead me to this conclusion is reinforced - and problems continue. I do not understand the persecution complex, and I probably don't need to. Skookum1 needs to toe the line like we all have to. Doc talk 03:07, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Destructive editing by TheRedPenOfDoom

Altimgamr sock

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can an admin please block this sockpuppet of User:Altimgamr that has this edit. The user name may be an actual password as he has disclosed it before (see "Edits by User:44thPresidentOfUSA" above in ANI.) Thanks, Bahooka (talk) 05:38, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for blocking that sock. He is also currently online as User:Chevrolet Cruze with edits like this with a fake forum reference and nice edit summary. Bahooka (talk) 06:02, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

User:TekkenJinKazama

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

For the past 24 hours, this user has been harassing me about an article I'm not even involved with. He wants me to do something about the Ra.One article, wherein he insists that the film is in English. I have told him time and time again that I have never seen the film, so I have no say on what languages were used on it. My only issue with him was his constant vandalism of Shaolin Soccer, claiming that the English dub of the U.S. version is the official language. - Areaseven (talk) 06:39, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Mohammadaas

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This vandalism-only account blocked already is repeatedly vandalizing their own talk page. See here and here. M. Caecilius (talk) 06:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

If vandalizing own talk page, then there's no question that the user's talk page rights should be revoked if not already revoked. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 07:18, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Naghmehetaati

Could someone, perhaps someone who speaks Persian, have a word with Naghmehetaati to see whether it's possible to get them to stop posting walls of text in Persian on Talk:Hassan Rouhani. I removed several of their posts and left a message at User talk:Naghmehetaati but without success. Some of the comments appear to have been directed at Hassan Rouhani himself and others seem to treat the page as a forum. They probably mean well but they don't seem to understand the purpose of the talk page. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I used Google Translate to put a note on their talk page. The text is almost certainly distorted in some way, but perhaps it might be enough to get the idea across. BMK (talk) 09:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

If the editor is unable to communicate in English, then that falls under WP:COMPETENCY. There is a reason why there is a different project for each language. If I went to the Persian Misplaced Pages and started leaving messages in English everywhere (and only English) I'd expect to be blocked too. If the editor is able and willing to communicate in English then there won't be a need for a block, so I suggest giving them a chance first. -- Atama頭 22:05, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

India Against Corruption disruption yet again

We've got more incoming disruption at India Against Corruption from the same meatpuppets/SPAs/role accounts that have previously and tendentiously been pushing a POV and issuing legal threats. I'm really rather fed up of this place at the moment and can't be bothered digging out diffs but if someone is around who knows the history then please could you do the necessary. Plenty in the archives here, and stuff at mediation, with OTRS etc. I have reported it to RFPP but that can take hours and this is election season in India.

You'll see some recent back-and-forth on my talk page history and at that of TheWikiIndian (who is blocked for 2 weeks right now but only the tip of the iceberg). - Sitush (talk) 08:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I protected the page when I noticed the edit warring a few minutes ago - hadn't seen this or RPP. This is the second time in a few weeks that this page has been protected. The elections are 12 May 2014 and I expect a number of attempts to use Misplaced Pages to promote candidates and parties. Dougweller (talk) 09:00, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I suspect the problems will continue after the elections because this is a massive misunderstanding of how we operate. They've been invited on numerous occasions to create India Against Corruption (organisation) or similar if they think they can satisfy WP:GNG but they never bother. Which is because up to now it hasn't satisfied GNG and they know it. Anyway, I'm gone & it is no longer my problem. - Sitush (talk) 09:04, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

This is a gross distortion of the facts. IAC is an apolitical organisation. We care a fig for elections. FYI, yhe elections are on 9.April.2014 onwards. It is Sitush who is promoting political candidates Arvind Kejriwal (who was a part of IAC but is now a politician) and Anna Hazare (who was never a part of IAC, but is endorsing candidates for a fee). On 27.March 2014 the leading Indian newspaper "The Hindu" published this . Sitush now stands exposed and refuses to discuss this news report . Accordingly IAC demands that all references in the article titled "India Against Corruption" to Anna HAzare / "Team Anna" are deleted within 36 hours. Mr. Sarbajit Roy and Mr. Veeresh Malik are the trademark and copyright holders for all aspects connected to the brandname "India Against Corruption". 2A01:7E00:0:0:F03C:91FF:FEDB:DDC8 (talk) 09:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• The article has been fully protected. Jim1138 (talk) 09:21, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
  • The above looks like a "chilling effect threat" to me. Probably the IP should get a time out for that. BMK (talk) 09:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Please read the news report first and the retraction by the newspaper. Does Misplaced Pages still justify IMPERSONATION of our body? Can any Admin explain WHY Sitush dropped out of MEDIATION when he couldn't justify his impersonating edits ? 2A01:7E00:0:0:F03C:91FF:FEDB:DDC8 (talk) 09:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
      • What happens after 36 hours when we don't comply with your demands? (Incidentally holding trademarks doesn't prevent the organization from being discussed without its permission, and, at least in US law, one cannot copyright a name.) BMK (talk) 09:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
        • We have many options open to us. This is NOT a legal threat. 2A01:7E00:0:0:F03C:91FF:FEDB:DDC8 (talk) 09:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
          • Discuss us freely, but don't allow IMPERSONATIUON of us on your website. Impersonation is a contravention of WMF's "Terms of Use". 2A01:7E00:0:0:F03C:91FF:FEDB:DDC8 (talk) 09:38, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
            • • Impersonation of who? You're not a named account, you're an IP. We have no way of knowing who you are, so there's no way to prevent "impersonation". Make an account, show OTRS some proof that you represent an organization, and if it's verified, then if someone claiming to be from the organization turns out to be an impersonator, something can be done. Until then... Beside, who are claiming is impersonating the IAC? Sitush? Simply because he's written an article based on facts from reliable sources that you don't like? You don't and can't (and won't) control what's written about you here, so if that's what you're after, it's not gonna happen. BMK (talk) 09:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
            • Just to assist you folks. On 27.March.2014 the venerable Indian Newspaper "The Hindu" deleted a news story that Mr Hazare was with IAC and fully published our rejoinder that Mr. Anna Hazare was never a part of IAC, and after confirming this from Mr. Hazare. The link is above. 2A01:7E00:0:0:F03C:91FF:FEDB:DDC8 (talk) 09:42, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

My earlier comment here was removed by someone. As for discussing freelym, we've done that for nine months and you "lost", for want of a better word. It is things like this that have put me off Misplaced Pages, ie: clueless contributors & the fact that the WP systems mean one has to put up with them for such a prolonged time. Ending the ability to edit anonymously would be a start. - Sitush (talk) 09:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, regarding IP editing. BMK (talk) 09:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

IP, howe many more times must you idiots be told that the article does not say Hazare was a part of the IAC organisation that you represented. He was a part of the IAC movement and a member of a committee that was popularly identified with that movement and the term (not the organisation) IAC. - Sitush (talk) 09:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

IP blocked for evasion - I think it's pretty clear that, whether sockpuppet or meatpuppet, this is a continuation of the usual IAC disruption. Since there's clearly no reasoning with this person/these people, blocking on sight seems to be the only strategy that will work. Yunshui 雲‍水 09:51, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• @ Sitush: it wasn't the IP who removed your earlier post — I think that must have been an accident. The sock you mentioned in the removed post has been indeffed, along with another one who just removed the header to this section from the ANI TOC. Possibly more interestingly, the more established editor TheWikiIndian has made legal threats and called you a paid editor who published inaccurate information in Arvind Kejriwal as a paid edit to solicit votes for Mr. Kejrijwal's party and to confuse the public. I think you recognize that, Sitush — do you have the link to that blog again? — and Dougweller is in it too, he and the paid editor Sitush jointly vandalised Mr.Roy's Misplaced Pages bio-entry. Well, it is April 1. These abuses by Sitush and admins have been reported to Michelle Paulson and Philippe Beaudette, TheWikiIndian states. I only blocked him for two weeks for egregious personal attacks, which he repeated on his page after the block, so I removed talkpage access. But if anybody wants to indef him pending retraction of the legal threats, I won't stand in the way. There may be multiple reasons — a checkuser of TheWikiIndian vs the IP posting in this thread would be nice — but anyway, I started with two weeks. Bishonen | talk 10:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC).

• TheWikiIndian's claims are just bizarre. For example, I've supported deletion of Gopal Rai, Santosh Koli, Naveen Jaihind and Hemant kumar PY - those all relate to the Aam Aadmi Party that I'm suposedly being paid to support here and they're just the examples showing in my 7-day watchlist (others went before then). There is a lot of abuse of Misplaced Pages going on at the moment in the name of the Indian general election but I have absolutely nothing to gain from favouring one group or another: I'm not Indian, I'm not resident in that country, I've never voted in any government or local government election in any country, I'm not a member of any political association anywhere, etc. My only connection to India is a great-great-grandparent who was born in Bangalore to English parents who may have been very minor officials in the Raj or clerks to traders. She was back in England by the time she married, aged 21. - Sitush (talk) 10:45, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Community Ban Proposal for User:HRA1924

It's pretty obvious from the last several ANI threads about IAC that HRA1924 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and associated sock/meatpuppets are NOTHERE (or are here to RIGHTGREATWRONGS). I'm not generally a fan of community bans, but given the persistent sockpuppetry, legal threats, and refusal to understand how Misplaced Pages works, I think the ability to block and revert on sight would be a significant net positive for the encyclopedia.

• Support as proposer 207.38.156.219 (talk) 11:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Comment The problem is, we're not sure whether it is the same person or various meatpuppets. There are allegedly 29,000 people on the IAC mailing list hosted via riseup.net. Since it is an activist group and communicates in large part using electronic methods, I'd guess that there'll be quite a few different people acting in a co-ordinated manner here. We know that they've used open proxies here before, so things are really messy. I think admins just need to be aware that, for example, as soon as someone mentions paid editing/impersonation/libel/Indian legal system etc in connection with IAC then they're probably of the same tendentious origin and should be blocked at that point.

I've had some people in good standing from India contacting me about this: they would like something to be done that stops the torrent of clueless stuff coming here from the organisation. But they dare not get involved because they are in the country & so there are issues re: reprisals as well as the legal system. It should be borne in mind that practically anyone can open a case in India by filing a First Information Report - although that doesn't constitute a formal charge (as far as I am aware, but I'm no lawyer), it is a matter of public record & so can affect employment etc.

Ha! I've just noticed my very own AN is showing in the edit header for this page. As Bowie would say, we can be "heroes", just for one day ... - Sitush (talk) 13:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

On my talk page another IAC sock claims " 1,03,000+ edits 832+ still working accounts" while calling editors chutiyas.. Dougweller (talk) 17:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

This is he - 1 limb of the HRA1924 network. Can we discuss this sensibly without being banned and blocked ? FYI, I've been on Misplaced Pages for 9+ years, 1,03,000+ edits, and 833+ working user accounts. The HRA1924 "team" had 47+ years at Misplaced Pages and 6,00,000+ edits between us. And also FYI, we hardly ever edit India-centric articles. I only called Sitush thatTrangDocVan (talk) 17:13, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Not while y'all are still making legal threats (saying "this is not a legal threat" doesn't make it not a legal threat), baseless accusations, and personal attacks, no. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

@Sitush: Now there's an insteresting concept. We could deal with this coordination/canvasing via the authorized mechanisms laid out in WP:EEML or one of the related ArbCom cases. Yes I know this makes me the poster child for an attack by members of IAC (which ironically is trying to corrupt the wikipedia decision process) and for being an an ArbCom groupie, but as I recall this is the 4th or 5th time I've seen the topic come up so I consider it time to start taking hard actions against the instigators of wikidrama. Hasteur (talk) 17:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

As I understand it, we are being told that there is a very large network of editors - 833+ (more than a few hours ago) not including blocked editors, working together to edit Misplaced Pages. This sounds not good. Dougweller (talk) 20:52, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm currently looking into this matter. I've blocked additional accounts and will continue to investigate affected pages. FYI, here's a similar description at User:Turnitinpro. Elockid 23:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

77.97.151.145 and Talk:Sega Genesis

Could someone have a word with 77.97.151.145 (talk · contribs) and their contributions to this talk page, which consist entirely of intermittent abusive messages about renaming Sega Genesis to Mega Drive, (, , ) a discussion that has been done to death so much it has a prominent entry in WP:LAME. Cheers. Ritchie333 09:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Robomod

Robomod has been adding external links to fashionmodeldirectory.com since its first edit, now also crosswiki. I'm doubtful about good or bad faith. The template itself is questionable and imho that's clearly spam which should be checked by local sysops. --Vituzzu (talk) 11:04, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Dear Sysops. Dear Vituzzu. I'm not a spammer, spambot or anything that wants to harm Wiki at all. The reason why I have been adding a few links to FMD is simple. They have revamped their website and their new designer profiles (all profiles actually) are more than just useful for Misplaced Pages. The interconnectivity brings you from a designer profile to the brand of the designer , up to all the editorials , advertisements and works that have been done by the designer. From there you have the featured models, booked agencies. Generally speaking, I believe and many on Wiki do, that FMD offers the user a lot of informative material. And that's what external links are about.

I've not "only" done links to FMD, I actually write clearly on my user-profile what I am into on Wikipeda. I've contributed a lot of editorial work and also other external sources such as imdb. I love fashion and I love models, designers and brands. I also admit that I love FMD and that I spend hours hours on that website. If you consider the links I've added to you the designers being non-informative and spam, please highlight them and I will personally remove them and apologize for decreasing the quality on that parts. I don't think there are any. I'm also fine with being supervised in the future to show and prove that I am only acting in good faith.

I also believe that my judgment of how important fashion information is, is above the average wiki-editor and I’d love to point the perfect example and I kindly ask you all to consider the following under a neutral point-of-view:

I have linked to FMD from Driess van Noten with the following link:

http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/designers/dries-van-noten/ . The link provided contains an image of Dries (he is an awesome designer btw!) , describes with new content the designer himself and his look (wiki doesn’t do that).

From there the user is able to click on the associated brands: http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/designers/dries-van-noten/brands/ , which is only one in this case, but others like Versace have dozens of brands.

From there again, you have the brand profile , which to be honest should also be listed in the external links .

The brand profile (http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/brands/dries-van-noten/) offers even more about Dries as a brand, and includes contact details but the most important is: it shows me his last fashion shows http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/brands/dries-van-noten/shows/ and 560 (!) fully credited editorials : http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/brands/dries-van-noten/editorials/ .

I assume that Vituzzu didn’t notice this immense set of information when he/she accused me of being a spam, but I totally understand the concerns as mentioned above.

Generally speaking, I kindly ask you to not take any measures against me and my work on Wiki. I love Misplaced Pages and I love FMD, and with regards to all the information used here on Misplaced Pages which comes from FMD since the very beginning of Misplaced Pages (thousands of references?), I also think that Misplaced Pages owes this to FMD.

As for the crosswiki accusation: I'm multilingual , I'm fluent in Italian (sono anche cittadino italiano :)), German, mostly with French, even Croatian, Russian and a few more. I study languages. I also invite you to consider the fact that the remark in bold at the top of the page, saying "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page." was not followed, I would have been happy to have this discussed earlier. Kind regards ► robomod 11:58, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Please don't use imdb as a good example - it's not a reliable source. From a quick check, FMD is as bad as imdb and should never be used on Misplaced Pages of any language - using it would violate WP:EL and WP:SPAM. ES&L 12:39, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

You probably don't have the necessary background to know whether FMD is a good reliable source or not. I'm into fashion and I actually worked for a fashion label with both FMD and models.com, we - as a brand - sent these websites our press kits and official campaigns. If you consider FMD and IMDB to be so bad, then I believe 99% of the links should be removed and most fashion articles would have to be removed from Misplaced Pages as they rely on information of these websites. Furthermore, only accusing isn't the way here, tell me how and why you consider FMD not being reliable? They are a kind of authority in fashion business and I think you didn't check the facts with your "Quick check" (http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/info/about/). I also couldn't find any violations, you are welcome to point them out here. ► robomod 12:52, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

"we - as a brand - sent these websites our press kits and official campaigns" ... taadaaaa! And that's the reason it's not acceptable as an RS. Muchos gracias :-) ES&L 13:01, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

At that time, the brands sent the original images of the fashion shows and I am sure they still do. Otherwise how could they have 1Mio credited fashion images? It's actually reliable that way rather than getting the material from "anyonmous users". Wouldn't you agree? ► robomod 13:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

>that wants to harm Wiki at all

Sigh.

>adding a few links to FMD is simple

A few? Try a few hundred.

>They have revamped their website

When exactly was this? You've been adding links to this website since your third edit, which was nearly six years ago. Also, are you trying to promote this website? That paragraph reads suspiciously like a sales pitch to me. We have a guideline on external links and your fluff does not address this.

>many on Wiki do

>I also believe that my judgment of how important fashion information is

The lack of referenced content you have added in contrast to the number of links speaks otherwise.

> I also think that Misplaced Pages owes this to FMD.

Huh?

>we - as a brand - sent these websites our press kits and official campaigns... It's actually reliable that way rather than getting the material from "anyonmous users"

I was wondering why the site's profiles sounded like vapid promotionalism. What about the things the brands don't tell you?

Now for the million dollar question: why are the overwhelming majority of your edits and link additions to this website? You should have broader editing interests, having been here for six years and made over 1300 edits. MER-C 13:12, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I didn't notice it was that much. I agree that I was kinda crazy for fashion a few years ago. I am not related to Ford Models nor FMD. As for FMD, I've been helping in the past with submissions but stopped after they started to rarely accept user submissions. I do have two editors in my FB-profile but don't know them personally. That's all. When I wrote "owe" I meant that many articles on Misplaced Pages rely on their information. It was not meant in any bad way. I just feel that we need an administrator here who is also into fashion and understands the work of a designer. I must admit, it's horrible to get dashed by a couple friendly(?) administrators. Addendum: The revamp motivated me to add links, like it was back in 2010 at their last revamp. You see the parallels? I agree with your comment that I should have more interests than fashion alone. I'll change that in my behaviour. ► robomod 13:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

It's good to see this here at last, though I'd have thought Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Spam would be a more appropriate venue. This is major, wide-ranging, long-term spamming. {{Fashiondesigner}} was nominated for deletion by SilkTork in 2012, but the spam aspect did not come up in the discussion, such as it was. That template has 353 transclusions, {{Fashionmodel}} has 613, {{Fashionlabel}} 29. We seem to have 1857 external links to www.fashionmodeldirectory.com. A large proportion of those appear to have been added by just one user. I suggest that their utility to that website is lot greater than their utility to Misplaced Pages, and that they should be removed. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

"their utility to that website is lot greater than their utility to Misplaced Pages" . Please have a look at the model profiles my dear, how many information come from FMD? What benefit should they have from a link to a designer that has probably no visits per day? Viceversa you have for example 600 galleries to the brand or designer or model related? However, I leave the decision to the sysops and belive and hope they don't see it one-sided as you all do . I apologized but I am even more sorry for FMD that due to my behaviour I have probably ruined their reputation on Misplaced Pages. ► robomod 14:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Have you edited Misplaced Pages under any other names since you started editing as Robomod in 2008? NebY (talk) 14:26, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I have probably edited many articles, especially not-fashion-realted ones, more spontaneous without logging in. I should have logged in more often to prove that I am not a stupid spammer, as what I am exposed now. I did the triple of edits in the content and without log in, when I read an article and noticed mistakes (I suffer from perfectionism). Shouldn't be an excuse at all. I'm sad that my username may be deleted now. ► robomod 14:37, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, but that's not quite what I was asking. Have you edited while logged in with another name? (BTW, I don't believe anyone's saying they'll delete your username.) NebY (talk) 14:54, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh sorry. No, actually I have only this account. Is that somehow relevant? ► robomod 15:13, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

It is. You mentioned above that "many articles on Misplaced Pages rely on their information" so I looked for references to fashionmodeldirectory.com on Misplaced Pages and who had added them. On checking contribution histories, I saw the familiar signs of one person editing first with one account, then with another. One of those accounts was Robomod. I thought I should give you the opportunity to save some of your reputation here by owning up to those edits and revealing account names. I invite you to do so now. NebY (talk) 15:38, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Which reputation? I have no other accounts. "familiar signs"? Maybe someone copied the annotation, as I did in the past and others did as well. I think the SysOps can look that up anyway. This is turning into stoning like with the Talibans. Did anyone of you fabulous guys answer to my questions? I argumented everything and you are just trying to put dirt over me , over and over. Now I know what kind of people are managing Misplaced Pages. Do whatever you all must do as this is so ridiculous and you have fun in torturing people who try to argue seriously. ► robomod 15:51, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Don't worry, I'm not someone who manages Misplaced Pages - not by a long shot. I've written up what I've found at WP:Sockpuppet_investigations/Robomod; there's space for you and others to comment there. NebY (talk) 18:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Just as a last note before I leave the place: It is said that nobody of those who bashed me now have answered the questions I asked. I apologized and I also defended myself with argument whcih were left apart. I hope the sysops don't judge my wrong contributing, but moreover look at what is found at the end of the links. It's not spam, it gives you much more information about all the profiles I have linked and I thought that this is the understanding of adding an external link. Please consider the above example of how much of further information a Misplaced Pages-user is able to find by following it. Thanks for reading me. ► robomod 14:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• I personally find the information provided in the FMD website quite useful. I have requested for a few modifications to be done in a number of profiles in the past and they require members to provide reliable sources beforehand, regarding the new information being submitted, if not it gets rejected. That speaks a lot of how professional and accurate they strive to be. Furthermore, most, if not all, of the fashion-related articles in Misplaced Pages are based on information from FMD. Just take a look at the Chanel article, for example, and how many notes use FMD as their reference (https://en.wikipedia.org/Chanel#References). If links to FMD are removed, I'm pretty sure it would hurt Misplaced Pages more than FMD, but then the same should be done with links to Models.com, IMDB or other similar informative databases. -- Lancini87 (talk) 16:04, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• The problem is that we have here administrators who are not able to evaluate this. They see my account with many links to them and for them it's spam now. Noone of the above have visited the website from my example above. Where the link to Dries van Noten turns into an information flood that Wiki can't provide. And I agree, they should remove all articles that contain information from FMD. After all FMD is just like a fashion-Misplaced Pages, with the difference that you can't just edit and add funny information. ► robomod 16:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of whether the editors here can properly evaluate a modeling website, posting links to your website shows a clear conflict of interest WP:COI ...Misplaced Pages shouldn't be used to promote a product, service or website and adding links to your website in external links on multiple articles is a kind of self-promotion. As far as reliable sources, Misplaced Pages prefers independent, secondary source that have some kind of editorial process (peer-reviewed journals, mainstream newspapers who have managing editors, books that are not self-published, etc.). What is not prized is a blog or website that reflects a particular individual's point of view, unless the article is about that individual and his POV. Liz 18:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Liz. Please note that this is not my website, but I wish it was. Your comment is practically in line with what FMD is. They are seen as a neutral authority within the fashion industry, just like models.com, but with the difference that they don't accept any advertisings and promotions from any listed entities (see their about-page posted earlier : It says "FMD is not a place to buy promotion"). And they have independent managing editors ] just like Misplaced Pages has, some of them are accredited journalists (two of them I have on Facebook as mentioned earlier). I think I shall invite the editors from FMD to this discussion, since we are now talking about a punishment of their property although the mistake of "spamminG was mine. ► robomod 18:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

i personally don't think that this is such a big issue at all. why make an issue over legitimate and reliable content information from a source that is most comprehensive when it comes to fashion data. if you look closely you will see that 90 percent of models info comes from the fashion model directory. for that matter if we are speaking about the legitimacy and reliability of data then for that matter why not question models.com, supermodels.nl or any other such service? imho i honestly feel that this is a totally biased and unjust situation that is being directed in effort towards User:Robomod. for that matter there are thousands and thousands of companies that have users on wikipedia editing and posting content on their behalf. why is the legitimacy not in question for them? if your intent is to bash user:Robomod i think the message has been sent across loud and clear. Clintong (talk) 18:36, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! I did a mistake, I apologized for linking to many times (although my userpage states that I'm linking to other databases since ever!) and now they are trying to punish a fashion database that was source of thousands of fashion articles. ► robomod 18:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Inappropriate public slur by WilyD on another editor's character at RfD

At this RfD discussion, WilyD (talk · contribs) has publicly and completely unfairly accused another editor, Gorobay (talk · contribs), of "making racist slurs". The accusation is unfair because the other editor nominated a redirect in Macedonian to the article Work ethic with the rationale "not especially Macedonian" amongst a batch of similar nominations for cross-lingual redirects, with similar rationales in each case.

I removed the comment and replaced it with {{redacted}} (which I now notice is meant to be subst'ed — my mistake), as I consider making public accusations of that nature about an innocent editor as being grossly inappropriate. However, I noted at the time that I was willing to assume good faith as to the comment's origin: namely that WilyD misunderstood the nomination (as Gorobay was clearly stating that our article "Work ethic" is not tied to a Macedonian title, not talking about the Macedonian people). Which I must also say is stretching AGF to its limit, because WilyD has also replied to several of those other nominations without making the same error. However, WilyD subsequently restored the accusation. I removed it again, only for WilyD to restore it again (and in the process delete my additional comment noting the re-removal).

I think that my action in removing this grotesque and uncalled-for public slur on the character of another editor was entirely justified under WP:TPO, and that WilyD is acting entirely inappropriately in trying to force its inclusion in the page. I would appreciate hearing some opinions about whether I'm right or wrong. — Scott • talk 11:34, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Seems to me he's taking the piss. Anyway, where did you attempt to discuss it with him? — lfdder 11:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

That would be where I replied to his comment on the page, and he replied to it with an edit summary, and I replied with a comment on the page again, which he deleted while replying with an edit summary. That's discussion enough for me. — Scott • talk 11:52, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

While I don't particularly think it's Gorobay's intention to write something that comes across as racist, rather, merely sloppiness, it's also pretty unambiguous that writing "Work ethic is not especially Macedonian" carries a lot of racist baggage, and isn't appropriate. I haven't made the same statement on other nominations don't carry quite the same problem (though I think you could make a legitimate case that trying to make en.wiki less usable, rather than more useable, for readers with moderate English skills is ethnically insensitive, which is relevant to the background here). Intent is not really taken as critical, rather, when one accidentally makes a racist statement, they should retract or modify it, rather than complain about being called out. I would be willing to redact that comment if Gorobay changed his nomination statement to something not carrying this kind of racist baggage. WilyD 13:25, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

It is obviously not a racist statement, you're intentionally misinterpreting it, and misquoting him to make it sound more like racism is shameful. If you are going to double down and claim it is, then let's handle it this way: if you falsely accuse someone of making racist statements again, you'll be blocked from editing, the same as any non-admin would be. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:37, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

(ec) Oh puh-leeeze. What Gorobay wrote was entirely obvious and clear, and reading that ethnic slur into it takes a really, really twisted approach. Seriously, WilyD, you are seeing phantoms here. And if you were aware that Gorobay (evidently) didn't intend to mean what you think could be understood from it, the right thing for you to say would still not have been "stay away from making racist slurs", but something like "by the way, I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but your statement could be misread as an ethnic slur; could you please re-word it?". I very strongly recommend you go there now and reword it along those lines, because the way you phrased it, you are in fact imputing racist intent to him, and that is a personal attack, on your part. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

WilyD, I initially read this expecting to agree with you but I think we can chalk this up to a misunderstanding. Scott should have talked it over with you instead of directly redacting your comment and Gorobay could have picked a different phrasing, but I don't think this was anything more than an unintended double entendre. I agree with Future Perfect here (and also do think that Gorobay should revise his comment). NW (Talk) 14:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:TPO doesn't require you to talk over anything for a comment as inappropriate as the one that I removed (which is still visible, by the way), and reading the rest of Gorobay's nominations in context makes it quite clear that his comment is in no need of revision. — Scott • talk 16:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Fut.Perf. and NW here. If Wily had concerns about the phrasing of a statement which they understood but felt could be misintepreted, they should have carefully approached Gorobay about it rather than making an accusation of racism when it's clear none was intended. If Scott had concerns about Wily's accusation, they should have approached Wily about it, at least before coming to ANI.

If Scott or Wily are going to claim they should not have had to do this because of whatever policy, guideline, let's consider the outcomes here. If Wily is genuinely concerned that the statement would be misread and people may consider to be intentionally racist, then the far better outcome is for this statement to be quickly reworded without a fuss. What isn't a desirable outcome is for a big controversy and illwill all around, for more people to read it and for the person who made the statement to possibly be reluctant to change it because of their anger about an unfair accusation. Having a quite polite discussion with someone is far more likely to achieve the first outcome, and doing what Wily did is far more likely to achieve the second outcome which is where we are now. (Although to be clear, I'm not saying Gorobay is relucant to change it because of this. I have no idea if they feel that way or are even aware of this controversy. I'm just saying it's possible that would happen and I understand why they would feel that way).

We can say more or less the same thing to Scott. The fact of the matter is whatever may or may not have been required, the comment is still visible and has been exposed to even more people via ANI, so it's unclear how this helps Gorobay in any way. While obviously I can't guarantee, Wily would have behaved better if approached via their talk page, the way things happened here isn't surprising considering the way Scott approached things. This includes the fact that people here at ANI, while generally disagreeing with Wily, are also confused why Scott didn't talk to Wily first (which someone with the experience of Scott must know is often the first question at ANI when applicable).

Incidentally, I actually partially agree with Wily that it would be far better if the comment is reworded. While it's not intriscly a racist statement and it's clear Gorobay didn't mean anything by it and I don't think it was sloppy for Gorobay to word it so, there is a risk it will be misread. People may read the statement without reading the other nominations on the page and so not see the statement in context. In fact, for people unfamiliar with en.wikipedia redirect guidelines and norms, if they only read that statement and not the followups, they may not understand the deletion proposal at all which may further add to that risk.

Nil Einne (talk) 00:20, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, someone better put a lid on this now there's still time. — lfdder 13:34, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

1241edit

I think we have some issues with 1241edit, and to put it simply :

• WP:Sock puppetry : a second account, Ss1241, was discovered on the French Misplaced Pages this morning, and thus banned. Do you need a RCU here as well, or is the result on FR enough ?
• WP:No personal attacks : this second account has been used this morning to give me a "Warnning for Vandalism". Needless to say that "Vandalism" is not exactly what I have done. The main account is currently blocked on FR for the same kind of misbehaving.

From what I can see, he or she has had multiple warnings here, but also on Wikicommons. --XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 13:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

What a user does on another wiki is outside the remit of the English wiki, so a banned user on the French Wiki will not be banned on the English wiki unless they have violated the policies here. Each wiki is self contained with its own independent policies. You would have to go to Metawiki to have their account globally locked but that would be a whole new level of policy violation. Blackmane (talk) 14:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I mean, do you need a new RCU to prove that 1241edit = Ss1241 or not ? As far as I know, if you have multiple accounts, you have to declare them, not use one of them to insult an other contributor when you want to. --XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 15:39, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, if you believe they're violating WP:SOCK#LEGIT on the English Misplaced Pages, you can open an WP:SPI DP 19:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that using a sockpuppet to issue fake "Warnning for Vandalism" could fall under the scope of Misplaced Pages:SOCK#LEGIT ? I don't need to prove that those accounts belong to the same person, Template:Frit has been proven already, so I'm not going to waste check users' time.

Just take one minute to read all the warnings that he/she has received already. --XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 19:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• It's not whether it's the same person, it's whether they are using two accounts legitimately. Follow the link you were provided with. Panda, an SPI won't be necessary here, I think. Drmies (talk) 00:38, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

• Alright. I warned both that only one account should be used. I left a warning for incorrectly warning for vandalism. That's it, for now. And now we clean up the directory entry called Pierre-and-Marie-Curie University (University of Paris 6). Drmies (talk) 00:45, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Roy Harter et al

• Roy Harter (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Skinnyman (studio) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Dave McDonald (radio personality) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Skinnyman2010 (talk · contribs)
• 208.68.178.38 (talk · contribs)
• Royharter (talk · contribs)

Hate to bring this here, but I've already requested help at the BLP and username noticeboards, and asked that Roy Harter be protected, with no responses yet. A network of related and largely vanity articles by COI accounts, with copyright and poor sourcing problems and the possibility of sock or meat puppeting. Thanks, JNW (talk) 14:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. Did I do something wrong? I apologize if I did. I'm trying to fix the article by citing references. Thank you. Skinnyman2010 (talk) 16:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I responded to a request, and now the requestor tells me I have "no consensus"

User:Timeshift9 asked me (on my talk page) to make edits to Full results of the South Australian state election, 2010 and Full results of the South Australian state election, 2014. So, in good faith, I made them.
User:Timeshift9 then said I had no consensus to make such edits, and now seems to want to engage in an edit war.
You are probably not surprised to learn that I'm unimpressed by his response. And you are also probably not surprised that as I went to considerable effort (note: considerable) to make the changes he requested, I am quite pissed off. PARTICULARLY as I could have just ignored the request, or even politely responded: "No thanks."
But I didn't. I took him at face value, assumed good faith, and made the requested edits.
So, please advise where I should go from here. Thanks in advance, Pdfpdf (talk) 15:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Looks to me like the other editor asked you to change article A to follow the example of article B, and you changed the layout of both article A and article B. Apparently the changes you made were different from the ones he had in mind. There's nothing wrong with that: having asked you to do something doesn't preclude him from having further opinions. I suggest getting opinions on the layout from additional editors interested in Australian elections. --Amble (talk) 04:22, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Potential abuse of power

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This discussion was subject to a discussions for discussion discussion on April 1, 2014. The result of the discussion was no consensus on whether a consensus exists in the discussion about the discussion on whether the original discussion should be closed as no consensus.

Spartaz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is mass deleting the joke AFD nominations that happen every year, simply because they don't like them. Almost every red link on this page is due to them. Editors have tried to talk to them about it, but they continue to claim that the nonsense is "disruption". However, doesn't WP:FOOLS say that jokes only need to be kept where casual readers won't see them? Not only is AFD a place where casual readers don't go, every page I've seen has been tagged as "humorous" so they are clearly identifiable as jokes. The page also says "As long as you follow these rules, feel free to have some fun on April Fools' Day. There is consensus against a complete ban of jokes on April Fools'." So it seems that these joke AFD nominations are not considered disruptive, and do not break any rules. It would seem that Spartaz is simply abusing his power to delete stuff they don't like. To conclude, it is perfectly all right to have some fun here on April 1, and one admin disliking it doesn't change that. NealCruco (talk) 17:51, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• You're joking, right? Drmies (talk) 18:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, if he's not, I am not either.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Not necessarily. Spartaz is being a bit heavy-handed here. In fact, one could argue that deleting TenPoundHammer's user page is actually disruptive, unlike the joke AfDs Spartaz is determined to censor. Northern Antarctica (₵) 18:26, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Well, you didn't respond to my question, so I'm going to block you for being incommunicado. Just remember, indefinite is not infinite. Drmies (talk) 18:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Also, while Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2014 April 1 is kind of funny (and deleted by RHaworth, who last laughed when Benny Hill was still on TV), though not as funny as Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2014 April 1, it's a joke that wears thin pretty quickly. I mean, who's going to comment on such a metametametametaMfD? Drmies (talk) 18:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• If Spartaz doesn't find these jokes funny, why did he delete TPH's userpage? Was he doing it to be POINTy? Northern Antarctica (₵) 18:30, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• He is in violation the official April 1 policy  :( . Count Iblis (talk) 18:25, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

  That's not official policy. Please find the real policy and see if Spartaz is indeed in violation (he might be). Northern Antarctica (₵) 18:28, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

  WP:Rules for Fools shows the current consensus. For anything else on Misplaced Pages, it's considered bad behaviour to act against established consensus. I don't see why this should be any different. CodeCat (talk) 18:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• To be honest, I agree. If there is consensus that jokes should be ok, it doesn't seem proper for an admin who doesn't like it to start deleting things and ruin it for everyone else. CodeCat (talk) 18:26, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Weeeeell, I can't believe I'm jumping to Spartaz's defense here, but "ruin it for everyone else"? That's hardly what's going on here, and there are still plenty of jokes around. Just look in Category:Pokemon. Drmies (talk) 18:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Joking is serious business - it must not be dis'd. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:30, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

where the joke doesn't mess up what the poor innocent reader of articles sees, anyway. That way lies things like this NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:33, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• No, I am not joking. I am being completely serious. There is consensus that April Fools' Day jokes are OK on Misplaced Pages, as long as they are kept out of the mainspace and properly tagged. The pages I've seen that Spartaz hasn't yet deleted satisfy both of these conditions. He, therefore, has no right to delete them. Doing so is an abuse of power. You can't just delete stuff you don't like. NealCruco (talk) 18:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
• User:DrmiesMeh. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I note that Misplaced Pages:April_1_guidelines and Misplaced Pages:Rules_for_Fools give 100% opposite and contradictory advice from each other. Likely leading to some of this confusion (Perhaps one of them is itself a meta joke?) In any case, I would suggest one of them be deleted so we at least have a consistent set of guidelines/policy for how these jokes should work.Gaijin42 (talk) 18:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I am almost positive that Misplaced Pages:April_1_guidelines is a joke and I have removed the {{policy}} template and added a {{humor}} template. GB fan 20:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Nothing disruptive there then? :rolleyes: Spartaz 20:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• I was confused by that as well. I agree that there should be one single page where all guidelines and such are collected. CodeCat (talk) 18:57, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
• I've submitted a merge request at Misplaced Pages talk:April Fools#Merge Misplaced Pages:Rules for Fools and Misplaced Pages:April 1 guidelines into this. CodeCat (talk) 19:05, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
• Just as there is no policy that guarantees the right to April Fools jokes, there is also no policy preventing admins from dealing with the banality as they see fit (by either closing the AfD or deleting it). ‑Scottywong| spill the beans _ 19:30, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

There is a policy to stop admins deleting joke XfDs, but one that might allow it. They can be speedily kept though. Dark Sun (talk) 19:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• • (EC) Just as a point of order I deleted 'one AFD - which was for Stephen Colbert as it was clearly disruptive and borderline blpvio (seriously, if anyone can't see why this particular AFD was a bad idea they shouldn't be editing here). Beyond that I only deleted 8 MFDs - including one particularly amusing one that was designed to induce users to accidentally log out so that presumably everyone can have a big chuckle when the victims then edit with their ip address exposed. I restored one of the pages I deleted as it was a link page for the jokes. I also deleted TPHs user page since they had asked for it to be deleted at MFD. Before anyone argues that this was POINTy, I would suggest that it was no more disruptive then putting it up for MFD in the first place and I did restore it the moment TPH asked. So yeah, BIG FAT HAIRY DEAL I'm a big meanie party-pooper who should be desysoppsed for my terrible crimes. Alternatively we can all piss off and do something useful instead of wasting time with this nonsense. I might take this more seriously if the original complainant had more then 94 edits in two years and had actually bothered to engage me on the subject on my talk page. Maybe that bit of courtesy and rules following only applies to admins? Spartaz 20:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
• I don't really like this line, taken from a discussion on Spartaz's talk page: "If you don't like the cap don't behave like a child." Tons of kids edit Misplaced Pages, myself included, and it isn't fair to discriminate based on age. I think it's ok to have one day a year when we can joke around and have some fun. While I understand that some may not participate, it's not as if Misplaced Pages is going to implode from a few jokes. -Newyorkadam (talk) 20:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Newyorkadam

• It's unbecoming for an admin to be dismissive and rude like that. It's also unbecoming for an admin to delete a page simply because he or she doesn't like the page. Northern Antarctica (₵) 20:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Actually I deleted them because it was disruptive not because I didn't like them. But then, since you haven't engaged with me to discuss my reasoning I guess its easier to use your super mindreading skill to make judgements about my motivations. I accept I could have used a better edit summary when I removed two MFD tags from live pages because they were also disruptive I'm still astonished that so much heat and light is being generated here over pretty much nothing. Spartaz 20:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• When you unilaterally delete something because you deem it disruptive, you should expect to be held accountable for your actions. I don't mind that you removed MfD tags from live pages and that isn't the issue being here. The issue is that you may have overstepped the boundaries of your authority, especially in deleting TPH's user page (which is downright POINTy and probably more disruptive than the MfDs you deleted). Northern Antarctica (₵) 20:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Maybe I have and maybe I haven't, but don't assume you know what my motivations are without first talking to me and this nice little Kangeroo court isn't the place to have that discussion is it? Spartaz 20:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Is this level of condescension necessary, Spartaz? Connormah (talk) 20:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

At least as necessary as this discussion is. Spartaz 20:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Where there's condensation, the grass gets wit. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:48, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Very good. NAEG. I LOLed. Spartaz 20:56, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I support Spartaz's deletions, as well as the condescension. For subsequent April Fools days, I'd support a policy whereby you get blocked for the remainder of the day if you create a joke XFD that is not funny, as determined by a neutral administrator. ‑Scottywong| chatter _ 21:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

You say "that is not funny" like there's any other kind. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:12, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

@Scottywong, I support the proposal to let admins decide joke XFD's, provided the admin is really, really, truly neutral. For determination whether joke XFDs are in fact funny, the admin must be so neutral that they neither have nor lack a sense of humor. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:18, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• How about a rule that April Fools' jokes are OK as long as they're (a) funny (b) imaginative (c) not disruptive and (d) no-one's done them before? That should pretty much ensure that 99.9% don't happen. Black Kite (talk) 21:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• April Fools' Jokes would be much funnier if some people didn't run around screaming that they weren't funny and draining all the fun of the day. Northern Antarctica (₵) 21:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• They would certainly be a lot funnier if (a) any of them were funny and/or hadn't been done dozens of times before, and (b) some of them weren't rank fucking stupidity like AfDing BLPs or inducing editors to log out and reveal their IPs. Black Kite (talk) 21:28, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• OK, one more remark, courtesy of Bongomatic, and now available at Template:Not funny. No need to subst. Drmies (talk) 22:34, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

For each unfunny joke that has never been told, there are a hundred other jokes that were hilarious when they were never told. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Steeletrap reverts to Austrian Economics Sanctions article – Request for sanctions

Background: This is regarding an edit made by User:Steeletrap in which a (contentious) edit was made while a discussion has been ongoing.

• There is an ArbCom case pending in which User:Steeletrap (and I) are parties. See: Pending Arbcom.
• The article in question (Walter Block) is subject to General Sanctions. Steeletrap has been notified of those sanctions. The article talk page has a General Sanctions notification template.
• The editors involved with this particular piece had, to greater or lesser extent, agreed to a voluntary IBAN/TBAN. USER:SPECIFICO did not agree to the IBAN/TBAN. The ban between Steeletrap & myself seems to be void. User:Carolmooredc agreed to the IBAN/TBAN and seems to remains bound by the bans.
• Steeletrap has complained to an Admin about my edits. See: User_talk:Adjwilley#User:Srich32977_editing_AE_pages & Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Austrian_economics/Proposed_decision#Dispute_continues. (No action was taken.)

Edits:

1. At Steeletrap adds material about Walter Block.
2. At User:Carolmooredc reverts the edit.
3. At I open a BRD on the particular edit, noting the sanctions and inviting discussion.
4. At User:SPECIFICO restores the material. (No participation in the BRD was undertaken by Specifico.)
5. At I revert the edit and point out the specific talk page location for the BRD.
6. Steeletrap engages in the discussion, see: Talk:Walter_Block#Writeup_in_NYT_opinion_piece. Specifico also contributes.
7. At Steeletrap restores the material.

I submit: The discussion has been on-going, but not all issues (particularly WP:BLPFIGHT) have not been resolved. One of the interested editors (Carolmooredc) has not participated in the discussion (perhaps as per her voluntary IBAN/TBAN). There has been no RFC submitted on the edits. There has been no request for closure submitted. But, most importantly, there is no consensus for this BLP related edit. Accordingly, I submit that Steeletrap's restoration of the material violates the General Sanctions which pertain to this article and sanctions should be applied. – S. Rich (talk) 19:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Without regard to the merits or non merits of these edits I will note a very recent ANI discussion which pointed out WP:NOCONSENSUS says " However, for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it." which would make the default action remove, until there is a positive consensus for inclusion. This is echoed in Misplaced Pages:BLP#Restoring_deleted_content "To ensure that material about living people is written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Misplaced Pages's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first, and wherever possible disputed deletions should be discussed first with the administrator who deleted the article. Material that has been repaired to address concerns should be judged on a case-by-case basis." although that second policy bit appears to be written assuming the entire article was deleted, and not just a particular bit of content. Beyond that, with the sanctions on the page, it seems that this is an area where some level of enforcement may be needed. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:18, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

If three editors agree to an IBAN and violate it then the ANI should be about the resumption of disruptive editing, not a transplanted inappropriate content dispute at ANI. Take it to RSN or BLPN if you have genuine policy based concerns. Last I looked, Srich was changing his reasoning every time he posted, and the primary behavioral issue is not Steeletrap's content edit, which does not violate policy, but rather the Carolmoore's and Srich's violations of their IBAN given the sequence of events, I'm not sure but I think it is possible that Steeletrap also violated the IBAN. SPECIFICO talk 19:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

AFAICT, the primary issues (positing that the material is about a living person, thus automatically falling under WP:BLP) are whether the material in the added material is intrinsically "contentious", whether the material is a "contentious claim" asserted in Misplaced Pages's voice, whether the material is "opinion clearly cited as opinion", and whether the material has a clear consensus for inclusion if it passes the other bars.

The first source (NYT article on Rand Paul) is neither primarily about Block, nor does it go into any factual specifics about his views other than in a clearly "sound bite" format, which Block clearly pointed out. Thus it is not actually a fact-checked reliable source about Block, although it clearly would pass usage at Rand Paul for its statements specifically about Paul. It is clearly an "opinion piece" with regard to its en passant mentions of Block. The NYT article clearly is not a "strong reliable source" about Block, especially where the issue of "out of context" has been clearly raised by Block. Thus that source, independently of any other considerations fails to meet WP:BLP as a source, much less a source for a contentious statement.

The second source provided in the edit at issue is from lewrockwell.com and is written by Block substantially as a retort to the NYT article which is not usable in itself, so I would rule out the response to material which fails WP:RS without debating whether the source otherwise would be usable.

Lastly we have the "insidehighered" source. The article is clearly an opinion piece, and by Misplaced Pages dicta is only usable for its opinions ascribed to Scott Jaschik as his opinion and not stated as fact in Misplaced Pages's voice. Any facts therein ought to be sourced to a separate non opinion secondary reliable source if we wish to use them.

We thus end up with one actual usable reliable source, albeit one which is substantially an opinion piece and not a dispassionate piece of reportage.

To the extent that the section is trying to specifically deal with NYT editorial opinions, it pretty much fails the primary Misplaced Pages tests of "Is it of encyclopedic value to readers seeking information on the topic?" and "Is it a contentious claim?" It also fails on the implicit claim which is clearly "contentious" that Block would approve in some way of racism and slavery, as material in opinion pieces frequently is taken "out of context" as apparently Block argues.

I suggest therefore that the material as presented does not have strong reliable sources, although some of the claims in the insidehighered piece would be usable if sourced to clear reliable fact sources, that the material is contentious, that it would require both acceptable reliable secondary sources not based as editorial pieces and also a consensus of editors on the article. Cheers (long answer, I know - but wish to cover this in a logical manner) Collect (talk) Collect (talk) 21:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Collect, are you and Srich opening up a new version of Misplaced Pages? I ask because you seem to be parroting his imaginary policies. For instance, you claim that the NYT article cannot be used because Block is not the main point of the article. There is no policy suggesting that. You also repeat his statement that the piece, which was written by reporters for the Times news section, is an 'opinion piece.' Seriously, do you boys read newspapers? Read a Paul Krugman, Ross Douthat, David Brooks, or Maureen Dowd piece and tell me if it remotely resembles the report on Rand Paul's ideological influences. Moreover, the claim in question -- that Block thinks slavery was "not so bad" apart from its being involuntary -- is not a claim of opinion but a claim of fact: it's either true or false that Block believes this. The burden of proof is on you to show that the Times and its writers were misrepresenting an opinion piece as a news piece (the assumption on WP is that NYT is RS).

17 of Block's academic colleagues and the President of his university disagree with your view that it is unreliable. They were sufficiently satisfied by the accuracy of the quotation to publicly criticize Block for it. To my knowledge, no reliable sources agree with Block's claims of misrepresentation, despite the substantial coverage this story has generated. If you are concerned that the quote about slavery is too brief, you are welcome to expand it. (Block provides the full context of the quotation in his response article; anyone is free to quote his entire remark.) However, purging reliable sources and notable controversies from an article is contrary to policy.

Finally, is a BLP/RS issue rather than a behavioral issue. The question is whether the New York Times and Inside Higher Education pieces are reliable sources, not whether Miss Steele is an incorrigible trouble maker. It should be moved to the appropriate forum. Steeletrap (talk) 21:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

"purging reliable sources and notable controversies from an article is contrary to policy. " Somehow I've missed you making that argument in the Gun control debate... Perhaps you meant to say notable controversies you agree with? Gaijin42 (talk) 22:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC

I thank User:Gaijin42 for the no-consensus link. It applies to a certain extent, but is pre-mature. That is, the Walter Block discussion is on-going, not all possibly interested parties have participated (such as CarolMooreDC), and only some of the issues have been resolved (e.g., use of "however".) The problem is that Steeletrap seeks to re-introduce the BLP material while the discussion is going on. Also, Steeletrap describes my reversion of the BLP material as "cleansing" and "purging" and "OR" and now Collect is "parroting" my "imaginary" policies. It comes down to this – Steeletrap has a personal distain for the Ludwig von Mises Institute and people associated with it. Steeletrap is importing a BLP fight into Misplaced Pages. Steeletrap is TE by re-introducing the material before consensus is reached (or not reached). Steeletrap's behavior in this is unacceptable. – S. Rich (talk) 22:21, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

BRD is a principle, not a policy. I tried to work with you in fairly representing Block's response, and to make the content more neutral. But you insisted on purging everything, from the 17 academic colleagues, to the university president, to the New York Times. Given the highly notable and imminently reliable nature of this material, your conduct is unacceptable. I cannot sit by idly while you 'cleanse' well-sourced content from an article based on no cogent argument. Steeletrap (talk) 22:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

BRD is a principle that reflects the overwhelming WP:CONSENSUS of Misplaced Pages's editors - and WP:CONSENSUS is policy. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:02, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Consensus is a dynamic process. Editing (not just discussion) is part of building a consensus. Rich should have reverted whatever part of my edit he found objectionable, rather than purging everything and taking me to a noticeboard. I am not edit warring; my last edit to the article before un-doing Rich's reversion today was several weeks ago. Steeletrap (talk) 00:33, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

How on earth Steeletrap can say a re-re-revert to the particular material – while the discussion is going on – is "building a consensus" is beyond me. Steeletrap wants Steeletrap's particular version. – S. Rich (talk) 01:26, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I believe you missed my point. You can't discard WP:BRD as "just a principle", because it reflects the consensus of Misplaced Pages's editors on the subject - people can and have been blocked for ignoring the "D" in "BRD". And even with "several weeks" gap between reverts an edit-war is still an edit-war. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:26, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I didn't know that performing one revert (ever) constitutes an edit war. Is the meaning of that term whatever admin says it is? Steeletrap (talk) 02:47, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Primus1x

Primus1x has engaged in an edit war on Gundam Build Fighters by copying and pasting plot summary information from Gundam.info. He even admitted to plagiarism on this quote on my Talk page:

This is a false-accusation. I have made no claim whatsoever that I wrote the synopses myself, it is the work of whoever writes GundamInfo's descriptions for each episode. And if you have a problem with the way that they write, you take it up with them not me. Even if you believe you can write better, it would be unofficial and fan-made regardless. These are the official synopses do not remove them in favour of fan-written and inaccurate synopses for which the only source is watching the primary source; the entire series, and thus conform less to Misplaced Pages's guidelines regarding sources. --Primus1x (talk) 15:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

He's also hinted at a personal attack based on the tone of his writing. - Areaseven (talk) 00:21, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I've put an explanation of copyright law on his talk page along with a warning not to do this any more. Thank you for reporting this problem, Areaseven. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:19, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

OMG hot girl style vandalism--range block requested

Range blockers, please see what you can do about 198.228.220.192 and 198.228.220.75, and when you're done, feel free to unprotect ANI, which I semi-locked for the while. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 01:13, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

• That is kind of a big range, /16, but I blocked a smaller subset, 198.228.220.1/24 for 31 hours and unprotected. We will see if that helps. If not, maybe have to jump to a /20 or so. I've never done a /16, which is the largest that they will trust to admin. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:32, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
  • This reminds me of a conversation about size I once witnessed involving a Belgian artist and some American actors, only it was about cock rings. His ring was HUGE. Thanks Dennis. Drmies (talk) 02:06, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Few people are able to successfully create an analogy comparing IP subnets to jewelry for the penis, but once again, you've managed to link the unlinkable. It is a talent, I suppose ;). You're welcome. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 02:10, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
      • I'm glad to see that April Fools Day is over, and we've returned to the level of seriousness commensurate with a project of this kind of comic importance. BMK (talk) 03:37, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

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