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RfC on the chronological order of US Presidential election result tables

RfC question: Should United States presidential election results tables be displayed in standard chronological order or reverse chronological order? RfC relisted by Cunard (talk) at 01:41, 19 April 2020 (UTC). – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 22:59, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Hello everyone,

In time for this year's United States presidential election, I've been thinking about standardizing the US Presidential election results tables in counties and municipalities (see Cook County, Illinois#Politics for an example) and plan to deploy {{PresHead}}, {{PresRow}}, and {{PresFoot}} to that effect more this year now that issues with substituting PresRow and PresFoot have been fixed by Pppery. However, I have a question to ask before I do so.

WP:SALORDER says that lists should be in standard chronological order, but the de facto standard with these tables has always been to put them in reverse chronological order. To the best of my knowledge there has never been a discussion or explicit consensus for or against this order. SALORDER does make an exception for frequently-updated lists such as the deaths in the current year, but once every four years hardly qualifies as such a frequency, and those lists are put into normal chronological order once they are no longer as frequently updated. One could argue with merit that recent results are more important and useful to an average reader than old results, and therefore some IAR can happen to allow reverse chronological order, but I've never seen it expressly ratified or repudiated.

Perhaps this could be better at an RfC, but I think this is an appropriate and sufficient venue. There was some consensus in this discussion from June to change them to standard chronological order, but it was weak and secondary to the main topic, IMO, so I'm looking for a clearer and more explicit consensus.

– John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 00:20, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I’m happy with the current reverse order but have definitely seen inconsistency in other sorts of election results elsewhere. I think because it’s a single table that’s by default hidden reverse is okay. Thanks for your work on this! Reywas92 00:32, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
I do tend to agree that reverse order tends to be better for this, but it's nice to get a firm consensus on this. And thanks! :) – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 00:35, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
It really doesn't matter strongly to me, but my preference for these lists is the standard chronological order (similar to lists of members of congress from a particular congressional district). --Enos733 (talk) 02:24, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
  • I favor following WP:SALORDER which is forward chronological order. Make the tables sortable, and then follow SALORDER – anyone who wants to see reverse chronological order can simply reverse sort. Best of both worlds: follows the MOS, while still allowing for a format/sorting that will be of interest to many readers. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:18, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
This is also the solution I would favor: sortable chronological order. Wykx (talk) 08:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

1997 UK General Election map wrong

Just been pointed out to me elsewhere that the current map shows Teignbridge as a Lib Dem seat in 1997 when the Conservatives narrowly held it. I've corrected it myself, but don't appear to have any ability to overwrite the current one. See below.ImperatordeElysium (talk) 22:50, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

File:UK General Election 1997.svg

@ImperatordeElysium: If you go to the File on Wikimedia Commons, you should be able to upload your version over the top of the old one using the "Upload new version" button. Or if that doesn't work, contact Mirrorme22, who uploaded the original file. Number 57 19:21, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
@ImperatordeElysium: Hello. I have corrected this error. Mirrorme22 (talk) 16:06, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

RfC on Infoboxes: Should there always be two candidates?

This is an interesting and well-designed RfC concerning infoboxes. Generally, a Misplaced Pages article should be a summary of the reliable sources, and where editors have chosen to use an infobox, the infobox is a summary of the Misplaced Pages article. The basic job of an encyclopaedist is to write summaries, and Wikipedians generally have a lot of practice at it, so we don't normally find infoboxes difficult. However, not everything fits neatly into a pithy entry in an infobox, and that's why infoboxes come up so much at RfC.In the matter of elections, previous discussions have reached consensus that if the article contains an infobox, then the infobox should usually contain at least two candidates, even in cases where the winning candidate received a very overwhelming share of the vote. Like all content decisions, this consensus allows for occasional exceptions in unusual cases.This discussion seeks to establish numerical thresholds for the inclusion of second place candidates. Wikipedians have not been able to agree on any such set of thresholds, so in some cases decisions will need to be made individually on article talk pages. However, the 5% threshold does enjoy plurality support -- even if this support falls short of an actual consensus -- so I suggest that the proposed 5% threshold could be a useful reference point in these talk-page discussions.I hope this helps.—S Marshall T/C 19:55, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In all elections contested by more than one candidate, should we include at least two candidates in an infobox (ie the winner, and the second place finisher)?

A - Yes.
B - No.

By way of background, this issue was discussed in an RfC on this page in 2017. The result of that RfC was There was strong consensus for A, "If only one candidate meets the threshold, then the second-place contender should be included. Since that RfC there has been discussion of this point at Talk:2012_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries and Talk:2020 Republican Party presidential primaries. At least one editor there has suggested we may wish to deviate from the consensus reached in the 2017 RfC. If we are going to do so, we may also need to set a threshold for the inclusion of second place candidates if that threshold should be less than 5% but greater than some other number.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 18:44, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Votes and discussion

  • Yes If there is more than one candidate, the second-place candidate should always be shown even when they have received less than 5% of the vote. Number 57 19:16, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
  • No If someone can't even get 5% of the vote in an election they have not earned a position in the infobox. The main 2020 national primary articles need not include the people who did not perform nationally. However for subset elections like Presidential by state (the example there being DC in 2016), it would be reasonable to include two to match the main national article. Reywas92 20:20, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment – I would say 5% is a logical cuttoff: above 5%, and 2nd place should be listed; below 5%, probably not, as that's effectively a "one-party only" result. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:21, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
    • @IJBall: Yes, the 5% threshold is a good one for 3rd place finishers (and 4th, 5th etc). My understanding is that our past consensus is that the 5% threshold does not apply to 1st or 2nd place finishers. The reasons being that summarizing the race requires showing who came first and second, avoiding the false conclusion that a race was uncontested, and showing the scale of the victory (ie how decisive the win is by virtue of the difference between first and second place). Do you think the 2017 RfC got it wrong and we should be applying a 5% threshold to second place finishers? If we should be applying a threshold, is 5% the right one for second place finishers too, or should it be lower?--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 18:57, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes I do not see any reason to deviate from the 2017 RfC. Including a second place finisher properly summarizes the race by avoiding the false impression that the winner ran unopposed and shows the scale of victory of the actual winner, and by extension the level of opposition.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 20:23, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
  • No I think it is implied when the candidate gets less than 100% of the vote that they didn’t run uncontested. The infobox is supposed to be a summary, the results box is where candidates who get less than 5% should go, as per the standard for when there is more than one major candidate. It’s just weird that on 2012 Democratic Party presidential primaries there’s a candidate in the infobox who got 1.7% when it’s obvious by reading the lead that Obama was running for re-election. Smith0124 (talk) 00:21, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Striking sockpuppet vote and comment. Humanengr (talk) 20:07, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
    • @Smith0124: Several countries have held presidential elections (or similar) where there is only one candidate on the ballot, but it is possible to cast an 'against' vote. Therefore having someone in the infobox with less than 100% of the vote does not necessarily mean than an election had more than one candidate. Number 57 10:11, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Striking sockpuppet comment. Humanengr (talk) 20:07, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes Less than 100% of the vote for a candidate does not necessarily mean that they ran contested, it could mean that some folks spoiled their ballot, only voted for down ballot candidates or wrote-in random names. I believe adding second-place finishers will make this less ambiguous. Furthermore, according to User:William S. Saturn, "The 5% threshold was always meant for third place finishers. I was part of those initial discussions and the figure actually derived from Walter Dean Burnham's assessment of what constitutes a successful third party run." In my view, Martin O'Malley gaining less than 1% of the vote in the 2016 Democratic Primaries is insignificant, the election was about Hillary vs Bernie. But when it's a lopsided incumbent renomination, i feel that the election becomes about "Who challenged the incumbent, at all, and how successful were they in doing so?". Thus, small fries like John Wolfe become more significant. Like, with the 2012 Democratic Primaries and 2020 Republican Primaries, what story is there besides "Obama vs Wolfe" or "Trump vs Weld"? I also disagree with people saying that candidates with less than 5% of the vote have not "earned" a spot in the infobox. Second place doesn't count for nothing. Coincidentally, i have silver chess trophy in my room right now. Koopinator (talk) 09:43, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
  • No, there shouldn't always be a second person in the infobox. There are some situations to include a candidate if they don't meet the 5% threshold, e.g. being nominated by a major party (in a general) or being awarded delegates (in a primary). Leaving it open for anyone opens the gates for perennial candidates who receive negligible vote totals to be included. -Shivertimbers433 (talk) 20:23, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Why should a "major party" candidate who receives "negligible vote totals" be included, and a minor party or independent with the same vote total be excluded? Arguably, it is all the more significant when a less influential party manages to overcome the more traditional "major parties" to place in second. In the US context, if a Green/Libertarian/Independent overcame the Democrat or Republican to finish in second, isn't that awfully notable, significant, and a key highlight of the race?--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 20:40, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
    • I think this discussion about significance of major parties is a digression from the focus of this Rfc. The question is if we should always have two candidates. The 5% threshold as it stands disregards party, and if someone thinks that should be altered that should be its own discussion. Smith0124 (talk) 21:11, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Striking sockpuppet comment. Humanengr (talk) 20:07, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps, it is off topic if you word it like that. However Shivertimbers433 seems to be suggesting that we move away from the 2017 consensus that the 5% threshold does not apply to second place finishers, and then apply it to some second place finishers and not others. If we are going to establish a consensus about what threshold (if any) to apply to second place finishers, that is worthy of discussion. It is also not very helpful to propose we implement a new threshold without defining it. A second discussion may be required, but before we get there Shivertimbers should have a chance to clarify exactly what they are proposing.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 21:26, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
  • I'd prefer a pretty "blanket" application on this – in a(ny) two-person race, if the 2nd place finisher gets less than 5%, they probably shouldn't be included in the infobox, regardless of party. When somebody wins the race with 95+%, that wasn't really a "two-person race" in any meaningful sense of the concept. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:31, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
    • @IJBall: I agree with this 100 percent, though to play devil’s advocate it doesn’t take into account multiple candidates getting less than 5% of the vote but adding up to more than 5%. However, even taking that into account, if a candidate gets less than 80% of the vote it’s highly unlikely another candidate didn’t get at least 5%, and I can’t think of a single example of this happening. If a candidate gets above 80% of the vote and no other candidate gets above 5%, I think your thinking still applies. Smith0124 (talk) 23:44, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Striking sockpuppet comment. Humanengr (talk) 20:07, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes. As was mentioned above, the 5% threshold is meant for third place finishers. The threshold comes from a specific standard as explained above. Using it as a threshold for second place finishers is completely arbitrary. Moreover, there's no reason to give the false impression a race was uncontested when it was contested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by William S. Saturn (talk • contribs) 08:18, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes. I think that having only one candidate in an infobox (if more than one stood) creates a strong impression that the winning candidate ran unopposed. It also helpfully immediately highlights the level of support for the opposition. Domeditrix (talk) 10:10, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes. I feel common sense says having only one candidate in an infobox is confusing. It implies the winner ran unopposed, and even when the reader is aware that's not the case, noting the winner with a percentage less than 100% immediately begs the question of who got the rest of the vote. Loki (talk) 05:19, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Note - I have placed a notice on the Politics project talk page. If there are any other projects which should be given notice, please do so and note here. Thanks--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

  • No - I agree with the nom's statement that we may need to "set a threshold for the inclusion of second place candidates .... less than 5% but greater than some other number." I'm not sure what that number should, but there should definitely be a number. Clearly if someone gets under 1% of the vote it would be WP:UNDUE to actually show the person's picture. NickCT (talk) 02:32, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Note - I have noted this discussion on Talk:2004 Republican Party presidential primaries as recent edits were relevant to this discussion.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 20:35, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

  • Yes All candidates and their picture should be included for historical accuracy. How did you come up with a 5% threshold? Are we not trying to show the record of the election regardless of winners and losers?--Tgmod (talk) 12:27, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
    • @Tgmod: This is clearly impractical as in some presidential elections there have been 40 or more candidates. Infoboxes are meant to be summaries of articles and anything beyond three or four people in the infobox makes it far too large to be an effective summary; it takes nothing away from an article's "historical accuracy" if someone who received 600 votes does not have their picture in the infobox, as long as they are still listed in the article's list of candidates and results table. Number 57 12:38, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
      • @Number 57: Well yes it would be impractical for the Presidential election, but only about 2-3 of those have nationwide ballot access the rest are write in candidates. Why not include the ones that got ballot access? Getting ballot access proves that a specified number of people want to see you on the ballot that they signed their name to it, therefore it should be included as part of the record along with the votes they received.--Tgmod (talk) 13:15, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
  • No per WP:UNDUE. The fact that the infobox doesn't say exactly 100% is enough to imply that the main candidate did not run unopposed. Regarding the question of "who got the rest of the vote" mentioned above, I don't think going with A will provide a satisfactory resolution. Suppose the main candidate got 99.2% and four other candidates split the vote 0.2% each, edging each other out by less than a hundred votes. Do all five candidates belong in the infobox? Does the second-place finisher belong in the infobox to the detriment of the other three who basically did as well as s/he did? The first option is too clunky and the second option does not adequately summarize the election any more than including just one candidate. I think the easiest solution here is simply to list the one candidate who got nearly all of the votes. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 06:42, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
    • @King of Hearts: Less than 100% of the vote for a candidate does not necessarily mean that they ran contested, it could mean that some folks spoiled their ballot, only voted for down ballot candidates or wrote-in random names. Koopinator (talk) 06:57, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
      • The problem with "Yes" is that it's making an absolute statement, whereas "No" doesn't mean we can't include a token second-place finisher if we want. I prefer the flexibility of deciding case by case what to do. In my opinion there is no significant difference between 1) 1 million votes to Candidate A, 100 to Candidate B, 1 thousand spoiled ballots; and 2) 1 million votes to Candidate A, 1 thousand spoiled ballots. At least, to the extent that we should emphasize the fact at the top of the page. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 07:06, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
  • No vote either way, but in most cases, the percentages refer to proportion from valid votes, so spoiled votes, undervotes, overvotes, null votes and anything else that's not counted for a candidate isn't included. These stats (invalid votes) aren't included in the infobox anyway. A 1-candidate race will always get 100%. Some places do have none of the above as choices, so it's essentially a 2-horse race. Other jurisdictions may include such invalid votes in the percentages, but for the most part, they don't. This is not readily apparent, though, so if someone sees one person having 98% of the vote, while no one else is with him/her, it may provoke more questions than answers. Howard the Duck (talk) 07:33, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Note - A similar issue was just addressed in a RfC which was just closed at 2020 Republican Party presidential primaries finding consensus for inclusion of Bill Weld, the second place finisher to Trump in that contest, as Weld had won one delegate. Weld also currently has <2% of the popular vote. The RfC was closed without prejudice to considering a threshold higher than winning one delegate (which had the "best" consensus). The closing comments do not address the 2017 RfC which was mentioned there.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 03:55, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

  • Again, I think that is exactly what we should be doing - deciding case by case. We should not make it a blanket requirement to always include more than one candidate, or set a hard numerical threshold. Each election is different, and a candidate who got 1% of the popular vote in one election could very well be more important than another candidate who got 2% of the popular vote in a different election that took place halfway around the world. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:03, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps. One of the problems with deciding case by case is that we end up with a lot of wasted time debating the infobox with every election. It also means that the infobox tends to change many times, during the election as editors argue the standard. And readers notice, and ask what the heck is happening on the talk page. As happened with 2020 Democratic Party presidential primaries (main article and individual state primaries) which remains unresolved, waiting for a close. The Republican one might now go to a second RfC to try to finally decide the issue. Deciding these things case by case without guidelines, also means we will end up with vastly different policies being implemented across the project depending on the editors that show up on a given day (and perhaps their prejudices for or against specific candidates). It is helpful to have a guideline because it helps reduce the influence of those biases (we agree before the results are in). I think the 5% threshold (for 3rd, 4th, 5th place finishers) has proven a useful guideline for infoboxes. The 2017 RfC guideline that second place finishers should be included is equally helpful.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 04:32, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Delete the rule / don't have a rule for this - Some elections can have fringe candidates who utterly fail in the vote but become notable through coverage and should be prominently displayed on the page. Other elections only have one notable candidate and should have only that candidate in the infobox. It depends on the election, and I don't think one size fits all here. Ikjbagl (talk) 04:53, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
There already IS a rule. Or at least an unofficial guideline. The 2017 RfC consensus created as much. The question is not whether we should create a rule, but whether we should set aside the rule/guideline that currently exists.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 18:50, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
@Darryl Kerrigan: I changed my wording to "delete the rule / don't have a rule for this" to make my intention clearer. Ikjbagl (talk) 18:59, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
  • No: there are some cases in elections outside the US where thresholds are very important in determining major/minor-candidate/party status. For example, in the UK, 5% is the threshold for a candidate retaining their deposit. One notable example is the 2016 Batley and Spen by-election, where the non-Labour vote was scattered amongst joke candidates and far-right candidates, and to include them in the infobox would be a WP:DUE violation. Sceptre (talk) 18:39, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
The English Democrat candidate in that race received 4.8% of the vote and came in second. Not sure I agree it is WP:UNDUE to include her. Actually, the fact that nearly 1/20 folks voted for a far-right party in THAT election, might be very WP:DUE to mention. That is among the most unusual of elections. It was a by-election to replace a politician who was murdered by an individual holding far-right views. None of the other main parties (ie. Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Green or UKIP) ran candidates out of respect. Notwithstanding that, the fact that nearly 1/20 folks in that riding would vote for a far-right party in the circumstances is quite notable indeed. In any event, I am not sure we should be making or unmaking rules based on extreme cases like that.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 19:05, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes: Even if the second candidate has a very low score, it gives the picture of the election. Wykx (talk) 08:51, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
  • No emphatically. I've come across instances where a candidate has received 1 million plus votes, and the next-closest candidate is a write-in with 35 votes. It would be absurd to require us to include that write-in in the infobox. There are races where candidates go virtually unchallenged, and we shouldn't present those by making it look as though there WAS a significant challenger. SecretName101 (talk) 23:03, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
    • @SecretName101: I don't think write-ins are usually considered formal candidates, and although I think there should be two candidates in the infobox, I wouldn't apply it to write-ins. Do you object to a formal second-place candidate being in the infobox if they don't receive many votes? Number 57 09:12, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
For what it is worth, as the RfC opener my thought was that "candidate" means someone that formally runs (or at least actively runs). Write-ins of fictional characters or politicians/celebrities who were not running would not qualify. That said a "write in" like Lisa Murkowski in 2010 should. While she wasn't on the ballot, she was very much "running" and won (of course).--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 15:08, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ourcampaigns.com

Hi. is used as a source on ~2700 articles. Your input on its use as a source would be appreciated at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#ourcampaigns.com. HydroniumHydroxide 04:49, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Parliamentary boundary reviews (United Kingdom)

This is largely a copy and paste from the UK politics project talk page, I know there are some interested parties in the wider psephological corner of Misplaced Pages who might want to keep their editing fingers primed for action.

Following the two aborted attempts at the Sixth Periodic Review of Westminster constituencies, the government is trying again, having today published the Parliamentary Constituencies Bill (see https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/58-01/0127/20127.pdf ). I have thrown together a very rough and ready 2021 Periodic Review of Westminster constituencies to help us all get prepared for the process which will soon be starting. The title, incidentally, is not "Seventh..." or "Eighth..." because I believe there is some uncertainty over the official designation and I thought it better to have an article in place than play "catch up". In anycase, this article can always be moved if we get any official title in the future.

When the Fifth Periodic Review of Westminster constituencies happened, and decisions made on new constituencies, I remember the existing constituency articles were sometimes flooded with editors wanting to add the new boundary details, and it sometimes got a bit rushed and confused. We need, I think, to be very careful about starting new constituency articles until we're absolutely certain about the name and boundaries.

(With regards to constituency names, I noticed during one of the "zombie" Reviews that the Scottish Commission named "North X" something Misplaced Pages already had an article for named "X North", with an existing redirect. I think we may, if this happens again, have a Project discussion about how we name articles where "Compass Point X" and "X Compass Point" converge. Again, however, this is a long way off).

Hopefully we can all get together and work on the relevant articles when the time comes. Good luck! doktorb words 04:58, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

United States presidential primary

Perhaps someone in this WikiProject can help out with WP:THQ#Authenticity. The question is related to United States presidential primary and attempts by the OP to add content to United States presidential primary#Reform proposals. The first things that come to me regarding the proposed content are WP:NOR and WP:V as well as possibly WP:SOAPBOX, but there might be a way to incorporate a trimmed down version of this content into the article in way acceptable to Misplaced Pages if reliable sources can be found in support. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:16, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

If there are sources, and looks like their would be for the proposals in the section, it sounds like a notable section (or new page if it is too large a proportion of the page) Newystats (talk) 03:12, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Talk:2017 Turkmen presidential election

A requested move at this talk page has been relisted due to a lack of consensus emerging. Additional input would be welcome. Cheers, Number 57 18:04, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Just a reminder about this – no further input has been received since I flagged this up. Cheers, Number 57 16:00, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I've commented there. Newystats (talk) 03:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Consistency in US federal legislative elections

Hello,

I was told to ask my question regarding elections on this WikiProject (I originally asked at the Teahouse).

I have noticed inconsistencies in US House of Representatives elections pages. For instance, Washington (state) only has dedicated HoR election pages until 2000, whereas New York has dedicated pages until ~1968. Is creating new articles to keep consistency justifiable? There are reliable sources available, but (subjectively) I'm not sure if it would normally meet WP:N. (For those that are wondering I am focusing on Washington)

Should I work on creating new election pages for these inconsistencies?

Thanks, Giraffer (talk) 09:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

P.S: I joined the WikiProject!

I think you are right on WP:N– personally I have always wondered why we have this article set and why they are considered noteworthy. I appreciate it's useful to have articles on the breakdown of results, but for the US it means having a breakdown article for single constituencies (i.e. states where a single representative is elected), which I do not believe is notable. Is there a higher level at which the results could be combined while still having a decent amount of information? It's also possible that the information could be split between a single national results article, and the articles on the constituencies themselves (which would detail the result at each election). Number 57 10:05, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
Presumably the state level is the highest you can collect all per district totals. If it's notable in 2020, it's notable all the way to 1776. This is similar to the countless UK by-election articles that we have, and those are even more specific, relating to just one district, as opposed to state level summaries, which can range from 1 to 50+. Howard the Duck (talk) 10:33, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
I think by-elections/special elections are different as they are standalone elections as opposed to being part of a nationwide election. Number 57 10:45, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
It's the same election to the presumably the same district, redistricting notwithstanding. Whether or not it's the only election for the day or isn't (there are days when multiple special/by-elections are held) shouldn't detract the fact that it's a legislative election. Howard the Duck (talk) 10:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
It's not the same as it is not part of the regular election cycle and the reasons for it being held are different. I seriously doubt an article on a general election in a single constituency in the UK would survive an AfD, whereas a by-election almost certainly would. Number 57 10:53, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
Giraffer isn't asking about an article a specific district on a specific election. This is about a legislative elections in a specific area.
If you think such articles shouldn't exist, you can AFD one, then we'll see it from there. Otherwise, this discussion is a waste of time. Howard the Duck (talk) 11:00, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
I know what they were asking about, and I gave the view that those that are for a single district (e.g. 2012 United States House of Representatives election in South Dakota) are probably not notable. Number 57 11:48, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
You can send that to AFD, but a state-wide election, even for one "district", should surely be notable; otherwise, gubernatorial, U.S. Senate and presidential elections from states that has at-large representations wouldn't be "notable". Howard the Duck (talk) 11:56, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
The answer to the first question is that the election pages have not yet been created. The community has largely accepted the election pages as notable (see WP:POLOUTCOMES)

Candidates who are running or unsuccessfully ran for a national legislature or other national office are not viewed as having inherent notability and are often deleted or merged into lists of campaign hopefuls, such as Ontario New Democratic Party candidates in the 1995 Ontario provincial election, or into articles detailing the specific race in question, such as 2010 United States Senate election in Nevada.

As the quote indicates, there is a recognition that the election contest is notable, even if the candidates are not. As a community, the last major AfD about a single congressional district ended as "no consensus". The community has also routinely kept specific pages for special elections. --Enos733 (talk) 15:40, 3 June 2020 (UTC)  
Interesting. While I won't support an article about election in a specific district in a place that is divided into multiple districts held during a general election, I'll support it being included in an article with elections from other districts in the place where it's from. If it's an at-large election, and it's the only election of its kind in that place, I'll support for its inclusion. That article you cited though seems to be "weird" and has 73 references so what should I know about it meeting WP:GNG? Howard the Duck (talk) 16:23, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Enos733. Go ahead and make state based articles and/or lists for each election. Newystats (talk) 03:08, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I very strongly discourage making articles just for the sake of having articles. Please do not bulk create pages unless there is demonstrated to be more information in the article than basic results already in the main page such as sourced prose discussion. There is no inherent issue with having more articles for some states than others, and pages that are empty other than redundant results tables are not a useful thing to have. Instead, it's another page to monitor and maintain, another page that could inappropriately diverge in style or material. 2004 United States House of Representatives elections in New York is just a duplicate of 2004 United States House of Representatives elections#New York but with outdated formatting. Just because elections are generally considered notable does not mean there must be separate pages for all of them when they are also covered elsewhere. Reywas92 03:57, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps consider transcluding then, as in results of Australian elections. In the Australian case, there is a page for the election as a whole in a particular year, and transcluded results in pages for each seat. Both serve a purpose depending on what the reader is interested in. Newystats (talk) 11:38, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Transclusion is always a great idea! It helps consolidate edits on specific content that is applicable to multiple articles while avoiding inconsistencies. Redirects to page sections also work before there's additional sections to include. So many of these election results articles are just raw data and prose repetition of it, and I don't feel it really helps the reader. Reywas92 21:15, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I think I'll make & work on the articles, unless there is very little to be said about the topics. @Enos733 & @Newystats, I agree with you, but I also think that @Reywas92 brings up a valid point about making articles for the sake of doing so. My editing is and will be mostly on (US) House of Representative & Senate elections, but on a state wide basis, i.e. 2020 United States House of Representatives elections in Iowa and not on a congressional-district-level, i.e. California's 39th congressional district election, 2018. State-wide election-related articles are notable the majority of the time so creating & working on new articles shouldn't be too controversial (?) but at the end of the day if someone strongly disagrees they can nominate the articles for AfD.

Thanks for your time.

Regards, Giraffer (talk) 08:48, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Costa Rica's parties meta colors

While reviewing the party coloring in the Spanish articles and adding the parties logos I realized that there's a certain inconsistency on what we can consider the party's logo "dominant" color and the meta color. I know there are a lot of different reasons for choosing a meta color not only what color is dominant (specially if the colors are repeated) however I wonder why some choices were made. So I'm proposing a revolutionary idea; to re-establish most of the meta colors to a more suited version.

For example, lets take a look at National Restoration, the first is its meta color, which is apropiate is one of the colors, but this is the logo and this is the flag. Shouldn't yellow be more appropiate? PAC uses gold which is more suited to its logo and FA uses a different tone of Yellow and can use black also.

Meta Logo Flag

Similar cases can be made abourt other parties, Christian Democratic Alliance (Costa Rica) has assigned the Indigo, but has no Indigo in it, whilst Social Christian Republican Party has the red, which is one of its color but judging by the logo that you can see in its article Dark Blue is more dominant.

I would've brought this issue to the Costa Rica Wikiproject but is not very active and hasn't have any activity since 2019 besides I think is more an electoral issue. Opinions?

Thank you. --Daioshin (talk) 17:49, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I think Maho713 or Dereck Camacho would be the best editors to comment on this, as they are regular editors of Costa Rican election articles. Number 57 18:12, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Thank you Number.
Maho and I indeed were planning to make a possible re-arenging of the color codes but never really started, it is indeed an issue that we had in mind for a long time. The color coding is complex as many parties use the same colors and Costa Rica has too many parties. So I do not oppose any discussion about it.
In the particular case of National Restoration the original color used was indeed yellow, the problem was that the unexpected protagonism it reached during the last election make it difficult to use it as it was too similar to PAC's. Not that it is impossible to have two yellow parties in the same infobox but let's just say the 2018 Costa Rican general election article would look quite different.
However there are cases were indeed change can be done more easily. I choose indigo for ADC's color as it was the closest I could find to the flag. In the case of the Republicans the idea was to make it a little different from PUSC which traditionally uses blue, however based on the logos it could be dark blue for PRSC and a lighter tone of blue for PUSC. I would like to see Maho's opinion, taking into account that in case this is decided upon a lot of graphics have to be updated and that may also imply changing other languages' wikis.
One interesting exercise would be to contact the different parties and ask their opinion, would not be binging of course we can decide by our selves by voting or similar, but could work as a input. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 21:08, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Number. for letting us know about this.
Effectively as Dereck said, he and I have talked about doing this. As of today, Costa Rica officially has 139 registered parties according to the Supreme Electoral Tribunal; even though we only have 5 million inhabitants. As an example of the usage of many colors, the love that the right-wing has towards the color blue has made it extremely complicated to make a classification of distinguishable colors. Couple that here we have a "balcanization" not of the Left, but of the Right (e.g. New Republic is an offshoot of National Restoration which is an offshoot of Costa Rican Renewal which itself is an offshoot of the now extinct National Christian Alliance / Social Christian Republican and Christian Democrat Alliance being offshoots of PUSC, etc etc).
Dereck touched a topic that is extremely important, which is the unexpected protagonism that different parties have in each election. PAC in 2006, ML in 2010, FA in 2014, PIN and later PREN in 2018 and cantonal parties in 2020. That makes it extremely difficult to mantain security towards color coordination and congruence. Also, PREN's main color used to be yellow, with their previous flag being this. Now with New Republic coming into the scene we now have 5 Christian Right parties (Costa Rican Renewal, Acces. w/o Exclusion, Christian. Dem. Alliance, National Restoration, New Republic), which, lo and behold, all use blue as their main color.
On the topic of the Social Christian parties, I'm more keen on keeping PRSC as red and PUSC as blue. My reasoning is as follows: the National Republican Party (the precursor to both PUSC and PRSC) uses the red #BA151B, and the Republicans claim to be the resurrection of said party. Actually, I'd prefer if we changed PRSC from #E30000 (which is a bright red, more suitable for the Left) to properly #BA151B or something similar. On the other hand, I prefer keeping PUSC blue in reference to them now being the main centre-right party, and in most countries said party uses blue (UK Conservative Party, France's Les Républicains, Mexico's National Action Party), and couple that with National Unification Party/National Union Party being the other precursor to PUSC and they did use blue as their main/only color.
As a side note I'd like to let you peeps know that the colors I used for the cantonal parties I made them up while making the huge results table for the 2020 municipal elections, just checking the main color used in each party's flag so color conflict is present there. But it doesn't matter much because those parties are way too small and I use the grey #CFCFCF to refer them collectively in other tables and graphs.
Hmmmm I'm not so sure about asking political parties for their input. There's a reason why Costa Rica is better known for its Supreme Electoral Tribunal than its political parties; maybe we could ask TSE? Or its Institute for Training and Studies in Democracy?
What I think should be done as well is a definite list of parties from furthest to Left to furthest to Right. That, I'm not going to lie, it's going to be hard. Costa Rica's political history is very similar to Latin America's: parties were originally created as groups supporting a specific individual, not like in Europe where they're more ideollogicaly consistent. I mean, not for nothing two of the main ideologies of this country are "Figuerismo" (José Figueres Ferrer) and "Calderonismo" (Rafael Ángel Calderón Guardia)(even though both individuals have been dead for a considerable amount of years). And don't even get me started on the First Republic era with Echandismo, Jimenismo, Acostismo, Volismo, "a la tica Communism", etc etc. But I digress. Putting each party in a line could also help on deciding colors, for example, Citizens' Action and Broad Front are both yellow and they tend to be next to each other ideologically.
In case you peeps want to check, this is the list of all registered parties. There's also a list of parties in the process of being registered. As a sidenote, there are parties that are registered but haven't participated in a while (National Union) or at all (Social and Democratic Centre)
I would also like to call DrRandomFactor for help. He helped me a lot when I started making maps (which, I should work more on that on this site) and gave me ideas regarding color usage.
--Maho713 (talk) 01:29, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
I agree with all said by Maho, and yes it is interesting that we have a balcanization of the Right not of the Left which is pretty much estable having only two parties (FA and PT unless you count PAC which is quite centrist). On the other hand for further complication the parties that Maho mentions that appear as registered, they will appear as such for ever unless the Electoral Law is reform as you can see here. It seems that according to the TSE the only legal way to dissolve a political party is if its willingly takes part in elections and has less that 3000 votes. Not participing in elections and just having a ghostly existence does not qualify for dissolution. Most of those parties are by all effects dissolved; for example Avance Nacional, Todos, Centro Democrático Social, and the like, their leaders already moved to other parties (Rolando Araya-PLN, José Manuel Echandi-PUSC, Rodolfo Méndez Mata-PAC), they don't make assemblies since several elections ago etcétera, they are by all effects dead, but unless they take part in elections they won't get dissolve, that mean someone has to make all the cantonal, provincial and national assemblies just to take part in elections to be dissolved, no one is going to take that effort. Those parties will be forever in some sorte of eternal limbo, once a party is created in Costa Rica it can't be uncreated lol. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 01:39, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
OK I see now that I was actually wrong and missjudge the issue, it seems that the color selection is logical and I should've checked previous flags of the parties indeed. My apologies to Maho713 and Dereck Camacho. --Daioshin (talk) 02:01, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
PD; regarding what Maho713 mentions of "for example, Citizens' Action and Broad Front are both yellow and they tend to be next to each other ideologically" the only possible solution I can think of (because indeed sometimes the graphics in the legislative archs look too similar) is to swicht the color of one of both by the other color, for example PAC with red and FA with black. On this however PAC is older so we can use the grandfather clause and say that is the newest party the one that should be changed, besides red is already use for many relevant parties like Movimiento Libertario and Republican Party, and PAC is more clearly ID on media with gold. --Daioshin (talk) 02:06, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
The issue regarding PAC's position in the political spectrum is quite curious, the Left accuses it of being neoliberal and elitist while the Right acusses it of the complete opposite (even coming with the creative pejorative term of "PACommunism" that is thrown at them whenever they ever so slightly turn to the centre-left). Then again, PAC was created by disgruntled members of both PLN and PUSC, with later additions of the now extinct Democratic Force (though many later defected to Broad Front). What Dereck mentions of the inability to deregister parties is also a huge complication, Libertarian Movement will linger in limbo for the foreseeable future as liberals move to United We Can, Liberal Progressive, PUSC and the probably-will-be-created Liberal Union. It's amazing how, despite having one of the most solid electoral systems in the world, we have huge flaws like that hahaha. At least we don't have ruthless systems like Peru's where a party is forcefully disbanded if it doesn't participate in each election and obtains at least 4% of the vote in all ballots.
And Daioshin there's nothing to apologize for hahahaha. Your comment helps a lot to see the perception of political parties and electoral issues in the eyes of people alien to the matter. Even many Costa Ricans are completely lost in these issues, Dereck and I are a deviation of the standard. So what may seem logical and simple to understand to us won't necessarily be like that for other people. So your input really helps in knowing that we should in one way or another change our display of information so it's easier to understand. For example, we work a lot on elections and the Legislative Assembly, but I know that there's a lot of work to do when it comes to articles regarding our Public Administration (which is, immensely huge, I'm talking 300+ public institutions) and other institutions like the General Comptroller, General Prosecutor, General Procurator and Ombudsman. That's precisely why I've started working on covering local elections, our municipal governments need better articles. So in synthesis, you don't have to apologize, understanding the Costa Rican State is a complicated thing.
Maho713 (talk) 04:52, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
I agree with Maho713, now Daioshin suggest something interesting, to switch colors of PAC or FA due to both using a tone of yellow and be side be side in most arch parliamentary graphics due to be center-left and left respectively. What do you think?
I think that changing PAC for red is a no no. Red is already use in many parties like ML and PRSC, that would mean changing FA to black. Any thoughts? --Dereck Camacho (talk) 15:00, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
No, on second thoughts I think FA's yellow tone is different enough, besides a black tone would be too similar to PIN's tone (although in different parts of the arch still would be confusing). --Daioshin (talk) 05:35, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Fixing damage to election and other political pages by a now-blocked sockpuppet

From what I have gleaned so far, there is reason to suspect the now-blocked Smith0124 had edited many election pages in an improper manner — largely, from my understanding, to remove candidates from infoboxes. The edits were to over 100 2020 election and comments on over 60 2020 election talk pages; and several dozen edits/comments other politician/political article/talk pages. The damage to Template talk:2020 Democratic Party presidential primaries and Template:2020 Democratic Party presidential primaries is in the process of being contained.

But the others need to be addressed. If anyone here is interested, I can provide the list of pages. Humanengr (talk) 07:01, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I have struck through Smith0124's vote and comments on this page. Is no one interested in addressing this malady? Humanengr (talk) 20:07, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Here is the list I've culled from edits so far, grouped ~topically. Please strike through items as you address them. (Note: this list might be enlarged as I research further.)
  • UPDATE: The sockpuppet is back and been reported. I have reverted the presidential election edits. The others of the new batch of ~40 are gubernatorial races.
Prior to turning to political pages, this editor (as Smith0124 and Peterjack1) had previously largely edited highway pages. AFAICS, the common pattern seems to be declaring as fact a community standard where none had been established or violating one where it had been. (For an odd example of the latter in the highway category see this where he insistently violated this.) Humanengr (talk) 05:55, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Again, please strike through items as you address them. Humanengr (talk) 22:39, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Templates for deletion

See

Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 July 2#Template:National Democratic Party (Bangladesh)/meta/shortname
Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 July 2#Template:Zaker Party/meta/color
Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 July 2#Template:Zaker Party/meta/shortname
Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 July 2#Template:Zaker Party/meta/shortname
which have been declared pointless. Thincat (talk) 03:56, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Ongoing Discussion at 2016 United States presidential election in the District of Columbia

There is an ongoing discussion at Talk:2016 United States presidential election in the District of Columbia#GamerKiller2347's Opinion on Trump in the Infobox about the inclusion of Donald Trump in the infobox. GamerKiller2347 (talk) 00:19, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

How should we present elections with runoffs in infoboxes?

1996 Russian presidential election
← 1991 16 June 1996 (first round)
3 July 1996 (second round)		 2000 →
Opinion polls
Turnout69.7% Decrease 5 pp (first round)
68.8% Decrease 0.9 pp (second round)
 
Nominee Boris Yeltsin Gennady Zyuganov Alexander Lebed
Party Independent CPRF Congress of Russian Communities
Home state Moscow Moscow Krasnoyarsk Krai
First-round vote 26,665,495 24,211,686 10,974,736
First-round percentage 35.8% 32.5% 14.7%
Second-round vote 40,203,948 30,102,288
Second-round percentage 54.4% 40.7%
 
Nominee Grigory Yavlinsky Vladimir Zhirinovsky
Party Yabloko LDPR
Home state Moscow Moscow
First-round vote 5,550,752 4,311,479
First-round percentage 7.4% 5.8%
First-round results

Second-round results
  Regions in which Boris Yeltsin won a plurality   Regions in which Gennady Zyuganov won a plurality
President before election

Boris Yeltsin
Independent

Elected President

Boris Yeltsin
Independent

1996 Russian presidential election
← 1991 16 June 1996 (first round)
3 July 1996 (second round)		 2000 →
Opinion polls
Turnout69.7% Decrease 5 pp (first round)
68.8% Decrease 0.9 pp (second round)
 
Nominee Boris Yeltsin Gennady Zyuganov
Party Independent CPRF
Home state Moscow Moscow
Popular vote 40,203,948 30,102,288
Percentage 54.4% 40.7%
  Regions in which Boris Yeltsin won a plurality of the second-round vote   Regions in which Gennady Zyuganov won a plurality of the second-round vote
President before election

Boris Yeltsin
Independent

Elected President

Boris Yeltsin
Independent

We currently seem to have a disjointed policy, where we allow election infoboxes for mayoral elections with runoffs to include results information about both rounds, but national elections seem to exclude the first round. Using the 1996 Russian presidential election as an example, should infoboxes for elections with runoffs look more like the first example (including results information about both rounds of the election) or the second example (including only results information about the second round).

Note, that we'd probably edit the infobox template to better accommodate two-round elections (or create a new secondary infobox template to do that job) if we change our rules, so the first example looks sloppier here than it would if we'd implement this change.

For additional context, an example of a mayoral election that currently includes both rounds in its election box is the 2019 Chicago mayoral election.

SecretName101 (talk) 16:15, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

As I think is quite clearly displayed in the two examples to the right, trying to fit in both the first and second rounds candidates/results is a bit of a mess and makes the infobox far too long (it is over two screens in height on my laptop). This is probably the main reason for the long-standing consensus that infoboxes of presidential elections that go to a second round should only have the second round candidates/results. I would imagine the discrepancy with mayoral has arisen because different sets of editors edit national elections and subnational election articles.
I don't really see a way of incorporating first round results into {{Infobox election}} that won't make it too large or disjointed (with various gaps). The only solution I could offer would be some kind of wholescale redesign/reorganisation where {{Infobox election}} is reformatted to operate in the same way that the fr.wiki infobox does (see example here). This style avoids empty spaces where you have no second round figures for first round candidates or the empty place in the bottom left when you have five or eight candidates. Personally I think any shift should also encompass a switch to using {{Infobox election}} only for single-candidate elections (presidents, mayors etc) and {{Infobox legislative election}} for parliamentary elections. Number 57 16:54, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
At least for U.S. elections, a non-partisan election (like the majority of mayoral races) or a jungle primary where all candidates are competing against each other in both rounds the samples you're showing can make sense. In other races where there are separate party primaries, however, it doesn't work. The primaries are different races and elections from the general election. Carter (talk) 17:00, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I'd propose creating a new template called something like "infobox election two rounds" that would act as an alternative to infobox election for use on elections with two rounds. Additionally, I'd propose we find a way that such an infobox allow Template:Switch to work within it in such a way that two maps can be included (one for each round) in a more compacted style). And for clarity, partisan primaries are not to be considered a "round" of an election, they are a nomination contest, not a general election contest. SecretName101 (talk) 18:27, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
As for the comments about the largeness of a more inclusive an infobox with both rounds, sure they can be larger than one with a single round, but I'd argue excluding the first round sacrifices significant substance in the presentation simply for the sake of style. SecretName101 (talk) 18:32, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I strongly oppose the creation of another infobox. If any changes are agreed, they should be to the existing infobox. I am also not convinced having two maps is a good idea – it will be another factor making the infobox too large. Maps (such as that of the first round results) can be placed elsewhere in the article, such as alongside the results table. Number 57 18:35, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Of course, there don't need to be two maps in the infobox, we can work that concern out subsequently. The biggest issue at hand is whether the results data from the first round belongs in the infobox. SecretName101 (talk) 18:47, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
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